December 15, 2023 • 33 mins
Do you think you can beat a “human lie detector”?? Jana and her Queendom are talking to Annie Sarnblad who is an expert at finding clues that someone is lying.
She explains her process and reminds us that sometimes you can tell that someone is being dishonest, but you don’t know why….
Plus, we play a game of “Two Truths and a Lie” and a MAJOR secret gets revealed!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All right, so this week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Annie
sarnblad On. She is a human light detector, so she
is an expert in reading facial expressions as well as
a Steem strategic advisor. Who I'm so excited, I am
so nervous. Do you believe in light detectors?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Do you Nope?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Actually, can I change my answer because I think I
remember a story? No, no, no, listen, I've known.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Why are you pointing at me?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I've known two people that passed the lie detector test personally,
know them that both lied. So I just don't know
if I try personal, pretty personal, but I will say this,
Kat is the most buttoned up, non commenting person today.
It's cracking me up. But we had just a view
of just her face with this entire time. Let me
(01:01):
just say this, as Catherine's got my gruntee little son
over there, I think I would trust the facial expressions
over the other ones. So that's why I'm really interested
to talk to her. Good point because it's actually easy
to how do I say this? You can pass a
lie detected chest by the breathing, so if they ask you,
(01:24):
it's taken your breath. So it's like if you go
if you know, yeah, like is your name Kristen, Yes,
if you're to ask it, so you have to control
your breathing for all the answers. Little Jana Panther.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
One people to pass a detector does and this is
why they're not admissible in court.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
But I think with facials, I again I would want
to know. That's why I'm so excited talk to her
because I'm like, I would believe that over anything else,
because there there's got to be a look or something.
There is something like a look to the left or something. Well,
let's get her on. And you're the actress, so this
is going to be a real test, a testimony to
your craft. And we got to truth and a lie
(02:06):
and we're going to see if she can decode it.
And one of mine is a speculation that you guys
might not know, okay, what there might be something you
don't know? Cat cat considering it. I find out today.
So we'll see.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Annie Annie hie.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Nice to see you all.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Nice to see.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
What is your last name? I know your last name,
but what is the origin.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's in English.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Okay, I totally did say that wrong. Then yeah, sartn
blood okay, and then what is it?
Speaker 4 (02:41):
What is that if you want to say in Swedish?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's Swedish? Okay, all right, I love that.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Are you?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Did you grow up there or did you grow up here?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
It's my ex husband's name, but my maiden name is
actually Norwegian Solberg. Okay, it's so bye. So everybody. When
I moved to Sweden as a sixteen year old exchange student,
that was my version of running away from home. Everybody
thought I was Swedish. Sod help learn the language quickly
because people would just talk to me in Swedish.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And they see your ex husband because you saw a
facial expression that you didn't like.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
No, No, Unfortunately, I just made bad choices.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Wow, we've all been there.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
He's a nice person. It wasn't a good fit and
I had a lot of traum in my childhood, so
I chose something that felt very safe and predictable.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
And then I don't know if anybody has wrapped up
my life in a sentence quite as fast as you
just did. But so jinks, Annie, Yeah, buy me a coke,
that's right. But I will say this, So I love
that you went straight too. He's a good person. You
had your stuff, Like, I love that aspect of it.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
You're not trying to be Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
He's because I've had I've dated other people that aren't
good people.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
But difference also jinks. Okay, Annie, do you just want
to come sit down with us because.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
I feel I really would like to, Like, I feel
like I just snuggle right there in the middle of
the sofa.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Who is this right now? He's three and a half
weeks old? So this is my son Jack Geez. I
always collim Jason Roman. I either call him the dog.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Or welcome to having three children, whichever kids you were Roman.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Yep, I've got three too, and I had I had
mine in just over three and a half years, so
I still get them confused.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So that's a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
That's the thing all day every day.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, I mean I do it probably every day.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Because I started to think, I'm like, maybe I should
change his name because I can't I keep them.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
It's just fine, You're just in like it's I mean,
hormones and all the things.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Sure that was weird?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Is I have all l's. I have three kids, they're
all l's. And I don't confuse them, but I confuse
the boy like my husband and my son's name.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I was just about to say that I do that
Nick and Caiden are the same person.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, well sometimes I get him mixed up with the
dog too, Like that's not popular.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Sometimes the behaviors are somewhat similar, and it's warranted if
I'm honest. Between the eighty five year old. Yeah, okay,
So I have a question. We started briefly to chatted
about this. Do you believe it that lie detectors, the
ones that go on your chest, are those one hundred
percent accurate?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I actually have no idea. It's a great question, but
those are dealing with like heart rate and gosha. I
don't even really know how to answer that. It's not
something that's particularly interesting to me because the machinery detects
changes and breathing and heart rate and all these like
(05:41):
physiological reactions, and so a really good spy can create
an alternative reality, just like I mean, you know about this.
You're an actress, so like when you're in that scene,
you're living it, right if you're doing it, well, you're
there emotionally, yeah, and you're in it, and so really
(06:02):
good spy creates two parallel lines of thought, and it
can put themselves into like the emotional the like fantasy life,
so like did you did you murder her? And like
in Vegas and the like. If you can convince yourself
that I was on a beach in Akapolco, then you
were on a beach in a c Polco and you
could in theory trump the machine.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Right because yeah, okay, that makes yes.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
That expressions that actually precede the thought process.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So yeah, what's that, Like, what's the first micro expression
that you would go That person is lying?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So I'm looking for the disconnect. So the facial expression
and the words don't match. So somebody, I mean, it's
as simple as somebody saying I did not do that
while they're nodding like that's our body leaking and that's
the knot isn't really a micro expression, and that's and
the knot is also not universal. It depends. That's Western society.
