September 1, 2025 • 52 mins
Ashlyn sits down with legend and entertainer, Margaret Cho. They talk about growing up in a queer bookstore in San Francisco, why dominatrixes should be well paid, and why we laugh. Digressions include Margaret’s beloved dogs, lesbian yearning, and a laundry list of improvements to the Queer Ultimatum.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Love. Welcome back to another week of Wide Open. I
am your host, Ashlyn Harris, and I'm so excited today
to introduce our guest, Margaret Show. Who is the powerhouse, trailblazer,
(00:22):
brutally honest, deeply funny, politically, fearless, you name it, huge advocate. Margaret,
Welcome to the show. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you? Thank you so much. That's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I'm doing great, good good. And I you know, I
love I love your comedy. I love the rawness, I
love the realness of it. And you've been doing this
for a very very long time.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
But before I start, I'm curious I like to ask everyone,
you know, because what this show really is about is
who you are outside of what you do. Because I
think so much of who we are as public figures,
you see such a small part of it, but you
really don't know the origin or where it started or
how it started. So before we dive into all the
(01:13):
greatness that you carry throughout your career, I'm curious of
you know. I know you were born and raised in
San Francisco.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Correct, that's correct?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yes, what was it like being little Margaret? Tell me everything?
Tell the listeners who you were as a kid, and
how you your becoming of who you are today.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I think I will I was a super shy child,
and I realize now probably somewhere on the spectrum like
autism of like the neurodivergence because I was really nonverbal
for like a long time. That had a lot to
do with the circumstances of my upbringing. It was very
(01:57):
difficult because when I was born on my got deported
and then I went with him back to Korea, and
then he came back to the United States three years later,
so I was separated from my mother all that time
she was a citizen and staying in the country, and
then he came back and became a citizen. But it
was a very difficult start, so I had language barrier,
(02:19):
but also some kind of difficulty like connecting with people
because I was separated from my mom. I was kind
of taken away into a different country. So it was
like there's a lot of stuff that made me very
socially awkward, and like when I went to school, I
was socially awkward with kids and I didn't really have
(02:40):
a lot of friends. It didn't really have a lot
of connections with people, but I was making fun of
people in my head, Like I was making fun of
like anything in my head, and like it would only
come out if I was writing. Like sometimes we'd have
to like write essays in school, and then I would
write something and then teachers would be like really offended
(03:00):
because I would be really mean about them or like
other people in the school, like other kids, And so
I got called at the principal's office multiple times for
being disruptive, but only in my writing, and like my
writing my feelings, and that's sort of when like jokes
would start to come out. And so then later when
I was in high school, I got more confidence, and
(03:23):
then I was in theater and I was doing comedy
classes in school, and I went to performing arts kigh school,
so our teacher would sign us up for comedy clubs
at night to do open mics. And this is when
I was like fourteen, that's when I started doing comedy.
So I didn't really have a social life of friends
until I was a teenager and started doing that. But
(03:44):
being a comedian brought me friendship. It brought me connection
with other kids and then other people later on. You know,
it's how I communicate. It's still how I communicate most
my friends or comedians or musicians or people who are
in the arts somehow, you know, Like that's just the
community that I really vibe with and who I connect with.
(04:04):
But that's what it's always been.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Is there. I mean, I've read so much about you know,
who you were as a child, and you always have
been very open that you know, you were a Korean
American born here and you said you were I don't
want to use the word fat, but you that's the word.
You said, A little overweight, goofy kid. Do you find
that you hid behind your comedy in terms of because
(04:30):
you you did? You have mentioned you were like bullied
a little bit and those younger like years of primary school,
middle school, high school. Do you think comedy is kind
of that buffer that if I made, if I was
so funny and I was so likable and I got
out there before everyone else, I would like kind of
take the eye off of me being the like butt
(04:51):
of a joke or you just just was natural.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well yeah, I mean also it's like a deflection also,
like when you're fat as a kid like I was,
and like and as a teenager like always like my
friends were really pretty girls, like pretty girls like to
have a fat friend because then they can have their
legal representation.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So you become like their weird attorney where guys.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Will come up and bring their proposals to you so
they can talk to the pretty girl.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Like it's very it's so.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
This is great weirdly like your sexuality, your desirability, even
if you're a kid, but still like all that is
discounted because of your way. Yeah, you know, and so
I never felt like I could participate in society because
I was larger, and you know, I think that psychologically
(05:42):
that's always had a sort of like effect on me.
You know, my body image has so much to do
with how I felt inside, and so that was hard
to change.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, because I can imagine you know, you as a child,
because you're funny as hell, Like, do you ever I'm
so curious, like when did you first realize the world
actually didn't know what to do with someone like you,
who was this really funny phenom young kid who made
everyone laugh, who didn't look like you know, these typical
(06:16):
girls next door. Did you know that you were different
and you were moving differently and this is like a
real profession for you to continue performing or were you
just like, I'm young, you know, I'm fearless, I'm kind
of flying off of the seat of my pants. That
really that stuff doesn't really I'm not thinking like that.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, I didn't really know, but I did get a
lot of encouragement, you know, Like I got to work
with Jerry Seinfeld when I was a really young teenager
and he said, you know, you, if you decide to
pursue this, you'll have a very successful career. And that
was such a vote of confidence. You know, it was
really just a kid, and I didn't know what I
(06:59):
was doing, and he was like, you have a unit perspective,
you have a really unique voice, and you're really talented,
and you will go far if you want to do
this with your life. And I was like such a
And he was at that time and still is the
biggest comedian in the world, so you know, and we're
still friends and we're still like he's always encouraging me, which.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Is the best.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
So I had a lot of people who were super influential,
people like Rosie O'Donnell, who knew me when I was
a really young kid, who was incredibly encouraging. Yeah, lots
of different people who were very very famous at the time,
like Joan Rivers was incredibly encouraging. So I had a
good amount of people who were very very successful tell
(07:42):
me you were going to do well if you want
to do this, Like they always gave me that choice,
like you're free to do what you want, but if
you do this, you're gonna you're gonna be okay, and
like that's kind of all I needed to hear, was
that kind of confidence because I didn't know have.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
A clear path.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
There was no clear path for me, you know, because
I wasn't going to school. I wasn't going to like
any career that anybody knew how to be in. But
I also did love to do stand up comedy. Like
I loved that I didn't have to worry about anybody else.
Nobody had to give me a job. All they had
to do was give me stage time and I could
create the world on my own.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And you were such a trailblazer and all of it.
It's just it's I'm so curious, when did queerness enter
the equation for you? Because you've been such a loyal
advocate for so long and you've been so open about
the things that our community goes through. And that's you know,
between mental health and suicide, pseudicidal thoughts and all of
(08:45):
these things like when did that becoming actually come out
and who you were as a kid or was it
way later in life.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Well, that was always there. I mean, my parents were
always very open to queerness. So they had a gay bookstore.
They owned a gay bookstore, so they were.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Like, gosh, that is amazing.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, in the seventies they were like in business with
gay people, and they were like hosting gay events, and so,
you know that was gay was considered normal.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Straight was always the anomaly.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
So when I was younger, I always identified as a lesbian.
It wasn't until later that I realized, oh, I'm actually bisexual,
and then later I think, oh, well, I think queer
is actually probably the right terminology. It's the one that fits.
That was always part of my reality. It was always
part of my comedy, and it was always part of
my life, and it was very much like just.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
A detail, and I think it was.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Really kind of acceptable because of the fact that I'm
not white, I'm not a man. Then those two things
kind of like people are in the eighties and nineties,
p weren't as curious about it, like people are very
curious if you're sort of straight, white male, like you
(10:08):
sort of have show any gayness.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, they want.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
To know, but everybody else the kind of like there's
a question marking around it. And then there's there's a
gradness to the idea of the fluidity. And then I
remember that what the movie that really had an effect
on me is Basic Instinct. I love Basic Instinct. Yes,
I love the lesbian chic of the nineties. You know,
that's so cool, And so there was a kind of
(10:33):
elegance around it. There was a kind of mystery, and
then you know, Sandy Bernhard, who's a really good friend
of mine, also was very like mysterious about it. So
there was a kind of eloquence that you could have
around queerness and being a woman, in particular in entertainment
in the early part of the nineties, you know, Madonna
was playing around with it, so there was a kind
(10:53):
of safety there, which led to him more openness later
of course, with people, very very big women in comedy
coming out. But you know, it's a different it's a
different world now, you know when we think about it,
although right now there's this kind of conservative element creeping
back which is really scary, but in general, if you're
(11:17):
not a white man, you can get away with a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
That part, yeah, that part, and it, you know, because
you have been so open with your experiences with you know,
an eating disorder and sexual abuse, and you know, it's
been a really incredible vulnerability you've given to your audience
about the things that you've had to overcome. And I'm curious,
(11:43):
like how humor became away maybe of survival for you
and then eventually became a way of thriving because still
to this day, there's just no one like you. And
I think that's so cool because you know, as a
queer woman and tattoos who played sports her whole life, like,
(12:03):
I didn't see people like me, and I'm almost about
to be forty, so I can imagine you sure as
hell didn't see people like you, and how that became
how you really leaned into comedy for a way of
survival based on the things your experience in your personal life.
