November 21, 2022 • 36 mins
Hilaria and Michelle are joined by actress, screenwriter, producer and fellow witch Michelle Stafford. The conversation around the cauldron is the stigmas that are thrust upon women when it comes to their journeys to motherhood. Whether it be surrogacy, adoption, IVF or becoming a stepmother, there are many paths a woman can take to become a mother. These three witches are sharing their own experiences with pregnancy, loss, IVF, surrogacy, and step children, in an effort to destigmatize all the ways we create our families.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Which is anonymous with the Laria Baldwin and Michelle Campbell
Mason and I Heart Radio podcast Welcome Back, which is
we are so excited this week. This week we have
a fantastic guest. She has been on The Young and
the Restless for sixteen years playing a character that causes
(00:22):
nothing but chaos and is a two time Emmy winner,
and she's here to talk about something extremely important and raw.
Michelle Stafford, thank you so much for joining our coven today.
Thank you for having me. I'm so I'm so so
so excited that you're here for so many millions of
reasons that we're gonna get into. But I'm curious, especially
(00:44):
because I've you know, I've done surgasy with one of
my children, and we'll get into that leader. But we've
been talking um on our podcast and everywhere about Jennifer
Anniston this week, right, and how everybody is, you know,
coming to to the realization that we poked at this
(01:04):
poor woman for so long on in decade, case decades,
about what she looks. Is she pregnant, is she not pregnant?
Why isn't she pregnant? Is she struggling getting pregnate? Does
she not want to have children and women we are,
so you know, we're considered to be breeders in many ways.
And this is me who has seven kids. But I
(01:25):
understand that the historical connection of woman is breeder. And
if you cannot breed in the traditional way, or you
do not want to breed in the traditional way, people
think that they have the right to talk about it.
And then for you to understand that you did surregacy
so not so long ago. Your children are young, but
(01:47):
things have changed even the past couple of years in
terms of how we talk about it. So and and
the technology has changed, the medicine has changed. So I
as much as you're comfortable opening up to us about it,
I'm so curious to hear about your experience and hear
about how you felt that that was accepted or not accepted.
(02:08):
You know, it's interesting because, um, the breeder thing does
hit a nerve with me. I it's sort of innate
in in I wish it weren't, but it seems to
be very very much a true statement. I was out
of a failed relationship and and I had this realization
that my God, I was waiting for him, like we
(02:30):
wait for them to ask us to marry them. You know,
we wait for them, we we wait for them to
be okay. He was a hockey player, right, and he
had the kind of a schedule where where it was,
you know, as being athletes a very very grueling kind
of life, especially for the wives or the girlfriends. And
(02:54):
uh so, so anyway, I got out of that relationship
and it was, you know, like I guess three years,
two and a half years, and I thought, you know,
I'm thirty eight, thirty nine. I have waited again for
someone to choose me. And so I wanted to have children.
I thought, okay, I'll do it on my own. I
(03:14):
started with adoption. It went. It was abysmal for me.
It was completely abysmal experience for me. It's not for others,
but it was for me. And you know, then I
just thought, how hard could this be? I mean, I'll
just get sperm spinded on the street a little turkey beaster,
were good, Yeah, hard, it's not it's herm. I'll do
(03:38):
it on my own, right, and um, and then that
it was. It was horrendous. I had a lot of
physical issues. Long story short, I did IVF, you know,
and um, it just brought me to the point where
I had to visaragate I really and especially at that time,
oh my gosh. I mean, just the shame that I
(04:00):
could cry right now. I was just like, I must
be the biggest loser on the planet. Now, I know
this is all bullshit, right, And as a woman, you
you tell your friend no, don't think that about you,
but I did. It just is what it was. And um,
I mean the whole time, I just felt like a loser.
I'm like, I gotta essentially, it's not what you're doing.
(04:22):
But I felt like, even with adoption, I gotta buy
this girl's baby, Like I can't. I'm such a loser.
I can't make this happen because all you're told and
you must understand this. I think that somebody who hasn't
gone through it might be judging me, and it's okay,
judge me. I don't care. But um, but it's you're
just constantly told you're old and there's a magic pregnancy. Yeah.
(04:46):
I just felt like this old, dried up, barren vagina.
I mean, let's just can I just talk about sitting
in that doctor said, since you boasted IVF, I assume
you did. Having a saragat obviously I don't know. Oh yeah,
but I remember sitting in and I would come from
work and I'd be all dolled up and I'd sit
(05:06):
in the office and and it was couples and I
could just see like the women were jack because I
was so jacked doing this. They're jacked. Is you know
you're amping up those hormones, you're making all those eggs.
I mean, you are like bursting estrogen. And the man,
I just remember all the men were like this, and
(05:28):
nurse one time opened up the thing and said, Mr Smith,
we're going to need a sample. I know, I know,
Oh my god, He's OK. And it's the most and
the most embarrassing thing. And they get the sample on
the same day that you go in. I guess at
least that's the way we did it. You go in
for the averageable. And so I'm like literally in surgery
(05:51):
and Alec is having to go to something really awkward room.
It was like they call that like a fresh collection,
just so it's profession your amazing podcast just into the gutter. No, no,
this is this is the best because nobody talks about this.
(06:12):
And I remember the pain. I mean those it was like,
what for for me, it was like ten days of
injections um, which I don't know how. I don't know
what it was like as again because every single year
hopefully they're getting better at it, but these injections, it
usually averages around two weeks and then they do like
the one that you have to then go in the
next day or something like that, the trigger shot, I
(06:34):
think they call it. And I just remember, I mean
for me who's had in had my my body had
so many kids as well, this weird sensation of your
ovaries like as you call jacked, like just huge, is
such an odd feeling that with all the odd feelings
that have come with all my my pregnancies and the
(06:55):
ones that I've lost in everything, it's awful feeling. It's
an awful offul So one of the things that people
will say that when you do IBF is other than
oh my gosh, how shameful she can't have babies on
her own, right, they shame us for doing it. But
then also you know the sort of Gussie route that
they you know, basically say oh that's that's the easy
(07:16):
way to have babies, and anyone who's done IVF agritvite
any of it. It is not easy. It is painful. Yeah,
that's an understatement the whole thing. I mean, I just
I've never had someone say that to me. By the way,
Oh that you did. You were had a a surrogate,
that was easy. Um, I get other weird stuff, you know. Um.
(07:39):
And I even forget what it is because I usually
think that those people are idiots who judge. Um. But
but surrogacy, what you were saying, it is um it
wise early. I mean, oh god, I just remember when
my daughter was born in two thousand and nine, they
didn't have a room for me. I'm not the insured,
(08:01):
even though I was paying out a pocket for the insurance, right,
and so my beautiful surrogate, Noel, who would I'm still
I still know both my surrogates, um and she wouldn't
mind me saying her name, but she um got the room.
And then they put me in the hallway, so I
(08:21):
was essentially with my kid in the hallway. Ah. And
then at the time, because the way it is, at
least in California is at six months to station. Um,
you go in front of a judge. Now they do
it all with paperwork, but you go in front of
a judge and he says, Okay, you were not the
mother of this baby. Um to the surrogate, you are
(08:42):
the mother of this baby, but prior to that, she
is considered in the eyes of a lot of the
mother of the baby. And and I remember that my judge,
and this is probably the depth of pathos that I felt.
