March 4, 2025 • 66 mins
On this journey of life, sometimes it can feel like we have lost our way. Dr. Thema Bryant has written a road map for those seeking to discover their authentic selves, which can lead to a path of greater fulfillment.
The renowned psychologist, author, and professor joins Sophia for an inspiring conversation full of truth bombs we all need to hear, including not being afraid of feeling disappointment, recognizing the signs of emotionally unavailable people, and learning to trust yourself.
Dr. Thema’s book “Matters of the Heart” is available in bookstores now.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi,
friends and listeners. I am absolutely elated today to be
(00:20):
joined by someone that I look up to learn from,
am in awe of, and honestly who gives me so
much inspiration, such reminders to be courageous, and also often
helps me give myself permission to be a little more
patient with my life. Today's guest is doctor Tama Bryant.
(00:40):
She is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister
who is leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas,
and overcoming stress and depression. And she manages to do
it with an energy and a smile and a voice
that makes everyone around her take it deep, breath, lean in,
(01:01):
and feel seen. Doctor Tema is the author of the
newly released book Matters of the Heart, which aims to
empower readers to connect with themselves and others, delving into
topics like control issues, emotional and availability, and relationships both
with others and with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming, came
(01:22):
out in twenty twenty two, and I know so many
of us needed it, loved it, cherished it. This book,
Matters of the Heart is absolutely beautiful. It draws on
the wisdom of science and sacredness lived experience, and helps
readers tend to, as doctor Tama calls it, the garden
of their hearts. She encourages us to build our best
(01:44):
relational lives because love is not a level playing field,
and improving your relationship with yourself is the first step
in leveling the field and living a life that brings
you joy. Let's dive in with doctor Tama. Doctor Tamin,
(02:09):
I'm just elated to have you here, and I sort
of feel like my favorite first question to ask everyone
goes a layer deeper because today I get to ask
it of you. So much of your research helps us
understand our connection to ourselves. And when I sit with
someone like yourself who has these lists of accolades and
(02:31):
incredible you know, books published and all of these things,
I'm always curious, if you could bend the spacetime continuum
and sit across from yourself at eight or nine years old,
if you would see the woman that you are today
in that little girl. And I think I'm particularly thrilled
(02:54):
to hear your answer because so much of what you're
doing in the new book is helping us understand and
how the younger versions of ourselves affect who we are today.
So all of that said and no pressure, but I
can't wait to hear how you would feel with your
nine year.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Old Yes, I love that question.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And to my nine year old self, I would say
something I commonly say today to clients, to mintees, to
social media, and that is you are worthy. You are worthy,
You are worthy. There are so many messages that bombard
(03:39):
us from very early on, especially as girls and as women,
to feel insufficient, inadequate, to feel that we have to
be something we are not, to believe that we are
not enough. And so I would say to the nine
year old me, you are more more than enough, you
(04:01):
are worthy, and you will align with people who see you,
so don't lose sight of yourself. Yeah, yeah, And I
do want to say there are different domains of self esteem,
different areas of self esteem. So academically I was an
(04:24):
a student and felt very good about that, and then
in terms of like gifts or talents, I love dancing
and poetry and felt very positive about that. But then
when we get to the realities of sexism and racism,
they do a number on the self esteem, the body image,
(04:46):
the social esteem of ourselves when you feel like you
are not chosen or not sufficient, and so when you've
had those experiences of and it can result in you breadcrumbing,
accepting the minimum, not being aware that you're deserving of
(05:08):
the feast, even if the feast has not yet shown that.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
M Yeah, that's a big one, right. The idea that
you are worthy of being patient with your life, because
there's a lot of talk about oh, you're worthy of this,
and how can you love another person if you don't
love yourself, and it all feels a little bumper stickery
(05:34):
to me.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And the notion that you can be sure you deserve
something you haven't seen yet, but you know it exists
because you've certainly seen other people find it. That's a
kind of nuance and a layered ability to look at
(05:58):
time differently that I don't think we are encouraged to
focus on, especially as women and especially in a capitalist
world where productivity is sort of treated as sacred. To
be and allow yourself this space to be is kind
of a radical act of self acceptance.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
It is it is the basis of what's called liberation psychology.
So liberation psychology requires that we pay attention to contexts.
When people are ignoring contexts, they would say, the problem
is just in your mind, like why don't you love
your body? Why don't you love your face? Why don't
(06:43):
you love your hair, as if you have just created
these thoughts in the abstract, as opposed to the powerful
messaging that gets sent forward that says you have to
be something other than what you are to be love,
to be worthy, to be respected, to be appreciated. And
(07:06):
so when we dismantle those and we speak truth to
the fact of of course, this is a struggle for
you because there have been all of these systems set
up to make you believe you are unworthy.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
So the fact that you wrestle.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
With it is not like, oh, you just need to
love you. It's a as you name, it's a radical
revolutionary act of resistance for me to push through all
of these messages and say I still choose me, I
still celebrate me.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, and you've just illuminated something for me. I wonder.
I would imagine you've had this a lot, because you're
such a profound speaker and a profound writer and such
a top tier academic that you also have the research
to back up the poetry that you often give to
the world. And many years ago I was asked what
(08:04):
I would say to my younger self and what came
to me, And I didn't realize how badly I needed
to hear it until I said it out loud. Was
worry less about being someone else's definition of enough. You
already are. And I consider myself. You know, we talk
(08:25):
a lot about privilege in the world, and we have
to to begin to understand as you're referring to these
systems that treat people differently. I consider myself to have
had the great privilege of a lot of exposure to
a lot of people who live different than me and
look like do look different than me for my whole life.
And one of the things in groups of women that
(08:48):
you know we all do the work with when I
look at women who look like me, who might be
newer to some of these spaces, I just say, you
know how hard it is to move through the world
in your body as a woman. Imagine how hard it
is for my best friend Nia, for doctor Tama, who
I say with today, for the other women in our
circles that we know to move through the world as
(09:10):
women and as black women, or Brown women or South
Asian women, like the piling on of what you have
to squeeze through. You don't get to be passing in
any way. You don't get to take off your identity.
And it's why I think when we have to ask
(09:34):
people to look deeper. Even when you talk about loving
your hair, you know the idea that there could be
resistance to the Crown Act, to a law that says
you cannot discriminate against your employees for how they wear
their hair. Yes, people who haven't experienced it don't realize
it's part of the menu of microaggressions that you're being
(09:57):
faced with every day. And so I wish and I
think part of the reason I always cherish finding you
in the sphere of what my algorithm serves to me
when I pick up my phone, it always knows I
want to hear from you, is that you're reminding us
(10:18):
all instead of competing in the I'm more hurt than
you Olympics, to say I know what hurt is. How
can I acknowledge my own and how can I be
sensitive to the different kinds of hurt that exists in
the people around me? So maybe we can all heal
together and I think it's a profound practice for humans,
(10:42):
and in a moment like this, it's an incredibly important
awareness to carry as we try to push back against
this pendulum swing back into deep, overt, cruel, systemic oppression.
So you're doing heart work, You're doing like nation saving
work as.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Well as Yeah, it really is about recognizing how much
our liberation is intertwined. And when we don't see that,
we treat it like a competition, which then says you
have to be erased so that I can be seen.
(11:24):
And when people act like that, then it is the
misperception that if you have a month, or you have
a day, or you have a speaker, that somehow that
is an attack on me, instead of I love that
phrase of the sky is big enough for all the
stars to shine.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So there is room to talk about all of our
histories which are interwoven. There is room to talk about
our literature, our art, our beauty, our contributions, our wisdoms,
our spiritualities.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
There is space. And so it is that scarcity mindset
and agreed mindset that says there will only be room
for one and that one must be me.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, it strikes me because you are able to hold
all of these things. You are a professional at the dialectics,
you understand all of these things can be true at
the same time. And to be the psychologist that you
are and come from a deep generational faith tradition in
(12:32):
your family to be both a psychologist and a minister.
So many people assume that faith and science are diametrically
opposed instead of actually, when the scope is widened, able
to hold and support one another. How did you How
did you get here? When did it click for you
(12:53):
entering into academia or as a young student that you
wanted to carry both of these worlds together.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, it feels more true, more real, more authentic to me,
instead of what we would call the false dichotomy.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Right of which one are you? Do you appreciate science
or are you a spiritual person? And it's who said
I had to choose because if I'm a spiritual person,
then I understand the lessons that are encoded in nature.
And if I sit and appreciate the observations, then I
(13:33):
understand the sacred can work through my being as a psychologist.
That it's not an either or like are you going
to pray or go to therapy? You can pray your
way to therapy.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You can pray therapy, you can pray after therapy.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So rejecting and resisting these false choice is and I
would say, you know, a part of that is from
an afrocentric perspective is fundamentally being holistic. And so we're
holistic and we honor the mind, the body, the heart,
(14:14):
the spirit, the community. And I used to live these
kind of separate sels. So when I was with my
spiritual friends, then that's what I would talk about. When
I was with my artsy friends, then we talk about
dance and poetry. When I was with my academic folks,
and we would talk about the latest articles. And I
(14:35):
will say I did not maximize and I'm still not
at the maximum, but I did not maximize my possibility
until I started integrating those multiple cells. And when I
did that and showed up as my authentic self, it
(14:55):
freed and liberated and gave other people permission to say
me too. So, for example, I was a past president
for the Society of the Psychology of Women, and you know,
a big part of that work is around feminist psychology.
And so when you're president, we have a budget and
(15:16):
you can set different initiatives, And one of the initiatives
that I did was on women's psychology, Spirituality, religion and faith.
