May 24, 2023 • 36 mins
It’s time we talk about it… making friends is hard! Jana talks to author and podcaster Laura Tremaine about how to find meaningful friendships as an adult, and how to properly mourn and grieve the end of a friendship.
Laura shares some incredible advice on how to find exactly what you’re looking for in a friend, and we hear the importance of keeping an “empty chair at your table”.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind down with Janet Kramer an I'mheart Radio podcast. All right,
this line about it. We have Laura Tremaine. So she
grew up in Oklahoma. She moved to Los Angeles when
she was twenty two years old. So she's worked in
film television production for many years, MTV, VH one, Fox,
Paramount Pictures, but now she is full time writing. She
(00:23):
has shared a lot about her life with anxiety, mother,
had a marriage. She has a podcast as well, but
right now she's got a book out called The Life Council,
Ten Friends every Woman Needs. There's a lot of times
I get questions about friendships, frind breakup. So let's dive
in with Laura tremain. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm good? How are you look? We both have neon
behind us.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Our signs? What's your sign?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Say? It says share your stuff. It's kind of hard
to see on the.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Oh, yep, there it is. You Do you share your stuff?
You like sharing your stuff?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I mean I've made a career of it.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Same girl. What's the downside for you of sharing your stuff?
I'm curious, like we're because I have some.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean there's a few. The obvious one would be relational,
like with people in my real life. Of like, there
I attract people in my real life who are the
opposite of sharers, and so they don't love that I
share my stuff. Even though I try to be very
mindful and respectful of that, it's still it's tricky. And
(01:31):
then the other part, the second hardest part, I think
would be because I've been doing this for so long
that when you change, you change your mind on something,
you change the way you believe, the way you vote
a take you might have had ten years ago. When
that changes, it's harder to walk it through because what
(01:54):
makes sense to you in your spirit or even would
make sense to people in your real life. People online
are whatever, have not followed all the dots, you know
what I mean. So it's just like and nor do
they have to, but like it's just harder to unpack
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Why do you think you attract more people that are
private like relationally? Because it's interesting because I when I
was dating post divorce, a lot of the people that
were very like, very private, like they just they wanted
to stay private. They relationally wanted to stay private like
you know, And I was like, this is interesting that
(02:28):
I keep picking the same person.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I mean, I like, is the is it dumb to
say opposites attract I honestly think my first instinct when
you asked that question, I always try to go with
my kind of gut instinct is not that I'm necessarily
attracted to private people. It's that private people are very
attracted to me. Like I don't feel like I am
(02:53):
as overtly taking something from their privacy as they might
need from someone who likes to share and talk. And
doesn't mean I don't take anything from them, but I
mean just that particular aspect.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Like you're saying, like it's a trait that they wish
they had.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Or that they're attracted to, that they want more of,
or that they like observing. You like being in proximity
to because a lot of people they don't necessarily I
don't necessarily teach them to open up over time, but
they like being in proximity to people who open up,
but they like listening or observing. Yeah, my husband would
(03:28):
say that for sure, and then some of my closest
friends would also say that, And then I have family
members who would never say that. They're like, Nope, they
don't like it, and they still don't like it right.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, my boyfriend, he's he's definitely way more private, and
you know, he was kind of had that conversation like,
you know, I'm like, I'm I talk about a lot
of things now. He's like, well, I think the only
thing I wouldn't want, you know, to talk about is
when we have those we face those hardships up. Because
I used to have a podcast with Max husband, So
(04:00):
I'm like, I would never go back to that because
that was like two open wounds, you know, that was
an oversharing and that I think affected us in the
long run. So like, I wouldn't I would never do
that again with any relationship moving forward again because I
saw the negative effects of that. Now they were positive, sure,
(04:24):
but at the you know, but also I think more
so like negative. So I was like, I would never
come in and be like, oh, I'm you know, I'm
mad am I this person, you know what I mean,
Like I always I will I said, I will always
share us as in a positive light, you know, and
because I think that helps, you know, keep the relationship
strong too, not think because when you were having all
these negative thoughts, it's like it's not good.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I kind of worried about that with my book writing
a book about friendship, even though I wrote about it
very positively, it felt like a little bit like what
you're saying, like when you know, when you see married
couples go on a reality show about their marriage, and
then what always happens is they get worsd Like I
felt that way about writing a book about friendship. I
(05:06):
was like, if am I going to write about all
my friends and then end up friendless? Like this is
what's going to happen? Is this the natural trajectory of
things that has not happened so far? But I think
it is human nature. It's almost like we're jinxing it
or when you put it out there, you know, that's
a vulnerability that you're exposing yourself to. And I try
(05:27):
not to believe that God or the universe works that way,
like in a vengeful way, like you put yourself out there,
so then you're going to get something bad back. I
have to train my brain to not think like that.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
No, I totally a hear you I've written something and
it's you know, writing things like what if you know
something happens or whatever. But it's like your friends are
especially I'm sure the ones that you write about in
your book are friends that have been on such a
journey with you through a lot of your seasons. Now
I'm curious, like in that, like are there because you
(05:59):
talk about the friends that you need, you know, are
there new season friends in there? Are those? The ones
that you worry about? Are the ones that have been
there for for a long time.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Both, I probably care more about those that have been
there for a long time. To damage those would be
really detrimental to me as a human versus new friends,
which I love new friends. Actually the new friend chapter
in the book is one of my favorite sections. But
there's less stakes with a new friend if that ended
(06:31):
or if there was damage there with an old friend,
you know, it's like such a part of your heart.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Oh yeah, I mean yes, my best friend Kat and
I mean the very few times we've had disagreements, it's like,
oh my god, it feels like a like it's that
scary feeling of like I can't lose this. It's like
a family member, you know. It's like that's how fifteen
years of like love and but you know, people change
(06:58):
and they grow and you just hope that they're they're
there through you and I mean, I feel very fortunate
with the friends that I have that it's stuck with
me through some of my best seasons and some of
my worst seasons, and some of my ugly seasons, you know,
where I haven't been the best version of myself. But
I think, you know, I'm curious with your book. You
(07:19):
know a lot of why I think my friends like
I have the friends that will be like I need
you to look in the mirror on this one, you know,
and kind of call me out because I need that.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, I mean, I start the book out with a
little bit of a call out. The first section of
the book is called a friendship reckoning because in twenty twenty,
I said something hurtfull accidentally. I just was multitasking and
not thinking it through on a group text, and it
hurt one of my friends so badly she was almost
(07:54):
willing to end our friendship over it. Now. It was
the height of the pandemic, emotions were running high. Texts
can obviously be misconstrued, but.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, it was. It was.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
It was definitely a thing like I've had to walk
through those hard friendship moments, had hard conversations, had to
say do we want to move forward? It's terrible. I
wanted to start the book out that way because I
didn't want anyone to think that I was coming from
a place of perfect friendships, right or not? Right?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Why did you want to write a friendship book? Where
was that?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Because I've been sharing myself on the internet for over
ten years and the friendship topic kept coming up. Now,
I will say I started when I was a blogger,
like in two thousand and nine, like a long time ago.