The judge did not because it's his opinion. The judge's
opinion because there's no law. So he had everyone who
(09:04):
was a single parent, for a same sex parent or
transgender parent. He had everyone who was in that basically
adopt their own kid, their own biological kid. And I remember,
I mean, having already gone through everything that I went through,
(09:24):
which is more than any other mother. I I know,
like I clearly wanted this. This is why I cried.
I'm so sorry. But um so I sat there and
and I had to basically pitch myself and I had
to get a lawyer to pitch myself to the judge.
It was I mean, listen, way worse things can happen
(09:46):
in the world in your life, and we've seen them,
and I've seen I've experienced other things. After this, I
remember that moment of being pitched to the lawyer to
the judge their eyeways, Um a legitimate and he looked
at me. Yeah, I looked at me, and he goes, now,
(10:07):
why do you think you would be a good mother?
All I wanted to do about yourself all I wanted
to say, he's not a judge here anymore. He retired. Well,
but it's it's humiliating. And that's the thing, is that
again having been able to do both both sides of it, Um.
(10:29):
In terms of these two sides, I mean, there's many
different ways to become a parent, UM, but I don't
have a difference between my daughter that was born via
surrogacy and my six other children that I carried. There's
no difference. And people what people assume that I'm less
of a mom, that she's less of my daughter. And
(10:50):
and you know, I mean, just like what you just
you know, shared with us. If somebody questioning your authenticity
as your child's mom, and you know, I mean, we
were we were looking through some some articles that were
written about my daughter and me, UM when she was
born in February, and they were really mean. They're really,
(11:13):
really really mean, and you just look and you think
they're written by women. By the way other women are
writing them, and they're basically putting me as this outcasted person,
sort of saying like, oh my god, she did that.
And not only did she do that, but she has
kids on her own, and they don't know my story
because I have yet to share with people. And one
(11:36):
of the reasons I didn't share it with people was
because they were not very nice about it, you know.
And so it's but the feeling it made me so sad,
the feeling of judgment and and on such innocence. I mean,
the bond between parent and child is so beautiful, and
she is just as attached to me as all the
(11:57):
other ones. She is just and I think, you know
what if I see if she sees years old, if
she sees one of these reporters that took the time
to write about her validity not just as part of
the family, but also her validity in terms of existing,
they're questioning whether I should have done that, which therefore
is questioning whether she should that she should exist. I
(12:20):
look at that, and I think, what if she runs
into you and you think, you know what, I wrote
something that you shouldn't be here. I mean, listen, I
just gotta sit with kind of speechless. Yea, it is horrendous.
She's used as a case study for really being you know,
the unattainable super mom in this instance, and it's such
(12:42):
an unfair projection because there's so many elements that go
into what the public perceives, and there's so many fake
things that go on to social media. Right, we put
up our most beautiful moments of our life. But Hilaria
shows her whole life all the time. But this myopic
view that this particular reporter took really just zoomed in
on this one thing, saying the rest of it is irrelevant,
(13:03):
and this part of her life is too shiny, and
it makes others feel bad and they can't stop watching it.
But that's her fault, which which I wonder about. I
wonder about because this was February, um and in you know,
two thousand to public miscarriages that I was very open
about and I cried about that. Then people, you know,
(13:26):
most people were so wonderful and supportive and shared their
own experiences because infertility is very, very common unfortunately. UM.
So I'd love to take a little time to talk
about surrogacy. I love that you are, you know, open
with um the name of your surrogate. I keep mind
private for for her well, because it right, no no
(13:48):
exactly and that's no no, and I get that. And
I'm not just for you guys listening. I'm not going
to say the name of my surrogate because that is
not what she wants. UM. But I also have this
amazing relationship. We talked like with text at least almost
every single day, and we're so close, and we go
through such an amazing um. We we went through such
(14:11):
amazing transformations together, um. And so I'd love to talk
a little bit about what the surrogacy experience was for you.
I actually texted her last night and asked her some
things that she would like to share. UM, just because
hearing from a surrogate actually made me want to go
through with the process, whereas what I thought surrogacy was
(14:32):
going to be made me not want to do it.
I worked very very hard to not have a surrogate,
and I was told my very by my very first
IVF doctor UM that it would I would probably have
to do it, and I worked really really hard. I
(14:55):
mean that to me was the ultimate loserdom um. At
the time. Of course, I don't have those thoughts now.
But at the time, I thought, I'm gonna have to
buy somebody's uterus, would you know, Like I'm I said
this in the most crude way, because that's how I
felt at the time, unfiltered, raw emotions. Nobody's gonna be yeah, yeah,
commutely and um, you know, I called an agency, and
(15:18):
thank goodness for this woman at this agency that I used,
because she had so I mean, but by the time
you go to get a surrogate, you're pretty much toast,
like you've tried everything, right, um, and you go okay, so, um,
you know, I had my embryos frozen and because you know,
my doctor kep on telling me I was old and
(15:38):
I better get those eggs out of there. Because she
started to go into labor very early, right, and so
she was in and out of the hospital and she lived,
you know, about an you know, an hour flight from me,
and man, I mean, we had people who worked with
the hospital who didn't even get it and they would
come in and the amount of women who would go
(16:01):
is it weird carrying a white woman's baby. Now, I
had that added factor of her being you know, a
different color than me, and the amount of people saying
that to her, or we would be somewhere at the
mall together and they'd go, oh, your baby, and she goes, oh,
well it's hers. I'm carrying it for her, and they'd
be like, oh, oh oh, not instant, And I just figured,
(16:24):
you know, it's sort of I compared it to uncomfortable
Thanksgivings with family, you know, like you know when you
have the creepy uncle Charlie in the corner and you're
trying to avoid them at Thanksgiving. I mean, that was
just the whole experience, but nobody when I finally talked
about it, and you know, I'm on a soap. I
I don't have the same notoriety as you do. I
(16:47):
I you know, people felt bad for me. I think
they because it was really um horrendous and my whole journey,
uh was and so many people didn't know about it,
and so if they if they felt weird, it was
behind my back and it wasn't to my face. But
I I always didn't. You know. There's also this I
(17:08):
don't know if you experience this, but but uh um,
my surrogate gained only five pounds during gestation with Natalia,
so of course I was freaking out I was she
essentially lost body weight right now. And it's that I
(17:29):
only bring that up because it's the lack of control
you have over something that is your Like that really
really screwed in my mind, Like and I had to
talk myself off the ledge. I didn't have a husband,
I was doing this with. UM. I had family members
and really good friends. UM, but it was it was
(17:51):
really hard, and no one understood it because I didn't
know anyone as a single woman who was doing this. UM.
