April 17, 2023 • 44 mins
Jason Wahler (Laguna Beach, The Hills) joins Jana and her friends for a raw and honest conversation about addiction, mental health, and the path to recovery.
Jason shares the difficult memory of how he knew his life needed to change, and he opens up about how other people can find a way to sobriety, even if it feels impossible.
Plus, Jason reveals the Laguna Beach and The Hills cast members with whom he recently made amends!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
If we could only record the pre chat and the
post chat, that would just be that's the money maker
because you just go you can say it. Actually it's
kind of funny.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Well not that part, but okay, I go, well, it's
with Jana Kramer and friend Kat says you're the boss
to Jana and I said yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I go yep, which is true.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
But you just don't usually don't ever do like skirt
around it.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Well, no, yeah, today we are and friends yep.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Glad to be here. Yeah, but then he said, but
what's his face? Still has his?
Speaker 4 (00:39):
I won't say it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We get so many messages all the time. Why is like,
I don't know why either. Actually going on there, quick
check up before our amazing guest joins the show. You
can say hi though, Jason, come in.
Speaker 5 (00:53):
How it is great to be here, Oh Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
We're so happy to have the house.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Very true.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I like that we are house.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
We are so excited to have Jason Waller on the
show with us. And we're going to get into it.
But how is everyone's easter.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Good?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, it was tiring, it was great.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Speaking of Tyran.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Did you make everybody happy in your family. We'll see
we showed up.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Okay, revisiting therapy and cat will know the real truth
of Easter.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Did you divorce your husband?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I made it through three days of Disney at thirty
weeks pregnant, forty one years old.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I just want high five nights.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
That's very impressive, that's incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, fun you guys.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
My ankles were so swollen at the end of the day.
I felt like I almost got one of those motorized carts.
But I felt like there's somebody that needed it more
than me. It was really something, but we did it.
The happiest place on earth is my bathtub. But my
kids had the best play.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You can have that you can do a bath with
the baby.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I mean I have been, Okay, I guess third time.
Everyone's just like when you get to the third y're just.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I thought you couldn't have a bath with a baby, so.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I always I never took bats with the other I
think it's past a certain point.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Maybe, Okay, I don't.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
We're going to find out because everyone will write to you.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
No no, no, no, no no. I just know they will.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
On Instagram, they'll write to me, all the obi's will
come out, the secret ob listeners will come out.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
How was your Easter? Well, he has risen. Indeed, he
has risen. Indeed, it was great. We went over to
Sarah Bryce's house. We had church. It was lovely. I
wasn't supposed to have the kids, but it was awesome.
Mix let me have them. And it was like the
best weekend ever. And uh it got out there They're like, oh,
(02:44):
seemingly Alan has met the kids because Jolie. We took
Jolie to a soccer game, but like all supposed to
photo of Alan and then and then like the photo
and then so, yes, he's met the kids.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And Alan's not going to be where soccer is anyway,
I know, right.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
But it went great and the kids love him and
it's been awesome. Good yeah, yeah, good, Okay, David.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I know now.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
Easter it was fantastic. We actually went to church on Saturday,
so we had the whole Sunday off and we were
outside for the first time like all day, eight hours.
We had two water balloon flights. We went through I
think like four hundred and fifty water balloons and just
this was like just acted like a kid and we
just had the best time a couple of e strike
hunts and spent time with the kids and the wife
(03:34):
and just relaxed.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You've been married for how many years now?
Speaker 5 (03:37):
Oh my gosh, coming up on ten. Our anniversary's ten,
twelve thirteen.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, so coming to Ashley.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Ashley, we have two babies.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Two babies. I got Delilah who is five, and Wyatt
who is geez almost two two in June.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
So that's really been something. Yeah, two year old boys
or something.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Yes, it is. He's in that phase right now where
it's he wants to do everything and if you don't
let him, he he just loses. So it's it's it's interesting.
It's a process and I'm learning slowly, but surely that's
for sure.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Right around two is when I felt like legend and
I needed our own couples counselor So I'm going to
talk to your wife and you just moved here from California.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Yes, we just got here almost a year ago to date,
moved from Laguna Beach and absolutely living it out here.
You know, we came out here to slow our lives
down and just you know, to get out of the
rift draft of southern California, and we had.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
The Laguna Beach is just horrible.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
It's beautiful, but it's really it's different, well it's different
than it is. I mean, it's a great place, the
best childhood I ever had, but honestly, it's just it's
just different and it's not the way that I had
grown up. I mean, just when we moved here, Just
to put it into perspective, this hasn't happened in twenty
plus years since I lived there. Within the first twenty
four hours of us moving into our house, three little
girls came and knocked on our door and asked my
(04:53):
daughter to come out and play. And like, that's kind
of one of those things where I looked at my
wife and I was like, we made the right decision
and just kind of have that more wholesome vibe. And again,
as I go back, I got twenty two family members
that still live in from Laguna to Coasta Mesa, so
I'm there often. But I just if we were going
to do it, we thought the time was now. The
kids were young. We weren't going to uproot them. If
we didn't like it, you know, we could move back.
(05:15):
But also some little bit of backstory or history to
this is my grandfather actually grew up off of Moors
Lane in Brentwood.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
I grew up on Moors Lane.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Let's go, oh my cash. Yeah, and then my whole
my mom was born in Memphis, and then I got
three I think three generations or four generations from Tennessee
on my mom's side.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
So so it feels rooted.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Is anyone still here though right now or no?
Speaker 5 (05:36):
Yeah? So I have great aunts and uncles who live
up by Tim's Ford. I have some family in Clarksville
kind of like scattered around, but yeah, just a few relatives.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It is very cozy here. People love on each other.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
It is The people are incredible. I mean, I didn't know.
I'll never forget the drive when I was coming out here.
So Ashley and the kids and mother in law, they
all flew out here, and I remember driving with me
and my dog. It was a little trailer behind like
with our personal stuff, and I was like going through
New Mexico, I'm like what am I doing? Like it
was just like that real like we're just kind of
(06:11):
broke down and like, dude, I'm literally leaving it and
it disdn't hit me until then. But honestly, I was
just asked the other day, you know what I do.
I want to move back, and I really don't. It's
almost a grieving process because that's all I've known for
thirty five years was Orange County.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Is there a piece of you because of everything that
you went through? Is does that piece hold on to
not wanting to go back because of like who you
were there?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
No.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
I think I've done so much work on myself that
I've really processed and gone through that where I'm really
comfortable with where I'm at, like physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
And I think through all that work, it's a lot
to me the opportunity to make a decision to actually
be at a place to be like, hey, let's get
up and move because I never thought that would be
a part of the process. But that's just a testimony
(07:01):
of when you put in the hard work, what can
really come to fruition. Because if I didn't do the
work I did on myself, I wouldn't never have left there.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, it's interesting too, because one of our friends had
said this, some of the most healing work that she's
ever done was going back to the places that broke
her the most, and also realizing like who you are today,
Like so when you go back, you have to be
so proud of who you are versus how you were then.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, I did. Ah. I was on a interview yesterday
and to look at, you know, a kid that was
struggling severely with addiction, was very lost and just in
a in a really deep dark place. I mean, my
addiction drove me not to contemplation, but attempting suicide. And
(07:45):
just you know, I grew up you have to understand,
I think, putting that into context, I grew up this happy,
outgoing kid who loved surfing, skateboarding, snowboarding, was always outdoors
and a depth of my addiction, it was me by myself,
you know, in a room, and so it was a
very lonely, miserable place. And so to be able to
kind of pause and process through all the treatment centers
(08:06):
I went through, through all the trials and tribulations with
the law and just my own internal battles with the
people I hurt. All this stuff, there was a lot there.
I always joke like, I'm going to be making amends
for the rest of my life, just because of all
the destruction I did, but to actually really be honest
with myself, like I'm so proud of where I am
at today, like to be able to look in the
mirror and to be happy with what I see. I'm
(08:28):
comfortable in my own skin. And for years and years,
I never was in that spot. And you know, after
doing so much work, I was able to actually identify
that I struggled with addiction and alcoholism way before I
ever picked up the drink or the drug, and that
you know, twelve or thirteen years old, I had struggled
severely with OCD to the point where I'd washed my
hands till they would bleed, and I'd have to wear
(08:50):
deopren gloves at night, and I'd have to put you know,
put them in with niaspoorne in them to let my
hands heal. But on the outside, so that was what
was going on behind closed doors. But on the outside,
I was the popular kid. I was always good at
sports and kind of had to live this double life,
which ultimately led me to you know, even with seeing
psychiatrists and therapist and having really good support, I got
(09:10):
a much more alleviation from substances, and it was That's
what I was using as my solution, was alcohol, right
to take away that pain and what I had felt,
even though I was seeing doctors. And but again at
twelve thirteen, how are you able to, you know, not
knowing what we know today, how you able to try
to process that type of stuff at that age? And
so I never was able to get really fully open
(09:31):
and honest. And so it's been a journey.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You know, it's for those people that don't know the journey.
How long were you an active addiction?
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Oh God, I'd say I really started struggling about sixteen
or seventeen years old, and then it that when the
show started, I was shortly thereafter. So I think I
started filming probably when I was like seventeen, Laguna Beach,
and then it went from sixteen to I mean bad
until twenty three. Was able to get sober July twenty third,
(10:01):
twenty ten, had five years of sobriety, and then went
out on pharmaceutical synthetic grade meth aka adderall and that
took me down really, really bad, to the point of
where on and off it wasn't like a three year
benders like I'd have a few months sober. I just
wasn't willing to get open and honest. But that landed
(10:21):
me at the first floor in Hook Hospital Detox. You want,
Ashley was giving birth to Delilah on the third or
fourth floor, and.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So I saw that in our video that we did
and that was like, as when you look back now,
I mean, now you can show your daughter, Okay, this
is you know your daddy is healthier, But is there
a piece of view that struggles with that knowing that
you weren't there for your wife in that moment.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Yeah, it was a very.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Like how do you make amends with that with yourself?
