January 4, 2024 • 28 mins
Step into the sun in 2024! Jana is talking to Dr. Harry Cohen about why you should try to live “heliotropic”… but what does that mean??
Dr. Cohen shares life changing tips on how to guard yourself against negative energy, and how to change your own perspective to become a more positive person.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
All right, this Thursday Therapy. We have a doctor Harry
Cohen coming on and I'm really excited. He's got a
book called Be the Sun Not the Salt. Let's get
him on. And then there's a word called heliotropic. Not
really sure what that is, so let's get him on
and we'll find out what it is. Hi, Janna, Hi,
(00:25):
how are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I think the last time we were supposed to talk,
you had.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Something rather I had a baby. I think right, you
had a baby. Yeah. It was either that or I
know I had to cancel a few because I was
having some postpartum Like how are you now? Oh my, now,
you're so sweet for asking. I am. Yeah, I'm good,
I feel I feel good. The emotions have obviously been
all over the place. Do you have kids?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I have two thirty two year old twin boys.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Okay, So was postpartum a thing back then?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
With your wife like it? Did they talk about it
at all? Or was it?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It was it was a show because it was a
section and we were new to parenting and twins and
it was it was very, very different. Most of it
was just a fog of trying to deal with two
little boys, two little babies.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
But you did it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, I'm sure they're they're good. You know. It's it's a.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Journey, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
So how old is what's your story?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So? I have an eight year old almost eight year
old daughter, and then I have a five year old
son and now a let's see when this airs. So
today as we're recording, we're five days before Christmas and
he is five weeks so, you know, it's it's one
of those things where I was just out of it
(01:52):
with my five year old, and so it's kind of
restarting back up again and again. The hormones started really sensitive.
I wasper sensitive, and then all of a sudden, I
think last week I started to just get really agitated,
and I'm like, I don't even know why I'm agitated.
I just am agitated at everything that moves. So I
like went to my therapist and I'm like, I'm so,
(02:14):
I'm like, I'm normally high strung, but I'm on like
I've taken high strung pills and I don't know how
to like calm my nervous system down, you know. And
it was one of those where I'm like, I just
feel like I'm going to explode, and anyone I go to,
I'm like a wrecking ball of just like aggression, and
I'm like, I don't like, I'm like, I don't want
to be this way good good. So we're trying to
(02:38):
figure it out, but have you it's I think it's
again just trying to figure out where why, Like, Okay,
I know it's the the emotions and the hormones regulating.
I also think I again, I love, I'm so happy,
and I love obviously my baby and all the things.
(03:01):
But I think a piece of that aggression felt like
I was trapped again, like oh my gosh, everything is
around yet again, I'm you know, the schedule and feedings
and naps, and I don't have help yet, so I
just felt very I think trapped is the best word
I can think of when I was trying to explain
it to her. And I don't ever like the feeling
(03:22):
of feeling trapped. I get anxious, I lash out. So
that's where I'm just trying to. Now go, Okay, let
me find things that are good for me that I
can go do so I don't feel trapped.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Did your therapist help you.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
She's the best. I love her, but I'm always open
to which is why i have this segment because I'm
always open to learning.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
More So, I have no idea what our agenda is.
I'm happy to do therapy with you if you like,
but I.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Mean, hey, we can have a little dose of this
and a little dose of that, because I want to
talk about your book too, and I need to know
if you're a Michigan fan since you went to Michigan. Duh, okay,
thank you okay, because I'm like, I know some people
that go to you know, U of m are like, no, no, no, I.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Live in I mean, I have two front row seats
and two second row seats.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
If you ever want to do even don't even say
that without because I'm like, I will take you up
on that offer. That's one offer I would take.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Clear, I don't say anything that I don't mean. And
when I say I have two front row and two
second row and I give them away, I don't generally
don't go to the games. I give them away because
the experience for people who've never been to the Big House.
Front row is different and second row is pretty nice.
And and I'm happy to do that I went to
(04:37):
restaurant in town, you know, dinners on me plus two
front row seats, plus an experience at the Big House.
It's easy for me to do so.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I've never been to a game ever.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So so take someone whose mind would be blown and
you know, and we'll organize it and schedule it a web.
Pick a good weather month because it's different.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, you know in October. Well, gret I love this podcast.
This podcast has started out amazing. What a generous offer.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I really a curiosity is one of the qualities that
makes someone heliotropic.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Gradit okay, and that's what I wanted to When I
was reading your breakdown, I started to find myself googling, like,
what is heliotopic? I didn't even I've never even heard
that word before.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, the world will when when we've done our work,
the world will know what it means to be heliotropic.
They'll know what it means to be the sun and
not the salt. It's not complicated. It is why a
plant tilts towards the sun. The sun is a source
of energy, which is why the plant is drawn to it.
And it turns out that human beings are drawn to
(05:49):
heliotropic people, people who provide that source of energy for them,
which is positive, nurturing, good energy, and it comes in
the form of virtuous behaviors. This is empirical. So when
people are kind and generous and compassionate and authentic and
vulnerable and real and all the qualities that we love
(06:09):
about humans, we're drawn to them like the plant is
drawn to the sun. Therefore, we want to surround ourselves
with people like that. We want to be like that,
and it's nurturing and good for the world period. Conversely,
don't be a dick, don't be rude, disrespectful, unkind, lash
(06:30):
out all the ways that human beings can be nasty
to one another. Don't do that. It's salt on the roots.
So in a nutshell, that's this whole mindset, which is,
wait a minute, what you just did. I'm lashing out.
