August 4, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode, Ashlyn sits down with Krista Tippett — journalist, author, and host of On Being — for a thoughtful conversation about what it means to explore spirituality with openness and humility, and how meaningful conversations can help us make sense of the world. Together they unpack how hosting is an act of hospitality and dialogue is a form of adventure — a way of searching for knowledge together, one question at a time.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome back, everybody to another week of Wide Open with
Ashland Harris our guest today. Oh, I'm so, so so excited,
the one and only Krista Tippett. I could introduce you
as a million different things, but you're really the group
guru of what.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm doing right now.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm learning so much through the lens of your work.
You're a master at conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Your ability to show up and.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Be so insightful and so thoughtful and so just sitting
at the intersection of the human condition has been really
beautiful to witness and to see.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
From afar and to be able to sit now and
meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
That's so lovely to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you, welcome so much you.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
You now are podcasting on being, which everyone clearly already knows.
You have interviewed some of the most incredible people to
ever walk this planet, so I can't wait to unpack
that and how that inspires you, how that makes you
(01:21):
move internally to grow and be better every single day
based on the teachings of so many incredible people. And
you're a New York Times bestseller. I mean, you really
have done it all, and it's such an honor to
have you on this show, so thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I yeah, I'm happy to be here. As we were
just talking about how a conversation is an adventure and
I've loved Yeah, I've loved doing my show all these years,
and you're new in this sphere, and I, yeah, I
think what I've I also, now this point, really loved
(02:00):
me on both sides of the conversation. I just trust
it as a human experience.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I was just going to ask you that, how does
it feel now being on this side people saying, hey, you.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Know what we want you on our show. I want
to ask you the question.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Well, you know, actually, I think your job is harder, right,
In some ways it's relaxing because I think when you're
you know, when you're when you're hosting, which really is
an act of hospitality. You know, you're the one who
had to prepare, you're the one who has notes. I
just get to sit back and be surprised by what
comes to me and then just kind of see what surfaces.
(02:34):
And I do feel at this point like and maybe
you'll feel this way too at some point, I feel
like I've never been doing this for over twenty years,
but I feel like all the conversations that I've had
are kind of in conversation with each other inside my head.
So when I get asked a question, it's kind of like,
you know, a lot surfaces that is me, that is
(02:55):
wisdom I have from others, and that's kind of interesting
for me almost to observe. Yeah, I think you.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Have an incredible gift. I think you have an incredible
gift to see people and meet them where they're at.
I think not all people understand that. And the ability
to listen with no judgment is very powerful and very
(03:22):
rare these days, and I think more than ever we
need that, and I think it's so powerful and beautiful
we're able to do that through our work. And I
have to say that in a time that feels so
divided and so fragmented, and so difficult and so siloed,
it's so beautiful that you chose to come in here
(03:44):
and to have a conversation like this. As someone who
looks up to you, and I hope one day to
be in your shoes. I'm grateful to share oxygen with you.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, And I want to.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Start weirdly kind of where you start the beginning, you know,
the beginning of being raised in Oklahoma and.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Centered around.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Faith and religion and how that shaped you into making
a lot of life decisions. And I'm curious who you
were as a little girl and how you showed up
in the spaces you did and what made you curious,
what made you excited about life?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Such a great way to ask the question, you know,
one of I'm in my sixties now I love I
want to say, I love aging like I love this decade.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Say that again you need more women than.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
No, I mean life against the sixties. Oh, don't tell
me that though. Just again, No, it's good. It just
goes there so madly in love. I'm just so happy,
having so much fun. So and I say that because
one of the interesting things for me about I don't
want to say, just living in my body alone, living
(05:02):
in the world a long time, which is another way
to say aging, is that I have gotten to know
that little girl me and I've had to I've kind
of learned to love her. And you know, I was
very hard on myself most of my life, which I
(05:23):
think we kind of get trained to be in this culture,
really judgmental. And I realized at some point in recent
years that I mean you know, my little girl self
was in a very imperfect world, as we all are,
but really dealing with a lot. I was living in
a place, in a family where there wasn't a lot
(05:46):
of curiosity, and where the most important things that were
going on that of course I knew about, because children
know all the things the adults are trying to hide
from them, we were not talking about. And so I think,
you know, sometimes people say to me, oh, you must
have grown up in a family of great listeners, But
you know, we get shaped in a few different ways.
And you can get things because people taught them to
(06:08):
you or modeled them for you can also get them
because you longed for them because they were not there.
And so I when I look back at my young self, yeah,
I think she was. She just had was really asking
a lot of big questions, and the questions the adults
around her were not interested in. The only real books
(06:29):
we read in my house were the Bible. I mean,
the Bible was there, but there's a lot in the Bible.
There's a lot in the Bible that nobody was talking
about also, and so I just think I found, you know,
I found a lot of fuel for my imagination in
what was given to me. I didn't. I think a
lot also now about how living growing up in a
(06:51):
small town. You know, at that time, before the Internet,
you just didn't have a sense of the world out there.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I didn't have a family that travel There hadn't really
been any place for Texas, and I didn't really think
that was the bound those are the boundaries of the
known world. So I was really seventeen eighteen before I
started thinking about leaving. But when I when I left,
I mean I was really leaping into a void. I'd
(07:19):
seen Woody Allen's movie in Manhattan, you know, that's like
that was the image I had of this city I
now live in. Wow. So yeah, I think I had
a lot of I think she was brave my younger self,
and I'm only in and later life giving her credit
for that. I don't know how weird that sounds, because
(07:40):
I didn't used to talk this way. That's about my
younger self, and you should. It's a new thing, because like.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I am on the other side of the spectrum where
I was that little girl who said I was going
to be that professional athlete. I was going to be
under those lights, and I dreamed about it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I am imagined it.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I mean, you want a Peabody, you have the Humanitarian
Award from President Obama.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Did you ever think.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You were capable of such greatness as a young little girl?
Did you think and dream about those moments? No?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I didn't, I really didn't. I didn't. I didn't have
a sense of what was possible. But I was pretty
fearless once I started going. I mean, the truth is,
and I think this is also true for a lot
of people. I still think I'm this kid from Oklahoma,
you know. I mean, those credentials somehow belonged to me,
(08:42):
and somehow I marvel at them too, and don't know
how to claim them.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
It's so beautiful to I'm sure sit in the comfort
of your own skin right now.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Because your journey was not linear, like it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
You came from, you know, a very religious background, while
when you were being you know, raised as a young girl,
and you just you you went after this journalism route
and diplomacy and decide, you know, you want.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
To go to.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
The cold world or in Berlin, and then all of
a sudden you're like, oh wait, but theology and I
want to go to all these incredible universities like walk
me through it.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah, so there was an element for me of of
having a father I needed to impress. And you know,
one of the wisest people I've known in my life
who recently passed, he was ninety five. He would talk
about the things that have happened to us as they're
(09:57):
the negative negatives and the positive negati. Now you have
to kind of have solid ground beneath your feet to
say that thing that was so hard and hurtful actually
shaped me in quite a beautiful way, right only because
also at some point I knew to get distance from
(10:18):
it and as you say, become at home and myself
and distinguish between what I did because I was trying
to fulfill somebody else's bottomless you know, need, or doing
things because they gave me life. So yeah, I think
a lot of the things I did in my twenties
(10:41):
in a way I was trying to prove something, but
not to the world. And it wasn't really about what
I thought I could accomplish so much as justifying my existence.
But I walked into so many you know, incredible walk
through so many incredible doors, and learned so much that
has me ever since Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, that's really really special. And you talk so much
about purpose. How did you find your meaning and choosing
to do this type of work because you're really serving
the masses. So I'm curious what you felt in that time,
(11:25):
because you know, your purpose changes through the different seasons
of your life and your growth and where you're at.
And did you think of that at a time when
you were deciding what you wanted to do, you know,
because so much of your work on being is really
this beautiful intersection of the human condition, spirituality, ethics, Like,
(11:51):
did you feel that that at the time was like this,
this really big purpose for you to fulfill, to connect people, so.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
In a in a not in a linear way, but
in a roundabout way. Over a few years, the experience
I had in Berlin, you know, led very jagged line
to doing that I really had, I really believed, and
I think this made me a good citizen of the
(12:24):
late twentieth century, mid twentieth century. That politics was where
it was at. Yah, right, this is where the power is,
This is where the big hard questions are being asked,
This is where the solutions are being worked out. And
also like this is this is where if you can engage,
you will be helping save the world, right, And I think,
(12:44):
you know, in some ways, you know, weird circumstances led
me to have this opportunity to go to divided Germany.
But all of what I just said was playing itself
out on this very you know, technicolor screen. It was
a fault line of the world. But in Berlin. So
(13:05):
in Berlin I got up close to real political power.
My last couple of years there, I was the chief
age of our ambassador to West Germany, who was a
nuclear arms expert, and those nuclear missiles which were all
over Europe really were the existential threat of the time.
(13:26):
And it's hard to think your way into this now,
but we all lived knowing in some part of our
brains that you know, they could go off one morning. Yeah.