I started that blog from a place of loneliness. I
had moved to Los Angeles from Oklahoma, where I'd had,
(08:51):
you know, a hometown friend group and a college friend
group and a summer camp friend group and a youth
group friend group and all these things when I was young,
and I moved to this city of ten million people
thinking I would have the same types of friends. And
I didn't. And I spent a lot of my twenties
working in film and television production. When I got married
and we decided to start a family, I was at
home without work friends, without very many local friends, and
(09:14):
I was super lonely. And so I started this blog. Well,
I blogged about a lot of things. I wrote about
a lot of things for many years, but I did
blog about this idea of not having very many local
friends and this huge city that came up a lot,
and so many women would reach out and say they
were lonely, but they were lonely in their hometowns, or
(09:34):
they were lonely in their new cities or in their
new marriages or whatever, and nobody could figure out why,
like nice people couldn't make friends, you know, like what
was wrong with us? And so that just came up
time and time again. I always knew that I wanted
to write about it, but what held me back from
writing about it for a long time was, first of all,
(09:56):
there's a lot a ton out there about friendships, Like
there's a lot a lot of books out there, and
the ones that are out there are like very research driven,
or they're like by therapists or you know, a psychologist
or whatever. And I was like, I don't have like
the credentials to write, to write a book about relationships,
because I don't. I only have my own lived experience.
I don't have, you know, academic background, but I do
(10:21):
have like hundreds literally hundreds of hours of talking on
my own podcast, writing on this blog, talking about on
social media, of hearing from other women over a decade
about this topic. So I finally got to myself. I
finally got myself to a place where I felt like
I can write about this as long as I set
it up as I'm not an expert or I'm you know,
(10:43):
not a researcher here. I just want to start this
as a conversation. This book should be a conversation, much
like my own show is, because I want other women
talking about it with their friends and they talk about
it with me. They need to talk about it in
their friend circles or with their you know, online buddies, whoever.
But we need to be talking about some of these
(11:04):
aspects of friendships. Nobody ever talks about friendship. We talk
about marriage, we talk about parenthood, we talk about aging parents,
we talk about childhood trauma. People do not talk about friends.
We have like friends, it's just like water, just like they're.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Or that they're going to stay there too, you know.
And I think, you know, it's a you bring up
a good point with what you how you start the
book because something happened and that was again like my
best friend Kat, who's one of my co hosts on
my Monday show, like we we've maybe had in fifteen years.
Three arguments that really, you know, were like rocked us.
(11:43):
And the one recently happened when I was over in
England because my I don't take a minute when I
when I respond back to something, I don't respond. I
respond kind of feelingless I because I'm not meaning to
hurt feelings. And I don't think that I'm going to
hurt feelings because I'm my intention is not to hurt feelings.
(12:07):
But I said a text that ended up hurting your feelings.
But I was like, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
But I didn't even think about how it because I
just put the text message out. It was very work related,
but it was how I like said it, and you know,
her feelings are hurt and I'm you know, I'm talking
to my boyfriend like I don't understand. But then I'm like,
oh my god, that's not that wasn't my intention. He's like, well,
when you write it like that, I'm like, but that's like,
(12:29):
why would she even think that, Like she's my best friend, like,
and so I think that's hard because we just think
that their bullet proof when they're not. And that was
kind of a lesson than I had to go. Well, shoot,
I have to be mindful now of how I use
my words, even in my girlfriend friendships. And I've been
so aware since I because I'm like, she's one of
(12:51):
the most important people in my life. I don't want
to upset her or make her think that she's not
important or any of those things. You know well.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And also the other part of that is is one
of my core I have five core friendship philosophies in
the book, and one of them is believe the best.
So it doesn't mean that you didn't say it in
your best way. I mean clearly you didn't.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Right, I just I just can be very direct because
we work together too. She's my day to day manager,
like you know what I mean. So it's just like
I can. I just am very direct sometimes.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Right, So, and I believe you, and I'm sure she
knows that about you, so she can still say this
hurt my feelings. I don't like it when you speak
like this to me, Like I, you know, need a
little bit more padding in a direct comment whatever however
she wants to phrase it for you. But when you're
having that hard conversation about this hurt my feelings. Please,
(13:43):
don't you know, speak this way or whatever. To believe
you start that conversation believing the best about one another,
like if she believed the worst about you, or even
not the best of like yeah, you were trying to
be mean, you treat me like an employee, I don't
know whatever wherever her brain went. Instead, if you can
(14:04):
both start a hard conversation believing the best, like I
know that you didn't mean it this way because I
know you and I trust your heart. However, when you
text like this, it bums me out. And then you
can believe the best about her. You believe you know
that she's coming to you with pure intentions, that she's
not trying to like cause a big work fight or whatever.
(14:24):
If you don't believe the best about each other in
one of these hard conversations, this is when you get
these like deep riffs, when you start to like think, oh,
she's actually secretly thinking this, or that she doesn't believe
the best about me, so that it makes us defensive,
like how could like you just said, how could you
think I was being mean? Like you know me? You
(14:44):
on both sides. You have to believe the best because
you want them to believe the best about you, you
have to offer the same grace to her, which it
sounds like you guys did, but it's it's easier said
than done, for sure.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Why do you think friendship conversations like aren't talked about?
Is it just because people can just they're fine to
let go of them, or is it like another work
thing that they feel like they have to, like you know,
then going to like therapy with your friend.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Well, I do not think people are good to let
go of them. We already mentioned friendship breakups are it's
so painful. I have talked to so many women who've
said that their friendship breakup of a best friend, like
a deep friendship ending, was more painful than their divorce,
was more painful than romantic breakups. Like it was that devastating,
(15:45):
and culturally we do not give it any weight. Like
if you go through a romantic breakup, people are like, yes,
stay in bed, have your grieving period. Nobody says that
about friendship breakups. You just act like, oh, you're just
gonna pick up another friend. You know you're out of milk,
you get more milk. Like people treat friendships like it's
this unending resource when I don't find that to be true.
(16:08):
But to answer you a question of why we don't
talk about it more, I think we've learned about friendships
when we're really young, like elementary school age, when you
first start to learn how to be friends, like be kind, share,
you know, that kind of thing, and then we just
never revisit the rules that we learn when we're young,
or the patterns that we get in when we're young.
(16:29):
We literally never revisit it because it's almost like these
this thing in life that we take for granted, Like
you learn to read, you don't need to relearn to
read when you're an adult, like you just it's a
thing we learned, we got it, you do it or
you don't, which actually isn't true, because we learn friendships
and how to be a friend like under a completely
(16:51):
different life circumstances. So like we learn to be friends
primarily at school, so we're at school together eight hours
a day. Even when we get to be on adulthood,
like in college or post college life, if you have roommates, whatever,
you are learning friendship with a lot of time on
your hands, like a lot less responsibility, a lot more resilience, frankly,
(17:14):
and then you get to adulthood, life is so different.
You have work, you have a mortgage, maybe you have kids,
maybe you have health stuff. I don't know, And suddenly
you can be like, I don't I don't have the
same amount of time to give toffriends. I don't have
the same amount of energy. I don't understand why making
friends take so much effort when earlier in my life
it was so easy. It was sort of served up
(17:36):
to me that was my problem is friends were always around.
So when I got to Los Angeles, I was like,
I didn't know you had to like make all this effort,
like ask people on a friend date or like introduce yourself.
Like I'd never had to practice any of those skills
in the first twenty years of my life, and so
it was really eye opening to me to become an adult.