And before I did that initiative, there was kind of
this unspoken rule that feminists would be against any kind
of religious tradition because of patriarchy and the oppression of
(15:40):
women in violence against women. And so when I announced
the initiative, we had like a break in the board
meeting and a number of board members came up to
me and we're whispering, saying, I'm episcopalia in there, I'm Catholic,
I'm Jewish, and it's like, why are we whispering? It
is believing the falsehood that in order for my politic
(16:06):
to be important to me, I had to have surrendered
my faith, and it's just not true.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And so it's been beautiful to be a bridge.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
To create spaces and hold spaces where we can be
our totality, the fullness of who we are, and not
have to leave parts of ourselves in the margins.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah. Well, and what strikes me is so important about
beginning to unify spaces like that again, is it actually
gives room for them not only to evolve, but to
reclaim their full selves. Yes, you know, I grew up
in a family full of Catholics, Jews, and atheists, so
(16:53):
our holiday dinners are wild as you can imagine. You know,
by the time I got to college, I'd already spent
you know, time taking college courses on Islamic studies. I
really wanted to understand, you know, how are all these
faith traditions so intertwined. And for me, it's never lost
on me that when the faith tradition, whatever religion it is,
(17:17):
also becomes a business and there's profit to be made,
then the faith tradition becomes more patriarchal. Women are cut
out of leadership, often cut out of text, and the
energy changes. And so to your point about an afrocentric
methodology of being, to become more holistically feminist, more holistically
(17:42):
community centered, more holistically devout. In filling the blank faith,
you actually become more inclusive. Yes, yes, And it's like
it's like we've gotten stuck in our human experience down
here in the weeds, and we're forgetting that there's a
whole you know, canopy that we're meant to understand and
(18:08):
navigate together.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, So that reclamation, the decolonization, the deconstruction you know,
what are the lies the myths that we were presented
with as truth and as absolute and give ourselves space
to interrogate that and to mean it's not that I
(18:33):
have to throw away the whole thing. I throw away
the version of it that was given to me that
dishonored me. Yeah, I tap in two. There are a
whole tradition of people before me who were committed to
we say liberation theology. What frees us, what lifts us,
(18:53):
What actually allows me to enter into spaces and feel
loved there and feel seen? And if I have never
entered into such a space, how do I create that?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
To create sacred space, we would.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Say, even on your podcast right now, this can be
holy ground, This can be sanctuary and we are deserving
of that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Wow. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The idea.
It's a big topic, right how to how to unify
the world, make people treat each other more holistically, less competitively.
(19:41):
We would be remiss not to put it in the
context of what's currently happening in our country. You know,
this backswing as we were discussing earlier into this, you know,
very right wing discriminatory fascism, and everything you're saying perfectly
(20:02):
fits over the scope of the world, but also of
the internal world of one of an individual. And I
think in periods like this where the world at large
feels so traumatizing to so many people, people are trying
to manage stress. They are absolutely overwhelmed. It's chronic. How
(20:24):
do you begin to give whether it's like you said,
your mentees or clients or folks who you talk to online,
how do you help people get to the tip of
the spear, put that first poke in the veil and
start to see what's on the other side. Where do
(20:45):
you tell folks to begin?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Yeah, such an important question, especially in the times we
are living in. It's necessary and so I use the
term home coming to come to myself is to tell
myself the truth. And when I tell myself the truth,
I don't have to censor, judge, or apologize for what
(21:12):
I feel.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And so.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
With that in mind, for those who see the landscape
and are exhausted, that makes sense speak that this is exhausting,
for those who are disappointed, for those who are outraged.
You know, sometimes people present this notion that to have
to be mentally or spiritually well like you're just in
(21:36):
this place of not being moved by anything, there's some
outrageous things happening. So a healthy response is actually outrage.
It means that I recognize that things are out of order,
that people are being dishonored, that people are being dehumanized.
And so you know, I would start with allow yourself
(21:59):
to feel it. Tell yourself and those within your circle
who you trust, what is stirred up for you in
this season. Because what we often do, and this is
again you know, from this capitalist notion of like I
have to be on and perform and because I'm measured
by my labor, is then we pretend how are you
(22:23):
I'm fine and you I'm fine, right, So we shake
that up. We disrupt that by.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
How are you? I'm mad? How are you? I'm disappointed?
How were you?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I'm tired? How are you I'm confused about the way forward?
Oh you too, Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out too.
So our truth sets us free, and that also allows
us to mobilize, because you cannot respond to something you
do not acknowledge. And then it's for us to step
(23:00):
out of these silos of only fighting for my small group.
Because as long as we are divided and see each
other as enemy or competition, then we are disempowered. But
you know, successful movements happen when they are intergenerational, when
(23:21):
they are intercultural, when people show up from all over
all over the place, and the ways in which things
are moving tap into that necessity. Can I see your
struggle and see mine versus? What has happened is people
thought some people thought that this would not affect them,
(23:45):
so they were comfortable with it. It's like, Oh, if
it's only going to affect the undocumented, I'm okay. Or
if it's only going to affect LGBTQ, I'm okay. And
so then as it continues to roll out and gets
closer to people's front door, then it's like, oh.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Wait, what are we going to do about this? Yeah?
What are we going to do about this?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Do you think that? And I ask because I don't
think it's easy to find people who would readily say, oh,
I assumed this would just affect these people. But do
you think the human I don't want to say tendency,
but perhaps frequent human pattern of Oh, if it's just
(24:33):
happening over there, then me and mine are all right.
Do you think that comes from the kind of generational
truth that we carry that humanity has come with such
violence and such cruelty and such terror, as it has
also innovated and created and done beautiful things in the world.
(24:55):
Do you think humans have an inherent that can be
so powerful that they can run from collective reality?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
I think instead of it being inherent, I actually think
it's taught, and that people are taught that these people,
whichever however we want to label them, are the problem,
that they're the reason you're not succeeding, that they're the
ones that are taking your jobs, that they're the ones
(25:32):
that are ruining our neighborhood. And so it is. It
is taught, and then it is repeated. And so the
excuse people will give, they won't say I don't care
about them. They'll say, this is going to be good
for the economy, right, They'll say that, you know, I'm
(25:55):
making a financial decision, and so this is gonna be
and then like, oh, well, the price of eggs, well,
the price of brig well, the employment, uh you know.
But but what people have to wrestle with is actually
none of what is being done was a secret or hidden.
(26:20):
It was announced, and so uh so people were fine
with it. They were fine with it. They were fine
with the agenda because they thought, I'm going to get
rich and we're going to get rid of all the
bad people. And uh, you know it has been I
(26:41):
would say maybe throughout our history, our societal history of
convincing impoverished and middle income people that they will benefit. Uh,
the more wealthy people are happy because as long as
you can see someone is beneath you, then you're gonna
(27:05):
do great. And it is a historical lesson that people
have to continue to learn that some people who claim
to be for me or not for me, and some
people who have been presented to me as my enemies
are actually my greatest potential allies.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah. Yeah, some of the studies confuse me. I remember,
you know, the guys the rules of economic anxiety, and
we all know what that is, as you've just so
eloquently explained. There was a maybe it was around the midterms,
(27:49):
a study that came out talking about how they would
give these examples to people and say, well, you and
all your coworkers can make eighty thousand dollars a year,
or you can make one hundred thousand dollar a year,
but those four guys on your team are actually going
to make one hundred and twenty because they're technically doing
things in the office that are more management level than you.
(28:09):
But you know, twenty thousand dollar rais for you and
forty thousand dollar rays for them. And most people said no,
we should all make eighty, even though that gave them less.
And I was fascinated by why do we want to
compete instead of all continue to succeed? Why do you
want to hold yourself and you and your coworker back
(28:31):
instead of watch them soar and then earn your way
into soaring. And when we start to look at all this,
you know, the need to withhold from others is often
the root of what hurts us. And we see it
(28:52):
happening in this wide landscape, and what happens without is
reflected within. And one of the things that gave me
this moment of I kind of gasped when I read it,
to be honest, when I started the book, And I'm
going to just like do the thing on the podcast
and hold up this beautiful book that you've given to
(29:15):
us because a lot of people, I think, struggle with
having to learn or you should know this by now
and then they have shame if they don't, so then
they don't want to learn anything about it. And we
see it a lot in the world of trying to
teach generational lessons and social justice and our history, especially
(29:37):
as they're banning books. And when I picked up your
book to get ready for today, I gasped really early
when you said, if you want to read this book
in the order of chapters that call to you, go ahead.
I just ask that you do read all of it.
(29:59):
Never have I I've ever had a teacher at any
level of my personal or my academic life tell me
I could read the syllabus out of order. And I
was like, I'm a forty two year old woman, and
I was like, I just got a permission s lift
to bring the rules. And it really it gave me
joy that made me laugh in my kitchen. And then
(30:22):
I went, wait a second, what if we did this
more for each other out in the world and said
you might know this, but you might not know that.
And here's just a thing I think you might want
to know. Come to this at your own pace, come
to this in your own time. How did you get there,
being as wise as you are about all of it?
(30:46):
And the generations of all of it, and the connections
of all of it, and why people say what they
do because they don't really want to say what they think,
and where the fear comes from, And I mean it's
the systems are big, and you manage to give a
world of permission for every one of one person who
wants to grow with you. How did you figure out
(31:10):
how to do that? And and was it that notion
of homecoming that opened it for you?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It is thank you first of all for that example.
And I would say a part of what you know,
I approached the writing as a as a clinician or
as a healer and recognizing if someone looks in that
table of contents and it's about, you know, a chapter
(31:40):
in the back on healing after infidelity and they've just
been cheated on, like they want to get there. They
can't even hear the rest right or how to let
go of someone who doesn't love you, Like that's that's
in the forefront of your heart, your mind, your spirit,
And a part of you know, liberation work or womanist
(32:03):
or feminist work is acknowledging the wisdom of the people
around the table. So like that other approach is to
assume I know everything and you know nothing, and so
I'm going to instruct you. But instead right or you know,
and that's not empowering. The empowerment is tap into your
(32:26):
inner wisdom, tap into what you know, you know what
you need right now, trust yourself with what you need
right now, and once you get what you urgently need,
know that the rest of it is there for you
and can serve you. And one of the ways that
I learned the importance of predictions, you know, sharing with people.