But I was also having the experience in Berlin, which
was divided into two and you had communism on one
(13:49):
side and capitalism on the other, and people who were
free on one side, and people were not free on
the other, and people who had just basic choice about
you know, not just what you had study in college
or where you would live, but what color you would
paint your room. And I saw how soul stealing, like
how much we need choice. It was more that the
(14:11):
possibility of possibility that was taken away from people, that
very thing that I somehow knew to sees. And I
got fascinated in Berlin because that division was you know,
was really was really along the lines of the geopolitical
division of the world. But I got fascinated by this
(14:33):
human superpower of crafting a life. And I saw that
on the Western side, where we you know, quote unquote
had everything and were so free and had so much choice,
it was possible to have a very superficial empty life.
(14:53):
And I saw on the Eastern side, where people had
raw materials to work with that were you know, sparse,
they still could create this incredible intimacy and dignity and beauty.
And I got fascinated with that. And I got discouraged
and kind of very existentially confused that the guys, and
(15:17):
it mostly was guys who were moving the missiles around,
we're not just we're not just not addressing that how
we make a life. They were totally disinterested in it.
And so, you know, and again in this jagged line,
it led me to go to seminary to think about
(15:37):
theology has a place where we not only think about God,
but about what it means to be human. I think
when I started the show, which was really about ten
years later, I was sorry to fgar out what to
do with all of that. But one of my motivations
(15:57):
was that you shouldn't have to go away for three
years as I did, and go into a lot of
debt as I did, to get exposed to this really
thrilling investigation and to get exposed to theology and to
be pondering the big questions. And you shouldn't have to
(16:21):
have a certain kind of education or even a certain
kind of religious education. And I just and I also
really felt like there were so many things. I'm just
saying this for the first time in this way, but
just as in my family, there's so many big things
that we should be talking about and we should we
(16:41):
should be finding words for even though even though words
are you really have to reach for words around a
lot of this. And so, you know, then this little
you know hour on public radio week which is what
it was at first, was my offering.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And I ask you this because because you live such
a purposeful life and you ask such beautiful, intentional questions
do you think purpose is found or do you think
it's created?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
I think it's both. But you know that's just there's
such a there's a whole lineage of that question. Right,
it's light, a particle, or a wave. It depends on
what question you ask. Yeah, I you know, I like
something you said a minute ago about I don't think
you use the word vocation, but you're saying we all
(17:37):
across our lifespan like there are different ways that we're
finding purpose, right, So, I think the one thing that
was wrong with this twentieth century that we came out
of is that it really collapsed the idea of purpose
and vocation like vocation which isn't which is really the
word we've used in America for what your purpose is,
(17:58):
and it's really about what you do for a living. Yes,
it's how you succeed. It's what you get paid for,
and that is really impoverishing. And you know you have
small children. I mean at a time in your life
you also have there are other things about you. But
I think like we all go through stages where you know,
when you are a parent of young children, that is
(18:19):
your primary vocation and everything else has to orbit around that.
I and I also I just think we what we're
called to because vocation, that word vocation comes from the
from the word you know for calling to call forth,
and that's important language to me. Now in this world
(18:40):
we live in, I think we're called that's that's a
question we need to be asking, and it's a it's
a way to turn the question of what do I
how can I possibly stand before all this crisis and rupture?
What are we being called to do? So I guess
this is a long winded way to say, I think
(19:03):
we all there's there's we all have so much agency
and so much possibility, and there's so many ways. Also
we know that that gets stolen from people. And yet
a very miraculous thing about the thing about human beings
is that we often you know, are made by what
would break us. And so I think purpose is always
(19:27):
a possibility and it can take so many forms. I
guess something that to me is a mystery that I
will not know the answer to in this lifetime is
you know, are there? I wonder how much positive, how
much what the range of possibility is? You know there
are other there? At least this point in my life,
when I've lived over six decades. You know, I wonder
(19:49):
if I had walked down that road, maybe that would
have been just as purposeful a life, but it would
have been very different, you know. Or is there something
you know? Do we are there are their best ways
forward and we find them, or we we orient towards
them or not. I don't know, but I'm fascinated. Any
(20:13):
Dillert the writer said something that has always stuck with me.
That she said, we are made and set here something
like to be astonished. And I feel like we all
get astonished at different things, yes, right, and so and
that is a that is a joyful purposefulness when we
follow our astonishment. Yeah, and so I think that can
(20:37):
go in so many directions, and some of them that
will in fact be our purpose. We will not get
paid for, right, but they will make life worth living. Yes,
and so I think that's the trap. And I get nervous,
and I think in this world that we're heading into
even more so about you know that everybody needs to
find meaningful work, which means that the work itself is
(21:01):
what's going to give your life meaning For some of
some of us are really fortunate to have work that
in and of itself, it's very nature gives us meaning,
but that's a trap. Yeah, if you know, putting working
to earn money to put food on table for your children,
that's purposeful too. So I'm kind of it's so true.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I had I really invest in growth. And it's interesting
because a lot of your work in terms of becoming
versus being is a really interesting intersection for me. And
(21:42):
I'm in a new season of my life as I've
newly retired from professional sports, two very young kids, and recently,
you know, went through a hard divorce and finding new
meaning and joy in my life. And I'm going through
through a lot of coaching and a lot of therapy
(22:03):
and a lot of growing. And it's such a beautiful
season to be in. And I don't look at it
as a scary thing. I think life is moving so
fast and we have to continue to evolve. And I
constantly want to hold myself accountable in terms of self
awareness of how I show up and how I serve.
(22:26):
And I had a coaching session yesterday and my coach
asked me what anchors me? Because so often we float away,
and if we get too close to the sun, we
start to burn, or if we get too far away
from the buoy. We don't have anything in sight that
grounds us, and the tide is always rising, right, it's
(22:47):
always changing. And it was really interesting that my anchor
is really what grounds me the most when I'm at
my most happiness, happiest d eight is when I'm with
my partner and I'm with my children. Those are my anchors.
Home to me is not a place. It is the
people in which I find most at ease and peace with,
(23:14):
and it is them.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
They are my why. But for me to do all
the other things, I have to provide.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So it's this really interesting complex of finding purpose and
meaning outside of my anchors. But also that's okay. I
do find that my work is very meaningful. Human connection
to me is very meaningful. But you're right, not all
the time.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Does it pay the bills?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yeah, I'm thinking as you're talking about, you know, the roomy,
the mystic Muslim mystic and poet, he created the whirling
dervishes And the point of that was, you know, spiritual
practice that helps us stay still inside while whirling. And
(24:03):
I was just thinking about that this week because I
think that is actually one of the things we are
all called to right now in this moment of time
where the world is one big field and it is
so what you're talking about, yeah, is getting grounded ground
that's still point and there may be a lot you
maybe have a lot of plates up in the air
around that, right, But that and yeah, and you know,
(24:25):
maybe that's a good way to think about what does
it mean to find purpose in life? It's not necessarily
that this thing or that thing is giving you purpose.
But are you staying still while whirling and able to
take joy?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I'm curious of what your relationship is now in this
season of life. What is your relationship to religion?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
To religion? Well, it's complicated. I feel that there have
been so many chapters.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
That's why I say in this chapter because I absolutely
do have different chapters.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I there's such a false and misleading you know, cultural
fight that isn't really representative of science or religion. That
you know that religion is somehow opposed to evolution. But
I like to think faith is the most evolutionary thing
of all. Right, Like if you are breathing, even if
(25:48):
your whole life long, you know, you could say from
year one to year ninety. I believe in God. If
you are having a life, what that sentence means, what
it's filled with is going to be so radically dynamic.
And so I don't know in terms of that one sentence,
(26:08):
you know, I just think for me, the word God
is just so small. I grew up with a religiosity
that had so much fear in it, like the world
was such a dangerous place. The body was an entry
point to danger. Everything was a slippery slope to sex.
(26:30):
And one of the things I realize, you know, looking back,
is how little, how little a sense of mystery and
a reverence for mystery there was, you know, because if
it's all fear and it's all rules, and it wasn't
all it wasn't only that. My grandfather especially was you know,
(26:51):
the most He preached hell, fire and brimstone, and he
was the most loving, funny person I knew. And I
actually think that that experience of that complex city was
really a great thing to take in. So yeah, I
think now for me, as I've grown older and through
(27:12):
my conversations and a lot through my conversations with physicists,
right with scientists who you know, paradoxically have a great
not just a comfort with mystery, but a delight in it.
They're always looking for, you know, living. One time early
on this interview really imprinted me. I was really early
(27:34):
with this geneticist who was also an Anglican priest, and
he said to me that the spirituality of the scientist
is like the spirituality of a mystic. That they are,
that the mystic and the scientists are both. They both
(27:57):
accept and are thrilled by the knowledge that there are
things we will never understand in this lifetime. And they're
always moving into that mystery deeper and deeper, and they
don't expect to tie it up, because then the fun
would be gone. And yet they are all looking for
They're both looking for truth. And I do think, you know,
we're you know, we're we are called all of us
(28:18):
to kind of discern truth as best we can, but
then also to keep living and letting our questions come
into those answers we have. And so I think for
me now it's you know, I was raised Southern Baptist.
I spent about ten years not religious at all. I
got it. I became Episcopalian. I think that got me
(28:38):
in touch with the church. Across time and space, and
religion across time and space. Like the church I grew
up in, everything was private and personal, and you know,
you're praying in your head all alone, which is such
an American thing. Yeah, And to have this experience that
is the experience of so many people, and you know,
(29:00):
certainly in a tradition like Judaism or Islam, where you
are saying words the same words that other people have
said before you for thousands of years. You know, I
learned to really, you know, have a reverence for that,
to find that a sacred thing. And I think that
also helped me be empathic about the deep religiosity of
(29:24):
religious others and really, you know, find find that very beautiful.