Is that pretty true to say that was almost your
(12:24):
outlet because sports was always my outlet. Yeah I needed it. Yeah,
I agree.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I think that like sports, like comedy is like an outlet,
and it is really a place to go for safety.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Humor, though, is hope.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Humor is a way to find hope in a situation
that seems hopeless, whether that is abuse, whether that's addiction,
whether that's eating disorders, whether that's any kind of problem
that you're having. If you can laugh about an aspect
of it, then there's a glimmer of hope that you'll
survive it. If you even break it down to what
laughter is is an unexpected into air that's going to
(13:02):
ensure that you live for the next moment. So it's
unexpected life crashing in when you didn't expect it, which
is going to keep you alive to see it through.
So there's the metaphor of laughter, but also the physical
action of it is life affirming. There's a lot of
(13:22):
like I think truth to it. You know, the people
who laugh, they live longer because we're just forced to,
like breathe. I think it's really vital. And there's a
lot of things that I do just in my daily
life to get ahead of everything too, Like I have
a really strong meditation practice, I have a really strong
(13:44):
I'm in recovery, so I'm in a strong recovery community
that I'm super involved with.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So there's a lot of stuff that we do.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
That's really great, and congratulations on that, because it is
definitely something that is not easy, and especially in the
profession of inner attainment. Because what I think, and I
can't say for certain because I'm not a comedian, I
think what separates a lot of us in the entertainment
industry is if I'm playing a character, I can hide
(14:16):
behind those walls, right if I'm playing, if I'm on
a movie, or if I'm an athlete, like I just
have to bring that character to the table. And it's
not necessarily it is me because I'm in it and
I'm experiencing it in real time. But there is something
I can hide behind. I think what people don't realize
(14:37):
is like comedy is so different because no matter whatever
shit you're going through behind closed doors, when you show
up on stage, you actually have to be you and
you're you're telling the truth through comedy. And you did
that long before it was cool. What gave you that
fire to do that when things especially when things are
(14:58):
fucking hard and you have to show up and give
yourself to so many people, Well.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
It's to me, it's really fun.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Like it's just also really fun because we can all
laugh together about these things. When people laugh, it's like
what laughter means is an agreement. They're like, when you're
laughing at something, you're almost unconsciously in agreement with what's
being said, because laughter is such an unconscious, involuntary act.
(15:28):
For the most part, we laugh because we can't help it,
like it's funny to us, and so we laugh, and
it's like something that you almost can't explain. So when
people are laughing, it's a recognition of a humanity in
you that makes you want to give back and give more.
So it's only fulfilling, you know. To me, it's never
felt like I am unable to recoup my investment. And
(15:52):
what I've done like always get back every time I
do a show or you know whatever, I get back
so much more than the effort that I put at.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
So it's always.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Really rejuvenating and really replenishing. It's a very nourishing thing
to be an artist in this way. So and it
has to continually be renew because I always have to
write new material except to write and continue to perform,
continue to rejuvenate my ideas and refresh what I'm doing.
(16:24):
So the more effort I put into it, the more
that I get out of it, and it always always
come out very very well, well compensated.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
At the end.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, I love that. And I was reading quite a
bit about your the early years of what you were
doing and you like got into dominatrix Like what that
is so far?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Oh yeah cool. I was not good at it. That
I only did it was it was so bad.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Like I worked at a well, I worked at this
place that was like I helped open the retail shop
because it used to be just a factory, and then
they opened a retail store with they were like making
like leather dildos and they were selling them in their
retail store. And then I there was a dominatrix that
work there.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I got in on a couple of her sessions.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I was really bad at it, like I because what
a dominatrix is is it's you have to be a therapist,
a sex worker, a mind reader. Sometimes you have to
be so you're like so uh connected to this person
and and and their desires and drawing them out and
and and and really kind of.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Giving life to their fantasy.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So you're an actor, you're sometimes are parent, you're all
of these things. That I don't have any ability to be,
you know, so I think that, Yeah, dominatrixes are really
that is one of You're also a body worker, yeah,
you know, you're like a physical therapist. There's a lot
of stuff that goes into play when you're working in
(17:56):
that capacity, which so it's very welcombled compensated financially, which
is good.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
But it's hard work.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm sure it is. And I'm curious though so much
of us fear like we're scared to stand outside of
the box or the lane, you know. And I love
that you just have this bullish mentality. You're like, I'm
gonna fucking do everything and I'm gonna live this like
well rounded life and I'm gonna feel zero shame about it.
(18:23):
And it's like, I wish I could be more like you.
I because we do internally innately, like inside of us,
we have these desires of doing things, but we're so
scared to act on them because it might not fall
into the norm. And everything you've ever done has been
(18:43):
literally an outside of what people would say is conventional.
And do you think like that? Do you give it
doesn't help by being so open give permission to other
people to experience life at its fullest these ways, or
you're just like, yeah, I hope.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So I mean I hope that it does, you know,
Like I just really like to do different things. I
like to do things that are challenging. Also, like that's
why I love stand up comedy because it's like this
thing that will never always quite figure out, you know,
because every audience is different and every show is different,
and everything is always it's always a blank slate that
(19:26):
you have to go and try to figure out and
reconfigure all these things. And also with the comedy, your
fame quote unquote fame or whatever will only buy you
about ten seconds of people's like ears, you know, and attention,
so you have to deliver really quickly always. So that's
what keeps us all on our toes. I mean, that's
why you'll see, like comedian, we have to work every night,
(19:49):
So I pretty much do. I have to work every
night somewhere because I can't lose that connection with people.
So I guess because you have to keep going back,
that's what's so engaging and thrilling about it.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, I mean, practice is a big part of anyone's profession.
To stay what they call like on the saddle, I guess,
but do you ever have Has there ever been a
moment where like this is why I never could be
a comedian because I'm I don't have that mentality. I
just can't imagine if I stood up there and no
(20:25):
one laughed, Like for me, what is the scariest part
of being a comedian? Like as a goalkeeper and as
an athlete, you know, I make one mistake and it
changes the entire game, Like I don't have the liberty
to fuck up. I just don't. I'm the last person
in defense. So I'm curious, what's that? What does that
(20:46):
look like for your world as a comedian. Do you
ever walk off stage and you're like, holy shit, I
just really fucking tank that or is it just you
don't land it? Like, how what does that look like
for comedy?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Well, there's a micro failures and micro successes within each performance,
you know, with every subject that you broach, with everything
that you try out, you know, there's always like dips
and then you know and there's yeah, there's there I
do poorly sometimes and I'm like I can't believe, like
I couldn't dig myself out of that, you know, because
(21:19):
we have escape patches, like even if like comedians have
ways of getting us out of situations that we've tried
tried in the past, you know, like when you've done
this for long enough, you kind of get sort of
a game plan of, oh, I can deal with this,
like I've dealt with this before, I know what this is.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
But every once in a.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
While you'll come up with the situation that you can't
I can't best it, and then I just have to leave.
But also the stakes aren't as high necessarily, I mean,
they're emotionally high. Sometimes as you drew up there, you
don't want to fail, you know. But at the same time,
in the grand scheme of things, it's just because people
not laughing, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Because you do think differently, Margaret, Like you've always been
so unapologetically political in a lot of ways, and God,
especially now that a world that is so fragmented and
so divided and so touchy when it comes to politics,
Like has the crowd shifted and the energy shifted now
(22:21):
versus you know maybe at the beginning of your career,
is there a really different dynamic.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah, it's very different, And it's really like about remembering
to be an entertainer. Like, That's what I always want
to have in mind for myself, because I don't want
to be so mad and preachy and yelling at people
about what they should believe. Politically, I think that I
do really strongly have opinion opinions about what I think
(22:50):
is right. But at the same time, it's not my
place to rattle on about that unless it is, you know,
unless I do do a lot of shows in political context.
I do shows, I did, you know, lots of work
on the Kamala Harris campaign. You know, I do work
in the political arenas. But I'm not Then it's not
(23:15):
necessary to, you know, be super angry at people.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
You know, you just have to accept that you're an entertainer.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I want to remember I'm an entertainer first, yep, and
that's what I care about doing a good show more
than other things. But I still care about those other
things and that can come out in other ways.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this. And you
mentioned you know about your sobriety, and you really made
it at such an early age. Not many people, especially
the pressures of which which you have to go through
(24:02):
as a fourteen year old child standing up and moving
an audience to laughter, Like what can you talk to
me about your substance abuse? And was it based on
the pressure? Was it based on No?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I think like I'm just naturally inclined to like inebriation,
Like I'm just a naturally inclined person towards addiction, like
I like alcohol, I like drugs, like I like the
feeling of being drunk and high, and I.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Do it to excess, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Something that I can go back and do it, you know,
because I've tried tried my whole life to try to
be an occasional user and a casual drinker, and I've
failed every time. So now it's in the last decade, Wow,
I've made the real decision. I'm not doing this anymore.
