March 23, 2023 • 38 mins
We’re putting the spotlight on Jana’s close friend Kathryn, who recently got back together with her husband after a separation and possible divorce! Her husband Nick joins the ladies and is put right in the hot seat!
Kathryn gets real about what their relationship was going through when they separated, and Nick tells a powerful story of an overwhelming experience he had the DAY before the divorce was about to be finalized.
Plus, find out what Kathryn and Nick are practicing to make sure their marriage doesn’t fall back into those same struggles.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
So we have Um. We teased us on the last
episode because I was talking about well, I mean, Kat
obviously has been very open about her journey in her
marriage on the podcast, and we've had Nick and Catherine
on I would say, oh, man, like four years ago
(00:25):
maybe on wine Down, and so to have them back
come full circle in this setting, it's going to be
really fun. And I'm very excited to have Nick Woodard
and Catherine Woodard on the podcast today. Hi, babe, hike,
I'm uncomfortable, can't I I don't think it's possible to
make me uncomfortable. I think because you're you're already so
(00:48):
open to begin with, yeah, just tell you how it is?
Well then well then yeah, fun, you want to go
Cherson first? Well, now you start, because I though you've
known the journey intimately. Well, I would just like to say,
let's back it up for a second and let's start
(01:08):
from the beginning. Um, Nick, I'll have you start, Um,
when how did you and Catherine meet? Where did you
guys meet? And when did you know she was the one?
Are we going to be? Uh? Well, are we going
to be one? Win? Down. You're unapologetically honest, so welcome. Well,
(01:29):
after after I graduated college, Um, I was living in
my sister's basement here in in Brentwood. And would you
go to college again Middle Tennessee State? Okay, would you
study marketing? Oh? Well yeah, okay, Um, at least you
followed you. Wow, okay. I don't know anybody that has
(01:50):
a degree that's specific to actually what they're doing. No.
I was like, okay, you do. Well, that's why you
guys are married. Continue music business? What music business? Oh well,
I mean you go to college. Yeah, I know. Anyway,
move on, cliff notes Nick though okay, he was like,
it was night nine. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna need
(02:13):
another hot tea for this one. Uh. The short answer
to the story is my Space. Oh, top four. She
worked her way into the top four? Wow? How did
you meet her on my Space? Though? A friend of
a friend. I don't even know. I don't remember how
that how that works? Like A found her attractive, so
I friended her, but let it be known, she contacted
(02:36):
me first. It's just like the sliding in the DM situation.
But I think I did slide first. We were sliding
before sliding was cool? Uh huh wait and she did first?
She did? Yeah, I think I did, because you just
saw him. Well, we went to school together, so I
knew who he was. Huh, and church together, so like
(02:56):
I knew who he was, and he dated a girl
that I cheered with and like all those things. So yeah,
I slid in and I played football with her her
older brother for I don't know what two three years.
So you guys dated for how long before you guys
got married? I don't know, bid. It was pretty quick?
Um ten months, ten months? So you got married? No, no,
(03:18):
we got engaged, sorry, ten months engaged and then married
four months later, four months later. I'll last back then
at this point, right, because four and a half months
twenty especially back then, I feel like you there was
longer engagement. They happened, Yes, they happened. The venue that
I wanted happened to have like a date. And the
truth comes up and remains on brand in her story
(03:44):
already perfect. Why are we surprised? I was like, done,
we'll make it work. I was like, well, we're going
to do this. So whether it's you know, quickly, you're
taking our time. So you got married at twenty I
was twenty three, right, Yes, I was twenty three. He
was twenty six. Yeah, something like that in that range. Okay,
(04:06):
and then you had your first kid at hold twenty
five twenty five. Wow, that's like all of our Michigan front.
I was just going to say, this is the Michigander
life crime engagement. Babies is how we were all, um,
which is what I wanted. I wanted to be like
a young mom doing it twenty four. I definitely didn't
do that. I didn't want that. No, no, no, ma'am
(04:32):
here in mc guinness book a World Records. Baby. Okay,
So you had your first son, who's just I mean,
he's might as well be thirty. Like that's insane. Um,
not because of how old you guys are. I'm saying
because you guys showed a picture and I'm like, he's
so old I know, and he's so responsible. We just
had this conversation last night. It's like he doesn't need
(04:54):
us at all. Like he would be fine, I said
last night, Like he could get his own apartment. Yeah,
he which is great. I mean that's like, no, it's
so good. But yeah, um, okay, So Nick, I have
a question for you okay, what was or if you
could pinpoint the first moment you remember distance growing in
(05:16):
your relationship ooh um. Probably probably the stereotypical. You know,
once you have kids, especially at a young age. You know,
we were both i'll say, starting our careers, you know,
trying to grow your career, and then you bring kids
into the mix. And what Emmy was only what a
(05:38):
couple of years after Caden, So like all we knew
for the longest time was the grind. You know, as
you're you're both trying to do your your careers, you're
both trying to advance, you're taking care of kids. Um,
you know, she would travel some, so I would take
some responsibilities, um solo, and then you know vice versa.
(05:58):
We we always kind of shared everything. And then your
focus is so just hurry, hurry and busy and taking
care of kids that I think sometimes you kind of
I don't say forget, but you're so overwhelmed with the
day to day that maybe you start to back off
of those very necessary things in order to grow in
(06:21):
your own relationship together. Necessary things being yeah, date nights
and intentionality. Yeah, I'd say, just you get overwhelmed with
stuff and you just you get into some patterns that
you know, on face value don't seem to be detrimental,
but over the course of time can be. And Catherine,
(06:45):
what about for you, like, was there can you can
you pinpoint a specific memory or moment that you kind
of was like, Oh, we're not this isn't like we're
not as close as we once were. It's funny because
him saying that, I'm like, well, I guess that's true,
but I don't. I never saw it that way, which
is so interesting to hear that. For me, it was
(07:05):
the obvious starting to argue, starting to fight. Year seven,
very memorable seven San Diego. Yes, the big fight, the
big San Diego fight was my big memory for sure.
You want to talk about it, yeah, I mean I
just know. I don't even remember the whole detail around it.
I just know that we were on a plane with you,
(07:28):
we talked about going to San Diego. I don't even
remember what he did that upset me so much, though,
the sad thing and that funny something about not wanting
to go or not wanting to spend the money, and
I just wanted him to like want to go or
to surprise me. It was something about wanting him to
want of course, and we just had on the way
home from the airport, we argued. We got home, we
(07:50):
were it was the first time we had truly fought
in front of the kids, and like really bad, Like
I asked him to leave, he refused to leave. So
I'm like sitting there holding my I mean, it was dramatic,
like very dramatic, and I was like, this can't be.
But I mean, I'm sure obviously there was things before
that that we were already growing apart. We're already you know,
(08:10):
building up before that. But that's my memory. Do you
think from San Diego you started, was that the shift
that you started to kind of push away even more? Yeah,
And my biggest thing was the kids. I was like,
we can't fight like this in front of the kids anymore.
So then I just kind of started to shut down.
So what's the timeline between San Diego and the decision?
(08:32):
And we obviously want to get more detailed into how
the decision to split or separate, But what's the timeline
between San Diego and the separation? How many years of
living in that feeling? Eight? Yeah? Yeah, eight a lot? Yeah,
And that feels heavy, like just even like, that's heavy,
that's almost a decade. And in those points, are you
(08:54):
guys sharing with each other that you feel distant? Is it?