At this point, it's very open for me. It's very expansive,
and it's it is it's so personal. I think as
something I've come to think about for a long time,
(29:48):
I would I had kind of ambivalence about Christianity. I've
come to understand it is my mother tongue, like it
is my spiritual homeland and not to take not to
take up lightly. So for a long time I meditated,
and I've interviewed so many of the great Buddhist teachers,
and I'm very formed by that tradition and it's spiritual
(30:10):
technologies and it's wisdom. But at some point I realized, like,
I also need to be praying, because that's what I
learned how to do. And I do think there are
forms of religious practice and spiritual practice. I do think
it's very much like we find what is suited to us.
(30:30):
I mean, it's almost a little bit like the sport
we do, or like yoga. I mean, I think there's
so many different right, and you know, you have to
find the one, the postures and the pace, the kind
of challenge or restoration or whatever it is that you need.
And I kind of think that spiritual ritual is like
(30:51):
that too.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And I do think, you know, as you talk about that,
I can't help but to think travel is our greatest teacher.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, it really is, like.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
You know, coming from such a small town, and I too,
grew up on a military base. Both of my grandparents
were very successful in the Air Force, and we lived
right by Kennedy Space Center, and I was very much
so a NASA baby, and it just my parents didn't
(31:27):
enjoy the travel and the constant change of schools and
the different cultures.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I mean my father was.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Like Mobile Alabama to Birmingham to Arkansas to Hawaii, and
my mom was Germany and Spain and all these places
and they wanted nothing to do with it. And I
became a very good soccer player, and I did feel
like I was able to see.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
The world.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Through the len of what this.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
There was culture outside of the Western culture, and I
truthfully it's why I love soccer so much. It's everyone
shows up and you don't even speak the same language,
but the joy and love for the game and the
atmosphere of being connected to people.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
That's the beauty of sport.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It's not the game, it's the connection.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
And I think soccer has that, oh yeah, to a special.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Universal the language.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
It's just the connection piece is so is so important.
And not to get a little off topic, but when
you were just talking, you know, it's really important to
me because you talk about this often, about a big
defining moment and your life was really realizing your family
was terrible listeners.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, and you know, I don't want.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
To directly quote you, but you you really do talk
about listening is such an act of love. How did
you become such a great listener, How did you create
a space where people feel so comfortable to tell you
things they might otherwise not feel safe sharing.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
You know? Probably part of it, like you, is that
I just find the world and human beings so fascinating
and so bizarre and surprising. And the closer you look,
the harder you look, the more surprising it is and
the more as unexpected. I also I also am am
(33:39):
you know, ampathic. I don't know if people talked that
way when I was growing up. I mean, I think
we now know that that is a thing. Did you
happen to watch Star Trek the Next Generation? I did
not know. But do you know about the ship's counselor
well she is it was an empathy. She's half Baitazoid,
(34:00):
which is a race of empaths. And so once I
saw that, I realized that, I mean, I joke about
this with people or half batizoid after all. But I think,
you know, any kind of gift like this is something
that you can lose if you don't engage it. But
and let me just yeah, I think also growing up
(34:21):
with my father in particular, who was just really broken
and really deep down sad and troubled and wouldn't I
think that I spent a lot of my childhood. I
think this is true of other you know children, sometimes
of you know, trying to into it what he couldn't say,
(34:45):
and probably developing that that muscle, you know, feeling things
other people are feeling, and then being able to honor
that and lean into that and turn it into a conversation,
you know. I think listening listening. Like I learned growing
(35:12):
up that listening was being quiet while the other person
said what they had to say, so then it would
be my turn. And I really think that listening. I
think that the being quiet part is a byproduct. I
think listening is really is. Of course, of course I've
(35:36):
learned to be a better listener. I mean, anything we do,
anything we do repetitively, we get better at. But it's
it's really about following. It's about it's about treating the
muscle of curiosity, and it's about being present with your
(35:57):
curiosity to the other person. And for me, that is
second nature, and I've flexed those muscles for a long time.
I think they are basic social arts, they are basic
human capacities. However, they kind of get educated out of
(36:20):
us in this world we're really trained to be advocates
and to have strong opinions, and to be good in
arguments and to be presentational, and those things have their place,
but we're not all. They kind of work against showing
(36:42):
up with another person and truly being curious, which means,
I don't you know. I may know something about you, right,
I may know something about your identity, or I may
be looking at you and and you know, making observations.
I may know who you voted for. Right. I may
(37:04):
know something about you, know some identity you have, some
skill you have, but I know that that one thing
that there's so much more to you, and I want
you to surprise me. And in this culture, I think
we have these ideas. You know, we latch onto the
(37:25):
one thing we know, and we have an opinion about that,
and we don't imagine how complicated and fascinating and how
much that other person will probably defy a lot of
what we would expect and unless we really move towards them.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's it's so interesting that you say that, especially right
now with the political landscape and climate. I haven't lived
a lot of decades, but this is the first one
of my lifetime where I feel.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Like it's really scary.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, it's the first time I do feel scared to
raise two black You know, my children are black and brown,
and I'm a queer woman in this country.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I'm scared.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, And I show up in the spaces I can
and always choose love. It's the greatest asset and gift
I can give to the universe, and it's completely free.
And I'm curious for someone who has spent a lifetime
technically in politics and journalism, what do you think about
(38:36):
the current landscape of what's going on in journalism and
media and politics and religion, Like there's just so much
divide I'm curious of how you pour more into your
work because of it.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
First of all, I think everything that's happening now, we
have been walking into it for a long time in
all kinds of ways and not wanting to deal with
the things we would have needed to deal with. But
when I analyze this world through the human condition, I
(39:18):
think fear is running the show to such an extent
that all the things we want to take seriously and
that actually we wanted to think we'll protect us and
keep order in place, like politics and the economy, these
are just symptoms. If you know, living out of a
(39:39):
fear place means in our because we and also in
these thirty forty years, we've learned so much about what
fear does in a human body. It just collapses your
ability to think clearly, to think deeply, you know, it
kind of collapses our range of our sense of our agency.
Tore three things, fight, deny, or bury your head in
(40:02):
the sand. And that is a pretty good way to
analyze what we're doing. Yes, you know what's happening, and
all you know, we have these reckonings. We do have
these big reckonings, callings in this century, in this generation
of our species. You know that are I mean are
(40:24):
ecological I think most existentially, but also racial, so you know, social,
like we're redefining marriage and family and gender. What a
huge thing to be the general Like, if that were
the only thing that we're happening right now, that we
would this would still be really big and we'd be
tending to it better. But and then I think, and
(40:45):
I don't. We don't because we have this tendency, We
have this drive which I know also probably keeps us
sane to normalize, normalized, normalize. We came out of these
three years of global pandemic in which our everybody's nervous
system was on stuck on high for years. We were
(41:06):
also deprived of the very thing that helps us calm down,
which is proximity to other human beings. And so when
I look at the world right now, I see a distressed,
disregulated nervous system at a species level, you know, not
just in our individual bodies, but in our collective body.
(41:28):
That doesn't make anything simpler, That's so true. But I wonder,
you know, my question is, and I think this is
what I'm going to spend the next however many years
left I have left to be you know, really engaged, Like,
let's also work directly on that. If it's the human
heart and human bodies and human well being that all
(41:49):
of this fracture. And as you say, like hatred and
and anger and hatred and violence are our fear and
pain metastasized, right, They're just extreme expressions of this very
primal feeling. And we don't have a society in particular
(42:11):
where people feel safe, where are safe really to say
I'm in pain right instead to say I'm angry, I
want this, I'm going to fight for that, I'm going
to vote for this person that feels like strength. But
we are going to have to open space and I
(42:33):
want I like your love, love loving space. Love. Love
is love is a muscle, right, I mean, love is
the most reliable muscle of human transformation. It's the only
thing is powerful in a human body as fear. So
that's what I see, and like, that's how I'm trying
to think about. What's this space I want to move
(42:54):
in And it needs all of us, with all of
our you know, everybody it's going to have a different
focus and a different sense of where to direct their agency.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
I'm curious because you've created on being and you have
interviewed some of the most exceptional people ever.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Like how did you prepare?
Speaker 1 (43:36):
But I'm curious of how you got to that level
of sitting down with some of the most exceptional people
and just absolutely having breakthrough conversation after breakthrough, Like how
did you do this?
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Uh? Yeah, Well, so I think that the empathic gift
is probably is is the gift part of it. But
then yes, there's a huge amount of preparation. Now what
I will say. What I will say that's exciting is
because previously, before I did this show, I was somebody
who would do something for two or three years and
(44:17):
then do something else for two or three years. And
I have learned the beauty of doing something for a
long span of time. And one of the beautiful things
is you just get better at it. Right. So I
became really aware in the last few years, just in particular,
that I felt my preparation, the quality of it was
(44:39):
as good, you know, you know, you also just get
a sense of relax I knew I knew what I
was doing, even though there's always that you know, that edge,
which is which is good for I think we helped
us right, But still I knew what I was doing,
and I realized that I can could do the same
(45:00):
quality of preparation and a fraction of the time. So
that's a little bit mysterious, but but we know that
we know that's true another and other fields as well.
