December 21, 2023 • 25 mins
Do you feel like you’re constantly stuck in the “friend zone”? Dating coach Connell Barrett helps Jana understand how people fall into the friend zone when dating, and more importantly, he shares how to get out!
And if you’ve ever been trapped in a “friends with benefits” situation, you have to hear Connell’s words of advice to get what you want!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
All Right, so this week's there's a therapy. We've got
Connall Barrett. So he is the founder of Dating Transformation.
He is a dating coach from Men who works with
clients all over the world. So he has the website.
He's been basically in the friend zone forever and he
(00:22):
has transformed many men's lives in the dating world. He's
in New York and he helps his clients get more dates,
grow more confident, find love with bright, beautiful women like y'all.
So let's get him on and then maybe ask him
a few questions of what we can do too, well
y'all can do in the dating world.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hey, Connall, nice to meet you. Hey, I'm really excited
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
We'll just jump right in because when I was reading
your breakdown, I'm like, Okay, I've heard so one of
my girlfriends has done a dating coach and I was
just so intrigued by the dating coach and like, tell
me more about it. What did she have you do?
What was the things that she said not to do?
But I've never heard of an actual, like men man
targeted dating coach. But I love how you're right in
(01:10):
the thing it said, Chances are you struggle in this area.
You see women you want to talk to you, but
anxiety and self doubt hold you back. Or maybe you
do meet attractive women but they'll either reject you or
banish you to the friend zone and you say I've
been there. Hell, I owned a condo there, And that
was like he's like, oh oh no, I was like,
he's been friend zone.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I was a friend zone olive arch. I was there.
I own the whole city absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So what was the like, why did you think you
stay that? Did you not feel like you had the
confidence to break out from the is that where that
the first piece kind of lacks for men in those
situations where they're just like, okay, I know I can
at least be a friend, so this is comfortable here,
let me just stay here.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yes. So many men are afraid to take a romantic
risk and to have their authentic self rejected. So a
lot of men get in the friends zone, not because
they're not great attractive men with a lot to offer,
but because they're afraid to sort of put a card
or two on the table and say hey, I like you,
I want to take you on a date. Instead, they
(02:12):
play it safe. They act like they're your friend, just
your friend or your buddy, as opposed to saying, hey,
I think I might have a crush on you. You're
totally my type. Would you like to maybe go out
some time and grab a drink? Wind down? And a
lot of guys are just afraid that that kind of
vulnerability will get rejected. But it's actually that kind of
(02:32):
vulnerability that is the gateway to a real genuine connection.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Right And I'm listening to that and like my almost
rejection goes, Oh my gosh. But then to say that
and then you get rejected, What a crappy feeling that
is too. So how do you kind of coach your
people to go You might get rejected, you might not,
And what do you do with both those pieces?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I don't think in the courtship part of dating, I
don't believe rejection exists. It's not rejection. I look at
it as information. Not everybody is going to be my
type or your type. Some people like the Beatles, some
people love the Stones, And if they're like, hey, I'm
going to listen to the Stones and not the Beatles,
the Beatles are still the greatest band ever in my opinion. So,
(03:19):
in dating, if a man walks up to a woman
at a bar and he shoots a shot, he lets
her know he's interested and wants to talk to her.
If she pushes back and says, hey, I'm not really interested,
what I want him to know is there's it's not
really rejection. She doesn't know you well enough to reject you. Now,
if your partner of five years wakes up one day
(03:41):
and says, hey, you know what, I'm not in love
with you anymore and I'm going to leave you for Fabio, Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
That is rejecting Fabio Fabi, thank you, Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
It's my my Ohio accents coming to Michigan.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So that's why I know it sounds like he's that's
That was my next question. Are you from Michigan?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
But Ohio? That yeah, Ohio, Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So I tell my guys, hey, it's not rejection. She
doesn't even know you. Even if you have a date,
you might find out you two don't fit as people.
You might want different things. But the biggest mistake that
men make that creates the fear of rejection is giving
to giving into the story that if a woman doesn't
want to date me. That means I'm not enough, That
(04:23):
means I don't have worth, and quite the opposite. I think,
as long as you take a good, empathetic, authentic action
and take a shot at love, what's more attractive and
more worthwhile to a single man than that. I think
it's the actions you take that actually help make you
a man of value, as opposed to whether or not
(04:44):
somebody gives you that validation. It's nice to have a wonderful,
incredible woman say yeah, let's go out, But I don't
want a guy to feel like he needs that to
feel happy from the inside.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Absolutely Okay. So, as a.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Man or men at data coach, a male dating coach,
what is one of the red flags that you tell
your clients that a woman might do if you're dating,
like dating, and you're like, hey, kind of watch out
for this.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Red flags that a woman might do. If this is
not a personality trait red flag, this is a flirting
roadblock to watch out for a lot of women I
found love to talk about dating on a date. Really
they like to talk about the topic itself. Okay, and
(05:33):
that is a very seductive topic to talk about. But
if you talk about dating too much on a date,
whether it's past relationships or the whole what do you want,
what do I want? What do you want? Conversation? I
tell guys beware of getting sucked into that conversation loop
because that doesn't help you to connect as people. It's
(05:55):
kind of like talking about why a joke is funny.