And I'm asking these questions because I know I can
speak on behalf of myself, but I probably can confidently
speak on behalf of Jana too. In certain relationships, like
you just start to shut down, or there's resentment building,
or maybe there's you're not saying what you want, what
you need, what you feel like. Are you is this
(09:16):
the switch where you start to like make the file
folder where you're just putting in like in this I
don't like and that I don't like, Or are you
living in a space of like, Okay, I can tell
something's wrong and I'm trying to move us and it
just feels like you're not clicking. I'd say kind of
a mix of all of it. I mean, we did
couples therapy at the time, and it wasn't working well
for us. We would leave there. The last time we
(09:37):
went to couples therapy, we left and we were like
basically like we're either getting divorced or we're sweeping this
under the rug. Yeah, And so we just said it
was just creating more issues and not not to say
that therapy does that, because I think therapy is great. Yeah,
you know, y'all here know me. I'll talk to anybody
about anything. But I think if you don't have the
(09:58):
right fit, it can be detrimental. And I think we
were kind of in a situation where I don't know,
I guess we did ultimately want to change, but I
think we went into therapy figuring out how to make
the other person change instead of going in with the
focus on you. I think we kind of had the
(10:19):
wrong mindset and just the way I am was, Hey,
I made this commitment. We're in this together. Whether I
enjoy it or not, this is the commitment I made.
I'm going to see it through. And happiness is not
necessarily a part of the commitment. You know, Happiness comes
and goes. But with that said, it was yeah, well
(10:46):
it was a struggle for many, many years, but deep
down we always knew we had something amazing in there.
We just had to tap into it. Katherine, you're trumping, well,
I was thinking about us doing couples therapy and how
that didn't work for us us. I think a lot
of it for us, And I'm not like pointing fingers
or doing anything. It was I had the very obvious
(11:08):
childhood wounds. Um, I acknowledged those and when they were
coming out, so it was like, let's go to couples
therapy and fix Catherine. I felt that way and he
definitely felt that way. And it was one of those
we got into it, and again I wasn't in a
place to necessarily make changes. I was aware, but not
to make changes. And he was in a place of well,
my family was perfect and I'm perfect, and that was
(11:30):
just perfect were very you know, obvious. Mine were a
little bit deeper. Literally. The therapist would be like, so
nake about and he's like, my family's perfect. And I
was tell us about a childhood you do you have
you know, some stuff you you dealt with as a child,
(11:52):
And I was like, well, my parents were at every
game ever played. Dad told me loved me all the time.
So did mom. I was always hugged on, loved on. No,
pretty good, That's how that went. So I was like, yeah,
I've done. I feel like this is a copy paste
of my couple therapy. I'm like, so here's my open
giant winds and my husband's like, who's awesome? I basically
(12:12):
in the fifty sitcom and I'm like, cool, I'll head out.
I just thought we had to address that because I
think that like it's not but it's common. I mean
it has to feel at that point too, like how
to eat an elephant when bite at a time, right,
Like you sit down and you lay out what you
need to work through, and then you're like, okay, we
already have seven eight years under us, you know, or
(12:33):
whatever ten years at that point, and then you have
to go, how do we deconstruct to reconstruct? And let's
just do all of that in like one hour. And
then let's also go back to parenting kids, three kids
full time and working, both of you working full time,
like it takes a it's exhausting, and it's not easy
work in there, exhausting. In the eight years that you
(13:07):
guys were in that let's sweep or let's shove down,
push it down, push push, push, push, push, push push.
I want to ask both of you what was the
number one need that wasn't met? And I want you
to go a step deeper than just like we know
that you know, okay, maybe there wasn't as much sexual activity,
but I think it always goes like for me, like
when my X wasn't having sex with me, the I
(13:29):
was so upset, but it was the underneath or feeling
of yeah, I'm not loved or I'm not chosen. So
I'm curious what that was for you and what that
was for you For me? Um, you know, the intimate
intimacy aspect. Yes, sex is a part of it, but
that's again, that's one one little factor. It was the
(13:52):
it was the connectiveness, the the you know, wanting her
to show that she needed me. You know, I'm wired
like every other guy. I want to be a provider.
I want to I want to be needed. Um. You know,
she's a very independent woman, so, which is what attracted
me to her in the first place. But when you
(14:12):
start to get to a place where you're like, wow,
I could die tomorrow and she'd pick right up and
be fine. Yeah, that's that's a hard pick. Do you
honestly believe that I did at the time? Yeah, Katherine,
how does that make you feel? I mean I knew
he felt that way, and if I'm being completely honest,
I think part of me was like, yeah, I could,
(14:35):
you know, totally, like I've been built my whole life
trying to be independent, like this is me. You know,
it's a shame you and I don't have anything in common.
I know, I'm so over here like wow, well no,
I mean it's so truecause because I remember, like even
during those eight years you're like eyep, I was looking
at apartments and I'm like, it's like you you just
you've always been like you know business, I can handle
(14:56):
this and I can do this, and like it's a
beautiful quality. At the same time, that piece, I think
when you guys did separate, I'm like, I'm like, oh,
I don't want you to ever to be alone because
I'm like, I know maybe you say you're okay to
be alone, but I'm like, are you though forever? Like
you know, I'm like, I want you to find love
again and I want you to feel loved and because
you deserve that. So that piece, I was like, that
(15:16):
was my most like I was scared for you. On
that piece. I didn't want you just to like not
find love again and just like be like I can
do this by myself. Independence, I think is just such
a blessing and a curse. It truly is like I've
learned that for sure. For me. Oh, that's a hard one,
you know, me, it's hard to dig deeper. Let's dig deeper, Okay.
I think for me, my biggest wasn't necessarily what I
(15:41):
needed from him, because I couldn't pinpoint that I didn't
know what I needed from him. But I know my
issue was that I felt like a failure, Like I
just felt like, well, he's over here saying I need
X Y and Z needs I don't really know what
I need, and I'm just over here not being able
to accommodate those needs or not wanting to or not
(16:04):
feeling like I should be more like I grew up
with no physical touch and he wants physical touch, and
I'm like, I'm at a point where I don't even
know how to like, you know, like hold your hand,
you know, Like I didn't see that, and so I
just felt like a shut down failure. So it wasn't
necessarily that I'm over here like, well he's not giving
me x Y and Z. I used some of those
things as excuses, like I'd be like, well, you didn't
(16:28):
set up date night, or you didn't do this, or
you didn't do that, But truly it was just a
wall was up because I didn't know how to do
what I knew I needed to do well. And I'm
sure the more he pushed, the more you shut off. Yes,
well I was going to say that, like I became
someone that I wasn't. Yes, so over the years, like
I became needy. I attached me. Absolutely, Yeah, we were that. Yeah,
(16:50):
so you're you're we were the same human like it
made me cleany, made me like, you know, and then
she can pick up on the fact that you know,
I'm doing something for an agenda, like all right, we
got to go on a date night, so you know,
(17:10):
if I do this for her, then she'll do it.
Just became like a poker game. Um, and you can
both feel that, but you're not saying it right exactly,
You're just being that way. Yeah. Oh and then I
we did figure this out in therapy. Well, I finally
admitted it. I would create a fight, so like if
we were going to go on to date night, I
would sabotage it. I would like come up with something
(17:32):
and I would just create a fight. So then it
was like, okay, great, now we can go back to
our respective court alone. Yeah, you go to this room
right am over here. Ship that in work diary. So
then what was the what was the um the switch
for you, Catherine to go, Okay, I'm filing for divorce.
(17:56):
I started doing my own therapy, which was so much
more beneficial for me than a couple of therapy, not
knocking couples therapy, but my own journey. And my big
thing was I was living what I lived. My kids
were living what I lived as a child, and that
was killing me. Like they're not seeing affection, They're not
(18:17):
seeing us love each other, go on dates, you know,
do all these things. They're just seeing two independent people
do their own thing. We're getting along at this point,
we're not fighting really, but like this isn't what I
want for my kids. So that put me back into therapy,
and I was like, I'm a very decisive person. Usually
I hate living in the gray. I hate, you know,
and I was living there for so long. So finally
(18:38):
I was just like I have to make a decision,
like it is, something has to happen. And it was
kind of like there were two hards in front of me.
