Laura Coates

She went from a trial attorney to a federal prosecutor, walking away from the law and turning to journalism so she could have a voice for those without one. 

CNN's Laura Coates joins Sophia to talk about her time working in the US Department of Justice, what she was ill-prepared for, the moment that changed her career path, and how you should approach this election year, including the most dangerous thing a voter can do. 

Plus, Laura breaks down some of today's political headlines, including Colorado and Maine taking Donald Trump off the ballot. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress with Somartes, and Happy New Year.
I could not be more excited to be kicking off

(00:21):
twenty twenty four with today's guest, none other than CNN's
Laura Coates. Laura is not only one of my favorite journalists,
she is one of the most impressive people I know.
Having graduated from Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public
and International Affairs and the University of Minnesota Law School.
Before beginning her legal career in private practice, Laura transitioned

(00:43):
into the United States Department of Justice, thriving as a
federal prosecutor. She served as a trial attorney in the
Civil Rights Division of the DOJ during the Bush and
Obama administrations. She specialized in the enforcement of voting rights
throughout the country, and since twenty sixteen, she has served
as an analyst for As of last year, she anchors
her own show called Laura Coates Live. She serves as

(01:05):
the network's chief legal analyst. She hosts The Laura Coats
Show on Series XM, and last year published an incredible
book called Just Pursuit. Laura is I mean, clearly one
of the most inspiring people we've probably ever had on
the show. And one of the things I admire so
much about her is that she takes all of her
expertise and humanizes the worlds of journalism and the law.

(01:30):
She is an advocate for the most vulnerable among us.
She is open about the fact that pursuing justice is
complicated because the pursuit of justice often creates injustice. And
she approaches these conversations with you and me and everyone
in her audience as a mom, as a black woman

(01:50):
in these industries. She talks about these identities and invites
us to examine our own. I am so enamored with her,
have the biggest brain crush on her, and honestly, I
just want to be her friend. And after today you
will too. Enjoy Laura. I'm so excited to have you here.

(02:21):
Thank you so much for taking the time for our
friends at home. You all know that I am a
journalism junkie. So to kick off twenty twenty four, the
day that we're recording happens to be January second, with you,
my like, my brain is crushing so hard and I'm
just so excited to chat with you today.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
I am too. I am such a fan of yours
and your work and the podcast. So I'm thrilled to
have this chance. And maybe we'll start the whole new
year off rite and everyone I talk to I'll love
talking to. Maybe I'll cross my fingers and toes and
I'll be the case.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
I like that vibe.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
I think if we're going to set the new year
off with smart women who who care about community, who
also are like fun to hang out with, if that's
my vibe for twenty twenty four, I really feel like
I'm nailing it.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
I look if this can replace my gym resolution. I
am with you like I love a good smart, fun
women done. Not a plank is in sight? Thank you?
So great.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Great, we'll trade the planks for plates. We'll like break
some bread, we'll have some chats. It'll be nice.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
But none of that girl dinner that I keep hearing about,
which is basically like college for me.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
So it's fine, right, Okay, Yeah, we're doing whatever, like
the chic grown up version of that is.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Okay, Okay, I'm in let's do it.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Okay, Well, as we look, as we look forward to
hopefully all of the good things that this year will
bring us to, you know, combat the stress of it
being an election year. I can't believe we're back here.
The irony is that my first question I love to
ask people is actually always about going back, because when
I get to sit opposite from someone such as yourself,

(03:59):
you have this, you know, incredible life and career, and
your resume is wild, and you're you know, a journalist
and an author and a former lawyer, and I mean
it's like it goes. The accolades go on and on.
But I'm always really curious about how people who I
admire so much in their adulthood became these amazing humans.

(04:21):
So if we rewind and we meet little Laura at
you know, eight or nine years old, were you curious
and verbose and obsessed with justice as a child or
were you a completely you know, different version of yourself
that in hindsight makes sense.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, first, thank you, and I'm going to anything you
said is true just now for the sake of my
ego for our mother, because that's true human. But I'm
trying to be so thank you for that. And it's
actually kind of funny because I actually have a nine
year old daughter who truly is my mini me, so
not that hard to imagine myself. That's a younger version,

(05:04):
but I had to. Although she's better than I ever was,
and I hope to be better than I ever will be,
because that's how you everyone thinks about their kids. But
I gotta say I was always a really talkative, curious
Some would say nosy, but I was curious and inquisitive
and precocious sort of kid. I always thought like I

(05:25):
was at the adult table, even though I was clearly
at the little kid table. But I was always really chatty.
I was always really Every one of my school reviews,
I can tell you right now was like, all right,
she's smart, if only she would stop talking in class,
and that would be the thing. But I think that
I was always really kind of shore footed in some respects.

(05:49):
I was. I was very confident child, mostly because I
had two older sisters who were so wonderful still are
so wonderful, still are my best friends, and very much so.
Came from a family where my parents instilled in us
that each of our opinions wasn't always right, but was
important to voice. And so we had this thing called
the Coat's Corporation, and my parents would invite us into

(06:13):
their you know, businesses or conversations and sort of give
us all rule or roles. I was called the resident
potato peeler, which is not really that flattering looking back. Fine,
I like potatoes, I could feel ump, that's fine. But
they would ask like, what's your opinion or what do
you think about something? And as a young kid, having
someone sort of look to you that you admired and

(06:33):
respected want to hear from you was really invaluable for me.
And it's at a very wonderful tone, I can't say
that throughout my whole life, I didn't have imposter syndrome.
I was, as you know, insecure as the next person
at different things. I was as confident as the next person.
But one thing I was always really sure of was
that I had every right to speak my mind. Funny enough, though,

(06:58):
that manifested differently. I almost as a kid, I had
a really bad stutter, and so I wanted to get
everything out so quickly, and it made me more self
conscious when I spoke, And so that was one thing
that was different than now. But in some ways, I'm
still very much the little kid who's like what I