That's not my best self, that's not who I want
to be. Good. That salt on other people's roots makes
(06:51):
them feel horrible, makes you feel horrible too. I want
to be the good person that I know that I
am great. Be that way. Find your way back to
that way of being. It's not complicated me being generous
to you is easy. You know, when you give somebody
a buck, you know, you give tip a server or something,
(07:13):
you're being generous. It's easy. I can be generous. Anybody
can be. I'm not looking for a metal. I'm just
saying that practicing the virtuous behaviors that we love about
humans makes us feel good in the world. Feel good, right,
you know?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I mean I completely agree with that. And so the
book that you wrote is it do you talk a lot?
I mean obviously that the helio how do you say heliotropic?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, helio?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
True? That is that? Is that a new words? Did
you come up with that? Word? Is that has always
been there? I'm like, why why am I just hearing
it now? Because I've heard all the other phrases and words.
I know.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Professor Kim Cameron, he wrote one of the endorsements on
the back. We've done a podcast with people who are
heliotropic who want to be better people. He was one
of our first guests and he coined the expression. And
he's a Ross Business School, Michigan Business School professor, and
he researched positive energizers and corporations and what is it
about these people that make corporations more successful these leaders.
(08:12):
It's what he coined the expression heliotropic positive energizer. So
I stole it from him with his blessing and popularizing
it in the form of be the sun. Be like
the sun as opposed to the salt. So that's where
it comes from. But if you look up heliotropic, if
you know chet gpt it or Wikipedia, it'll describe qualities
(08:36):
of sunlight uplifting.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Why do you think most people go to the salt
of people as opposed.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
To There's a lot of reasons for it. We're wired
and geared to see the glass half empty. When a
branch snaps in the forest, we don't think it's a
good thing. So there's a natural inherent bias to go
to the negative. The negative stings long, stings and last longer. However,
(09:16):
cultural phenomenon and pep phenomenon and people can make us
more negative. Media is terrible, you know, if it leads,
it leads people like to gossip, people like to talk
about others' flaws and faults, and that's again human nature.
So we have to guard against the tendency, the human
(09:38):
tendency to do things that are of the negative. And
that's all why, because it's human nature, because it's easier
because the cultural norms around us. Because people like to bitch,
people like to complain, people like to talk about other people,
people like to point out flaws. You can see it
in other people. You need to notice it when you're
getting all cranky. Wait a minute, this what's going on here.
(10:03):
It's a natural tendency like gravity. You know, if you
put a lot of food in front of somebody, they're
gonna overeat. You know, we got bad habits and good habits.
You have to, you know, work on being you know
better habitual person, good person. Don't make it complicated. The
whole thing Jenna about this is don't over overthink this,
(10:24):
Just do the next right thing. After you screw up
to your credit, you recognized you were being cranky and
you said this ain't me. I got to go get help.
What I would say to you is, don't complicate it.
Do the next right thing for yourself or someone else.
They're interchangeable. If you need to take a break, take
a break. If you need to get some help, get
(10:44):
some help. If you need to you know, wind down,
wind get it, get it. Yeah, But I mean that
in the don't make it hard for anyone or anybody else,
like the tiniest things. And you said I was generous
and kind. That's very nice. It's not that hard to
be generous and kind. Here's what I just recently learned,
(11:06):
which is, you know what the hard part about this?
There isn't any There's no hard part about this. None
not hard to be a nice person. It's not hard
to take a break. It's not hard to you know,
you made a boo boo. Yes it is, No, it isn't.
You know what I mean? You noticed it in a heartbeat.
(11:26):
You said, I'm being all all, I'm lashing out. The
minute you lashed out, you said, wait a minute, that's
not how I want to be. Something's up. You're right,
figure it out and knock it off, which you did.
And I asked you it was your therapist helpful because
you know I was a therapist, and I know sometimes
I can be helpful sometimes not. The goal is to
(11:48):
be helpful, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Other, what other tangible tip could you say? Because I
think when I heard you say the glass half empty,
I do go that way most times where I and
I'm learning and trying to flip that to go no,
I'm gonna this next year or this year is going
to be very fulfilling, it's going to be a great year.
(12:13):
It's going to be a successful year. Instead of going, well,
I haven't gotten that role yet, or you know, it's
where I just I go to that kind of pessimistic
been in this for a long time, like.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Rotation, don't go first of all, don't go into a
full year. Do it today, do it the next minute,
do the next hour. Do it in this conversation. The
minute you hear yourself go into the you know, go
to the dark side, say wait a minute, I just
I just noticed that. Oh yeah, I don't need to
do that. And from shift your minds and your mindset
from get to to got to mm hmm instead of
(12:52):
I'm sorry, got to to get to? You say, oh
I did I meant to say get to God? Got
to to get to I made mistake? So what you
know what I mean? Like, oh I gotta go to work? No, no, no,
I get to go to work. Oh it didn't happen.
Oh well, So when you hear yourself go negative, let
your negativity be your best friend. When you wanted the
(13:14):
practical tip, the minute you go dark the minute you
go to your dark about Oh, I remember that guy
Harry said that. Let it be a little reminder, like
a little dude, dude, you got this, Thank you, You're welcome.
So the negativity is your friend because you can shift
it in a split second. Oh I just said that.
I just said I got to No, wait a minute,
(13:37):
I mean, where are your kids right now? Where's the
little baby who's watching.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The baby baby's napping? This is nap hour?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Oh beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, so I schedule things, you know, to make sure.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Okay, where's the five.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Five year old is actually with their dad today?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Beautiful? Yeah, so this quiet, beautiful respite and the baby's sleeping.
As soon as that baby cries. If you feel yourself
go oh no, okay, if you heard yourself go oh no,
it's a he or.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Sheet, it's a boy. But I just felt myself get
and this is just what happened their day. When I
was recording an audition, I'm in this. It's his nap time.