Speaker 5 (10:53):
I guess or I mean forgiveness is one of the
most powerful tools, right and I can't hold onto those
types of things. I have to. I believe your greatest
setbacks so the greatest opportunity for your comeback. And you
know it's looking it's so crazy to think that your
biggest deficits are your greatest assets, and like that is
a big motivating factor. Like even though I was physically there,
(11:16):
literally went from the first floor up the elevator to
watch my daughter be born. But you and that's how cunning,
baffling and powerful addiction is. You'd think that would be
enough to stop. But I didn't actively arrest the disease
or get stabilized right. I was in detox for two days.
I went home with the family and back at it
again four or five days later. And it was about
a six month on and off process where I actually
(11:37):
was finally intervened on and I had to go back
into treatment. I mean, I did the full thing that
I needed to do.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Is that when it was over, did you still go
back again?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
That was when it was really over. That was kind
of the real surrender. And then kind of the to
give you the full scope of everything is right after that,
like a little bit long, like probably I don't know.
Nine months down the road, the Hills came back and
there's an opportunity to come back on television and again,
as I thought, this would be a really good opportunity
to share our story. And I think by expressing vulnerability
(12:07):
at creates humility and it allows an opportunity for people
to connect. And actually had her own story and I
had my story, and I thought this would be really powerful.
But it was a huge decision because we're like, we
love our life where it's at. We want to really
go and do this, but I believe that it was
kind of God's opportunity from being who I used to
be to show how much I had changed. Because even
that relapse and stuff happened, I don't discredit all the
(12:27):
work that I've done. I was a different person still,
and I think that was just a part of that journey.
And so I ended up experiencing just a lot of
a lot of my own stuff came up again, insecurities,
I was overweight, you know, and just going back on television,
it was just, you know, just image, right, self image
(12:49):
was just kind of something I was struggling with. And
so we were already shooting and then that stuff started
to percolate. I did not reach out to not talk
to anybody, and I'd taken a pill I drank, and
then I called doctor Drew and got open and honest.
And so that was a huge difference, Right. I'm not
justifying my me doing that, but I have the tools
(13:09):
and the resources. I should have reached out to somebody
way before I ever picked up. And because a relapse
manifest way before you're actually picking it up, it's like
the dominoes falling. And so at that point I got
open and honest, and I started talking about it right
away because I did not want it to go down
that road, and so it was I call it a lapse,
if you will. If that didn't happen, i'd have over
five years, But I have three years of sobriety now,
(13:31):
and that was the last time that that had ever happened.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
When they say in what the meetings, like, you realize
your life became has become unmanageable. You basically got intervened.
So a lot of times when they say, like, interventions
don't work because you're not ready yet, right, So was
there a moment where you're like, what made your life
go okay, it's unmanageable? Like obviously because it's like what
(14:09):
the people were saying to you in the intervention. Or
was it just like because I've been told that his
interventions don't work that well because they're not ready yet.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
It's every different strokes different folks, right, And I think
if you have the right team and the right support,
I think you can really help navigate that into getting
people and guiding them because a lot of people that
are in those states are literally at a place so
they've lost the right to make their own decisions, so
they don't even know what's right or not. So I'll
share with you what really when I call my entering
into recovery was back in twenty ten, because you have
(14:41):
to remember, had everything society says amazing, whether it's notoriety, fame, access,
all these different things, and you know, I hated life.
I mean I tried taking my own life. And I'll
never forget the moment, which I call my moment of clarity,
when I was sitting in a therapist's office just like
this with my mom and dad. My mom and dad
looked across from me. This is We've done this a
(15:04):
hundred of times. There was nothing that was unique about this,
but there was something happened here. My dad just looked
at me, and I've never seen him breakdown besides when
his mom had passed away, and he just looks across
and he goes, Jason, we don't know what to do anymore.
You know, our marriage is suffering. The family is just
a complete that we were totally lost, and Mom and
I weigh Mom and I lay in bed like two
(15:26):
planks of wood, waiting for the phone call that you're dead.
And whatever that was, there was something that came very
clear to me, and that became my motivating factor. Is like,
I didn't care enough about myself to want to do
it before I taking my life, and so it's kind
of like what else is there to look for? But
thank God for the family dynamic that I had had
and the parents that I had had growing up in
(15:47):
just that sense of respect, and they became my motivating factor.
And so that was the moment where I really transitioned.
And then, you know, months down the road, after I'd
committed myself, I was open, I was willing, I was
willing to take direction. I got honest. You know, after
my life started to change. About six months down the road,
I really saw that this was something I wanted to
do for myself. And that's where my real journey started.
(16:09):
And so every situation is different, Every situation is unique.
There is not a one size fits all model and
it's a very individualized process. And so like again, is
how I got there maybe different than how you would
have gotten there, right, And so it's taking that into
account and looking at people's background, their history, their you know,
the environment and the things that had happened to them
as their pre genetic disposition there's so many different things
(16:31):
that can go into effect with it.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And well you kind of said too like a lot
of times people are like great childhood, the wounds and
the trauma, but sounds like you had a great childhood too,
So it's like, well, then, why why did this happen?
Or how did I do this? Or like trying to
find that like why I must have been frustrating too.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Well, I'm Cherokee, German and Irish. I should have had
a stamp on the wound when saying this kid cannot
use anything, but no, they're the pre genetic disposition of
my family is half my family struggles with addiction in
our mental health. So it's like again, as I had,
that's what's I didn't have any of that crazy childhood
trauma or you know, the environmental stuff like I had
(17:08):
a very if anything, I had a very amazing childhood.
And so it's where it wasn't really didn't line up,
but struggling with the mental health and stuff that that's
now where it makes a clear picture is that was
kind of outside the context and through doctor Amen, who
I am starting to work with now, I had found
out that I had had potentially had pandas, which is
(17:29):
basically a PDA. I forget the acronym of what it is,
which I should know that, but it's basically caused by
strep throat, which is a piece that actually will attack
a part of your brain that can trigger OCD. And
had I known that a long time ago, who knows
what have kind of would have happened. But it's it's
crazy to kind of see how I went down and
(17:50):
navigated that wrote as a young adolescent.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
So when you're young, and I'm glad you mentioned your parents,
because I was. That was one of my questions, like
where were they in all of this and how active
were they and when, like when was the first time
that they noticed anything like the hand washing all the things.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
My parents are very involved. So I mean my mom likes,
right when she saw me, she saw my hands and
she's like, what the what's because I'd go like this
and they'd just crack and they'd just bleed and stuff,
and so she's a she's psychiatrist. I mean, they were
part of that whole process. And I mean I started
seeing somebody at twelve thirteen years old, whenever it was
that timeframe when I was in there and they did
(18:26):
everything that they possibly couldn't what they were equipped with,
and they were along that ride in that process, and
you know, and I was even a part of it.
And that's how close we were. At sixteen, sixteen and
a half years old, when I went to Provo, Utah
to wilderness camp into a boarding school. I was wasn't
like I was kidnapped in the middle of the night.
I mean I made that decision with them, like hey,
I'm kind of going down the wrong road, like let's
(18:47):
course correct this. But after being out there for a
little bit of time, I was able to manipulate my
way back and being like, yeah, this ain't the right fit,
let's get back. And so and that's where they struggled,
is they you know, wherever there's an alcoholic or an addict,
there's a codependent and sometimes are just as sick, if
not sicker. And my parents were really harming me in
areas when they thought they were doing good, like not
to their own acre. They you know, they didn't have
(19:08):
the knowledge, and so when they were they were throwing
pillows when I really should have fallen in certain areas,
and that progressively got worse. But also then fast forwarding through,
you know, going on television. It's like at eighteen years old,
when you're the most impressionable and the most impulsive, like
and you're an adult, there's only so much control they have, right,
(19:29):
and so we had instant success. And so like usually
what your parents have some type of financial restraint on
you to a degree if you're going to college or
different things, they can kind of, you know, manage that process.
And it was like either join me or ziya. Yeah,
and so that's kind of how you know, they just
I respected them, but I was also I was super
super super sick, and all I cared about was the
(19:53):
next drink and the next drug.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
When you talked about amends in the show, is there
anyone did you have to have amends with a lot
of people from the show?
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Yeah, I made amends. I wish I could talk to
you about something that we all just did, but I
can't right now. There's something there's something cool coming out,
but I can't say anything about it. But I've made
amends to say every girlfriend on the show's there was
(20:24):
a few.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Few, were there any that didn't accept the amends?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
I think the thing that people don't realize is like
when I was the drunkenrol when I was drinking and stuff.
That's that's what That's what it was. But also I
think when I was sober. When I was sober, people
got to see who I really was so and I
don't think the media or the viewers of the show's
ever got to see that other side. And so I
think even like when I've reconnected with like Kristen and
(20:53):
Steven and all the people that I have over these
last few years are just like, God, this is the
guy that we knew, you know what I mean, it
was just you were lost and and so I think
that the short answers know that they were just they're
really happy and proud to see where I'm at today.
And I think, honestly they're more surprised and shocked how
much I've changed because it was pretty bad.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Well it's also twenty years ago, right, almost twenty Like,
I mean.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
You're started, Yeah, I'm thirty six now.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I mean it's they've all changed too, Yeah, yes, yes,
a lot of grace, I would assume, Yes, everyone's growing journey.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I think that with the amens too. I think it's
a beautiful thing because it's not like you're like I've
had to make amends with certain people, and I've even
said to them, I'm not asking for you to say
it's okay, or I forgive you or any of those things.
I'm just telling you, like you know that I'm sorry
I handle this wrong, that was wrong with me. No
excuses are made. And you know, the person that I
did do this too a couple of months ago, they're like,
(21:50):
it's okay.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
I'm like, no, no, it's not okay, you know, but no,
it's take it's keeping your side of the street clean, right,
and it's taking ownership and accountability. And I love I
mean the way that I approach amends is most identical
to that is I take full ownership and accountability for
what I did. I'm not justifying my actions, but whatever
I can do to make it right and better, please
let me know, you know. And it's it's sometimes and
(22:10):
I've had trust me over the course of time. There's people.