(07:19):
say is important, I want to get it out right now,
but having to slow myself down to do it. MM.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
That's so interesting. You said that that you had a
sutter as a kid, and my brain went just like
the president, just like yes, yeah, but like my inner
little kid was like, it's okay.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, there you go. See it's I mean, maybe I'll
be on a ballot one day as a result. Oh
I mean, I tell you not now, who knows. But
I feel like it's so funny how many former stutters
I meet in current stutterers, if that's the phrase to use,
only because I feel like there's just so many people
who have so much to say and sometimes don't feel

(08:01):
like people either had the attention span to listen to
them or are not secure that people will think that
what they have to say is worth the weight. And
I think for a lot of people that can be
part of the cause.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, you bring up
such a great point and its vulnerability so many I
think so many of us who lead any sort of
public facing life or have any sort of public facing
career struggle with imposter syndrome because you look around and
you go, well, look at all these impressive people in
the room and on this set and in this place,

(08:35):
And what do I really have to contribute but that
sort of ethos from your family that you cannot assume
that you're right, but your opinion is always valid. You
should always be heard that I love the both and
of that, because it's really about holding two things to

(08:56):
be true at the same time. You deserve to speak
your mind and you have to make room to be
right or wrong. You have to make room for other
people to speak their minds too. And what a special
thing that is to give to a child. I wonder if,
looking back, that encouragement from them has been part of
what's helped you battle your imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Do you think, Oh, of course, I mean I think. Look,
if I do say so myself, I look younger than some.
I look young sometimes in general. Other times I look
around and I'm like, wait, so no one else here
was born in the eighties. Okay, that's why I could
do nineties vie. That's okay. But I look around sometimes,

(09:39):
and certainly, especially in the law. You know, whether it
was in a courtroom, whether it was doing appeals, whether
it was as a prosecutor. Sometimes you would find yourself
in rooms where people had to give you the benefit
of doubt, and oftentimes they did not be oftentimes assumed
that you were there for and other than merit, or

(10:01):
that you were there but you had so much more
to learn than them, and so you had to almost
shield yourself with armor and a bit of bravado to
make sure at phrase, fake it till you make it
like no, it was for me. You know, never have
to fake it. Just create the opportunities for yourself where
you can be at ease with your intellect and in

(10:22):
your spaces. And that some of that worked out really
well other times, especially now. I mean I remember starting
out at CNN and talking about Watergate, sitting next to
the people who actually were a part of Watergate and
being like, well, one of us is not the other
at this table, but I know that none of us
were here for the Constitution, and I speak about that

(10:44):
and don't pat me on the head as I endeavor
to do so. So you have to really give yourself
that that sort of champion mentality that you'll champion for
yourself in those moments. But I have been many a
room where I have been doubted, and I have people,
you know, not really wanting to give you the full front.
I claut when they look you red in the eye

(11:04):
and they're receiving the information from you, and or they'll
turn to somebody next to you who said the exact
same thing and then go, oh, that messenger suits me better.
That messenger is someone that I give more credence and
authority to. So I'm gonna say that that person said
it right.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
So there's there's.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Moments of like ego, but you have to just I mean, Sofia,
I have to say, I wear my own jersey in
my mind, and I actually have a jersey in my
in my house that has coats on the back for
my childhood years in a friend of mine gave him
in Minnesota, and it says coats on the back. And
I will rocket mentally, figuratively literally to go whatever room

(11:42):
I'm in if I can cheer for my favorite athlete,
if I can cheer for my favorite artist, if I
can be a fan girl for this person, or that
I can totally for myself because the end of the day,
who else is going to unless you do? And sometimes
my kids I'll put it on and I'll go, ah, Lord,
who messed with mommy today? She's got out of the
coaches jersey, and I'm like, I want to know, you

(12:04):
don't even want to know. Just let it, yeah, let
it not be you. I love that.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
So if if you take all that wisdom and the
skill set that you got from your family that has
enabled you to be this woman who knows how to
champion herself and who knows how to you know, stand
in the power of her intellect in a room. When
do you think your interest in the law started? Because

(12:33):
what I what I hear you talking about is communication, community, justice,
you know, And I think at the root of justice
is this idea that all people deserve to be cared
for to succeed, you know, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
Where did where did that you know, ability to rock

(12:56):
your jersey and to want that for everyone else Where
do you see in the timeline of your life that
sort of power investing itself in the law, in the
justice system. Was there like a clarifying moment or did
it evolve over time?

Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know, I think it's kind of it's behind your childer,
I guess the heart on your wall, because sometimes whatever
you're calling age, no matter what, you'll end up you'll
gravitate towards your passion no matter what you try, as
far as you will, which you'll always gravitate there, for
better or for worse. And for me, my heart in
so many ways is being a voice for people who

(13:34):
can't speak for themselves, being a champion for those who
can or do not have the opportunity to be so,
or just cannot do so. And I was raised. My
father grew up in foster care for most of his
childhood until he aged of the system. My mother grew
up in North Carolina and in Connecticut, where she went
north to follow her parents, who served in different households

(13:56):
of some very prominent people who later became my clients
in the world, an irony of that, but both of
whom had to have people who would advocate and champion
for them, and in different moments in their lives, were
vulnerable and could not necessarily have any choice or anyone
who would between them and their backs against the wall.

(14:19):
And so for me, I grew up in a house
where that was instilled very early and in our lives
of what it was like for people, my father in particular,
who when you age out of his system, when you're
a nineteen fifties nineteen sixties, black boy in Massachusetts, aging
out of the system with siblings, with family in the
area who could not or did not choose to care

(14:42):
for you. What you have to have within you and do,
And what a difference it would make in a person's
life to have somebody who was ready, willing and able
to be that champion and that sort of fork in
the road moments in his life and others' lives where
the difference was the advocacy, the wherewithal and fortitude to believe,

(15:04):
to have faith that somebody, if not yourself, might be
willing to help or change. And so for me, that
was always growing up what I thought I would get into,
that I would be in public service. I did not
see prosecution because I thought civil rights work would only
require me to do and I did so civil rights
work as well, but more in a capacity of policy

(15:27):
or activism. And I learned pretty quickly throughout college in
particular and law school that my calling was really towards
being a voice for those who could not advocate and
telling their stories in a way that gave them dignity,
in a way that gives them hope, and in a