They both are a lot of work, and so I
just kind of made a decision and then I think
I was convinced it was the right decision for sure.
Let me add a little something to that though, like
(19:01):
you are, our situation was that's what made it feel
so weird when we were going through it. It's like
we still were the best of friends. There was just
something that was not connecting. Well, I think too, Like
every time we've had a conversation, she'd be like, he didn't.
He's not a cheater, he's not a nucle he didn't.
He doesn't drink, he's not He's an amazing dad. Like
(19:21):
she's like, it's like you were trying to find a
reason for the last eight years almost to be like, Okay,
that doesn't make it makes sense, to make it makes sense,
why the disconnect is there, or to leave right or
I wanted him to do it right because like you know,
my mom was the one that left my dad, and
I'm like, I don't want to be the mom that
makes the decision. That was the biggest piece for me.
(19:43):
It was like a standoff, who's going to budge first? Well,
and you I remember coming to the gym and you know,
we we were having a conversation and I'm like, but Nick,
that's not a way to live either, Like Nope, I'm
never going to divorce her. I'm like, so you're just
gonna be unhappy for the rest of your life. Well,
I'll not have your needs met, push it all down
and die first. That that was the plan. And I
was like, but that's not okay either. I'm like, I
love both of you, and y'all are fucking miserable, right,
(20:05):
Like it's okay that you didn't do this or she
didn't do that, Like you guys are just not happy together,
and like it's okay to walk away, Like you deserve happiness,
she deserves happiness. I think again, it's maybe that's a
difference in upbringing in that type situation, but it was
very much like, Okay, what's what's the hardest here? Me
(20:26):
me pushing it all down and just dealing with it internally,
or you know, my kids having two separate homes and
do like so and again there you kind of go
into far extremes in your head, like if we stay together,
it's going to be this way and we're going to
continue to go down this horrible path. If we break
(20:49):
it off, then you know, oh my god, my kids
aren't going to have a family. And it's it's so
you kind of go to extremes both ways. So the
easiest thing to do is nothing like status quo, right,
just keep it how it is, which isn't right by
any means, but well, the vulnerability it takes at that
point to lean into each other and get out of
(21:09):
your own way and out of each other's way and
just like lean in, it's just not even really an
option at that point. Like it's like it definitely didn't
feel like it was for sure. Yeah, so then what
was the thought for you, Catherine, to go, wait a minute,
maybe I'm making a mistake. You know. It's interesting because
(21:31):
when we weren't together, we got along so well. I mean,
it was like everybody around us, like, what the hell
are you doing? Ago? Can I just say that? Preston
and I were at home and he's like, this isn't
gonna last. And I was like their marriage and he's like, no,
them being a part. Maybe they're not supposed to be divorced,
and I was like, I feel it too, I'm confused.
(21:53):
We felt like your kids. All of us were like
explaining this stuff. You saying something Timmy, lets yeah, you
were like you, I don't know what it is, but
you guys had too much respect and too much love.
Like I was like, at the heart of this, you
have what it takes to be for forever. There's just
some icky surfacy stuff like we got to clean up
or something, but no one, no one goes through a divorce,
(22:14):
like y'all were going through a divorce, and I'm just like, like,
what do you want, baked, Yeah, take that, that's fine.
You need something. I'm like, we do the most mutual
admiration like moment, and I do think that exists in
divorces somewhere, but like eventually it kep. Yeah, I do,
but like for it to just be I was like,
all of a sudden, like I'm like, maybe I'll just
need different rooms or something, because it just feels like
(22:36):
a whole spaces all you're really wanting the dating. We
got different rooms, I got a whole new house for
a couple of months, but yeah, I moved out, you know,
the whole thing. And Kat was you know, you were
here here, here, she was outstairs where Yeah. Yeah, I
mean I think so we were getting along so well
(22:59):
and I think we truly figured out in that time
that like being best friends never left, you know. That
was always there. That was always the common thread. It
was just you know, the the being in a relationship
part of it. Um. But honestly, like it took it.
I hate to say it. It took us dating other
people for me to like really go whoa whoa way
(23:21):
to men, Nat get out there and you show them
that's your man girl. Yeah. But I very specifically remember
Kristen of here talking about one of your episodes turning
Cat into the wild in the right direction. I remember
(23:46):
getting a text from Nick going, well, now listen to
your podcast anymore, and I'm like, I'm so sorry. We're
just trying to make her like, you know, like happy,
Like you need to go be wild too if you want.
Like it was hard playing the like friends to both yah,
you know what I mean, because I'm like, I want
you to be happy, but I want you to be
happy and then you know, and then sometimes dating helps
you get back out there and feel like, oh, I'm
not going to be alone forever or like I'm good.
(24:07):
I think yeah, I think we can all agree that
Kat was never gonna be Cat in the wild wild,
you know, me getting away and every I spent a
lot of times fishing like those three or four months.
It was just I needed. Ninety percent of the time
I was alone, just processing, Okay, what's the future look like,
(24:29):
what's you know, what's going to happen moving forward? Um?
But what that said, it was such a weird feeling
because in my gut I knew it wasn't over. So
(24:55):
then that's interesting because I remember when we were sitting
up back and I said, what if she asked for
you back? And you're like, now I'm done? When when
once I get past a point, I'm done. Well, I
remember very specifically what I said to you. You were like,
you know, what if she comes about? And I said,
unless there is an act of God and a fundamental
change in our relationship, I can't go back through that again.
(25:15):
And nothing shy of an act of God and fundamental change,
I mean, and pursing you date other people potentially because
she realized And sometimes that's what it takes to see
like oh wait a minute, no, that A that's my man,
and B like you don't know what you have until
(25:35):
you like that's saying. There's a saying for a reason.
My favor saying now is um, sometimes people don't know
what you bring to the table. Till they see you
doing your thing at another table. But yeah, you know
what that said. I always knew at some point, you know, Yes,
I'm a relationship guy, So I was obviously going to
(25:58):
be looking for the things that I felt that I
didn't have. And I always knew at some point, you know,
I was going to meet somebody that wanted something more
than I was able to give. You some point, someone's
gonna want me to love them fully, and I knew
that I would never be able to do that because
(26:19):
I was still in love with Catherine. So that was
my biggest fear going You know, this relationship didn't work,
but the next one is not going to work either,
because I can't give them what they're gonna want because
he was putting me first. And that the other one
I sense a little it's a little little nat geo.
(26:44):
It's a little out in the wild Mike instinct. She
did get cat wild. She did. We just didn't see
that coming. So you were so to walk us through
that piece. Then, like, what was the conversation you had
with Nick to kind of get him back or say hey, whoopsies. Yeah,
So it started with no, no, It started with like
(27:05):
a very vulnerable conversation, not yet realizing that I fully
wanted him back. But it started with a very vulnerable
like I need to tell you that you were a
good dad, Like you did everything you could as a husband,
Like I needed to have that conversation with him. And yes,
it also evolved around someone else who was evolved, and
you know, it was a conversation but like you're my
(27:27):
best friend, and like we're co parenting, and like this
person doesn't get to come in between. You know, there
was a lot of that, and it was the most
vulnerable I'd been in a long time. That was the
first conversation. But I think we still thought he was
moving down that path and we were staying, you know, divorced.
And then I kind of had to evaluate my feelings
(27:49):
around it. I'm like, why am I so bothered by this?
Why do I feel like is it just because I'm jealous?
Is it just like And I really had to evaluate
my feelings on it, and then honestly, it was for me,
it was just such an act of God. It was
like in church something he said. I was just like,
do you remember he said, it was the day you
remember calling crying? Right, we are picking up The crazy
(28:12):
thing is she sent me the clip of that sermon.