(32:49):
Predictions is predictions and permission is in therapy. As a
trauma psychologist, if people come in to thay therapy and
in the moment they feel inspired or they feel safe
and they share something very personal or very vulnerable, it
(33:10):
is a chance that in the moment it felt good,
but afterwards they're going to replay the moment and say
to themselves like I said too much, or what is
doctor Tamer think of me? Or I'm not going back now,
I'm embarrassed. And so at the end of a session
where people have really revealed themselves, I'll give them that
prediction and say to them, I'm so glad what you
(33:33):
shared today.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
And at some.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Point this week you're likely going to think, I don't
know if I want to go back, and I invite
you to push past that and show up anyway. And
if next week you don't want to talk about what
you just said, you can say that and we'll talk
about something else. So then people will come the next
time and say, you know you were right. I was
(33:58):
thinking about not coming, but I remember what you say.
And so for us to walk in our mutual like
we get to co create it together, and we get
to honor and discover that we do know some things
about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
And now a word from our sponsors. One of the
things I appreciate about the example you've just given is
that it's kind of a meditation on patience again, not
(34:39):
just give yourself permission to be patient for life to
show up for you, but also give yourself permission to
have a burst of observation and then need some time,
need some time to go on your morning walk and
let it reverberate around in your body and talk about
something else, and then come back to it when you're
(35:00):
body and spirit have digested it.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
You know, there's a there's a weird byproduct for all
the great things that I think you know, the internet
has given to us. It gave you to me as
a viewer when I first found you. For example, one
of the things I fear it's done, And I just
had a conversation with another artist about this recently. Now
(35:26):
you can't do anything without it feeling or likely being recorded.
You don't have time to discuss something, think about it,
read an article, read a book, mature your opinion, and
then talk about it again. One video clip, one clickbait,
one bad rehearsal for a performing artist of a song,
(35:48):
one and it blows up your life. Right, And sometimes
I worry that people are missing the ability to be vulnerable,
grow and then return as fuller versions of themselves.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, that is such a good point of being accepting,
being called in right, accepting and appreciating growing pains. What
I like to say is when we get it wrong
and someone shares it with us, what a gift like
(36:24):
they could have not said it, and then we continue
on our way not knowing that something was harmful or
offensive or inaccurate. And so we want to always be teachable,
you know, and to have that cultural humility, you know,
because now what they're trying to do is say if
(36:45):
you make the majority uncomfortable, you have now done something illegal.
And it's like discomfort is illegal, right, It will be
uncomfortable to learn what you had not I been told
it is uncomfortable, but you wrestle with that and can
(37:05):
grow from it. The other thing that I think is
important about us giving ourselves permission to honor where we
are in the process is it also is teaching us
sovereignty and empowerment in order to have boundaries. Right, when
I have to just obey, then it requires no awareness
(37:31):
on my part. But when I have to, as you
name like take, I like to call it sacred pause.
Let me pause and consider what do I think, what
do I feel? What do I want to say? And
I like to use the phrase the holiness of no,
because for women, or religious people or trauma survivors, we
(37:56):
are often talked out of our no, and we're in
that people pleasing mode of what do people want me
to be?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
But it's not authentic though.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Instead I get to embrace the holiness of no, that's
not where I am right now, or no I don't
have a capacity for that, or just no, I choose
not to, and so to give ourselves permission to grow,
to change, to shift. That's the way we heal.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, And I love that you relate it to learning
about your impact in the world, sometimes hopefully for good
and sometimes where you don't mean it to be negative
for others. And also this idea of even how we
move through the kind of you know, staircase of our
own experience and reflection. You know, I've had the version
(38:53):
of what you just talked about with my own therapist
where we get to the root of something really hard
that happened and I want to talk about it. It's
time to talk about it, And the next week I'm like,
I need fifteen minutes of talking about something else.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And where I am about that is Yeah, now I've
thought about it every day for seven days, and I'm
mad all over again. And I'm mad at the person
who was in the room and watched it happen and
didn't say anything. And I'm mad. And you have to
go through these things. But you're right. The expectation that
you can just show up and be ready for anything
(39:30):
at any time, it is it is a that is
a boundaryless society, that is a behavior that is lacking
respect for another person's process, and I think the more
we can talk about it, you know how to just
(39:51):
expand what you can hold, including for others, Like imagine
what a more gentle world it would be when you
went through working on the book. Because one of the
things that I love about this, you know, you've coached
so many of us, whether personally or digitally in community
(40:13):
on you know, resilience, on the sacred pause, on expansion,
and a lot of what you talk about in Matters
of the Heart is relationship, and it's relationship to your partner,
to your family, to yourself. Yes, is there a reason
(40:35):
that you chose to use relationship as the container because
it feels as a reader like it was very much
on purpose, and it's not just because people are in
relationships with each other.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Yes, it is the biggest question and most frequent challenge
that people show up with. And it's also a big
predictor for our well being. So when you feel well loved,
well cared for, when you have that sense of belonging,
(41:13):
that can be a protective factor against depression, against anxiety,
against diction dealing with big life transitions. It's like a
moving cross country but I'm calling my friends right so
that can help us, and at the same time, heartbreak
can be devastating and have a ripple effect in the
(41:36):
other areas of our lives. People can be very successful,
let's say academically or professionally, and then if the partnership
is in ruins or the friendship ends, it can disrupt everything.
It can take our sleep, take our appetite, take our
(41:56):
self esteem. And so it is very important both in
terms of thriving and recovering from the difficulties of life.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And in the book you talk a lot about emotional unavailability.
How do you identify if you are emotionally unavailable or if,
as you referenced earlier, you have to let go of
someone who maybe does not love you in the way
they said they did. That feels like an emotional unavailability
(42:33):
or maybe better categorized as a dishonesty. I'll let you decide.
But how do you find kind of the root of
that problem?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Yeah, so, you know, with ourselves, we kind of check
in check ourselves to see how real, how authentic am
I in my relationships and in my friendships. Some of
us can show up for other people when we're feeling strong,
(43:04):
when we're feeling shiny, when we're feeling successful, and then
when we're feeling challenged, we disappear right. So you to
ask yourself, when I'm struggling, do I reach out to
my circle and let people support me, or do I
isolate because I only believe people can see me when
I'm at my best. So that kind of emotional one
(43:29):
note is emotional unavailability that I can't be open to
the full spectrum of my feelings in the presence of
another right. So it's one thing if I say, oh,
you know my coworkers or people I don't know well,
or strangers on the street, Sure with them, I could
(43:51):
do public relations of how's your day? Oh great, how's yours?
But am I talking to my family and friends and
partner that way? So you want to ask yourself your
level of honesty, which is our level of intimacy in
terms of these relationships. And we also want to think
(44:11):
about the ways we may sabotage connections or our discomfort
with being seen. How does it feel to me when
people are actually paying attention right, when they observe things
about me that I'm not used to people seeing.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
And then in terms of in relationship accepting, when people's
actions either don't match their words or when their actions
don't match my fantasy, because sometimes it's not even their words.
Sometimes they never said anything, but you know, we created
(44:55):
this picture of like, oh, we're going to either be
besties or this is going to be my partner. Yeah,
they're not on board with that. So everybody in the
relationship has to know they're in it. It can't just
be one sided, right, right.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. I guess everybody also has a point where
some of those things click in right for whatever reason.
(45:33):
It really makes me think about the dissolution of my
last relationship, which you know, to add insult to injury,
was out in the world, which is never an easy
way to process something, but you know, kind of comes
with the job. The thing that I was so profound
for me, especially as a woman, knowing how so many
(45:57):
of us have been taught to be good and his
smile and to serve others and take care of everyone
else in the room and do do all of the things.
Be a good soldier, be a good leader on set,
be a good daughter, be whatever. The thing that finally
made me stop saying, well, maybe if I compromised more.
(46:19):
Maybe if my job were less difficult, maybe if I, maybe,
if I, maybe, if I and made me go, wait
a second, what about what's supposed to be for me
instead of what I'm supposed to.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Do for Yes?
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yes, And the aha moment for me was being on
the precipice of becoming a mom and going, oh, every
single thing I have accepted for myself, I would never ever,
except for my child, I would never ever. I would
(46:53):
never tell my best friend to compromise more. I would
say to her, you're being asked to compromise yourself, not
to compromise with another. And there was something about realizing, oh,
I have gone through the spectrum of you know, in
(47:13):
small ways to unacceptable big ways. I have always kind
of compromised myself. And I thought I learned how to
not do that, you know, seven years ago, and here
I am realizing I'm still doing it, and it looks
good on the outside and it's all smoke and mirrors,
(47:34):
and it was this kind of revelatory. I sort of
felt like I felt like internally I had one of
those experiences like when we used to watch the videos
of the old hotels in Las Vegas, get demoed like
the cool old buildings that would blow up on the
inside and then collapse, because then they you know, they
were building the skyscrapers like that was my thing. I
(47:56):
was like, oh, i've the whole thing has to come down.
And it made me have conversations with my parents at
forty that I thought we'd had and achieved, and look
at us doing the work at thirty four. All these things.
It made me realize there was a whole basement layer
I'd not gone through yet. And it was so painful
(48:21):
and weirdly also the most joyous, the most oxygenated. I mean,
I just took such a deep breath even thinking about it.
It was so hard and so good, and it was
the thing that had to happen. But I had to
stop trying to be good, and I had to stop
(48:42):
trying to take care of everyone else in the room
before myself. The metaphor I gave myself was like, stop
cooking a dinner for thirty people and then serving yourself
the scraps as the thirtieth person to plate her food.
You cooked the food, You make your plate first, you
eat first.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
But it took me for decades to feel that I
deserved that, and that is when I feel to what
you were saying earlier, that's when I feel like my
life arrived for me. And I was like, oh, okay,
it's just been a slow burn.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yes, but it's here. Ah.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
I love that testimony. And it's also deeply understandable because
we get celebrated for erasing ourselves. You know, people will
hold you up and say, you're a good partner, you're
a good friend, you have no needs, you.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Have no needs, you're so selfless.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yes, yes, it gets celebrated, and so of course you
lived like that, right, And I think that's the part
to take in because if not, we can beat ourselves
up about, oh my god, why did I do this?