Now more people are doing it, UM, but it was
really really hard, you know. It was like, um, something
that only you know about that no one, no one
can experience you. Well, it's funny, I mean having I
(18:12):
definitely feel the giving up control, although I have to
say that also when you carry a baby, you're giving
up control to which which it's It's when I was
pregnant with Carmen and I was getting like the these
crazy implantation cramps, and I literally thought that I was
(18:32):
going to start bleeding every single time I got them,
and so I'd run to the bathroom and I was
like not bleeding. I'm like, how is it possible that
you feel these period like cramps and it's and there's
no blood. What is going on? So I called my
mother and I was like, I hate this, so this
is unfair, Like I want to write a strongly worded
letter to whoever created this in nature. And She's like, Larry,
(18:52):
I get ready for an entire lifetime of not being
able to control your children. And I was like, oh
my god, got one like six weeks and what have
I signed up? Four? I don't know if I'm built
for this. But you know, when I had I had
had some chemical pregnancies UM scattered until you know, baby
(19:13):
number four, and then I got pregnant. UM. I got
pregnant naturally in the spring of twenty nineteen, so before
my my fourth kid was one, because I've had them
all back to back and the heartbeat was wrong. Was
not good the from the moment that we heard it
(19:35):
and I had you know, I'm I'm a a capital corners.
I've said before, I'm I'm pretty stoic in some ways.
So I was like, Okay, you know, I haven't had
a miscarriage after heartbeat, so I you know, I've had
four kids. They say one in five children ends in miscarriage,
So this is it. This is it um I was.
I was also told that I was old because then
(19:55):
I was thirty five, you know, because I just turned
in January, and this was in the spring, so I
thirty five and change. And I basically we we waited
until the heartbeat stopped, which was probably about like nine
plus weeks. So I went from week six to week nine,
going you know, every few days or so and watching
(20:16):
the heartbeak get slower and slower and slower. I was
very open about it actually when on the Today Show
and I talked about it, because one of the things
that frustrates me from not not just being in the
public eye, but just being in the communities that we
don't often talk about things as they're going on, and
that's sometimes when we need to support the most, we
just kind of close it off. And so I, you know,
(20:37):
I was very open about that I had a d
n C to to remove the pregnancy, and then I
decided for many different reasons, that I was going to
try i V for the first time. And I when
we talked about how that's quite a thing that egg
retrieval sensations that I'd never felt before, um, just in
(20:58):
terms of the heaviness in my in my ovaries and
and we we were successful with it. And then I
started that entire summer of nineteen, I was taking hormones
and doing the whole preparation that you know, we all
know here that is to to um transfer the embryo.
(21:20):
And then at the late summer, I transferred the embryo
and I'm doing my own shots. I learned to do
it in my back because like, can you guys just
like like it's empowering moment of levity of imagining Alec
Baldwin trying to shove a needle in my butt. I
think that would have been I've definitely and we've got
a lot together. That would have been the end of
our relationship, wrest wore. But it was intense then I, um,
(21:44):
you know with the heartbeat, or we know, right before
the heartbeat, I started having this crazy, crazy cramping and
a lot of bleeding. And this was like right before
you could find that see the heartbeat, and we were
sure that was miscarring. We're sure, And and I was thinking,
I was like, I've come so far, you know, all
(22:05):
of the shots, all of the pills, all the suppositories,
the patches, you know, my bruised but my bruised belly. Um.
And then then this happened. I had this miraculous thing
where I bled for two days. It was very physically painful.
And they told me blood with pain isn't good. Um,
so it's not good news. And then I went and
there was a heartbeat and I was like, oh my god,
(22:28):
there's a heartbeat. It was so excited, and they said,
you know what, it's just there's a like a cot
and that was what it was. So it's gonna be okay. Then, um,
I you know, I announced. I decided also to be like,
you know what, fun this whole thing that you have
to wait till your three months. When I'm feeling sick
and I'm feeling this and I'm feeling that, I'm just
gonna tell everybody because that's my my my thing now
(22:50):
is just tell everybody everything so everybody can leave me
alone to be open and show, you know, the reality
of it. Which, now, where do we see that? This
New York Times reporter missed, you know, missed the point right, um?
And she um. I told my and my daughter and
it was a girl. And so I said to my daughter,
I said, you're gonna get your sister we have all
our boys, and we love our boys, and I'm such
(23:10):
a boy mom. But she really wanted another sister. She's
an older sister. And and then I went for my
sixteen week appointment and um, this is where I'm gonna
start to cry. I'm laying there and I had this
weird feeling because I couldn't feel the baby. And I
can usually feel the baby very early on. I couldn't
with my first bootm other was I can feel super
(23:31):
early on where people tell me that I'm making it up,
and I promise you I'm not. And and I she
puts the wand on my belly and the baby's not moving.
She was dead at six did you say? Sixteen weeks?
And um, I started to scream. I called Alec was
on a bus, who was on a public bus at
(23:52):
the time. Um, and I just I just didn't know
what to do. They you know, they they said it
was late in the day. I wiped the cream off
my belly. I go and I had to talk to
the doctor because this was the the tech of them
very close with you know, she's she's scandal all my babies.
And I went talk to the doctor and he told
me again while you're old. But just know that you
(24:14):
didn't do anything wrong. They always wanted to don't you
didn't do anything wrong, but but you are old, and wow,
what bad lucky had two miscarriages in a row and
this one with with IVF you know, you would think.
And then I walked like many many, many, many many
blocks and I just was crying and walking many blocks.
I get home and I needed to tell people right
away that was my feeling because I couldn't handle people
(24:35):
congratulating me, and people write me all the time congratulating me.
As I told Carmen, I told my daughter, who was
so I mean, I hope that it wasn't throwing too
much on her plate, but she had just know the truth,
and she was asking me, how is my sister? Wasn't me?
They were pictures of my sister, And I took the
video that I put on my social media of me crying,
and yes, it was, you know, very emotional, but it
(24:58):
is what it is. And I just wanted people to
know that I couldn't. I didn't want them to say
I'm so happy for you, because I was not happy.
And I just quite cried for I could not believe
how many tears can come out of you and and
then you fall asleep and then you wake up and
you remember that it's true. And I had a belly um,
(25:21):
and then so I had to get something called a
d and E, which basically your boy feels like you
had a baby afterwards. So my milk came in at
my post partum hair loss and um, anyway I did.
I did that. Now fast forward to a month and
a half later, I get pregnant naturally, and um, why
(25:42):
am I still crying? Because you know, but it was
very much. It was very confusing. And then I had this.
I had this embryo, this this other embryo, and I said,
I feel I can't have any more kids. Ha ha ha.
Now it's another one when obviously I have no idea,
I have no crystal ball, but I can't have another
and I my body can't handle anymore. I'm gonna have
(26:03):
this baby. What am I going to do with this embryo?
And I feel like if I put her inside of me,
it's going to be a death sentence. I was sure
that the same thing would happen that you know, you
lose control what we were talking about before that I
was gonna put it. And I was going to try
to house her just like a house the babies that
I can see naturally and um, and I was going
(26:24):
to kill her basically and um because women, we put
so much weight on our on our ability to bring life,
and then we take all of the responsibility on us.
And so I um. Based. I met with a friend
who had done surrogacy and um, and they had tried
very hard to have have kids. And they she connected
(26:46):
me with the woman who who carried her children, who
then connected me to this whole amazing world. And I
was very I'm not sure about it. I was very
not sure. Um. But and I eventually um, I met
an amazing woman who is our surrogate and um, and
they said to me, Um, this is what surrogacy is like.
(27:10):
You have your grandmother's recipe of your cake, You make
your cake, your oven is either occupied or it's not working.