And it has to be very, very forceful to really
(25:07):
stay that way. So now recovery is a very big
part of my life. Whereas before, like I was always
like kind of broaching it, like wanting to do it,
but never quite committing. So that's like the latest journey is,
let's do this. I mean, if I had stuck to it,
I would have like over thirty years of sobriety, but
(25:29):
I don't because I always thought I can go back
and do that and that's the one thing that I
can't do.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, exactly. And has the sobriety shifted your work at
all today or do you feel, you know, even being
fully present it's better or do you feel like has
it changed anything of the way you move on stage
or not at all?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean sobriety has given me a lot
of I mean, it's just improved every area of my
life in ways that I mean I can't even express,
like it's just so much better because my mood overall
is better. So it's just a completely new life. And
(26:15):
it's so different from even just being in a quote
unquote occasional casual because I can't be you know, So
it's really, yeah, it's pretty incredible what sobriety has done.
But overall, I'm just a happier person, which is the
best outcome of it all.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I mean, that's the best thing.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
It really is, And you know, I think it's I've
watched it firsthand in my family and it definitely is
not easy, and it is a lifelong commitment of every
day choosing exactly what you said you have very strict
guardrails around how you choose to live and probably who
(26:58):
you choose to live it with, and shows up in
those spaces. Yeah, but I am I'd love to dive
into and I can't wait. Your queerness and however evolving
it has been, you know, for you over the years,
because you are one of the ogs. And what I'm
finding now in our community is people are so quick
(27:23):
to want to put you in a box, even though
that's what the same box we've been fighting so hard
to get away from in our community. It's like, how
do you label yourself? As you said, you were like
a lesbian, then you were you wanted to be bisexual,
and then you wanted to be queer. And it's just like,
I feel a lot of people in our community have
(27:46):
been coming out and shifting whatever identity that makes sense
for them, and they're taking a lot of hatred online.
And I'm curious of your thought on this because yours
has been ever changing and in the public eye for
a long time. What is your view on it? Because
I'm I think labels are so wonky and weird, and
(28:07):
also who fucking cares? Like does it really matter? Everything?
And everyone is on a spectrum, but uh, you know,
as someone who's lived it, what are your thoughts on it?
And how has you know your queerness affected your audience
and fans over time.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I think that people have a lot of.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Invested in identity and the labels, you know, because the
labels have a lot of baggage. You know. We we uh,
we want to know where people stand because we want
to know like who is going to be there for us,
so who is going to speak to us?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Or you know, all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
But I think with queerness it's tough because we can
evolve and shift over time and over relationships. And so
that's why I like the term queer because it actually
allows me to have the fullness of experience that I am.
But at the same time, like, I also understand when
(29:11):
people are like, like, there's a lot of hysteria around
like Jojo sewell, yes, I.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Think I didn't want to say it, but we're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
It's interesting because people were super like, you know, she's
come out and she's going to be like this lesbian champion.
And I think that we love this idea of like
somebody who is like strongly identified in being lesbian and strong,
and then when they have a relationship with a man,
(29:42):
it's shocking.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's like a cold.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Shower of like wait, wait, wait, you know, like but
I thought, you know, and so people have so much
invested in this idea of who somebody is. But you know,
I think generally sexuality is it's a spectrum, you know,
and it's going to move. So it's like it's going
to move along with you in life, and it's going
(30:05):
to change and grow with you. So it doesn't discount
the lesbian that she was before, you know. I think
it just expands the idea of who we all are.
There is no I don't think there's such a thing
as like gay betrayal.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I mean, unless you go full like.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Log cabin and then you want gayness to be outlawed.
Like that's sort of a different story. Like they're like,
it's not like these horrible stories of people who say
they've converted and now they see the truth like that
that's I don't think that's possible anyway. You know. I
don't think you can pray away the gay no matter
how hard you want it. Like it's I think it's
(30:47):
just understanding that we have more within us than we
realize and that also doesn't mean as much as we think. So,
but yeah, we do get very allied with people who
we believe we sort of take ownership, especially if artists,
(31:07):
because we want them to be our hours. Then we
want them to be our people. And I think they
still are, you know, they still can't be.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
It just it's hard, you know, like it's it's it's
hard to I feel for both parties, you know, I
feel for those the flex. Fletcher is another one. Oh yeah,
Fletcher is a.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Big, very big deal. I feel for Fletcher fans. So
I understand that feeling of betrayal because it was all
of this, these years of really writing about lesbian yearning.
And the the thing is, you can't mess with lesbian yearning.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
You really can't.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
When you tap into the sort of Katie line, constant
craving vibe, you can't deviate from that. So then when people,
you know, then she do sort of out the song
about a man and this kind of during Pride month also,
there's all this stuff that people feel very betrayed, but
at the same time, you know, doesn't discount all of
(32:12):
the stuff that she made you feel before. Exactly, it
shouldn't it shouldn't, you know, but it is.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I get it. I get both sides.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, you know, like I don't know how I would
feel like if chapel Ron suddenly had a trad wife
like like up like updo and kind of different look
like you know, that would be but that's yeah, yeah,
that would be strange. But at the same time, it's
like we don't have the option to take artists and say, well,
(32:42):
then you have to be this for the rest.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Of time, which also isn't fair. It's not fair because
we were evolving.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I mean, we're all evolving, all.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Evolving in real time, and the world is moving with
technology like so fucking fast, like we have no choice
to be set in our ways anymore, like life outside
of our box and realm, like everything is moving so quickly.
It feels like, oh it's a lot of times technology
is such a great thing. But it's that's why we're
(33:13):
all fucking stressed out all the time, you know. On
that kind of same topic, because queerness to you, you know,
while you were married and your identity like it has
been ever changing, just like we were we were talking about,
and what I loved is you know, I know you're
not married anymore, but you had an open marriage. So
(33:34):
I'm curious, like, over this time of love sex partnership,
how has that evolved? Because I know a lot of
my friends who are in open marriages, but like, no
one's willing to talk about it, And I'm like, why
are we not willing to talk about it? Because it's
taboo because it's not traditional, Like, how did you feel
(33:56):
in that?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
I didn't think it worked. That's why I didn't want
to talk about it when I was doing it. Oh,
I don't think. I inherently don't think it works. I
think because nobody is willing to put up the level
of communication that it actually requires. Like for you to
be in an open relationship or a polycule, you have
to do so much actual, honest work to make it viable.
(34:21):
Nobody I don't want to do that. There are people
in the world that may want to, I've not met
them yet. It's so tough to do, and it's so
it requires such a level of maturity and grace and
finesse that nobody wants to do. Like I already, as
(34:42):
a lesbian, don't want to process anyway. So I'm like
a bad lesbian because I hate processing I hate talking
about feelings. I hate going to couple's therapy. I hate
it so much, like I don't want to do it.
So I am in a really bad way when it
comes to like, you know, any kind of open relationship,
any kind of polycule, any kind of I believe it
(35:02):
only works with people are incredibly mature, serious, communicative, open
and working on it actively. And I don't think all
parties are.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
But aren't we like jealous beans at our core?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
And I'm just like I think you had maybe mentioned
that at some point and you were so real about it.
It's like I'm a jealous like fucking human at my core,
Like I what's mine as mine and it's sacred and
I don't want people touching it or like being like
you know what I mean? And yeah, it was jealousy.
(35:37):
The biggest thing that creeps in, Like how do you
not have jealousy in an open marriage or relationships?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
It's really impossible not to also having jealousy of you know,
the partner having jealousy about you, you know, like it's
a two way street, and so it's impossible to completely negotiate.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Out of that, you know. So now what I am
in I'm in.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Sort of a series of like situationships that are super
casual that have been going on for years, that are
not going anywhere, that are also they are like like
paused for years at a time as well. So my
situation now is super grown, I think, but also not.
It's not a polycule, it's not a relationship, it's not anything.
(36:26):
So I'm very comfortable there. I don't know if I
would ever be in another relationship that wasn't that because
now I'm so committed to my own serenity that i
don't feel like anything else is appropriate.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
But you know it's possible.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Are you like, are you open to dating? Are you dating?
What is your like? Where are you at now with
all of that?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yeah, I'm open to dating. I'm open to meeting new people.
I'm there, I'm out there, I am dating, But I'm also,
you know, not really willing to be in a committed relationship.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
It's really like an interesting thing as you continue to
you know, progress and age and understand yourself more. I
think as we were younger, it's like this weird timeline.
We're all trying to check all these boxes, and you know,
once you do this, you got to move to the
next step and do to that, and then once you
(37:24):
do all of it, and you lose yourself in the process,
you're like, what the fuck was I doing? Like I
don't even recognize the person I'm looking at in the
mirror anymore. And you get so much more comfortable being alone. Yeah,
I just like you know, I you know, a few
years ago, got divorced and had the kids, had the home,
had the life, and it's just not always the fairy
(37:47):
tale you think it is.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
No.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
No, Sometimes being in a relationship is the loneliest thing,
and that's I don't ever want to feel that again.
So I'm grateful now tended to be where I am,
where I have companionship when I want it. But I'm
also seeking that solitude which I really deserve.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I want.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I love that. And at your home, no pets, no nothing,
just like zen.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh no, I have many pets.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Ah tell me everything.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I have this stuff right here.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Oh my god, Hi, sweetie.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
That's Lucia. She's always on my body somewhere. She's always
just she's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Who needs a partner when you have Lucia.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I have a Lucia, Katerina. I have three cats who
are beautiful and hilarious and just my champions.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So I have a very full life.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
You know, I have many many animals, which is all
I need really.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
And I get the energy of just the stillness and
the ease, and I think maybe I hope that comes
with time because I hope to feel that as well.