(15:47):
way that gave them an opportunity to have justice and equality,
and for me, that avenue was the law. Now interestingly enough,
those same feelings I have was what ended me or
put me into the world of journalism, the same line
of storytelling, of voicing the stories that I care most about.
But there was I would say the clarity that I

(16:09):
had was the culmination of a childhood being raised by
two very strong, will very independent, very wonderful people who
needed required and then gave back advocacy and championing for
other people.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. You know, I like to think about the
things that inform us. The metaphor that I've come up

(16:47):
with for it is what tea have we been steeped in?
M That's a good because when you think about that,
like the way that a tea bag soaks up everything
around it, it just is. It's physics, it's it's culture,
it's placed, it's all of these things. And in our country,
there's so much that's beautiful about our ideals, but there's

(17:08):
a lot of problematic reality, right like when we talk
about what America is in her best potential and what
the country is in its realistic failing. You know, the
fact that we're debating teaching history is crazy to me.
But you know, we do live in a country that
has been steeped in white supremacy. We live in a

(17:30):
country that has been steeped in misogyny. You know, the
things you have faced as a woman that I have
faced as a woman, the extra layer of the things
you face as a black woman. All of this informs
to your point, your parents' story, your story, what you see,
and what's inspiring to me is when I'm trying to

(17:53):
make sense of like a system or what we've grown
up in, or how we might pursue justice for a community.
I try to think about, like, Okay, if I zoom
out to thirty thousand feet, like when you really look
from above, where are all the connection points? And the
connection points you're talking about drawing as the child of

(18:14):
parents who needed and then became those advocates, as a
woman who pursued the law and through the stories of people,
realized she wanted to lean into journalism, Like you're talking
about these thirty thousand foot perspectives of how do I
take what I am privileged enough to experience the good

(18:35):
and the bad, you know, the beauty and the pain
of human existence, and bring people into it in a
way that invites, that teaches that, you know, perhaps creates
more empathy catharsis ability for us to see each other.
And there's such poetry in that. Yeah, and you're talking

(18:58):
about the law and the news, like these things that
can feel very rigid, but they really are beautiful when
I think used to their highest good.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah. The law, really, Sophia, is just the terms on
which we interact with each other. It's if the boundaries
we decide, the boundaries we keep, and the boundaries we
break side, that justice somehow falls along that spectrum. And
then of course there's what's right right, there is what's

(19:31):
right and just, and what's legal and lawful. These can
be podds and conflict with one another often, and so
I look at the law as far more fluid than
the idea of here's what the statute says, here's what
the written text is. It really is how we relate
and choose to relate to one another, and what are

(19:52):
those terms that we're comfortable with and that we're willing
at times. And the instance of maybe a civil disobedience
of civil rights era and beyond are breaking or in
the legislative body of changing. And when you think of
it that way, it really has a human connection to
it more than anything else, more than just this rigid
Here's how I can punish, and here's how I can prevent.

(20:13):
It's also here's how I can exist as a part
of this social contract. Here's what we value. You know,
people often say, you tell me, you show me your budget,
I'll tell you your priorities. Right, you show me what
you need, and I'll tell you what you value. You
show me the laws that are on the books, and
I'll tell you what a society really values. And some
of these laws are totally unknown to people. I mean,

(20:35):
just right now, this is the first show of the year.
It's getting of twenty twenty four. There's a lot of
new laws that have now been enacted that some you
may agree with, some you may not agree with, but
they're there. And oftentimes, we as a society unfortunately open
under operate under a kind of secrecy where we think
the law is supposed to be totally inaccessible, that politics

(20:57):
is supposed to be totally for the elite. And if
you don't understand the jargon that's being thrown around. You're
kind of like, I don't know, an eighty year old
trying to communicate through the acronyms of Twitter and Instagram
and TikTok that only a certain group of people is
eligible to understand the law and the life around us.

(21:18):
And I think this just can't be the case, that
can't be true. So one of my passions really is
to make things accessible. The information itself is activism, not
the opinion itself, but the access to the information. And
you know, it's funny, I have to borrow when you
were talking about tea, which is such a great analogy
you raise. I'll borrow this from my friend Michael Eric Dyson,

(21:40):
who often says this, and it is stuck with me
so much. If you often say, you know, life is
kind of like boiling water and the individual people what
happens when they're in it. Some people are like an egg.
You put the raw egg into the water and it
changes who they are inside. By people, you put a

(22:01):
carrot in and it becomes soft. Life makes them soft
all of a sudden. Or you can be the coffee
bean when it goes into the hot water and it
creates something powerful and stronger than it was. That keeps
everybody woke about you want to be woke or that
that's a whole different attitude. But when you think about
the tam tell them you got to add Sophia's tea
analogy in there too, because what we're steeped in is

(22:23):
even more important.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Mm hmmmm hmm. And I think I love that. I
love that idea of like lean into being coffee, that
that feels, that feels exciting.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Although I don't drink coffee, I should say that don't.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Oh my god, I'm like, it would.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Be crazy, and I'm a tea drinker. I do do
chime caffeine, but I'm okay. If I had coffee, I
would be like bouncing off the walls.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
I just don't think I can survive without it. I
don't know if it's like some you know, generational inheritance
thing from my mom's family being Italian, like you.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Had no choice.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
It's like oxygen for me, Like if I don't have
an espresso, I don't know. I don't know how to
be alive. Could be addiction, but I'm going to romanticize
it and be like it's because I'm Italian.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
We love pasta and coffee. No judgment coming for me. Yeah,
we all have our things that keep us alive.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, Like that's my storytelling bit. But something I find
so fascinating is, you know, the the journey that you've
been on to tell the truth and to advocate for
people and to activate for people. When you when you
reference you know, your time at the DOJ and and

(23:37):
what it was like to work as a prosecutor, you
know it when I when I first really got obsessed
with your work, you know, and read your book when
it came out last year, Like, there's so much that
reminds me. I mean, you're just you're amazing. There's so
much that reminds me of the of the sort of
ways you are trying to illuminate how these systems work

(23:59):
for people. You know that It made me feel a
lot like when I first watched Brian Stevenson's Ted Talk
back in the day, and he was like really explaining
to people the potential that exists in the legal system
and what sort of outcomes, particularly prosecutors control for people,