As you go to your neighbor's house, and neighbor cloks
the cake for you, and then the neighbor gives the
cake back to you because it's your cake, it's not
your neighbor's cake. And that I mean, it's such a
silly thing, but it made so It was made a
(27:33):
really good point because I was asking, how are you
going to feel about, you know, carrying a baby and
then giving baby. I I don't think I could do that.
I don't think I could do that. But you realize
that the women that do this are angels. They're like
they are like the nurses in the hospital that just
come and hold onto you and hold onto your baby.
(27:55):
And you know, my, my, um my, my surrogate says,
and this is what she does, this is this is
she loves it. She's passionate about it. She says, I
get to make families for a living. I get to
make love, and in a different way of making love,
I like you to make this entire loving relationship for you.
(28:17):
And I thought that it's just she she is so
inspiring to me. And you know, I mean, had the
people who judged me so much if they knew all
of the reasons why. And that's the whole thing is
that you shouldn't have to just don't don't judge about
things that you don't know about. And how my Marielu,
who is the one born the surrogacy, her her story
(28:41):
starts with you know the loss that I had, you know,
and and that her coming here. There is a connection
between those two souls. But you know, I think this
show is all about right like sisterhood, right like how
it takes the village and women being there for each other. Obviously,
Sir I guests as a modern you know, gift to us,
(29:03):
and this was not an option to generations passed. But
at the same time, this is another ability for women
to show up and hold space and really help one another.
Granted it is a paid job, unless you know, there
are people that just volunteered to do it for others,
but it is a beautiful, beautiful thing, and just honoring
that and honoring them and seeing them as like the
beautiful givers they are for providing such an amazing service
(29:27):
that so many of us don't understand. You know, we
look at the numbers here, like at least like like
the most conclusive stats on infertility in the US, like
more than thirty five percent of Americans have a very
hard time conceiving. It takes years. It takes almost eight
cycles of IVF on average for a woman to get pregnant.
(29:47):
So there's so much that goes into it. It's such
a factory, it's such a business it's very dehumanizing, very demoralizing,
because you are just a part of this machine too
to make a baby, and you don't get the opportunity
to cry like like you do, to have that moment,
because they're just pushing you through the machine to the end, right,
and the process is daunting. I've done it three times
(30:10):
and I have no children. You know, It's just it
is painful, and every part of your body and your
mind changes during the process, and there really isn't an outlet.
So I think to something we should talk about when
we are concluding this conversation is, you know, real support
for women that are going through this, and how we
can kind of put on our website, like how you
(30:31):
can out find some outreach networks in which you can
have these conversations so you don't feel alone because a
huge amount of the population goes through this. And I
think a lot of women ascribe their validity as a
woman to the motherhood paradigm, being able to be a mother,
and that is so harrowing because that's not that's not
(30:53):
defining of who you are, your character, what you can
offer to the world. It's a beautiful thing. It's a
beautiful bonus but we're also vulnerable to it. I know,
since I still really want children and don't have them.
I walk around I live, you know, in a very
baby centric neighborhood in New York, and there have been
days or I just walked by all these little play
groups and start crying. You just it's so deeply ingrained
(31:15):
in us, and we don't get to talk about how
much it hurts because you're never on the right side
of it, it seems. And I'm fortunate to be a
step parent as well, but there is the biological tied
to parenting where that doesn't count, right, and so there's
a judgment maybe in that to some people. That are
people's perception, you know, well, I I just want everybody
(31:38):
at home toil what you mean to totally and a
lack of control that you have, and like there's all
they're all the gray areas that you cannot cross there,
so there's red tape everywhere, and um, it's such a
beautiful experience as well, and such an honor to be
able to be there for children and also provide them
at that outlet that is also a friend and not
just a parent, because there is a different level of
(32:00):
authority that comes with that in some dynamics. But yeah,
it's you know, you always have to clarify because then
someone thinks you're being you know, dishonest, like, oh, I
have kids, I have step kids, Like, oh right, you
know it's different and that's hard to Oh yeah, that's
who does It's so rede Yeah, the judgment. But we're
(32:25):
gonna we're gonna um, We're gonna wrap soon. But I
think the one of the takeaways from here is people
are going through something that you don't know anything about.
There's there's that quote that I completely just butchered right now,
but we all know which one it is. And you know,
being a parent or not being a parent, or trying
(32:47):
to be a parent and having it not work out.
It's not a competition. It's not a competition. This isn't
this person against this person against that person. It is
purely the love that I have. Am I giving it
to another being? Am I learning to give it to myself?
Am I giving it to a partner? Am I giving
it out to the world and taking care of everybody?
(33:09):
Or being a positive force rather than a negative force
out there? And I mean, I'm I'm really grateful that
you came on and talked about this because it gave
me an opportunity to to speak about my experience for
the first time. The other things, we put such weight
into physical suffering for women and and motherhood, and we think, oh,
(33:30):
if you didn't physically suffer to have this child in
the way that I think physical suffering is. Therefore, we
we questioned it and we did. Yes, yes, absolutely so
(33:53):
we do. We do something on which is anonymous called uh,
what are we coming in your coven? And um, which
means basically, just like a favorite thing that we share,
so like a product or a book or an experience
or yeah, something we love that we're not really connected
to that inspiring us. Oh yeah, no, I do have something.
(34:18):
I thought, okay, I'll do it because it's not connected.
There are things that I'm connected to. But this is
really weird to see on my show. If I don't
have a little color, I can look you know these Yeah,
oh yeah, right time. Yeah, I can come off on
my show because there's a lot of blue in our
lighting to look at these. These are like tantels. And
I do this on my face and it doesn't make
(34:40):
me break out. I do it on my face and
I just do it on my arms and they're little
tantels and they're so easy. Oh, I love that. That's
a good one. It's so good. And mine is so
basic and weird. But um Larya and I have a
very close friend who also does our hair, and it's
been a really long time since I've seen him, and
I've just been for I to like keep it together
(35:01):
and make my hair look decent lyly and like messy
and witchy and not so like styled anyway, going through
a renaissance over here. So it's these little silky hair
ties where I can like tie them up and it
gets all like scrunchy and mermaidy and doesn't ever leave
like a dent. It's that silk brand by who I
guess I tore, you know. The brand is called Silk
and they're like these little silk scrunchy things. The tide
(35:23):
fell off. It usually just says silk on it. But
so good. Do you have to do it like a
like a bun rather than just a ponytail in order
to not so, I don't want to work out, And
I like spray, like wave wave spray, and then they
like twist it and then like put it over the
back and then it comes out pretty decent. I don't know.
I love that you guys went I'll do I'll do
mine now too. So mine is ilia is this really
(35:45):
like wide lipstick, but you can actually also use it
for your cheeks. I'm super um crazy about the preservatives
that I put on my skin because they do make
me break out. Um. This color is called at last
and and and I like it because you can put
it on your lips, you can put it on your
cheeks and blend it in. I'm not, you know, a
huge I'm not a huge makeup where so it's just
(36:09):
getting a little something unless somebody else is doing my makeup,
and then then I'm happy to put it on. Hi, Michelle,
thank you so much for being with us. This was
for me a completely life changing conversation to be able
to open up in this way. I love that you did.
I feel really honored that you trusted me enough to
do that, And thank you for having me, both of you.