I'm going to use another star trek.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Oh, yes, keep on coming. Now I'm gonna go and
watch it.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Well, I don't think it's I don't think it stood
the test of time, but there were some great lessons
for life so in the early Star Trek, which is
pretty cheesy. Uh, there's there's the Vulcan doctor Spock, which
you've heard of Spock.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I sure have.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
So he would do this thing with that that the
Vulcans did, which was called the Vulcan mind meld. It's
like there's the laying on of hands, but it's basically
my mind to your mind, your thoughts to my thoughts. Yeah,
and there would be kind of this telepathic thing going on.
But what I I don't know when I I don't
know when that that image came to me. I'm not
(45:54):
sure I was directly inspired by it, but I always
felt like, because you know, the Internet does make in
readible preparation possible overwhelmingly, But what I would do is
kind of and try to immerse in, you know, as
you've done with me other interviews, things people have written,
you know, what is noble and kind of feel like
(46:18):
it was like, I think the thing that I did
that maybe is a little bit different or just a
way that what I wanted to do is not just
know what people know, but how they think, so that
so that I would be asking questions that would be
interesting to them, which are gonna be more enjoyable for
(46:43):
them to kind of get lost in answering, so that
they forget that they're answering a question. We're having a conversation.
I think also, I learned over time, and I feel
like you're doing this too. You know, conversation is different
from an interview. Yes, so, yes, I'm the one who
comes with a kind of roadmap of questions and I'm postings.
(47:05):
It's an act of hospitality, which is a human is
a social technology for inviting people to be their best selves.
But also if it's a conversation, I'm going to have
reactions to what you're saying, and I'm going to share
something about me, right because just when you told me
a minute ago where you came from, I was just
(47:27):
about I just decided I'm okay. I know I'm not
supposed to be the one asking you for what I
was going to ask you just then, yeah, where did
you grow up? Like? You know? So? And then I
think the other thing that happens if you if it
becomes if you get into that flow of a real exchange,
then everybody forgets that it's you know, you forget you're
(47:48):
being interviewed. And I think the measure of a you know,
a success, A successful conversation is if the person I'm
talking to puts words around something you know in this
place that they've never quite put words around in that
way before. And I've certainly done that in this hour.
(48:08):
And then the magic of technology is that when you know,
when whoever presses play on this episode, and it may
be years from now, it's a time it's time travel
because they are like in the room with us, they
hear me in the moment put words around something in
a way I never have before. Yeah, And that's magic,
(48:32):
it really is. And that's like the mystery of us
reaching across each other. And the mystery is is you
have no idea where the conversation is going to go.
But that's the beauty and you trust that. Oh I
love it. Yes, you trust it. And it's scary and
it's risky. It's a safari. Well's I do?
Speaker 1 (48:49):
This question that keeps coming to me right now is
like you you really have spent your whole life exploring
the big questions of life, the really impactful questions. What
do you think is the big question you're still trying
to answer for yourself at this age, at this age.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
So I had to decide that I got to not
that joy and pleasure and play were not optional. I
(49:37):
I like, you know, really, for the years there and
I was pretty much single parenting, I drove myself to
exhaustion again and again again. And that wasn't That's not
what I was transmitting to other people, right. So, but
(49:57):
I'm I mean, I am actually now in a whole
new chapter. And one of the things that is fast
has been fascinating in my lifetime. And I want to
say this too. You know, there's so much we can
look around ourselves and just wring our hands and beat
our breasts from all this, there's also so much that
(50:20):
is just magnificent. There's so much learning. There's so much breakthrough,
beautiful science. What we're learning about the natural world, we're
learning about the cosmos, what we're learning about our bodies
and our brains. I went to a conference in Iceland
two weeks ago on this incredible research about psychedelically assisted therapies. Yes,
(50:42):
I mean we are on the cusp of actually being
able to work with our consciousness. Yes, So I just
set myself off. Yeah, So I one of the fascinating
things of my lifetime has been the evolution of aging,
because I'm sixty four and this is not what sixty
(51:06):
four was when I was growing up, or even when
I think I was thirty or forty. Like, just in
this twenty year span, I think aging has become very
relative to who you are and how you live and
just how you think about it. But I am embarking
on this whole new chapter and it might be as
(51:27):
long as the chapter I just went through starting the show,
and that's new. I like to be living with This
kind of evolution is wonderful. So so, I mean, I'm
actually at a place I was at twenty three. Again,
I mean, I have more ideas, I know what I know.
(51:50):
There are also doors that have closed, and I'm totally
at peace with that. You know, when you're twenty three,
you kind of think, well, I could go back to
I could go to medical school and become a doctor.
And it's actually kind of relief to not have all
those options and also un fortunate that I don't have
big regrets. I don't feel like, you know, I feel
like I walked a path that's when you really live. Yeah,
(52:13):
but I'm asking, you know, with the same kind of
sense of expectancy and not knowing like how I can
be of service in this world that I was asking,
you know, when I was in my early thirties, when
I started or mid thirties, mid midtal late thirties, when
(52:33):
I started thinking about, you know, what became on being,
And I'm asking it in such a different world where
we've been stripped of a lot of the illusions that
we had about just how everything was going to be up,
(52:54):
and we had defied the laws of physics, and sure
we still had a few problems, but we were always
getting better, right exactly. Fortunately, we we these basic forms
like schools and education in medicine, and politics and the
law and prisons and you know, and and again marriage
(53:16):
and family and gender. We those forms aren't fit for purpose.
So we're also and I think this is another reason
that our nervous systems are distressed, because it is actually
a stressful thing to be in a time when so
much is breaking, some of which needs to break, or
(53:38):
some of which wasn't working, a lot of which wasn't working.
But also where we're in the time where we can
see what's not we can see the forms that don't work,
we can see what's breaking, we're the ones who have
to start making remaking or making it back by brick,
and so I'm so that's and and also I think
whatever any of us takes on now in terms of
(54:01):
our sense of purpose, you know, not necessarily the particular activities,
is the work of the rest of our lifetimes, right
because what we everything that's with us now is civilizational.
And so that's interesting too in some ways to be
asking some of the same questions always asking at the
beginning of my adult life, but in such a different context.
(54:25):
And you know, right now, a lot of what I'm
doing is off off Mike, you know, I'm doing conversations
with small groups of people because there are again these deep,
deep things we need to talk about and things we
need to say out loud, and we can't say them
in public. But we have to do that. We have
(54:45):
to do that work because we're all we are walking
towards the beyond of this.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
I love that. That's such an incredible way to put it.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
I guess the last question I really have, and it's
a question that I ask every guest on the show show,
what moment in your life really split you wide open,
that changed everything, that made you either question, rethink, alter
the way you move in the world, Like, what was
(55:15):
that one moment for you that changed it all?
Speaker 3 (55:19):
I feel like if I thought about it long enough,
there are probably a few, but the one that is
probably the most obvious that comes to mind is in
my mid thirties, I had a really big depression, like
a really big clinical depression, and it was it was
(55:42):
the time that I finally kind of told myself the
truth about all that stuff in my family that I
talked about, because well, you know, you normalize, right, and
I really wasn't quite owning I wasn't owning the truth,
and also just the ways and this is what we do, right,
the ways I had shaped myself around that dysfunction and
(56:04):
that pain of someone else, and around not telling the
whole story. And so I mean, this was you know,
it was a really major depression, and it you know,
it had I had all the physical symptoms and at
some point, you know, just went to bed and could
(56:27):
not imagine. It's not I think, in that kind of depression,
it's not that you can't imagine the future. It's that
you can't imagine imagining the future, right. Yeah. I do
remember a day my daughter was really young. I remember
(56:48):
a day when I came downstairs and she looked at
me and said, Mommy, you look so sad, And in
that moment, I knew I had to get better, you know.
But the thing is, it sent me into it forced
me into this odyssey of self knowledge that I had
(57:11):
not wanted to do. And it was a slow climb out.
But I don't think I could have done everything I've
done since if I hadn't had that crash. And right
that's also a mystery of us, and it's always with me.
(57:32):
I mean, I'm fortunate because a lot of times when
people have had an experience like that, it's something that
comes back, and it could come back. And we did
a show called The Soul and Depression in the early Years,
and it was almost like that was a little piece
of therapy for me walking myself through it, and it
was really scary. That whole thing felt terrifying just to walk.
And I lived for a long time feeling better, but
(57:56):
feeling like I knew there was this abyss and it
was over here somewhere, and it could happen one day
that I just woke up and happened to be standing
right by it. You know that I could fall into
it again. Now I don't live that way anymore, but
I know how profamily shaped I am by that experience.
(58:17):
And so it's like not something that you would wish
on anyone or some equivalent of this. It's not even
something I would wish on myself, but I have to
be so grateful for it, and I have to be
grateful for my self at that age who took it
on as a you know, I don't want to say
(58:38):
a fight, like took it on as a calling to
learn everything I could and stayed with that. And here
I am.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
I love that, yeah, and it's I feel that in
my bones because this has been a healing journey for
me as well. I'm so grateful for your vulnerability and
to share this beautiful conversation. It's I told you when
when you first got here. My partner, Sophia is just
(59:10):
in awe of you, and I can see why you
have a beautiful spirit and soul and I'm grateful for
your work and your time today, and I hope this
is one of many more conversations we can have together.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
And thanks for being here today.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Thank you. I'm I feel like you're on a beautiful
and brave path. I'm really impressed, and yeah, blessings too,
and yes, I'd love to keep talking.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
Thank you, thanks Christopher being here. Thanks everyone for tuning
in for another week of Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
Wide Open with Ashland Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. How Our producers are
Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones. Production assistants
from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny
(01:00:13):
Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan and
Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris
Welcome back, everybody to another week of Wide Open with
Ashland Harris our guest today. Oh, I'm so, so so excited,
the one and only Krista Tippett. I could introduce you
as a million different things, but you're really the group
guru of what.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm doing right now.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm learning so much through the lens of your work.