(24:19):
and how you can either heal or harm with the
letter of the law. And you just talked about this
idea that you could be very black and white, and
you could punish or you know whatever it might be
like to the letter, or you could figure out how
to change community. And you talk about how within a

(24:41):
system as an advocate, as a lawyer, it is really
hard when you see the writing on the wall that
the pursuit of justice often creates in justice. You talk
about this that these systems and we know this from
social science data and the research and all of the
health outcomes, the public health outcomes. We know that these

(25:02):
systems do not act. You know, it's not a blind
taste test for people. That there are outcomes that are
unfairly and differently sort of put upon groups of people.
In our populous black and brown people suffer in ways

(25:24):
that folks who look like me just don't. Very often
at the hands of a justice system. You know, they're police.
These communities are policed differently, they're prosecuted differently, they're judged differently.
And I'm curious, how, as the again that the advocate
legal mind that that you are, how did that aha

(25:46):
moment hit you in the system and and and did
it Because I'm just curious in the in the line,
I'm curious in the timeline for the folks at home
who haven't read the book. Did it did that illuminate
for you in private practice and then make you want
to go into the justice department or was it something
that as you went into the justice department changed your

(26:11):
like that experience changed your awareness.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
I have to say I began in private practice and
I thought that I was as knowledgeable as you ought
to be in the practice of law. But when I
hit the justice department, I realized a level of professional
naida ta that was completely foreign to me. Wow. It

(26:36):
wasn't that I didn't understand the concepts, or that I
failed to understand evidential rules or hears there, or you know,
the mechanics of trying cases. I do that I was
ill prepared for what the sociological aspect of the criminal

(26:57):
justice system entailed. First of all, I maybe prosecuted hundreds
and hundreds of cases I saw or had a hand
in perhaps a thousand, and I can tell you on
one hand the number of non black or brown defendants
I even saw.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
And it wasn't that this was white officers targeting people
of color. This was a majority black police force that
I would encounter as well. And so the dynamic of that,
the dynamic of a parade of people who are coming
in and out of a courtroom, children to the elderly,
you know, having this tension with the system and the

(27:40):
concept of justice, being a black woman, having my allegiance
to my community questioned by virtue of being in the
space occupied by the quote unquote man. Whatever that looks like.
It usually didn't look like the five foot, free and
app black women that I am right. But whoever I
thought the man ought to be I was never that person.

(28:01):
And so it was always this idea, well, how can
you be a prosecutor and believe in civil rights? How
can you be a prosecutor and believe inequality? Now that
says volumes for people that people believe. You can either
be a prosecutor, which has such a tremendous amount of power.
I mean, all the decisions are made by the time

(28:22):
really trial comes around. If you're a defense attorney, and
more power to you, and we definitely need defense attorneys,
but you have to be reactive to the discretion that
a prosecutor exercises. By time you get a case, as
a defense attorney, you already know the charges. You have
nothing you can do about them. You're handed the evidence
that they're going to give over to you. The arrest

(28:43):
has been made, the indictment's already issued. All that's left
now is to convince and a jury that your client
maybe is innocent. There's a huge wait if your name's
on the other side of the United States versus And
I think that, even though I was well aware of
that power, the ability to wield discretion and at times

(29:04):
unfettered discretion and unchecked mostly was really shocking to me
because it meant that at the whim or the prejudices
of an individual prosecutor, someone's life could be changed forever,
at the level of diligence that they wanted to exercise.
The amount of times I would have to in the

(29:25):
courthouse act as an advocate for the defendant, because of course,
if you say, you know, Laura codes On behalf of
the people of the United States, that also meant the defendant.
And there'd be a number of times when the defendant
did not have adequate counsel to understand what plea they
were agreeing to, or request that needs to be made
for the discovery or things like that. But for me,

(29:47):
a really big moment was, Hey, it was my husband,
because my husband and I were we're having our young children.
When I was a prosecutors too, I have a neither
eleven and nine. I can't believe it, but I remember
my husband would ask me a lot about, you know,

(30:07):
police brutality cases Mike Brown was happening in Ferguson Trayvon Martin,
obviously not a victim of actual official law enforcement, but
the interactions that displayed nonetheless by somebody who tried to
usurp that role. So many cases were happening, and he
would often ask me about it, and you know, about
the prosecutor's decision to charge or not charge a case.
And I find myself kept asking, you know, or keep

(30:30):
saying from here's why it is, and here's why I'm different,
and convincing myself that, of course I was nothing like
those prosecutors who would be involved in that are those
members of law enforcement. And then his questions became fewer
and further in between over time, until one day he
calls me out to the car and he says he'd
been tinkering back there for quite some time, and of

(30:52):
course yet another Amazon box had arrived. So I didn't
think anything of it, and he says, I have something
that I want to show you. I come out so
begrutulates the car, like, oh god, I weren't stay on
the couch right now and probably watched the house while
I was something I was doing. And I come out
and he has installed a camera on our car, and

(31:12):
I said, oh my god, why don't we need to
have a camera in my car, Like it's I'm a
safe driver, what are you doing? And he's kind of
my husband, who's, you know, not a particularly emotional person
at all, had tears in his eyes and he said
it's it's it's for me, not you. And I said, well,
what do you mean? And I knew the second the

(31:33):
question left my mouth about what he was going to say,
or I was thinking he would, And he said, I
just wanted if I'm ever pulled over by police, I
wanted you to know what really happened, and then I
would never have left you and the kids. And my
heart like shattered in that movement, because for him, that

(31:56):
was a love letter to me and also a reflection
that he thought his own death at the hands of
police officer was inevitable. And here I was a member
and a part of the justice system with a muzzle
where I couldn't talk, I couldn't share to the world
what was really happening or what could happen. And it

(32:18):
was one of those moments that I remember thinking, what
could I do to perhaps selfishly save his life, but
also to save the life of justice. And it was
one of those moments that I decided that I was
going to try something. I'd learned so much, I've seen

(32:42):
so much, and yet where I was in that space
was not enough to make the love of my life comfortable,
safe in any way. So you know, I have a
son and a daughter, and I just I needed to
do something. And when I left the Justice Woradhen I
read about this and the different moments attention in the book,