(36:30):
Thank you for your candor and making this conversation, which
can be so difficult, really open and safe. And also
we can find some light in it because there is
some comedy and how hard we have to fight some
of the battles to you know, to get where we
want to get with being a mother. Thank you both.
Thank you
Which is anonymous with the Laria Baldwin and Michelle Campbell
Mason and I Heart Radio podcast Welcome Back, which is
we are so excited this week. This week we have
a fantastic guest. She has been on The Young and
the Restless for sixteen years playing a character that causes
(00:22):
nothing but chaos and is a two time Emmy winner,
and she's here to talk about something extremely important and raw.
Michelle Stafford, thank you so much for joining our coven today.
Thank you for having me. I'm so I'm so so
so excited that you're here for so many millions of
reasons that we're gonna get into. But I'm curious, especially
(00:44):
because I've you know, I've done surgasy with one of
my children, and we'll get into that leader. But we've
been talking um on our podcast and everywhere about Jennifer
Anniston this week, right, and how everybody is, you know,
coming to to the realization that we poked at this
(01:04):
poor woman for so long on in decade, case decades,
about what she looks. Is she pregnant, is she not pregnant?
Why isn't she pregnant? Is she struggling getting pregnate? Does
she not want to have children and women we are,
so you know, we're considered to be breeders in many ways.
And this is me who has seven kids. But I
(01:25):
understand that the historical connection of woman is breeder. And
if you cannot breed in the traditional way, or you
do not want to breed in the traditional way, people
think that they have the right to talk about it.
And then for you to understand that you did surregacy
so not so long ago. Your children are young, but
(01:47):
things have changed even the past couple of years in
terms of how we talk about it. So and and
the technology has changed, the medicine has changed. So I
as much as you're comfortable opening up to us about it,
I'm so curious to hear about your experience and hear
about how you felt that that was accepted or not accepted.
(02:08):
You know, it's interesting because, um, the breeder thing does
hit a nerve with me. I it's sort of innate
in in I wish it weren't, but it seems to
be very very much a true statement. I was out
of a failed relationship and and I had this realization
that my God, I was waiting for him, like we
(02:30):
wait for them to ask us to marry them. You know,
we wait for them, we we wait for them to
be okay. He was a hockey player, right, and he
had the kind of a schedule where where it was,
you know, as being athletes a very very grueling kind
of life, especially for the wives or the girlfriends. And
(02:54):
uh so, so anyway, I got out of that relationship
and it was, you know, like I guess three years,
two and a half years, and I thought, you know,
I'm thirty eight, thirty nine. I have waited again for
someone to choose me. And so I wanted to have children.
I thought, okay, I'll do it on my own. I
(03:14):
started with adoption. It went. It was abysmal for me.
It was completely abysmal experience for me. It's not for others,
but it was for me. And you know, then I
just thought, how hard could this be? I mean, I'll
just get sperm spinded on the street a little turkey beaster,
were good, Yeah, hard, it's not it's herm. I'll do
(03:38):
it on my own, right, and um, and then that
it was. It was horrendous. I had a lot of
physical issues. Long story short, I did IVF, you know,
and um, it just brought me to the point where
I had to visaragate I really and especially at that time,
oh my gosh. I mean, just the shame that I
(04:00):
could cry right now. I was just like, I must
be the biggest loser on the planet. Now, I know
this is all bullshit, right, And as a woman, you
you tell your friend no, don't think that about you,
but I did. It just is what it was. And um,
I mean the whole time, I just felt like a loser.
I'm like, I gotta essentially, it's not what you're doing.
(04:22):
But I felt like, even with adoption, I gotta buy
this girl's baby, Like I can't. I'm such a loser.
I can't make this happen because all you're told and
you must understand this. I think that somebody who hasn't
gone through it might be judging me, and it's okay,
judge me. I don't care. But um, but it's you're
just constantly told you're old and there's a magic pregnancy. Yeah.
(04:46):
I just felt like this old, dried up, barren vagina.
I mean, let's just can I just talk about sitting
in that doctor said, since you boasted IVF, I assume
you did. Having a saragat obviously I don't know. Oh yeah,
but I remember sitting in and I would come from
work and I'd be all dolled up and I'd sit
(05:06):
in the office and and it was couples and I
could just see like the women were jack because I
was so jacked doing this. They're jacked. Is you know
you're amping up those hormones, you're making all those eggs.
I mean, you are like bursting estrogen. And the man,
I just remember all the men were like this, and
(05:28):
nurse one time opened up the thing and said, Mr Smith,
we're going to need a sample. I know, I know,
Oh my god, He's OK. And it's the most and
the most embarrassing thing. And they get the sample on
the same day that you go in. I guess at
least that's the way we did it. You go in
for the averageable. And so I'm like literally in surgery
(05:51):
and Alec is having to go to something really awkward room.
It was like they call that like a fresh collection,
just so it's profession your amazing podcast just into the gutter. No, no,
this is this is the best because nobody talks about this.
(06:12):
And I remember the pain. I mean those it was like,
what for for me, it was like ten days of
injections um, which I don't know how. I don't know
what it was like as again because every single year
hopefully they're getting better at it, but these injections, it
usually averages around two weeks and then they do like
the one that you have to then go in the
next day or something like that, the trigger shot, I
(06:34):
think they call it. And I just remember, I mean
for me who's had in had my my body had
so many kids as well, this weird sensation of your
ovaries like as you call jacked, like just huge, is
such an odd feeling that with all the odd feelings
that have come with all my my pregnancies and the
(06:55):
ones that I've lost in everything, it's awful feeling. It's
an awful offul So one of the things that people
will say that when you do IBF is other than
oh my gosh, how shameful she can't have babies on
her own, right, they shame us for doing it. But
then also you know the sort of Gussie route that
they you know, basically say oh that's that's the easy
(07:16):
way to have babies, and anyone who's done IVF agritvite
any of it. It is not easy. It is painful. Yeah,
that's an understatement the whole thing. I mean, I just
I've never had someone say that to me. By the way,
Oh that you did. You were had a a surrogate,
that was easy. Um, I get other weird stuff, you know. Um.
(07:39):
And I even forget what it is because I usually
think that those people are idiots who judge. Um. But
but surrogacy, what you were saying, it is um it
wise early. I mean, oh god, I just remember when
my daughter was born in two thousand and nine, they
didn't have a room for me. I'm not the insured,
(08:01):
even though I was paying out a pocket for the insurance, right,
and so my beautiful surrogate, Noel, who would I'm still
I still know both my surrogates, um and she wouldn't
mind me saying her name, but she um got the room.
And then they put me in the hallway, so I
(08:21):
was essentially with my kid in the hallway. Ah. And
then at the time, because the way it is, at
least in California is at six months to station. Um,
you go in front of a judge. Now they do
it all with paperwork, but you go in front of
a judge and he says, Okay, you were not the
mother of this baby. Um to the surrogate, you are
(08:42):
the mother of this baby, but prior to that, she
is considered in the eyes of a lot of the
mother of the baby. And and I remember that my judge,
and this is probably the depth of pathos that I felt.