I'm recording for auditioning for what probably one of the
biggest movies I've ever auditioned for. I hear him crying,
and I'm like, no, I immediately I'm like no, no, no, no,
like you have to go back to like and I'm
stressing out and then I just go straight into that
(14:26):
panic aggression stress out mode.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, hold on a second. So let's just use as
an example that is going to happen. That is going
to happen a million times. So when it does, this
isn't your first rodeo. Oh man, the body's going to
do its thing. The body will do its thing. You're
not going to stop the body from reacting. You know,
they say, don't get nervous. Everybody gets nervous. You fled
is to let the channel, lets that by thely reaction,
(14:50):
reframe it in your mind. I'm going to get the
butterflies to fly information not gonna not have butterflies. It's like,
oh boy, all right, let's go rock and roll. Use
yourself talk, say I got this, not my first rodeo.
Whatever words you can use to say, Hey, I'm a mom.
If they don't want me as a mom, too bad,
I'm good. I got this self talk. You know, take
(15:12):
a breath, take take another one, take three, say out loud,
I hope you don't mind that. My baby's well, my
heart's to thumping because my baby just cried. I hope
you don't just be vulnerable and gutsy and throw yourself
into your work and your role and to your you know,
(15:32):
your life and let the chips fall where they may.
You can control what you can control. You can't control
anything else. If they don't want you, to screw it,
you'll get another role and another role. That's the nature
of this business. They're gonna say yes, they're going to
say no. They're gonna say yes, they're gonna say no,
we don't.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Care, which is where I think I've become a little
half empty. Two is the just then amounts of rejection
and the the uh you know, the social media and
the bully, all those things become. But now I again,
once I turned forty and once it's like there's there's
(16:11):
a shift and going, Okay, this life is too short.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You got it, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
To ever have. And that's the same thing with my ex.
I hated his guts for at least well for a
long time, but when we even got divorced, I mean
I was I just had I just every morning I
woke up and I just I hated him. And now
I'm like that was such a disservice to myself because
good now and now we're great, we have a great relationship.
(16:36):
Everything is used because I'm like, I'd rather be friends.
I don't want why why would I hate him? It's
I don't want that energy in my body. I don't
I don't want it for the kids.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
It's just look, see, this is what I mean by
doing the next right thing is beautiful. You can use
every single success in your life to propel you to
the next one, and every single failure to go, oh good,
I mean that story is just beautiful. What you transmuted
relationship with your ex. Do that fifty thousand more times
as best you can. You just told me this beautiful
(17:06):
success story of you and your ex. Yes, do more
of that. When you get rejected, you go, you know,
I handle that rejection pretty well. Good for you. At
least I got an audition. At least I got a shot.
Some people don't get an audition. You've got an audition
and they rejected you. Rock and roll. I I want
(17:27):
you to have that self. I want you to be
your best friend, coach on your shoulder, talking to yourself,
getting yourself back in the arena every.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Single Yeah, and I love that, and that's definitely what
I'm going to bring into this new year. And I
guess the question too, aram that is, what how do
you do that when the other person doesn't want to
meet you there? If there's someone that you want to have,
you know, a not that kind of relationship, or you
don't want that negativity, if you're how can you how
(17:57):
can you meet there? If that person doesn't want that back?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
You all go up, walk away, welcome. You can't change. Look,
you've got three little ones and they're all different. You
can't make them a certain way. You try your ber right.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I want people cup what you're doing with your book though,
is I'm almost like, guys, well, we don't have to
be angry at each other. Let's all get along and
we don't have to be friends. But can we at
least have like, you know, cordial Well.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
You can say that out loud. Do whatever works. In
other words, there's not a formula to a successful life,
although I do believe this is the formula I eat.
The more we I am heliotropic, my life goes great
when I get angry. I'm full of it. When I'm
you know, some kind of working up a froth about irritation.
(18:39):
You know, you were three minutes late for this podcast.
Took me about thirty two seconds to go get off
at Harry. And that's one of my things, which is
it never ends. So your job is to be the
most magnificent human being you can be, and that's a
full time job. And other people will be moved by that.
(19:02):
If people aren't operating to your liking, well are you
operating to your own liking? If you could say yeah, yeah, yeah,
then let them be who they are. You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Hang out with them, for sure. I think it's just
more hard to see so many people so angry in
this world. That's where I just get frustrated. I'm like,
why do you have to be so angry?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Because they are whatever, lost in their own mental marass
of stupidity. And I say that with compassion. You've been stupid.
Look at you. You were angry at your ex and
then you untangled it from your own inner web. Nothing changed.
He's the same guy, and yet you just untangled whatever
(19:43):
web you had, whatever words and rationalizations you had for
what a no goodneck y was that you got out of.
They'll figure it out too. And if you can be
helpful to them with a hand on their shoulder or
some kind of wisdom, then they'll untangle from their anger.
But you see people who are angry and you go,
oh my god, I used to be angry at my ex.
(20:06):
Let me see if I can be helpful and untangle
him or from their stupidity. Not in the judgmental you're
better than them, but there but for the grace of God,
go I. You just said you were a knucklehead with him.
Now you're not power to you girl?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Is that why you wrote this book? To help people,
you know, getting to that heliotropic state.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yep, it's for me. It's not for I mean, this
is my job for the rest of my life until
I croak, and as many people in the world if
they could get this, Oh my god. You mean it's
as simple as that. Yes, well, yeah, but what about
what about nothing? I got a chapter in there, do
it anyway? There's a million reasons why it's hard to
be helio be heliotropic anyway. I stole that from mother Teresa.