(33:05):
and you know what it's like to be called on
to aid in the deportation of someone and what that
does to the internal conflicts you never expect to have
in your life. That was when I decided that I
wanted to go into journalism. I didn't have a background,
I didn't know what I was doing. I literally when

(33:25):
I left, I was nursing my daughter still, I had
my kids. My son is eighteen months older. I was
posted up in a Panera bread sitting by the fire,
nursing an orange peako t because it was free refills.
I'm poor, I get this down. I'm poor cause I
just retired from my life and I'm trying to figure
out what to do next. And Frankully, my husband was

(33:46):
thin and love Ramen. I had to figure it out.
But I never looked back because I don't know there's something.
I haven't changed the world by any stretch. At least
I know one foot in front of the other. I
am illuminating issues that could make somebody think differently about

(34:10):
how justice could work.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
And now a word from our sponsors. I talk a
lot with friends who are justice minded about this. You
know that in our twenties we were like, We're going
to be the generation that saves the world. And then
you're like, oh wow, really incredible. People have been at

(34:35):
this for literally hundreds of years. Maybe I need to
take several seats. I never want to lose the goal, yeah,
of flipping the scales, But I think the wisdom that
comes with age and experience is that you have to
desire something that folks older than us might tell us

(34:57):
is an unrealistic utopia. But you have to be pragmatic
enough to make the incremental change that will make our
children's lives better than ours, and that made our lives
better than our grandparents' lives. You have to be willing
to do the long work, like real activism, real advocacy,
real policy change. It's not like the refresh where you

(35:18):
drag your thumb down and there's eighty new Instagram photos
to look at nine seconds. It's like long, unsexy dedication
that requires longevity and relationship. And when I hear you
talk about these sort of watershed moments in your life

(35:41):
and you say, like, you know, I haven't changed the world.
I think you've changed a lot of people's worlds. I
think that's the pragmatic potential to achieve that ideal. Like
every person who has encountered your work or who's read
your book is changed. That's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Well I well, thank you for that. This is this
is where you plug the words work in progress. Well,
this is this is what is right. I mean, this
is we're all I think in so many ways. Just
you're a very accomplished woman. You're very ambitious. It's evident.
So there's there is always this goal to check things off,

(36:23):
and to do that, I'm sure for you as long
and I'm sure you've got a lot of things checked off.
So many of us have that that drive in us.
And I think when it comes to justice, and it
comes to issues of of really social importance, whatever your
conscience is telling you should happen, it's it's more like
the practice of medicine or the practice of law. It's

(36:45):
the practice of advocacy, it's the practice of justice. It's
the practices. And that's very hard when you want to
get it done because remember that and we're younger at
the go to like the arcade, the whack a Mole
like I saw one and one pops up. Although I'm
really good at that game, so it don't challenge me.
But like you're the whole thing, right and at the

(37:06):
end of it, you're like, there's still something else, but yeah,
just keep going to know, all right, well, hopefully when
my arm gets tired, there's somebody right next to me
going I'll literally take the baton, splash mallet and I'll
keep at it for that next person. And talking about
keeping us all driven to do it, that's the hard part.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
So something that fascinates me because that's the thing, right, Like,
when you commit yourself to trying to better your community,
it is.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Whack the mole.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, Like you realize, oh, there's not going to be
a day where we get to the end of this road.
We're like, we're on the road forever and we're dealing
with what's coming in from these perpendicular streets. Like oh,
my god, when you talk about that aha moment and
it crystallizes and it's so personal in that exchange that

(38:01):
day with your husband, that's really profound and moving to
listen to. What I want to dig into a little
bit is that bigger concept of understanding the importance of
your role as a prosecutor and the fact that from
the outside a lot of people looked at you and said,

(38:23):
how could you do this? How could you prosecute? You know,
it's not lost on me that this has been a
lot of the Vice President's journey where people say, well,
you know, you worked on the wrong side of the law,
you know, for your community, and you go, hold on,
it's actually the prosecutors who can either indefinitely harm a

(38:44):
life or redirect it. You can create accountability that within
a society shapes people into better versions of themselves. Or
you can wield accountability like a hammer and bludgeon folks
with it, and it will always it will always be
unfair to some communities more than others. It requires a

(39:07):
pragmatism to say, I want to wield a gavel, not
a hammer. I want to shift the way the system
exercises quote justice on people. And I imagine it requires
an immense amount of fortitude to withstand the kind of
criticism that comes at you from people who don't necessarily

(39:31):
know the inner workings of a justice system in the
way that you even say you were naive to until
you got to the DOJ. So I guess I'm curious
going from private practice into the Justice Department, working in
the Civil Rights Division, what when you entered it felt
like your goalposts? What were the things you really wanted

(39:54):
to work on? And how did you, as INDIVI Laura,
how did you sort of know when it was time
to shift to move on?

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Well, it's a great question because there's rarely ever one moment.
There's almost like a you know, and every for a
nanosecond you find yourself reconfiguring and ingesting. It's like a
watching your eye or a lens of a camera, try
to focus on something. It's constantly shifting to make sure

(40:33):
that what you want and what your why is is
in view. And there I would say, you know, when
you look at the justice system, really it's in some
ways a legal system that we pursue justice and hopefully
one day we'll catch it. But discretion is something that

(40:54):
people don't think enough about. We know we want a
jury of your peers. We know why it's so important
to have a jury of one's peers, because you want
to be judged by people who maybe have either had
similar life circumstances, or have perhaps walked half a mile,
if not a mile, in your shoes, or somebody who
can believe will understand and see the holistic three to

(41:14):
sixty person. We don't think about that same prospect for
those who make charging decisions, though, because that's also where
it's necessary to have a prosecutor of your peer. Now,
it doesn't mean that I'm going to be soft on
crime because I have walked a mile. I may have
walked a mile on your shoes and chose a different direction,
and the laws may tell you that it was very

(41:34):
clear and there's no excuse for the behavior. It doesn't
mean because you are contemplative and thoughtful about the law
or the benefit of the doubts or grace, or that
maybe law enforcement got it wrong, or that you can
in the presumption of innocence the point where you're willing
to question and dot every eye, cross every tee. That
doesn't make you soft on crime. It makes you alert.