(06:58):
But if I say, I'm so happy to be on
your podcast and I'm showing the growl, I'm showing the
no face, that the facial expression of disgust, there's something
off there. I'm not actually feeling what I'm saying that
I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Okay, I am so nervous right now and I think
it I am the world's worst liar. Like I have
sweaty hands. I feel like I am being busted right
now and there's literally nothing. I've done nothing. But do
you know what's so funny? Is I really wish she
would say? And that's usually the people that lie once
say that like I would never do that.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I would.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I'm just no, Like, I'm just right. I'm a chronic
overs like I'm a chronic oversharer, so like I won't
I can't even tell you that I had something that
I didn't have for lunch.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
No manny talk to us about that.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Everybody wants to say to me. They're like, oh, you
must be awesome and poker, and I'm like no. The
reason that I'm obsessed with this has to do with
childhood that had a fair amount of trauma in it,
and the people that would that we're supposed to be trustworthy,
that lied to me all the time, and my obsession
with figuring out who I could rely on and who
(08:11):
was who was safe and who was trustworthy. And so
I'm a terrible liar. I really don't like lying, and
I don't like it when people lie to me. I mean,
the obsession comes from a need to figure out who
is it's less. My best friend always says, you're not
a lie detector, You're a truth detector. Like you don't
really care who lies to you. You want to figure
(08:32):
out who tells you the truth.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So has this been since childhood that you've had this
passion and then does it go into like learning the
traits professionally all of the thing.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah, So that the childhood piece is my why, you know,
why I got into it and why it was such
an obsession with me. And then the fact that I
was gaslightd so much about what I saw and what
I lived through, you know, that didn't happen a week
later that was no longer true, and I was told
(09:02):
to you know, family loyalty was very, very you know,
it was a big focus, and so I really ran
away and got away as early as I could. I
was fourteen years old when I started planning. You know,
I figured out that you could be an exchange student,
that you could basically go and live with another family,
and so that became my obsession, and I how I
(09:27):
got out and I was gone. I mean, it came
back for vacations and that kind of thing, but I
was It was almost twenty five years that I was
outside of the US, and I've lived in nine different countries.
So I spent much of my time learning languages. I
have a master's in anthropology, and I spent like this focus.
I was obsessed with learning languages through immersion. So and
(09:48):
I wasn't that great learning languages. So I literally have
spent years in my life not understanding what people are saying.
And then I got certified in what's called facial action
coding and learned to numerically code the different muscle combinations
in human expression. But I'm not that good at that
(10:09):
advanced mathematical coding, so I simplified the entire field to
be able to teach my kids.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Well, it's so interesting. So I grew up in a
similar situation and was basically taught to lie my whole
childhood and then to lie like told to lie, tell
your grandparents this, tell so and so.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
This, so.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Then I would have a natural as I got older,
in natural inkland the smallest thing to just lie. And
then I got to a point where I'm like, hated
that is not cat by the way, but I hated lying.
So it's still a very I get very hurt, very
easily if I know someone's lying, and it is a
(10:50):
huge I take it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So personal too. And I'm going through a phase of
my son right now. He's five, and he is the
sweetest liar, and it's like a I can tell, like
I don't want to be mean about it, but I
can feel it hit somewhere in my body where I'm like,
you could be a million things in life, but don't
(11:12):
ever be a liar to me.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Well, I mean, we carry our own troublem And isn't
that so interesting with children that they hold this mirror
up to us where we not only have to figure
out what we want to do differently. I mean, you know,
even when you grow up in an ideal situation at home,
you want to figure out, like what what do I
want to do differently and what do I want to
do the same as my parents, and they really reflect back.
(11:39):
But for me, one of the hardest things is figuring
out how to kind of meet it in the middle
and not just respond from my trauma all the time,
but grow through it and heal and say that like, Okay,
a five year old lie is pretty normal and you
can write and you don't want to shame them, but
you also want to talk about how that makes you
(12:00):
feel without bringing all the druma. I mean I remember
my oldest looking at me at one point and saying,
not everything has to be a life lessen mom.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's kind of how I feel though, Like I feel
like I'm I feel like I'm doing that. Like I'm like,
if it starts now, then he's gonna spiral and he's
gonna you know, and I'm like, really, he's just five
and he's just got a big imagination.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yeah, but you should still tell him what you're feeling
and you know, but in age appropriate words.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
But or maybe we just FaceTime miss Annie and she
can tell me what's really like.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Now.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Have you dealt with that too, with the kid aspect.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, I mean five is a very normal age for
them to start doing that. We just have, like I
have to find ways with my older kids to be like,
as long as you tell me the truth, as long
as you're honest with me, we can deal with anything.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Like what we have.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
We just very much deal with that. But like I
haven't have a hard time in my marriage because I'm like,
you lied, and he'll be like I said, it was blue,
not green. I mean, it'll be the smallest thing, and
he's like, you've got to let that go, like and
it can get hard. So I'm trying to be better
about it because it's not It's also not that black
and white to me. It's like a Lia's Eliza, lie,
you omitted this and you lied to me, you know,
(13:08):
And so I have to I have to bring myself
back from that.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
And I as childhood trauma on the couch.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And not great in these days.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
It's really everybody that has childhood trauma exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think it's just because we're all talking about it finally.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
But I also don't think I would want to be
able to do what she can do.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Is there error in what you do as well? Like
when you so for example, like my fiance is the
most loving, i mean sweet human being, but he's he's
more he's he's Scottish, he's a little bit more harsher
on his expressions. He's more like, I know he loves me.
But I think when maybe some people that might see
(14:03):
something and be like, oh well, he's not doesn't look
very happy or something, and I'm like, he's right. So
that that piece, I'm like, well, you don't also know
you know X, Y and Z.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
So I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Is there a piece of it where it's like it's
not all about just the facial I guess.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Okay, So how can I have a dirty mouth? Like
how sure? Yeah, okay. So I can always tell the emotion.
I can tell what somebody is feeling clear as day.
I cannot tell what they are thinking. I can't tell
the why. But the micro expressions when you get to
the level that I'm at, and my kids have been
(14:42):
trained by me, so we never missed the micro expression.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And that's the nod the right.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
So so like this is the full facial expression of disgust.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So that yeah, she's kind of like clenching her teeth
a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
We're actually trained out of it as as grown ups,
and the micro expression that leaks that, you know, we're
trained out of these micro expressions by or the macro expressions,
the long, big facial expressions out from our parents because
it's not socially acceptable to be like, oh, you want
me to go over to your house? Oh, right. We
you know we can't, we can't go through life in
(15:22):
a socially acceptable way. But the micro expressions precede the
thought process and they leak all day long. So it's like, oh,
you want me to do this deal with you. That
twitch is always there, so I can see the exact
moment and the exact feelings, sometimes even before the person
feeling it has time to process their emotions. However, I
(15:42):
don't know why, Like if I ask you to meet
me for lunch next week and you showed disgust, which
I call the no face, that little twitch. I don't
know if it's because you're busy. I don't know if
it's because you don't like me. I don't know if
it's because you have, like, you know, some visitor, or
because you really you wanted to read my book before
(16:03):
you continued working with me, and you hadn't had a chance.