I was like, yeah, I didn't pick up on anything,
but it was something that rocks well because you saw
it. It It was something about like, and people may not
agree with this, but like Christians don't just we don't
just throw away marriages, basically not saying like if there's
reasons and stuff like that, but we truly, to me,
(28:34):
never really had that like blow up a reason or whatever.
And it was something along that. It was something along
the lines of not just throwing away a marriage. And
my kids were there and I was just like, oh,
it was awful, and he was like, oh, yeah, the
kids will be fine, blah blah blah. I'm like, no, no no, no,
I need to come over. We need to talk, you know,
and it just kind of switched for me, and it
was just kind of like this moment, and so I
just went over there and like started talking, and he was,
(28:57):
you know, at first, hesitant, you know, as as he
should be, you know, and I didn't want to hurt
him further. So it was very much just a conversation
of like, I'm having these thoughts. I don't feel like
we did everything that we could have, but I don't
want to hurt you. I don't want you to have
to go through this again. So what do you think?
(29:18):
You know? And I just kind of sat there and
he was quiet. Well, I tell, I told, I've said
this depression too. I'm like, I think anytime you rebuild anything,
half of it fifty This is I want to remind
everyone I have a PhD in so but like for me,
fifty percent of it is a decided heart and the
other fifty is figuring out why you do what you do.
And I just feel like you had the fifty percent
(29:40):
trying to figure out why you do what you do.
But like once there's a decided heart, especially with a
brain like yours, Yeah, it's I mean it's on the
power point at that point. And you're done. So now
that you guys are reconciled and back together, you Okay,
Catherine did not get divorced. My kids, we or Ramsey
still thinks we did. But it's okay, we've got to
(30:04):
get there. You were about to right like it was
going to be on Monday. Yeah, yeah, the next day,
so you're not. So. Catherine is not divorced. They just
had a little bit of a separation we're going to
we're not. Now, what are you most aware of moving
forward so that you don't fall back? Well, this is
hard because I feel like the honeymoon stage is kind
(30:27):
of over right, um sneaking around, Yeah, good time. But
even at home there was still a honeymoon stage. I
feel like for a while now life is busy as
crap again. We're every which way and we're and it's
easy to fall back in. I mean, I think some
(30:48):
habits are starting to creep back in a little bit,
Like which ones like that are that we're glad to. Yeah,
when I first moved back in, like we were spending
every single night together watching TV together. They're like, but
the way we're both wired is we need us time.
You know, we're I've got clients pulling at me, She's
got you, you guys are Actually she's a client of
(31:15):
both here. So I think at this point it's just
being intentional with it and you know, kind of checking in,
like like she'll come in and be like, hey, I'm
gonna I'm gonna watch my show tonight. You good, We're good.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. So I think
the intentionality and being aware of those things that, you know,
(31:36):
don't let it become habitual as much as it wasn't
the past. Right, Yeah, I agree with that, and I
think we're very aware of it and we are just talking.
You know, before we never talked, so now we're talking
about it a lot. And there are definitely been certain
triggers that have come up for both of us. Oh yeah,
absolutely that we've had to talk through. You know, like
(31:57):
I got upset about something and then he autumn radically
goes so I can't go back to that place, you know,
and I'm like, it's fine, Like it's not that, you know.
So there's little triggers that will come up every now
and then that we just kind of have to talk through.
But so do you kind of get scared that she's
going to be like I can't do this anymore, I
want to divorce again or something. Do I get scared? No, Like,
I don't think it'll ever go to that again. The
(32:18):
anxiousness died a little bit. It died a little bit
because well, it's like my brain's telling you know, I'm
a very emotional person. So yes, I do get that
anxiety when I feel something building up, But in my head,
I'm also like, Okay, this isn't this isn't real, Like
you got to back it down a little bit. Yeah,
but yeah, I mean there was trauma in what happened.
(32:40):
So anytime there's, you know, any sort of conflict, I'm
going to have to over the years learn how to
back myself off that ledge knowing you know that that's
not where we're going here, So chill out a little bit, right,
But she's meeting you in a different place too, very
much like the vulnerability piece. Yes, even I've even noticed
(33:01):
with you in friendship, just the openness and the vulnerability
I really imagine, Well, it is, it's huge, and it
matters because you're such a special human being that it's
like to guard yourself as no one, Like it doesn't
do any of us any good, Like we need to
know all of you trust you, But it's true. So
(33:22):
like I feel like, because I'm an anxious attached, jan
is an anxious attached, I'm a graduated anxious attack. I'm
saying we could default. We could, that's where we default. Yeah,
I don't feel like I'm anxious. I might be in
severely independent anxious attached, but you're so independent at the
same time, well that's what I well, the other wing
(33:43):
is avoiding. Yeah, you just I'm avoiding yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay,
But like I know that when oh bless the same. Um.
I just feel like in the anxious attachment, if I
can become more vulnerable, there's just all sorts of walls
that go down when you say what you want, what
you need, what you feel. So I feel like it
(34:05):
probably lessens that anxious attachment because you have a little
security knowing like she's going to lean into you a
little bit too, you don't have to be so scared. Well,
I'll say the number one thing that opened my eyes
more than anything, Like I've always been a believer, but
there was always this hostility between me and God that
(34:27):
this is the one thing I want God, why won't
you let this happen? Like all I want is a
close relationship with my wife, and it's just getting further
and further apart. So when she did come back and
things change so abruptly, it was the most eye opening
(34:48):
experience in my spiritual walk that I've ever experienced. So
just knowing that, you know, I always knew God could intervene,
but I was always pissed off. Why wouldn't he, And
when it did happen, it blew my mind to a
point where I'm like, Okay, well now I truly believe
anything and everything is possible. Yeah. Well, I think that's
(35:09):
where the piece where, Like there was there was other
reasons that I um to this story, but I think
for people that are divorced, when I heard, I was like, well,
why didn't got an intervene in my marriage? Sure? You know,
and like that, like like how does he get to
pick which one? Yeah? He picks, you know, And so
then you question that too, like it's like from questioning
(35:30):
to questioning, and then it just like you're trying to
make sense of it. You know. That's the one thing
I learned in all this. You can't make sense of it. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean I think I think he just knows better
than us, and I think he knows who ends up
better on the other end and who does it? You know? Yeah,
oh for sure of it. But yeah, that's such a
good point. Yeah, I'll never forget. I had an absolute
(35:52):
I can't believe I'm saying this, but had an absolute
emotional melt down the night she came over and we
had that conversation like, I sobbed like I've never experienced
in my entire life, to the point like three days
later my stomach still hurt, and it was a whole
mixed bag of yes, relief, but more just the awe
(36:17):
of what God can do. Like that's the first time
I'd ever really experienced what I felt was answered prayers
answered prayers. Yeah, yeah, Wow. What would you say to
the people that are kind of struggling have struggled. It's
very similar to your marriage. What would be one piece
(36:38):
that they can kind of walk away with that you
think that they could take from this to keep ongoing
and keep maybe to go to go down this road
that you guys are on. Go first. But that's hard
for me. I think the number one thing for me obviously,
and everyone's different, but is the vulnerability piece. Just be
(37:00):
vulnerable and see where it leads you. Yeah, and just
be vulnerable, see where it leads you. It's beautiful. That's
really I think intentionality in yourself, you know, seriously, do
the work on you, because when you're struggling, it's not
because the other person is because of both of you,
(37:21):
you know, so you need to focus on you in
making the changes that will be beneficial to you as
a full couple. But on the other side of that,
you have to make acknowledgements when your partners trying to
do those things as well, because you have to have
those little victories throughout otherwise you'll just give up. Yeah,
(37:44):
that's true. Well, I mean I love you obviously both
love you guys so much. So this is I mean,
I love this story, love you. I just want to
say I called it. And just like we always say,
like marriage is hard, it's the grass is not always greener.