If you talk about the joke too much, if you
dissect the frog, you kill the frog. If you talk
about dating too much on a date, then you're probably
going to kill the connection or at least stifle the
potential romantic sparks the two of you might have. So
that's a flirting red flag that I help my guys avoid.
(06:17):
We don't want to talk too much about dating on
dates because you should be talking about the two of
you and finding out how your personalities dovetail.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I guess I would probably be annoyed if a dude,
or and vice versa, if a guy just heard when
I was dating and just about all the people that
we were either a going on dates with. But I
will say is it okay too? Because there's definitely things
that I would say, like this is what I don't
want again?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Is that okay when you go out.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I'm not saying a guy should just shut a woman
down when the topic comes up, not at all, especially me.
So I met my partner Jess while I was out dating. Obviously,
and as a dating coach, it's normal to talk the
most normal thing in the world to talk about dating,
So it's totally fine to talk about it for a
little while. But I just wouldn't go down that rabbit
(07:07):
hole too much on first dates. It's better to talk
about TV shows, movies, your family.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
See that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Is that that sounds just so just not meaty enough,
like that would be I feel like that would not
grip me enough. Like I want to know someone's traumas,
and they're like.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
What I don't know? Is that like a bad thing?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Like I don't know, I just because I'm like, I
don't really care what your favorite color is. To be
honest with you, like that's I want to know, Like have.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You done the work? Are you doing the work? What
do you like?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
What is like? What's your biggest lessons? What did you
I don't know? Is that just am I the worst
first day?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Well, no, you're totally I totally agree with you. Now
you're talking about two people learning how they've grown, changed lessons.
One of my favorite questions that I used to ask
on dates and now I have my clients ask, is
I have them ask their date, Hey, if you could
go back in time and give your younger self a
piece of advice, what would you say to her ten
(08:02):
years ago? And then the two of you start talking
about lessons and growing. So I'm one hundred percent on
board with you there.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah. I used to My big one was what what what?
What was the biggest lesson you learned from? Maybe a
mistake or like I don't like to live with regrets,
but some kind of mistake that you was like, Okay,
this was a lesson I learned from that. And if
someone's like, well, I haven't really done anything, then I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Like you're done, you're out, you're lying.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I was like, we've all.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Done that, we are not proud of so, and we've
learned lessons from it. So if you can't know that
you've done that and not owned it, you have not
done an ounce of anything.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Well, owning up to pass mistakes or lessons is just
owning up to being a human and being vulnerable, which
is really attractive being authentic, which is what I'm all about,
just telling the truth and also showing a person how
you messed up and hopefully grew from it. One of
my I told this for you many times I had.
My one marriage was an nine week marriage.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Oh I've had one. I've had one of those.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Can you beat me because it wasn't nine weeks? Or
was it more or less?
Speaker 2 (09:07):
It was one week?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Oh? Okay, you just you just beat my record.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But tell me about your nine week I'm so intrigued.
I thought I was the only crazy one with.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
That one week. Wow, I feel humbled now I got up.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
So tell me about that. How long were you with
the person?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And then let me make a note, get married for
two days this weekend, I'm married. I married my grad
school and then beyond grad school sweetheart after.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Like Sarah exactly. She seems like a Sarah from Ohio,
just really sweet. We probably broke her heart.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
She was actually one of one of a couple different
chrises I dated.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Okay, there we go, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
And the nine week marriage was was both of it was?
It was on both of us. Neither of us wanted
to get married. She was on this track of being
in a relationship and getting married. I was so riddled
with self doubt and I thought I was so unattractive
to women. I thought, well, she's the one woman who
seems to want to be with me. I guess I'll
(10:27):
get married because if I don't, I'll end up alone
or having to settle. And so I said, well, I
may as well get married to her. We had this
big Catholic wedding, and she left me or said hey,
this was a mistake exactly nine weeks later. The joke
I made at the time was the marriage was over
so fast that we fought for custody of the wedding cake.
(10:50):
Not as fast as yours, but really fast. But did you.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Feel that same thing? Though I know you now go, yeah, okay,
you were young, you didn't feel But in that moment,
did you feel rejection or did you feel like, yeah,
I agree with Chris or whatever?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
I guess At the time, I didn't agree because I
was so caught up in my own issues of well,
she's my only option. If she leaves me, then I'm alone.
So I tried to quote unquote fight for it. About
three actually, about a month later, as I'm driving back
to my graduate school, I felt this giant weight had
(11:23):
been lifted. And that's when I realized, oh, she did,
we did the right thing. Thank god she instigated it.
If it wasn't for her, we might have been married
for years in a marriage that should not have really
ever happened. So I'm so thankful to her for having
the strength to say, hey, we made a mistake. Let's
call a nine week mulligan here.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, and now Jess that you've how long you've been
with her for?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Are we been together for almost two years?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Do you think she would say, was your biggest when
you guys started dating? Your biggest turn off? Maybe to
her if you're cause if you're a coach, you know,
I'm like, we don't those big so therapists we think
they have it all figured out, but usually there's something
that they do like, they don't do it perfectly right.
So what did you kind of if you could go
(12:10):
back into that dating situation with the Jess and go, oh,
I wish I would have done this? Or did you
just do it to a t like you tell your clients.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well, the biggest thing about me that bothered her was
when she saw my apartment, she said, are you ever
going to finish decorating your apartment. I didn't have blinds up,
I had almost no furniture, and I thought, oh, that's fine.