But have you what have you really learned in this
healing process that took you years to actually like believe?
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I think that it's it's easier to attain than we think.
And then it just requires a kind like what are
what are the elements that are necessary for me? It's like, okay,
well I need to train my body to have peace
and silence so that it's like, you know, I have
(39:31):
a really strong meditation practice, which is very helpful. And
it's a practice because you're just practicing every day at
the same time to do this like exercise where you
have nothing and but silence and breathing and peace, because
you may need to recreate it at other points in
the day. So we practice this every day so we
(39:52):
can keep going back to a place of like peace,
so that if I'm out in the world and something's frustrating,
I can go back there mentally I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
And for someone who has lived such a full, beautiful
life as still at such an early age, what does
matter most to you right now during this time, because
it is a really interesting time in our life, and
I'm just curious, like, what does matter most to you
right now in this moment of.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
So much Yeah, there's so much uncertainty. I think what
really matters is friends, What really matters is art, What
really matters is animal friends. What matters is peace, you know,
and enduring peace within and trying to spread peace all around,
you know, and uh, you know what matters is is
(40:42):
really how we live in this moment. You know, now
is a good opportunity for political resistance. Right now is
a very good opportunity to talk about queerness, to talk
about feminism.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
To talk about equality.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
You know. So these are important things that important discussions
that are happening to take our world back from a
very destructive force. So, you know, it's a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
And I love that. I can only imagine that in
a time that feels like so much pain and grief,
making people laugh helps heal you in the process. Yeah, yeah,
And I think that's such a beautiful thing. Like what
I love so much about comedy and sports. There's no AI.
(41:33):
It is a live performance. Yeah, no one can take
that away from you. No one can necessarily recreate it
because it's a human interaction moment. It's just a fucking
moment to be so present and just drop everything else.
And how lucky are we that we get to provide
(41:53):
that for people?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So lucky.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
It's such a beautiful thing. So I'm so grateful for that.
So yeah, it's really it's really power.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
What are you still fighting for? Because you've been an advocate,
like for a very long time. You San Francisco is
like the hub of everything literally, especially you know when
you were born and raised there, Like, what are you
still fighting for? And what have you finally realized? You
just have to release.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
I have to release this idea that it's all going
to be fixed in one day. It's this idea that
there will be a point where everything is going to
be better. There will always be things that we need
to work on, and that's just because of society is
huge and there's a lot of things that are going
to be necessary to take care of but.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
What I still want to fight for is fairness.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Fairness for people, artis for people to live, and for
certain resources like you know, the gayteen suicide hotlines I
would like to fight for. You know, that's a very
small thing, but it means so much. The symbolic meaning of.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
That is so huge.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
So something like that, I think we really need to
uh recreate that for our community. And I know that's
happening with the Trevor Project and people like that fighting
for it. But you know, stuff like that, like we
need to fight for queer youth, That's always going to
be something that's incredibly important to me.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
I love that and I couldn't agree more. And it's
it's it's been hard to watch the vitriol of like
what people are willing to do to do to harm
their neighbor. Yeah, and it really comes from a place
of like fear of not.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Knowing and misunderstanding, you're the bravery of knowing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, I think that's a true, a true thing. I
think people in our community are so open just to
just say the things and live life and color that
it makes other people who do want to check the
boxes feel uncomfortable and feel shamed. That they can't do
the same.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Right, that's true.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
So it's it's a really interesting thing. And I always
ask this question to every guest, So I want to
ask you this before before we time is up and
we have to go. But what is the one moment
in your life, whether professionally or personally, that has really
split you wide open, that changed everything for you, that
(44:37):
really made you open your eyes up and be like wow.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I don't know. I mean, I think it's mostly.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
That it's still happening, like that there's still battles to
be one, there's still things that need to be changed,
you know, Like I've been going to like punk rock shows.
I used to go to rock against Reagan in the eighties,
like these like things where we were like still protesting
(45:07):
with all of our might. And then through the Bush era,
I was like protesting. So I got protested so much
I was disinvited to the Democratic National Convention in two
thousand and four, Like there was like I was like
protesting so much, Like I was so and that I
thought that we would be pasted it by now you
(45:28):
know that we and yet we're dealing with some of
the worst you know, fascism that I've ever seen. So
I think that it's the fact that it's not over,
that it continued, that's still the enormity of the battle,
but it still keeps you fighting, you know. So it
doesn't make me want to give up, but it's it's astonishing.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, I think that's the thing that we have to
continue to spread the message. It's I love that you
say that. It's you know, so much as moving and
so much is happening, and I think people are retreating
so much in fear and we need We've been here before,
maybe in a different form, but like rebellion and protech
(46:10):
like that is the layer and foundation our community has
been built on. And now is not the time to
roll over and like push this news button just say okay,
I'll wait till this four year term is up. It's like, no,
we cannot give into that type of power. Like we
have the ability to change it, and it should ignite
(46:32):
and excite us to be energized to fight like hell
and find solutions instead of just what I constantly feel
is people are burnt out and fatigued from all the
fucking shenanigans that we see in our algorithm and all
the antics we see on every social media site and
(46:53):
news site, and I'm like, that is that but that
is the game plan. That is the point, and what
are we going to do about it?
Speaker 2 (47:01):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (47:02):
So I love I love that about you and it's
as I could learn a lot from it as well.
And I want to be a legacy to me is
really leaving this this world better than I found it,
and it's it's not better than I found it. And
I'm hoping that we continue to like dig deep because
(47:26):
we got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
We did a lot of work to do. And the
last thing I'll ask just the light in the load
a little bit, what like queer shows right now? Are
you watching have you been watching anything? What is your
thoughts on like shitty television or reality television? Like are
you watching the Queer Ultimatum?
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Like Okay, mal should have stayed at home because she
was really going off.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I was like actually, also actually.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
And Martika or Martique they I was like, this is
this is not a contest to whose grandparents died faster?
Like this is like awful, like and I think that.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Marie was like came and she was I'm gonna fight everybody.
I was like, so the ultimate and then also on
my algorithm, Vanessa is like.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Up there from last the first one to go huh.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
You know somebody's life can be ruined when you're on
reality television.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah. So yeah. My opinions are, Maurice should have stayed home.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
This is great.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I do kind of want to eat at.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Their food truck, though, I know right, I feel like
it would be busting.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
They would have good food.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Would you go on a queer show like that?
Speaker 2 (48:42):
I would if I could. Yeah, I mean yeah I would.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
But I don't not that one because I don't have
a partner. That's I would, you know, so it would
have to be a different way. Yeah I would, I
would definitely. I mean that would be interesting.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah, would that would be cool? We need more like
Queer Love Island.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I would love like a Queer Love Island, you know
where you're because. But I do love ultimating because he's
very specifically very lesbian.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yes, there's something so lesbian about it.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Serious question. I have to know. Thoughts on the host.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Well, the host is like, I wish it was Robbie Hoffman.
I think it should be Robbie Hoffman. I guess like
I just think it should be a couple.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
But also there was one part she chimed in and
she was like talking about her husband, and I go,
I was like.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Oh, like what I mean, I don't I think she
I don't really have an opinion about her, and like
I think she's fine or whatever. But I think that
they should have two and I think it should be
a I think it should be a two women. It
has to be women, has to be it should. Robbie
Hoffman and Gabby Windy.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Is a great power couple.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
They're super funny and super beautiful together. So like why
not you know, like to me, it's a lost opportunity
to have like a super cool, like very cool couple
or just mean a lesbian or just you know, somebody
who was in the life, like who gets it?
Speaker 1 (50:08):
So who can also contribute in a real way on
queer partnership because it is not the same.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
It's not the same, and it's two.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
I mean, you know, I want like Tig Natar, like
I want Tig, I want fortune. I want to do it,
you know, like any of us, we would love to,
but a couple would be ideal.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
So I do agree with you. I think they have
to contribute more in a way that is like insightful
because it's not the same and we I think these
if you're interacting that close, like that's the least we
could do. But I agree, I think Robbie and Gabby
would be absolutely it would be so cute, hilarious.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
Also, I think they should get away from the beach,
like we should just go to like Pump Springs. Let's
get rid of the get just like Ebby whatever. But
I have I love that show and yeah, totally, Oh my.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Gosh, Well you're you're an absolute dream. Before we go,
is there anything coming up, anything you are working on
that you want to tell the audience to come check
you out? Or anything on the list?
Speaker 3 (51:15):
My new tour, My new tour, it's called Choligarchy. It
starts in Provincetown on August first. I'll be traveling all
over the place and you can find out where if
I'm coming to you at Margaret Show dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Amazing, Well are you going to be in New York
because I'm going to be there.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yes, yes, I'll be there in November.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Really okay, well count me in.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
I'm going to get to perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
I can't wait. Well, thank you so much, Margaret for coming.
Thank you, it's been such a pleasure. Thanks for giving
us all your tea and insight, and what a beautiful
life you have just absolutely continued to live the fullest.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Thanks for being on Wide Open. Wide Open with Ashland
Harris is an iHeart women's sports production. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff,
(52:10):
and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive
producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our
editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm your host,
Ashlyn Harris.