The judge did not because it's his opinion. The judge's
opinion because there's no law. So he had everyone who
(09:04):
was a single parent, for a same sex parent or
transgender parent. He had everyone who was in that basically
adopt their own kid, their own biological kid. And I remember,
I mean, having already gone through everything that I went through,
(09:24):
which is more than any other mother. I I know,
like I clearly wanted this. This is why I cried.
I'm so sorry. But um so I sat there and
and I had to basically pitch myself and I had
to get a lawyer to pitch myself to the judge.
It was I mean, listen, way worse things can happen
(09:46):
in the world in your life, and we've seen them,
and I've seen I've experienced other things. After this, I
remember that moment of being pitched to the lawyer to
the judge their eyeways, Um a legitimate and he looked
at me. Yeah, I looked at me, and he goes, now,
(10:07):
why do you think you would be a good mother?
All I wanted to do about yourself all I wanted
to say, he's not a judge here anymore. He retired. Well,
but it's it's humiliating. And that's the thing, is that
again having been able to do both both sides of it, Um.
(10:29):
In terms of these two sides, I mean, there's many
different ways to become a parent, UM, but I don't
have a difference between my daughter that was born via
surrogacy and my six other children that I carried. There's
no difference. And people what people assume that I'm less
of a mom, that she's less of my daughter. And
(10:50):
and you know, I mean, just like what you just
you know, shared with us. If somebody questioning your authenticity
as your child's mom, and you know, I mean, we
were we were looking through some some articles that were
written about my daughter and me, UM when she was
born in February, and they were really mean. They're really,
(11:13):
really really mean, and you just look and you think
they're written by women. By the way other women are
writing them, and they're basically putting me as this outcasted person,
sort of saying like, oh my god, she did that.
And not only did she do that, but she has
kids on her own, and they don't know my story
because I have yet to share with people. And one
(11:36):
of the reasons I didn't share it with people was
because they were not very nice about it, you know.
And so it's but the feeling it made me so sad,
the feeling of judgment and and on such innocence. I mean,
the bond between parent and child is so beautiful, and
she is just as attached to me as all the
(11:57):
other ones. She is just and I think, you know
what if I see if she sees years old, if
she sees one of these reporters that took the time
to write about her validity not just as part of
the family, but also her validity in terms of existing,
they're questioning whether I should have done that, which therefore
is questioning whether she should that she should exist. I
(12:20):
look at that, and I think, what if she runs
into you and you think, you know what, I wrote
something that you shouldn't be here. I mean, listen, I
just gotta sit with kind of speechless. Yea, it is horrendous.
She's used as a case study for really being you know,
the unattainable super mom in this instance, and it's such
(12:42):
an unfair projection because there's so many elements that go
into what the public perceives, and there's so many fake
things that go on to social media. Right, we put
up our most beautiful moments of our life. But Hilaria
shows her whole life all the time. But this myopic
view that this particular reporter took really just zoomed in
on this one thing, saying the rest of it is irrelevant,
(13:03):
and this part of her life is too shiny, and
it makes others feel bad and they can't stop watching it.
But that's her fault, which which I wonder about. I
wonder about because this was February, um and in you know,
two thousand to public miscarriages that I was very open
about and I cried about that. Then people, you know,
(13:26):
most people were so wonderful and supportive and shared their
own experiences because infertility is very, very common unfortunately. UM.
So I'd love to take a little time to talk
about surrogacy. I love that you are, you know, open
with um the name of your surrogate. I keep mind
private for for her well, because it right, no no
(13:48):
exactly and that's no no, and I get that. And
I'm not just for you guys listening. I'm not going
to say the name of my surrogate because that is
not what she wants. UM. But I also have this
amazing relationship. We talked like with text at least almost
every single day, and we're so close, and we go
through such an amazing um. We we went through such
(14:11):
amazing transformations together, um. And so I'd love to talk
a little bit about what the surrogacy experience was for you.
I actually texted her last night and asked her some
things that she would like to share. UM, just because
hearing from a surrogate actually made me want to go
through with the process, whereas what I thought surrogacy was
(14:32):
going to be made me not want to do it.
I worked very very hard to not have a surrogate,
and I was told my very by my very first
IVF doctor UM that it would I would probably have
to do it, and I worked really really hard. I
(14:55):
mean that to me was the ultimate loserdom um. At
the time. Of course, I don't have those thoughts now.
But at the time, I thought, I'm gonna have to
buy somebody's uterus, would you know, Like I'm I said
this in the most crude way, because that's how I
felt at the time, unfiltered, raw emotions. Nobody's gonna be yeah, yeah,
commutely and um, you know, I called an agency, and
(15:18):
thank goodness for this woman at this agency that I used,
because she had so I mean, but by the time
you go to get a surrogate, you're pretty much toast,
like you've tried everything, right, um, and you go okay, so, um,
you know, I had my embryos frozen and because you know,
my doctor kep on telling me I was old and
(15:38):
I better get those eggs out of there. Because she
started to go into labor very early, right, and so
she was in and out of the hospital and she lived,
you know, about an you know, an hour flight from me,
and man, I mean, we had people who worked with
the hospital who didn't even get it and they would
come in and the amount of women who would go
(16:01):
is it weird carrying a white woman's baby. Now, I
had that added factor of her being you know, a
different color than me, and the amount of people saying
that to her, or we would be somewhere at the
mall together and they'd go, oh, your baby, and she goes, oh,
well it's hers. I'm carrying it for her, and they'd
be like, oh, oh oh, not instant, And I just figured,
(16:24):
you know, it's sort of I compared it to uncomfortable
Thanksgivings with family, you know, like you know when you
have the creepy uncle Charlie in the corner and you're
trying to avoid them at Thanksgiving. I mean, that was
just the whole experience, but nobody when I finally talked
about it, and you know, I'm on a soap. I
I don't have the same notoriety as you do. I
(16:47):
I you know, people felt bad for me. I think
they because it was really um horrendous and my whole journey,
uh was and so many people didn't know about it,
and so if they if they felt weird, it was
behind my back and it wasn't to my face. But
I I always didn't. You know. There's also this I
(17:08):
don't know if you experience this, but but uh um,
my surrogate gained only five pounds during gestation with Natalia,
so of course I was freaking out I was she
essentially lost body weight right now. And it's that I
(17:29):
only bring that up because it's the lack of control
you have over something that is your Like that really
really screwed in my mind, Like and I had to
talk myself off the ledge. I didn't have a husband,
I was doing this with. UM. I had family members
and really good friends. UM, but it was it was
(17:51):
really hard, and no one understood it because I didn't
know anyone as a single woman who was doing this. UM.
Now more people are doing it, UM, but it was
really really hard, you know. It was like, um, something
that only you know about that no one, no one
can experience you. Well, it's funny, I mean having I
(18:12):
definitely feel the giving up control, although I have to
say that also when you carry a baby, you're giving
up control to which which it's It's when I was
pregnant with Carmen and I was getting like the these
crazy implantation cramps, and I literally thought that I was
(18:32):
going to start bleeding every single time I got them,
and so I'd run to the bathroom and I was
like not bleeding. I'm like, how is it possible that
you feel these period like cramps and it's and there's
no blood. What is going on? So I called my
mother and I was like, I hate this, so this
is unfair, Like I want to write a strongly worded
letter to whoever created this in nature. And She's like, Larry,
(18:52):
I get ready for an entire lifetime of not being
able to control your children. And I was like, oh
my god, got one like six weeks and what have
I signed up? Four? I don't know if I'm built
for this. But you know, when I had I had
had some chemical pregnancies UM scattered until you know, baby
(19:13):
number four, and then I got pregnant. UM. I got
pregnant naturally in the spring of twenty nineteen, so before
my my fourth kid was one, because I've had them
all back to back and the heartbeat was wrong. Was
not good the from the moment that we heard it
(19:35):
and I had you know, I'm I'm a a capital corners.