For decades because it was taught and reinforced and it
was modeled and celebrated that this is what you because
(50:03):
nobody wants to be a selfish woman, right, right, And
so then when you're like, wait a minute, we're getting
the bad into the stick here, right, I suppose this
should be mutual, This should be reciprocal.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
I should be that. You know.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
What I like to say is if you make them
your priority and they make themselves their priority, who's looking
out for you. Right, So I can only be selfless
in the presence of someone else who is selfless, and
then we are mutually nourishing each other.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Yes, well, and you're saying something that I think gets
missed in this self love discourse, love yourself first before
you can love another. We talked about it earlier. There's this.
I've seen backlash, you know, both for some of what
I've shared. I see it with Chelsea Hamler talking about
choosing herself in a relationship that wasn't good. I see it.
(50:59):
It's on the end, not a lot like oh, happiness
isn't the metric? And how selfish that you and et cetera,
et cetera. No, my core, I'm still the person who
likes to cook for everybody, but I can't be the
only one who does it. Yes, I actually can be
more selfless in a reciprocal relationship than I could ever
(51:23):
be in one where I was expected to do all
and be all and be quietly happy, right right, in
a weird way, the more you're able to say, oh,
I deserve, I will also take for myself, the more
you can give to another, Is that right?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Yeah, And then it doesn't get set up as you're
dishonoring or robbing the other person, or the relationship is
that we want each other to be well, and so
the things that make you well.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Right, But it is.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Interesting as your name, people getting angry at women for
wanting to be happy, so just like really and including
messages from other women who have chosen misery and perseverance
over their own joy, and so they are outraged at
how dare you walk away and choose joy?
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Because for them it never felt like an option.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yes, I need you to say that again. Yeah, women,
particularly yes, negative elements of the patriarchy, right, get enraged
when other women choose joy, when other women get free.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Yes, yes, it's like, how dare you do that? I
didn't know we could do that. I don't think I
can do that. Doing that must be bad in order
for me to feel good about myself, and so for
us not to judge each other, like if someone chooses
to stay in an unhappy circumstance because their values tell
(53:03):
them loyalty is more important than happiness, that's your choice.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
That's your choice. That's your choice.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
And for those who choose to say, my mental health
is more important than being loyal to something that's killing me.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, that's the choice for me. The thing that I
heard myself say to a friend that then I couldn't
stop saying, was everybody says life's too short, but I'm
realizing life is way too long to do this.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Ahh. It's just too long to be in so much
pain and unfulfillment.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
And one of the important I think distinctions for people
is it's not that I can't do it, it's that
I choose not to be. I could just keep making
all the dinners, right, I could keep doing all of that,
But I'm gonna make another choice because I have many
(54:10):
more years and many more seasons. And here's the other
thing that I think people don't get. It actually sets
both people free. Right, somebody is gonna be happy with
that other person and not consider it suffering or perseverance.
So let them be free to find their person. Let
(54:31):
you be free to find yours, or to create the
life that you want. That you know, it's that scarcity
mindset that like we are all we could ever have,
and so we have to cling to it even though
it is joyless.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, but to say I know I deserve more than
this scarcity, it's kind of like jumping without seeing the net. Yes,
beneath you. It is terrifying, you know. Thank God for
hindsight because we always say, you know, it's twenty twenty.
I can see the terror and the courage that it
(55:12):
took for me and so many people I know who
were going through it at the same time, and friends
who are going through it now. How do you think
we can tap into our courage, our knowing that there
will be a net when we are so afraid? Because
(55:33):
to your point, so many people choose the pain they
know instead of the unknown, which could be joy. So
there must be something we have to shift right.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Right right.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
So a part of it is I call it a
faith walk, especially if you've never been treated wonderfully well
you say you've seen other people like I know it
exists in the world, but has it existed for me?
Then for a lot of people they would say no,
like this is the best of what I've had, even
(56:07):
though it's not good, And so can I have faith
for what I have yet to experience? Can I have
faith that it can exist for me? And I need
to say this because I am part of in therapy.
For me is like not giving false promises is like,
(56:27):
let's say you didn't meet mister or miss wonderful, do
you still want to be in this?
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Right?
Speaker 3 (56:36):
So it's not a matter of like, it's it's because
because if not, people will think instantly, well, where's my
new person? And it's like, well, how about where's my
new life? How about here's my joy? How about here's
my opportunity to begin my new chapter whatever that is
going to be.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Here's here's my opportunity to be my full self instead
of a reduced fractional version of me.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
That's right, that's right. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
So I think it's easier sometimes for people to imagine
that then, because yeah, if the other way, if it's
just hooked on too, like I'm instantly gonna be swooped
off my feet by someone amazing, and when months or
years passed they haven't met that person, then if you're like, oh,
I made a mistake, it's like, no, you were miserable.
(57:28):
You were miserable and unfulfilled, and so now you're living
a freer life and down the road, who knows how
far down the road you may connect with someone and
then you'll be able to say it was worth the wait.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah, yeah, patience, it really all sounds to me like
it comes back to a practice of patience for yourself.
Speaker 3 (57:51):
I will say, patience and co creating. So I'm not
just like pass sitting and waiting, right, because I have
people who are like that, who just like work remote,
stay home all day and it's like, who are you
going to meet the delivery person? I have to be
active while I'm being patient, but I'm engaging with life.
Speaker 1 (58:15):
Yeah, and sometimes just that just shifting where you physically
are putting yourself in new rooms, right, it can reveal
your whole life to you.
Speaker 2 (58:28):
Yes, yeah, it might have.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Been in front of you the whole time.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
I said this a lot in that very transformational year
as well, Like I just didn't see it until I
saw it. And I think you, if you're lucky, you
get put in spaces where you get to see something
you didn't expect.
Speaker 3 (58:51):
Right, Yes, it's true being open to the new. Can
my life be different than it is right now?
Speaker 2 (59:00):
Yes it can be.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yes, So these are big ideas. Courage is a big practice,
Bravery is a big practice of faith. Walk is a
big practice. What are some of the smaller more more
able to go on? Perhaps a to do list? Yes,
or a calendar, the daily practices that you would tell
(59:23):
people to incorporate for their mental self care or that
you incorporate for yours.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Yeah, so I'd like to say, create a morning ritual,
you know, set the tone for your day. And you know,
I had to discover that because basically, if you wake
up at the time you have to jump out of bed,
you've already started to stay anxious. Right, Oh, then we
need to set the alarm before I need to actually
(59:53):
be up, So I could have a season of stillness,
season of sacred connection. Whatever that's going to look like
for me. It might be listening to this podcast, it
might be journaling. It might be I'm waking up early
enough to be able to go for a walk. It
might be because I need time for prayer and meditation.
(01:00:15):
So start the day by feeding your spirit. I like
to say, you know, pick a theme song, US song
they like when you put it on, it makes you
want to dance, it makes you feel good inside. That way,
you're not going out in the world hungry and desperate
for the world to give you life. Like I show
(01:00:36):
up and then I can get for my overflow. Right,
I can't show up empty, so I have to be
intentional about pouring into myself. So yeah, start the day
in love with love with the sacred, and then I
would say, stretch into greater vulnerability in your relationships and friendships.
(01:01:00):
Tell somebody an uncommon truth today. You know, when someone
asks you, how are you doing? Give somebody a real answer,
and then we'll start to deepen our friendships and deepen
our connections.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
M give somebody a real answer.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
That's nice, right, it's really nice. Do you have a
morning song?
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Oh? I have several?
Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
Uh breathe it in Uh is beautiful chorus. People listen
to that. That just reminds you to take breath.
Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
And then my dear sister Joy Jones has a song
called beautiful, So it starts with this affirmation I'm beautiful,
Yes I am. And so just like serenading yourself in
the morning.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
M h. Yeah, that's so special and it strikes me
as simple in a way. These are simple ideas, but
what they do for your spirit and for the way
you begin your day profound right.
Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
It is about repeated practices over time, so in the moments,
and this is an important piece people need to keep
in mind. You want goals that are actually doable and attainable. Right,
Sometimes we set like these outrageously huge goals that are
a setup for disappointment, a setup for failure, and then
(01:02:34):
we give up. Right, So the common one I said,
I think I had it in the first book Homecoming,
that if last night, if you had fried chicken last night,
don't say, starting today, I'm a vegan.
Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
It's just it's not going to work. You start like
a meetless Monday.
Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
So set goals that seem small, but you repeat them
over time and habit becomes your life.
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
That's beautiful. Oh gosh, yeah, I just I'm sitting with
the thought of it, looking at the time and knowing
I need to ask you my next question, but just
taking a moment. So thank you for that. You know,
you are a person who strikes me as always growing
(01:03:23):
and learning and interrogating, and you know, giving to the
world certainly, And you've given us a new book. What
feels because I imagine when you think about the things
you want to do, you are a person who wants
to do for everyone. I love that you talk about
(01:03:47):
how to do for yourself. But what right now is
the book is coming out and the world is what
it is, and yet you choose to begin every day
in love with all these things you hold. What feels
like you're work in progress right now?
Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Well, I will say one of my what's a continuous
work is parenting. My eldest is a sophomore in college
now in cross country all the way in New York,
and then my youngest is in middle school. Uh, And
they come, you know, with very different personalities. So I
(01:04:26):
like to say, you know, my eldest made me a
very confident parent because.
Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Like she just kind of out.
Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
And then when my son came along, I had had
to get some humility.
Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Like oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
So continuing to be open to learning, like learning them
and learning myself one of the things that really nourishes me.
We talk about like what are practices we can do.
I have a sisterhood circle called the Gathering uh, and
we get together about once a month, either in or
(01:05:00):
online and just pour into each other. And it's so
important to me that it's not a space where like
I'm doing all the pouring and people are just receiving.
Like it is a real sisterhood circle where if we're
having a rough month, we say that and get the encouragement.
(01:05:22):
If you know, we have something to celebrate. We share
that and so, yeah, sisterhood is such a gift and
I continue to humble myself and develop as a parent.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah it feels beautiful. Thank you
so much for coming on today. It's just been an
absolute joy.
Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Thank you for having me, for the wonderful conversation, and
for the beauty of your transparency and your testimony. I
know that as you share your story it's set so
many people free. And I love the range of us
talking from personal relationships to social justice, because all of
it is necessary.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
It is, it is. Thank you so much
Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi,
friends and listeners. I am absolutely elated today to be
(00:20):
joined by someone that I look up to learn from,
am in awe of, and honestly who gives me so
much inspiration, such reminders to be courageous, and also often
helps me give myself permission to be a little more
patient with my life. Today's guest is doctor Tama Bryant.
(00:40):
She is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister
who is leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas,
and overcoming stress and depression. And she manages to do
it with an energy and a smile and a voice
that makes everyone around her take it deep, breath, lean in,
(01:01):
and feel seen. Doctor Tema is the author of the
newly released book Matters of the Heart, which aims to
empower readers to connect with themselves and others, delving into
topics like control issues, emotional and availability, and relationships both
with others and with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming, came
(01:22):
out in twenty twenty two, and I know so many
of us needed it, loved it, cherished it. This book,
Matters of the Heart is absolutely beautiful. It draws on
the wisdom of science and sacredness lived experience, and helps
readers tend to, as doctor Tama calls it, the garden
of their hearts. She encourages us to build our best
(01:44):
relational lives because love is not a level playing field,
and improving your relationship with yourself is the first step
in leveling the field and living a life that brings
you joy. Let's dive in with doctor Tama. Doctor Tamin,
(02:09):
I'm just elated to have you here, and I sort
of feel like my favorite first question to ask everyone
goes a layer deeper because today I get to ask
it of you. So much of your research helps us
understand our connection to ourselves. And when I sit with
someone like yourself who has these lists of accolades and
(02:31):
incredible you know, books published and all of these things,
I'm always curious, if you could bend the spacetime continuum
and sit across from yourself at eight or nine years old,
if you would see the woman that you are today
in that little girl. And I think I'm particularly thrilled
(02:54):
to hear your answer because so much of what you're
doing in the new book is helping us understand and
how the younger versions of ourselves affect who we are today.
So all of that said and no pressure, but I
can't wait to hear how you would feel with your
nine year.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Old Yes, I love that question.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And to my nine year old self, I would say
something I commonly say today to clients, to mintees, to
social media, and that is you are worthy. You are worthy,
You are worthy. There are so many messages that bombard
(03:39):
us from very early on, especially as girls and as women,
to feel insufficient, inadequate, to feel that we have to
be something we are not, to believe that we are
not enough. And so I would say to the nine
year old me, you are more more than enough, you
(04:01):
are worthy, and you will align with people who see you,
so don't lose sight of yourself. Yeah, yeah, And I
do want to say there are different domains of self esteem,
different areas of self esteem. So academically I was an
(04:24):
a student and felt very good about that, and then
in terms of like gifts or talents, I love dancing
and poetry and felt very positive about that. But then
when we get to the realities of sexism and racism,
they do a number on the self esteem, the body image,
(04:46):
the social esteem of ourselves when you feel like you
are not chosen or not sufficient, and so when you've
had those experiences of and it can result in you breadcrumbing,
accepting the minimum, not being aware that you're deserving of
(05:08):
the feast, even if the feast has not yet shown that.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
M Yeah, that's a big one, right. The idea that
you are worthy of being patient with your life, because
there's a lot of talk about oh, you're worthy of this,
and how can you love another person if you don't
love yourself, and it all feels a little bumper stickery
(05:34):
to me.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And the notion that you can be sure you deserve
something you haven't seen yet, but you know it exists
because you've certainly seen other people find it. That's a
kind of nuance and a layered ability to look at
(05:58):
time differently that I don't think we are encouraged to
focus on, especially as women and especially in a capitalist
world where productivity is sort of treated as sacred. To
be and allow yourself this space to be is kind
of a radical act of self acceptance.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
It is it is the basis of what's called liberation psychology.
So liberation psychology requires that we pay attention to contexts.
When people are ignoring contexts, they would say, the problem
is just in your mind, like why don't you love
your body? Why don't you love your face? Why don't
(06:43):
you love your hair, as if you have just created
these thoughts in the abstract, as opposed to the powerful
messaging that gets sent forward that says you have to
be something other than what you are to be love,
to be worthy, to be respected, to be appreciated. And
(07:06):
so when we dismantle those and we speak truth to
the fact of of course, this is a struggle for
you because there have been all of these systems set
up to make you believe you are unworthy.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
So the fact that you wrestle.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
With it is not like, oh, you just need to
love you. It's a as you name, it's a radical
revolutionary act of resistance for me to push through all
of these messages and say I still choose me, I
still celebrate me.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, and you've just illuminated something for me. I wonder.
I would imagine you've had this a lot, because you're
such a profound speaker and a profound writer and such
a top tier academic that you also have the research
to back up the poetry that you often give to
the world. And many years ago I was asked what
(08:04):
I would say to my younger self and what came
to me, And I didn't realize how badly I needed
to hear it until I said it out loud. Was
worry less about being someone else's definition of enough. You
already are. And I consider myself. You know, we talk
(08:25):
a lot about privilege in the world, and we have
to to begin to understand as you're referring to these
systems that treat people differently. I consider myself to have
had the great privilege of a lot of exposure to
a lot of people who live different than me and
look like do look different than me for my whole life.
And one of the things in groups of women that
(08:48):
you know we all do the work with when I
look at women who look like me, who might be
newer to some of these spaces, I just say, you
know how hard it is to move through the world
in your body as a woman. Imagine how hard it
is for my best friend Nia, for doctor Tama, who
I say with today, for the other women in our
circles that we know to move through the world as
(09:10):
women and as black women, or Brown women or South
Asian women, like the piling on of what you have
to squeeze through. You don't get to be passing in
any way. You don't get to take off your identity.
And it's why I think when we have to ask
(09:34):
people to look deeper. Even when you talk about loving
your hair, you know the idea that there could be
resistance to the Crown Act, to a law that says
you cannot discriminate against your employees for how they wear
their hair. Yes, people who haven't experienced it don't realize
it's part of the menu of microaggressions that you're being
(09:57):
faced with every day. And so I wish and I
think part of the reason I always cherish finding you
in the sphere of what my algorithm serves to me
when I pick up my phone, it always knows I
want to hear from you, is that you're reminding us
(10:18):
all instead of competing in the I'm more hurt than
you Olympics, to say I know what hurt is. How
can I acknowledge my own and how can I be
sensitive to the different kinds of hurt that exists in
the people around me? So maybe we can all heal
together and I think it's a profound practice for humans,
(10:42):
and in a moment like this, it's an incredibly important
awareness to carry as we try to push back against
this pendulum swing back into deep, overt, cruel, systemic oppression.
So you're doing heart work, You're doing like nation saving
work as.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Well as Yeah, it really is about recognizing how much
our liberation is intertwined. And when we don't see that,
we treat it like a competition, which then says you
have to be erased so that I can be seen.
(11:24):
And when people act like that, then it is the
misperception that if you have a month, or you have
a day, or you have a speaker, that somehow that
is an attack on me, instead of I love that
phrase of the sky is big enough for all the
stars to shine.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So there is room to talk about all of our
histories which are interwoven. There is room to talk about
our literature, our art, our beauty, our contributions, our wisdoms,
our spiritualities.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
There is space. And so it is that scarcity mindset
and agreed mindset that says there will only be room
for one and that one must be me.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, it strikes me because you are able to hold
all of these things. You are a professional at the dialectics,
you understand all of these things can be true at
the same time. And to be the psychologist that you
are and come from a deep generational faith tradition in
(12:32):
your family to be both a psychologist and a minister.
So many people assume that faith and science are diametrically
opposed instead of actually, when the scope is widened, able
to hold and support one another. How did you How
did you get here? When did it click for you
(12:53):
entering into academia or as a young student that you
wanted to carry both of these worlds together.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, it feels more true, more real, more authentic to me,
instead of what we would call the false dichotomy.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Right of which one are you? Do you appreciate science
or are you a spiritual person? And it's who said
I had to choose because if I'm a spiritual person,
then I understand the lessons that are encoded in nature.
And if I sit and appreciate the observations, then I
(13:33):
understand the sacred can work through my being as a psychologist.
That it's not an either or like are you going
to pray or go to therapy? You can pray your
way to therapy.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You can pray therapy, you can pray after therapy.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So rejecting and resisting these false choice is and I
would say, you know, a part of that is from
an afrocentric perspective is fundamentally being holistic. And so we're
holistic and we honor the mind, the body, the heart,
(14:14):
the spirit, the community. And I used to live these
kind of separate sels. So when I was with my
spiritual friends, then that's what I would talk about. When
I was with my artsy friends, then we talk about
dance and poetry. When I was with my academic folks,
and we would talk about the latest articles. And I
(14:35):
will say I did not maximize and I'm still not
at the maximum, but I did not maximize my possibility
until I started integrating those multiple cells. And when I
did that and showed up as my authentic self, it
(14:55):
freed and liberated and gave other people permission to say
me too. So, for example, I was a past president
for the Society of the Psychology of Women, and you know,
a big part of that work is around feminist psychology.
And so when you're president, we have a budget and
(15:16):
you can set different initiatives, And one of the initiatives
that I did was on women's psychology, Spirituality, religion and faith.