I'm a dude. So that's actually the biggest problem she
ever vocally told me she had with me in terms
(12:38):
of our actual relationship. Knock on wood. She hasn't said
there are any giant yellow flags or red flags other
than maybe the lack of kitchen where I still need
to buy. So I have a lot of those guide traits.
But that's the main thing, the big, the big. I
actually did have a dating epiphany, okay while I was
(13:01):
While I was, while she and I were first dating,
I think there's only four or five core ways that
all people flirt. This is going to be my second book.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Actually, because your first book is remind me the first
book again.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It's called dating Sucks, But you don't Dating sucks.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, but you don't, OKAYO.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
For men, it's basically a book for introverted men who
are kind of nice, nerdy but just never had dating confidence.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Okay, now the second one, this is the idea that
you're wanting to write about this epiphany, let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
The second book, which is for everybody men and women
of all sexual proclivities. There's really only four or five
about four or five core ways to flirt. And one
of the ways that I realize I'm really good at flirting,
and so is my partner Jess, is one of the
categories is verbal banter. Some people just love verbal banter, puns,
(13:53):
teasing each other. Think of the rom com you've started
many right, the kind of couple who has that rom
com banter? And when I was going out with Jess,
I realized, why is our chemistry so incredible? What is
it about it? And I realized we just loved to banter.
She even texted me, I'm sitting in the bar for
our first date. She texted me saying, by the way,
(14:14):
I'm really loving our banter. And we still banter and
flirt right now the way we did when we first met.
So the epiphany, the aha moment I had that once
I get off my button to write it will be
my second book, is how there's only five ways to flirt.
And once you anyone understands how you like to flirt,
(14:36):
and you understand how the person you're on a date
with likes to flirt, if you get on that same frequency,
you can really make sparks happen as opposed to sort
of miscommunicating. Have you ever had a date where on
paper you thought he was amazing, but you just couldn't click,
You couldn't make a click yep.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
And that's something really interesting too, because I can tend
to be a little much and not aggressive, but I'm sarcastic.
And then again even sometimes with my questions, I can
come off probably a little too much, a little too soon.
So if that other person doesn't have that same kind
of energy, that also is like whoa or or my
(15:20):
sarcasm like no, I'm joking, I'm from Michigan. I'm just
fun and we're like, well, like you know Michigan girls,
and so I'm just like but with my fiance, our
banter is. I think one of my favorite things about
our relationship is because we just we take the piss
out of each other. Like we we joke, we have fun,
we laugh where but like we both know we know
(15:40):
where the line is to not go over, and then
we know we know where to stay because sometimes it's
like I think people go over the line where it's
like hey, that actually hurt my feelings are making or
our banter, but where how we talk to each other
and how we communicate and how we banter back and forth.
It's just like, it's fun, it's cute, it's flirty's it's sarcastic,
(16:00):
it's feisty. And that's the first relationship where it's been
met the same, right.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I like that.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
I read that as saying that you probably is your
core flirting frequency. Flirting language is a verbal banter, that
verbal sparring, which makes total sense. You're an actor, you're
a singer, you're a podcast host, you are a very
verbal person, and so it totally makes sense that you
would click and connect verbally with a person like that.
(16:29):
But imagine a guy goes on a date with somebody
like you and you're off the charts with your wit
teasing giving him shit, and he's Another frequency is emotional connection.
He doesn't have your verbal skills. He just wants to
connect about favorite movies, puppies, things you have in common.
(16:49):
You might not want to do that on a first.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Or second I'm so bored already.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Boom, So there you go. Here, So here we have
an example of two people who might be incredible for
each other lives, and you might be great on paper,
but if you don't flirt on the same frequency or something.
Most here's a secret. Most men can't flirt at all.
They just they don't even know anything about flirting, let alone.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I do not. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I feel like that's I feel like they they do.
Some are very very good with it, like they know
what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
They can just I guess my guys, my guys, because
they struggle. But you probably men who are more on points.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I think they're just more calculated. They can be a
little I don't I don't flirt, and I'm like, yeah
you do.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah. But one of the back to the friend
zone issue that a lot of men struggle with a
lot of times, a guy goes on a date with
a woman and he's really excited about dating, or the
conversation is fine, there's no awkward pauses. He thinks it
goes well. Then the next day he nervously checks his
phone and gets that dreaded Hey, Jerry, it was great
(17:56):
meeting you. You seem like a nice guy, but just
didn't feel a connection. And often that's because she was
on one flirting frequency, he was on another, or not
on any of them, and she just didn't feel what
she wanted to feel in a potential partner. So what
I want to do is help men and women in
my second book be able to just know, Hey, here's
(18:17):
how I flirt, here's my strength, and here's how I
figure out what the other person's flirting languages, so I
can get us together on the same page to see
if we really want to make love.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
That's cool. I like that.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
I think that's going to do really well. I mean
because that makes sense. I've never even thought about it
that way with comparing to the love languages, So I
think that's really cool.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
For the girls that are listening to and they have
that friend zone guy right pay. Let's say one scenario
is they obviously they know that they prob that one
friend zone guy probably wants more. What is the nice
way to break it to them without just breaking their
hearts options. That's one scenario, And the other scenarios is
(19:15):
what if this girl too wants more and she's afraid
to ask for more because he's not asking, and so
they're both stuck in just this like maybe friends with
benefits or they're just in that okay, both of us
are not saying something so does she make the first move?