Not everybody's responded as gracefully. Some people just are like thanks,
but no thanks, you know. But I'd say more so
than not, people have been very receptive to it. But
for me and my process and my recovery program, it's
just keeping my side of this streakly and I have
no control or I can't have an expectation on the
outcome of it. That's not why I'm doing it. It's
(22:32):
really to do the work and to make things right.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
So right now, you're very which I love. That's how
because we met at Jason and I met at an
airport in LA and we ended up talking the entire flight,
like the only time I ever took a middle seat, right,
Cat ye yeah, Kin's like, oh yeah, I get the window.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
I'm like, oh, we're here reading a book while they
talk it all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
But it was so nice just to connect with someone
who was so open and vulnerable, and I loved hearing
your story and getting to know you. And since that flight,
I've been able to be a part of some of
the stuff that you're doing with mental health, and I
just I love what you're doing, and I appreciate what
you're doing because you're helping a lot of people and
you're going to help even more with the doctor, amen
(23:14):
and everything else that you're doing. But you know, because
you are still in recovery right every day is a
new day, and it's something that you have to continue
to work on. Is there a piece where sometimes you
feel like what sometimes makes you feel like, oh my god,
I feel like I'm slipping a little bit, and like,
how do you kind of stay back on track?
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Great question. I love that I've developed and built a
program by looking at it from structure and consistency creates safety.
And I think if you have kids that you can
you can kind of look at that as the same
thing when a kid's on routine, he wakes up as
his morning breakfast, he has his nappy, he's usually typically
pretty good, and the same thing with adults. And so
(23:55):
I've incorporated that within my life. And so to answer
your first question, is having that connection with myself when
I'm getting overwhelmed or when I'm stressed, being able to
identify and what that looks like. I always believe it's
I live like a triple A modality. It's awareness, acceptance,
in action. If I'm not aware of what's going on,
I can't accept it. If I can't accept it, I
can't take action. And so it's recovery for me. It's
(24:18):
a daily routine, right, and so in the morning, I
wake up, I do a morning meditation, I read the Bible,
I read a daily devotion, I do a gratitude list
of three things I'm grateful for, but not only what,
but why, because that's where really the meat lies. And
then I do some form of exercise, whether it's going
to the gym, whether it's take my dog for a run.
But I get outside, I get some son, I get that.
That's kind of how I always start my morning. And
(24:39):
then sometimes I would incorporate that with I have Bible
City that I do, or I'll go to meetings, and
then I go about my day. And then at the
end of the day, which I think is one of
the most important things that I've done, is I do
an inventory, kind of like what we're talking about with
making amends. I do that with myself. I do a
check in. I'm like, hey, where did things go right,
and where did things go wrong? And what do I
(25:01):
need to do to clean up If there's anything that
I did that I need to take ownership for clean
that up, but also acknowledge the successes that I did
and the achievements that I made for the day, because
oftentimes I think we overlook that and giving myself kudos,
But what that does is allot to me an opportunity
of a fresh morning that next morning, and so I
think that's what is key is especially with addiction, there's
(25:22):
a big difference between being abstinence of drugs and alcohol
versus living a life and recovery. And it's one thing
just just to white knuckle it and be a part
of that process. But there's a difference when you're working
in programming. It doesn't mean I'm perfect. No, I still
have my moments. I still outlash and stuff like that.
But I have a support system. I still go to therapy.
I've done this for years now on a weekly basis.
I still see a therapist. I'm plugged into a church.
(25:45):
I have three or four guys that hold me accountable.
I have my Bible study that I can be totally
open and connect with. And like coming in here, like
even saw me deep. You're like taking deep breaths. It's
just because this week's been overwhelming and so like I come.
I know, like breathing really helps. It's just stuff that
I've done over the course of time. It's funny that
people will pick up on it, but it's just how
I operate now, you know, And and it's communicating about that,
(26:08):
you know, Like when it's just coming in. It's I
try not to like when people ask like how's it going,
It's like I try to really say, like what's going on,
as opposed like I'm good, I'm great, family is amazing,
it's like been overwhelming, you know, like and life's very
full right now and I'm very grateful. But that's I
think it's the communication factor is is huge and detrimental.
The thing that kept me sick for so long was dishonesty.
(26:31):
That was with myself, not only with people around me,
but I was the person I was hurting most was
me and again as I still fall short. But you know,
I think today is is I take ownership in that,
and I know I love the life I have today
and so like I want that, I want to continue that.
I didn't love the life I had for many years
(26:53):
and people on the outside people be like, god, I
want that life potentially, not when I was getting arrested
in all these other things of that.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, it was a hard when that was happy.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
I'm not gonna lie the by products prior to that
or even as you know, in just growing up, like
when I was young, twelve thirteen, fourteen years old, I
just remember people like you have a great life, like
you don't know. It goes on the en closed stories.
And I think that's the other piece too, is is
everybody struggling with something. And let's say, one of the
biggest things to my recovery is service is giving back.
I try to do a lot of giving back.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
So Ashley, does Ashley also seek support because I know
it takes a village to help an addict in recovery.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Yes, so Ashley, actually she does, and she was instrumental
in me getting the help that I needed. And again
that goes back to one of the questions you were
talking about before, is like what was you know, what
took place in that intervention and is people setting boundaries
and and her being able to take care of herself
because she got so sick in her own ways with
(27:50):
codependency and enabling that she had lost sight of who
she was. I mean she literally will tell you she like,
I didn't know what color I liked. I mean, I
didn't know what food I like. I mean that's how
her her Her addiction was my addiction. She was like
addicted to the addict. And so yes, she again weekly therapy,
does groups. She's actually now running and is the face
of the Family Recovery Foundation, which is for people that
(28:12):
are directly impacted by the disease of addiction. So it's
a clinically led support group, so it's clinicians that are
there to bring oversight and add value to people that
were in her shoes. And so she runs out on
a weekly basis, and she's really she's actually really like
trying to make a push in that area. I'd say
that's one area that's deficient in the recovery community, is
(28:34):
for those that are directly impacted. And I'm supporting her
in that from a legacy piece. For me is because
when I was struggling, I had all the resources at
all these people, all these places to go and you know,
and keep in mind, I'm Ashley as a newborn. There's
you know, all the things prior to leading up to that.
I mean, she was putting her head on my heart
every single night to see if I was still breathing.
(28:55):
My heart was beating, like all these things that I
don't witness, plus the verbal abuse and just the thing
that go along with addiction. And it's like I come
out and it's like, yeah, you're supposed to be good
ready for me to come home, and it's like that's
just not the case. They had to endure so much
and there's so many people that are affected by all
of that that there's not enough being done because it's
one thing again, there's great like on site which is
(29:17):
here in Tennessee, a great program and stuff like that,
but one is a lot of people can't afford that,
Or two is what are you doing for continuation after that? Right?
And I think alan On and Code of Meetings are
all really good, but how can you kind of boost
that on a steroid level with like I think adding
a therapist, right and getting some clinical oversight, And so
I'm hoping that that will kind of take off. And
that's what her envision is is because she's like, there's
(29:40):
so many people that just are left to their own
devices with this, and it's just not fair.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
So my dad was addicted my whole life. And I'll
try to detach so I don't get emotional, but my
mom was like wildly codependent and like an enabler, and
he passed away a year ago July.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Trying trying, we do.
Speaker 6 (30:12):
But I've watched her try to untangle for like the
last like year and a half and it's a mess,
like she never got the apology, Like I'm.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Really really proud of you.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
I'm proud of you for your kids and for Ashley
that you can do the things you're doing because a
lot of people like I'm an adult child of an alcoholic,
I never got the apology. I traumatic childhood inconsistency I
never got, I never got the mends, I never got
the ownership or any of that. And for what you're
(30:46):
doing for your family and for the family cycle, and
then for y'all to be pouring into community, like I mean,
I was sitting to Alan on meetings and I'm like, yeah,
this is like fine.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
But like there's no meat to this.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
There's no like there's nobody there, like really, it's amazing,
don't get me wrong, and I'm not. It is a
resource that's awesome, but it's just not rich enough. It's
once a week. It feels like.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
You leave feeling less alone, which is I.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Think when when I used to go to ask An,
there's the cross having no cross talk. I need someone
to talk to like you're just like you just say it,
but then there's no support and then I beave and
I'm like, well, I feel worse than when I walked in,
and my mom is like barely untangling, Like we're talking
forty years of just chaos, and I'm watching her start
to like pull it apart. But it is like solow
(31:35):
and and there is a piece where the person that
did this isn't available to be talked to or any
of that. So, like, you just need to know how
huge and wonderful everything you're doing for your family, for yourself, everything,
Like I know you know it probably, but like you
don't see the ownership is everything.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
For your people.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Sorry to hear that, Thank you for sharing that your life.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
I'm like listening to you, and I'm like, God, what
a different life it would have been. You know, someone
like you was like my dad, which is awkward because
you're younger than me, but you know, I know.
Speaker 5 (32:10):
But but again, as I think it's so important that
we talk about this, Yeah, I think that's a lot
of it is, and there's but there's so many This
isn't going anywhere, right, I mean, mental health and addiction
has just been on a steady incline over the last
twenty years, and I mean, what is it going to
take for for a change, and a shift to happen.
And I think it's it starts with communication. It starts
(32:30):
about having the conversation and being open like this because
there's millions, not two thousands and not one hundreds, it's
millions of people that are in your shoes, in my
shoes and that are going through this today.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
And so there's a million Ashleys, like.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
Millions more, there's more because wherever's going like now.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
I'm supposed to love you like you were an a
pool of day ago.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
You know, it's hard, but I think he's like this
to bring that cause like alan On is a tremendous resource.