I mean, there's all these scenarios. So I when I
speak frankly, I say, it's as universal as a man
with an erection. If you set a naked man with
an erection, he is aroused. I don't know if he's
thinking about me.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
But I know that's a different podcast altogether.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Right, that's a different podcast. But if he's standing there
going like I'm not aroused, you're going, well, yes you are,
because there's a change in blood flow and muscle movement
in response to that arousal.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Will my bowtox throw you off?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
On my and the level that I work with, because
it's almost, like I explain it, like if you do
a five hundred puzzle piece puzzle and it's sailboats, and
then you take out a bunch of the puzzle pieces,
I can still see it's just it's still boats. So
that's sort of a simplified way of saying with every expression,
there's a top piece and a bottom piece. And so,
for example, a genuine smile, what happens has nothing to
(17:04):
do with the mouth. If we're genuinely feeling joy, our
cheeks pop up and that makes this skin right here
under our eyes bold it out, and we get these
little smile bags. So if I'm if I'm masked, you
can still see that regardless if you see my mouth
or not.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I am so fascinated by you. So could we do
Can we do a little game before we talk about
your book?
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Can we do two truths and can we do two
truths and a lie?
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Sure, it might go first. It might be this is
a little tricky because people get so joyful about lying
and situations.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I am not. You're not joyful, and I want you
to go first.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
So shame. But you're gonna show like a little bit
of delight. So okay, we go, let's try it.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Okay, don't you go first? No, you go first? No,
Catherine got and I vote?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, okay, okay, okay, let me get my questions. Okay,
So two truths and a lie? Ready, and I would
have another kid I got wrongfully sued last year.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Alan and I are already married.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
So that was dead panned. But you showed, you showed
mirth that thought we're already married.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
What does mirth mean?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
It just means like tricky business.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That should actually be the name of this podcast, dream business.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
So I don't know because you said it's so fast,
and then you were like, hey.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
If you're already married, I'm gonna lose my mind.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I mean, I do have an extra band on my
hand that no one's asked about. Can you say I
don't know which one? Sure, I'll say him again. I
would have another kid, I got wrongfully sued last year.
Alan and I are already married an actress.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
So the wrongfully sued last year, you showed a little disgust.
So I'm guessing that you were wrongfully sued.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Catherine, Well, I know you were wrongfully so say true true,
Yeah the other two I'm questioning myself over here when
I'm worried about the answer on both.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
It's fun, like it is a fun game. The really
interesting thing for me is that when people are in
a high stake situation, because they'll often show shame. And
so what I look for in somebody exhibiting shines of
being a sociopath, for example, is whether or not they
show shame when they're lying, and whether or not they
(19:42):
show empathy when someone else gets hurt. We should pucker
our chin. That's a crucial piece of empathy. So if
you're telling you about something that's really hard, like if
you go into detail about being wrongfully sued, I'm gonna
pucker my chin because that's not fair. I'm feeling your
pain with you. So if somebody doesn't ever show that,
and you're supposed to be emotionally attached, so like if
(20:04):
you're dating somebody and you're trying to figure out, Okay,
I know this guy's attracted to me, but does he
actually care about my feelings? You know, whenever you talk
about something that's emotionally, physically, or financially difficult for you,
he should be puckering and mirroring that chin. That's basically
saying I'm feeling this feeling with you.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And like, if you were to ask a partner are
you cheating on me? What would be their face of lie?
I mean, this is why we're best friend.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
But so I do get this question sometimes. Yeah, this
is so if he says no, one nods. That's a
problem anytime somebody says again, we're talking about the US, Canada, Mexico,
Western Europe. Like if you get over to Sri Lanka
and India, there's different head movements. So that is a
cultural thing. But in our culture. I grew up in
(20:52):
the US too, this means yes and this means no.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So he's like, we say that again. This so shaking
your head means shaking your head.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
No means so I've never done that, and absolutely I'll
be there for you. That matches, right, But if you're
saying I'm never I would never cheat on you. That's
a problem.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, that made me feel weird when you did that.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Actually it feels itchy, right. You always trust your gut,
even if you can't dissect it or you don't know
the science behind it. There's a reason that our gut
is telling us. And so what I'm trying to do
is help women put the words, put the science on
why their gut is telling them certain things.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So then what else with the head nod with the
the cheating question.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
So my son came to me and said to me,
he's eighteen and he was a few months ago and
he said maybe. It was last year he said, I
want to go out on Saturday night? Can I go
out to this party? And I was like maybe? And
he goes, thanks, because all my kids are trained, and
I go I said maybe, and he goes yeah. But
when you say maybe, and you know that's always you're
always end up saying yes because you're thinking yes. And
(21:57):
when you say maybe and you shake your head, that
means you're not You're gonna say no. You always say
no when you shake your head.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So have you outsmarted yourself raising these little idea? I
know I'm kind of feeling it for you. I'm glad
there's more of you in the world. But then I'm
also like, oh, kind of sucks to be the mom.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
K of when your kids can see you're attracted to
somebody because your pupils dilate. That sucks. You're like, oh,
you think he's hot.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I'm like, oh, no, awkward when it's like mister Smith
and math teacher.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Yeah, so wait, have we figured out you're lying yet?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
It's very important I give one truth in one lie.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
No, I want to know. I want to know.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
No, I'm not doing that well.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I just was thinking. I get a lot of comments
on this podcast. They'll post a little bit of the
of like the video of this podcast sometimes in to
tease the episode, and people write to me all the
time they're like, we wish we had a full video
of your expressions because I feel like I'm not good
at hiding it. And then I feel like, sometimes I
look at me, it looks like I'm not having any fun,
(23:19):
but I'm so always.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
My face always looks like I'm mad.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
But okay, so that is that like when we furrow
our brow. So even if you've got botox and you
think that that actually impedes these muscles from ferr and
these are thinking muscles, are concentrating muscles, and we like
tend to bring this all down. And it's almost like
kick starts the process of thinking of like problem solving,
and there's a piece of problem solving both in problem
(23:45):
solving and in anger. But people mistakenly think this sort
of stern look is necessary necessarily anger, and it's only
anger if the mouth is tight.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
And that's what I feel like I am on here.
It's usually when I'm listening and I really thinking about
what you're saying. I look miserable, but I'm truly thinking.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, like I look like I have reasting beef.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And Janna's like, why are you looking at me like that?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Are we good?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (24:12):
It doesn't look friendly because our brains processed as part
of anger. And that's correct, and it's the part of anger.