On the other side, everyone's going to have something. And
(38:04):
keep on working on yourself, keep on being honest, telling
the truth, and um you know yeah, like keep looking
in the mirror. And that's a wrap.
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
So we have Um. We teased us on the last
episode because I was talking about well, I mean, Kat
obviously has been very open about her journey in her
marriage on the podcast, and we've had Nick and Catherine
on I would say, oh, man, like four years ago
(00:25):
maybe on wine Down, and so to have them back
come full circle in this setting, it's going to be
really fun. And I'm very excited to have Nick Woodard
and Catherine Woodard on the podcast today. Hi, babe, hike,
I'm uncomfortable, can't I I don't think it's possible to
make me uncomfortable. I think because you're you're already so
(00:48):
open to begin with, yeah, just tell you how it is?
Well then well then yeah, fun, you want to go
Cherson first? Well, now you start, because I though you've
known the journey intimately. Well, I would just like to say,
let's back it up for a second and let's start
(01:08):
from the beginning. Um, Nick, I'll have you start, Um,
when how did you and Catherine meet? Where did you
guys meet? And when did you know she was the one?
Are we going to be? Uh? Well, are we going
to be one? Win? Down. You're unapologetically honest, so welcome. Well,
(01:29):
after after I graduated college, Um, I was living in
my sister's basement here in in Brentwood. And would you
go to college again Middle Tennessee State? Okay, would you
study marketing? Oh? Well yeah, okay, Um, at least you
followed you. Wow, okay. I don't know anybody that has
(01:50):
a degree that's specific to actually what they're doing. No.
I was like, okay, you do. Well, that's why you
guys are married. Continue music business? What music business? Oh well,
I mean you go to college. Yeah, I know. Anyway,
move on, cliff notes Nick though okay, he was like,
it was night nine. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna need
(02:13):
another hot tea for this one. Uh. The short answer
to the story is my Space. Oh, top four. She
worked her way into the top four? Wow? How did
you meet her on my Space? Though? A friend of
a friend. I don't even know. I don't remember how
that how that works? Like A found her attractive, so
I friended her, but let it be known, she contacted
(02:36):
me first. It's just like the sliding in the DM situation.
But I think I did slide first. We were sliding
before sliding was cool? Uh huh wait and she did first?
She did? Yeah, I think I did, because you just
saw him. Well, we went to school together, so I
knew who he was. Huh, and church together, so like
(02:56):
I knew who he was, and he dated a girl
that I cheered with and like all those things. So yeah,
I slid in and I played football with her her
older brother for I don't know what two three years.
So you guys dated for how long before you guys
got married? I don't know, bid. It was pretty quick?
Um ten months, ten months? So you got married? No, no,
(03:18):
we got engaged, sorry, ten months engaged and then married
four months later, four months later. I'll last back then
at this point, right, because four and a half months
twenty especially back then, I feel like you there was
longer engagement. They happened, Yes, they happened. The venue that
I wanted happened to have like a date. And the
truth comes up and remains on brand in her story
(03:44):
already perfect. Why are we surprised? I was like, done,
we'll make it work. I was like, well, we're going
to do this. So whether it's you know, quickly, you're
taking our time. So you got married at twenty I
was twenty three, right, Yes, I was twenty three. He
was twenty six. Yeah, something like that in that range. Okay,
(04:06):
and then you had your first kid at hold twenty
five twenty five. Wow, that's like all of our Michigan front.
I was just going to say, this is the Michigander
life crime engagement. Babies is how we were all, um,
which is what I wanted. I wanted to be like
a young mom doing it twenty four. I definitely didn't
do that. I didn't want that. No, no, no, ma'am
(04:32):
here in mc guinness book a World Records. Baby. Okay,
So you had your first son, who's just I mean,
he's might as well be thirty. Like that's insane. Um,
not because of how old you guys are. I'm saying
because you guys showed a picture and I'm like, he's
so old I know, and he's so responsible. We just
had this conversation last night. It's like he doesn't need
(04:54):
us at all. Like he would be fine, I said
last night, Like he could get his own apartment. Yeah,
he which is great. I mean that's like, no, it's
so good. But yeah, um, okay, So Nick, I have
a question for you okay, what was or if you
could pinpoint the first moment you remember distance growing in
(05:16):
your relationship ooh um. Probably probably the stereotypical. You know,
once you have kids, especially at a young age. You know,
we were both i'll say, starting our careers, you know,
trying to grow your career, and then you bring kids
into the mix. And what Emmy was only what a
(05:38):
couple of years after Caden, So like all we knew
for the longest time was the grind. You know, as
you're you're both trying to do your your careers, you're
both trying to advance, you're taking care of kids. Um,
you know, she would travel some, so I would take
some responsibilities, um solo, and then you know vice versa.
(05:58):
We we always kind of shared everything. And then your
focus is so just hurry, hurry and busy and taking
care of kids that I think sometimes you kind of
I don't say forget, but you're so overwhelmed with the
day to day that maybe you start to back off
of those very necessary things in order to grow in
(06:21):
your own relationship together. Necessary things being yeah, date nights
and intentionality. Yeah, I'd say, just you get overwhelmed with
stuff and you just you get into some patterns that
you know, on face value don't seem to be detrimental,
but over the course of time can be. And Catherine,
(06:45):
what about for you, like, was there can you can
you pinpoint a specific memory or moment that you kind
of was like, Oh, we're not this isn't like we're
not as close as we once were. It's funny because
him saying that, I'm like, well, I guess that's true,
but I don't. I never saw it that way, which
is so interesting to hear that. For me, it was
(07:05):
the obvious starting to argue, starting to fight. Year seven,
very memorable seven San Diego. Yes, the big fight, the
big San Diego fight was my big memory for sure.
You want to talk about it, yeah, I mean I
just know. I don't even remember the whole detail around it.
I just know that we were on a plane with you,
(07:28):
we talked about going to San Diego. I don't even
remember what he did that upset me so much, though,
the sad thing and that funny something about not wanting
to go or not wanting to spend the money, and
I just wanted him to like want to go or
to surprise me. It was something about wanting him to
want of course, and we just had on the way
home from the airport, we argued. We got home, we
(07:50):
were it was the first time we had truly fought
in front of the kids, and like really bad, Like
I asked him to leave, he refused to leave. So
I'm like sitting there holding my I mean, it was dramatic,
like very dramatic, and I was like, this can't be.
But I mean, I'm sure obviously there was things before
that that we were already growing apart. We're already you know,
(08:10):
building up before that. But that's my memory. Do you
think from San Diego you started, was that the shift
that you started to kind of push away even more? Yeah,
And my biggest thing was the kids. I was like,
we can't fight like this in front of the kids anymore.
So then I just kind of started to shut down.
So what's the timeline between San Diego and the decision?
(08:32):
And we obviously want to get more detailed into how
the decision to split or separate, But what's the timeline
between San Diego and the separation? How many years of
living in that feeling? Eight? Yeah? Yeah, eight a lot? Yeah,
And that feels heavy, like just even like, that's heavy,
that's almost a decade. And in those points, are you
(08:54):
guys sharing with each other that you feel distant? Is it?