(21:04):
And you know what I mean, it's not do good anyway,
be good anyway? Yeah, but what about when they're what Yeah,
you be generous anyway. What about when people take advantage
of you? Yeah, that's okay, you know what, I'm okay
with that. I'm going to go to my grave feeling
really good about being a good person. And I can
be a better person.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And you can still be a good person and having
boundaries too. You don't want people to walk all over you.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
To definitionally being a good person a good person. No, no,
you can't. You can't. You can't come in the house,
not with those shoes. I'm a very good person, which
means you stay outside with those mney shoes.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Where do you go? Not heliotropic in your life? Because
I'm curious as I get irritated, what's your biggest thing? Like? Yeah,
what you say? You got irritated with? What?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah? You were late for my podcast. I'm a guest.
I'm organizing my late life to do this podcast.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I had to put my baby down. Excuse me, I
have every right you have my life.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, no, but here I am. You're putting your baby
down way more important than me. You know, Well, it's
a schedule for one. That's an small irritation. It's tiny,
But I'm ten times better than I used to be Jenna.
That's when I'm saying it out loud, I'm poking fun
at myself. I used to be way worse. This work
has made me a better person. I get irritated way less.
(22:24):
You asked me, what are my biggest I think when
people don't care, when people are dishonest, when people are
are mean and nasty and disrespectful and unkind, and it
does shock me. And they're in my ecosystem, They're in
my world somehow, And how did I wind up with
this person in my life? And I let them in
(22:45):
or something? And so that's hard for me, Like how
did I create a lot for this person? This is
in my world? But I really work at that of
not being irritated. And when I get irritated, because.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Give us again some little nuggets for us to take
away with that, because you've given us a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Okay, So I say, what else from the book? I
see it? I mean, okay, So every chapter in that
book is a reminder to me. Oh right, I can.
I can take the high road. There's a chapter take
the road. There's chapter smile and move on. When I
get irritated, take a breath, smile, smile, but just too
big a smile and move on. Smiling literally changes you, okay,
(23:35):
you know, be your own best friend, be your own son.
You know that's a tiny eat. By the way, each
chapter is one page. What does that mean? It means
take care of yourself. I do a lot of personal hygiene.
I eat well, exercise, I get outside, I spend time
with loved ones. I am my own son. I watch
myself talk. I watch the words that I say to myself, Harry,
(23:58):
You're such an idiot, you idiot? What what was that?
I'm rattling them off because there's so many and they're
interchangeably good. If I hear myself saying you idiot, because
I'll say that, like, what's that? I'm not? You know,
I just need a mistake, right, And so I love
my ability to up my own game by seeing my
(24:21):
flaws as ooh, those are teachers. Every obstacle is a teacher,
every turd fest, every probect. I can't say that, I mean,
I shouldn't say that, but.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
No, I love no. I love that. I always say that.
It's like every everything. I love sometimes making the mistakes
because I get great lessons from those. Those are the
greatest lessons that's the.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Whole idea, Jenna. You just answered it like, oh that,
let that mistake teach me. What was the lessons? First grade?
Second grade? I got to repeat it? Did I not learn?
How about rushing? How about rushing? Look, I'm at three
million mile delta, I'm a permanent diamond, and I still
rush to the airport. Like, what is up with that?
(25:06):
I think this is the year we'll see that I
don't rush. I mean, how stupid is that? Rushing? That's
dumbest dumb, you know, not dressing properly, not being Oh
I got one for this year. I read it. I
got so many piles of debris that are just messes,
and I allow messes to gobble up my precious energy
(25:31):
so I can clean up my messes or not make them,
you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, And so I
love this work because it's simple. I read a lot,
and I forget most everything I read, but I can
remember be the sun. Not to be kind, Jane. I
want you to spread this to the world. I want
(25:52):
you to be uplifting to yourself mostly really kind to yourself,
no matter what you got through the little nerds to
take care of plus yourself four nerds, four little nerds
to take care of. I want you to be so
compassionate for giving and loving to the four of you
(26:12):
that your life is forever immediately transformed. That this podcast
just sticks with you like a virus that never leaves
a healthy virus. You're immune from getting bummed out. But
your buddy, I love that you're bummed out in this
lasts I don't know a minute, Okay.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, I mean it's a good reminder for everyone to
go into the new year to be the Sun not
the Salt. And I just I love that, and again
I just want like for me again, this year is
all about just shedding that energy of letting other people's
hatefulness come into my sacred space. And so I think
(26:53):
again that's a great reminder, be the Sun not the salt.
And that'll be kind of my mantra for the year.
And I hope it's everyone else's that's listening. So thank you.