You're a master at conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Your ability to show up and.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Be so insightful and so thoughtful and so just sitting
at the intersection of the human condition has been really
beautiful to witness and to see.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
From afar and to be able to sit now and
meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
That's so lovely to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you, welcome so much you.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
You now are podcasting on being, which everyone clearly already knows.
You have interviewed some of the most incredible people to
ever walk this planet, so I can't wait to unpack
that and how that inspires you, how that makes you
(01:21):
move internally to grow and be better every single day
based on the teachings of so many incredible people. And
you're a New York Times bestseller. I mean, you really
have done it all, and it's such an honor to
have you on this show, so thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I yeah, I'm happy to be here. As we were
just talking about how a conversation is an adventure and
I've loved Yeah, I've loved doing my show all these years,
and you're new in this sphere, and I, yeah, I
think what I've I also, now this point, really loved
(02:00):
me on both sides of the conversation. I just trust
it as a human experience.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I was just going to ask you that, how does
it feel now being on this side people saying, hey, you.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Know what we want you on our show. I want
to ask you the question.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Well, you know, actually, I think your job is harder, right,
In some ways it's relaxing because I think when you're
you know, when you're when you're hosting, which really is
an act of hospitality. You know, you're the one who
had to prepare, you're the one who has notes. I
just get to sit back and be surprised by what
comes to me and then just kind of see what surfaces.
(02:34):
And I do feel at this point like and maybe
you'll feel this way too at some point, I feel
like I've never been doing this for over twenty years,
but I feel like all the conversations that I've had
are kind of in conversation with each other inside my head.
So when I get asked a question, it's kind of like,
you know, a lot surfaces that is me, that is
(02:55):
wisdom I have from others, and that's kind of interesting
for me almost to observe. Yeah, I think you.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Have an incredible gift. I think you have an incredible
gift to see people and meet them where they're at.
I think not all people understand that. And the ability
to listen with no judgment is very powerful and very
(03:22):
rare these days, and I think more than ever we
need that, and I think it's so powerful and beautiful
we're able to do that through our work. And I
have to say that in a time that feels so
divided and so fragmented, and so difficult and so siloed,
it's so beautiful that you chose to come in here
(03:44):
and to have a conversation like this. As someone who
looks up to you, and I hope one day to
be in your shoes. I'm grateful to share oxygen with you.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, And I want to.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Start weirdly kind of where you start the beginning, you know,
the beginning of being raised in Oklahoma and.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Centered around.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Faith and religion and how that shaped you into making
a lot of life decisions. And I'm curious who you
were as a little girl and how you showed up
in the spaces you did and what made you curious,
what made you excited about life?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Such a great way to ask the question, you know,
one of I'm in my sixties now I love I
want to say, I love aging like I love this decade.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Say that again you need more women than.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
No, I mean life against the sixties. Oh, don't tell
me that though. Just again, No, it's good. It just
goes there so madly in love. I'm just so happy,
having so much fun. So and I say that because
one of the interesting things for me about I don't
want to say, just living in my body alone, living
(05:02):
in the world a long time, which is another way
to say aging, is that I have gotten to know
that little girl me and I've had to I've kind
of learned to love her. And you know, I was
very hard on myself most of my life, which I
(05:23):
think we kind of get trained to be in this culture,
really judgmental. And I realized at some point in recent
years that I mean you know, my little girl self
was in a very imperfect world, as we all are,
but really dealing with a lot. I was living in
a place, in a family where there wasn't a lot
(05:46):
of curiosity, and where the most important things that were
going on that of course I knew about, because children
know all the things the adults are trying to hide
from them, we were not talking about. And so I think,
you know, sometimes people say to me, oh, you must
have grown up in a family of great listeners, But
you know, we get shaped in a few different ways.
And you can get things because people taught them to
(06:08):
you or modeled them for you can also get them
because you longed for them because they were not there.
And so I when I look back at my young self, yeah,
I think she was. She just had was really asking
a lot of big questions, and the questions the adults
around her were not interested in. The only real books
(06:29):
we read in my house were the Bible. I mean,
the Bible was there, but there's a lot in the Bible.
There's a lot in the Bible that nobody was talking
about also, and so I just think I found, you know,
I found a lot of fuel for my imagination in
what was given to me. I didn't. I think a
lot also now about how living growing up in a
(06:51):
small town. You know, at that time, before the Internet,
you just didn't have a sense of the world out there.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I didn't have a family that travel There hadn't really
been any place for Texas, and I didn't really think
that was the bound those are the boundaries of the
known world. So I was really seventeen eighteen before I
started thinking about leaving. But when I when I left,
I mean I was really leaping into a void. I'd
(07:19):
seen Woody Allen's movie in Manhattan, you know, that's like
that was the image I had of this city I
now live in. Wow. So yeah, I think I had
a lot of I think she was brave my younger self,
and I'm only in and later life giving her credit
for that. I don't know how weird that sounds, because
(07:40):
I didn't used to talk this way. That's about my
younger self, and you should. It's a new thing, because like.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I am on the other side of the spectrum where
I was that little girl who said I was going
to be that professional athlete. I was going to be
under those lights, and I dreamed about it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I am imagined it.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I mean, you want a Peabody, you have the Humanitarian
Award from President Obama.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Did you ever think.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You were capable of such greatness as a young little girl?
Did you think and dream about those moments? No?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I didn't, I really didn't. I didn't. I didn't have
a sense of what was possible. But I was pretty
fearless once I started going. I mean, the truth is,
and I think this is also true for a lot
of people. I still think I'm this kid from Oklahoma,
you know. I mean, those credentials somehow belonged to me,
(08:42):
and somehow I marvel at them too, and don't know
how to claim them.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
It's so beautiful to I'm sure sit in the comfort
of your own skin right now.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Because your journey was not linear, like it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
You came from, you know, a very religious background, while
when you were being you know, raised as a young girl,
and you just you you went after this journalism route
and diplomacy and decide, you know, you want.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
To go to.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
The cold world or in Berlin, and then all of
a sudden you're like, oh wait, but theology and I
want to go to all these incredible universities like walk
me through it.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah, so there was an element for me of of
having a father I needed to impress. And you know,
one of the wisest people I've known in my life
who recently passed, he was ninety five. He would talk
about the things that have happened to us as they're
(09:57):
the negative negatives and the positive negati. Now you have
to kind of have solid ground beneath your feet to
say that thing that was so hard and hurtful actually
shaped me in quite a beautiful way, right only because
also at some point I knew to get distance from
(10:18):
it and as you say, become at home and myself
and distinguish between what I did because I was trying
to fulfill somebody else's bottomless you know, need, or doing
things because they gave me life. So yeah, I think
a lot of the things I did in my twenties
(10:41):
in a way I was trying to prove something, but
not to the world. And it wasn't really about what
I thought I could accomplish so much as justifying my existence.
But I walked into so many you know, incredible walk
through so many incredible doors, and learned so much that
has me ever since Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, that's really really special. And you talk so much
about purpose. How did you find your meaning and choosing
to do this type of work because you're really serving
the masses. So I'm curious what you felt in that time,
(11:25):
because you know, your purpose changes through the different seasons
of your life and your growth and where you're at.
And did you think of that at a time when
you were deciding what you wanted to do, you know,
because so much of your work on being is really
this beautiful intersection of the human condition, spirituality, ethics, Like,
(11:51):
did you feel that that at the time was like this,
this really big purpose for you to fulfill, to connect people, so.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
In a in a not in a linear way, but
in a roundabout way. Over a few years, the experience
I had in Berlin, you know, led very jagged line
to doing that I really had, I really believed, and
I think this made me a good citizen of the
(12:24):
late twentieth century, mid twentieth century. That politics was where
it was at. Yah, right, this is where the power is,
This is where the big hard questions are being asked,
This is where the solutions are being worked out. And
also like this is this is where if you can engage,
you will be helping save the world, right, And I think,
(12:44):
you know, in some ways, you know, weird circumstances led
me to have this opportunity to go to divided Germany.
But all of what I just said was playing itself
out on this very you know, technicolor screen. It was
a fault line of the world. But in Berlin. So
(13:05):
in Berlin I got up close to real political power.
My last couple of years there, I was the chief
age of our ambassador to West Germany, who was a
nuclear arms expert, and those nuclear missiles which were all
over Europe really were the existential threat of the time.
(13:26):
And it's hard to think your way into this now,
but we all lived knowing in some part of our
brains that you know, they could go off one morning. Yeah.
But I was also having the experience in Berlin, which
was divided into two and you had communism on one
(13:49):
side and capitalism on the other, and people who were
free on one side, and people were not free on
the other, and people who had just basic choice about
you know, not just what you had study in college
or where you would live, but what color you would
paint your room. And I saw how soul stealing, like
how much we need choice. It was more that the
(14:11):
possibility of possibility that was taken away from people, that
very thing that I somehow knew to sees. And I
got fascinated in Berlin because that division was you know,
was really was really along the lines of the geopolitical
division of the world. But I got fascinated by this
(14:33):
human superpower of crafting a life. And I saw that
on the Western side, where we you know, quote unquote
had everything and were so free and had so much choice,
it was possible to have a very superficial empty life.