And I'm asking these questions because I know I can
speak on behalf of myself, but I probably can confidently
speak on behalf of Jana too. In certain relationships, like
you just start to shut down, or there's resentment building,
or maybe there's you're not saying what you want, what
you need, what you feel like. Are you is this
(09:16):
the switch where you start to like make the file
folder where you're just putting in like in this I
don't like and that I don't like, Or are you
living in a space of like, Okay, I can tell
something's wrong and I'm trying to move us and it
just feels like you're not clicking. I'd say kind of
a mix of all of it. I mean, we did
couples therapy at the time, and it wasn't working well
for us. We would leave there. The last time we
(09:37):
went to couples therapy, we left and we were like
basically like we're either getting divorced or we're sweeping this
under the rug. Yeah, And so we just said it
was just creating more issues and not not to say
that therapy does that, because I think therapy is great. Yeah,
you know, y'all here know me. I'll talk to anybody
about anything. But I think if you don't have the
(09:58):
right fit, it can be detrimental. And I think we
were kind of in a situation where I don't know,
I guess we did ultimately want to change, but I
think we went into therapy figuring out how to make
the other person change instead of going in with the
focus on you. I think we kind of had the
(10:19):
wrong mindset and just the way I am was, Hey,
I made this commitment. We're in this together. Whether I
enjoy it or not, this is the commitment I made.
I'm going to see it through. And happiness is not
necessarily a part of the commitment. You know, Happiness comes
and goes. But with that said, it was yeah, well
(10:46):
it was a struggle for many, many years, but deep
down we always knew we had something amazing in there.
We just had to tap into it. Katherine, you're trumping, well,
I was thinking about us doing couples therapy and how
that didn't work for us us. I think a lot
of it for us, And I'm not like pointing fingers
or doing anything. It was I had the very obvious
(11:08):
childhood wounds. Um, I acknowledged those and when they were
coming out, so it was like, let's go to couples
therapy and fix Catherine. I felt that way and he
definitely felt that way. And it was one of those
we got into it, and again I wasn't in a
place to necessarily make changes. I was aware, but not
to make changes. And he was in a place of well,
my family was perfect and I'm perfect, and that was
(11:30):
just perfect were very you know, obvious. Mine were a
little bit deeper. Literally. The therapist would be like, so
nake about and he's like, my family's perfect. And I
was tell us about a childhood you do you have
you know, some stuff you you dealt with as a child,
(11:52):
And I was like, well, my parents were at every
game ever played. Dad told me loved me all the time.
So did mom. I was always hugged on, loved on. No,
pretty good, That's how that went. So I was like, yeah,
I've done. I feel like this is a copy paste
of my couple therapy. I'm like, so here's my open
giant winds and my husband's like, who's awesome? I basically
(12:12):
in the fifty sitcom and I'm like, cool, I'll head out.
I just thought we had to address that because I
think that like it's not but it's common. I mean
it has to feel at that point too, like how
to eat an elephant when bite at a time, right,
Like you sit down and you lay out what you
need to work through, and then you're like, okay, we
already have seven eight years under us, you know, or
(12:33):
whatever ten years at that point, and then you have
to go, how do we deconstruct to reconstruct? And let's
just do all of that in like one hour. And
then let's also go back to parenting kids, three kids
full time and working, both of you working full time,
like it takes a it's exhausting, and it's not easy
work in there, exhausting. In the eight years that you
(13:07):
guys were in that let's sweep or let's shove down,
push it down, push push, push, push, push, push push.
I want to ask both of you what was the
number one need that wasn't met? And I want you
to go a step deeper than just like we know
that you know, okay, maybe there wasn't as much sexual activity,
but I think it always goes like for me, like
when my X wasn't having sex with me, the I
(13:29):
was so upset, but it was the underneath or feeling
of yeah, I'm not loved or I'm not chosen. So
I'm curious what that was for you and what that
was for you For me? Um, you know, the intimate
intimacy aspect. Yes, sex is a part of it, but
that's again, that's one one little factor. It was the
(13:52):
it was the connectiveness, the the you know, wanting her
to show that she needed me. You know, I'm wired
like every other guy. I want to be a provider.
I want to I want to be needed. Um. You know,
she's a very independent woman, so, which is what attracted
me to her in the first place. But when you
(14:12):
start to get to a place where you're like, wow,
I could die tomorrow and she'd pick right up and
be fine. Yeah, that's that's a hard pick. Do you
honestly believe that I did at the time? Yeah, Katherine,
how does that make you feel? I mean I knew
he felt that way, and if I'm being completely honest,
I think part of me was like, yeah, I could,
(14:35):
you know, totally, like I've been built my whole life
trying to be independent, like this is me. You know,
it's a shame you and I don't have anything in common.
I know, I'm so over here like wow, well no,
I mean it's so truecause because I remember, like even
during those eight years you're like eyep, I was looking
at apartments and I'm like, it's like you you just
you've always been like you know business, I can handle
(14:56):
this and I can do this, and like it's a
beautiful quality. At the same time, that piece, I think
when you guys did separate, I'm like, I'm like, oh,
I don't want you to ever to be alone because
I'm like, I know maybe you say you're okay to
be alone, but I'm like, are you though forever? Like
you know, I'm like, I want you to find love
again and I want you to feel loved and because
you deserve that. So that piece, I was like, that
(15:16):
was my most like I was scared for you. On
that piece. I didn't want you just to like not
find love again and just like be like I can
do this by myself. Independence, I think is just such
a blessing and a curse. It truly is like I've
learned that for sure. For me. Oh, that's a hard one,
you know, me, it's hard to dig deeper. Let's dig deeper, Okay.
I think for me, my biggest wasn't necessarily what I
(15:41):
needed from him, because I couldn't pinpoint that I didn't
know what I needed from him. But I know my
issue was that I felt like a failure, Like I
just felt like, well, he's over here saying I need
X Y and Z needs I don't really know what
I need, and I'm just over here not being able
to accommodate those needs or not wanting to or not
(16:04):
feeling like I should be more like I grew up
with no physical touch and he wants physical touch, and
I'm like, I'm at a point where I don't even
know how to like, you know, like hold your hand,
you know, Like I didn't see that, and so I
just felt like a shut down failure. So it wasn't
necessarily that I'm over here like, well he's not giving
me x Y and Z. I used some of those
things as excuses, like I'd be like, well, you didn't
(16:28):
set up date night, or you didn't do this, or
you didn't do that, But truly it was just a
wall was up because I didn't know how to do
what I knew I needed to do well. And I'm
sure the more he pushed, the more you shut off. Yes,
well I was going to say that, like I became
someone that I wasn't. Yes, so over the years, like
I became needy. I attached me. Absolutely, Yeah, we were that. Yeah,
(16:50):
so you're you're we were the same human like it
made me cleany, made me like, you know, and then
she can pick up on the fact that you know,
I'm doing something for an agenda, like all right, we
got to go on a date night, so you know,
(17:10):
if I do this for her, then she'll do it.
Just became like a poker game. Um, and you can
both feel that, but you're not saying it right exactly,
You're just being that way. Yeah. Oh and then I
we did figure this out in therapy. Well, I finally
admitted it. I would create a fight, so like if
we were going to go on to date night, I
would sabotage it. I would like come up with something
(17:32):
and I would just create a fight. So then it
was like, okay, great, now we can go back to
our respective court alone. Yeah, you go to this room
right am over here. Ship that in work diary. So
then what was the what was the um the switch
for you, Catherine to go, Okay, I'm filing for divorce.
(17:56):
I started doing my own therapy, which was so much
more beneficial for me than a couple of therapy, not
knocking couples therapy, but my own journey. And my big
thing was I was living what I lived. My kids
were living what I lived as a child, and that
was killing me. Like they're not seeing affection, They're not
(18:17):
seeing us love each other, go on dates, you know,
do all these things. They're just seeing two independent people
do their own thing. We're getting along at this point,
we're not fighting really, but like this isn't what I
want for my kids. So that put me back into therapy,
and I was like, I'm a very decisive person. Usually
I hate living in the gray. I hate, you know,
and I was living there for so long. So finally
(18:38):
I was just like I have to make a decision,
like it is, something has to happen. And it was
kind of like there were two hards in front of me.
They both are a lot of work, and so I
just kind of made a decision and then I think
I was convinced it was the right decision for sure.