(17:58):
And I think that this is true for a lot
of people, Like we had no idea. We're never taught
that there's maintenance involved and effort involved and friendship and
and for a lot of people, we don't ever really
examine it until something bad happens, until we go through
a lonely period, until we have a friend break up,
you know, until we go through something where we're like, oh,
(18:20):
I maybe haven't paid much as much attention to friends
as I should have.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, I think that piece is hard. Like I mean,
I have a high school, high school best best friend,
you know, since middle school, and we don't talk hardly
at all. Really, I mean, you know, we maybe catch
up once a month. You know, it's been a little
bit more now, but before I was a couple every
or so months. But I still love her, you know,
(18:48):
very much. It's just you know, with kids and getting older,
it's different states. Like it's it's really hard. But I
will say that the fallout friendships I'm curious about because
in my mind, I'm like, there's you know, there's been
one for sure that really hurt. But in my mind,
I go, Okay, well, I guess that friendship just didn't
mean as much to them as it did to me.
(19:08):
And like do do I did? I wouldn't have wanted
that anyways, if that's how it was gonna.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Be, Well, why do you assume it didn't mean as
much to her because she was willing to end it?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
She was Well, it wasn't a she, it was a yeah,
he like he sold something to a story. Oh and yeah,
and it was my best friend, so it was that
was really hard, you know, because like we had a
fallout and then you go do that, so it's like,
were you even my best friend?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah? No, that is a betrayal. Yeah, so that's different.
I think that's like in a different category of friendship breakup.
Like a betrayal especially like of that magnitude is enormous
and something you'll you'll never get over that. I mean,
that can't be repaired most ship breakups, I think, are
(20:02):
you know, you hurt my feelings, we're growing apart.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Do you think those kind of friendships are repaired.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I think they can be, But I don't think most
friendship breakups or friendship changes like we're talking about, involve
immense betrayal. What you're describing is a mince betrayal. I'm
just saying that to affirm to you that that is
a whole different level of grief that you have to
go through on top of leaving, on top of losing
(20:29):
the friend.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, it was a long time ago, but yeah, and
it was not fun. But that's what I always kind
of that's l like my arm kind of went out
to a lot of like I keep people at very
I have a very small circle, and I have a
hard time letting other new friends come in just because
I don't like who can I trust, right, and like
who's not going to say something or you know.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, it seems like that would be harshly a public
figure problem, like in some way, like you're going to
have different considerations than sure other people do. But that
affects a lot of people too, Like I grew up
in a really small town, so public figure is relative, right,
But it's the same thing of who can you trust?
(21:16):
Who is going to harm my reputation or share a
secret or anything like that. Anyone who's gone through something
hard will tell you that they circle the wagons right
with like the closest people. Because your betrayal happened in adulthood.
(21:38):
But this happens to a lot of us when we're young.
If you get mean girled, if you're bullied, if your
best friend in high school steals your boyfriend, all those
different stories that can for sure affect the way that
you do friendship going forward, even on you know, just
in your own life, it only affects you, but it
affects you, like for the rest of your life of
how you walk in friendship, Like I A lot of
(22:04):
times hear women say some version of this diminishes a
little as we get older. But when we're younger, don't
you hear women who are like, oh, I'm a guys girl,
Like I only have guy friends. All I hear when
I hear a woman say that is who hurt you?
Like somebody hurt you. It doesn't mean that you can't
prefer to be around men, and like, really love that dynamic.
(22:26):
I'm sure you do. But when you swear off a
whole gender set that is probably coming from a place
of hurts. You probably got mean girled. You probably lost
your best friend in some really painful way, and so
now you don't trust women anymore, you know, you only
trust men? And yeah, I just think we get into
these habits a lot of times. They start when we're young,
(22:48):
and we never examine them when we're older, of like, well,
why don't I have more friends? Or why is it
hard for me to make friends? Or why don't I
trust people?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
And do you write all about all that in your book?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I mean yet not quite as exactly as we're talking
about it, but for sure I talk about the patterns
that we learned when we're young and how it affects
our adult friendships. The main point of the book is
more though, about addressing our loneliness, because so many of
us feel lonely in so many different types of circumstances
(23:22):
in so many cities, big and small. And I really
wanted to write about what I had to do, which
was changed my perspective on friendships. When I didn't have
very many local friends in LA I had to make
something work for myself. I turned to the internet. I
made internet friends, which I do write about. I poured
(23:43):
into my childhood friends that were back in Oklahoma, which
is where I was from. But I was like, I'm
just going to invest in these relationships even though they're
not local, Like I'm going to call more, email, more,
that kind of thing. I looked around at co workers
and even though they weren't like my type of galpal
that I pictured, like this was a coworker, but we
(24:05):
that's an intimacy because we saw each other every single day,
we had lunch together every day. They understood a part
of my life, my work life that other people didn't understand.
So I'm going to sort of elevate these people that
are in my life, which is what a lot of
the book is about. Looking around at your existing landscape
and instead of feeling like I don't have any friends
(24:27):
or I don't have enough friends, or feeling this lack
that a lot of us feel, which makes us feel
lonely disconnected, to look around who is there and see like, Okay,
maybe I wouldn't have given this person the title of
friend because they're my neighbor, they're a sports mom, they're
a coworker, whatever, but I'm going to see that actually
(24:49):
they are a part of my daily life. I'm a
part of theirs, and sort of elevating all of these
relationships in our life that we either don't give credit
to or like. Another big piece I think is we
have a friend, but she doesn't tick a certain box
for us, like she's super fun, but like you would
(25:10):
not have a heart to heart with her, or the opposite,
like she's great for a heart to heart, but like
maybe she's a stick in the mud. I say that
because I'm that person, like I will love to deep
die with you, but like I'm not ever described as fun. Probably,
So instead of seeing like our friends like uh, like
(25:30):
she's not quite like she's not this or that or whatever.
Like I really want a friend that's x y Z
that we can be Like no, let the heart to
heart girl be the heart to heart girl, and then
find you a fun friend that never wants to go deep.
Those are two different people that does not have to
be the same person, and they are going to serve
on your life counsel. And what a joy it is
(25:51):
to like see people in their strengths instead of thinking
that they're not fulfilling you in some way. This also
freezy up for you to be that way too. Like
I just said, like I'm not exactly the fun friend.
I have other people that I let be the fun friend,
Like I'm gonna live for sure. Yeah, Like yeah, call
me when you want a heart to heart. If you
(26:11):
want a margarita, call Tracy, Like I just for sure.
That's how we have, Like there's five of us in
a little queendom. We have like a little quendom chat.
But it's like every single one of us have the
like if you're gonna go if you want just like
a really fun get dressed up, You're gonna go with Pammy.
If you want like a heart to heart. You're gonna
come to me like I will. We will spill everything together.
If you want just to like chill out watch TV,
(26:33):
you're gonna go to cat like it's like we're all
we all have our thing and it's like but together
we we're great.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Well that is the life Counsel. That's the whole book.
You already have it. You don't need to read.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Oh very okay, Well that was my next question because
you say you know the ten friends you knew. I
was like, give meet because I was like, obviously I
want the listeners to read read the book as well,
so not give them all away, but like, what's one
friend you really need?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh, I'll give them all away. I have no problem.