Love. Welcome back to another week of Wide Open. I
am your host, Ashlyn Harris, and I'm so excited today
to introduce our guest, Margaret Show. Who is the powerhouse, trailblazer,
(00:22):
brutally honest, deeply funny, politically, fearless, you name it, huge advocate. Margaret,
Welcome to the show. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you? Thank you so much. That's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I'm doing great, good good. And I you know, I
love I love your comedy. I love the rawness, I
love the realness of it. And you've been doing this
for a very very long time.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
But before I start, I'm curious I like to ask everyone,
you know, because what this show really is about is
who you are outside of what you do. Because I
think so much of who we are as public figures,
you see such a small part of it, but you
really don't know the origin or where it started or
how it started. So before we dive into all the
(01:13):
greatness that you carry throughout your career, I'm curious of
you know. I know you were born and raised in
San Francisco.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Correct, that's correct?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yes, what was it like being little Margaret? Tell me everything?
Tell the listeners who you were as a kid, and
how you your becoming of who you are today.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I think I will I was a super shy child,
and I realize now probably somewhere on the spectrum like
autism of like the neurodivergence because I was really nonverbal
for like a long time. That had a lot to
do with the circumstances of my upbringing. It was very
(01:57):
difficult because when I was born on my got deported
and then I went with him back to Korea, and
then he came back to the United States three years later,
so I was separated from my mother all that time
she was a citizen and staying in the country, and
then he came back and became a citizen. But it
was a very difficult start, so I had language barrier,
(02:19):
but also some kind of difficulty like connecting with people
because I was separated from my mom. I was kind
of taken away into a different country. So it was
like there's a lot of stuff that made me very
socially awkward, and like when I went to school, I
was socially awkward with kids and I didn't really have
(02:40):
a lot of friends. It didn't really have a lot
of connections with people, but I was making fun of
people in my head, Like I was making fun of
like anything in my head, and like it would only
come out if I was writing. Like sometimes we'd have
to like write essays in school, and then I would
write something and then teachers would be like really offended
(03:00):
because I would be really mean about them or like
other people in the school, like other kids, And so
I got called at the principal's office multiple times for
being disruptive, but only in my writing, and like my
writing my feelings, and that's sort of when like jokes
would start to come out. And so then later when
I was in high school, I got more confidence, and
(03:23):
then I was in theater and I was doing comedy
classes in school, and I went to performing arts kigh school,
so our teacher would sign us up for comedy clubs
at night to do open mics. And this is when
I was like fourteen, that's when I started doing comedy.
So I didn't really have a social life of friends
until I was a teenager and started doing that. But
(03:44):
being a comedian brought me friendship. It brought me connection
with other kids and then other people later on. You know,
it's how I communicate. It's still how I communicate most
my friends or comedians or musicians or people who are
in the arts somehow, you know, Like that's just the
community that I really vibe with and who I connect with.
(04:04):
But that's what it's always been.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Is there. I mean, I've read so much about you know,
who you were as a child, and you always have
been very open that you know, you were a Korean
American born here and you said you were I don't
want to use the word fat, but you that's the word.
You said, A little overweight, goofy kid. Do you find
that you hid behind your comedy in terms of because
(04:30):
you you did? You have mentioned you were like bullied
a little bit and those younger like years of primary school,
middle school, high school. Do you think comedy is kind
of that buffer that if I made, if I was
so funny and I was so likable and I got
out there before everyone else, I would like kind of
take the eye off of me being the like butt
(04:51):
of a joke or you just just was natural.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well yeah, I mean also it's like a deflection also,
like when you're fat as a kid like I was,
and like and as a teenager like always like my
friends were really pretty girls, like pretty girls like to
have a fat friend because then they can have their
legal representation.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So you become like their weird attorney where guys.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Will come up and bring their proposals to you so
they can talk to the pretty girl.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Like it's very it's so.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
This is great weirdly like your sexuality, your desirability, even
if you're a kid, but still like all that is
discounted because of your way. Yeah, you know, and so
I never felt like I could participate in society because
I was larger, and you know, I think that psychologically
(05:42):
that's always had a sort of like effect on me.
You know, my body image has so much to do
with how I felt inside, and so that was hard
to change.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, because I can imagine you know, you as a child,
because you're funny as hell, Like, do you ever I'm
so curious, like when did you first realize the world
actually didn't know what to do with someone like you,
who was this really funny phenom young kid who made
everyone laugh, who didn't look like you know, these typical
(06:16):
girls next door. Did you know that you were different
and you were moving differently and this is like a
real profession for you to continue performing or were you
just like, I'm young, you know, I'm fearless, I'm kind
of flying off of the seat of my pants. That
really that stuff doesn't really I'm not thinking like that.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, I didn't really know, but I did get a
lot of encouragement, you know, Like I got to work
with Jerry Seinfeld when I was a really young teenager
and he said, you know, you, if you decide to
pursue this, you'll have a very successful career. And that
was such a vote of confidence. You know, it was
really just a kid, and I didn't know what I
(06:59):
was doing, and he was like, you have a unit perspective,
you have a really unique voice, and you're really talented,
and you will go far if you want to do
this with your life. And I was like such a
And he was at that time and still is the
biggest comedian in the world, so you know, and we're
still friends and we're still like he's always encouraging me, which.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Is the best.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
So I had a lot of people who were super influential,
people like Rosie O'Donnell, who knew me when I was
a really young kid, who was incredibly encouraging. Yeah, lots
of different people who were very very famous at the time,
like Joan Rivers was incredibly encouraging. So I had a
good amount of people who were very very successful tell
(07:42):
me you were going to do well if you want
to do this, Like they always gave me that choice,
like you're free to do what you want, but if
you do this, you're gonna you're gonna be okay, and
like that's kind of all I needed to hear, was
that kind of confidence because I didn't know have.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
A clear path.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
There was no clear path for me, you know, because
I wasn't going to school. I wasn't going to like
any career that anybody knew how to be in. But
I also did love to do stand up comedy. Like
I loved that I didn't have to worry about anybody else.
Nobody had to give me a job. All they had
to do was give me stage time and I could
create the world on my own.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And you were such a trailblazer and all of it.
It's just it's I'm so curious, when did queerness enter
the equation for you? Because you've been such a loyal
advocate for so long and you've been so open about
the things that our community goes through. And that's you know,
between mental health and suicide, pseudicidal thoughts and all of
(08:45):
these things like when did that becoming actually come out
and who you were as a kid or was it
way later in life.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Well, that was always there. I mean, my parents were
always very open to queerness. So they had a gay bookstore.
They owned a gay bookstore, so they were.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Like, gosh, that is amazing.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, in the seventies they were like in business with
gay people, and they were like hosting gay events, and so,
you know that was gay was considered normal.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Straight was always the anomaly.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
So when I was younger, I always identified as a lesbian.
It wasn't until later that I realized, oh, I'm actually bisexual,
and then later I think, oh, well, I think queer
is actually probably the right terminology. It's the one that fits.
That was always part of my reality. It was always
part of my comedy, and it was always part of
my life, and it was very much like just.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
A detail, and I think it was.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Really kind of acceptable because of the fact that I'm
not white, I'm not a man. Then those two things
kind of like people are in the eighties and nineties,
p weren't as curious about it, like people are very
curious if you're sort of straight, white male, like you
(10:08):
sort of have show any gayness.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, they want.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
To know, but everybody else the kind of like there's
a question marking around it. And then there's there's a
gradness to the idea of the fluidity. And then I
remember that what the movie that really had an effect
on me is Basic Instinct. I love Basic Instinct. Yes,
I love the lesbian chic of the nineties. You know,
that's so cool, And so there was a kind of
(10:33):
elegance around it. There was a kind of mystery, and
then you know, Sandy Bernhard, who's a really good friend
of mine, also was very like mysterious about it. So
there was a kind of eloquence that you could have
around queerness and being a woman, in particular in entertainment
in the early part of the nineties, you know, Madonna
was playing around with it, so there was a kind
(10:53):
of safety there, which led to him more openness later
of course, with people, very very big women in comedy
coming out. But you know, it's a different it's a
different world now, you know when we think about it,
although right now there's this kind of conservative element creeping
back which is really scary, but in general, if you're
(11:17):
not a white man, you can get away with a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
That part, yeah, that part, and it, you know, because
you have been so open with your experiences with you know,
an eating disorder and sexual abuse, and you know, it's
been a really incredible vulnerability you've given to your audience
about the things that you've had to overcome. And I'm curious,
(11:43):
like how humor became away maybe of survival for you
and then eventually became a way of thriving because still
to this day, there's just no one like you. And
I think that's so cool because you know, as a
queer woman and tattoos who played sports her whole life, like,
(12:03):
I didn't see people like me, and I'm almost about
to be forty, so I can imagine you sure as
hell didn't see people like you, and how that became
how you really leaned into comedy for a way of
survival based on the things your experience in your personal life.