Do you wait for the guy, like will the guy
come around? Or what do you do when you're both
kind of in that I don't know friend zone but
(19:37):
want more.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
If it's the first scenario where she just isn't feeling it,
then I think the kindest way to let somebody down
is to shut the door firmly but gently, so she
might say something like, it's OK. And here's the thing
that really hurts when somebody turns you down. It's misinterpreting
that turning down as you're not a tract. If you're
(20:00):
not worthy of somebody like me, that is the that's
really the big bad wolf. Everybody on some level fears,
Oh am I enough? Am I attractive? Do I have worth?
Am I good enough?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
For love?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
So if you're gonna if you have to let somebody down,
you could basically say it's sort of like, uh, give
it a little sugar, Say hey, I've enjoyed going on
these one or two dates with you. You're clearly a fantastic guy. However,
I just I'm just not feeling the connection that I
need to feel in the chemistry. But I know you're
gonna find somebody amazing who's as great as you? And
(20:35):
I think we should call it here. And that pushback
or that you know, letting them down easy, makes it
not about hey, you're not good enough for me. It
just makes it like it's a chemistry issue, which it
might actually be. So it still might sting, but that's
a gentle way to do it. Now in terms of
a woman who is just not getting what she wants
from a guy, like, can you give me a hypothetical
(20:56):
just so I can answer you as best I can.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
So a girl friend of mine has someone they're like
a friends with benefits, but they're friends, like I said,
with benefits, but I think she wants more. She doesn't
know if he wants more. So what if that it's
set in between gray, like does she say something or
does she wait for the guy?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
She he's prettying he's putting her in a tough position
where she basically has to come come forward and put
a card on the table and say hey, I would
basically tell him what she wants, Hey, I would like
to see you this often, or I'm looking for a relationship.
Do you see this going to that place? And it
(21:39):
would be nice if he had taken that lead or
was taking that lead. But he's not. Okay, he's a guy,
he's clueless in some ways. He also might just he
might also just be enjoying the casualness of it. The
no string's a aspect. So yes, I would have her
go to him and she can texted him where she
(22:00):
can say in person whatever she wants. And I just
think there's nothing more powerful than a person with good
intentions saying here's what I want. I want this, and
I want it in a way that's win win for
both of us. Do you want the same thing? It's vulnerable,
it's scary, but it might be necessary in her case,
(22:20):
especially if the pattern has been set of casual situationship.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Be sure, and it might be a case where he
doesn't know maybe friends, but I guess friend zone is
no sex. But yeah, yeah, he's out of the friend zone.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
She she wants him in the relationship zone.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I think at the end of the day to what
we have to all know is that everyone gets rejected, right,
So it's like I've rejected people. I've been rejected, So
I think it's it's not what you said too, It's
it's not even about rejection. It's about Okay, this just
didn't work and we tried it, and but not to
take it on as I'm not good enough, because you are.
(22:59):
It's just that, right, You just weren't for that person,
and that person wasn't really for you, so they did
you a favor in the end too.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah. I haven't advanced how to make him your boyfriend tip?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Oh okay, okay, just popped in your mind.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Right, this is more show not tell, So tell is Hey,
this is what I want? What do you want? And
logical is good for men because men are logical robots,
but I show can be really powerful as well. So
instead of telling him what you want, you can show
him by inviting him to do boyfriend girlfriend activities with you,
so getting out of the dating or the just sex
(23:37):
mindset or I should say dating pattern. Invite him to
join you for yoga class, Invite him to go shopping
with you. Ask him if he needs to buy any
new shirts, and your services are available to help you
find some new shirts.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
There's a holiday Christmas party coming up. I don't know.
Do you want to come? Yes?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Introduce him if you have an already to your social circle.
Show him what it would be like if you were
the woman in his life, and then he might feel
what he needs to feel and realize, Wow, the way
she's talking to my boss, she's so intelligent. We just
we fit together.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I think we need to I think we need to
make this official or exclusive. So perhaps the show don't
tell technique is more powerful. The show is going to
be more powerful than tell with a lot of men.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Sure, okay, I like that. Well, those are some really
good tips. And then where can where can men especially
find you? And then where can our girls come find
some do some inter digging on you.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
My website is dating transformation dot com and that's where
anybody can find out more about me. And I specialize
in basically how I coach my younger self. I coach introverts,
nice guys, and nerds. I say that as a card
carrying nerd, and basically I help those kinds of guys
(25:02):
find some confidence and get a great partner and do
it all with authenticity, do it all without any toxic
pick up sketchiness, because I just believe that your most
authentic self is going to be what attracts the best
partner for you. So Dating transformation dot com is my
website and that's plenty for now.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Well, thank you so much for coming on. I'm glad
we got to find really do this, so thank you
so much. Really appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
No my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Okay, talk to you soon, all right, take care bye,
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
All Right, so this week's there's a therapy. We've got
Connall Barrett. So he is the founder of Dating Transformation.