But anger is always going to have like whether the
mouth is shut or open, it's always it clenches everything,
That's what it's like. It clenches our shoulders or clenches
our fists so that we are preparing to fight.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I think there's a good piece of what you just
said too about it's yes, the expression like if you
were to ask someone okay, have you cheated or or
did you cheat on me? Your your your gut is
also asking that question too, right, So I think there's
such a good piece with it. Yeah, exactly, like even
having that conversation, even asking that's a huge, like you said,
(24:54):
huge problem. So yeah, I think that's the first thing
and going okay, if you're asking that, right, you're is
telling you something that's probably not.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Good, probably not a good sign.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
If you have to ask, I would totally I would
totally agree. And so I'm always looking at whether or
not the facial expressions match the words. So somebody who
says I'm really happy for you, that's a problem showing disgusting,
that's a problem. You know I got that, I got
that great promotion, or I just had a baby. You know,
people should be like, you know, yay, congratulations. They should
(25:25):
be lifting up their cheeks. That's joy. Their body language
and everything should be aligned. If something feels off, it's
because it's your primitive brain processing that something's wrong. Those
are your survival skills kicking in.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
We have a girl's night coming up, and it's gonna
be funny that there's three of us pseudo trained. But
also you're a great actress, as we saw in at
my fortieth birthday party. So when I'm being funny, not
when I'm being serious, one truth, one lie, one truth,
one lie. Yep, I probably have the most botox of
anyone on this couch. So this is the ultimate test. Annie. Okay,
(26:04):
I've ridden a camel. Yeah, I've been strapped to a
semi going fifty five miles an hour. I kind of
got to say the truth is the fifty five miles
an hour. I'm like, oh my god, that's because that's
so crazy.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
I cannot tell. I literally can't tell.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Is this when I give a shout out to my
injector or because or is it that I've put myself
in two places in my brain?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
I don't know. I mean, i'd like, I literally just
I can't tell.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I've never ridden a camel.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I was saying, you're strapped to a on the show, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
My husband had to help me with this, which makes
me a little nervous actually, because I'm I've always sucked
notoriously at two truths and a why even in school
and everything, Because I just I don't know why there's
something like weird in my brain that happens that anyways, it's.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
A weird game. And what I usually get people will
do this to me at cocktail parties are at it
and they'll be like, Okay, I'm gonna like it.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I'm they show to light.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Which is what we call that facial expression of like
of trickery, like I'm going to get you on. But
now it's a game, and that's what's usually off. What
was kind of interesting and you say both of those
things is you just kind of deadpanned the straight up,
like like just send them boats straight out without much emotion.
(27:20):
But that when you said I've never ridden a camel,
you tucked your you touched one corner of your lips
into the into the cheek, and that's what we call
a knowing smile. So that's like, I know, I know
about this.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So you have a book out that's called Diary of
a Human Light Detector Facial Expressions and Love, Lust and Lies.
What is the biggest takeaway that you that will help
people that read this book? And then what your biggest like,
what was your favorite chapter in it?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
So we can promote the book.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
So the biggest takeaway is that these are things that
we kind of sort of already know. The pieces that
I'm teaching for a lot of us women. When I
hit my audience right, people are reading the pieces about
my life and then I'm dissecting them and teaching the
facial expressions using my life's stories. And when I'm hitting
(28:17):
my audience right, they're they're looking at these they're reading this,
They're going, yes, that's true, and I know this facial
expression and I know Barack Obama always makes the facial
expression of suppression.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I would love to see you in politics.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Right, Yeah, there's that would be a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
But there's certain peace to thy coming, right.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
That's the people that certain people make and when we
when I break it down and I show it, or
that Mona Lisa smile of kind of like yeah, that
half one lopside and smile like I know about that,
that sort of secret I know something you don't know.
Or the dilation of the pupil, which which is so
useful in love and dating to see if somebody's really
(29:00):
feeling aroused in the moment. They're people's swell during the
conversation and you're like, oh, my god, I have this
person in the palm of my hands. They're really interested,
they want me right now. Those pieces are so juicy
and so interesting, and I think for a lot of women,
I'm putting words on things that they intuitively have always
(29:22):
known because I'm describing the universal language of our species,
which is biologically hardwired into us. And I think they're men.
I mean, I have male friends that I work with
that I really enjoy intellectually, and they've said I can't
get through ten pages, like there's too many feelings.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Yeah, Oh, I'm so excited. I'm really excited. I'm just
going to leave it on the nightstand. I think it
speaks for itself.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I like peaks about love and lust. That's my favorite.
Those pieces. I think I will endlessly be interested in
knowing if someone that I have strong feelings for me
is one attracted to me too emotionally attached to me?
Does he want me? And does he love me? I
think are such universal questions.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yes, and that's an ad to cart for everyone. So
thank you any so much for coming on the show.
Would love to have you back on. You're so sweet.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Thank you nice Kat.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
We didn't get to you, but we're also your truth
and I just don't know. We have to lie.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
I need to know if you're having another baby or
you're married. This is so important.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I can guess what you say, what you think the lie?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You and I are both walking out?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
True?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I know, but also are you really thinking about having
another baby?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I mean, I think they're both lies. I'm hoping, but one.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I'm not hoping.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I'm babies.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Right, We're down to the final truth.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Done, dun dun well. The truth is I would have
another kid.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Okay, I'm not going to, but you would, but I would, okay,
And this is just the present with the three birthstones.
And I know I was like, I don't remember your
pupils when you told me about the band.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
When I asked, oh my gosh, okay, so mine mine
are stupid?
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Okay, I be ready ye true, we're gonna do. I'm
gonna okay, we're going to beat the LA texture test.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I pete on myself in Walmart, ready.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
On myself and can't take this rid.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I might just on thee.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I pee on myself in the car writer line, who
knew you were the number one girl? Okay?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
So we put on myself.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
This is why I said, no, you pooped on your
self Ware at work.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I'm gonna go with I'm gonna say to embarrassing. I'm
gonna say that.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I'm gonna say the lie is that she peed on
herself in Walmart.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
I don't think you want you go to Walmart, but.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I do think you poop your pants.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I think we've all shard before.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Oh okay, I didn't see you before. I don't even
know where.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Any Way, I love Walmart. I want to put that
out there.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I just thought that would be a fun.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I just never heard you go to Walmart, so that's where. Okay,
that's my that's sting the lies. Okay, you peed in
Walmart yourself and Walmart you peed yourself Ware.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Car rider Line pooped yourself at work? I say the
car rider.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Line definitely did not pee myself at Walmart.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Good job.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
You know a pop story though, anyway, so sure do
as everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I think it's kind of fun and we're rapping. Bye guys,
Bye bye
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All right, so this week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Annie
sarnblad On. She is a human light detector, so she
is an expert in reading facial expressions as well as
a Steem strategic advisor. Who I'm so excited, I am
so nervous. Do you believe in light detectors?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Do you Nope?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Actually, can I change my answer because I think I
remember a story? No, no, no, listen, I've known.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Why are you pointing at me?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I've known two people that passed the lie detector test personally,
know them that both lied. So I just don't know
if I try personal, pretty personal, but I will say this,
Kat is the most buttoned up, non commenting person today.