Is that pretty true to say that was almost your
(12:24):
outlet because sports was always my outlet. Yeah I needed it. Yeah,
I agree.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I think that like sports, like comedy is like an outlet,
and it is really a place to go for safety.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Humor, though, is hope.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Humor is a way to find hope in a situation
that seems hopeless, whether that is abuse, whether that's addiction,
whether that's eating disorders, whether that's any kind of problem
that you're having. If you can laugh about an aspect
of it, then there's a glimmer of hope that you'll
survive it. If you even break it down to what
laughter is is an unexpected into air that's going to
(13:02):
ensure that you live for the next moment. So it's
unexpected life crashing in when you didn't expect it, which
is going to keep you alive to see it through.
So there's the metaphor of laughter, but also the physical
action of it is life affirming. There's a lot of
(13:22):
like I think truth to it. You know, the people
who laugh, they live longer because we're just forced to,
like breathe. I think it's really vital. And there's a
lot of things that I do just in my daily
life to get ahead of everything too, Like I have
a really strong meditation practice, I have a really strong
(13:44):
I'm in recovery, so I'm in a strong recovery community
that I'm super involved with.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So there's a lot of stuff that we do.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
That's really great, and congratulations on that, because it is
definitely something that is not easy, and especially in the
profession of inner attainment. Because what I think, and I
can't say for certain because I'm not a comedian, I
think what separates a lot of us in the entertainment
industry is if I'm playing a character, I can hide
(14:16):
behind those walls, right if I'm playing, if I'm on
a movie, or if I'm an athlete, like I just
have to bring that character to the table. And it's
not necessarily it is me because I'm in it and
I'm experiencing it in real time. But there is something
I can hide behind. I think what people don't realize
(14:37):
is like comedy is so different because no matter whatever
shit you're going through behind closed doors, when you show
up on stage, you actually have to be you and
you're you're telling the truth through comedy. And you did
that long before it was cool. What gave you that
fire to do that when things especially when things are
(14:58):
fucking hard and you have to show up and give
yourself to so many people, Well.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
It's to me, it's really fun.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Like it's just also really fun because we can all
laugh together about these things. When people laugh, it's like
what laughter means is an agreement. They're like, when you're
laughing at something, you're almost unconsciously in agreement with what's
being said, because laughter is such an unconscious, involuntary act.
(15:28):
For the most part, we laugh because we can't help it,
like it's funny to us, and so we laugh, and
it's like something that you almost can't explain. So when
people are laughing, it's a recognition of a humanity in
you that makes you want to give back and give more.
So it's only fulfilling, you know. To me, it's never
felt like I am unable to recoup my investment. And
(15:52):
what I've done like always get back every time I
do a show or you know whatever, I get back
so much more than the effort that I put at.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
So it's always.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Really rejuvenating and really replenishing. It's a very nourishing thing
to be an artist in this way. So and it
has to continually be renew because I always have to
write new material except to write and continue to perform,
continue to rejuvenate my ideas and refresh what I'm doing.
(16:24):
So the more effort I put into it, the more
that I get out of it, and it always always
come out very very well, well compensated.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
At the end.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, I love that. And I was reading quite a
bit about your the early years of what you were
doing and you like got into dominatrix Like what that
is so far?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Oh yeah cool. I was not good at it. That
I only did it was it was so bad.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Like I worked at a well, I worked at this
place that was like I helped open the retail shop
because it used to be just a factory, and then
they opened a retail store with they were like making
like leather dildos and they were selling them in their
retail store. And then I there was a dominatrix that
work there.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I got in on a couple of her sessions.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I was really bad at it, like I because what
a dominatrix is is it's you have to be a therapist,
a sex worker, a mind reader. Sometimes you have to
be so you're like so uh connected to this person
and and and their desires and drawing them out and
and and and really kind of.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Giving life to their fantasy.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So you're an actor, you're sometimes are parent, you're all
of these things. That I don't have any ability to be,
you know, so I think that, Yeah, dominatrixes are really
that is one of You're also a body worker, yeah,
you know, you're like a physical therapist. There's a lot
of stuff that goes into play when you're working in
(17:56):
that capacity, which so it's very welcombled compensated financially, which
is good.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
But it's hard work.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm sure it is. And I'm curious though so much
of us fear like we're scared to stand outside of
the box or the lane, you know. And I love
that you just have this bullish mentality. You're like, I'm
gonna fucking do everything and I'm gonna live this like
well rounded life and I'm gonna feel zero shame about it.
(18:23):
And it's like, I wish I could be more like you.
I because we do internally innately, like inside of us,
we have these desires of doing things, but we're so
scared to act on them because it might not fall
into the norm. And everything you've ever done has been
(18:43):
literally an outside of what people would say is conventional.
And do you think like that? Do you give it
doesn't help by being so open give permission to other
people to experience life at its fullest these ways, or
you're just like, yeah, I hope.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So I mean I hope that it does, you know,
Like I just really like to do different things. I
like to do things that are challenging. Also, like that's
why I love stand up comedy because it's like this
thing that will never always quite figure out, you know,
because every audience is different and every show is different,
and everything is always it's always a blank slate that
(19:26):
you have to go and try to figure out and
reconfigure all these things. And also with the comedy, your
fame quote unquote fame or whatever will only buy you
about ten seconds of people's like ears, you know, and attention,
so you have to deliver really quickly always. So that's
what keeps us all on our toes. I mean, that's
why you'll see, like comedian, we have to work every night,
(19:49):
So I pretty much do. I have to work every
night somewhere because I can't lose that connection with people.
So I guess because you have to keep going back,
that's what's so engaging and thrilling about it.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, I mean, practice is a big part of anyone's profession.
To stay what they call like on the saddle, I guess,
but do you ever have Has there ever been a
moment where like this is why I never could be
a comedian because I'm I don't have that mentality. I
just can't imagine if I stood up there and no
(20:25):
one laughed, Like for me, what is the scariest part
of being a comedian? Like as a goalkeeper and as
an athlete, you know, I make one mistake and it
changes the entire game, Like I don't have the liberty
to fuck up. I just don't. I'm the last person
in defense. So I'm curious, what's that? What does that
(20:46):
look like for your world as a comedian. Do you
ever walk off stage and you're like, holy shit, I
just really fucking tank that or is it just you
don't land it? Like, how what does that look like
for comedy?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Well, there's a micro failures and micro successes within each performance,
you know, with every subject that you broach, with everything
that you try out, you know, there's always like dips
and then you know and there's yeah, there's there I
do poorly sometimes and I'm like I can't believe, like
I couldn't dig myself out of that, you know, because
(21:19):
we have escape patches, like even if like comedians have
ways of getting us out of situations that we've tried
tried in the past, you know, like when you've done
this for long enough, you kind of get sort of
a game plan of, oh, I can deal with this,
like I've dealt with this before, I know what this is.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
But every once in a.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
While you'll come up with the situation that you can't
I can't best it, and then I just have to leave.
But also the stakes aren't as high necessarily, I mean,
they're emotionally high. Sometimes as you drew up there, you
don't want to fail, you know. But at the same time,
in the grand scheme of things, it's just because people
not laughing, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Because you do think differently, Margaret, Like you've always been
so unapologetically political in a lot of ways, and God,
especially now that a world that is so fragmented and
so divided and so touchy when it comes to politics,
Like has the crowd shifted and the energy shifted now
(22:21):
versus you know maybe at the beginning of your career,
is there a really different dynamic.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah, it's very different, And it's really like about remembering
to be an entertainer. Like, That's what I always want
to have in mind for myself, because I don't want
to be so mad and preachy and yelling at people
about what they should believe. Politically, I think that I
do really strongly have opinion opinions about what I think
(22:50):
is right. But at the same time, it's not my
place to rattle on about that unless it is, you know,
unless I do do a lot of shows in political context.
I do shows, I did, you know, lots of work
on the Kamala Harris campaign. You know, I do work
in the political arenas. But I'm not Then it's not
(23:15):
necessary to, you know, be super angry at people.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
You know, you just have to accept that you're an entertainer.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I want to remember I'm an entertainer first, yep, and
that's what I care about doing a good show more
than other things. But I still care about those other
things and that can come out in other ways.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this. And you
mentioned you know about your sobriety, and you really made
it at such an early age. Not many people, especially
the pressures of which which you have to go through
(24:02):
as a fourteen year old child standing up and moving
an audience to laughter, Like what can you talk to
me about your substance abuse? And was it based on
the pressure? Was it based on No?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I think like I'm just naturally inclined to like inebriation,
Like I'm just a naturally inclined person towards addiction, like
I like alcohol, I like drugs, like I like the
feeling of being drunk and high, and I.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Do it to excess, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Something that I can go back and do it, you know,
because I've tried tried my whole life to try to
be an occasional user and a casual drinker, and I've
failed every time. So now it's in the last decade, Wow,
I've made the real decision. I'm not doing this anymore.