(14:53):
And I saw on the Eastern side, where people had
raw materials to work with that were you know, sparse,
they still could create this incredible intimacy and dignity and beauty.
And I got fascinated with that. And I got discouraged
and kind of very existentially confused that the guys, and
(15:17):
it mostly was guys who were moving the missiles around,
we're not just we're not just not addressing that how
we make a life. They were totally disinterested in it.
And so, you know, and again in this jagged line,
it led me to go to seminary to think about
(15:37):
theology has a place where we not only think about God,
but about what it means to be human. I think
when I started the show, which was really about ten
years later, I was sorry to fgar out what to
do with all of that. But one of my motivations
(15:57):
was that you shouldn't have to go away for three
years as I did, and go into a lot of
debt as I did, to get exposed to this really
thrilling investigation and to get exposed to theology and to
be pondering the big questions. And you shouldn't have to
(16:21):
have a certain kind of education or even a certain
kind of religious education. And I just and I also
really felt like there were so many things. I'm just
saying this for the first time in this way, but
just as in my family, there's so many big things
that we should be talking about and we should we
(16:41):
should be finding words for even though even though words
are you really have to reach for words around a
lot of this. And so, you know, then this little
you know hour on public radio week which is what
it was at first, was my offering.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And I ask you this because because you live such
a purposeful life and you ask such beautiful, intentional questions
do you think purpose is found or do you think
it's created?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
I think it's both. But you know that's just there's
such a there's a whole lineage of that question. Right,
it's light, a particle, or a wave. It depends on
what question you ask. Yeah, I you know, I like
something you said a minute ago about I don't think
you use the word vocation, but you're saying we all
(17:37):
across our lifespan like there are different ways that we're
finding purpose, right, So, I think the one thing that
was wrong with this twentieth century that we came out
of is that it really collapsed the idea of purpose
and vocation like vocation which isn't which is really the
word we've used in America for what your purpose is,
(17:58):
and it's really about what you do for a living. Yes,
it's how you succeed. It's what you get paid for,
and that is really impoverishing. And you know you have
small children. I mean at a time in your life
you also have there are other things about you. But
I think like we all go through stages where you know,
when you are a parent of young children, that is
(18:19):
your primary vocation and everything else has to orbit around that.
I and I also I just think we what we're
called to because vocation, that word vocation comes from the
from the word you know for calling to call forth,
and that's important language to me. Now in this world
(18:40):
we live in, I think we're called that's that's a
question we need to be asking, and it's a it's
a way to turn the question of what do I
how can I possibly stand before all this crisis and rupture?
What are we being called to do? So I guess
this is a long winded way to say, I think
(19:03):
we all there's there's we all have so much agency
and so much possibility, and there's so many ways. Also
we know that that gets stolen from people. And yet
a very miraculous thing about the thing about human beings
is that we often you know, are made by what
would break us. And so I think purpose is always
(19:27):
a possibility and it can take so many forms. I
guess something that to me is a mystery that I
will not know the answer to in this lifetime is
you know, are there? I wonder how much positive, how
much what the range of possibility is? You know there
are other there? At least this point in my life,
when I've lived over six decades. You know, I wonder
(19:49):
if I had walked down that road, maybe that would
have been just as purposeful a life, but it would
have been very different, you know. Or is there something
you know? Do we are there are their best ways
forward and we find them, or we we orient towards
them or not. I don't know, but I'm fascinated. Any
(20:13):
Dillert the writer said something that has always stuck with me.
That she said, we are made and set here something
like to be astonished. And I feel like we all
get astonished at different things, yes, right, and so and
that is a that is a joyful purposefulness when we
follow our astonishment. Yeah, and so I think that can
(20:37):
go in so many directions, and some of them that
will in fact be our purpose. We will not get
paid for, right, but they will make life worth living. Yes,
and so I think that's the trap. And I get nervous,
and I think in this world that we're heading into
even more so about you know that everybody needs to
find meaningful work, which means that the work itself is
(21:01):
what's going to give your life meaning For some of
some of us are really fortunate to have work that
in and of itself, it's very nature gives us meaning,
but that's a trap. Yeah, if you know, putting working
to earn money to put food on table for your children,
that's purposeful too. So I'm kind of it's so true.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I had I really invest in growth. And it's interesting
because a lot of your work in terms of becoming
versus being is a really interesting intersection for me. And
(21:42):
I'm in a new season of my life as I've
newly retired from professional sports, two very young kids, and recently,
you know, went through a hard divorce and finding new
meaning and joy in my life. And I'm going through
through a lot of coaching and a lot of therapy
(22:03):
and a lot of growing. And it's such a beautiful
season to be in. And I don't look at it
as a scary thing. I think life is moving so
fast and we have to continue to evolve. And I
constantly want to hold myself accountable in terms of self
awareness of how I show up and how I serve.
(22:26):
And I had a coaching session yesterday and my coach
asked me what anchors me? Because so often we float away,
and if we get too close to the sun, we
start to burn, or if we get too far away
from the buoy. We don't have anything in sight that
grounds us, and the tide is always rising, right, it's
(22:47):
always changing. And it was really interesting that my anchor
is really what grounds me the most when I'm at
my most happiness, happiest d eight is when I'm with
my partner and I'm with my children. Those are my anchors.
Home to me is not a place. It is the
people in which I find most at ease and peace with,
(23:14):
and it is them.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
They are my why. But for me to do all
the other things, I have to provide.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So it's this really interesting complex of finding purpose and
meaning outside of my anchors. But also that's okay. I
do find that my work is very meaningful. Human connection
to me is very meaningful. But you're right, not all
the time.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Does it pay the bills?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yeah, I'm thinking as you're talking about, you know, the roomy,
the mystic Muslim mystic and poet, he created the whirling
dervishes And the point of that was, you know, spiritual
practice that helps us stay still inside while whirling. And
(24:03):
I was just thinking about that this week because I
think that is actually one of the things we are
all called to right now in this moment of time
where the world is one big field and it is
so what you're talking about, yeah, is getting grounded ground
that's still point and there may be a lot you
maybe have a lot of plates up in the air
around that, right, But that and yeah, and you know,
(24:25):
maybe that's a good way to think about what does
it mean to find purpose in life? It's not necessarily
that this thing or that thing is giving you purpose.
But are you staying still while whirling and able to
take joy?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I'm curious of what your relationship is now in this
season of life. What is your relationship to religion?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
To religion? Well, it's complicated. I feel that there have
been so many chapters.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
That's why I say in this chapter because I absolutely
do have different chapters.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I there's such a false and misleading you know, cultural
fight that isn't really representative of science or religion. That
you know that religion is somehow opposed to evolution. But
I like to think faith is the most evolutionary thing
of all. Right, Like if you are breathing, even if
(25:48):
your whole life long, you know, you could say from
year one to year ninety. I believe in God. If
you are having a life, what that sentence means, what
it's filled with is going to be so radically dynamic.
And so I don't know in terms of that one sentence,
(26:08):
you know, I just think for me, the word God
is just so small. I grew up with a religiosity
that had so much fear in it, like the world
was such a dangerous place. The body was an entry
point to danger. Everything was a slippery slope to sex.
(26:30):
And one of the things I realize, you know, looking back,
is how little, how little a sense of mystery and
a reverence for mystery there was, you know, because if
it's all fear and it's all rules, and it wasn't
all it wasn't only that. My grandfather especially was you know,
(26:51):
the most He preached hell, fire and brimstone, and he
was the most loving, funny person I knew. And I
actually think that that experience of that complex city was
really a great thing to take in. So yeah, I
think now for me, as I've grown older and through
(27:12):
my conversations and a lot through my conversations with physicists,
right with scientists who you know, paradoxically have a great
not just a comfort with mystery, but a delight in it.
They're always looking for, you know, living. One time early
on this interview really imprinted me. I was really early
(27:34):
with this geneticist who was also an Anglican priest, and
he said to me that the spirituality of the scientist
is like the spirituality of a mystic. That they are,
that the mystic and the scientists are both. They both
(27:57):
accept and are thrilled by the knowledge that there are
things we will never understand in this lifetime. And they're
always moving into that mystery deeper and deeper, and they
don't expect to tie it up, because then the fun
would be gone. And yet they are all looking for
They're both looking for truth. And I do think, you know,
we're you know, we're we are called all of us
(28:18):
to kind of discern truth as best we can, but
then also to keep living and letting our questions come
into those answers we have. And so I think for
me now it's you know, I was raised Southern Baptist.
I spent about ten years not religious at all. I
got it. I became Episcopalian. I think that got me
(28:38):
in touch with the church. Across time and space, and
religion across time and space. Like the church I grew
up in, everything was private and personal, and you know,
you're praying in your head all alone, which is such
an American thing. Yeah, And to have this experience that
is the experience of so many people, and you know,
(29:00):
certainly in a tradition like Judaism or Islam, where you
are saying words the same words that other people have
said before you for thousands of years. You know, I
learned to really, you know, have a reverence for that,
to find that a sacred thing. And I think that
also helped me be empathic about the deep religiosity of
(29:24):
religious others and really, you know, find find that very beautiful.