But again it's it's it's it's a piece, it's a piece,
but there's it's there's what Ashley and what we're trying
to bring together for that is really another tool in
the toolkit, right is if allan On works you phenomenal,
we love it. That's what helped ask you tremendously. But
she was looking at how can I even add to that?
(33:12):
And so again from cross talk and being able to
have that insight, but even having a clinical oversight and
actually having takeaways that are tangible from a professional.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
So Catherine were going to say then well, I's going
to say to you.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I mean, obviously we have a similar story as well.
But I think for us, with our parents the generation,
they didn't talk about it, they didn't communicate.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
You know.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
So I know that we also my mother's still alive
and we have that issue, but the communication is not
like this.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Well, and my grandfather was an alcoholic, so it was
genetic and it was what she learned to live with.
And you either marry one become one is the statistic
that leads that. So her emotional bandwidth for it was
it's so comfortable to her, which is crazy, but it's
true because it's unhealthy.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
But she saw it. Have you gotten in the.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Mends from your mom?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
She would say yes, she would say yes, for sure,
you know, but no, not really, not really.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
What would you want or need say?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's that's the that's the that's the part that's hard
for me because I don't long for that like you do.
My brothers do. I think I think that they've they've
handled it very differently. I was kind of the one
where I'm like, I just don't even want to like,
I'll take it, I'll take your you know whatever apology
and just like move over here. I just kind of
(34:33):
compartmentalized it, put it over here. But I also don't
know that she has the capacity to apologize in the
right way. Yeah, she doesn't have the tools that you know,
she truly didn't and doesn't you know. And I think
that it's a different generation. Very not that that's an excuse,
but I do. I think people are doing the things
that you're doing and paying attention and are getting honest
(34:55):
and you know, and I don't think she's at that place.
I don't think she's fully ever gotten honest with their So.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Yeah, we don't have a lot of ownership going on.
So no, not really either.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
But again not again, it's not an excuse, but it
just feels so generational. I think we're just more open
to it now, we're talking about it more now, people are.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
More aware of it.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
But not to switch gears. But I do have a
question kind of in regards to that, like, since it
is genetic, have you all had conversations about your own
children and like what that can possibly look like in
the future, because that's tough.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
Yes, and so we are very aware of that. When
we had conversations probably even a couple of years ago,
around this and how we're going to navigate this and
corporate the communication with our kids because you know, they
got a fifty to fifty chance of having it having it,
like I mean pretty severely. This based on my genetic
(35:55):
makeup and the background and the history, and so we
were already We're already starting the conversation with Delilah around
mental health. And again is what I like for every morning,
Like we start at she's five years old, and so
we wake up and we do a gratitude list. We
do through things that she's grateful for and why, and
I do that with her.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
And I was thinking about that when you said that.
I was like, I'm gonna do that with my kids.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
And so I mean, but we made it up, like
we made it a cool process where she lights candles
and it's kind of this experience where she looks forward
to doing to you know, doing it, and when we
don't do it, she's like, Dad, we didn't do our
gratitude lists. And so it's just starting to incorporate these
little behaviors and then just even when she's really upset,
getting on her level, getting you know, literally physically getting
on my knees and just talking to her at her
level and just understanding and kind of walking through these
(36:41):
processes because you know, we had to just we had
the shooting that just happened, and it was too close
figuratively and literally, I mean it was it was twelve
minutes from our house and it was this same age
as our kids. And to have to sit down and
have that conversation with Delilah, you know that that you know,
not only is there you know, trainings and or you
(37:04):
know you're enough you know, for for tornadoes and for
earthquakes and and things like that, but now there's you know,
for we got to use the term like bad, bad
people that can come on to campus and and that
you know that can you know, for an active shooter
type of thing. And it's like how you how do
you break that down? Again, Ashley was instrumental in that
process and and and how we did that. But it's
(37:26):
having that conversation, and I think what we're really trying
to do is create a really safe place for them
to come to to talk and communicate. And you know,
because there's pretty fascinating statistics that are out there. I mean,
if you're if you don't drink or use drugs or
any mood altering substances by the age of twenty one,
even ninety percent chance of never struggling with addiction. And so.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
My husband is that Preacher's kid never drank, really never
did anything. Still has never done a drug in his life.
He's forty eight.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Yeah, insane.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
But I think just kind of looking at some of
those things and just really trying to make and show
and leveraging the knowledge that we have today, right because
I also think that where there's a default from like
the baby boomers and some of the older demographic because
they really didn't even know how to process or share
what was really going on. They weren't there, just weren't
equipped with it. And so I think we're in a
different time now, but it's it's being present, and I
(38:18):
think the best thing we can do is being there
for our kids and to know that they can trust us,
they have a safe place to come to, and that
they have support.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Like literally, I can die happy knowing like that's what
I've done with my kids, Like that is like that
has been my goal since I could understand what the
goal was. Yeah, it just matters. It is I'm not
going to nail it. I'm not trying to be perfect,
but just the breaking of the cycle. And it's not
lost on me that my daughter and I were do
a day apart ended up being two days apart. Like
(38:49):
God is just really the hand and the poetic ability
of all of that is just never lost on me.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
So good.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
The statistics that you were sharing with me too fascinated
me with the binge drinking that's going on in our
age right now, isn't it. Can you lay some of
those stats out well?
Speaker 5 (39:07):
Actually coming here, That's why we did the PSA. We
actually did a public service announcement around this, but moving
to Tennessee that the number one health crisis in the
state of Tennessee has beinge drinking.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
And so when we age our age like the right,
isn't it like thirties, forties, fifties.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
I'm not sure about that piece, But I think the
thing that you're talking about is the leading cause of
death in America for fifty old individuals and younger is
substance abuse. So I mean, it's literally the leading cause
of death. And so when you look at this, that's
what I'm saying, it's not going anywhere. And I mean
prior to I'll give you. You know what the craziest
thing is is prior to COVID, somebody was overdosing at
(39:49):
the rate of of every eleven minutes. You know what
it is today one every ninety seconds.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
So do you think that's because of fetanyl too?
Speaker 5 (40:00):
It's yeah, I mean that that adds to it. But
it's it's again, is like I even asked the question
and start the conversation. Is you know, we talk about
how much fentanyl and how much opiates and how much
you know, how many drugs are coming into the into
the to the States. My question is is why is
there such a high demand?
Speaker 4 (40:17):
Mmm?
Speaker 5 (40:18):
Like, Okay, it's one, yeah, we understand that, but why
are so many people wanting to do it? Like why
are they so disconnected?
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Like it's a business.
Speaker 5 (40:26):
Well no, but like why are some men wanting to
do a state? Right?
Speaker 4 (40:29):
I mean like you don't have you don't have a business.
If you do, client, well that's.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
My place exactly. But being in a very sober state,
I mean not my younger self, but now it's like
I would never want to partake in any of that stuff.
I'd be you know, I mean if I ever had
the thought of a beer sounds good or something like.
Of course that thought comes and goes, and it's how
I process. And that's and and again it's it's it's fleeting.
It comes and goes. But like just looking at what
(40:54):
is out there today, and like you know, with with
opiates and the it's just like I can't I can't
imagine like if the landscape has changed, is what I'm
getting at. I mean, it's you were younger. It wasn't
like we're going to take something and we were going
to die. Right.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Well, here's the here's the thing that so I've never
I've never touched a drug because I've always been afraid
that I'm gonna die. Right, But back then you wouldn't
like it's unless you like overdosed, right, But like now
I'm like to my kids, if you even try the
small you could you will die, like most likely it's
a freaking fentanyl. Like that's where I'm place with something. Yeah,
that's why I'm like that piece. I'm like, just don't
do it.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
Yeah, it's it's crazy, you know, it's just really it's
the world we live in is different today, and it's
just that's why I'm saying, like it's just you look
at like, what are why are there such a high
demand for these types of things that are that are
out there? It's really alarming.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Do I.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
One of the things that you know, like you're saying
right now, with everyone you know wanting to the drugs
and stuff, I just wish there was an easier reach
for people to be able to have therapy because I
think that's an issue to a lot of people are like,
well I can't afford it, and it's like, oh, like
what therapy has done for all of us in this
room has been amazing. It's helped with so much. That's
(42:05):
the piece where I'm like, why, I just wish there's
something we can do And I know you do that
right with what you're working on right now.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah, And well, I mean that's I think the more
that we can get behind that, we can get more
people supporting that effort is important. Like that's the stuff
that I'm doing and working with doctor Amen at the
Change your Brain Foundation is we're trying to have it
be more accessible for people to actually get scans of
their brains. And I think the thing that really that
I love around this and it's even changing the narrative
(42:33):
of how we look at mental health, right, and we've
been treating mental health the same way we have for
the last one hundred and fifty years. We've been clustering
a bunch of symptoms and throwing medication at it, when
in reality, we know the organ that's directly impacted, So
why are we not focusing on it? And that's being
the brain. And through spect imaging where you can actually
see the deficiencies through where people have less blood flow
(42:56):
through their brain, you can actually see what may be
causing or triggering different things. And so I think the
more that we provide access and we can actually get
to the core root cause of this, it's going to
help us be able to treat further and further and
have better treatment plans for these types of things. But
I think you know, from the stuff that we're doing
at doctor Aman allowing people to actually get brain scans
of what's going on within their brain to see what's
(43:17):
going on, and then being able to set them up
with appropriate therapists and psychiatrist to be able to come
up with an effective treatment plan, I mean, we need
to make that more readily available for people. It's it's
it's it's it's it's time.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
It's literally the only way that I've been able to
do anything.
Speaker 5 (43:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, Three things you're grateful for to end this on
a happier note.
Speaker 5 (43:37):
Oh my gosh, I'm grateful for my sobriety. I'm grateful
for our relationship with God, and I'm grateful that I'm
able to be present today.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah. Well, Jason, we're so happy that you came on
the show. Thank you for again doing what you do.