I want to read the book, but I also like
want people to kind of know what they're getting into.
I'll read you all ten, but we can focus on
whichever ones kind of peek your interest. Okay, there's the
daily duty friend, which, by the way, I did not
have a daily duty friend till I was forty years old.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
There's the best that's my that's my girl, Tanya. That's
like I think if I hear when I hear daily duties,
it's like things that we you know, we have the
same sports kids and we do the exports activities together
and like we you know, I help pick up kids,
same school stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Same mine is a fellow sports mom. But I think
when we think of friendship, we think all friends should
be daily duty friends, like only text every day, we
talk all the time. And my deepest friendships are not
all that. I didn't have a daily duty friend, like
I said, till I was forty, But I've always had friends. Okay,
here's the other the old friend, the business bestie, the
(27:55):
fellow obsessive. So that's a big one. That's a pop one.
The battle buddy, Okay, what's the battle buddy? Someone who
is going through the same battle you are.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Okay, got it, And that can.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Be any battle, you know, surface level or deep. And
they understand this battle in a way that other people don't.
And maybe you only bond on the battle like again,
kind of like the coworker. Maybe you aren't connecting in
other ways. Your life circumstances don't look anything else alike,
(28:31):
but you're both walking through this particular fire. That kind
of companion is like absolutely priceless. Okay. Then there's the
yes friend, that's the fun friend, the mentor.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
The yes friend's also a dangerous friend. Though I've had
to really nip.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Those wait say more.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Because I need to be challenged, I need to like
be held to being and I can do it on
myself now. But in my twenties the friends were the
worst of my friends because twenty Jana's was not great.
Thirty is you know, now I can like, I'm going
to be forty this year, so like now I'm like, okay,
like I can call myself out now. I don't really
(29:12):
like whether it's a yes or no. It's like, but
back in twenty is, those were like, they were fun,
but they didn't help me become a better version of myself.
But I guess that wasn't their job. It was mine
all along.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I hope that they gave you some good memories.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
They sure did.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That's right, that's right, and that's a value you can
be like and my my yes friends are in the past.
They live in my scrap books.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Don't really, Yeah, they live in Los Angeles and they're
still there.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
The other oh, here we go, okay, the mentor, the
password protector, the new friend, the soul sister, and then
there's a bonus that I write about, not one of
the ten friends, but there's a seat at the table
called the empty chair.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I love that sounds like my therapist. I thought, the
empty chair. What do you signify as the empty chair?
Is it someone that's like in the like a moment,
(30:21):
or is it just a feeling thing or well.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I wanted to write about the empty chair because I
wanted to give space in the book for friendship breakups,
friendship loss, which we already talked about, but I also
really wanted so that's the first part of the empty
chair section. But I also really wanted to keep a
chair empty at your metaphorical life council table as like
(30:48):
hope for the friends to come, like almost like I
leave a light on for you, like I'll leave an
empty chair for you. Because I think sometimes, as we
already talked about circling our wagons, sometimes we have like
a closed off vibe of like I have all the
friends I need, I don't need it more on my
to do list, I don't have capacity for a new person.
(31:10):
And if that's the energy that we're putting out and
some once we go through seasons where that's the us,
we can do, which makes sense. But also there are
so many amazing people that can come into our life,
that can flow into our life, and if we do
not have a metaphorical empty chair for them, we are
going to miss out on an amazing relationship. And so
(31:31):
I always wanted my circle to be open and not closed,
and so that required having an empty chair. It's two sided.
It's the chair can be held in grief, in memorial
in you know, sadness of a friendship ending, but then
it can also turn and be like, well, I have
an open seat at my table sort of like that's
(31:53):
like Taylor Swift's blank space. I have a blank space
for you.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I know. I love that because I'm I'm a big
believer that God sends you people all the time, and
so it's being open open eyes to that, like I'm
I will I will welcome people in when it feels like,
you know, that empty seat, like I just I love
that even though I can be guarded and not trust,
(32:18):
I still am open to the like, Okay, is this
someone that, like I'm, it's supposed to move and me
in a certain way and like, you know, help me
with the season or something or so I'm very mindful
of that piece, and I'm also curious to wrap up.
There's a lot of when we do talk about friendships,
a lot of people are like, how do you deal
with friendship breakup? So it's like, if there's someone out
(32:38):
there that's listening that wants to reconcile a friendship breakup,
but they don't want to be the first one, right
because like I know, like with me and my best friend,
it's like sometimes we're just so stubborn and so we
don't want to be the first one to be like
I'm sorry, and so like, how would you, like, what
would you say to the person that like misses their
best friend they had to fall out and they want
to like get it back.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Okay, well you have to lose the ego part of it.
You have to. You just have to talk yourself off
that legend be the first to reach out. And then
let me explain what I did with my friend that
I described that we had a text rift in the
middle of the pandemic. It's how I start the book off.
I could tell by our interactions after I said the
(33:22):
thing that hurt her feelings, that she was so willing
to end our friendship, and I did not want that
to happen. So what I did was, this is a
silly story, but I am glad to tell it. I
asked her to come over so we could talk face
to face. We sat in the backyard because this was
fall twenty twenty. Who sat in the backyard six feet apart?
(33:43):
I set up my backyard. It looked like a date night.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Oh my god, I am obsessed.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I love that I had flowers, I had champagne. I
put like candles out like I almost giggled once I
kind of got it going because I'll like, this fully
looks like I'm trying to seduce her. It's fine. I
wanted to give the conversation and the friendship like a reverence.
Like I wanted her to walk in the backyard and
(34:11):
feel like I cared because I did right, and that
this was like my last ditch effort to make this work.
So I did this because I had had a friendship
breakup in the past, A dear, dear friendship breakup in
my past, that I didn't fight for that friendship. I
(34:32):
let it end. I had so many regrets after for
all the things I didn't say, even if the friendship
was going to end, I wish that I had expressed
things in a different way, you know, just like we
do with romantic relationships when we are like I understand
why this is ending, but also I want to like
leave it all on the table, like I want to
say all the things. I had not done this with
this friendship in my past. So if this this twenty
(34:56):
twenty friendship rift I was going through, if it was
going to end, I was not going to make the
same mistake like I was going to leave it all
out on the blanket with the flowers like I was.
I was going to let her know if she chose
to end it. I wanted her to know I loved
her and that I was sorry and everything and.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Did everything you could do. I did everything like you
could walk away going okay, I did everything.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, why are we Why do we only put that
type of effort into romantic relationships? Like my friendships are
so important to me. I didn't want it to end.
I treated it like the weighty conversation that it was.
And she told me later when she walked into the backyard,
she was definitely sort of mad and like a defensive
(35:39):
mode whatever. And then when she walked in, she sort
of melted because she could see immediately what I was
trying to do. And we still went on to have
a card conversation. We still both cried, we still had
moments where we were defensive and irritated, but we were
sitting with these flowers and candles.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Did she accept the final rose? Yes? She did.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
And you know, this actually sort of ties back to
the empty chair in a weird way, because you have
to be willing to receive. You have to be willing
to receive what people are offering to you. And I
was offering a sincere apology and a hope to mend
that friendship, and she chose to receive it. I'm glad
(36:20):
she did, right.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
I love that. Well, that's I mean. I'm excited to
read your book. So thank you Laura so much for
coming on the show. Everyone get the life console ten
friends every woman needs. I love it. Thank you so
much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
This was awesome. Thank you for having me.