It's cracking me up. But we had just a view
of just her face with this entire time. Let me
(01:01):
just say this, as Catherine's got my gruntee little son
over there, I think I would trust the facial expressions
over the other ones. So that's why I'm really interested
to talk to her. Good point because it's actually easy
to how do I say this? You can pass a
lie detected chest by the breathing, so if they ask you,
(01:24):
it's taken your breath. So it's like if you go
if you know, yeah, like is your name Kristen, Yes,
if you're to ask it, so you have to control
your breathing for all the answers. Little Jana Panther.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
One people to pass a detector does and this is
why they're not admissible in court.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
But I think with facials, I again I would want
to know. That's why I'm so excited talk to her
because I'm like, I would believe that over anything else,
because there there's got to be a look or something.
There is something like a look to the left or something. Well,
let's get her on. And you're the actress, so this
is going to be a real test, a testimony to
your craft. And we got to truth and a lie
(02:06):
and we're going to see if she can decode it.
And one of mine is a speculation that you guys
might not know, okay, what there might be something you
don't know? Cat cat considering it. I find out today.
So we'll see.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Annie Annie hie.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Nice to see you all.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Nice to see.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
What is your last name? I know your last name,
but what is the origin.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's in English.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Okay, I totally did say that wrong. Then yeah, sartn
blood okay, and then what is it?
Speaker 4 (02:41):
What is that if you want to say in Swedish?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's Swedish? Okay, all right, I love that.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Are you?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Did you grow up there or did you grow up here?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
It's my ex husband's name, but my maiden name is
actually Norwegian Solberg. Okay, it's so bye. So everybody. When
I moved to Sweden as a sixteen year old exchange student,
that was my version of running away from home. Everybody
thought I was Swedish. Sod help learn the language quickly
because people would just talk to me in Swedish.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And they see your ex husband because you saw a
facial expression that you didn't like.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
No, No, Unfortunately, I just made bad choices.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Wow, we've all been there.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
He's a nice person. It wasn't a good fit and
I had a lot of traum in my childhood, so
I chose something that felt very safe and predictable.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
And then I don't know if anybody has wrapped up
my life in a sentence quite as fast as you
just did. But so jinks, Annie, Yeah, buy me a coke,
that's right. But I will say this, So I love
that you went straight too. He's a good person. You
had your stuff, Like, I love that aspect of it.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
You're not trying to be Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
He's because I've had I've dated other people that aren't
good people.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
But difference also jinks. Okay, Annie, do you just want
to come sit down with us because.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
I feel I really would like to, Like, I feel
like I just snuggle right there in the middle of
the sofa.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Who is this right now? He's three and a half
weeks old? So this is my son Jack Geez. I
always collim Jason Roman. I either call him the dog.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Or welcome to having three children, whichever kids you were Roman.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Yep, I've got three too, and I had I had
mine in just over three and a half years, so
I still get them confused.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So that's a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
That's the thing all day every day.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, I mean I do it probably every day.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Because I started to think, I'm like, maybe I should
change his name because I can't I keep them.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
It's just fine, You're just in like it's I mean,
hormones and all the things.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Sure that was weird?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Is I have all l's. I have three kids, they're
all l's. And I don't confuse them, but I confuse
the boy like my husband and my son's name.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I was just about to say that I do that
Nick and Caiden are the same person.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, well sometimes I get him mixed up with the
dog too, Like that's not popular.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Sometimes the behaviors are somewhat similar, and it's warranted if
I'm honest. Between the eighty five year old. Yeah, okay,
So I have a question. We started briefly to chatted
about this. Do you believe it that lie detectors, the
ones that go on your chest, are those one hundred
percent accurate?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I actually have no idea. It's a great question, but
those are dealing with like heart rate and gosha. I
don't even really know how to answer that. It's not
something that's particularly interesting to me because the machinery detects
changes and breathing and heart rate and all these like
(05:41):
physiological reactions, and so a really good spy can create
an alternative reality, just like I mean, you know about this.
You're an actress, so like when you're in that scene,
you're living it, right if you're doing it, well, you're
there emotionally, yeah, and you're in it, and so really
(06:02):
good spy creates two parallel lines of thought, and it
can put themselves into like the emotional the like fantasy life,
so like did you did you murder her? And like
in Vegas and the like. If you can convince yourself
that I was on a beach in Akapolco, then you
were on a beach in a c Polco and you
could in theory trump the machine.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Right because yeah, okay, that makes yes.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
That expressions that actually precede the thought process.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So yeah, what's that, Like, what's the first micro expression
that you would go That person is lying?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So I'm looking for the disconnect. So the facial expression
and the words don't match. So somebody, I mean, it's
as simple as somebody saying I did not do that
while they're nodding like that's our body leaking and that's
the knot isn't really a micro expression, and that's and
the knot is also not universal. It depends. That's Western society.