And before I did that initiative, there was kind of
this unspoken rule that feminists would be against any kind
of religious tradition because of patriarchy and the oppression of
(15:40):
women in violence against women. And so when I announced
the initiative, we had like a break in the board
meeting and a number of board members came up to
me and we're whispering, saying, I'm episcopalia in there, I'm Catholic,
I'm Jewish, and it's like, why are we whispering? It
is believing the falsehood that in order for my politic
(16:06):
to be important to me, I had to have surrendered
my faith, and it's just not true.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And so it's been beautiful to be a bridge.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
To create spaces and hold spaces where we can be
our totality, the fullness of who we are, and not
have to leave parts of ourselves in the margins.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah. Well, and what strikes me is so important about
beginning to unify spaces like that again, is it actually
gives room for them not only to evolve, but to
reclaim their full selves. Yes, you know, I grew up
in a family full of Catholics, Jews, and atheists, so
(16:53):
our holiday dinners are wild as you can imagine. You know,
by the time I got to college, I'd already spent
you know, time taking college courses on Islamic studies. I
really wanted to understand, you know, how are all these
faith traditions so intertwined. And for me, it's never lost
on me that when the faith tradition, whatever religion it is,
(17:17):
also becomes a business and there's profit to be made,
then the faith tradition becomes more patriarchal. Women are cut
out of leadership, often cut out of text, and the
energy changes. And so to your point about an afrocentric
methodology of being, to become more holistically feminist, more holistically
(17:42):
community centered, more holistically devout. In filling the blank faith,
you actually become more inclusive. Yes, yes, And it's like
it's like we've gotten stuck in our human experience down
here in the weeds, and we're forgetting that there's a
whole you know, canopy that we're meant to understand and
(18:08):
navigate together.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, So that reclamation, the decolonization, the deconstruction you know,
what are the lies the myths that we were presented
with as truth and as absolute and give ourselves space
to interrogate that and to mean it's not that I
(18:33):
have to throw away the whole thing. I throw away
the version of it that was given to me that
dishonored me. Yeah, I tap in two. There are a
whole tradition of people before me who were committed to
we say liberation theology. What frees us, what lifts us,
(18:53):
What actually allows me to enter into spaces and feel
loved there and feel seen? And if I have never
entered into such a space, how do I create that?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
To create sacred space, we would.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Say, even on your podcast right now, this can be
holy ground, This can be sanctuary and we are deserving
of that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Wow. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The idea.
It's a big topic, right how to how to unify
the world, make people treat each other more holistically, less competitively.
(19:41):
We would be remiss not to put it in the
context of what's currently happening in our country. You know,
this backswing as we were discussing earlier into this, you know,
very right wing discriminatory fascism, and everything you're saying perfectly
(20:02):
fits over the scope of the world, but also of
the internal world of one of an individual. And I
think in periods like this where the world at large
feels so traumatizing to so many people, people are trying
to manage stress. They are absolutely overwhelmed. It's chronic. How
(20:24):
do you begin to give whether it's like you said,
your mentees or clients or folks who you talk to online,
how do you help people get to the tip of
the spear, put that first poke in the veil and
start to see what's on the other side. Where do
(20:45):
you tell folks to begin?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Yeah, such an important question, especially in the times we
are living in. It's necessary and so I use the
term home coming to come to myself is to tell
myself the truth. And when I tell myself the truth,
I don't have to censor, judge, or apologize for what
(21:12):
I feel.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And so.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
With that in mind, for those who see the landscape
and are exhausted, that makes sense speak that this is exhausting,
for those who are disappointed, for those who are outraged.
You know, sometimes people present this notion that to have
to be mentally or spiritually well like you're just in
(21:36):
this place of not being moved by anything, there's some
outrageous things happening. So a healthy response is actually outrage.
It means that I recognize that things are out of order,
that people are being dishonored, that people are being dehumanized.
And so you know, I would start with allow yourself
(21:59):
to feel it. Tell yourself and those within your circle
who you trust, what is stirred up for you in
this season. Because what we often do, and this is
again you know, from this capitalist notion of like I
have to be on and perform and because I'm measured
by my labor, is then we pretend how are you
(22:23):
I'm fine and you I'm fine, right, So we shake
that up. We disrupt that by.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
How are you? I'm mad? How are you? I'm disappointed?
How were you?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I'm tired? How are you I'm confused about the way forward?
Oh you too, Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out too.
So our truth sets us free, and that also allows
us to mobilize, because you cannot respond to something you
do not acknowledge. And then it's for us to step
(23:00):
out of these silos of only fighting for my small group.
Because as long as we are divided and see each
other as enemy or competition, then we are disempowered. But
you know, successful movements happen when they are intergenerational, when
(23:21):
they are intercultural, when people show up from all over
all over the place, and the ways in which things
are moving tap into that necessity. Can I see your
struggle and see mine versus? What has happened is people
thought some people thought that this would not affect them,
(23:45):
so they were comfortable with it. It's like, Oh, if
it's only going to affect the undocumented, I'm okay. Or
if it's only going to affect LGBTQ, I'm okay. And
so then as it continues to roll out and gets
closer to people's front door, then it's like, oh.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Wait, what are we going to do about this? Yeah?
What are we going to do about this?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Do you think that? And I ask because I don't
think it's easy to find people who would readily say, oh,
I assumed this would just affect these people. But do
you think the human I don't want to say tendency,
but perhaps frequent human pattern of Oh, if it's just
(24:33):
happening over there, then me and mine are all right.
Do you think that comes from the kind of generational
truth that we carry that humanity has come with such
violence and such cruelty and such terror, as it has
also innovated and created and done beautiful things in the world.
(24:55):
Do you think humans have an inherent that can be
so powerful that they can run from collective reality?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
I think instead of it being inherent, I actually think
it's taught, and that people are taught that these people,
whichever however we want to label them, are the problem,
that they're the reason you're not succeeding, that they're the
ones that are taking your jobs, that they're the ones
(25:32):
that are ruining our neighborhood. And so it is. It
is taught, and then it is repeated. And so the
excuse people will give, they won't say I don't care
about them. They'll say, this is going to be good
for the economy, right, They'll say that, you know, I'm
(25:55):
making a financial decision, and so this is gonna be
and then like, oh, well, the price of eggs, well,
the price of brig well, the employment, uh you know.
But but what people have to wrestle with is actually
none of what is being done was a secret or hidden.
(26:20):
It was announced, and so uh so people were fine
with it. They were fine with it. They were fine
with the agenda because they thought, I'm going to get
rich and we're going to get rid of all the
bad people. And uh, you know it has been I
(26:41):
would say maybe throughout our history, our societal history of
convincing impoverished and middle income people that they will benefit. Uh,
the more wealthy people are happy because as long as
you can see someone is beneath you, then you're gonna
(27:05):
do great. And it is a historical lesson that people
have to continue to learn that some people who claim
to be for me or not for me, and some
people who have been presented to me as my enemies
are actually my greatest potential allies.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah. Yeah, some of the studies confuse me. I remember,
you know, the guys the rules of economic anxiety, and
we all know what that is, as you've just so
eloquently explained. There was a maybe it was around the midterms,
(27:49):
a study that came out talking about how they would
give these examples to people and say, well, you and
all your coworkers can make eighty thousand dollars a year,
or you can make one hundred thousand dollar a year,
but those four guys on your team are actually going
to make one hundred and twenty because they're technically doing
things in the office that are more management level than you.
(28:09):
But you know, twenty thousand dollar rais for you and
forty thousand dollar rays for them. And most people said no,
we should all make eighty, even though that gave them less.
And I was fascinated by why do we want to
compete instead of all continue to succeed? Why do you
want to hold yourself and you and your coworker back
(28:31):
instead of watch them soar and then earn your way
into soaring. And when we start to look at all this,
you know, the need to withhold from others is often
the root of what hurts us. And we see it
(28:52):
happening in this wide landscape, and what happens without is
reflected within. And one of the things that gave me
this moment of I kind of gasped when I read it,
to be honest, when I started the book, And I'm
going to just like do the thing on the podcast
and hold up this beautiful book that you've given to
(29:15):
us because a lot of people, I think, struggle with
having to learn or you should know this by now
and then they have shame if they don't, so then
they don't want to learn anything about it. And we
see it a lot in the world of trying to
teach generational lessons and social justice and our history, especially
(29:37):
as they're banning books. And when I picked up your
book to get ready for today, I gasped really early
when you said, if you want to read this book
in the order of chapters that call to you, go ahead.
I just ask that you do read all of it.
(29:59):
Never have I I've ever had a teacher at any
level of my personal or my academic life tell me
I could read the syllabus out of order. And I
was like, I'm a forty two year old woman, and
I was like, I just got a permission s lift
to bring the rules. And it really it gave me
joy that made me laugh in my kitchen. And then
(30:22):
I went, wait a second, what if we did this
more for each other out in the world and said
you might know this, but you might not know that.
And here's just a thing I think you might want
to know. Come to this at your own pace, come
to this in your own time. How did you get there,
being as wise as you are about all of it?
(30:46):
And the generations of all of it, and the connections
of all of it, and why people say what they
do because they don't really want to say what they think,
and where the fear comes from, And I mean it's
the systems are big, and you manage to give a
world of permission for every one of one person who
wants to grow with you. How did you figure out
(31:10):
how to do that? And and was it that notion
of homecoming that opened it for you?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It is thank you first of all for that example.
And I would say a part of what you know,
I approached the writing as a as a clinician or
as a healer and recognizing if someone looks in that
table of contents and it's about, you know, a chapter
(31:40):
in the back on healing after infidelity and they've just
been cheated on, like they want to get there. They
can't even hear the rest right or how to let
go of someone who doesn't love you, Like that's that's
in the forefront of your heart, your mind, your spirit,
And a part of you know, liberation work or womanist
(32:03):
or feminist work is acknowledging the wisdom of the people
around the table. So like that other approach is to
assume I know everything and you know nothing, and so
I'm going to instruct you. But instead right or you know,
and that's not empowering. The empowerment is tap into your
(32:26):
inner wisdom, tap into what you know, you know what
you need right now, trust yourself with what you need
right now, and once you get what you urgently need,
know that the rest of it is there for you
and can serve you. And one of the ways that
I learned the importance of predictions, you know, sharing with people.
(32:49):
Predictions is predictions and permission is in therapy. As a
trauma psychologist, if people come in to thay therapy and
in the moment they feel inspired or they feel safe
and they share something very personal or very vulnerable, it
(33:10):
is a chance that in the moment it felt good,
but afterwards they're going to replay the moment and say
to themselves like I said too much, or what is
doctor Tamer think of me? Or I'm not going back now,
I'm embarrassed. And so at the end of a session
where people have really revealed themselves, I'll give them that
prediction and say to them, I'm so glad what you
(33:33):
shared today.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
And at some.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Point this week you're likely going to think, I don't
know if I want to go back, and I invite
you to push past that and show up anyway. And
if next week you don't want to talk about what
you just said, you can say that and we'll talk
about something else. So then people will come the next
time and say, you know you were right. I was
(33:58):
thinking about not coming, but I remember what you say.