Wind down with Janet Kramer an I'mheart Radio podcast. All right,
this line about it. We have Laura Tremaine. So she
grew up in Oklahoma. She moved to Los Angeles when
she was twenty two years old. So she's worked in
film television production for many years, MTV, VH one, Fox,
Paramount Pictures, but now she is full time writing. She
(00:23):
has shared a lot about her life with anxiety, mother,
had a marriage. She has a podcast as well, but
right now she's got a book out called The Life Council,
Ten Friends every Woman Needs. There's a lot of times
I get questions about friendships, frind breakup. So let's dive
in with Laura tremain. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm good? How are you look? We both have neon
behind us.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Our signs? What's your sign?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Say? It says share your stuff. It's kind of hard
to see on the.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Oh, yep, there it is. You Do you share your stuff?
You like sharing your stuff?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I mean I've made a career of it.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Same girl. What's the downside for you of sharing your stuff?
I'm curious, like we're because I have some.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean there's a few. The obvious one would be relational,
like with people in my real life. Of like, there
I attract people in my real life who are the
opposite of sharers, and so they don't love that I
share my stuff. Even though I try to be very
mindful and respectful of that, it's still it's tricky. And
(01:31):
then the other part, the second hardest part, I think
would be because I've been doing this for so long
that when you change, you change your mind on something,
you change the way you believe, the way you vote
a take you might have had ten years ago. When
that changes, it's harder to walk it through because what
(01:54):
makes sense to you in your spirit or even would
make sense to people in your real life. People online
are whatever, have not followed all the dots, you know
what I mean. So it's just like and nor do
they have to, but like it's just harder to unpack
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Why do you think you attract more people that are
private like relationally? Because it's interesting because I when I
was dating post divorce, a lot of the people that
were very like, very private, like they just they wanted
to stay private. They relationally wanted to stay private like
you know, And I was like, this is interesting that
(02:28):
I keep picking the same person.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I mean, I like, is the is it dumb to
say opposites attract I honestly think my first instinct when
you asked that question, I always try to go with
my kind of gut instinct is not that I'm necessarily
attracted to private people. It's that private people are very
attracted to me. Like I don't feel like I am
(02:53):
as overtly taking something from their privacy as they might
need from someone who likes to share and talk. And
doesn't mean I don't take anything from them, but I
mean just that particular aspect.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Like you're saying, like it's a trait that they wish
they had.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Or that they're attracted to, that they want more of,
or that they like observing. You like being in proximity
to because a lot of people they don't necessarily I
don't necessarily teach them to open up over time, but
they like being in proximity to people who open up,
but they like listening or observing. Yeah, my husband would
(03:28):
say that for sure, and then some of my closest
friends would also say that, And then I have family
members who would never say that. They're like, Nope, they
don't like it, and they still don't like it right.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, my boyfriend, he's he's definitely way more private, and
you know, he was kind of had that conversation like,
you know, I'm like, I'm I talk about a lot
of things now. He's like, well, I think the only
thing I wouldn't want, you know, to talk about is
when we have those we face those hardships up. Because
I used to have a podcast with Max husband, So
(04:00):
I'm like, I would never go back to that because
that was like two open wounds, you know, that was
an oversharing and that I think affected us in the
long run. So like, I wouldn't I would never do
that again with any relationship moving forward again because I
saw the negative effects of that. Now they were positive, sure,
(04:24):
but at the you know, but also I think more
so like negative. So I was like, I would never
come in and be like, oh, I'm you know, I'm
mad am I this person, you know what I mean,
Like I always I will I said, I will always
share us as in a positive light, you know, and
because I think that helps, you know, keep the relationship
strong too, not think because when you were having all
these negative thoughts, it's like it's not good.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I kind of worried about that with my book writing
a book about friendship, even though I wrote about it
very positively, it felt like a little bit like what
you're saying, like when you know, when you see married
couples go on a reality show about their marriage, and
then what always happens is they get worsd Like I
felt that way about writing a book about friendship. I
(05:06):
was like, if am I going to write about all
my friends and then end up friendless? Like this is
what's going to happen? Is this the natural trajectory of
things that has not happened so far? But I think
it is human nature. It's almost like we're jinxing it
or when you put it out there, you know, that's
a vulnerability that you're exposing yourself to. And I try
(05:27):
not to believe that God or the universe works that way,
like in a vengeful way, like you put yourself out there,
so then you're going to get something bad back. I
have to train my brain to not think like that.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
No, I totally a hear you I've written something and
it's you know, writing things like what if you know
something happens or whatever. But it's like your friends are
especially I'm sure the ones that you write about in
your book are friends that have been on such a
journey with you through a lot of your seasons. Now
I'm curious, like in that, like are there because you
(05:59):
talk about the friends that you need, you know, are
there new season friends in there? Are those? The ones
that you worry about? Are the ones that have been
there for for a long time.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Both, I probably care more about those that have been
there for a long time. To damage those would be
really detrimental to me as a human versus new friends,
which I love new friends. Actually the new friend chapter
in the book is one of my favorite sections. But
there's less stakes with a new friend if that ended
(06:31):
or if there was damage there with an old friend,
you know, it's like such a part of your heart.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Oh yeah, I mean yes, my best friend Kat and
I mean the very few times we've had disagreements, it's like,
oh my god, it feels like a like it's that
scary feeling of like I can't lose this. It's like
a family member, you know. It's like that's how fifteen
years of like love and but you know, people change
(06:58):
and they grow and you just hope that they're they're
there through you and I mean, I feel very fortunate
with the friends that I have that it's stuck with
me through some of my best seasons and some of
my worst seasons, and some of my ugly seasons, you know,
where I haven't been the best version of myself. But
I think, you know, I'm curious with your book. You
(07:19):
know a lot of why I think my friends like
I have the friends that will be like I need
you to look in the mirror on this one, you know,
and kind of call me out because I need that.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, I mean, I start the book out with a
little bit of a call out. The first section of
the book is called a friendship reckoning because in twenty twenty,
I said something hurtfull accidentally. I just was multitasking and
not thinking it through on a group text, and it
hurt one of my friends so badly she was almost
(07:54):
willing to end our friendship over it. Now. It was
the height of the pandemic, emotions were running high. Texts
can obviously be misconstrued, but.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, it was. It was.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
It was definitely a thing like I've had to walk
through those hard friendship moments, had hard conversations, had to
say do we want to move forward? It's terrible. I
wanted to start the book out that way because I
didn't want anyone to think that I was coming from
a place of perfect friendships, right or not? Right?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Why did you want to write a friendship book? Where
was that?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Because I've been sharing myself on the internet for over
ten years and the friendship topic kept coming up. Now,
I will say I started when I was a blogger,
like in two thousand and nine, like a long time ago.