And I'm proud to be your friend and I'm happy to,
you know, to watch you do everything you're doing and
join forces with you. So thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
Thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Thank you
Wind down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
If we could only record the pre chat and the
post chat, that would just be that's the money maker
because you just go you can say it. Actually it's
kind of funny.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Well not that part, but okay, I go, well, it's
with Jana Kramer and friend Kat says you're the boss
to Jana and I said yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I go yep, which is true.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
But you just don't usually don't ever do like skirt
around it.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Well, no, yeah, today we are and friends yep.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Glad to be here. Yeah, but then he said, but
what's his face? Still has his?
Speaker 4 (00:39):
I won't say it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We get so many messages all the time. Why is like,
I don't know why either. Actually going on there, quick
check up before our amazing guest joins the show. You
can say hi though, Jason, come in.
Speaker 5 (00:53):
How it is great to be here, Oh Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
We're so happy to have the house.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Very true.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I like that we are house.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
We are so excited to have Jason Waller on the
show with us. And we're going to get into it.
But how is everyone's easter.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Good?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, it was tiring, it was great.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Speaking of Tyran.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Did you make everybody happy in your family. We'll see
we showed up.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Okay, revisiting therapy and cat will know the real truth
of Easter.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Did you divorce your husband?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I made it through three days of Disney at thirty
weeks pregnant, forty one years old.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I just want high five nights.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
That's very impressive, that's incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, fun you guys.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
My ankles were so swollen at the end of the day.
I felt like I almost got one of those motorized carts.
But I felt like there's somebody that needed it more
than me. It was really something, but we did it.
The happiest place on earth is my bathtub. But my
kids had the best play.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You can have that you can do a bath with
the baby.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I mean I have been, Okay, I guess third time.
Everyone's just like when you get to the third y're just.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I thought you couldn't have a bath with a baby, so.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I always I never took bats with the other I
think it's past a certain point.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Maybe, Okay, I don't.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
We're going to find out because everyone will write to you.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
No no, no, no, no no. I just know they will.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
On Instagram, they'll write to me, all the obi's will
come out, the secret ob listeners will come out.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
How was your Easter? Well, he has risen. Indeed, he
has risen. Indeed, it was great. We went over to
Sarah Bryce's house. We had church. It was lovely. I
wasn't supposed to have the kids, but it was awesome.
Mix let me have them. And it was like the
best weekend ever. And uh it got out there They're like, oh,
(02:44):
seemingly Alan has met the kids because Jolie. We took
Jolie to a soccer game, but like all supposed to
photo of Alan and then and then like the photo
and then so, yes, he's met the kids.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And Alan's not going to be where soccer is anyway,
I know, right.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
But it went great and the kids love him and
it's been awesome. Good yeah, yeah, good, Okay, David.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I know now.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
Easter it was fantastic. We actually went to church on Saturday,
so we had the whole Sunday off and we were
outside for the first time like all day, eight hours.
We had two water balloon flights. We went through I
think like four hundred and fifty water balloons and just
this was like just acted like a kid and we
just had the best time a couple of e strike
hunts and spent time with the kids and the wife
(03:34):
and just relaxed.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You've been married for how many years now?
Speaker 5 (03:37):
Oh my gosh, coming up on ten. Our anniversary's ten,
twelve thirteen.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, so coming to Ashley.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Ashley, we have two babies.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Two babies. I got Delilah who is five, and Wyatt
who is geez almost two two in June.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
So that's really been something. Yeah, two year old boys
or something.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Yes, it is. He's in that phase right now where
it's he wants to do everything and if you don't
let him, he he just loses. So it's it's it's interesting.
It's a process and I'm learning slowly, but surely that's
for sure.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Right around two is when I felt like legend and
I needed our own couples counselor So I'm going to
talk to your wife and you just moved here from California.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Yes, we just got here almost a year ago to date,
moved from Laguna Beach and absolutely living it out here.
You know, we came out here to slow our lives
down and just you know, to get out of the
rift draft of southern California, and we had.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
The Laguna Beach is just horrible.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
It's beautiful, but it's really it's different, well it's different
than it is. I mean, it's a great place, the
best childhood I ever had, but honestly, it's just it's
just different and it's not the way that I had
grown up. I mean, just when we moved here, Just
to put it into perspective, this hasn't happened in twenty
plus years since I lived there. Within the first twenty
four hours of us moving into our house, three little
girls came and knocked on our door and asked my
(04:53):
daughter to come out and play. And like, that's kind
of one of those things where I looked at my
wife and I was like, we made the right decision
and just kind of have that more wholesome vibe. And again,
as I go back, I got twenty two family members
that still live in from Laguna to Coasta Mesa, so
I'm there often. But I just if we were going
to do it, we thought the time was now. The
kids were young. We weren't going to uproot them. If
we didn't like it, you know, we could move back.
(05:15):
But also some little bit of backstory or history to
this is my grandfather actually grew up off of Moors
Lane in Brentwood.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
I grew up on Moors Lane.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Let's go, oh my cash. Yeah, and then my whole
my mom was born in Memphis, and then I got
three I think three generations or four generations from Tennessee
on my mom's side.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
So so it feels rooted.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Is anyone still here though right now or no?
Speaker 5 (05:36):
Yeah? So I have great aunts and uncles who live
up by Tim's Ford. I have some family in Clarksville
kind of like scattered around, but yeah, just a few relatives.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It is very cozy here. People love on each other.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
It is The people are incredible. I mean, I didn't know.
I'll never forget the drive when I was coming out here.
So Ashley and the kids and mother in law, they
all flew out here, and I remember driving with me
and my dog. It was a little trailer behind like
with our personal stuff, and I was like going through
New Mexico, I'm like what am I doing? Like it
was just like that real like we're just kind of
(06:11):
broke down and like, dude, I'm literally leaving it and
it disdn't hit me until then. But honestly, I was
just asked the other day, you know what I do.
I want to move back, and I really don't. It's
almost a grieving process because that's all I've known for
thirty five years was Orange County.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Is there a piece of you because of everything that
you went through? Is does that piece hold on to
not wanting to go back because of like who you
were there?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
No.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
I think I've done so much work on myself that
I've really processed and gone through that where I'm really
comfortable with where I'm at, like physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
And I think through all that work, it's a lot
to me the opportunity to make a decision to actually
be at a place to be like, hey, let's get
up and move because I never thought that would be
a part of the process. But that's just a testimony
(07:01):
of when you put in the hard work, what can
really come to fruition. Because if I didn't do the
work I did on myself, I wouldn't never have left there.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, it's interesting too, because one of our friends had
said this, some of the most healing work that she's
ever done was going back to the places that broke
her the most, and also realizing like who you are today,
Like so when you go back, you have to be
so proud of who you are versus how you were then.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, I did. Ah. I was on a interview yesterday
and to look at, you know, a kid that was
struggling severely with addiction, was very lost and just in
a in a really deep dark place. I mean, my
addiction drove me not to contemplation, but attempting suicide. And
(07:45):
just you know, I grew up you have to understand,
I think, putting that into context, I grew up this happy,
outgoing kid who loved surfing, skateboarding, snowboarding, was always outdoors
and a depth of my addiction, it was me by myself,
you know, in a room, and so it was a
very lonely, miserable place. And so to be able to
kind of pause and process through all the treatment centers
(08:06):
I went through, through all the trials and tribulations with
the law and just my own internal battles with the
people I hurt. All this stuff, there was a lot there.
I always joke like, I'm going to be making amends
for the rest of my life, just because of all
the destruction I did, but to actually really be honest
with myself, like I'm so proud of where I am
at today, like to be able to look in the
mirror and to be happy with what I see. I'm
(08:28):
comfortable in my own skin. And for years and years,
I never was in that spot. And you know, after
doing so much work, I was able to actually identify
that I struggled with addiction and alcoholism way before I
ever picked up the drink or the drug, and that
you know, twelve or thirteen years old, I had struggled
severely with OCD to the point where I'd washed my
hands till they would bleed, and I'd have to wear
(08:50):
deopren gloves at night, and I'd have to put you know,
put them in with niaspoorne in them to let my
hands heal. But on the outside, so that was what
was going on behind closed doors. But on the outside,
I was the popular kid. I was always good at
sports and kind of had to live this double life,
which ultimately led me to you know, even with seeing
psychiatrists and therapist and having really good support, I got
(09:10):
a much more alleviation from substances, and it was That's
what I was using as my solution, was alcohol, right
to take away that pain and what I had felt,
even though I was seeing doctors. And but again at
twelve thirteen, how are you able to, you know, not
knowing what we know today, how you able to try
to process that type of stuff at that age? And
so I never was able to get really fully open
(09:31):
and honest. And so it's been a journey.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You know, it's for those people that don't know the journey.
How long were you an active addiction?
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Oh God, I'd say I really started struggling about sixteen
or seventeen years old, and then it that when the
show started, I was shortly thereafter. So I think I
started filming probably when I was like seventeen, Laguna Beach,
and then it went from sixteen to I mean bad
until twenty three. Was able to get sober July twenty third,
(10:01):
twenty ten, had five years of sobriety, and then went
out on pharmaceutical synthetic grade meth aka adderall and that
took me down really, really bad, to the point of
where on and off it wasn't like a three year
benders like I'd have a few months sober. I just
wasn't willing to get open and honest. But that landed
(10:21):
me at the first floor in Hook Hospital Detox. You want,
Ashley was giving birth to Delilah on the third or
fourth floor, and.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So I saw that in our video that we did
and that was like, as when you look back now,
I mean, now you can show your daughter, Okay, this
is you know your daddy is healthier, But is there
a piece of view that struggles with that knowing that
you weren't there for your wife in that moment.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Yeah, it was a very.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Like how do you make amends with that with yourself?