Let me add a little something to that though, like
(19:01):
you are, our situation was that's what made it feel
so weird when we were going through it. It's like
we still were the best of friends. There was just
something that was not connecting. Well, I think too, Like
every time we've had a conversation, she'd be like, he didn't.
He's not a cheater, he's not a nucle he didn't.
He doesn't drink, he's not He's an amazing dad. Like
(19:21):
she's like, it's like you were trying to find a
reason for the last eight years almost to be like, Okay,
that doesn't make it makes sense, to make it makes sense,
why the disconnect is there, or to leave right or
I wanted him to do it right because like you know,
my mom was the one that left my dad, and
I'm like, I don't want to be the mom that
makes the decision. That was the biggest piece for me.
(19:43):
It was like a standoff, who's going to budge first? Well,
and you I remember coming to the gym and you know,
we we were having a conversation and I'm like, but Nick,
that's not a way to live either, Like Nope, I'm
never going to divorce her. I'm like, so you're just
gonna be unhappy for the rest of your life. Well,
I'll not have your needs met, push it all down
and die first. That that was the plan. And I
was like, but that's not okay either. I'm like, I
love both of you, and y'all are fucking miserable, right,
(20:05):
Like it's okay that you didn't do this or she
didn't do that, Like you guys are just not happy together,
and like it's okay to walk away, Like you deserve happiness,
she deserves happiness. I think again, it's maybe that's a
difference in upbringing in that type situation, but it was
very much like, Okay, what's what's the hardest here? Me
(20:26):
me pushing it all down and just dealing with it internally,
or you know, my kids having two separate homes and
do like so and again there you kind of go
into far extremes in your head, like if we stay together,
it's going to be this way and we're going to
continue to go down this horrible path. If we break
(20:49):
it off, then you know, oh my god, my kids
aren't going to have a family. And it's it's so
you kind of go to extremes both ways. So the
easiest thing to do is nothing like status quo, right,
just keep it how it is, which isn't right by
any means, but well, the vulnerability it takes at that
point to lean into each other and get out of
(21:09):
your own way and out of each other's way and
just like lean in, it's just not even really an
option at that point. Like it's like it definitely didn't
feel like it was for sure. Yeah, so then what
was the thought for you, Catherine, to go, wait a minute,
maybe I'm making a mistake. You know. It's interesting because
(21:31):
when we weren't together, we got along so well. I mean,
it was like everybody around us, like, what the hell
are you doing? Ago? Can I just say that? Preston
and I were at home and he's like, this isn't
gonna last. And I was like their marriage and he's like, no,
them being a part. Maybe they're not supposed to be divorced,
and I was like, I feel it too, I'm confused.
(21:53):
We felt like your kids. All of us were like
explaining this stuff. You saying something Timmy, lets yeah, you
were like you, I don't know what it is, but
you guys had too much respect and too much love.
Like I was like, at the heart of this, you
have what it takes to be for forever. There's just
some icky surfacy stuff like we got to clean up
or something, but no one, no one goes through a divorce,
(22:14):
like y'all were going through a divorce, and I'm just like, like,
what do you want, baked, Yeah, take that, that's fine.
You need something. I'm like, we do the most mutual
admiration like moment, and I do think that exists in
divorces somewhere, but like eventually it kep. Yeah, I do,
but like for it to just be I was like,
all of a sudden, like I'm like, maybe I'll just
need different rooms or something, because it just feels like
(22:36):
a whole spaces all you're really wanting the dating. We
got different rooms, I got a whole new house for
a couple of months, but yeah, I moved out, you know,
the whole thing. And Kat was you know, you were
here here, here, she was outstairs where Yeah. Yeah, I
mean I think so we were getting along so well
(22:59):
and I think we truly figured out in that time
that like being best friends never left, you know. That
was always there. That was always the common thread. It
was just you know, the the being in a relationship
part of it. Um. But honestly, like it took it.
I hate to say it. It took us dating other
people for me to like really go whoa whoa way
(23:21):
to men, Nat get out there and you show them
that's your man girl. Yeah. But I very specifically remember
Kristen of here talking about one of your episodes turning
Cat into the wild in the right direction. I remember
(23:46):
getting a text from Nick going, well, now listen to
your podcast anymore, and I'm like, I'm so sorry. We're
just trying to make her like, you know, like happy,
Like you need to go be wild too if you want.
Like it was hard playing the like friends to both yah,
you know what I mean, because I'm like, I want
you to be happy, but I want you to be
happy and then you know, and then sometimes dating helps
you get back out there and feel like, oh, I'm
not going to be alone forever or like I'm good.
(24:07):
I think yeah, I think we can all agree that
Kat was never gonna be Cat in the wild wild,
you know, me getting away and every I spent a
lot of times fishing like those three or four months.
It was just I needed. Ninety percent of the time
I was alone, just processing, Okay, what's the future look like,
(24:29):
what's you know, what's going to happen moving forward? Um?
But what that said, it was such a weird feeling
because in my gut I knew it wasn't over. So
(24:55):
then that's interesting because I remember when we were sitting
up back and I said, what if she asked for
you back? And you're like, now I'm done? When when
once I get past a point, I'm done. Well, I
remember very specifically what I said to you. You were like,
you know, what if she comes about? And I said,
unless there is an act of God and a fundamental
change in our relationship, I can't go back through that again.
(25:15):
And nothing shy of an act of God and fundamental change,
I mean, and pursing you date other people potentially because
she realized And sometimes that's what it takes to see
like oh wait a minute, no, that A that's my man,
and B like you don't know what you have until
(25:35):
you like that's saying. There's a saying for a reason.
My favor saying now is um, sometimes people don't know
what you bring to the table. Till they see you
doing your thing at another table. But yeah, you know
what that said. I always knew at some point, you know, Yes,
I'm a relationship guy, So I was obviously going to
(25:58):
be looking for the things that I felt that I
didn't have. And I always knew at some point, you know,
I was going to meet somebody that wanted something more
than I was able to give. You some point, someone's
gonna want me to love them fully, and I knew
that I would never be able to do that because
(26:19):
I was still in love with Catherine. So that was
my biggest fear going You know, this relationship didn't work,
but the next one is not going to work either,
because I can't give them what they're gonna want because
he was putting me first. And that the other one
I sense a little it's a little little nat geo.
(26:44):
It's a little out in the wild Mike instinct. She
did get cat wild. She did. We just didn't see
that coming. So you were so to walk us through
that piece. Then, like, what was the conversation you had
with Nick to kind of get him back or say hey, whoopsies. Yeah,
So it started with no, no, It started with like
(27:05):
a very vulnerable conversation, not yet realizing that I fully
wanted him back. But it started with a very vulnerable
like I need to tell you that you were a
good dad, Like you did everything you could as a husband,
Like I needed to have that conversation with him. And yes,
it also evolved around someone else who was evolved, and
you know, it was a conversation but like you're my
(27:27):
best friend, and like we're co parenting, and like this
person doesn't get to come in between. You know, there
was a lot of that, and it was the most
vulnerable I'd been in a long time. That was the
first conversation. But I think we still thought he was
moving down that path and we were staying, you know, divorced.
And then I kind of had to evaluate my feelings
(27:49):
around it. I'm like, why am I so bothered by this?
Why do I feel like is it just because I'm jealous?
Is it just like And I really had to evaluate
my feelings on it, and then honestly, it was for me,
it was just such an act of God. It was
like in church something he said. I was just like,
do you remember he said, it was the day you
remember calling crying? Right, we are picking up The crazy
(28:12):
thing is she sent me the clip of that sermon.
I was like, yeah, I didn't pick up on anything,
but it was something that rocks well because you saw
it. It It was something about like, and people may not
agree with this, but like Christians don't just we don't
just throw away marriages, basically not saying like if there's
reasons and stuff like that, but we truly, to me,
(28:34):
never really had that like blow up a reason or whatever.