And where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
You can find me on Be the Sun Not the Salt,
on your favorite wherever you find podcasts, Be the Sun
Not the Salt. As a website, we try and keep
fresh with new stuff. But we're going to do podcasts
of guests who can tell stories about how this has
helped them.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I love that you want to.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Be a podcast guest. All you got to be is
a good person with a story to tell, and how
Be the Sun Not the Salt has helped you. So
whenever you're ready, if you want to be a guest,
and you say, you know this really helped me. In
twenty twenty three, I met this guy, I read this book,
saw this thing, and it's been so much My life
(27:42):
has been so much better. That story will help a
bunch of people, Janna, So find us on where you
find podcasts Be the Sun Not the Salt, pick up
the book, give it out as a gift. Mostly practice
being that way. And that's my mission and for myself
and for you. And I'm not kidding about that offer
(28:05):
for front row seats at the Big Oh.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I'm going to have my peeps get your info. So
thank you. Will definitely take you up on that. I
really appreciate it. But seriously, thank you, and thanks for
coming on. And I'll see you in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Soon, okay. I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Okay, And I'll be a guest on your podcast and
I'll be three minutes early. All right, So how's that.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
But you have to have a story to tell about
how this really helped.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I will. I will for sure it already has. Thank you,
all right, Bye bye,
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
All right, this Thursday Therapy. We have a doctor Harry
Cohen coming on and I'm really excited. He's got a
book called Be the Sun Not the Salt. Let's get
him on. And then there's a word called heliotropic. Not
really sure what that is, so let's get him on
and we'll find out what it is. Hi, Janna, Hi,
(00:25):
how are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I think the last time we were supposed to talk,
you had.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Something rather I had a baby. I think right, you
had a baby. Yeah. It was either that or I
know I had to cancel a few because I was
having some postpartum Like how are you now? Oh my, now,
you're so sweet for asking. I am. Yeah, I'm good,
I feel I feel good. The emotions have obviously been
all over the place. Do you have kids?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I have two thirty two year old twin boys.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Okay, So was postpartum a thing back then?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
With your wife like it? Did they talk about it
at all? Or was it?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It was it was a show because it was a
section and we were new to parenting and twins and
it was it was very, very different. Most of it
was just a fog of trying to deal with two
little boys, two little babies.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
But you did it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, I'm sure they're they're good. You know. It's it's a.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Journey, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
So how old is what's your story?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So? I have an eight year old almost eight year
old daughter, and then I have a five year old
son and now a let's see when this airs. So
today as we're recording, we're five days before Christmas and
he is five weeks so, you know, it's it's one
of those things where I was just out of it
(01:52):
with my five year old, and so it's kind of
restarting back up again and again. The hormones started really sensitive.
I wasper sensitive, and then all of a sudden, I
think last week I started to just get really agitated,
and I'm like, I don't even know why I'm agitated.
I just am agitated at everything that moves. So I
like went to my therapist and I'm like, I'm so,
(02:14):
I'm like, I'm normally high strung, but I'm on like
I've taken high strung pills and I don't know how
to like calm my nervous system down, you know. And
it was one of those where I'm like, I just
feel like I'm going to explode, and anyone I go to,
I'm like a wrecking ball of just like aggression, and
I'm like, I don't like, I'm like, I don't want
to be this way good good. So we're trying to
(02:38):
figure it out, but have you it's I think it's
again just trying to figure out where why, Like, Okay,
I know it's the the emotions and the hormones regulating.
I also think I again, I love, I'm so happy,
and I love obviously my baby and all the things.
(03:01):
But I think a piece of that aggression felt like
I was trapped again, like oh my gosh, everything is
around yet again, I'm you know, the schedule and feedings
and naps, and I don't have help yet, so I
just felt very I think trapped is the best word
I can think of when I was trying to explain
it to her. And I don't ever like the feeling
(03:22):
of feeling trapped. I get anxious, I lash out. So
that's where I'm just trying to. Now go, Okay, let
me find things that are good for me that I
can go do so I don't feel trapped.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Did your therapist help you.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
She's the best. I love her, but I'm always open
to which is why i have this segment because I'm
always open to learning.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
More So, I have no idea what our agenda is.
I'm happy to do therapy with you if you like,
but I.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Mean, hey, we can have a little dose of this
and a little dose of that, because I want to
talk about your book too, and I need to know
if you're a Michigan fan since you went to Michigan. Duh, okay,
thank you okay, because I'm like, I know some people
that go to you know, U of m are like, no, no, no, I.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Live in I mean, I have two front row seats
and two second row seats.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
If you ever want to do even don't even say
that without because I'm like, I will take you up
on that offer. That's one offer I would take.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Clear, I don't say anything that I don't mean. And
when I say I have two front row and two
second row and I give them away, I don't generally
don't go to the games. I give them away because
the experience for people who've never been to the Big House.
Front row is different and second row is pretty nice.
And and I'm happy to do that I went to
(04:37):
restaurant in town, you know, dinners on me plus two
front row seats, plus an experience at the Big House.
It's easy for me to do so.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I've never been to a game ever.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So so take someone whose mind would be blown and
you know, and we'll organize it and schedule it a web.
Pick a good weather month because it's different.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, you know in October. Well, gret I love this podcast.
This podcast has started out amazing. What a generous offer.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I really a curiosity is one of the qualities that
makes someone heliotropic.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Gradit okay, and that's what I wanted to When I
was reading your breakdown, I started to find myself googling, like,
what is heliotopic? I didn't even I've never even heard
that word before.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, the world will when when we've done our work,
the world will know what it means to be heliotropic.
They'll know what it means to be the sun and
not the salt. It's not complicated. It is why a
plant tilts towards the sun. The sun is a source
of energy, which is why the plant is drawn to it.
And it turns out that human beings are drawn to
(05:49):
heliotropic people, people who provide that source of energy for them,
which is positive, nurturing, good energy, and it comes in
the form of virtuous behaviors. This is empirical. So when
people are kind and generous and compassionate and authentic and
vulnerable and real and all the qualities that we love
(06:09):
about humans, we're drawn to them like the plant is
drawn to the sun. Therefore, we want to surround ourselves
with people like that. We want to be like that,
and it's nurturing and good for the world period. Conversely,
don't be a dick, don't be rude, disrespectful, unkind, lash
(06:30):
out all the ways that human beings can be nasty
to one another. Don't do that. It's salt on the roots.
So in a nutshell, that's this whole mindset, which is,
wait a minute, what you just did. I'm lashing out.