I've said before, I'm I'm pretty stoic in some ways.
So I was like, Okay, you know, I haven't had
a miscarriage after heartbeat, so I you know, I've had
four kids. They say one in five children ends in miscarriage,
So this is it. This is it um I was.
I was also told that I was old because then
(19:55):
I was thirty five, you know, because I just turned
in January, and this was in the spring, so I
thirty five and change. And I basically we we waited
until the heartbeat stopped, which was probably about like nine
plus weeks. So I went from week six to week nine,
going you know, every few days or so and watching
(20:16):
the heartbeak get slower and slower and slower. I was
very open about it actually when on the Today Show
and I talked about it, because one of the things
that frustrates me from not not just being in the
public eye, but just being in the communities that we
don't often talk about things as they're going on, and
that's sometimes when we need to support the most, we
just kind of close it off. And so I, you know,
(20:37):
I was very open about that I had a d
n C to to remove the pregnancy, and then I
decided for many different reasons, that I was going to
try i V for the first time. And I when
we talked about how that's quite a thing that egg
retrieval sensations that I'd never felt before, um, just in
(20:58):
terms of the heaviness in my in my ovaries and
and we we were successful with it. And then I
started that entire summer of nineteen, I was taking hormones
and doing the whole preparation that you know, we all
know here that is to to um transfer the embryo.
(21:20):
And then at the late summer, I transferred the embryo
and I'm doing my own shots. I learned to do
it in my back because like, can you guys just
like like it's empowering moment of levity of imagining Alec
Baldwin trying to shove a needle in my butt. I
think that would have been I've definitely and we've got
a lot together. That would have been the end of
our relationship, wrest wore. But it was intense then I, um,
(21:44):
you know with the heartbeat, or we know, right before
the heartbeat, I started having this crazy, crazy cramping and
a lot of bleeding. And this was like right before
you could find that see the heartbeat, and we were
sure that was miscarring. We're sure, And and I was thinking,
I was like, I've come so far, you know, all
(22:05):
of the shots, all of the pills, all the suppositories,
the patches, you know, my bruised but my bruised belly. Um.
And then then this happened. I had this miraculous thing
where I bled for two days. It was very physically painful.
And they told me blood with pain isn't good. Um,
so it's not good news. And then I went and
there was a heartbeat and I was like, oh my god,
(22:28):
there's a heartbeat. It was so excited, and they said,
you know what, it's just there's a like a cot
and that was what it was. So it's gonna be okay. Then, um,
I you know, I announced. I decided also to be like,
you know what, fun this whole thing that you have
to wait till your three months. When I'm feeling sick
and I'm feeling this and I'm feeling that, I'm just
gonna tell everybody because that's my my my thing now
(22:50):
is just tell everybody everything so everybody can leave me
alone to be open and show, you know, the reality
of it. Which, now, where do we see that? This
New York Times reporter missed, you know, missed the point right, um?
And she um. I told my and my daughter and
it was a girl. And so I said to my daughter,
I said, you're gonna get your sister we have all
our boys, and we love our boys, and I'm such
(23:10):
a boy mom. But she really wanted another sister. She's
an older sister. And and then I went for my
sixteen week appointment and um, this is where I'm gonna
start to cry. I'm laying there and I had this
weird feeling because I couldn't feel the baby. And I
can usually feel the baby very early on. I couldn't
with my first bootm other was I can feel super
(23:31):
early on where people tell me that I'm making it up,
and I promise you I'm not. And and I she
puts the wand on my belly and the baby's not moving.
She was dead at six did you say? Sixteen weeks?
And um, I started to scream. I called Alec was
on a bus, who was on a public bus at
(23:52):
the time. Um, and I just I just didn't know
what to do. They you know, they they said it
was late in the day. I wiped the cream off
my belly. I go and I had to talk to
the doctor because this was the the tech of them
very close with you know, she's she's scandal all my babies.
And I went talk to the doctor and he told
me again while you're old. But just know that you
(24:14):
didn't do anything wrong. They always wanted to don't you
didn't do anything wrong, but but you are old, and wow,
what bad lucky had two miscarriages in a row and
this one with with IVF you know, you would think.
And then I walked like many many, many, many many
blocks and I just was crying and walking many blocks.
I get home and I needed to tell people right
away that was my feeling because I couldn't handle people
(24:35):
congratulating me, and people write me all the time congratulating me.
As I told Carmen, I told my daughter, who was
so I mean, I hope that it wasn't throwing too
much on her plate, but she had just know the truth,
and she was asking me, how is my sister? Wasn't me?
They were pictures of my sister, And I took the
video that I put on my social media of me crying,
and yes, it was, you know, very emotional, but it
(24:58):
is what it is. And I just wanted people to
know that I couldn't. I didn't want them to say
I'm so happy for you, because I was not happy.
And I just quite cried for I could not believe
how many tears can come out of you and and
then you fall asleep and then you wake up and
you remember that it's true. And I had a belly um,
(25:21):
and then so I had to get something called a
d and E, which basically your boy feels like you
had a baby afterwards. So my milk came in at
my post partum hair loss and um, anyway I did.
I did that. Now fast forward to a month and
a half later, I get pregnant naturally, and um, why
(25:42):
am I still crying? Because you know, but it was
very much. It was very confusing. And then I had this.
I had this embryo, this this other embryo, and I said,
I feel I can't have any more kids. Ha ha ha.
Now it's another one when obviously I have no idea,
I have no crystal ball, but I can't have another
and I my body can't handle anymore. I'm gonna have
(26:03):
this baby. What am I going to do with this embryo?
And I feel like if I put her inside of me,
it's going to be a death sentence. I was sure
that the same thing would happen that you know, you
lose control what we were talking about before that I
was gonna put it. And I was going to try
to house her just like a house the babies that
I can see naturally and um, and I was going
(26:24):
to kill her basically and um because women, we put
so much weight on our on our ability to bring life,
and then we take all of the responsibility on us.
And so I um. Based. I met with a friend
who had done surrogacy and um, and they had tried
very hard to have have kids. And they she connected
(26:46):
me with the woman who who carried her children, who
then connected me to this whole amazing world. And I
was very I'm not sure about it. I was very
not sure. Um. But and I eventually um, I met
an amazing woman who is our surrogate and um, and
they said to me, Um, this is what surrogacy is like.
(27:10):
You have your grandmother's recipe of your cake, You make
your cake, your oven is either occupied or it's not working.
As you go to your neighbor's house, and neighbor cloks
the cake for you, and then the neighbor gives the
cake back to you because it's your cake, it's not
your neighbor's cake. And that I mean, it's such a
silly thing, but it made so It was made a
(27:33):
really good point because I was asking, how are you
going to feel about, you know, carrying a baby and
then giving baby. I I don't think I could do that.