(06:58):
But if I say, I'm so happy to be on
your podcast and I'm showing the growl, I'm showing the
no face, that the facial expression of disgust, there's something
off there. I'm not actually feeling what I'm saying that
I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Okay, I am so nervous right now and I think
it I am the world's worst liar. Like I have
sweaty hands. I feel like I am being busted right
now and there's literally nothing. I've done nothing. But do
you know what's so funny? Is I really wish she
would say? And that's usually the people that lie once
say that like I would never do that.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I would.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I'm just no, Like, I'm just right. I'm a chronic
overs like I'm a chronic oversharer, so like I won't
I can't even tell you that I had something that
I didn't have for lunch.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
No manny talk to us about that.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Everybody wants to say to me. They're like, oh, you
must be awesome and poker, and I'm like no. The
reason that I'm obsessed with this has to do with
childhood that had a fair amount of trauma in it,
and the people that would that we're supposed to be trustworthy,
that lied to me all the time, and my obsession
with figuring out who I could rely on and who
(08:11):
was who was safe and who was trustworthy. And so
I'm a terrible liar. I really don't like lying, and
I don't like it when people lie to me. I mean,
the obsession comes from a need to figure out who
is it's less. My best friend always says, you're not
a lie detector, You're a truth detector. Like you don't
really care who lies to you. You want to figure
(08:32):
out who tells you the truth.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So has this been since childhood that you've had this
passion and then does it go into like learning the
traits professionally all of the thing.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah, So that the childhood piece is my why, you know,
why I got into it and why it was such
an obsession with me. And then the fact that I
was gaslightd so much about what I saw and what
I lived through, you know, that didn't happen a week
later that was no longer true, and I was told
(09:02):
to you know, family loyalty was very, very you know,
it was a big focus, and so I really ran
away and got away as early as I could. I
was fourteen years old when I started planning. You know,
I figured out that you could be an exchange student,
that you could basically go and live with another family,
and so that became my obsession, and I how I
(09:27):
got out and I was gone. I mean, it came
back for vacations and that kind of thing, but I
was It was almost twenty five years that I was
outside of the US, and I've lived in nine different countries.
So I spent much of my time learning languages. I
have a master's in anthropology, and I spent like this focus.
I was obsessed with learning languages through immersion. So and
(09:48):
I wasn't that great learning languages. So I literally have
spent years in my life not understanding what people are saying.
And then I got certified in what's called facial action
coding and learned to numerically code the different muscle combinations
in human expression. But I'm not that good at that
(10:09):
advanced mathematical coding, so I simplified the entire field to
be able to teach my kids.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Well, it's so interesting. So I grew up in a
similar situation and was basically taught to lie my whole
childhood and then to lie like told to lie, tell
your grandparents this, tell so and so.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
This, so.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Then I would have a natural as I got older,
in natural inkland the smallest thing to just lie. And
then I got to a point where I'm like, hated
that is not cat by the way, but I hated lying.
So it's still a very I get very hurt, very
easily if I know someone's lying, and it is a
(10:50):
huge I take it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So personal too. And I'm going through a phase of
my son right now. He's five, and he is the
sweetest liar, and it's like a I can tell, like
I don't want to be mean about it, but I
can feel it hit somewhere in my body where I'm like,
you could be a million things in life, but don't
(11:12):
ever be a liar to me.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Well, I mean, we carry our own troublem And isn't
that so interesting with children that they hold this mirror
up to us where we not only have to figure
out what we want to do differently. I mean, you know,
even when you grow up in an ideal situation at home,
you want to figure out, like what what do I
want to do differently and what do I want to
do the same as my parents, and they really reflect back.
(11:39):
But for me, one of the hardest things is figuring
out how to kind of meet it in the middle
and not just respond from my trauma all the time,
but grow through it and heal and say that like, Okay,
a five year old lie is pretty normal and you
can write and you don't want to shame them, but
you also want to talk about how that makes you
(12:00):
feel without bringing all the druma. I mean I remember
my oldest looking at me at one point and saying,
not everything has to be a life lessen mom.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's kind of how I feel though, Like I feel
like I'm I feel like I'm doing that. Like I'm like,
if it starts now, then he's gonna spiral and he's
gonna you know, and I'm like, really, he's just five
and he's just got a big imagination.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yeah, but you should still tell him what you're feeling
and you know, but in age appropriate words.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
But or maybe we just FaceTime miss Annie and she
can tell me what's really like.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Now.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Have you dealt with that too, with the kid aspect.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, I mean five is a very normal age for
them to start doing that. We just have, like I
have to find ways with my older kids to be like,
as long as you tell me the truth, as long
as you're honest with me, we can deal with anything.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Like what we have.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
We just very much deal with that. But like I
haven't have a hard time in my marriage because I'm like,
you lied, and he'll be like I said, it was blue,
not green. I mean, it'll be the smallest thing, and
he's like, you've got to let that go, like and
it can get hard. So I'm trying to be better
about it because it's not It's also not that black
and white to me. It's like a Lia's Eliza, lie,
you omitted this and you lied to me, you know,
(13:08):
And so I have to I have to bring myself
back from that.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
And I as childhood trauma on the couch.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And not great in these days.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
It's really everybody that has childhood trauma exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think it's just because we're all talking about it finally.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
But I also don't think I would want to be
able to do what she can do.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Is there error in what you do as well? Like
when you so for example, like my fiance is the
most loving, i mean sweet human being, but he's he's
more he's he's Scottish, he's a little bit more harsher
on his expressions. He's more like, I know he loves me.
But I think when maybe some people that might see
(14:03):
something and be like, oh well, he's not doesn't look
very happy or something, and I'm like, he's right. So
that that piece, I'm like, well, you don't also know
you know X, Y and Z.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
So I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Is there a piece of it where it's like it's
not all about just the facial I guess.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Okay, So how can I have a dirty mouth? Like
how sure? Yeah, okay. So I can always tell the emotion.
I can tell what somebody is feeling clear as day.
I cannot tell what they are thinking. I can't tell
the why. But the micro expressions when you get to
the level that I'm at, and my kids have been
(14:42):
trained by me, so we never missed the micro expression.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And that's the nod the right.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
So so like this is the full facial expression of disgust.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So that yeah, she's kind of like clenching her teeth
a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
We're actually trained out of it as as grown ups,
and the micro expression that leaks that, you know, we're
trained out of these micro expressions by or the macro expressions,
the long, big facial expressions out from our parents because
it's not socially acceptable to be like, oh, you want
me to go over to your house? Oh, right. We
you know we can't, we can't go through life in
(15:22):
a socially acceptable way. But the micro expressions precede the
thought process and they leak all day long. So it's like, oh,
you want me to do this deal with you. That
twitch is always there, so I can see the exact
moment and the exact feelings, sometimes even before the person
feeling it has time to process their emotions. However, I
(15:42):
don't know why, Like if I ask you to meet
me for lunch next week and you showed disgust, which
I call the no face, that little twitch. I don't
know if it's because you're busy. I don't know if
it's because you don't like me. I don't know if
it's because you have, like, you know, some visitor, or
because you really you wanted to read my book before
(16:03):
you continued working with me, and you hadn't had a chance.