He is a dating coach from Men who works with
clients all over the world. So he has the website.
He's been basically in the friend zone forever and he
(00:22):
has transformed many men's lives in the dating world. He's
in New York and he helps his clients get more dates,
grow more confident, find love with bright, beautiful women like y'all.
So let's get him on and then maybe ask him
a few questions of what we can do too, well
y'all can do in the dating world.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hey, Connall, nice to meet you. Hey, I'm really excited
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
We'll just jump right in because when I was reading
your breakdown, I'm like, Okay, I've heard so one of
my girlfriends has done a dating coach and I was
just so intrigued by the dating coach and like, tell
me more about it. What did she have you do?
What was the things that she said not to do?
But I've never heard of an actual, like men man
targeted dating coach. But I love how you're right in
(01:10):
the thing it said, Chances are you struggle in this area.
You see women you want to talk to you, but
anxiety and self doubt hold you back. Or maybe you
do meet attractive women but they'll either reject you or
banish you to the friend zone and you say I've
been there. Hell, I owned a condo there, And that
was like he's like, oh oh no, I was like,
he's been friend zone.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I was a friend zone olive arch. I was there.
I own the whole city absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So what was the like, why did you think you
stay that? Did you not feel like you had the
confidence to break out from the is that where that
the first piece kind of lacks for men in those
situations where they're just like, okay, I know I can
at least be a friend, so this is comfortable here,
let me just stay here.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yes. So many men are afraid to take a romantic
risk and to have their authentic self rejected. So a
lot of men get in the friends zone, not because
they're not great attractive men with a lot to offer,
but because they're afraid to sort of put a card
or two on the table and say hey, I like you,
I want to take you on a date. Instead, they
(02:12):
play it safe. They act like they're your friend, just
your friend or your buddy, as opposed to saying, hey,
I think I might have a crush on you. You're
totally my type. Would you like to maybe go out
some time and grab a drink? Wind down? And a
lot of guys are just afraid that that kind of
vulnerability will get rejected. But it's actually that kind of
(02:32):
vulnerability that is the gateway to a real genuine connection.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Right And I'm listening to that and like my almost
rejection goes, Oh my gosh. But then to say that
and then you get rejected, What a crappy feeling that
is too. So how do you kind of coach your
people to go You might get rejected, you might not,
And what do you do with both those pieces?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I don't think in the courtship part of dating, I
don't believe rejection exists. It's not rejection. I look at
it as information. Not everybody is going to be my
type or your type. Some people like the Beatles, some
people love the Stones, And if they're like, hey, I'm
going to listen to the Stones and not the Beatles,
the Beatles are still the greatest band ever in my opinion. So,
(03:19):
in dating, if a man walks up to a woman
at a bar and he shoots a shot, he lets
her know he's interested and wants to talk to her.
If she pushes back and says, hey, I'm not really interested,
what I want him to know is there's it's not
really rejection. She doesn't know you well enough to reject you. Now,
if your partner of five years wakes up one day
(03:41):
and says, hey, you know what, I'm not in love
with you anymore and I'm going to leave you for Fabio, Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
That is rejecting Fabio Fabi, thank you, Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
It's my my Ohio accents coming to Michigan.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So that's why I know it sounds like he's that's
That was my next question. Are you from Michigan?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
But Ohio? That yeah, Ohio, Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So I tell my guys, hey, it's not rejection. She
doesn't even know you. Even if you have a date,
you might find out you two don't fit as people.
You might want different things. But the biggest mistake that
men make that creates the fear of rejection is giving
to giving into the story that if a woman doesn't
want to date me. That means I'm not enough, That
(04:23):
means I don't have worth, and quite the opposite. I think,
as long as you take a good, empathetic, authentic action
and take a shot at love, what's more attractive and
more worthwhile to a single man than that. I think
it's the actions you take that actually help make you
a man of value, as opposed to whether or not
(04:44):
somebody gives you that validation. It's nice to have a wonderful,
incredible woman say yeah, let's go out, But I don't
want a guy to feel like he needs that to
feel happy from the inside.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Absolutely Okay. So, as a.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Man or men at data coach, a male dating coach,
what is one of the red flags that you tell
your clients that a woman might do if you're dating,
like dating, and you're like, hey, kind of watch out
for this.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Red flags that a woman might do. If this is
not a personality trait red flag, this is a flirting
roadblock to watch out for a lot of women I
found love to talk about dating on a date. Really
they like to talk about the topic itself. Okay, and
(05:33):
that is a very seductive topic to talk about. But
if you talk about dating too much on a date,
whether it's past relationships or the whole what do you want,
what do I want? What do you want? Conversation? I
tell guys beware of getting sucked into that conversation loop
because that doesn't help you to connect as people. It's
(05:55):
kind of like talking about why a joke is funny.
If you talk about the joke too much, if you
dissect the frog, you kill the frog. If you talk
about dating too much on a date, then you're probably
going to kill the connection or at least stifle the
potential romantic sparks the two of you might have. So
that's a flirting red flag that I help my guys avoid.
(06:17):
We don't want to talk too much about dating on
dates because you should be talking about the two of
you and finding out how your personalities dovetail.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I guess I would probably be annoyed if a dude,
or and vice versa, if a guy just heard when
I was dating and just about all the people that
we were either a going on dates with. But I
will say is it okay too? Because there's definitely things
that I would say, like this is what I don't
want again?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Is that okay when you go out.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I'm not saying a guy should just shut a woman
down when the topic comes up, not at all, especially me.