That's not my best self, that's not who I want
to be. Good. That salt on other people's roots makes
(06:51):
them feel horrible, makes you feel horrible too. I want
to be the good person that I know that I
am great. Be that way. Find your way back to
that way of being. It's not complicated me being generous
to you is easy. You know, when you give somebody
a buck, you know, you give tip a server or something,
(07:13):
you're being generous. It's easy. I can be generous. Anybody
can be. I'm not looking for a metal. I'm just
saying that practicing the virtuous behaviors that we love about
humans makes us feel good in the world. Feel good, right,
you know?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I mean I completely agree with that. And so the
book that you wrote is it do you talk a lot?
I mean obviously that the helio how do you say heliotropic?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, helio?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
True? That is that? Is that a new words? Did
you come up with that? Word? Is that has always
been there? I'm like, why why am I just hearing
it now? Because I've heard all the other phrases and words.
I know.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Professor Kim Cameron, he wrote one of the endorsements on
the back. We've done a podcast with people who are
heliotropic who want to be better people. He was one
of our first guests and he coined the expression. And
he's a Ross Business School, Michigan Business School professor, and
he researched positive energizers and corporations and what is it
about these people that make corporations more successful these leaders.
(08:12):
It's what he coined the expression heliotropic positive energizer. So
I stole it from him with his blessing and popularizing
it in the form of be the sun. Be like
the sun as opposed to the salt. So that's where
it comes from. But if you look up heliotropic, if
you know chet gpt it or Wikipedia, it'll describe qualities
(08:36):
of sunlight uplifting.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Why do you think most people go to the salt
of people as opposed.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
To There's a lot of reasons for it. We're wired
and geared to see the glass half empty. When a
branch snaps in the forest, we don't think it's a
good thing. So there's a natural inherent bias to go
to the negative. The negative stings long, stings and last longer. However,
(09:16):
cultural phenomenon and pep phenomenon and people can make us
more negative. Media is terrible, you know, if it leads,
it leads people like to gossip, people like to talk
about others' flaws and faults, and that's again human nature.
So we have to guard against the tendency, the human
(09:38):
tendency to do things that are of the negative. And
that's all why, because it's human nature, because it's easier
because the cultural norms around us. Because people like to bitch,
people like to complain, people like to talk about other people,
people like to point out flaws. You can see it
in other people. You need to notice it when you're
getting all cranky. Wait a minute, this what's going on here.
(10:03):
It's a natural tendency like gravity. You know, if you
put a lot of food in front of somebody, they're
gonna overeat. You know, we got bad habits and good habits.
You have to, you know, work on being you know
better habitual person, good person. Don't make it complicated. The
whole thing Jenna about this is don't over overthink this,
(10:24):
Just do the next right thing. After you screw up
to your credit, you recognized you were being cranky and
you said this ain't me. I got to go get help.
What I would say to you is, don't complicate it.
Do the next right thing for yourself or someone else.
They're interchangeable. If you need to take a break, take
a break. If you need to get some help, get
(10:44):
some help. If you need to you know, wind down,
wind get it, get it. Yeah, But I mean that
in the don't make it hard for anyone or anybody else,
like the tiniest things. And you said I was generous
and kind. That's very nice. It's not that hard to
be generous and kind. Here's what I just recently learned,
(11:06):
which is, you know what the hard part about this?
There isn't any There's no hard part about this. None
not hard to be a nice person. It's not hard
to take a break. It's not hard to you know,
you made a boo boo. Yes it is, No, it isn't.
You know what I mean? You noticed it in a heartbeat.
(11:26):
You said, I'm being all all, I'm lashing out. The
minute you lashed out, you said, wait a minute, that's
not how I want to be. Something's up. You're right,
figure it out and knock it off, which you did.
And I asked you it was your therapist helpful because
you know I was a therapist, and I know sometimes
I can be helpful sometimes not. The goal is to
(11:48):
be helpful, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Other, what other tangible tip could you say? Because I
think when I heard you say the glass half empty,
I do go that way most times where I and
I'm learning and trying to flip that to go no,
I'm gonna this next year or this year is going
to be very fulfilling, it's going to be a great year.
(12:13):
It's going to be a successful year. Instead of going, well,
I haven't gotten that role yet, or you know, it's
where I just I go to that kind of pessimistic
been in this for a long time, like.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Rotation, don't go first of all, don't go into a
full year. Do it today, do it the next minute,
do the next hour. Do it in this conversation. The
minute you hear yourself go into the you know, go
to the dark side, say wait a minute, I just
I just noticed that. Oh yeah, I don't need to
do that. And from shift your minds and your mindset
from get to to got to mm hmm instead of
(12:52):
I'm sorry, got to to get to? You say, oh
I did I meant to say get to God? Got
to to get to I made mistake? So what you
know what I mean? Like, oh I gotta go to work? No, no, no,
I get to go to work. Oh it didn't happen.
Oh well, So when you hear yourself go negative, let
your negativity be your best friend. When you wanted the
(13:14):
practical tip, the minute you go dark the minute you
go to your dark about Oh, I remember that guy
Harry said that. Let it be a little reminder, like
a little dude, dude, you got this, Thank you, You're welcome.
So the negativity is your friend because you can shift
it in a split second. Oh I just said that.
I just said I got to No, wait a minute,
(13:37):
I mean, where are your kids right now? Where's the
little baby who's watching.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The baby baby's napping? This is nap hour?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Oh beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, so I schedule things, you know, to make sure.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Okay, where's the five.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Five year old is actually with their dad today?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Beautiful? Yeah, so this quiet, beautiful respite and the baby's sleeping.
As soon as that baby cries. If you feel yourself
go oh no, okay, if you heard yourself go oh no,
it's a he or.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Sheet, it's a boy. But I just felt myself get
and this is just what happened their day. When I
was recording an audition, I'm in this. It's his nap time.