I started that blog from a place of loneliness. I
had moved to Los Angeles from Oklahoma, where I'd had,
(08:51):
you know, a hometown friend group and a college friend
group and a summer camp friend group and a youth
group friend group and all these things when I was young,
and I moved to this city of ten million people
thinking I would have the same types of friends. And
I didn't. And I spent a lot of my twenties
working in film and television production. When I got married
and we decided to start a family, I was at
home without work friends, without very many local friends, and
(09:14):
I was super lonely. And so I started this blog. Well,
I blogged about a lot of things. I wrote about
a lot of things for many years, but I did
blog about this idea of not having very many local
friends and this huge city that came up a lot,
and so many women would reach out and say they
were lonely, but they were lonely in their hometowns, or
(09:34):
they were lonely in their new cities or in their
new marriages or whatever, and nobody could figure out why,
like nice people couldn't make friends, you know, like what
was wrong with us? And so that just came up
time and time again. I always knew that I wanted
to write about it, but what held me back from
writing about it for a long time was, first of all,
(09:56):
there's a lot a ton out there about friendships, Like
there's a lot a lot of books out there, and
the ones that are out there are like very research driven,
or they're like by therapists or you know, a psychologist
or whatever. And I was like, I don't have like
the credentials to write, to write a book about relationships,
because I don't. I only have my own lived experience.
I don't have, you know, academic background, but I do
(10:21):
have like hundreds literally hundreds of hours of talking on
my own podcast, writing on this blog, talking about on
social media, of hearing from other women over a decade
about this topic. So I finally got to myself. I
finally got myself to a place where I felt like
I can write about this as long as I set
it up as I'm not an expert or I'm you know,
(10:43):
not a researcher here. I just want to start this
as a conversation. This book should be a conversation, much
like my own show is, because I want other women
talking about it with their friends and they talk about
it with me. They need to talk about it in
their friend circles or with their you know, online buddies, whoever.
But we need to be talking about some of these
(11:04):
aspects of friendships. Nobody ever talks about friendship. We talk
about marriage, we talk about parenthood, we talk about aging parents,
we talk about childhood trauma. People do not talk about friends.
We have like friends, it's just like water, just like they're.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Or that they're going to stay there too, you know.
And I think, you know, it's a you bring up
a good point with what you how you start the
book because something happened and that was again like my
best friend Kat, who's one of my co hosts on
my Monday show, like we we've maybe had in fifteen years.
Three arguments that really, you know, were like rocked us.
(11:43):
And the one recently happened when I was over in
England because my I don't take a minute when I
when I respond back to something, I don't respond. I
respond kind of feelingless I because I'm not meaning to
hurt feelings. And I don't think that I'm going to
hurt feelings because I'm my intention is not to hurt feelings.
(12:07):
But I said a text that ended up hurting your feelings.
But I was like, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
But I didn't even think about how it because I
just put the text message out. It was very work related,
but it was how I like said it, and you know,
her feelings are hurt and I'm you know, I'm talking
to my boyfriend like I don't understand. But then I'm like,
oh my god, that's not that wasn't my intention. He's like, well,
when you write it like that, I'm like, but that's like,
(12:29):
why would she even think that, Like she's my best friend, like,
and so I think that's hard because we just think
that their bullet proof when they're not. And that was
kind of a lesson than I had to go. Well, shoot,
I have to be mindful now of how I use
my words, even in my girlfriend friendships. And I've been
so aware since I because I'm like, she's one of
(12:51):
the most important people in my life. I don't want
to upset her or make her think that she's not
important or any of those things. You know well.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And also the other part of that is is one
of my core I have five core friendship philosophies in
the book, and one of them is believe the best.
So it doesn't mean that you didn't say it in
your best way. I mean clearly you didn't.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Right, I just I just can be very direct because
we work together too. She's my day to day manager,
like you know what I mean. So it's just like
I can. I just am very direct sometimes.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Right, So, and I believe you, and I'm sure she
knows that about you, so she can still say this
hurt my feelings. I don't like it when you speak
like this to me, Like I, you know, need a
little bit more padding in a direct comment whatever however
she wants to phrase it for you. But when you're
having that hard conversation about this hurt my feelings. Please,
(13:43):
don't you know, speak this way or whatever. To believe
you start that conversation believing the best about one another,
like if she believed the worst about you, or even
not the best of like yeah, you were trying to
be mean, you treat me like an employee, I don't
know whatever wherever her brain went. Instead, if you can
(14:04):
both start a hard conversation believing the best, like I
know that you didn't mean it this way because I
know you and I trust your heart. However, when you
text like this, it bums me out. And then you
can believe the best about her. You believe you know
that she's coming to you with pure intentions, that she's
not trying to like cause a big work fight or whatever.
(14:24):
If you don't believe the best about each other in
one of these hard conversations, this is when you get
these like deep riffs, when you start to like think, oh,
she's actually secretly thinking this, or that she doesn't believe
the best about me, so that it makes us defensive,
like how could like you just said, how could you
think I was being mean? Like you know me? You
(14:44):
on both sides. You have to believe the best because
you want them to believe the best about you, you
have to offer the same grace to her, which it
sounds like you guys did, but it's it's easier said
than done, for sure.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Why do you think friendship conversations like aren't talked about?
Is it just because people can just they're fine to
let go of them, or is it like another work
thing that they feel like they have to, like you know,
then going to like therapy with your friend.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Well, I do not think people are good to let
go of them. We already mentioned friendship breakups are it's
so painful. I have talked to so many women who've
said that their friendship breakup of a best friend, like
a deep friendship ending, was more painful than their divorce,
was more painful than romantic breakups. Like it was that devastating,
(15:45):
and culturally we do not give it any weight. Like
if you go through a romantic breakup, people are like, yes,
stay in bed, have your grieving period. Nobody says that
about friendship breakups. You just act like, oh, you're just
gonna pick up another friend. You know you're out of milk,
you get more milk. Like people treat friendships like it's
this unending resource when I don't find that to be true.
(16:08):
But to answer you a question of why we don't
talk about it more, I think we've learned about friendships
when we're really young, like elementary school age, when you
first start to learn how to be friends, like be kind, share,
you know, that kind of thing, and then we just
never revisit the rules that we learn when we're young,
or the patterns that we get in when we're young.
(16:29):
We literally never revisit it because it's almost like these
this thing in life that we take for granted, Like
you learn to read, you don't need to relearn to
read when you're an adult, like you just it's a
thing we learned, we got it, you do it or
you don't, which actually isn't true, because we learn friendships
and how to be a friend like under a completely
(16:51):
different life circumstances. So like we learn to be friends
primarily at school, so we're at school together eight hours
a day. Even when we get to be on adulthood,
like in college or post college life, if you have roommates, whatever,
you are learning friendship with a lot of time on
your hands, like a lot less responsibility, a lot more resilience, frankly,
(17:14):
and then you get to adulthood, life is so different.
You have work, you have a mortgage, maybe you have kids,
maybe you have health stuff. I don't know, And suddenly
you can be like, I don't I don't have the
same amount of time to give toffriends. I don't have
the same amount of energy. I don't understand why making
friends take so much effort when earlier in my life
it was so easy. It was sort of served up
(17:36):
to me that was my problem is friends were always around.
So when I got to Los Angeles, I was like,
I didn't know you had to like make all this effort,
like ask people on a friend date or like introduce yourself.
Like I'd never had to practice any of those skills
in the first twenty years of my life, and so
it was really eye opening to me to become an adult.