At this point, it's very open for me. It's very expansive,
and it's it is it's so personal. I think as
something I've come to think about for a long time,
(29:48):
I would I had kind of ambivalence about Christianity. I've
come to understand it is my mother tongue, like it
is my spiritual homeland and not to take not to
take up lightly. So for a long time I meditated,
and I've interviewed so many of the great Buddhist teachers,
and I'm very formed by that tradition and it's spiritual
(30:10):
technologies and it's wisdom. But at some point I realized, like,
I also need to be praying, because that's what I
learned how to do. And I do think there are
forms of religious practice and spiritual practice. I do think
it's very much like we find what is suited to us.
(30:30):
I mean, it's almost a little bit like the sport
we do, or like yoga. I mean, I think there's
so many different right, and you know, you have to
find the one, the postures and the pace, the kind
of challenge or restoration or whatever it is that you need.
And I kind of think that spiritual ritual is like
(30:51):
that too.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And I do think, you know, as you talk about that,
I can't help but to think travel is our greatest teacher.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, it really is, like.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
You know, coming from such a small town, and I too,
grew up on a military base. Both of my grandparents
were very successful in the Air Force, and we lived
right by Kennedy Space Center, and I was very much
so a NASA baby, and it just my parents didn't
(31:27):
enjoy the travel and the constant change of schools and
the different cultures.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I mean my father was.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Like Mobile Alabama to Birmingham to Arkansas to Hawaii, and
my mom was Germany and Spain and all these places
and they wanted nothing to do with it. And I
became a very good soccer player, and I did feel
like I was able to see.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
The world.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Through the len of what this.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
There was culture outside of the Western culture, and I
truthfully it's why I love soccer so much. It's everyone
shows up and you don't even speak the same language,
but the joy and love for the game and the
atmosphere of being connected to people.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
That's the beauty of sport.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It's not the game, it's the connection.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
And I think soccer has that, oh yeah, to a special.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Universal the language.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
It's just the connection piece is so is so important.
And not to get a little off topic, but when
you were just talking, you know, it's really important to
me because you talk about this often, about a big
defining moment and your life was really realizing your family
was terrible listeners.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, and you know, I don't want.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
To directly quote you, but you you really do talk
about listening is such an act of love. How did
you become such a great listener, How did you create
a space where people feel so comfortable to tell you
things they might otherwise not feel safe sharing.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
You know? Probably part of it, like you, is that
I just find the world and human beings so fascinating
and so bizarre and surprising. And the closer you look,
the harder you look, the more surprising it is and
the more as unexpected. I also I also am am
(33:39):
you know, ampathic. I don't know if people talked that
way when I was growing up. I mean, I think
we now know that that is a thing. Did you
happen to watch Star Trek the Next Generation? I did
not know. But do you know about the ship's counselor
well she is it was an empathy. She's half Baitazoid,
(34:00):
which is a race of empaths. And so once I
saw that, I realized that, I mean, I joke about
this with people or half batizoid after all. But I think,
you know, any kind of gift like this is something
that you can lose if you don't engage it. But
and let me just yeah, I think also growing up
(34:21):
with my father in particular, who was just really broken
and really deep down sad and troubled and wouldn't I
think that I spent a lot of my childhood. I
think this is true of other you know children, sometimes
of you know, trying to into it what he couldn't say,
(34:45):
and probably developing that that muscle, you know, feeling things
other people are feeling, and then being able to honor
that and lean into that and turn it into a conversation,
you know. I think listening listening. Like I learned growing
(35:12):
up that listening was being quiet while the other person
said what they had to say, so then it would
be my turn. And I really think that listening. I
think that the being quiet part is a byproduct. I
think listening is really is. Of course, of course I've
(35:36):
learned to be a better listener. I mean, anything we do,
anything we do repetitively, we get better at. But it's
it's really about following. It's about it's about treating the
muscle of curiosity, and it's about being present with your
(35:57):
curiosity to the other person. And for me, that is
second nature, and I've flexed those muscles for a long time.
I think they are basic social arts, they are basic
human capacities. However, they kind of get educated out of
(36:20):
us in this world we're really trained to be advocates
and to have strong opinions, and to be good in
arguments and to be presentational, and those things have their place,
but we're not all. They kind of work against showing
(36:42):
up with another person and truly being curious, which means,
I don't you know. I may know something about you, right,
I may know something about your identity, or I may
be looking at you and and you know, making observations.
I may know who you voted for. Right. I may
(37:04):
know something about you, know some identity you have, some
skill you have, but I know that that one thing
that there's so much more to you, and I want
you to surprise me. And in this culture, I think
we have these ideas. You know, we latch onto the
(37:25):
one thing we know, and we have an opinion about that,
and we don't imagine how complicated and fascinating and how
much that other person will probably defy a lot of
what we would expect and unless we really move towards them.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's it's so interesting that you say that, especially right
now with the political landscape and climate. I haven't lived
a lot of decades, but this is the first one
of my lifetime where I feel.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Like it's really scary.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, it's the first time I do feel scared to
raise two black You know, my children are black and brown,
and I'm a queer woman in this country.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I'm scared.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, And I show up in the spaces I can
and always choose love. It's the greatest asset and gift
I can give to the universe, and it's completely free.
And I'm curious for someone who has spent a lifetime
technically in politics and journalism, what do you think about
(38:36):
the current landscape of what's going on in journalism and
media and politics and religion, Like there's just so much
divide I'm curious of how you pour more into your
work because of it.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
First of all, I think everything that's happening now, we
have been walking into it for a long time in
all kinds of ways and not wanting to deal with
the things we would have needed to deal with. But
when I analyze this world through the human condition, I
(39:18):
think fear is running the show to such an extent
that all the things we want to take seriously and
that actually we wanted to think we'll protect us and
keep order in place, like politics and the economy, these
are just symptoms. If you know, living out of a
(39:39):
fear place means in our because we and also in
these thirty forty years, we've learned so much about what
fear does in a human body. It just collapses your
ability to think clearly, to think deeply, you know, it
kind of collapses our range of our sense of our agency.
Tore three things, fight, deny, or bury your head in
(40:02):
the sand. And that is a pretty good way to
analyze what we're doing. Yes, you know what's happening, and
all you know, we have these reckonings. We do have
these big reckonings, callings in this century, in this generation
of our species. You know that are I mean are
(40:24):
ecological I think most existentially, but also racial, so you know, social,
like we're redefining marriage and family and gender. What a
huge thing to be the general Like, if that were
the only thing that we're happening right now, that we
would this would still be really big and we'd be
tending to it better. But and then I think, and
(40:45):
I don't. We don't because we have this tendency, We
have this drive which I know also probably keeps us
sane to normalize, normalized, normalize. We came out of these
three years of global pandemic in which our everybody's nervous
system was on stuck on high for years. We were
(41:06):
also deprived of the very thing that helps us calm down,
which is proximity to other human beings. And so when
I look at the world right now, I see a distressed,
disregulated nervous system at a species level, you know, not
just in our individual bodies, but in our collective body.
(41:28):
That doesn't make anything simpler, That's so true. But I wonder,
you know, my question is, and I think this is
what I'm going to spend the next however many years
left I have left to be you know, really engaged, Like,
let's also work directly on that. If it's the human
heart and human bodies and human well being that all
(41:49):
of this fracture. And as you say, like hatred and
and anger and hatred and violence are our fear and
pain metastasized, right, They're just extreme expressions of this very
primal feeling. And we don't have a society in particular
(42:11):
where people feel safe, where are safe really to say
I'm in pain right instead to say I'm angry, I
want this, I'm going to fight for that, I'm going
to vote for this person that feels like strength. But
we are going to have to open space and I
(42:33):
want I like your love, love loving space. Love. Love
is love is a muscle, right, I mean, love is
the most reliable muscle of human transformation. It's the only
thing is powerful in a human body as fear. So
that's what I see, and like, that's how I'm trying
to think about. What's this space I want to move
(42:54):
in And it needs all of us, with all of
our you know, everybody it's going to have a different
focus and a different sense of where to direct their agency.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
I'm curious because you've created on being and you have
interviewed some of the most exceptional people ever.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Like how did you prepare?
Speaker 1 (43:36):
But I'm curious of how you got to that level
of sitting down with some of the most exceptional people
and just absolutely having breakthrough conversation after breakthrough, Like how
did you do this?
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Uh? Yeah, Well, so I think that the empathic gift
is probably is is the gift part of it. But
then yes, there's a huge amount of preparation. Now what
I will say. What I will say that's exciting is
because previously, before I did this show, I was somebody
who would do something for two or three years and
(44:17):
then do something else for two or three years. And
I have learned the beauty of doing something for a
long span of time. And one of the beautiful things
is you just get better at it. Right. So I
became really aware in the last few years, just in particular,
that I felt my preparation, the quality of it was
(44:39):
as good, you know, you know, you also just get
a sense of relax I knew I knew what I
was doing, even though there's always that you know, that edge,
which is which is good for I think we helped
us right, But still I knew what I was doing,
and I realized that I can could do the same
(45:00):
quality of preparation and a fraction of the time. So
that's a little bit mysterious, but but we know that
we know that's true another and other fields as well.