Speaker 5 (10:53):
I guess or I mean forgiveness is one of the
most powerful tools, right and I can't hold onto those
types of things. I have to. I believe your greatest
setbacks so the greatest opportunity for your comeback. And you
know it's looking it's so crazy to think that your
biggest deficits are your greatest assets, and like that is
a big motivating factor. Like even though I was physically there,
(11:16):
literally went from the first floor up the elevator to
watch my daughter be born. But you and that's how cunning,
baffling and powerful addiction is. You'd think that would be
enough to stop. But I didn't actively arrest the disease
or get stabilized right. I was in detox for two days.
I went home with the family and back at it
again four or five days later. And it was about
a six month on and off process where I actually
(11:37):
was finally intervened on and I had to go back
into treatment. I mean, I did the full thing that
I needed to do.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Is that when it was over, did you still go
back again?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
That was when it was really over. That was kind
of the real surrender. And then kind of the to
give you the full scope of everything is right after that,
like a little bit long, like probably I don't know.
Nine months down the road, the Hills came back and
there's an opportunity to come back on television and again,
as I thought, this would be a really good opportunity
to share our story. And I think by expressing vulnerability
(12:07):
at creates humility and it allows an opportunity for people
to connect. And actually had her own story and I
had my story, and I thought this would be really powerful.
But it was a huge decision because we're like, we
love our life where it's at. We want to really
go and do this, but I believe that it was
kind of God's opportunity from being who I used to
be to show how much I had changed. Because even
that relapse and stuff happened, I don't discredit all the
(12:27):
work that I've done. I was a different person still,
and I think that was just a part of that journey.
And so I ended up experiencing just a lot of
a lot of my own stuff came up again, insecurities,
I was overweight, you know, and just going back on television,
it was just, you know, just image, right, self image
(12:49):
was just kind of something I was struggling with. And
so we were already shooting and then that stuff started
to percolate. I did not reach out to not talk
to anybody, and I'd taken a pill I drank, and
then I called doctor Drew and got open and honest.
And so that was a huge difference, Right. I'm not
justifying my me doing that, but I have the tools
(13:09):
and the resources. I should have reached out to somebody
way before I ever picked up. And because a relapse
manifest way before you're actually picking it up, it's like
the dominoes falling. And so at that point I got
open and honest, and I started talking about it right
away because I did not want it to go down
that road, and so it was I call it a lapse,
if you will. If that didn't happen, i'd have over
five years, But I have three years of sobriety now,
(13:31):
and that was the last time that that had ever happened.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
When they say in what the meetings, like, you realize
your life became has become unmanageable. You basically got intervened.
So a lot of times when they say, like, interventions
don't work because you're not ready yet, right, So was
there a moment where you're like, what made your life
go okay, it's unmanageable? Like obviously because it's like what
(14:09):
the people were saying to you in the intervention. Or
was it just like because I've been told that his
interventions don't work that well because they're not ready yet.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
It's every different strokes different folks, right, And I think
if you have the right team and the right support,
I think you can really help navigate that into getting
people and guiding them because a lot of people that
are in those states are literally at a place so
they've lost the right to make their own decisions, so
they don't even know what's right or not. So I'll
share with you what really when I call my entering
into recovery was back in twenty ten, because you have
(14:41):
to remember, had everything society says amazing, whether it's notoriety, fame, access,
all these different things, and you know, I hated life.
I mean I tried taking my own life. And I'll
never forget the moment, which I call my moment of clarity,
when I was sitting in a therapist's office just like
this with my mom and dad. My mom and dad
looked across from me. This is We've done this a
(15:04):
hundred of times. There was nothing that was unique about this,
but there was something happened here. My dad just looked
at me, and I've never seen him breakdown besides when
his mom had passed away, and he just looks across
and he goes, Jason, we don't know what to do anymore.
You know, our marriage is suffering. The family is just
a complete that we were totally lost, and Mom and
I weigh Mom and I lay in bed like two
(15:26):
planks of wood, waiting for the phone call that you're dead.
And whatever that was, there was something that came very
clear to me, and that became my motivating factor. Is like,
I didn't care enough about myself to want to do
it before I taking my life, and so it's kind
of like what else is there to look for? But
thank God for the family dynamic that I had had
and the parents that I had had growing up in
(15:47):
just that sense of respect, and they became my motivating factor.
And so that was the moment where I really transitioned.
And then, you know, months down the road, after I'd
committed myself, I was open, I was willing, I was
willing to take direction. I got honest. You know, after
my life started to change. About six months down the road,
I really saw that this was something I wanted to
do for myself. And that's where my real journey started.
(16:09):
And so every situation is different, Every situation is unique.
There is not a one size fits all model and
it's a very individualized process. And so like again, is
how I got there maybe different than how you would
have gotten there, right, And so it's taking that into
account and looking at people's background, their history, their you know,
the environment and the things that had happened to them
as their pre genetic disposition there's so many different things
(16:31):
that can go into effect with it.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And well you kind of said too like a lot
of times people are like great childhood, the wounds and
the trauma, but sounds like you had a great childhood too,
So it's like, well, then, why why did this happen?
Or how did I do this? Or like trying to
find that like why I must have been frustrating too.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Well, I'm Cherokee, German and Irish. I should have had
a stamp on the wound when saying this kid cannot
use anything, but no, they're the pre genetic disposition of
my family is half my family struggles with addiction in
our mental health. So it's like again, as I had,
that's what's I didn't have any of that crazy childhood
trauma or you know, the environmental stuff like I had
(17:08):
a very if anything, I had a very amazing childhood.
And so it's where it wasn't really didn't line up,
but struggling with the mental health and stuff that that's
now where it makes a clear picture is that was
kind of outside the context and through doctor Amen, who
I am starting to work with now, I had found
out that I had had potentially had pandas, which is
(17:29):
basically a PDA. I forget the acronym of what it is,
which I should know that, but it's basically caused by
strep throat, which is a piece that actually will attack
a part of your brain that can trigger OCD. And
had I known that a long time ago, who knows
what have kind of would have happened. But it's it's
crazy to kind of see how I went down and
(17:50):
navigated that wrote as a young adolescent.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
So when you're young, and I'm glad you mentioned your parents,
because I was. That was one of my questions, like
where were they in all of this and how active
were they and when, like when was the first time
that they noticed anything like the hand washing all the things.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
My parents are very involved. So I mean my mom likes,
right when she saw me, she saw my hands and
she's like, what the what's because I'd go like this
and they'd just crack and they'd just bleed and stuff,
and so she's a she's psychiatrist. I mean, they were
part of that whole process. And I mean I started
seeing somebody at twelve thirteen years old, whenever it was
that timeframe when I was in there and they did
(18:26):
everything that they possibly couldn't what they were equipped with,
and they were along that ride in that process, and
you know, and I was even a part of it.
And that's how close we were. At sixteen, sixteen and
a half years old, when I went to Provo, Utah
to wilderness camp into a boarding school. I was wasn't
like I was kidnapped in the middle of the night.
I mean I made that decision with them, like hey,
I'm kind of going down the wrong road, like let's
(18:47):
course correct this. But after being out there for a
little bit of time, I was able to manipulate my
way back and being like, yeah, this ain't the right fit,
let's get back. And so and that's where they struggled,
is they you know, wherever there's an alcoholic or an addict,
there's a codependent and sometimes are just as sick, if
not sicker. And my parents were really harming me in
areas when they thought they were doing good, like not
to their own acre. They you know, they didn't have
(19:08):
the knowledge, and so when they were they were throwing
pillows when I really should have fallen in certain areas,
and that progressively got worse. But also then fast forwarding through,
you know, going on television. It's like at eighteen years old,
when you're the most impressionable and the most impulsive, like
and you're an adult, there's only so much control they have, right,
(19:29):
and so we had instant success. And so like usually
what your parents have some type of financial restraint on
you to a degree if you're going to college or
different things, they can kind of, you know, manage that process.
And it was like either join me or ziya. Yeah,
and so that's kind of how you know, they just
I respected them, but I was also I was super
super super sick, and all I cared about was the
(19:53):
next drink and the next drug.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
When you talked about amends in the show, is there
anyone did you have to have amends with a lot
of people from the show?
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Yeah, I made amends. I wish I could talk to
you about something that we all just did, but I
can't right now. There's something there's something cool coming out,
but I can't say anything about it. But I've made
amends to say every girlfriend on the show's there was
(20:24):
a few.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Few, were there any that didn't accept the amends?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
I think the thing that people don't realize is like
when I was the drunkenrol when I was drinking and stuff.
That's that's what That's what it was. But also I
think when I was sober. When I was sober, people
got to see who I really was so and I
don't think the media or the viewers of the show's
ever got to see that other side. And so I
think even like when I've reconnected with like Kristen and
(20:53):
Steven and all the people that I have over these
last few years are just like, God, this is the
guy that we knew, you know what I mean, it
was just you were lost and and so I think
that the short answers know that they were just they're
really happy and proud to see where I'm at today.
And I think, honestly they're more surprised and shocked how
much I've changed because it was pretty bad.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Well it's also twenty years ago, right, almost twenty Like,
I mean.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
You're started, Yeah, I'm thirty six now.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I mean it's they've all changed too, Yeah, yes, yes,
a lot of grace, I would assume, Yes, everyone's growing journey.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I think that with the amens too. I think it's
a beautiful thing because it's not like you're like I've
had to make amends with certain people, and I've even
said to them, I'm not asking for you to say
it's okay, or I forgive you or any of those things.
I'm just telling you, like you know that I'm sorry
I handle this wrong, that was wrong with me. No
excuses are made. And you know, the person that I
did do this too a couple of months ago, they're like,
(21:50):
it's okay.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
I'm like, no, no, it's not okay, you know, but no,
it's take it's keeping your side of the street clean, right,
and it's taking ownership and accountability. And I love I
mean the way that I approach amends is most identical
to that is I take full ownership and accountability for
what I did. I'm not justifying my actions, but whatever
I can do to make it right and better, please
let me know, you know. And it's it's sometimes and
(22:10):
I've had trust me over the course of time. There's people.