I'm recording for auditioning for what probably one of the
biggest movies I've ever auditioned for. I hear him crying,
and I'm like, no, I immediately I'm like no, no, no, no,
like you have to go back to like and I'm
stressing out and then I just go straight into that
(14:26):
panic aggression stress out mode.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, hold on a second. So let's just use as
an example that is going to happen. That is going
to happen a million times. So when it does, this
isn't your first rodeo. Oh man, the body's going to
do its thing. The body will do its thing. You're
not going to stop the body from reacting. You know,
they say, don't get nervous. Everybody gets nervous. You fled
is to let the channel, lets that by thely reaction,
(14:50):
reframe it in your mind. I'm going to get the
butterflies to fly information not gonna not have butterflies. It's like,
oh boy, all right, let's go rock and roll. Use
yourself talk, say I got this, not my first rodeo.
Whatever words you can use to say, Hey, I'm a mom.
If they don't want me as a mom, too bad,
I'm good. I got this self talk. You know, take
(15:12):
a breath, take take another one, take three, say out loud,
I hope you don't mind that. My baby's well, my
heart's to thumping because my baby just cried. I hope
you don't just be vulnerable and gutsy and throw yourself
into your work and your role and to your you know,
(15:32):
your life and let the chips fall where they may.
You can control what you can control. You can't control
anything else. If they don't want you, to screw it,
you'll get another role and another role. That's the nature
of this business. They're gonna say yes, they're going to
say no. They're gonna say yes, they're gonna say no,
we don't.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Care, which is where I think I've become a little
half empty. Two is the just then amounts of rejection
and the the uh you know, the social media and
the bully, all those things become. But now I again,
once I turned forty and once it's like there's there's
(16:11):
a shift and going, Okay, this life is too short.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You got it, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
To ever have. And that's the same thing with my ex.
I hated his guts for at least well for a
long time, but when we even got divorced, I mean
I was I just had I just every morning I
woke up and I just I hated him. And now
I'm like that was such a disservice to myself because
good now and now we're great, we have a great relationship.
(16:36):
Everything is used because I'm like, I'd rather be friends.
I don't want why why would I hate him? It's
I don't want that energy in my body. I don't
I don't want it for the kids.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
It's just look, see, this is what I mean by
doing the next right thing is beautiful. You can use
every single success in your life to propel you to
the next one, and every single failure to go, oh good,
I mean that story is just beautiful. What you transmuted
relationship with your ex. Do that fifty thousand more times
as best you can. You just told me this beautiful
(17:06):
success story of you and your ex. Yes, do more
of that. When you get rejected, you go, you know,
I handle that rejection pretty well. Good for you. At
least I got an audition. At least I got a shot.
Some people don't get an audition. You've got an audition
and they rejected you. Rock and roll. I I want
(17:27):
you to have that self. I want you to be
your best friend, coach on your shoulder, talking to yourself,
getting yourself back in the arena every.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Single Yeah, and I love that, and that's definitely what
I'm going to bring into this new year. And I
guess the question too, aram that is, what how do
you do that when the other person doesn't want to
meet you there? If there's someone that you want to have,
you know, a not that kind of relationship, or you
don't want that negativity, if you're how can you how
(17:57):
can you meet there? If that person doesn't want that back?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
You all go up, walk away, welcome. You can't change. Look,
you've got three little ones and they're all different. You
can't make them a certain way. You try your ber right.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I want people cup what you're doing with your book though,
is I'm almost like, guys, well, we don't have to
be angry at each other. Let's all get along and
we don't have to be friends. But can we at
least have like, you know, cordial Well.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
You can say that out loud. Do whatever works. In
other words, there's not a formula to a successful life,
although I do believe this is the formula I eat.
The more we I am heliotropic, my life goes great
when I get angry. I'm full of it. When I'm
you know, some kind of working up a froth about irritation.
(18:39):
You know, you were three minutes late for this podcast.
Took me about thirty two seconds to go get off
at Harry. And that's one of my things, which is
it never ends. So your job is to be the
most magnificent human being you can be, and that's a
full time job. And other people will be moved by that.
(19:02):
If people aren't operating to your liking, well are you
operating to your own liking? If you could say yeah, yeah, yeah,
then let them be who they are. You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Hang out with them, for sure. I think it's just
more hard to see so many people so angry in
this world. That's where I just get frustrated. I'm like,
why do you have to be so angry?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Because they are whatever, lost in their own mental marass
of stupidity. And I say that with compassion. You've been stupid.
Look at you. You were angry at your ex and
then you untangled it from your own inner web. Nothing changed.
He's the same guy, and yet you just untangled whatever
(19:43):
web you had, whatever words and rationalizations you had for
what a no goodneck y was that you got out of.
They'll figure it out too. And if you can be
helpful to them with a hand on their shoulder or
some kind of wisdom, then they'll untangle from their anger.
But you see people who are angry and you go,
oh my god, I used to be angry at my ex.
(20:06):
Let me see if I can be helpful and untangle
him or from their stupidity. Not in the judgmental you're
better than them, but there but for the grace of God,
go I. You just said you were a knucklehead with him.
Now you're not power to you girl?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Is that why you wrote this book? To help people,
you know, getting to that heliotropic state.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yep, it's for me. It's not for I mean, this
is my job for the rest of my life until
I croak, and as many people in the world if
they could get this, Oh my god. You mean it's
as simple as that. Yes, well, yeah, but what about
what about nothing? I got a chapter in there, do
it anyway? There's a million reasons why it's hard to
be helio be heliotropic anyway. I stole that from mother Teresa.