I mean, there's all these scenarios. So I when I
speak frankly, I say, it's as universal as a man
with an erection. If you set a naked man with
an erection, he is aroused. I don't know if he's
thinking about me.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
But I know that's a different podcast altogether.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Right, that's a different podcast. But if he's standing there
going like I'm not aroused, you're going, well, yes you are,
because there's a change in blood flow and muscle movement
in response to that arousal.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Will my bowtox throw you off?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
On my and the level that I work with, because
it's almost, like I explain it, like if you do
a five hundred puzzle piece puzzle and it's sailboats, and
then you take out a bunch of the puzzle pieces,
I can still see it's just it's still boats. So
that's sort of a simplified way of saying with every expression,
there's a top piece and a bottom piece. And so,
for example, a genuine smile, what happens has nothing to
(17:04):
do with the mouth. If we're genuinely feeling joy, our
cheeks pop up and that makes this skin right here
under our eyes bold it out, and we get these
little smile bags. So if I'm if I'm masked, you
can still see that regardless if you see my mouth
or not.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I am so fascinated by you. So could we do
Can we do a little game before we talk about
your book?
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Can we do two truths and can we do two
truths and a lie?
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Sure, it might go first. It might be this is
a little tricky because people get so joyful about lying
and situations.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I am not. You're not joyful, and I want you
to go first.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
So shame. But you're gonna show like a little bit
of delight. So okay, we go, let's try it.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Okay, don't you go first? No, you go first? No,
Catherine got and I vote?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, okay, okay, okay, let me get my questions. Okay,
So two truths and a lie? Ready, and I would
have another kid I got wrongfully sued last year.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Alan and I are already married.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
So that was dead panned. But you showed, you showed
mirth that thought we're already married.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
What does mirth mean?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
It just means like tricky business.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That should actually be the name of this podcast, dream business.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
So I don't know because you said it's so fast,
and then you were like, hey.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
If you're already married, I'm gonna lose my mind.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I mean, I do have an extra band on my
hand that no one's asked about. Can you say I
don't know which one? Sure, I'll say him again. I
would have another kid, I got wrongfully sued last year.
Alan and I are already married an actress.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
So the wrongfully sued last year, you showed a little disgust.
So I'm guessing that you were wrongfully sued.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Catherine, Well, I know you were wrongfully so say true true,
Yeah the other two I'm questioning myself over here when
I'm worried about the answer on both.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
It's fun, like it is a fun game. The really
interesting thing for me is that when people are in
a high stake situation, because they'll often show shame. And
so what I look for in somebody exhibiting shines of
being a sociopath, for example, is whether or not they
show shame when they're lying, and whether or not they
(19:42):
show empathy when someone else gets hurt. We should pucker
our chin. That's a crucial piece of empathy. So if
you're telling you about something that's really hard, like if
you go into detail about being wrongfully sued, I'm gonna
pucker my chin because that's not fair. I'm feeling your
pain with you. So if somebody doesn't ever show that,
and you're supposed to be emotionally attached, so like if
(20:04):
you're dating somebody and you're trying to figure out, Okay,
I know this guy's attracted to me, but does he
actually care about my feelings? You know, whenever you talk
about something that's emotionally, physically, or financially difficult for you,
he should be puckering and mirroring that chin. That's basically
saying I'm feeling this feeling with you.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And like, if you were to ask a partner are
you cheating on me? What would be their face of lie?
I mean, this is why we're best friend.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
But so I do get this question sometimes. Yeah, this
is so if he says no, one nods. That's a
problem anytime somebody says again, we're talking about the US, Canada, Mexico,
Western Europe. Like if you get over to Sri Lanka
and India, there's different head movements. So that is a
cultural thing. But in our culture. I grew up in
(20:52):
the US too, this means yes and this means no.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So he's like, we say that again. This so shaking
your head means shaking your head.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
No means so I've never done that, and absolutely I'll
be there for you. That matches, right, But if you're
saying I'm never I would never cheat on you. That's
a problem.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, that made me feel weird when you did that.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Actually it feels itchy, right. You always trust your gut,
even if you can't dissect it or you don't know
the science behind it. There's a reason that our gut
is telling us. And so what I'm trying to do
is help women put the words, put the science on
why their gut is telling them certain things.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So then what else with the head nod with the
the cheating question.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
So my son came to me and said to me,
he's eighteen and he was a few months ago and
he said maybe. It was last year he said, I
want to go out on Saturday night? Can I go
out to this party? And I was like maybe? And
he goes, thanks, because all my kids are trained, and
I go I said maybe, and he goes yeah. But
when you say maybe, and you know that's always you're
always end up saying yes because you're thinking yes. And
(21:57):
when you say maybe and you shake your head, that
means you're not You're gonna say no. You always say
no when you shake your head.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So have you outsmarted yourself raising these little idea? I
know I'm kind of feeling it for you. I'm glad
there's more of you in the world. But then I'm
also like, oh, kind of sucks to be the mom.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
K of when your kids can see you're attracted to
somebody because your pupils dilate. That sucks. You're like, oh,
you think he's hot.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I'm like, oh, no, awkward when it's like mister Smith
and math teacher.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Yeah, so wait, have we figured out you're lying yet?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
It's very important I give one truth in one lie.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
No, I want to know. I want to know.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
No, I'm not doing that well.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I just was thinking. I get a lot of comments
on this podcast. They'll post a little bit of the
of like the video of this podcast sometimes in to
tease the episode, and people write to me all the
time they're like, we wish we had a full video
of your expressions because I feel like I'm not good
at hiding it. And then I feel like, sometimes I
look at me, it looks like I'm not having any fun,
(23:19):
but I'm so always.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
My face always looks like I'm mad.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
But okay, so that is that like when we furrow
our brow. So even if you've got botox and you
think that that actually impedes these muscles from ferr and
these are thinking muscles, are concentrating muscles, and we like
tend to bring this all down. And it's almost like
kick starts the process of thinking of like problem solving,
and there's a piece of problem solving both in problem
(23:45):
solving and in anger. But people mistakenly think this sort
of stern look is necessary necessarily anger, and it's only
anger if the mouth is tight.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
And that's what I feel like I am on here.
It's usually when I'm listening and I really thinking about
what you're saying. I look miserable, but I'm truly thinking.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, like I look like I have reasting beef.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And Janna's like, why are you looking at me like that?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Are we good?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (24:12):
It doesn't look friendly because our brains processed as part
of anger. And that's correct, and it's the part of anger.