So I met my partner Jess while I was out dating. Obviously,
and as a dating coach, it's normal to talk the
most normal thing in the world to talk about dating,
So it's totally fine to talk about it for a
little while. But I just wouldn't go down that rabbit
(07:07):
hole too much on first dates. It's better to talk
about TV shows, movies, your family.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
See that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Is that that sounds just so just not meaty enough,
like that would be I feel like that would not
grip me enough. Like I want to know someone's traumas,
and they're like.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
What I don't know? Is that like a bad thing?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Like I don't know, I just because I'm like, I
don't really care what your favorite color is. To be
honest with you, like that's I want to know, Like have.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You done the work? Are you doing the work? What
do you like?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
What is like? What's your biggest lessons? What did you
I don't know? Is that just am I the worst
first day?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Well, no, you're totally I totally agree with you. Now
you're talking about two people learning how they've grown, changed lessons.
One of my favorite questions that I used to ask
on dates and now I have my clients ask, is
I have them ask their date, Hey, if you could
go back in time and give your younger self a
piece of advice, what would you say to her ten
(08:02):
years ago? And then the two of you start talking
about lessons and growing. So I'm one hundred percent on
board with you there.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah. I used to My big one was what what what?
What was the biggest lesson you learned from? Maybe a
mistake or like I don't like to live with regrets,
but some kind of mistake that you was like, Okay,
this was a lesson I learned from that. And if
someone's like, well, I haven't really done anything, then I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Like you're done, you're out, you're lying.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I was like, we've all.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Done that, we are not proud of so, and we've
learned lessons from it. So if you can't know that
you've done that and not owned it, you have not
done an ounce of anything.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Well, owning up to pass mistakes or lessons is just
owning up to being a human and being vulnerable, which
is really attractive being authentic, which is what I'm all about,
just telling the truth and also showing a person how
you messed up and hopefully grew from it. One of
my I told this for you many times I had.
My one marriage was an nine week marriage.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Oh I've had one. I've had one of those.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Can you beat me because it wasn't nine weeks? Or
was it more or less?
Speaker 2 (09:07):
It was one week?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Oh? Okay, you just you just beat my record.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But tell me about your nine week I'm so intrigued.
I thought I was the only crazy one with.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
That one week. Wow, I feel humbled now I got up.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
So tell me about that. How long were you with
the person?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And then let me make a note, get married for
two days this weekend, I'm married. I married my grad
school and then beyond grad school sweetheart after.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Like Sarah exactly. She seems like a Sarah from Ohio,
just really sweet. We probably broke her heart.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
She was actually one of one of a couple different
chrises I dated.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Okay, there we go, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
And the nine week marriage was was both of it was?
It was on both of us. Neither of us wanted
to get married. She was on this track of being
in a relationship and getting married. I was so riddled
with self doubt and I thought I was so unattractive
to women. I thought, well, she's the one woman who
seems to want to be with me. I guess I'll
(10:27):
get married because if I don't, I'll end up alone
or having to settle. And so I said, well, I
may as well get married to her. We had this
big Catholic wedding, and she left me or said hey,
this was a mistake exactly nine weeks later. The joke
I made at the time was the marriage was over
so fast that we fought for custody of the wedding cake.
(10:50):
Not as fast as yours, but really fast. But did you.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Feel that same thing? Though I know you now go, yeah, okay,
you were young, you didn't feel But in that moment,
did you feel rejection or did you feel like, yeah,
I agree with Chris or whatever?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
I guess At the time, I didn't agree because I
was so caught up in my own issues of well,
she's my only option. If she leaves me, then I'm alone.
So I tried to quote unquote fight for it. About
three actually, about a month later, as I'm driving back
to my graduate school, I felt this giant weight had
(11:23):
been lifted. And that's when I realized, oh, she did,
we did the right thing. Thank god she instigated it.
If it wasn't for her, we might have been married
for years in a marriage that should not have really
ever happened. So I'm so thankful to her for having
the strength to say, hey, we made a mistake. Let's
call a nine week mulligan here.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, and now Jess that you've how long you've been
with her for?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Are we been together for almost two years?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Do you think she would say, was your biggest when
you guys started dating? Your biggest turn off? Maybe to
her if you're cause if you're a coach, you know,
I'm like, we don't those big so therapists we think
they have it all figured out, but usually there's something
that they do like, they don't do it perfectly right.
So what did you kind of if you could go
(12:10):
back into that dating situation with the Jess and go, oh,
I wish I would have done this? Or did you
just do it to a t like you tell your clients.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well, the biggest thing about me that bothered her was
when she saw my apartment, she said, are you ever
going to finish decorating your apartment. I didn't have blinds up,
I had almost no furniture, and I thought, oh, that's fine.
I'm a dude. So that's actually the biggest problem she
ever vocally told me she had with me in terms
(12:38):
of our actual relationship. Knock on wood. She hasn't said
there are any giant yellow flags or red flags other
than maybe the lack of kitchen where I still need
to buy. So I have a lot of those guide traits.