(21:04):
And you know what I mean, it's not do good anyway,
be good anyway? Yeah, but what about when they're what Yeah,
you be generous anyway. What about when people take advantage
of you? Yeah, that's okay, you know what, I'm okay
with that. I'm going to go to my grave feeling
really good about being a good person. And I can
be a better person.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And you can still be a good person and having
boundaries too. You don't want people to walk all over you.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
To definitionally being a good person a good person. No, no,
you can't. You can't. You can't come in the house,
not with those shoes. I'm a very good person, which
means you stay outside with those mney shoes.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Where do you go? Not heliotropic in your life? Because
I'm curious as I get irritated, what's your biggest thing? Like? Yeah,
what you say? You got irritated with? What?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah? You were late for my podcast. I'm a guest.
I'm organizing my late life to do this podcast.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I had to put my baby down. Excuse me, I
have every right you have my life.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, no, but here I am. You're putting your baby
down way more important than me. You know, Well, it's
a schedule for one. That's an small irritation. It's tiny,
But I'm ten times better than I used to be Jenna.
That's when I'm saying it out loud, I'm poking fun
at myself. I used to be way worse. This work
has made me a better person. I get irritated way less.
(22:24):
You asked me, what are my biggest I think when
people don't care, when people are dishonest, when people are
are mean and nasty and disrespectful and unkind, and it
does shock me. And they're in my ecosystem, They're in
my world somehow, And how did I wind up with
this person in my life? And I let them in
(22:45):
or something? And so that's hard for me, Like how
did I create a lot for this person? This is
in my world? But I really work at that of
not being irritated. And when I get irritated, because.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Give us again some little nuggets for us to take
away with that, because you've given us a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Okay, So I say, what else from the book? I
see it? I mean, okay, So every chapter in that
book is a reminder to me. Oh right, I can.
I can take the high road. There's a chapter take
the road. There's chapter smile and move on. When I
get irritated, take a breath, smile, smile, but just too
big a smile and move on. Smiling literally changes you, okay,
(23:35):
you know, be your own best friend, be your own son.
You know that's a tiny eat. By the way, each
chapter is one page. What does that mean? It means
take care of yourself. I do a lot of personal hygiene.
I eat well, exercise, I get outside, I spend time
with loved ones. I am my own son. I watch
myself talk. I watch the words that I say to myself, Harry,
(23:58):
You're such an idiot, you idiot? What what was that?
I'm rattling them off because there's so many and they're
interchangeably good. If I hear myself saying you idiot, because
I'll say that, like, what's that? I'm not? You know,
I just need a mistake, right, And so I love
my ability to up my own game by seeing my
(24:21):
flaws as ooh, those are teachers. Every obstacle is a teacher,
every turd fest, every probect. I can't say that, I mean,
I shouldn't say that, but.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
No, I love no. I love that. I always say that.
It's like every everything. I love sometimes making the mistakes
because I get great lessons from those. Those are the
greatest lessons that's the.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Whole idea, Jenna. You just answered it like, oh that,
let that mistake teach me. What was the lessons? First grade?
Second grade? I got to repeat it? Did I not learn?
How about rushing? How about rushing? Look, I'm at three
million mile delta, I'm a permanent diamond, and I still
rush to the airport. Like, what is up with that?
(25:06):
I think this is the year we'll see that I
don't rush. I mean, how stupid is that? Rushing? That's
dumbest dumb, you know, not dressing properly, not being Oh
I got one for this year. I read it. I
got so many piles of debris that are just messes,
and I allow messes to gobble up my precious energy
(25:31):
so I can clean up my messes or not make them,
you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, And so I
love this work because it's simple. I read a lot,
and I forget most everything I read, but I can
remember be the sun. Not to be kind, Jane. I
want you to spread this to the world. I want
(25:52):
you to be uplifting to yourself mostly really kind to yourself,
no matter what you got through the little nerds to
take care of plus yourself four nerds, four little nerds
to take care of. I want you to be so
compassionate for giving and loving to the four of you
(26:12):
that your life is forever immediately transformed. That this podcast
just sticks with you like a virus that never leaves
a healthy virus. You're immune from getting bummed out. But
your buddy, I love that you're bummed out in this
lasts I don't know a minute, Okay.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, I mean it's a good reminder for everyone to
go into the new year to be the Sun not
the Salt. And I just I love that, and again
I just want like for me again, this year is
all about just shedding that energy of letting other people's
hatefulness come into my sacred space. And so I think
(26:53):
again that's a great reminder, be the Sun not the salt.
And that'll be kind of my mantra for the year.
And I hope it's everyone else's that's listening. So thank you.
And where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
You can find me on Be the Sun Not the Salt,
on your favorite wherever you find podcasts, Be the Sun
Not the Salt. As a website, we try and keep
fresh with new stuff. But we're going to do podcasts
of guests who can tell stories about how this has
helped them.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I love that you want to.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Be a podcast guest. All you got to be is
a good person with a story to tell, and how
Be the Sun Not the Salt has helped you. So
whenever you're ready, if you want to be a guest,
and you say, you know this really helped me. In
twenty twenty three, I met this guy, I read this book,
saw this thing, and it's been so much My life
(27:42):
has been so much better. That story will help a
bunch of people, Janna, So find us on where you
find podcasts Be the Sun Not the Salt, pick up
the book, give it out as a gift. Mostly practice
being that way. And that's my mission and for myself
and for you. And I'm not kidding about that offer
(28:05):
for front row seats at the Big Oh.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I'm going to have my peeps get your info. So
thank you. Will definitely take you up on that. I
really appreciate it. But seriously, thank you, and thanks for
coming on. And I'll see you in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Soon, okay. I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Okay, And I'll be a guest on your podcast and
I'll be three minutes early. All right, So how's that.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
But you have to have a story to tell about
how this really helped.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I will. I will for sure it already has. Thank you,
all right, Bye bye,
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