I don't think I could do that. But you realize
that the women that do this are angels. They're like
they are like the nurses in the hospital that just
come and hold onto you and hold onto your baby.
(27:55):
And you know, my, my, um my, my surrogate says,
and this is what she does, this is this is
she loves it. She's passionate about it. She says, I
get to make families for a living. I get to
make love, and in a different way of making love,
I like you to make this entire loving relationship for you.
(28:17):
And I thought that it's just she she is so
inspiring to me. And you know, I mean, had the
people who judged me so much if they knew all
of the reasons why. And that's the whole thing is
that you shouldn't have to just don't don't judge about
things that you don't know about. And how my Marielu,
who is the one born the surrogacy, her her story
(28:41):
starts with you know the loss that I had, you know,
and and that her coming here. There is a connection
between those two souls. But you know, I think this
show is all about right like sisterhood, right like how
it takes the village and women being there for each other. Obviously,
Sir I guests as a modern you know, gift to us,
(29:03):
and this was not an option to generations passed. But
at the same time, this is another ability for women
to show up and hold space and really help one another.
Granted it is a paid job, unless you know, there
are people that just volunteered to do it for others,
but it is a beautiful, beautiful thing, and just honoring
that and honoring them and seeing them as like the
beautiful givers they are for providing such an amazing service
(29:27):
that so many of us don't understand. You know, we
look at the numbers here, like at least like like
the most conclusive stats on infertility in the US, like
more than thirty five percent of Americans have a very
hard time conceiving. It takes years. It takes almost eight
cycles of IVF on average for a woman to get pregnant.
(29:47):
So there's so much that goes into it. It's such
a factory, it's such a business it's very dehumanizing, very demoralizing,
because you are just a part of this machine too
to make a baby, and you don't get the opportunity
to cry like like you do, to have that moment,
because they're just pushing you through the machine to the end, right,
and the process is daunting. I've done it three times
(30:10):
and I have no children. You know, It's just it
is painful, and every part of your body and your
mind changes during the process, and there really isn't an outlet.
So I think to something we should talk about when
we are concluding this conversation is, you know, real support
for women that are going through this, and how we
can kind of put on our website, like how you
(30:31):
can out find some outreach networks in which you can
have these conversations so you don't feel alone because a
huge amount of the population goes through this. And I
think a lot of women ascribe their validity as a
woman to the motherhood paradigm, being able to be a mother,
and that is so harrowing because that's not that's not
(30:53):
defining of who you are, your character, what you can
offer to the world. It's a beautiful thing. It's a
beautiful bonus but we're also vulnerable to it. I know,
since I still really want children and don't have them.
I walk around I live, you know, in a very
baby centric neighborhood in New York, and there have been
days or I just walked by all these little play
groups and start crying. You just it's so deeply ingrained
(31:15):
in us, and we don't get to talk about how
much it hurts because you're never on the right side
of it, it seems. And I'm fortunate to be a
step parent as well, but there is the biological tied
to parenting where that doesn't count, right, and so there's
a judgment maybe in that to some people. That are
people's perception, you know, well, I I just want everybody
(31:38):
at home toil what you mean to totally and a
lack of control that you have, and like there's all
they're all the gray areas that you cannot cross there,
so there's red tape everywhere, and um, it's such a
beautiful experience as well, and such an honor to be
able to be there for children and also provide them
at that outlet that is also a friend and not
just a parent, because there is a different level of
(32:00):
authority that comes with that in some dynamics. But yeah,
it's you know, you always have to clarify because then
someone thinks you're being you know, dishonest, like, oh, I
have kids, I have step kids, Like, oh right, you
know it's different and that's hard to Oh yeah, that's
who does It's so rede Yeah, the judgment. But we're
(32:25):
gonna we're gonna um, We're gonna wrap soon. But I
think the one of the takeaways from here is people
are going through something that you don't know anything about.
There's there's that quote that I completely just butchered right now,
but we all know which one it is. And you know,
being a parent or not being a parent, or trying
(32:47):
to be a parent and having it not work out.
It's not a competition. It's not a competition. This isn't
this person against this person against that person. It is
purely the love that I have. Am I giving it
to another being? Am I learning to give it to myself?
Am I giving it to a partner? Am I giving
it out to the world and taking care of everybody?
(33:09):
Or being a positive force rather than a negative force
out there? And I mean, I'm I'm really grateful that
you came on and talked about this because it gave
me an opportunity to to speak about my experience for
the first time. The other things, we put such weight
into physical suffering for women and and motherhood, and we think, oh,
(33:30):
if you didn't physically suffer to have this child in
the way that I think physical suffering is. Therefore, we
we questioned it and we did. Yes, yes, absolutely so
(33:53):
we do. We do something on which is anonymous called uh,
what are we coming in your coven? And um, which
means basically, just like a favorite thing that we share,
so like a product or a book or an experience
or yeah, something we love that we're not really connected
to that inspiring us. Oh yeah, no, I do have something.
(34:18):
I thought, okay, I'll do it because it's not connected.
There are things that I'm connected to. But this is
really weird to see on my show. If I don't
have a little color, I can look you know these Yeah,
oh yeah, right time. Yeah, I can come off on
my show because there's a lot of blue in our
lighting to look at these. These are like tantels. And
I do this on my face and it doesn't make
(34:40):
me break out. I do it on my face and
I just do it on my arms and they're little
tantels and they're so easy. Oh, I love that. That's
a good one. It's so good. And mine is so
basic and weird. But um Larya and I have a
very close friend who also does our hair, and it's
been a really long time since I've seen him, and
I've just been for I to like keep it together
(35:01):
and make my hair look decent lyly and like messy
and witchy and not so like styled anyway, going through
a renaissance over here. So it's these little silky hair
ties where I can like tie them up and it
gets all like scrunchy and mermaidy and doesn't ever leave
like a dent. It's that silk brand by who I
guess I tore, you know. The brand is called Silk
and they're like these little silk scrunchy things. The tide
(35:23):
fell off. It usually just says silk on it. But
so good. Do you have to do it like a
like a bun rather than just a ponytail in order
to not so, I don't want to work out, And
I like spray, like wave wave spray, and then they
like twist it and then like put it over the
back and then it comes out pretty decent. I don't know.
I love that you guys went I'll do I'll do
mine now too. So mine is ilia is this really
(35:45):
like wide lipstick, but you can actually also use it
for your cheeks. I'm super um crazy about the preservatives
that I put on my skin because they do make
me break out. Um. This color is called at last
and and and I like it because you can put
it on your lips, you can put it on your
cheeks and blend it in. I'm not, you know, a
huge I'm not a huge makeup where so it's just
(36:09):
getting a little something unless somebody else is doing my makeup,
and then then I'm happy to put it on. Hi, Michelle,
thank you so much for being with us. This was
for me a completely life changing conversation to be able
to open up in this way. I love that you did.
I feel really honored that you trusted me enough to
do that, And thank you for having me, both of you.
(36:30):
Thank you for your candor and making this conversation, which
can be so difficult, really open and safe. And also
we can find some light in it because there is
some comedy and how hard we have to fight some
of the battles to you know, to get where we
want to get with being a mother. Thank you both.
Thank you
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