But that's the main thing, the big, the big. I
actually did have a dating epiphany, okay while I was
(13:01):
While I was, while she and I were first dating,
I think there's only four or five core ways that
all people flirt. This is going to be my second book.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Actually, because your first book is remind me the first
book again.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It's called dating Sucks, But you don't Dating sucks.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, but you don't, OKAYO.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
For men, it's basically a book for introverted men who
are kind of nice, nerdy but just never had dating confidence.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Okay, now the second one, this is the idea that
you're wanting to write about this epiphany, let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
The second book, which is for everybody men and women
of all sexual proclivities. There's really only four or five
about four or five core ways to flirt. And one
of the ways that I realize I'm really good at flirting,
and so is my partner Jess, is one of the
categories is verbal banter. Some people just love verbal banter, puns,
(13:53):
teasing each other. Think of the rom com you've started
many right, the kind of couple who has that rom
com banter? And when I was going out with Jess,
I realized, why is our chemistry so incredible? What is
it about it? And I realized we just loved to banter.
She even texted me, I'm sitting in the bar for
our first date. She texted me saying, by the way,
(14:14):
I'm really loving our banter. And we still banter and
flirt right now the way we did when we first met.
So the epiphany, the aha moment I had that once
I get off my button to write it will be
my second book, is how there's only five ways to flirt.
And once you anyone understands how you like to flirt,
(14:36):
and you understand how the person you're on a date
with likes to flirt, if you get on that same frequency,
you can really make sparks happen as opposed to sort
of miscommunicating. Have you ever had a date where on
paper you thought he was amazing, but you just couldn't click,
You couldn't make a click yep.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
And that's something really interesting too, because I can tend
to be a little much and not aggressive, but I'm sarcastic.
And then again even sometimes with my questions, I can
come off probably a little too much, a little too soon.
So if that other person doesn't have that same kind
of energy, that also is like whoa or or my
(15:20):
sarcasm like no, I'm joking, I'm from Michigan. I'm just
fun and we're like, well, like you know Michigan girls,
and so I'm just like but with my fiance, our
banter is. I think one of my favorite things about
our relationship is because we just we take the piss
out of each other. Like we we joke, we have fun,
we laugh where but like we both know we know
(15:40):
where the line is to not go over, and then
we know we know where to stay because sometimes it's
like I think people go over the line where it's
like hey, that actually hurt my feelings are making or
our banter, but where how we talk to each other
and how we communicate and how we banter back and forth.
It's just like, it's fun, it's cute, it's flirty's it's sarcastic,
(16:00):
it's feisty. And that's the first relationship where it's been
met the same, right.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I like that.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
I read that as saying that you probably is your
core flirting frequency. Flirting language is a verbal banter, that
verbal sparring, which makes total sense. You're an actor, you're
a singer, you're a podcast host, you are a very
verbal person, and so it totally makes sense that you
would click and connect verbally with a person like that.
(16:29):
But imagine a guy goes on a date with somebody
like you and you're off the charts with your wit
teasing giving him shit, and he's Another frequency is emotional connection.
He doesn't have your verbal skills. He just wants to
connect about favorite movies, puppies, things you have in common.
(16:49):
You might not want to do that on a first.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Or second I'm so bored already.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Boom, So there you go. Here, So here we have
an example of two people who might be incredible for
each other lives, and you might be great on paper,
but if you don't flirt on the same frequency or something.
Most here's a secret. Most men can't flirt at all.
They just they don't even know anything about flirting, let alone.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I do not. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I feel like that's I feel like they they do.
Some are very very good with it, like they know
what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
They can just I guess my guys, my guys, because
they struggle. But you probably men who are more on points.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I think they're just more calculated. They can be a
little I don't I don't flirt, and I'm like, yeah
you do.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah. But one of the back to the friend
zone issue that a lot of men struggle with a
lot of times, a guy goes on a date with
a woman and he's really excited about dating, or the
conversation is fine, there's no awkward pauses. He thinks it
goes well. Then the next day he nervously checks his
phone and gets that dreaded Hey, Jerry, it was great
(17:56):
meeting you. You seem like a nice guy, but just
didn't feel a connection. And often that's because she was
on one flirting frequency, he was on another, or not
on any of them, and she just didn't feel what
she wanted to feel in a potential partner. So what
I want to do is help men and women in
my second book be able to just know, Hey, here's
(18:17):
how I flirt, here's my strength, and here's how I
figure out what the other person's flirting languages, so I
can get us together on the same page to see
if we really want to make love.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
That's cool. I like that.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
I think that's going to do really well. I mean
because that makes sense. I've never even thought about it
that way with comparing to the love languages, So I
think that's really cool.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
For the girls that are listening to and they have
that friend zone guy right pay. Let's say one scenario
is they obviously they know that they prob that one
friend zone guy probably wants more. What is the nice
way to break it to them without just breaking their
hearts options. That's one scenario, And the other scenarios is
(19:15):
what if this girl too wants more and she's afraid
to ask for more because he's not asking, and so
they're both stuck in just this like maybe friends with
benefits or they're just in that okay, both of us
are not saying something so does she make the first move?