And it was something along that. It was something along
the lines of not just throwing away a marriage. And
my kids were there and I was just like, oh,
it was awful, and he was like, oh, yeah, the
kids will be fine, blah blah blah. I'm like, no, no no, no,
I need to come over. We need to talk, you know,
and it just kind of switched for me, and it
was just kind of like this moment, and so I
just went over there and like started talking, and he was,
(28:57):
you know, at first, hesitant, you know, as as he
should be, you know, and I didn't want to hurt
him further. So it was very much just a conversation
of like, I'm having these thoughts. I don't feel like
we did everything that we could have, but I don't
want to hurt you. I don't want you to have
to go through this again. So what do you think?
(29:18):
You know? And I just kind of sat there and
he was quiet. Well, I tell, I told, I've said
this depression too. I'm like, I think anytime you rebuild anything,
half of it fifty This is I want to remind
everyone I have a PhD in so but like for me,
fifty percent of it is a decided heart and the
other fifty is figuring out why you do what you do.
And I just feel like you had the fifty percent
(29:40):
trying to figure out why you do what you do.
But like once there's a decided heart, especially with a
brain like yours, Yeah, it's I mean it's on the
power point at that point. And you're done. So now
that you guys are reconciled and back together, you Okay,
Catherine did not get divorced. My kids, we or Ramsey
still thinks we did. But it's okay, we've got to
(30:04):
get there. You were about to right like it was
going to be on Monday. Yeah, yeah, the next day,
so you're not. So. Catherine is not divorced. They just
had a little bit of a separation we're going to
we're not. Now, what are you most aware of moving
forward so that you don't fall back? Well, this is
hard because I feel like the honeymoon stage is kind
(30:27):
of over right, um sneaking around, Yeah, good time. But
even at home there was still a honeymoon stage. I
feel like for a while now life is busy as
crap again. We're every which way and we're and it's
easy to fall back in. I mean, I think some
(30:48):
habits are starting to creep back in a little bit,
Like which ones like that are that we're glad to. Yeah,
when I first moved back in, like we were spending
every single night together watching TV together. They're like, but
the way we're both wired is we need us time.
You know, we're I've got clients pulling at me, She's
got you, you guys are Actually she's a client of
(31:15):
both here. So I think at this point it's just
being intentional with it and you know, kind of checking in,
like like she'll come in and be like, hey, I'm
gonna I'm gonna watch my show tonight. You good, We're good.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. So I think
the intentionality and being aware of those things that, you know,
(31:36):
don't let it become habitual as much as it wasn't
the past. Right, Yeah, I agree with that, and I
think we're very aware of it and we are just talking.
You know, before we never talked, so now we're talking
about it a lot. And there are definitely been certain
triggers that have come up for both of us. Oh yeah,
absolutely that we've had to talk through. You know, like
(31:57):
I got upset about something and then he autumn radically
goes so I can't go back to that place, you know,
and I'm like, it's fine, Like it's not that, you know.
So there's little triggers that will come up every now
and then that we just kind of have to talk through.
But so do you kind of get scared that she's
going to be like I can't do this anymore, I
want to divorce again or something. Do I get scared? No, Like,
I don't think it'll ever go to that again. The
(32:18):
anxiousness died a little bit. It died a little bit
because well, it's like my brain's telling you know, I'm
a very emotional person. So yes, I do get that
anxiety when I feel something building up, But in my head,
I'm also like, Okay, this isn't this isn't real, Like
you got to back it down a little bit. Yeah,
but yeah, I mean there was trauma in what happened.
(32:40):
So anytime there's, you know, any sort of conflict, I'm
going to have to over the years learn how to
back myself off that ledge knowing you know that that's
not where we're going here, So chill out a little bit, right,
But she's meeting you in a different place too, very
much like the vulnerability piece. Yes, even I've even noticed
(33:01):
with you in friendship, just the openness and the vulnerability
I really imagine, Well, it is, it's huge, and it
matters because you're such a special human being that it's
like to guard yourself as no one, Like it doesn't
do any of us any good, Like we need to
know all of you trust you, But it's true. So
(33:22):
like I feel like, because I'm an anxious attached, jan
is an anxious attached, I'm a graduated anxious attack. I'm
saying we could default. We could, that's where we default. Yeah,
I don't feel like I'm anxious. I might be in
severely independent anxious attached, but you're so independent at the
same time, well that's what I well, the other wing
(33:43):
is avoiding. Yeah, you just I'm avoiding yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay,
But like I know that when oh bless the same. Um.
I just feel like in the anxious attachment, if I
can become more vulnerable, there's just all sorts of walls
that go down when you say what you want, what
you need, what you feel. So I feel like it
(34:05):
probably lessens that anxious attachment because you have a little
security knowing like she's going to lean into you a
little bit too, you don't have to be so scared. Well,
I'll say the number one thing that opened my eyes
more than anything, Like I've always been a believer, but
there was always this hostility between me and God that
(34:27):
this is the one thing I want God, why won't
you let this happen? Like all I want is a
close relationship with my wife, and it's just getting further
and further apart. So when she did come back and
things change so abruptly, it was the most eye opening
(34:48):
experience in my spiritual walk that I've ever experienced. So
just knowing that, you know, I always knew God could intervene,
but I was always pissed off. Why wouldn't he, And
when it did happen, it blew my mind to a
point where I'm like, Okay, well now I truly believe
anything and everything is possible. Yeah. Well, I think that's
(35:09):
where the piece where, Like there was there was other
reasons that I um to this story, but I think
for people that are divorced, when I heard, I was like, well,
why didn't got an intervene in my marriage? Sure? You know,
and like that, like like how does he get to
pick which one? Yeah? He picks, you know, And so
then you question that too, like it's like from questioning
(35:30):
to questioning, and then it just like you're trying to
make sense of it. You know. That's the one thing
I learned in all this. You can't make sense of it. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean I think I think he just knows better
than us, and I think he knows who ends up
better on the other end and who does it? You know? Yeah,
oh for sure of it. But yeah, that's such a
good point. Yeah, I'll never forget. I had an absolute
(35:52):
I can't believe I'm saying this, but had an absolute
emotional melt down the night she came over and we
had that conversation like, I sobbed like I've never experienced
in my entire life, to the point like three days
later my stomach still hurt, and it was a whole
mixed bag of yes, relief, but more just the awe
(36:17):
of what God can do. Like that's the first time
I'd ever really experienced what I felt was answered prayers
answered prayers. Yeah, yeah, Wow. What would you say to
the people that are kind of struggling have struggled. It's
very similar to your marriage. What would be one piece
(36:38):
that they can kind of walk away with that you
think that they could take from this to keep ongoing
and keep maybe to go to go down this road
that you guys are on. Go first. But that's hard
for me. I think the number one thing for me obviously,
and everyone's different, but is the vulnerability piece. Just be
(37:00):
vulnerable and see where it leads you. Yeah, and just
be vulnerable, see where it leads you. It's beautiful. That's
really I think intentionality in yourself, you know, seriously, do
the work on you, because when you're struggling, it's not
because the other person is because of both of you,
(37:21):
you know, so you need to focus on you in
making the changes that will be beneficial to you as
a full couple. But on the other side of that,
you have to make acknowledgements when your partners trying to
do those things as well, because you have to have
those little victories throughout otherwise you'll just give up. Yeah,
(37:44):
that's true. Well, I mean I love you obviously both
love you guys so much. So this is I mean,
I love this story, love you. I just want to
say I called it. And just like we always say,
like marriage is hard, it's the grass is not always greener.
On the other side, everyone's going to have something. And
(38:04):
keep on working on yourself, keep on being honest, telling
the truth, and um you know yeah, like keep looking
in the mirror. And that's a wrap.
Host
Jana Kramer
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