And so for us to walk in our mutual like
we get to co create it together, and we get
to honor and discover that we do know some things
about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
And now a word from our sponsors. One of the
things I appreciate about the example you've just given is
that it's kind of a meditation on patience again, not
(34:39):
just give yourself permission to be patient for life to
show up for you, but also give yourself permission to
have a burst of observation and then need some time,
need some time to go on your morning walk and
let it reverberate around in your body and talk about
something else, and then come back to it when you're
(35:00):
body and spirit have digested it.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
You know, there's a there's a weird byproduct for all
the great things that I think you know, the internet
has given to us. It gave you to me as
a viewer when I first found you. For example, one
of the things I fear it's done, And I just
had a conversation with another artist about this recently. Now
(35:26):
you can't do anything without it feeling or likely being recorded.
You don't have time to discuss something, think about it,
read an article, read a book, mature your opinion, and
then talk about it again. One video clip, one clickbait,
one bad rehearsal for a performing artist of a song,
(35:48):
one and it blows up your life. Right, And sometimes
I worry that people are missing the ability to be vulnerable,
grow and then return as fuller versions of themselves.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, that is such a good point of being accepting,
being called in right, accepting and appreciating growing pains. What
I like to say is when we get it wrong
and someone shares it with us, what a gift like
(36:24):
they could have not said it, and then we continue
on our way not knowing that something was harmful or
offensive or inaccurate. And so we want to always be teachable,
you know, and to have that cultural humility, you know,
because now what they're trying to do is say if
(36:45):
you make the majority uncomfortable, you have now done something illegal.
And it's like discomfort is illegal, right, It will be
uncomfortable to learn what you had not I been told
it is uncomfortable, but you wrestle with that and can
(37:05):
grow from it. The other thing that I think is
important about us giving ourselves permission to honor where we
are in the process is it also is teaching us
sovereignty and empowerment in order to have boundaries. Right, when
I have to just obey, then it requires no awareness
(37:31):
on my part. But when I have to, as you
name like take, I like to call it sacred pause.
Let me pause and consider what do I think, what
do I feel? What do I want to say? And
I like to use the phrase the holiness of no,
because for women, or religious people or trauma survivors, we
(37:56):
are often talked out of our no, and we're in
that people pleasing mode of what do people want me
to be?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
But it's not authentic though.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Instead I get to embrace the holiness of no, that's
not where I am right now, or no I don't
have a capacity for that, or just no, I choose
not to, and so to give ourselves permission to grow,
to change, to shift. That's the way we heal.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, And I love that you relate it to learning
about your impact in the world, sometimes hopefully for good
and sometimes where you don't mean it to be negative
for others. And also this idea of even how we
move through the kind of you know, staircase of our
own experience and reflection. You know, I've had the version
(38:53):
of what you just talked about with my own therapist
where we get to the root of something really hard
that happened and I want to talk about it. It's
time to talk about it, And the next week I'm like,
I need fifteen minutes of talking about something else.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And where I am about that is Yeah, now I've
thought about it every day for seven days, and I'm
mad all over again. And I'm mad at the person
who was in the room and watched it happen and
didn't say anything. And I'm mad. And you have to
go through these things. But you're right. The expectation that
you can just show up and be ready for anything
(39:30):
at any time, it is it is a that is
a boundaryless society, that is a behavior that is lacking
respect for another person's process, and I think the more
we can talk about it, you know how to just
(39:51):
expand what you can hold, including for others, Like imagine
what a more gentle world it would be when you
went through working on the book. Because one of the
things that I love about this, you know, you've coached
so many of us, whether personally or digitally in community
(40:13):
on you know, resilience, on the sacred pause, on expansion,
and a lot of what you talk about in Matters
of the Heart is relationship, and it's relationship to your partner,
to your family, to yourself. Yes, is there a reason
(40:35):
that you chose to use relationship as the container because
it feels as a reader like it was very much
on purpose, and it's not just because people are in
relationships with each other.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Yes, it is the biggest question and most frequent challenge
that people show up with. And it's also a big
predictor for our well being. So when you feel well loved,
well cared for, when you have that sense of belonging,
(41:13):
that can be a protective factor against depression, against anxiety,
against diction dealing with big life transitions. It's like a
moving cross country but I'm calling my friends right so
that can help us, and at the same time, heartbreak
can be devastating and have a ripple effect in the
(41:36):
other areas of our lives. People can be very successful,
let's say academically or professionally, and then if the partnership
is in ruins or the friendship ends, it can disrupt everything.
It can take our sleep, take our appetite, take our
(41:56):
self esteem. And so it is very important both in
terms of thriving and recovering from the difficulties of life.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And in the book you talk a lot about emotional unavailability.
How do you identify if you are emotionally unavailable or if,
as you referenced earlier, you have to let go of
someone who maybe does not love you in the way
they said they did. That feels like an emotional unavailability
(42:33):
or maybe better categorized as a dishonesty. I'll let you decide.
But how do you find kind of the root of
that problem?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Yeah, so, you know, with ourselves, we kind of check
in check ourselves to see how real, how authentic am
I in my relationships and in my friendships. Some of
us can show up for other people when we're feeling strong,
(43:04):
when we're feeling shiny, when we're feeling successful, and then
when we're feeling challenged, we disappear right. So you to
ask yourself, when I'm struggling, do I reach out to
my circle and let people support me, or do I
isolate because I only believe people can see me when
I'm at my best. So that kind of emotional one
(43:29):
note is emotional unavailability that I can't be open to
the full spectrum of my feelings in the presence of
another right. So it's one thing if I say, oh,
you know my coworkers or people I don't know well,
or strangers on the street, Sure with them, I could
(43:51):
do public relations of how's your day? Oh great, how's yours?
But am I talking to my family and friends and
partner that way? So you want to ask yourself your
level of honesty, which is our level of intimacy in
terms of these relationships. And we also want to think
(44:11):
about the ways we may sabotage connections or our discomfort
with being seen. How does it feel to me when
people are actually paying attention right, when they observe things
about me that I'm not used to people seeing.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
And then in terms of in relationship accepting, when people's
actions either don't match their words or when their actions
don't match my fantasy, because sometimes it's not even their words.
Sometimes they never said anything, but you know, we created
(44:55):
this picture of like, oh, we're going to either be
besties or this is going to be my partner. Yeah,
they're not on board with that. So everybody in the
relationship has to know they're in it. It can't just
be one sided, right, right.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. I guess everybody also has a point where
some of those things click in right for whatever reason.
(45:33):
It really makes me think about the dissolution of my
last relationship, which you know, to add insult to injury,
was out in the world, which is never an easy
way to process something, but you know, kind of comes
with the job. The thing that I was so profound
for me, especially as a woman, knowing how so many
(45:57):
of us have been taught to be good and his
smile and to serve others and take care of everyone
else in the room and do do all of the things.
Be a good soldier, be a good leader on set,
be a good daughter, be whatever. The thing that finally
made me stop saying, well, maybe if I compromised more.
(46:19):
Maybe if my job were less difficult, maybe if I, maybe,
if I, maybe, if I and made me go, wait
a second, what about what's supposed to be for me
instead of what I'm supposed to.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Do for Yes?
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yes, And the aha moment for me was being on
the precipice of becoming a mom and going, oh, every
single thing I have accepted for myself, I would never ever,
except for my child, I would never ever. I would
(46:53):
never tell my best friend to compromise more. I would
say to her, you're being asked to compromise yourself, not
to compromise with another. And there was something about realizing, oh,
I have gone through the spectrum of you know, in
(47:13):
small ways to unacceptable big ways. I have always kind
of compromised myself. And I thought I learned how to
not do that, you know, seven years ago, and here
I am realizing I'm still doing it, and it looks
good on the outside and it's all smoke and mirrors,
(47:34):
and it was this kind of revelatory. I sort of
felt like I felt like internally I had one of
those experiences like when we used to watch the videos
of the old hotels in Las Vegas, get demoed like
the cool old buildings that would blow up on the
inside and then collapse, because then they you know, they
were building the skyscrapers like that was my thing. I
(47:56):
was like, oh, i've the whole thing has to come down.
And it made me have conversations with my parents at
forty that I thought we'd had and achieved, and look
at us doing the work at thirty four. All these things.
It made me realize there was a whole basement layer
I'd not gone through yet. And it was so painful
(48:21):
and weirdly also the most joyous, the most oxygenated. I mean,
I just took such a deep breath even thinking about it.
It was so hard and so good, and it was
the thing that had to happen. But I had to
stop trying to be good, and I had to stop
(48:42):
trying to take care of everyone else in the room
before myself. The metaphor I gave myself was like, stop
cooking a dinner for thirty people and then serving yourself
the scraps as the thirtieth person to plate her food.
You cooked the food, You make your plate first, you
eat first.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
But it took me for decades to feel that I
deserved that, and that is when I feel to what
you were saying earlier, that's when I feel like my
life arrived for me. And I was like, oh, okay,
it's just been a slow burn.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yes, but it's here. Ah.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
I love that testimony. And it's also deeply understandable because
we get celebrated for erasing ourselves. You know, people will
hold you up and say, you're a good partner, you're
a good friend, you have no needs, you.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Have no needs, you're so selfless.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yes, yes, it gets celebrated, and so of course you
lived like that, right, And I think that's the part
to take in because if not, we can beat ourselves
up about, oh my god, why did I do this?