(17:58):
And I think that this is true for a lot
of people, Like we had no idea. We're never taught
that there's maintenance involved and effort involved and friendship and
and for a lot of people, we don't ever really
examine it until something bad happens, until we go through
a lonely period, until we have a friend break up,
you know, until we go through something where we're like, oh,
(18:20):
I maybe haven't paid much as much attention to friends
as I should have.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, I think that piece is hard. Like I mean,
I have a high school, high school best best friend,
you know, since middle school, and we don't talk hardly
at all. Really, I mean, you know, we maybe catch
up once a month. You know, it's been a little
bit more now, but before I was a couple every
or so months. But I still love her, you know,
(18:48):
very much. It's just you know, with kids and getting older,
it's different states. Like it's it's really hard. But I
will say that the fallout friendships I'm curious about because
in my mind, I'm like, there's you know, there's been
one for sure that really hurt. But in my mind,
I go, Okay, well, I guess that friendship just didn't
mean as much to them as it did to me.
(19:08):
And like do do I did? I wouldn't have wanted
that anyways, if that's how it was gonna.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Be, Well, why do you assume it didn't mean as
much to her because she was willing to end it?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
She was Well, it wasn't a she, it was a yeah,
he like he sold something to a story. Oh and yeah,
and it was my best friend, so it was that
was really hard, you know, because like we had a
fallout and then you go do that, so it's like,
were you even my best friend?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah? No, that is a betrayal. Yeah, so that's different.
I think that's like in a different category of friendship breakup.
Like a betrayal especially like of that magnitude is enormous
and something you'll you'll never get over that. I mean,
that can't be repaired most ship breakups, I think, are
(20:02):
you know, you hurt my feelings, we're growing apart.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Do you think those kind of friendships are repaired.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I think they can be, But I don't think most
friendship breakups or friendship changes like we're talking about, involve
immense betrayal. What you're describing is a mince betrayal. I'm
just saying that to affirm to you that that is
a whole different level of grief that you have to
go through on top of leaving, on top of losing
(20:29):
the friend.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, it was a long time ago, but yeah, and
it was not fun. But that's what I always kind
of that's l like my arm kind of went out
to a lot of like I keep people at very
I have a very small circle, and I have a
hard time letting other new friends come in just because
I don't like who can I trust, right, and like
who's not going to say something or you know.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, it seems like that would be harshly a public
figure problem, like in some way, like you're going to
have different considerations than sure other people do. But that
affects a lot of people too, Like I grew up
in a really small town, so public figure is relative, right,
But it's the same thing of who can you trust?
(21:16):
Who is going to harm my reputation or share a
secret or anything like that. Anyone who's gone through something
hard will tell you that they circle the wagons right
with like the closest people. Because your betrayal happened in adulthood.
(21:38):
But this happens to a lot of us when we're young.
If you get mean girled, if you're bullied, if your
best friend in high school steals your boyfriend, all those
different stories that can for sure affect the way that
you do friendship going forward, even on you know, just
in your own life, it only affects you, but it
affects you, like for the rest of your life of
how you walk in friendship, Like I A lot of
(22:04):
times hear women say some version of this diminishes a
little as we get older. But when we're younger, don't
you hear women who are like, oh, I'm a guys girl,
Like I only have guy friends. All I hear when
I hear a woman say that is who hurt you?
Like somebody hurt you. It doesn't mean that you can't
prefer to be around men, and like, really love that dynamic.
(22:26):
I'm sure you do. But when you swear off a
whole gender set that is probably coming from a place
of hurts. You probably got mean girled. You probably lost
your best friend in some really painful way, and so
now you don't trust women anymore, you know, you only
trust men? And yeah, I just think we get into
these habits a lot of times. They start when we're young,
(22:48):
and we never examine them when we're older, of like, well,
why don't I have more friends? Or why is it
hard for me to make friends? Or why don't I
trust people?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
And do you write all about all that in your book?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I mean yet not quite as exactly as we're talking
about it, but for sure I talk about the patterns
that we learned when we're young and how it affects
our adult friendships. The main point of the book is
more though, about addressing our loneliness, because so many of
us feel lonely in so many different types of circumstances
(23:22):
in so many cities, big and small. And I really
wanted to write about what I had to do, which
was changed my perspective on friendships. When I didn't have
very many local friends in LA I had to make
something work for myself. I turned to the internet. I
made internet friends, which I do write about. I poured
(23:43):
into my childhood friends that were back in Oklahoma, which
is where I was from. But I was like, I'm
just going to invest in these relationships even though they're
not local, Like I'm going to call more, email, more,
that kind of thing. I looked around at co workers
and even though they weren't like my type of galpal
that I pictured, like this was a coworker, but we
(24:05):
that's an intimacy because we saw each other every single day,
we had lunch together every day. They understood a part
of my life, my work life that other people didn't understand.
So I'm going to sort of elevate these people that
are in my life, which is what a lot of
the book is about. Looking around at your existing landscape
and instead of feeling like I don't have any friends
(24:27):
or I don't have enough friends, or feeling this lack
that a lot of us feel, which makes us feel
lonely disconnected, to look around who is there and see like, Okay,
maybe I wouldn't have given this person the title of
friend because they're my neighbor, they're a sports mom, they're
a coworker, whatever, but I'm going to see that actually
(24:49):
they are a part of my daily life. I'm a
part of theirs, and sort of elevating all of these
relationships in our life that we either don't give credit
to or like. Another big piece I think is we
have a friend, but she doesn't tick a certain box
for us, like she's super fun, but like you would
(25:10):
not have a heart to heart with her, or the opposite,
like she's great for a heart to heart, but like
maybe she's a stick in the mud. I say that
because I'm that person, like I will love to deep
die with you, but like I'm not ever described as fun. Probably,
So instead of seeing like our friends like uh, like
(25:30):
she's not quite like she's not this or that or whatever.
Like I really want a friend that's x y Z
that we can be Like no, let the heart to
heart girl be the heart to heart girl, and then
find you a fun friend that never wants to go deep.
Those are two different people that does not have to
be the same person, and they are going to serve
on your life counsel. And what a joy it is
(25:51):
to like see people in their strengths instead of thinking
that they're not fulfilling you in some way. This also
freezy up for you to be that way too. Like
I just said, like I'm not exactly the fun friend.
I have other people that I let be the fun friend,
Like I'm gonna live for sure. Yeah, Like yeah, call
me when you want a heart to heart. If you
(26:11):
want a margarita, call Tracy, Like I just for sure.
That's how we have, Like there's five of us in
a little queendom. We have like a little quendom chat.
But it's like every single one of us have the
like if you're gonna go if you want just like
a really fun get dressed up, You're gonna go with Pammy.
If you want like a heart to heart. You're gonna
come to me like I will. We will spill everything together.
If you want just to like chill out watch TV,
(26:33):
you're gonna go to cat like it's like we're all
we all have our thing and it's like but together
we we're great.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Well that is the life Counsel. That's the whole book.
You already have it. You don't need to read.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Oh very okay, Well that was my next question because
you say you know the ten friends you knew. I
was like, give meet because I was like, obviously I
want the listeners to read read the book as well,
so not give them all away, but like, what's one
friend you really need?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh, I'll give them all away. I have no problem.
I want to read the book, but I also like
want people to kind of know what they're getting into.