(41:57):
It makes you hard on the constitution and what it's
supposed to have and mean for you. And you should
be there, and I'm naturally skeptical, So that part for
me was easy. But what was difficult was being able
to keep one's head down and focus and not want
to defend your every action right because I knew. But

(42:19):
as much as people were cringing at the thought of
a black woman as a prosecut which by the way,
there are many of us, but cringing at that thought,
I would look at the victims and say, so, they
don't get to have somebody who's their champion. The only
focus is on who is the suspect and defendant. That's
the only way we judge who ought to get a chance.

(42:43):
I looked really holensed of the victims and those who
deserves every bit of championing as those who may have
been either wrongly accused or overcharged or frankly charged appropriately,
but a system of justice which only had a punishment
and not a therapeutic and rehabilitation minded view of sentencing.

(43:06):
There's so many moments of it, and so I had
to tell you. As much as it was difficult for
me to at times reconcile what I thought was right,
what was lawful, or the criticism, there were so many
more moments when I knew, without a shadow of a
doubt that but for me being at having a teet

(43:29):
at table, justice would not have been served, whether it
was half of the victim or behalf the person who
was charged incorrectly or at all I knew in my heart.
But that was a conversation much like I. You know,
we all have those moments when you know, I don't
know what your quiet moment to like, or a moment
you might judge or second guess yourself or try to

(43:49):
talk yourself through a moment, whatever that looks like for you.
When I would have those moments, I had to go
back to the why, why did you want it? Why
are you here? There are far more lucrative options. There
are far more stress less options. There are different places

(44:11):
to do the work you're doing. What was your why?
So going back to that whine, holding it in my
hands and my heart was how I went through it,
because you know, you're in an industry where people probably
just like me, they seek power just to say they
have it. They're working out some childhood issues, right they

(44:34):
and they want to be able to be in this
position to abuse and exploit or be the person that
gets to have to say the thumbs up thumbs down,
you know, Emperor in the coliseum.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
And if that's your why, please don't ever go into
the practice of law, and please don't ever go into
the prosecution's office, because that's when injustice will occur. Every
single time. You have to go in with the why.
Because people deserve to have their voices heard. They ought

(45:12):
to be able to believe that this legal system can
be just and that people have to be able to
know that, you know, no one's above the law. And
if you don't have people that get that, we failed.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, what a
profound reminder when you talk about holding that both and
holding awareness of the immense power that a person in

(45:48):
the role of prosecutor has over the accused, but also
the immense responsibility that you have for the person who
was harmed, right and to hold the reality that both
of those people deserve justice. That requires a lot of

(46:10):
emotional and moral might to take care of people, you know,
across the spectrum. And yeah, it's certainly not to care
across that spectrum is not something that you know, a
bully would be inherently great at. And so to figure

(46:31):
out how to get more carrying people into these spaces
does feel like it is of paramount importance. And when
they're not, you see the sort of tessellations of harm happen.
I mean, I know that one of the things that
you specialized in was the enforcement of voting rights throughout
the country, and we have watched people use our elections

(46:57):
as a bully pulpit. We watch people who do not
have equity and justice at this sort of core of
their mission work on assassinating voting rights around the country,
rolling back the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, refusing you know,
to give it the re upping that it deserved on
the floor, Like it is very scary to watch that.

(47:22):
And in the last election, there were so many moves
made that violated the voting rights of people all across
the country, and in outsized ways violated the voting rights
of minority groups and people of color. You know, we
watched people being purged from voter rolls state to state unjustly.
And not to go doom and gloom, but it is
twenty twenty four and we are, you know, coming into

(47:45):
an election year. I know so many people worry about
this stuff but don't exactly know what they can do
about it. So as the resident expert, you know, are
you're the only person in this zoom call who been
at the DJ and as an author and as a journalist,
is someone who uses her voice to encourage us. How

(48:09):
do you say to the folks at home? You know,
these are the things you can do as as the
election approaches at the end of the year. These are
the ways you can stand up for your rights and
the rights of people in your community to be able
to exercise their right to vote. You know, are there
things we should be looking at and doing this year?

Speaker 2 (48:28):
You know, absolutely? And I think the biggest thing is
and I know it sounds like a being tongue in cheek,
I'm really not. You have got to stay not tired.
The exhaustion that can set in when you want to
throw up your hands and go, oh, it's all it's
all good, it's all politics, and how exhausting it is,

(48:50):
and you know there are people who are counting on
they are praying, hoping and guaranteeing you'll be so exhausted
that you do don't want to show up, be tired.
You want to throw the towel. You want to opt out.
And that's the most dangerous thing you can do is
opt out. You have to really look at the issues,
not as you know, a ping pong where people are

(49:15):
just trying to give you a whiplash to make you
check out, but really, what do you care about? What
do you want to see? And then demand that of
the platforms of what they're talking about. So many politicians
and candidates in particular distract They want to get these
ten thousand foot views, and you want to know about

(49:38):
what's in front of you. One of the most selfish
times of your life, and one of the most selfless
times of your life is when you're in the voting booth.
Right you're there one you want to care about, what
you can personally want to see and also what ought
to be in a world you want to operate in,
and those things can sometimes be difficult to reconcile or

(49:58):
very easy. Any event, you have to be able to
lean in. You have to figure out make a list,
like I'm a big journal person. I make lists all
the time. I can't go into a store, but I
can't even go into home goods anymore because he's by
I don't need this, but I need this. It's pretty,
the cover is good. I make like lists like what
do I care about? What do I want? And I

(50:19):
try to manifest it. And you manifest it in voting
by figuring out the candidates that are actually saying something
that speaks to you, not what you want to hear,
but actually holding them to it. That's one avoiding exhaustion.
Number two is be very, very vigilant about the voter rolls.