I'm going to use another star trek.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Oh, yes, keep on coming. Now I'm gonna go and
watch it.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Well, I don't think it's I don't think it stood
the test of time, but there were some great lessons
for life so in the early Star Trek, which is
pretty cheesy. Uh, there's there's the Vulcan doctor Spock, which
you've heard of Spock.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I sure have.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
So he would do this thing with that that the
Vulcans did, which was called the Vulcan mind meld. It's
like there's the laying on of hands, but it's basically
my mind to your mind, your thoughts to my thoughts. Yeah,
and there would be kind of this telepathic thing going on.
But what I I don't know when I I don't
know when that that image came to me. I'm not
(45:54):
sure I was directly inspired by it, but I always
felt like, because you know, the Internet does make in
readible preparation possible overwhelmingly, But what I would do is
kind of and try to immerse in, you know, as
you've done with me other interviews, things people have written,
you know, what is noble and kind of feel like
(46:18):
it was like, I think the thing that I did
that maybe is a little bit different or just a
way that what I wanted to do is not just
know what people know, but how they think, so that
so that I would be asking questions that would be
interesting to them, which are gonna be more enjoyable for
(46:43):
them to kind of get lost in answering, so that
they forget that they're answering a question. We're having a conversation.
I think also, I learned over time, and I feel
like you're doing this too. You know, conversation is different
from an interview. Yes, so, yes, I'm the one who
comes with a kind of roadmap of questions and I'm postings.
(47:05):
It's an act of hospitality, which is a human is
a social technology for inviting people to be their best selves.
But also if it's a conversation, I'm going to have
reactions to what you're saying, and I'm going to share
something about me, right because just when you told me
a minute ago where you came from, I was just
(47:27):
about I just decided I'm okay. I know I'm not
supposed to be the one asking you for what I
was going to ask you just then, yeah, where did
you grow up? Like? You know? So? And then I
think the other thing that happens if you if it
becomes if you get into that flow of a real exchange,
then everybody forgets that it's you know, you forget you're
(47:48):
being interviewed. And I think the measure of a you know,
a success, A successful conversation is if the person I'm
talking to puts words around something you know in this
place that they've never quite put words around in that
way before. And I've certainly done that in this hour.
(48:08):
And then the magic of technology is that when you know,
when whoever presses play on this episode, and it may
be years from now, it's a time it's time travel
because they are like in the room with us, they
hear me in the moment put words around something in
a way I never have before. Yeah, And that's magic,
(48:32):
it really is. And that's like the mystery of us
reaching across each other. And the mystery is is you
have no idea where the conversation is going to go.
But that's the beauty and you trust that. Oh I
love it. Yes, you trust it. And it's scary and
it's risky. It's a safari. Well's I do?
Speaker 1 (48:49):
This question that keeps coming to me right now is
like you you really have spent your whole life exploring
the big questions of life, the really impactful questions. What
do you think is the big question you're still trying
to answer for yourself at this age, at this age.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
So I had to decide that I got to not
that joy and pleasure and play were not optional. I
(49:37):
I like, you know, really, for the years there and
I was pretty much single parenting, I drove myself to
exhaustion again and again again. And that wasn't That's not
what I was transmitting to other people, right. So, but
(49:57):
I'm I mean, I am actually now in a whole
new chapter. And one of the things that is fast
has been fascinating in my lifetime. And I want to
say this too. You know, there's so much we can
look around ourselves and just wring our hands and beat
our breasts from all this, there's also so much that
(50:20):
is just magnificent. There's so much learning. There's so much breakthrough,
beautiful science. What we're learning about the natural world, we're
learning about the cosmos, what we're learning about our bodies
and our brains. I went to a conference in Iceland
two weeks ago on this incredible research about psychedelically assisted therapies. Yes,
(50:42):
I mean we are on the cusp of actually being
able to work with our consciousness. Yes, So I just
set myself off. Yeah, So I one of the fascinating
things of my lifetime has been the evolution of aging,
because I'm sixty four and this is not what sixty
(51:06):
four was when I was growing up, or even when
I think I was thirty or forty. Like, just in
this twenty year span, I think aging has become very
relative to who you are and how you live and
just how you think about it. But I am embarking
on this whole new chapter and it might be as
(51:27):
long as the chapter I just went through starting the show,
and that's new. I like to be living with This
kind of evolution is wonderful. So so, I mean, I'm
actually at a place I was at twenty three. Again,
I mean, I have more ideas, I know what I know.
(51:50):
There are also doors that have closed, and I'm totally
at peace with that. You know, when you're twenty three,
you kind of think, well, I could go back to
I could go to medical school and become a doctor.
And it's actually kind of relief to not have all
those options and also un fortunate that I don't have
big regrets. I don't feel like, you know, I feel
like I walked a path that's when you really live. Yeah,
(52:13):
but I'm asking, you know, with the same kind of
sense of expectancy and not knowing like how I can
be of service in this world that I was asking,
you know, when I was in my early thirties, when
I started or mid thirties, mid midtal late thirties, when
(52:33):
I started thinking about, you know, what became on being,
And I'm asking it in such a different world where
we've been stripped of a lot of the illusions that
we had about just how everything was going to be up,
(52:54):
and we had defied the laws of physics, and sure
we still had a few problems, but we were always
getting better, right exactly. Fortunately, we we these basic forms
like schools and education in medicine, and politics and the
law and prisons and you know, and and again marriage
(53:16):
and family and gender. We those forms aren't fit for purpose.
So we're also and I think this is another reason
that our nervous systems are distressed, because it is actually
a stressful thing to be in a time when so
much is breaking, some of which needs to break, or
(53:38):
some of which wasn't working, a lot of which wasn't working.
But also where we're in the time where we can
see what's not we can see the forms that don't work,
we can see what's breaking, we're the ones who have
to start making remaking or making it back by brick,
and so I'm so that's and and also I think
whatever any of us takes on now in terms of
(54:01):
our sense of purpose, you know, not necessarily the particular activities,
is the work of the rest of our lifetimes, right
because what we everything that's with us now is civilizational.
And so that's interesting too in some ways to be
asking some of the same questions always asking at the
beginning of my adult life, but in such a different context.
(54:25):
And you know, right now, a lot of what I'm
doing is off off Mike, you know, I'm doing conversations
with small groups of people because there are again these deep,
deep things we need to talk about and things we
need to say out loud, and we can't say them
in public. But we have to do that. We have
(54:45):
to do that work because we're all we are walking
towards the beyond of this.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
I love that. That's such an incredible way to put it.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
I guess the last question I really have, and it's
a question that I ask every guest on the show show,
what moment in your life really split you wide open,
that changed everything, that made you either question, rethink, alter
the way you move in the world, Like, what was
(55:15):
that one moment for you that changed it all?
Speaker 3 (55:19):
I feel like if I thought about it long enough,
there are probably a few, but the one that is
probably the most obvious that comes to mind is in
my mid thirties, I had a really big depression, like
a really big clinical depression, and it was it was
(55:42):
the time that I finally kind of told myself the
truth about all that stuff in my family that I
talked about, because well, you know, you normalize, right, and
I really wasn't quite owning I wasn't owning the truth,
and also just the ways and this is what we do, right,
the ways I had shaped myself around that dysfunction and
(56:04):
that pain of someone else, and around not telling the
whole story. And so I mean, this was you know,
it was a really major depression, and it you know,
it had I had all the physical symptoms and at
some point, you know, just went to bed and could
(56:27):
not imagine. It's not I think, in that kind of depression,
it's not that you can't imagine the future. It's that
you can't imagine imagining the future, right. Yeah. I do
remember a day my daughter was really young. I remember
(56:48):
a day when I came downstairs and she looked at
me and said, Mommy, you look so sad, And in
that moment, I knew I had to get better, you know.
But the thing is, it sent me into it forced
me into this odyssey of self knowledge that I had
(57:11):
not wanted to do. And it was a slow climb out.
But I don't think I could have done everything I've
done since if I hadn't had that crash. And right
that's also a mystery of us, and it's always with me.
(57:32):
I mean, I'm fortunate because a lot of times when
people have had an experience like that, it's something that
comes back, and it could come back. And we did
a show called The Soul and Depression in the early Years,
and it was almost like that was a little piece
of therapy for me walking myself through it, and it
was really scary. That whole thing felt terrifying just to walk.
And I lived for a long time feeling better, but
(57:56):
feeling like I knew there was this abyss and it
was over here somewhere, and it could happen one day
that I just woke up and happened to be standing
right by it. You know that I could fall into
it again. Now I don't live that way anymore, but
I know how profamily shaped I am by that experience.
(58:17):
And so it's like not something that you would wish
on anyone or some equivalent of this. It's not even
something I would wish on myself, but I have to
be so grateful for it, and I have to be
grateful for my self at that age who took it
on as a you know, I don't want to say
(58:38):
a fight, like took it on as a calling to
learn everything I could and stayed with that. And here
I am.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
I love that, yeah, and it's I feel that in
my bones because this has been a healing journey for
me as well. I'm so grateful for your vulnerability and
to share this beautiful conversation. It's I told you when
when you first got here. My partner, Sophia is just
(59:10):
in awe of you, and I can see why you
have a beautiful spirit and soul and I'm grateful for
your work and your time today, and I hope this
is one of many more conversations we can have together.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
And thanks for being here today.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Thank you. I'm I feel like you're on a beautiful
and brave path. I'm really impressed, and yeah, blessings too,
and yes, I'd love to keep talking.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
Thank you, thanks Christopher being here. Thanks everyone for tuning
in for another week of Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
Wide Open with Ashland Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. How Our producers are
Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones. Production assistants
from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny
(01:00:13):
Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan and
Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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