And it has to be very, very forceful to really
(25:07):
stay that way. So now recovery is a very big
part of my life. Whereas before, like I was always
like kind of broaching it, like wanting to do it,
but never quite committing. So that's like the latest journey is,
let's do this. I mean, if I had stuck to it,
I would have like over thirty years of sobriety, but
(25:29):
I don't because I always thought I can go back
and do that and that's the one thing that I
can't do.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, exactly. And has the sobriety shifted your work at
all today or do you feel, you know, even being
fully present it's better or do you feel like has
it changed anything of the way you move on stage
or not at all?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean sobriety has given me a lot
of I mean, it's just improved every area of my
life in ways that I mean I can't even express,
like it's just so much better because my mood overall
is better. So it's just a completely new life. And
(26:15):
it's so different from even just being in a quote
unquote occasional casual because I can't be you know, So
it's really, yeah, it's pretty incredible what sobriety has done.
But overall, I'm just a happier person, which is the
best outcome of it all.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I mean, that's the best thing.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
It really is, And you know, I think it's I've
watched it firsthand in my family and it definitely is
not easy, and it is a lifelong commitment of every
day choosing exactly what you said you have very strict
guardrails around how you choose to live and probably who
(26:58):
you choose to live it with, and shows up in
those spaces. Yeah, but I am I'd love to dive
into and I can't wait. Your queerness and however evolving
it has been, you know, for you over the years,
because you are one of the ogs. And what I'm
finding now in our community is people are so quick
(27:23):
to want to put you in a box, even though
that's what the same box we've been fighting so hard
to get away from in our community. It's like, how
do you label yourself? As you said, you were like
a lesbian, then you were you wanted to be bisexual,
and then you wanted to be queer. And it's just like,
I feel a lot of people in our community have
(27:46):
been coming out and shifting whatever identity that makes sense
for them, and they're taking a lot of hatred online.
And I'm curious of your thought on this because yours
has been ever changing and in the public eye for
a long time. What is your view on it? Because
I'm I think labels are so wonky and weird, and
(28:07):
also who fucking cares? Like does it really matter? Everything?
And everyone is on a spectrum, but uh, you know,
as someone who's lived it, what are your thoughts on it?
And how has you know your queerness affected your audience
and fans over time.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I think that people have a lot of.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Invested in identity and the labels, you know, because the
labels have a lot of baggage. You know. We we uh,
we want to know where people stand because we want
to know like who is going to be there for us,
so who is going to speak to us?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Or you know, all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
But I think with queerness it's tough because we can
evolve and shift over time and over relationships. And so
that's why I like the term queer because it actually
allows me to have the fullness of experience that I am.
But at the same time, like, I also understand when
(29:11):
people are like, like, there's a lot of hysteria around
like Jojo sewell, yes, I.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Think I didn't want to say it, but we're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
It's interesting because people were super like, you know, she's
come out and she's going to be like this lesbian champion.
And I think that we love this idea of like
somebody who is like strongly identified in being lesbian and strong,
and then when they have a relationship with a man,
(29:42):
it's shocking.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's like a cold.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Shower of like wait, wait, wait, you know, like but
I thought, you know, and so people have so much
invested in this idea of who somebody is. But you know,
I think generally sexuality is it's a spectrum, you know,
and it's going to move. So it's like it's going
to move along with you in life, and it's going
(30:05):
to change and grow with you. So it doesn't discount
the lesbian that she was before, you know. I think
it just expands the idea of who we all are.
There is no I don't think there's such a thing
as like gay betrayal.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I mean, unless you go full like.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Log cabin and then you want gayness to be outlawed.
Like that's sort of a different story. Like they're like,
it's not like these horrible stories of people who say
they've converted and now they see the truth like that
that's I don't think that's possible anyway. You know. I
don't think you can pray away the gay no matter
how hard you want it. Like it's I think it's
(30:47):
just understanding that we have more within us than we
realize and that also doesn't mean as much as we think. So,
but yeah, we do get very allied with people who
we believe we sort of take ownership, especially if artists,
(31:07):
because we want them to be our hours. Then we
want them to be our people. And I think they
still are, you know, they still can't be.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
It just it's hard, you know, like it's it's it's
hard to I feel for both parties, you know, I
feel for those the flex. Fletcher is another one. Oh yeah,
Fletcher is a.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Big, very big deal. I feel for Fletcher fans. So
I understand that feeling of betrayal because it was all
of this, these years of really writing about lesbian yearning.
And the the thing is, you can't mess with lesbian yearning.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
You really can't.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
When you tap into the sort of Katie line, constant
craving vibe, you can't deviate from that. So then when people,
you know, then she do sort of out the song
about a man and this kind of during Pride month also,
there's all this stuff that people feel very betrayed, but
at the same time, you know, doesn't discount all of
(32:12):
the stuff that she made you feel before. Exactly, it
shouldn't it shouldn't, you know, but it is.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I get it. I get both sides.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, you know, like I don't know how I would
feel like if chapel Ron suddenly had a trad wife
like like up like updo and kind of different look
like you know, that would be but that's yeah, yeah,
that would be strange. But at the same time, it's
like we don't have the option to take artists and say, well,
(32:42):
then you have to be this for the rest.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Of time, which also isn't fair. It's not fair because
we were evolving.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I mean, we're all evolving, all.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Evolving in real time, and the world is moving with
technology like so fucking fast, like we have no choice
to be set in our ways anymore, like life outside
of our box and realm, like everything is moving so quickly.
It feels like, oh it's a lot of times technology
is such a great thing. But it's that's why we're
(33:13):
all fucking stressed out all the time, you know. On
that kind of same topic, because queerness to you, you know,
while you were married and your identity like it has
been ever changing, just like we were we were talking about,
and what I loved is you know, I know you're
not married anymore, but you had an open marriage. So
(33:34):
I'm curious, like, over this time of love sex partnership,
how has that evolved? Because I know a lot of
my friends who are in open marriages, but like, no
one's willing to talk about it, And I'm like, why
are we not willing to talk about it? Because it's
taboo because it's not traditional, Like, how did you feel
(33:56):
in that?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
I didn't think it worked. That's why I didn't want
to talk about it when I was doing it. Oh,
I don't think. I inherently don't think it works. I
think because nobody is willing to put up the level
of communication that it actually requires. Like for you to
be in an open relationship or a polycule, you have
to do so much actual, honest work to make it viable.
(34:21):
Nobody I don't want to do that. There are people
in the world that may want to, I've not met
them yet. It's so tough to do, and it's so
it requires such a level of maturity and grace and
finesse that nobody wants to do. Like I already, as
(34:42):
a lesbian, don't want to process anyway. So I'm like
a bad lesbian because I hate processing I hate talking
about feelings. I hate going to couple's therapy. I hate
it so much, like I don't want to do it.
So I am in a really bad way when it
comes to like, you know, any kind of open relationship,
any kind of polycule, any kind of I believe it
(35:02):
only works with people are incredibly mature, serious, communicative, open
and working on it actively. And I don't think all
parties are.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
But aren't we like jealous beans at our core?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
And I'm just like I think you had maybe mentioned
that at some point and you were so real about it.
It's like I'm a jealous like fucking human at my core,
Like I what's mine as mine and it's sacred and
I don't want people touching it or like being like
you know what I mean? And yeah, it was jealousy.
(35:37):
The biggest thing that creeps in, Like how do you
not have jealousy in an open marriage or relationships?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
It's really impossible not to also having jealousy of you know,
the partner having jealousy about you, you know, like it's
a two way street, and so it's impossible to completely negotiate.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Out of that, you know. So now what I am
in I'm in.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Sort of a series of like situationships that are super
casual that have been going on for years, that are
not going anywhere, that are also they are like like
paused for years at a time as well. So my
situation now is super grown, I think, but also not.
It's not a polycule, it's not a relationship, it's not anything.
(36:26):
So I'm very comfortable there. I don't know if I
would ever be in another relationship that wasn't that because
now I'm so committed to my own serenity that i
don't feel like anything else is appropriate.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
But you know it's possible.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Are you like, are you open to dating? Are you dating?
What is your like? Where are you at now with
all of that?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yeah, I'm open to dating. I'm open to meeting new people.
I'm there, I'm out there, I am dating, But I'm also,
you know, not really willing to be in a committed relationship.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
It's really like an interesting thing as you continue to
you know, progress and age and understand yourself more. I
think as we were younger, it's like this weird timeline.
We're all trying to check all these boxes, and you know,
once you do this, you got to move to the
next step and do to that, and then once you
(37:24):
do all of it, and you lose yourself in the process,
you're like, what the fuck was I doing? Like I
don't even recognize the person I'm looking at in the
mirror anymore. And you get so much more comfortable being alone. Yeah,
I just like you know, I you know, a few
years ago, got divorced and had the kids, had the home,
had the life, and it's just not always the fairy
(37:47):
tale you think it is.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
No.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
No, Sometimes being in a relationship is the loneliest thing,
and that's I don't ever want to feel that again.
So I'm grateful now tended to be where I am,
where I have companionship when I want it. But I'm
also seeking that solitude which I really deserve.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I want.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I love that. And at your home, no pets, no nothing,
just like zen.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh no, I have many pets.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Ah tell me everything.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I have this stuff right here.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Oh my god, Hi, sweetie.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
That's Lucia. She's always on my body somewhere. She's always
just she's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Who needs a partner when you have Lucia.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I have a Lucia, Katerina. I have three cats who
are beautiful and hilarious and just my champions.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So I have a very full life.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
You know, I have many many animals, which is all
I need really.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
And I get the energy of just the stillness and
the ease, and I think maybe I hope that comes
with time because I hope to feel that as well.