I'll read you all ten, but we can focus on
whichever ones kind of peek your interest. Okay, there's the
daily duty friend, which, by the way, I did not
have a daily duty friend till I was forty years old.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
There's the best that's my that's my girl, Tanya. That's
like I think if I hear when I hear daily duties,
it's like things that we you know, we have the
same sports kids and we do the exports activities together
and like we you know, I help pick up kids,
same school stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Same mine is a fellow sports mom. But I think
when we think of friendship, we think all friends should
be daily duty friends, like only text every day, we
talk all the time. And my deepest friendships are not
all that. I didn't have a daily duty friend, like
I said, till I was forty, But I've always had friends. Okay,
here's the other the old friend, the business bestie, the
(27:55):
fellow obsessive. So that's a big one. That's a pop one.
The battle buddy, Okay, what's the battle buddy? Someone who
is going through the same battle you are.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Okay, got it, And that can.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Be any battle, you know, surface level or deep. And
they understand this battle in a way that other people don't.
And maybe you only bond on the battle like again,
kind of like the coworker. Maybe you aren't connecting in
other ways. Your life circumstances don't look anything else alike,
(28:31):
but you're both walking through this particular fire. That kind
of companion is like absolutely priceless. Okay. Then there's the
yes friend, that's the fun friend, the mentor.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
The yes friend's also a dangerous friend. Though I've had
to really nip.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Those wait say more.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Because I need to be challenged, I need to like
be held to being and I can do it on
myself now. But in my twenties the friends were the
worst of my friends because twenty Jana's was not great.
Thirty is you know, now I can like, I'm going
to be forty this year, so like now I'm like, okay,
like I can call myself out now. I don't really
(29:12):
like whether it's a yes or no. It's like, but
back in twenty is, those were like, they were fun,
but they didn't help me become a better version of myself.
But I guess that wasn't their job. It was mine
all along.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I hope that they gave you some good memories.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
They sure did.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That's right, that's right, and that's a value you can
be like and my my yes friends are in the past.
They live in my scrap books.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Don't really, Yeah, they live in Los Angeles and they're
still there.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
The other oh, here we go, okay, the mentor, the
password protector, the new friend, the soul sister, and then
there's a bonus that I write about, not one of
the ten friends, but there's a seat at the table
called the empty chair.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I love that sounds like my therapist. I thought, the
empty chair. What do you signify as the empty chair?
Is it someone that's like in the like a moment,
(30:21):
or is it just a feeling thing or well.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I wanted to write about the empty chair because I
wanted to give space in the book for friendship breakups,
friendship loss, which we already talked about, but I also
really wanted so that's the first part of the empty
chair section. But I also really wanted to keep a
chair empty at your metaphorical life council table as like
(30:48):
hope for the friends to come, like almost like I
leave a light on for you, like I'll leave an
empty chair for you. Because I think sometimes, as we
already talked about circling our wagons, sometimes we have like
a closed off vibe of like I have all the
friends I need, I don't need it more on my
to do list, I don't have capacity for a new person.
(31:10):
And if that's the energy that we're putting out and
some once we go through seasons where that's the us,
we can do, which makes sense. But also there are
so many amazing people that can come into our life,
that can flow into our life, and if we do
not have a metaphorical empty chair for them, we are
going to miss out on an amazing relationship. And so
(31:31):
I always wanted my circle to be open and not closed,
and so that required having an empty chair. It's two sided.
It's the chair can be held in grief, in memorial
in you know, sadness of a friendship ending, but then
it can also turn and be like, well, I have
an open seat at my table sort of like that's
(31:53):
like Taylor Swift's blank space. I have a blank space
for you.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I know. I love that because I'm I'm a big
believer that God sends you people all the time, and
so it's being open open eyes to that, like I'm
I will I will welcome people in when it feels like,
you know, that empty seat, like I just I love
that even though I can be guarded and not trust,
(32:18):
I still am open to the like, Okay, is this
someone that, like I'm, it's supposed to move and me
in a certain way and like, you know, help me
with the season or something or so I'm very mindful
of that piece, and I'm also curious to wrap up.
There's a lot of when we do talk about friendships,
a lot of people are like, how do you deal
with friendship breakup? So it's like, if there's someone out
(32:38):
there that's listening that wants to reconcile a friendship breakup,
but they don't want to be the first one, right
because like I know, like with me and my best friend,
it's like sometimes we're just so stubborn and so we
don't want to be the first one to be like
I'm sorry, and so like, how would you, like, what
would you say to the person that like misses their
best friend they had to fall out and they want
to like get it back.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Okay, well you have to lose the ego part of it.
You have to. You just have to talk yourself off
that legend be the first to reach out. And then
let me explain what I did with my friend that
I described that we had a text rift in the
middle of the pandemic. It's how I start the book off.
I could tell by our interactions after I said the
(33:22):
thing that hurt her feelings, that she was so willing
to end our friendship, and I did not want that
to happen. So what I did was, this is a
silly story, but I am glad to tell it. I
asked her to come over so we could talk face
to face. We sat in the backyard because this was
fall twenty twenty. Who sat in the backyard six feet apart?
(33:43):
I set up my backyard. It looked like a date night.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Oh my god, I am obsessed.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I love that I had flowers, I had champagne. I
put like candles out like I almost giggled once I
kind of got it going because I'll like, this fully
looks like I'm trying to seduce her. It's fine. I
wanted to give the conversation and the friendship like a reverence.
Like I wanted her to walk in the backyard and
(34:11):
feel like I cared because I did right, and that
this was like my last ditch effort to make this work.
So I did this because I had had a friendship
breakup in the past, A dear, dear friendship breakup in
my past, that I didn't fight for that friendship. I
(34:32):
let it end. I had so many regrets after for
all the things I didn't say, even if the friendship
was going to end, I wish that I had expressed
things in a different way, you know, just like we
do with romantic relationships when we are like I understand
why this is ending, but also I want to like
leave it all on the table, like I want to
say all the things. I had not done this with
this friendship in my past. So if this this twenty
(34:56):
twenty friendship rift I was going through, if it was
going to end, I was not going to make the
same mistake like I was going to leave it all
out on the blanket with the flowers like I was.
I was going to let her know if she chose
to end it. I wanted her to know I loved
her and that I was sorry and everything and.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Did everything you could do. I did everything like you
could walk away going okay, I did everything.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, why are we Why do we only put that
type of effort into romantic relationships? Like my friendships are
so important to me. I didn't want it to end.
I treated it like the weighty conversation that it was.
And she told me later when she walked into the backyard,
she was definitely sort of mad and like a defensive
(35:39):
mode whatever. And then when she walked in, she sort
of melted because she could see immediately what I was
trying to do. And we still went on to have
a card conversation. We still both cried, we still had
moments where we were defensive and irritated, but we were
sitting with these flowers and candles.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Did she accept the final rose? Yes? She did.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
And you know, this actually sort of ties back to
the empty chair in a weird way, because you have
to be willing to receive. You have to be willing
to receive what people are offering to you. And I
was offering a sincere apology and a hope to mend
that friendship, and she chose to receive it. I'm glad
(36:20):
she did, right.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
I love that. Well, that's I mean. I'm excited to
read your book. So thank you Laura so much for
coming on the show. Everyone get the life console ten
friends every woman needs. I love it. Thank you so
much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
This was awesome. Thank you for having me.
Host
Jana Kramer
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