But anger is always going to have like whether the
mouth is shut or open, it's always it clenches everything,
That's what it's like. It clenches our shoulders or clenches
our fists so that we are preparing to fight.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I think there's a good piece of what you just
said too about it's yes, the expression like if you
were to ask someone okay, have you cheated or or
did you cheat on me? Your your your gut is
also asking that question too, right, So I think there's
such a good piece with it. Yeah, exactly, like even
having that conversation, even asking that's a huge, like you said,
(24:54):
huge problem. So yeah, I think that's the first thing
and going okay, if you're asking that, right, you're is
telling you something that's probably not.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Good, probably not a good sign.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
If you have to ask, I would totally I would
totally agree. And so I'm always looking at whether or
not the facial expressions match the words. So somebody who
says I'm really happy for you, that's a problem showing disgusting,
that's a problem. You know I got that, I got
that great promotion, or I just had a baby. You know,
people should be like, you know, yay, congratulations. They should
(25:25):
be lifting up their cheeks. That's joy. Their body language
and everything should be aligned. If something feels off, it's
because it's your primitive brain processing that something's wrong. Those
are your survival skills kicking in.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
We have a girl's night coming up, and it's gonna
be funny that there's three of us pseudo trained. But
also you're a great actress, as we saw in at
my fortieth birthday party. So when I'm being funny, not
when I'm being serious, one truth, one lie, one truth,
one lie. Yep, I probably have the most botox of
anyone on this couch. So this is the ultimate test. Annie. Okay,
(26:04):
I've ridden a camel. Yeah, I've been strapped to a
semi going fifty five miles an hour. I kind of
got to say the truth is the fifty five miles
an hour. I'm like, oh my god, that's because that's
so crazy.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
I cannot tell. I literally can't tell.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Is this when I give a shout out to my
injector or because or is it that I've put myself
in two places in my brain?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
I don't know. I mean, i'd like, I literally just
I can't tell.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I've never ridden a camel.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I was saying, you're strapped to a on the show, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
My husband had to help me with this, which makes
me a little nervous actually, because I'm I've always sucked
notoriously at two truths and a why even in school
and everything, Because I just I don't know why there's
something like weird in my brain that happens that anyways, it's.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
A weird game. And what I usually get people will
do this to me at cocktail parties are at it
and they'll be like, Okay, I'm gonna like it.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I'm they show to light.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Which is what we call that facial expression of like
of trickery, like I'm going to get you on. But
now it's a game, and that's what's usually off. What
was kind of interesting and you say both of those
things is you just kind of deadpanned the straight up,
like like just send them boats straight out without much emotion.
(27:20):
But that when you said I've never ridden a camel,
you tucked your you touched one corner of your lips
into the into the cheek, and that's what we call
a knowing smile. So that's like, I know, I know
about this.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So you have a book out that's called Diary of
a Human Light Detector Facial Expressions and Love, Lust and Lies.
What is the biggest takeaway that you that will help
people that read this book? And then what your biggest like,
what was your favorite chapter in it?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
So we can promote the book.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
So the biggest takeaway is that these are things that
we kind of sort of already know. The pieces that
I'm teaching for a lot of us women. When I
hit my audience right, people are reading the pieces about
my life and then I'm dissecting them and teaching the
facial expressions using my life's stories. And when I'm hitting
(28:17):
my audience right, they're they're looking at these they're reading this,
They're going, yes, that's true, and I know this facial
expression and I know Barack Obama always makes the facial
expression of suppression.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I would love to see you in politics.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Right, Yeah, there's that would be a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
But there's certain peace to thy coming, right.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
That's the people that certain people make and when we
when I break it down and I show it, or
that Mona Lisa smile of kind of like yeah, that
half one lopside and smile like I know about that,
that sort of secret I know something you don't know.
Or the dilation of the pupil, which which is so
useful in love and dating to see if somebody's really
(29:00):
feeling aroused in the moment. They're people's swell during the
conversation and you're like, oh, my god, I have this
person in the palm of my hands. They're really interested,
they want me right now. Those pieces are so juicy
and so interesting, and I think for a lot of women,
I'm putting words on things that they intuitively have always
(29:22):
known because I'm describing the universal language of our species,
which is biologically hardwired into us. And I think they're men.
I mean, I have male friends that I work with
that I really enjoy intellectually, and they've said I can't
get through ten pages, like there's too many feelings.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Yeah, Oh, I'm so excited. I'm really excited. I'm just
going to leave it on the nightstand. I think it
speaks for itself.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I like peaks about love and lust. That's my favorite.
Those pieces. I think I will endlessly be interested in
knowing if someone that I have strong feelings for me
is one attracted to me too emotionally attached to me?
Does he want me? And does he love me? I
think are such universal questions.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yes, and that's an ad to cart for everyone. So
thank you any so much for coming on the show.
Would love to have you back on. You're so sweet.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Thank you nice Kat.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
We didn't get to you, but we're also your truth
and I just don't know. We have to lie.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
I need to know if you're having another baby or
you're married. This is so important.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I can guess what you say, what you think the lie?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You and I are both walking out?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
True?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I know, but also are you really thinking about having
another baby?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I mean, I think they're both lies. I'm hoping, but one.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I'm not hoping.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I'm babies.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Right, We're down to the final truth.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Done, dun dun well. The truth is I would have
another kid.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Okay, I'm not going to, but you would, but I would, okay,
And this is just the present with the three birthstones.
And I know I was like, I don't remember your
pupils when you told me about the band.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
When I asked, oh my gosh, okay, so mine mine
are stupid?
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Okay, I be ready ye true, we're gonna do. I'm
gonna okay, we're going to beat the LA texture test.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I pete on myself in Walmart, ready.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
On myself and can't take this rid.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I might just on thee.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I pee on myself in the car writer line, who
knew you were the number one girl? Okay?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
So we put on myself.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
This is why I said, no, you pooped on your
self Ware at work.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I'm gonna go with I'm gonna say to embarrassing. I'm
gonna say that.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I'm gonna say the lie is that she peed on
herself in Walmart.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
I don't think you want you go to Walmart, but.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I do think you poop your pants.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I think we've all shard before.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Oh okay, I didn't see you before. I don't even
know where.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Any Way, I love Walmart. I want to put that
out there.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I just thought that would be a fun.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I just never heard you go to Walmart, so that's where. Okay,
that's my that's sting the lies. Okay, you peed in
Walmart yourself and Walmart you peed yourself Ware.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Car rider Line pooped yourself at work? I say the
car rider.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Line definitely did not pee myself at Walmart.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Good job.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
You know a pop story though, anyway, so sure do
as everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I think it's kind of fun and we're rapping. Bye guys,
Bye bye
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