But have you what have you really learned in this
healing process that took you years to actually like believe?
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I think that it's it's easier to attain than we think.
And then it just requires a kind like what are
what are the elements that are necessary for me? It's like, okay,
well I need to train my body to have peace
and silence so that it's like, you know, I have
(39:31):
a really strong meditation practice, which is very helpful. And
it's a practice because you're just practicing every day at
the same time to do this like exercise where you
have nothing and but silence and breathing and peace, because
you may need to recreate it at other points in
the day. So we practice this every day so we
(39:52):
can keep going back to a place of like peace,
so that if I'm out in the world and something's frustrating,
I can go back there mentally I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
And for someone who has lived such a full, beautiful
life as still at such an early age, what does
matter most to you right now during this time, because
it is a really interesting time in our life, and
I'm just curious, like, what does matter most to you
right now in this moment of.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
So much Yeah, there's so much uncertainty. I think what
really matters is friends, What really matters is art, What
really matters is animal friends. What matters is peace, you know,
and enduring peace within and trying to spread peace all around,
you know, and uh, you know what matters is is
(40:42):
really how we live in this moment. You know, now
is a good opportunity for political resistance. Right now is
a very good opportunity to talk about queerness, to talk
about feminism.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
To talk about equality.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
You know. So these are important things that important discussions
that are happening to take our world back from a
very destructive force. So, you know, it's a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
And I love that. I can only imagine that in
a time that feels like so much pain and grief,
making people laugh helps heal you in the process. Yeah, yeah,
And I think that's such a beautiful thing. Like what
I love so much about comedy and sports. There's no AI.
(41:33):
It is a live performance. Yeah, no one can take
that away from you. No one can necessarily recreate it
because it's a human interaction moment. It's just a fucking
moment to be so present and just drop everything else.
And how lucky are we that we get to provide
(41:53):
that for people?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So lucky.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
It's such a beautiful thing. So I'm so grateful for that.
So yeah, it's really it's really power.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
What are you still fighting for? Because you've been an advocate,
like for a very long time. You San Francisco is
like the hub of everything literally, especially you know when
you were born and raised there, Like, what are you
still fighting for? And what have you finally realized? You
just have to release.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
I have to release this idea that it's all going
to be fixed in one day. It's this idea that
there will be a point where everything is going to
be better. There will always be things that we need
to work on, and that's just because of society is
huge and there's a lot of things that are going
to be necessary to take care of but.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
What I still want to fight for is fairness.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Fairness for people, artis for people to live, and for
certain resources like you know, the gayteen suicide hotlines I
would like to fight for. You know, that's a very
small thing, but it means so much. The symbolic meaning of.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
That is so huge.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
So something like that, I think we really need to
uh recreate that for our community. And I know that's
happening with the Trevor Project and people like that fighting
for it. But you know, stuff like that, like we
need to fight for queer youth, That's always going to
be something that's incredibly important to me.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
I love that and I couldn't agree more. And it's
it's it's been hard to watch the vitriol of like
what people are willing to do to do to harm
their neighbor. Yeah, and it really comes from a place
of like fear of not.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Knowing and misunderstanding, you're the bravery of knowing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, I think that's a true, a true thing. I
think people in our community are so open just to
just say the things and live life and color that
it makes other people who do want to check the
boxes feel uncomfortable and feel shamed. That they can't do
the same.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Right, that's true.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
So it's it's a really interesting thing. And I always
ask this question to every guest, So I want to
ask you this before before we time is up and
we have to go. But what is the one moment
in your life, whether professionally or personally, that has really
split you wide open, that changed everything for you, that
(44:37):
really made you open your eyes up and be like wow.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I don't know. I mean, I think it's mostly.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
That it's still happening, like that there's still battles to
be one, there's still things that need to be changed,
you know, Like I've been going to like punk rock shows.
I used to go to rock against Reagan in the eighties,
like these like things where we were like still protesting
(45:07):
with all of our might. And then through the Bush era,
I was like protesting. So I got protested so much
I was disinvited to the Democratic National Convention in two
thousand and four, Like there was like I was like
protesting so much, Like I was so and that I
thought that we would be pasted it by now you
(45:28):
know that we and yet we're dealing with some of
the worst you know, fascism that I've ever seen. So
I think that it's the fact that it's not over,
that it continued, that's still the enormity of the battle,
but it still keeps you fighting, you know. So it
doesn't make me want to give up, but it's it's astonishing.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, I think that's the thing that we have to
continue to spread the message. It's I love that you
say that. It's you know, so much as moving and
so much is happening, and I think people are retreating
so much in fear and we need We've been here before,
maybe in a different form, but like rebellion and protech
(46:10):
like that is the layer and foundation our community has
been built on. And now is not the time to
roll over and like push this news button just say okay,
I'll wait till this four year term is up. It's like, no,
we cannot give into that type of power. Like we
have the ability to change it, and it should ignite
(46:32):
and excite us to be energized to fight like hell
and find solutions instead of just what I constantly feel
is people are burnt out and fatigued from all the
fucking shenanigans that we see in our algorithm and all
the antics we see on every social media site and
(46:53):
news site, and I'm like, that is that but that
is the game plan. That is the point, and what
are we going to do about it?
Speaker 2 (47:01):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (47:02):
So I love I love that about you and it's
as I could learn a lot from it as well.
And I want to be a legacy to me is
really leaving this this world better than I found it,
and it's it's not better than I found it. And
I'm hoping that we continue to like dig deep because
(47:26):
we got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
We did a lot of work to do. And the
last thing I'll ask just the light in the load
a little bit, what like queer shows right now? Are
you watching have you been watching anything? What is your
thoughts on like shitty television or reality television? Like are
you watching the Queer Ultimatum?
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Like Okay, mal should have stayed at home because she
was really going off.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
I was like actually, also actually.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
And Martika or Martique they I was like, this is
this is not a contest to whose grandparents died faster?
Like this is like awful, like and I think that.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Marie was like came and she was I'm gonna fight everybody.
I was like, so the ultimate and then also on
my algorithm, Vanessa is like.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Up there from last the first one to go huh.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
You know somebody's life can be ruined when you're on
reality television.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah. So yeah. My opinions are, Maurice should have stayed home.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
This is great.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I do kind of want to eat at.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Their food truck, though, I know right, I feel like
it would be busting.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
They would have good food.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Would you go on a queer show like that?
Speaker 2 (48:42):
I would if I could. Yeah, I mean yeah I would.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
But I don't not that one because I don't have
a partner. That's I would, you know, so it would
have to be a different way. Yeah I would, I
would definitely. I mean that would be interesting.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah, would that would be cool? We need more like
Queer Love Island.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I would love like a Queer Love Island, you know
where you're because. But I do love ultimating because he's
very specifically very lesbian.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yes, there's something so lesbian about it.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Serious question. I have to know. Thoughts on the host.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Well, the host is like, I wish it was Robbie Hoffman.
I think it should be Robbie Hoffman. I guess like
I just think it should be a couple.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
But also there was one part she chimed in and
she was like talking about her husband, and I go,
I was like.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Oh, like what I mean, I don't I think she
I don't really have an opinion about her, and like
I think she's fine or whatever. But I think that
they should have two and I think it should be
a I think it should be a two women. It
has to be women, has to be it should. Robbie
Hoffman and Gabby Windy.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Is a great power couple.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
They're super funny and super beautiful together. So like why
not you know, like to me, it's a lost opportunity
to have like a super cool, like very cool couple
or just mean a lesbian or just you know, somebody
who was in the life, like who gets it?
Speaker 1 (50:08):
So who can also contribute in a real way on
queer partnership because it is not the same.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
It's not the same, and it's two.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
I mean, you know, I want like Tig Natar, like
I want Tig, I want fortune. I want to do it,
you know, like any of us, we would love to,
but a couple would be ideal.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
So I do agree with you. I think they have
to contribute more in a way that is like insightful
because it's not the same and we I think these
if you're interacting that close, like that's the least we
could do. But I agree, I think Robbie and Gabby
would be absolutely it would be so cute, hilarious.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
Also, I think they should get away from the beach,
like we should just go to like Pump Springs. Let's
get rid of the get just like Ebby whatever. But
I have I love that show and yeah, totally, Oh my.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Gosh, Well you're you're an absolute dream. Before we go,
is there anything coming up, anything you are working on
that you want to tell the audience to come check
you out? Or anything on the list?
Speaker 3 (51:15):
My new tour, My new tour, it's called Choligarchy. It
starts in Provincetown on August first. I'll be traveling all
over the place and you can find out where if
I'm coming to you at Margaret Show dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Amazing, Well are you going to be in New York
because I'm going to be there.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yes, yes, I'll be there in November.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Really okay, well count me in.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
I'm going to get to perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
I can't wait. Well, thank you so much, Margaret for coming.
Thank you, it's been such a pleasure. Thanks for giving
us all your tea and insight, and what a beautiful
life you have just absolutely continued to live the fullest.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Thanks for being on Wide Open. Wide Open with Ashland
Harris is an iHeart women's sports production. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff,
(52:10):
and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive
producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our
editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm your host,
Ashlyn Harris.
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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