For decades because it was taught and reinforced and it
was modeled and celebrated that this is what you because
(50:03):
nobody wants to be a selfish woman, right, right, And
so then when you're like, wait a minute, we're getting
the bad into the stick here, right, I suppose this
should be mutual, This should be reciprocal.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
I should be that. You know.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
What I like to say is if you make them
your priority and they make themselves their priority, who's looking
out for you. Right, So I can only be selfless
in the presence of someone else who is selfless, and
then we are mutually nourishing each other.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Yes, well, and you're saying something that I think gets
missed in this self love discourse, love yourself first before
you can love another. We talked about it earlier. There's this.
I've seen backlash, you know, both for some of what
I've shared. I see it with Chelsea Hamler talking about
choosing herself in a relationship that wasn't good. I see it.
(50:59):
It's on the end, not a lot like oh, happiness
isn't the metric? And how selfish that you and et cetera,
et cetera. No, my core, I'm still the person who
likes to cook for everybody, but I can't be the
only one who does it. Yes, I actually can be
more selfless in a reciprocal relationship than I could ever
(51:23):
be in one where I was expected to do all
and be all and be quietly happy, right right, in
a weird way, the more you're able to say, oh,
I deserve, I will also take for myself, the more
you can give to another, Is that right?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Yeah, And then it doesn't get set up as you're
dishonoring or robbing the other person, or the relationship is
that we want each other to be well, and so
the things that make you well.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Right, But it is.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Interesting as your name, people getting angry at women for
wanting to be happy, so just like really and including
messages from other women who have chosen misery and perseverance
over their own joy, and so they are outraged at
how dare you walk away and choose joy?
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Because for them it never felt like an option.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yes, I need you to say that again. Yeah, women,
particularly yes, negative elements of the patriarchy, right, get enraged
when other women choose joy, when other women get free.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Yes, yes, it's like, how dare you do that? I
didn't know we could do that. I don't think I
can do that. Doing that must be bad in order
for me to feel good about myself, and so for
us not to judge each other, like if someone chooses
to stay in an unhappy circumstance because their values tell
(53:03):
them loyalty is more important than happiness, that's your choice.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
That's your choice. That's your choice.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
And for those who choose to say, my mental health
is more important than being loyal to something that's killing me.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, that's the choice for me. The thing that I
heard myself say to a friend that then I couldn't
stop saying, was everybody says life's too short, but I'm
realizing life is way too long to do this.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Ahh. It's just too long to be in so much
pain and unfulfillment.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
And one of the important I think distinctions for people
is it's not that I can't do it, it's that
I choose not to be. I could just keep making
all the dinners, right, I could keep doing all of that,
But I'm gonna make another choice because I have many
(54:10):
more years and many more seasons. And here's the other
thing that I think people don't get. It actually sets
both people free. Right, somebody is gonna be happy with
that other person and not consider it suffering or perseverance.
So let them be free to find their person. Let
(54:31):
you be free to find yours, or to create the
life that you want. That you know, it's that scarcity
mindset that like we are all we could ever have,
and so we have to cling to it even though
it is joyless.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, but to say I know I deserve more than
this scarcity, it's kind of like jumping without seeing the net. Yes,
beneath you. It is terrifying, you know. Thank God for
hindsight because we always say, you know, it's twenty twenty.
I can see the terror and the courage that it
(55:12):
took for me and so many people I know who
were going through it at the same time, and friends
who are going through it now. How do you think
we can tap into our courage, our knowing that there
will be a net when we are so afraid? Because
(55:33):
to your point, so many people choose the pain they
know instead of the unknown, which could be joy. So
there must be something we have to shift right.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Right right.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
So a part of it is I call it a
faith walk, especially if you've never been treated wonderfully well
you say you've seen other people like I know it
exists in the world, but has it existed for me?
Then for a lot of people they would say no,
like this is the best of what I've had, even
(56:07):
though it's not good, And so can I have faith
for what I have yet to experience? Can I have
faith that it can exist for me? And I need
to say this because I am part of in therapy.
For me is like not giving false promises is like,
(56:27):
let's say you didn't meet mister or miss wonderful, do
you still want to be in this?
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Right?
Speaker 3 (56:36):
So it's not a matter of like, it's it's because
because if not, people will think instantly, well, where's my
new person? And it's like, well, how about where's my
new life? How about here's my joy? How about here's
my opportunity to begin my new chapter whatever that is
going to be.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Here's here's my opportunity to be my full self instead
of a reduced fractional version of me.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
That's right, that's right. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
So I think it's easier sometimes for people to imagine
that then, because yeah, if the other way, if it's
just hooked on too, like I'm instantly gonna be swooped
off my feet by someone amazing, and when months or
years passed they haven't met that person, then if you're like, oh,
I made a mistake, it's like, no, you were miserable.
(57:28):
You were miserable and unfulfilled, and so now you're living
a freer life and down the road, who knows how
far down the road you may connect with someone and
then you'll be able to say it was worth the wait.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah, yeah, patience, it really all sounds to me like
it comes back to a practice of patience for yourself.
Speaker 3 (57:51):
I will say, patience and co creating. So I'm not
just like pass sitting and waiting, right, because I have
people who are like that, who just like work remote,
stay home all day and it's like, who are you
going to meet the delivery person? I have to be
active while I'm being patient, but I'm engaging with life.
Speaker 1 (58:15):
Yeah, and sometimes just that just shifting where you physically
are putting yourself in new rooms, right, it can reveal
your whole life to you.
Speaker 2 (58:28):
Yes, yeah, it might have.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Been in front of you the whole time.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
I said this a lot in that very transformational year
as well, Like I just didn't see it until I
saw it. And I think you, if you're lucky, you
get put in spaces where you get to see something
you didn't expect.
Speaker 3 (58:51):
Right, Yes, it's true being open to the new. Can
my life be different than it is right now?
Speaker 2 (59:00):
Yes it can be.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yes, So these are big ideas. Courage is a big practice,
Bravery is a big practice of faith. Walk is a
big practice. What are some of the smaller more more
able to go on? Perhaps a to do list? Yes,
or a calendar, the daily practices that you would tell
(59:23):
people to incorporate for their mental self care or that
you incorporate for yours.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Yeah, so I'd like to say, create a morning ritual,
you know, set the tone for your day. And you know,
I had to discover that because basically, if you wake
up at the time you have to jump out of bed,
you've already started to stay anxious. Right, Oh, then we
need to set the alarm before I need to actually
(59:53):
be up, So I could have a season of stillness,
season of sacred connection. Whatever that's going to look like
for me. It might be listening to this podcast, it
might be journaling. It might be I'm waking up early
enough to be able to go for a walk. It
might be because I need time for prayer and meditation.
(01:00:15):
So start the day by feeding your spirit. I like
to say, you know, pick a theme song, US song
they like when you put it on, it makes you
want to dance, it makes you feel good inside. That way,
you're not going out in the world hungry and desperate
for the world to give you life. Like I show
(01:00:36):
up and then I can get for my overflow. Right,
I can't show up empty, so I have to be
intentional about pouring into myself. So yeah, start the day
in love with love with the sacred, and then I
would say, stretch into greater vulnerability in your relationships and friendships.
(01:01:00):
Tell somebody an uncommon truth today. You know, when someone
asks you, how are you doing? Give somebody a real answer,
and then we'll start to deepen our friendships and deepen
our connections.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
M give somebody a real answer.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
That's nice, right, it's really nice. Do you have a
morning song?
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Oh? I have several?
Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
Uh breathe it in Uh is beautiful chorus. People listen
to that. That just reminds you to take breath.
Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
And then my dear sister Joy Jones has a song
called beautiful, So it starts with this affirmation I'm beautiful,
Yes I am. And so just like serenading yourself in
the morning.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
M h. Yeah, that's so special and it strikes me
as simple in a way. These are simple ideas, but
what they do for your spirit and for the way
you begin your day profound right.
Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
It is about repeated practices over time, so in the moments,
and this is an important piece people need to keep
in mind. You want goals that are actually doable and attainable. Right,
Sometimes we set like these outrageously huge goals that are
a setup for disappointment, a setup for failure, and then
(01:02:34):
we give up. Right, So the common one I said,
I think I had it in the first book Homecoming,
that if last night, if you had fried chicken last night,
don't say, starting today, I'm a vegan.
Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
It's just it's not going to work. You start like
a meetless Monday.
Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
So set goals that seem small, but you repeat them
over time and habit becomes your life.
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
That's beautiful. Oh gosh, yeah, I just I'm sitting with
the thought of it, looking at the time and knowing
I need to ask you my next question, but just
taking a moment. So thank you for that. You know,
you are a person who strikes me as always growing
(01:03:23):
and learning and interrogating, and you know, giving to the
world certainly, And you've given us a new book. What
feels because I imagine when you think about the things
you want to do, you are a person who wants
to do for everyone. I love that you talk about
(01:03:47):
how to do for yourself. But what right now is
the book is coming out and the world is what
it is, and yet you choose to begin every day
in love with all these things you hold. What feels
like you're work in progress right now?
Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Well, I will say one of my what's a continuous
work is parenting. My eldest is a sophomore in college
now in cross country all the way in New York,
and then my youngest is in middle school. Uh, And
they come, you know, with very different personalities. So I
(01:04:26):
like to say, you know, my eldest made me a
very confident parent because.
Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Like she just kind of out.
Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
And then when my son came along, I had had
to get some humility.
Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Like oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
So continuing to be open to learning, like learning them
and learning myself one of the things that really nourishes me.
We talk about like what are practices we can do.
I have a sisterhood circle called the Gathering uh, and
we get together about once a month, either in or
(01:05:00):
online and just pour into each other. And it's so
important to me that it's not a space where like
I'm doing all the pouring and people are just receiving.
Like it is a real sisterhood circle where if we're
having a rough month, we say that and get the encouragement.
(01:05:22):
If you know, we have something to celebrate. We share
that and so, yeah, sisterhood is such a gift and
I continue to humble myself and develop as a parent.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah it feels beautiful. Thank you
so much for coming on today. It's just been an
absolute joy.
Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Thank you for having me, for the wonderful conversation, and
for the beauty of your transparency and your testimony. I
know that as you share your story it's set so
many people free. And I love the range of us
talking from personal relationships to social justice, because all of
it is necessary.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
It is, it is. Thank you so much
Host
Sophia Bush
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