Do you wait for the guy, like will the guy
come around? Or what do you do when you're both
kind of in that I don't know friend zone but
(19:37):
want more.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
If it's the first scenario where she just isn't feeling it,
then I think the kindest way to let somebody down
is to shut the door firmly but gently, so she
might say something like, it's OK. And here's the thing
that really hurts when somebody turns you down. It's misinterpreting
that turning down as you're not a tract. If you're
(20:00):
not worthy of somebody like me, that is the that's
really the big bad wolf. Everybody on some level fears,
Oh am I enough? Am I attractive? Do I have worth?
Am I good enough?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
For love?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
So if you're gonna if you have to let somebody down,
you could basically say it's sort of like, uh, give
it a little sugar, Say hey, I've enjoyed going on
these one or two dates with you. You're clearly a fantastic guy. However,
I just I'm just not feeling the connection that I
need to feel in the chemistry. But I know you're
gonna find somebody amazing who's as great as you? And
(20:35):
I think we should call it here. And that pushback
or that you know, letting them down easy, makes it
not about hey, you're not good enough for me. It
just makes it like it's a chemistry issue, which it
might actually be. So it still might sting, but that's
a gentle way to do it. Now in terms of
a woman who is just not getting what she wants
from a guy, like, can you give me a hypothetical
(20:56):
just so I can answer you as best I can.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
So a girl friend of mine has someone they're like
a friends with benefits, but they're friends, like I said,
with benefits, but I think she wants more. She doesn't
know if he wants more. So what if that it's
set in between gray, like does she say something or
does she wait for the guy?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
She he's prettying he's putting her in a tough position
where she basically has to come come forward and put
a card on the table and say hey, I would
basically tell him what she wants, Hey, I would like
to see you this often, or I'm looking for a relationship.
Do you see this going to that place? And it
(21:39):
would be nice if he had taken that lead or
was taking that lead. But he's not. Okay, he's a guy,
he's clueless in some ways. He also might just he
might also just be enjoying the casualness of it. The
no string's a aspect. So yes, I would have her
go to him and she can texted him where she
(22:00):
can say in person whatever she wants. And I just
think there's nothing more powerful than a person with good
intentions saying here's what I want. I want this, and
I want it in a way that's win win for
both of us. Do you want the same thing? It's vulnerable,
it's scary, but it might be necessary in her case,
(22:20):
especially if the pattern has been set of casual situationship.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Be sure, and it might be a case where he
doesn't know maybe friends, but I guess friend zone is
no sex. But yeah, yeah, he's out of the friend zone.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
She she wants him in the relationship zone.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I think at the end of the day to what
we have to all know is that everyone gets rejected, right,
So it's like I've rejected people. I've been rejected, So
I think it's it's not what you said too, It's
it's not even about rejection. It's about Okay, this just
didn't work and we tried it, and but not to
take it on as I'm not good enough, because you are.
(22:59):
It's just that, right, You just weren't for that person,
and that person wasn't really for you, so they did
you a favor in the end too.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah. I haven't advanced how to make him your boyfriend tip?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Oh okay, okay, just popped in your mind.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Right, this is more show not tell, So tell is Hey,
this is what I want? What do you want? And
logical is good for men because men are logical robots,
but I show can be really powerful as well. So
instead of telling him what you want, you can show
him by inviting him to do boyfriend girlfriend activities with you,
so getting out of the dating or the just sex
(23:37):
mindset or I should say dating pattern. Invite him to
join you for yoga class, Invite him to go shopping
with you. Ask him if he needs to buy any
new shirts, and your services are available to help you
find some new shirts.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
There's a holiday Christmas party coming up. I don't know.
Do you want to come? Yes?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Introduce him if you have an already to your social circle.
Show him what it would be like if you were
the woman in his life, and then he might feel
what he needs to feel and realize, Wow, the way
she's talking to my boss, she's so intelligent. We just
we fit together.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I think we need to I think we need to
make this official or exclusive. So perhaps the show don't
tell technique is more powerful. The show is going to
be more powerful than tell with a lot of men.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Sure, okay, I like that. Well, those are some really
good tips. And then where can where can men especially
find you? And then where can our girls come find
some do some inter digging on you.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
My website is dating transformation dot com and that's where
anybody can find out more about me. And I specialize
in basically how I coach my younger self. I coach introverts,
nice guys, and nerds. I say that as a card
carrying nerd, and basically I help those kinds of guys
(25:02):
find some confidence and get a great partner and do
it all with authenticity, do it all without any toxic
pick up sketchiness, because I just believe that your most
authentic self is going to be what attracts the best
partner for you. So Dating transformation dot com is my
website and that's plenty for now.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Well, thank you so much for coming on. I'm glad
we got to find really do this, so thank you
so much. Really appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
No my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Okay, talk to you soon, all right, take care bye,
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The Podium: An NBC Olympic and Paralympic podcast. Join us for insider coverage during the intense competition at the 2024 Paris Olympic and Paralympic Games. In the run-up to the Opening Ceremony, we’ll bring you deep into the stories and events that have you know and those you'll be hard-pressed to forget.
2. In The Village
In The Village will take you into the most exclusive areas of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games to explore the daily life of athletes, complete with all the funny, mundane and unexpected things you learn off the field of play. Join Elizabeth Beisel as she sits down with Olympians each day in Paris.
3. iHeartOlympics: The Latest
Listen to the latest news from the 2024 Olympics.