Not everybody's responded as gracefully. Some people just are like thanks,
but no thanks, you know. But I'd say more so
than not, people have been very receptive to it. But
for me and my process and my recovery program, it's
just keeping my side of this streakly and I have
no control or I can't have an expectation on the
outcome of it. That's not why I'm doing it. It's
(22:32):
really to do the work and to make things right.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
So right now, you're very which I love. That's how
because we met at Jason and I met at an
airport in LA and we ended up talking the entire flight,
like the only time I ever took a middle seat, right,
Cat ye yeah, Kin's like, oh yeah, I get the window.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
I'm like, oh, we're here reading a book while they
talk it all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
But it was so nice just to connect with someone
who was so open and vulnerable, and I loved hearing
your story and getting to know you. And since that flight,
I've been able to be a part of some of
the stuff that you're doing with mental health, and I
just I love what you're doing, and I appreciate what
you're doing because you're helping a lot of people and
you're going to help even more with the doctor, amen
(23:14):
and everything else that you're doing. But you know, because
you are still in recovery right every day is a
new day, and it's something that you have to continue
to work on. Is there a piece where sometimes you
feel like what sometimes makes you feel like, oh my god,
I feel like I'm slipping a little bit, and like,
how do you kind of stay back on track?
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Great question. I love that I've developed and built a
program by looking at it from structure and consistency creates safety.
And I think if you have kids that you can
you can kind of look at that as the same
thing when a kid's on routine, he wakes up as
his morning breakfast, he has his nappy, he's usually typically
pretty good, and the same thing with adults. And so
(23:55):
I've incorporated that within my life. And so to answer
your first question, is having that connection with myself when
I'm getting overwhelmed or when I'm stressed, being able to
identify and what that looks like. I always believe it's
I live like a triple A modality. It's awareness, acceptance,
in action. If I'm not aware of what's going on,
I can't accept it. If I can't accept it, I
can't take action. And so it's recovery for me. It's
(24:18):
a daily routine, right, and so in the morning, I
wake up, I do a morning meditation, I read the Bible,
I read a daily devotion, I do a gratitude list
of three things I'm grateful for, but not only what,
but why, because that's where really the meat lies. And
then I do some form of exercise, whether it's going
to the gym, whether it's take my dog for a run.
But I get outside, I get some son, I get that.
That's kind of how I always start my morning. And
(24:39):
then sometimes I would incorporate that with I have Bible
City that I do, or I'll go to meetings, and
then I go about my day. And then at the
end of the day, which I think is one of
the most important things that I've done, is I do
an inventory, kind of like what we're talking about with
making amends. I do that with myself. I do a
check in. I'm like, hey, where did things go right,
and where did things go wrong? And what do I
(25:01):
need to do to clean up If there's anything that
I did that I need to take ownership for clean
that up, but also acknowledge the successes that I did
and the achievements that I made for the day, because
oftentimes I think we overlook that and giving myself kudos,
But what that does is allot to me an opportunity
of a fresh morning that next morning, and so I
think that's what is key is especially with addiction, there's
(25:22):
a big difference between being abstinence of drugs and alcohol
versus living a life and recovery. And it's one thing
just just to white knuckle it and be a part
of that process. But there's a difference when you're working
in programming. It doesn't mean I'm perfect. No, I still
have my moments. I still outlash and stuff like that.
But I have a support system. I still go to therapy.
I've done this for years now on a weekly basis.
I still see a therapist. I'm plugged into a church.
(25:45):
I have three or four guys that hold me accountable.
I have my Bible study that I can be totally
open and connect with. And like coming in here, like
even saw me deep. You're like taking deep breaths. It's
just because this week's been overwhelming and so like I come.
I know, like breathing really helps. It's just stuff that
I've done over the course of time. It's funny that
people will pick up on it, but it's just how
I operate now, you know, And and it's communicating about that,
(26:08):
you know, Like when it's just coming in. It's I
try not to like when people ask like how's it going,
It's like I try to really say, like what's going on,
as opposed like I'm good, I'm great, family is amazing,
it's like been overwhelming, you know, like and life's very
full right now and I'm very grateful. But that's I
think it's the communication factor is is huge and detrimental.
The thing that kept me sick for so long was dishonesty.
(26:31):
That was with myself, not only with people around me,
but I was the person I was hurting most was
me and again as I still fall short. But you know,
I think today is is I take ownership in that,
and I know I love the life I have today
and so like I want that, I want to continue that.
I didn't love the life I had for many years
(26:53):
and people on the outside people be like, god, I
want that life potentially, not when I was getting arrested
in all these other things of that.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, it was a hard when that was happy.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
I'm not gonna lie the by products prior to that
or even as you know, in just growing up, like
when I was young, twelve thirteen, fourteen years old, I
just remember people like you have a great life, like
you don't know. It goes on the en closed stories.
And I think that's the other piece too, is is
everybody struggling with something. And let's say, one of the
biggest things to my recovery is service is giving back.
I try to do a lot of giving back.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
So Ashley, does Ashley also seek support because I know
it takes a village to help an addict in recovery.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Yes, so Ashley, actually she does, and she was instrumental
in me getting the help that I needed. And again
that goes back to one of the questions you were
talking about before, is like what was you know, what
took place in that intervention and is people setting boundaries
and and her being able to take care of herself
because she got so sick in her own ways with
(27:50):
codependency and enabling that she had lost sight of who
she was. I mean she literally will tell you she like,
I didn't know what color I liked. I mean, I
didn't know what food I like. I mean that's how
her her Her addiction was my addiction. She was like
addicted to the addict. And so yes, she again weekly therapy,
does groups. She's actually now running and is the face
of the Family Recovery Foundation, which is for people that
(28:12):
are directly impacted by the disease of addiction. So it's
a clinically led support group, so it's clinicians that are
there to bring oversight and add value to people that
were in her shoes. And so she runs out on
a weekly basis, and she's really she's actually really like
trying to make a push in that area. I'd say
that's one area that's deficient in the recovery community, is
(28:34):
for those that are directly impacted. And I'm supporting her
in that from a legacy piece. For me is because
when I was struggling, I had all the resources at
all these people, all these places to go and you know,
and keep in mind, I'm Ashley as a newborn. There's
you know, all the things prior to leading up to that.
I mean, she was putting her head on my heart
every single night to see if I was still breathing.
(28:55):
My heart was beating, like all these things that I
don't witness, plus the verbal abuse and just the thing
that go along with addiction. And it's like I come
out and it's like, yeah, you're supposed to be good
ready for me to come home, and it's like that's
just not the case. They had to endure so much
and there's so many people that are affected by all
of that that there's not enough being done because it's
one thing again, there's great like on site which is
(29:17):
here in Tennessee, a great program and stuff like that,
but one is a lot of people can't afford that,
Or two is what are you doing for continuation after that? Right?
And I think alan On and Code of Meetings are
all really good, but how can you kind of boost
that on a steroid level with like I think adding
a therapist, right and getting some clinical oversight, And so
I'm hoping that that will kind of take off. And
that's what her envision is is because she's like, there's
(29:40):
so many people that just are left to their own
devices with this, and it's just not fair.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
So my dad was addicted my whole life. And I'll
try to detach so I don't get emotional, but my
mom was like wildly codependent and like an enabler, and
he passed away a year ago July.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Trying trying, we do.
Speaker 6 (30:12):
But I've watched her try to untangle for like the
last like year and a half and it's a mess,
like she never got the apology, Like I'm.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Really really proud of you.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
I'm proud of you for your kids and for Ashley
that you can do the things you're doing because a
lot of people like I'm an adult child of an alcoholic,
I never got the apology. I traumatic childhood inconsistency I
never got, I never got the mends, I never got
the ownership or any of that. And for what you're
(30:46):
doing for your family and for the family cycle, and
then for y'all to be pouring into community, like I mean,
I was sitting to Alan on meetings and I'm like, yeah,
this is like fine.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
But like there's no meat to this.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
There's no like there's nobody there, like really, it's amazing,
don't get me wrong, and I'm not. It is a
resource that's awesome, but it's just not rich enough. It's
once a week. It feels like.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
You leave feeling less alone, which is I.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Think when when I used to go to ask An,
there's the cross having no cross talk. I need someone
to talk to like you're just like you just say it,
but then there's no support and then I beave and
I'm like, well, I feel worse than when I walked in,
and my mom is like barely untangling, Like we're talking
forty years of just chaos, and I'm watching her start
to like pull it apart. But it is like solow
(31:35):
and and there is a piece where the person that
did this isn't available to be talked to or any
of that. So, like, you just need to know how
huge and wonderful everything you're doing for your family, for yourself, everything,
Like I know you know it probably, but like you
don't see the ownership is everything.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
For your people.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Sorry to hear that, Thank you for sharing that your life.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
I'm like listening to you, and I'm like, God, what
a different life it would have been. You know, someone
like you was like my dad, which is awkward because
you're younger than me, but you know, I know.
Speaker 5 (32:10):
But but again, as I think it's so important that
we talk about this, Yeah, I think that's a lot
of it is, and there's but there's so many This
isn't going anywhere, right, I mean, mental health and addiction
has just been on a steady incline over the last
twenty years, and I mean, what is it going to
take for for a change, and a shift to happen.
And I think it's it starts with communication. It starts
(32:30):
about having the conversation and being open like this because
there's millions, not two thousands and not one hundreds, it's
millions of people that are in your shoes, in my
shoes and that are going through this today.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
And so there's a million Ashleys, like.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
Millions more, there's more because wherever's going like now.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
I'm supposed to love you like you were an a
pool of day ago.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
You know, it's hard, but I think he's like this
to bring that cause like alan On is a tremendous resource.
But again it's it's it's it's a piece, it's a piece,
but there's it's there's what Ashley and what we're trying
to bring together for that is really another tool in
the toolkit, right is if allan On works you phenomenal,
we love it. That's what helped ask you tremendously. But
she was looking at how can I even add to that?