(50:41):
As you mentioned, that's the list that you're on to
figure out whether you're registered and areas of the country
will take you off if you haven't voted for a
certain amount of time. Others will question the identification. You
have to prove that you are who you say you
are and also are at the address to make the
precinct correspond with where you're supposed to be voting. Be
visually about how you're trapped in that system. Shore you're registered,

(51:05):
make sure you know where you're supposed to go. You
have the proper identification, you have the proper paperwork to
prove whatever you need to do. If you know you're
not going to be in person, you have to be
proactive about getting an absentee ballot and doing it ahead
of time because what you say matters, and what you
say is how you vote. And then finally, I would say,
you have to be very vigilant about the powerful people

(51:28):
who don't want you to have any power. And one
way they do that is slute your voting strength by jerrymandering,
by making sure that whatever voting group you're a part of,
however you tended to vote. If you're thinking, now, how
can I make that less powerful? Is it by dissecting
it and chopping it up? Is it by concentrating a

(51:48):
population that I think vote a certain way in one area?
Or is it by changing districts? What can I do
to undermine and delute your power? That's what we have
to say. Pay attention to and most of those things,
everything I just said has nothing to do with how
you vote. That only is the least of a democracy's concerns.

(52:09):
It's being able to do so. Nobody ever guaranteed you
that you get to vote for the winner, right. You
have to have the opportunity, a meaningful opportunity, vote for
your candidate of choice. And every time someone takes that
away from your neighbor, you got to pay attention because
your door will be knocked done next. So those are

(52:31):
the ways I think you have to really think about it.
And don't think that any of this is in the
rear view mirror. It is in front of you. It
is down the road unless your.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Vigilant right, right, And we've got to keep applying the pressure.
You know something I've one of the things I try
to talk to a lot of young people about is
to me, I look at democracy as a verb.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
It is an action.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
It requires consistent interaction, It requires pressure, It requires attention
because when we get complacent, when we think, oh, we
won that fight, the people who didn't want us to
win it in the first place are They're working every
day to take to take the winds away from us.
So we really have to maintain our dedication and our

(53:20):
action around you know, equity, justice, the sort of social
constructs that are meant to support us. And to that end,
I'm really curious, you know, again, as the woman who
knows the letter of the law the best, who also
is walking us all through what's happening in the world,

(53:41):
you know, live on air. By the way, the show
is just so good. And for our friends at home,
I'm sure you all are. But if you are not
watching Laura Coates Live on CNN, get it together. This
is your homework. As I'm in for twenty twenty four.
The show is so good and as you're covering what's
currently happening, you know, we can't not mention that things

(54:03):
are wild leading into the election. You know, Donald Trump
has been indicted on I think it's ninety one charges
now and counting.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
It's wild.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
You know, people are talking about the fourteenth Amendment. You
can't hold office if you've led an insurrection against the
United States. Colorado has blocked him based on the fourteenth
Amendment from the ballot, from the primary ballot. Main is
following steps. You know, some people are saying that this
oxygenates his campaign, that this helps him play victim, helps
him pretend, you know, that he's not of the system.

(54:34):
Do you think the legal challenge here stands? I mean,
people say this is what our founding fathers were trying
to protect against, you know, was the enemy from within,
and other people are saying that this is going to
bolster his run. What do you think, as both our
journalists and our guests, who is a pro at the

(54:56):
legal analysis.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Well, you know, interestingly enough, the Constitution did not contemplate
every scenario. I mean, there's limited words, and it didn't
envision everything that we've ever endured as a country. So undationally,
it did try to resolve a lot of the issues
we talked about today. One of the reasons why what's

(55:19):
going on with the former president Donald Trump is so
interesting and problematic is because there are questions about whether
the Constitution or the Founding fathers even had a solution
in mind. And if they did, is what's happening now
with their google from balance, for example, is that what
they had in mind is the fourteenth Amendment, which is

(55:41):
you know, knowing peop think about the first fourth Amendment,
think about equal protection under the law. That's the synonymous
way people think about the Fourteenth Amendment, there's a little
known clause about Look, you also can't hold office if
you've been engaged in an insurrection. It really was address
to the Civil War and members of the Confederacy who
had gone against the government of the United States the
country I then wanted to maintain or hold office in

(56:04):
the future or in the present. So because that particular
clause does not address and doesn't name the president in particular,
and there are other aspects of the Constitution that talk
about the president in particular, there's one argument to suggest, well,
then obviously the fourteenth Amendment did not actually intend to
include the president, because the frabers would have said that

(56:27):
if they meant that. On the other hand, the Constitution
is found on a number of things that at its
foundation obviously envisioned something else. Another big issue with this,
the legality of the issue, is a concept of due process,
meaning you know, a notice, an opportunity to be heard.
The way that translates to this discussion, though, so it

(56:49):
really is, well, if I haven't been actually convicted of
an insurrection, then why am I being removed because of
claims of an insurrection? So I have to have the
presumption of innocence and doesn't that carry through? Is something
I have an actual indictment or a prosecution or a conviction. Well,
Jack Smith, a special counsel in Washington, d C. Who's

(57:12):
in charge of a number of cases, didn't actually charge
Trump with insurrection. He has four charges, none of which
are that. Okay, that's one argument. But a Colorado court
found that he had engaged in an insurrection. Is that
enough to say, well, I have a judicial finding, that's enough.
But this is why the Supreme Court is going to

(57:33):
be so important, as these are really novel issues that
require a very specific and thorough reading of the Constitution,
of the discussion of surrounding the constitution. Common sense also
plays a part of this.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Well, you mean the part where we watched it live
on TV.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
I mean that part part of it. Yeah, that's part
of it, too interesting. Yeah, oh, it's details, details out.
But all the attitudes that as running it are how
the courts resolve it. For now. You've got places like
me with the Secretary of State, who's any charge of
elections there says nope, I'm keeping them off the ballot.
Colorado keeping them off the ballot. When he'll be a

(58:13):
trend in other states. I just don't know. But at
the end of the day, this is why the vigilance
is so important, and why common sense and the law
has to somehow come together make democracy work. And why
right now, you know that phrase a republic if you
can keep it is top to mind.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Yes, And now a word from our sponsors that I
really enjoy and I think you will too. I have
a follow up question to that, because this confuses me
a bit. It seems like we're doing, you know, for thee,
but not for me. A lot these days in the
upper echelons of government, because there's this sort of line