(33:12):
And so again from cross talk and being able to
have that insight, but even having a clinical oversight and
actually having takeaways that are tangible from a professional.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
So Catherine were going to say then well, I's going
to say to you.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I mean, obviously we have a similar story as well.
But I think for us, with our parents the generation,
they didn't talk about it, they didn't communicate.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
You know.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
So I know that we also my mother's still alive
and we have that issue, but the communication is not
like this.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Well, and my grandfather was an alcoholic, so it was
genetic and it was what she learned to live with.
And you either marry one become one is the statistic
that leads that. So her emotional bandwidth for it was
it's so comfortable to her, which is crazy, but it's
true because it's unhealthy.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
But she saw it. Have you gotten in the.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Mends from your mom?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
She would say yes, she would say yes, for sure,
you know, but no, not really, not really.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
What would you want or need say?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's that's the that's the that's the part that's hard
for me because I don't long for that like you do.
My brothers do. I think I think that they've they've
handled it very differently. I was kind of the one
where I'm like, I just don't even want to like,
I'll take it, I'll take your you know whatever apology
and just like move over here. I just kind of
(34:33):
compartmentalized it, put it over here. But I also don't
know that she has the capacity to apologize in the
right way. Yeah, she doesn't have the tools that you know,
she truly didn't and doesn't you know. And I think
that it's a different generation. Very not that that's an excuse,
but I do. I think people are doing the things
that you're doing and paying attention and are getting honest
(34:55):
and you know, and I don't think she's at that place.
I don't think she's fully ever gotten honest with their So.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Yeah, we don't have a lot of ownership going on.
So no, not really either.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
But again not again, it's not an excuse, but it
just feels so generational. I think we're just more open
to it now, we're talking about it more now, people are.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
More aware of it.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
But not to switch gears. But I do have a
question kind of in regards to that, like, since it
is genetic, have you all had conversations about your own
children and like what that can possibly look like in
the future, because that's tough.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
Yes, and so we are very aware of that. When
we had conversations probably even a couple of years ago,
around this and how we're going to navigate this and
corporate the communication with our kids because you know, they
got a fifty to fifty chance of having it having it,
like I mean pretty severely. This based on my genetic
(35:55):
makeup and the background and the history, and so we
were already We're already starting the conversation with Delilah around
mental health. And again is what I like for every morning,
Like we start at she's five years old, and so
we wake up and we do a gratitude list. We
do through things that she's grateful for and why, and
I do that with her.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
And I was thinking about that when you said that.
I was like, I'm gonna do that with my kids.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
And so I mean, but we made it up, like
we made it a cool process where she lights candles
and it's kind of this experience where she looks forward
to doing to you know, doing it, and when we
don't do it, she's like, Dad, we didn't do our
gratitude lists. And so it's just starting to incorporate these
little behaviors and then just even when she's really upset,
getting on her level, getting you know, literally physically getting
on my knees and just talking to her at her
level and just understanding and kind of walking through these
(36:41):
processes because you know, we had to just we had
the shooting that just happened, and it was too close
figuratively and literally, I mean it was it was twelve
minutes from our house and it was this same age
as our kids. And to have to sit down and
have that conversation with Delilah, you know that that you know,
not only is there you know, trainings and or you
(37:04):
know you're enough you know, for for tornadoes and for
earthquakes and and things like that, but now there's you know,
for we got to use the term like bad, bad
people that can come on to campus and and that
you know that can you know, for an active shooter
type of thing. And it's like how you how do
you break that down? Again, Ashley was instrumental in that
process and and and how we did that. But it's
(37:26):
having that conversation, and I think what we're really trying
to do is create a really safe place for them
to come to to talk and communicate. And you know,
because there's pretty fascinating statistics that are out there. I mean,
if you're if you don't drink or use drugs or
any mood altering substances by the age of twenty one,
even ninety percent chance of never struggling with addiction. And so.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
My husband is that Preacher's kid never drank, really never
did anything. Still has never done a drug in his life.
He's forty eight.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Yeah, insane.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
But I think just kind of looking at some of
those things and just really trying to make and show
and leveraging the knowledge that we have today, right because
I also think that where there's a default from like
the baby boomers and some of the older demographic because
they really didn't even know how to process or share
what was really going on. They weren't there, just weren't
equipped with it. And so I think we're in a
different time now, but it's it's being present, and I
(38:18):
think the best thing we can do is being there
for our kids and to know that they can trust us,
they have a safe place to come to, and that
they have support.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Like literally, I can die happy knowing like that's what
I've done with my kids, Like that is like that
has been my goal since I could understand what the
goal was. Yeah, it just matters. It is I'm not
going to nail it. I'm not trying to be perfect,
but just the breaking of the cycle. And it's not
lost on me that my daughter and I were do
a day apart ended up being two days apart. Like
(38:49):
God is just really the hand and the poetic ability
of all of that is just never lost on me.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
So good.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
The statistics that you were sharing with me too fascinated
me with the binge drinking that's going on in our
age right now, isn't it. Can you lay some of
those stats out well?
Speaker 5 (39:07):
Actually coming here, That's why we did the PSA. We
actually did a public service announcement around this, but moving
to Tennessee that the number one health crisis in the
state of Tennessee has beinge drinking.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
And so when we age our age like the right,
isn't it like thirties, forties, fifties.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
I'm not sure about that piece, But I think the
thing that you're talking about is the leading cause of
death in America for fifty old individuals and younger is
substance abuse. So I mean, it's literally the leading cause
of death. And so when you look at this, that's
what I'm saying, it's not going anywhere. And I mean
prior to I'll give you. You know what the craziest
thing is is prior to COVID, somebody was overdosing at
(39:49):
the rate of of every eleven minutes. You know what
it is today one every ninety seconds.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
So do you think that's because of fetanyl too?
Speaker 5 (40:00):
It's yeah, I mean that that adds to it. But
it's it's again, is like I even asked the question
and start the conversation. Is you know, we talk about
how much fentanyl and how much opiates and how much
you know, how many drugs are coming into the into
the to the States. My question is is why is
there such a high demand?
Speaker 4 (40:17):
Mmm?
Speaker 5 (40:18):
Like, Okay, it's one, yeah, we understand that, but why
are so many people wanting to do it? Like why
are they so disconnected?
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Like it's a business.
Speaker 5 (40:26):
Well no, but like why are some men wanting to
do a state? Right?
Speaker 4 (40:29):
I mean like you don't have you don't have a business.
If you do, client, well that's.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
My place exactly. But being in a very sober state,
I mean not my younger self, but now it's like
I would never want to partake in any of that stuff.
I'd be you know, I mean if I ever had
the thought of a beer sounds good or something like.
Of course that thought comes and goes, and it's how
I process. And that's and and again it's it's it's fleeting.
It comes and goes. But like just looking at what
(40:54):
is out there today, and like you know, with with
opiates and the it's just like I can't I can't
imagine like if the landscape has changed, is what I'm
getting at. I mean, it's you were younger. It wasn't
like we're going to take something and we were going
to die. Right.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Well, here's the here's the thing that so I've never
I've never touched a drug because I've always been afraid
that I'm gonna die. Right, But back then you wouldn't
like it's unless you like overdosed, right, But like now
I'm like to my kids, if you even try the
small you could you will die, like most likely it's
a freaking fentanyl. Like that's where I'm place with something. Yeah,
that's why I'm like that piece. I'm like, just don't
do it.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
Yeah, it's it's crazy, you know, it's just really it's
the world we live in is different today, and it's
just that's why I'm saying, like it's just you look
at like, what are why are there such a high
demand for these types of things that are that are
out there? It's really alarming.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Do I.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
One of the things that you know, like you're saying
right now, with everyone you know wanting to the drugs
and stuff, I just wish there was an easier reach
for people to be able to have therapy because I
think that's an issue to a lot of people are like,
well I can't afford it, and it's like, oh, like
what therapy has done for all of us in this
room has been amazing. It's helped with so much. That's
(42:05):
the piece where I'm like, why, I just wish there's
something we can do And I know you do that
right with what you're working on right now.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah, And well, I mean that's I think the more
that we can get behind that, we can get more
people supporting that effort is important. Like that's the stuff
that I'm doing and working with doctor Amen at the
Change your Brain Foundation is we're trying to have it
be more accessible for people to actually get scans of
their brains. And I think the thing that really that
I love around this and it's even changing the narrative
(42:33):
of how we look at mental health, right, and we've
been treating mental health the same way we have for
the last one hundred and fifty years. We've been clustering
a bunch of symptoms and throwing medication at it, when
in reality, we know the organ that's directly impacted, So
why are we not focusing on it? And that's being
the brain. And through spect imaging where you can actually
see the deficiencies through where people have less blood flow
(42:56):
through their brain, you can actually see what may be
causing or triggering different things. And so I think the
more that we provide access and we can actually get
to the core root cause of this, it's going to
help us be able to treat further and further and
have better treatment plans for these types of things. But
I think you know, from the stuff that we're doing
at doctor Aman allowing people to actually get brain scans
of what's going on within their brain to see what's
(43:17):
going on, and then being able to set them up
with appropriate therapists and psychiatrist to be able to come
up with an effective treatment plan, I mean, we need
to make that more readily available for people. It's it's
it's it's it's it's time.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
It's literally the only way that I've been able to
do anything.
Speaker 5 (43:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, Three things you're grateful for to end this on
a happier note.
Speaker 5 (43:37):
Oh my gosh, I'm grateful for my sobriety. I'm grateful
for our relationship with God, and I'm grateful that I'm
able to be present today.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah. Well, Jason, we're so happy that you came on
the show. Thank you for again doing what you do.
And I'm proud to be your friend and I'm happy to,
you know, to watch you do everything you're doing and
join forces with you. So thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
Thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Thank you
Host
Jana Kramer
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