(58:57):
for folks who fall in line behind the former president
that you know, the impeachments didn't matter, and all these
ways he's broken the law, and you know, him leading
an insurrection and calling domestic terrorists very fine people, and
all of these things feels crazy. And then at the
same time the GOP is admitting in public, I mean,

(59:18):
on the record, so many of their elected lawmakers have said, oh,
there's absolutely no evidence for any wrongdoing on the part
of our current president Joe Biden, but we're going to
lead an impeachment inquiry into him anyway, because it'll make
for good TV. And it's wild to me that they
can say that and do that and tie up the
courts to do that. But though they many of them,

(59:40):
have admitted that this is a you know, TV stunt.
His son is being investigated for impropriety with his taxes,
and there seems to be this double standard where, you know,
Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump made six hundred and fifty
million dollars, you know, while working at the White House
and have security clearance that the government said they shouldn't have,

(01:00:02):
but Trump gave it to them anyway. And then Hunter
Biden doesn't work at the White House and has never
made nearly that much money, you know, likely allegedly whatever
the proper terminology is here, I'm not the lawyer. Please
don't come for me, Internet, you know, didn't file his
taxes properly, and if he didn't, he's gonna get charged
and he's going to owe the government a bunch of money. Fine,

(01:00:23):
But how can these sort of double standards with kids
of the president and then the presidents themselves evidence of
wrongdoing versus admittedly no evidence of any wrongdoing at all.
Why is it like this? Why why do people kind
of go, eh, Trump's just a wild card. And then
and then hold Biden's feet to the fire whip.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
What do you think that is? Well, I mean, selective
nepotism cracks me up, like it's it's only okay if
some people are privileged in this way and can their
last name. I don't know what to say about that,
but I will say, when you look at as you said,
a selective persecution, and when you want to turn a
blind eye, and when you want to look at it.

(01:01:05):
That's why politics can be so frustrating, because it can
even be completely forthcoming about your motivation, and for some
people it doesn't matter. There is an entire identity politically now.
You know you have Republicans, you have Democrats, and independence.
I think you have almost a fourth category of people.
And the fourth category is provocateur or those who are

(01:01:28):
just anti or you know what, I've been so frustrated
with the system that I am going to be the
anti system, and so whatever that means for them, they'll
latch onto. I think that what you're seeing with the
Bidens versus the Kushner's and the Trumps of the world
versus the impeachment of Trump and impeachment inquiry of Biden,

(01:01:49):
I think is really what happens when deflection is at
its peak, because think of all of the things that
need to get done right now in Congress, and the
priorities that are being set, they're not connected with what
the average person really wants and needs. It is the

(01:02:09):
idea of the point being provocation, the point being, you know,
it's not that there hasn't been some violation of the law,
and that can happen, and we can, certainly and you
should ought to look into that and investigate and prosecute
if appropriate. I stand by that. But if the whole
point is to muddy the waters and then expect people

(01:02:30):
not to thirst for different politicians and candidates, I don't
know what we can do to drill into people's heads
that while you're playing at this game, there are people
who are dying while you're playing around trying to tell
me that you'd like to inquire and to find out
if there's a reason to have the inquiry. I can

(01:02:52):
give you some inquiries about health care right now to
be answered, And I think that's what it's incumbent upon
the voters to dictate the terms for those who asked,
asked you for the opportunity to lead to represent They
weren't like you love the Hunger Games, and you don't
have to like you don't pay tribute all of a

(01:03:12):
sudden and whistle in the background, love that series. You
have to actually have like you have to actually do
you ask for the chance. Yes, you were at assigned
the role of representative, asked you asked us to do it.
So I think people have to just vocalize and voice
their frustration.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
And that's such a good reminder too, that it really
can be up to us to show them that these
distraction tactics and that this sort of smoke in mirror
show isn't going to distract us if we vote on
the issues that matter to us reproductive care and access
fundamental freedoms healthcare. We can, by voting on the actual issues,

(01:03:54):
hopefully slow down or stop the anti train, as you
you know mentioned it. I'm really excited and honestly, you
are one of the people who makes me feel relieved
that I will have somewhere to go to learn throughout
twenty twenty four as the election approaches. You know, to
be able to watch your show, to be able to

(01:04:14):
sort of gain wisdom from your analysis. So I want
to I want to sort of thank you in advance
for that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
And yeah, thank youseration. Beginning people this year I wrote, fine,
thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
But I just know we're going to get more of
what you do so well, and I'm grateful for that.
And I also, you know, I know that so often
you do get asked about the legal analysis and these
big issues and what's happening out in the field and
all of it, and so thank you for giving us
your perspective. And I also am just such a fan

(01:04:49):
of you as a person, and so I want to
be able to end on a or get closer to
wrapping up, I should say, on a more personal note.
And I I am just so enamored with the story
that your son's idol from the Bucks gave him a
pair of shoes after a recent game. And I was
just wondering, if you know, that's one of the wonderful

(01:05:12):
things I think about if you do get to have
a job in a public field, as you might get
an amazing moment like that for your kid, And I
would just love to ask about that. Yeah, so that
it is an all election, you know, wild political whatever
I want to know about the personal stuff too.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Well, look, you know, first of all, like most most
of my life is spent mommy, right, that's alka bit.
So it's funny. It's funny because my kids, like I'm
like every other mom in our phones, our friends' names
are saved under who their kid is, like, yeah, Jonah's mom.
Oh good, Jonah's mom, and that we're doing right. So
I have moments like that. And so my son is

(01:05:53):
a huge Yannis fan and he loved Janice's obviously his game,
incredible athlete, but he loved his story. He had us
all sit down and watch the movie about his life,
story about what his family struggled to do when they
were in Greece, about the bond, about hard work, about
him and his brother sharing a same pair of sneakers

(01:06:16):
and not playing at the same time, and just know
how he became a citizen here and just the entire process.
And so I was blown away by him as a
as an athlete. And I'm not somebody who loves hero
worship for your kids, like you know, I'm very cautious
about who they seek to emulate or they revere, because well, frankly,

(01:06:36):
your heroes can let you down sometimes. So I try
to help my kids say, look, what qualities do you
like about a person? Love those, and you know, think
about the rest. So I had a chance to go
to Madison Square Garden and I was given tickets. I
didn't even I shouldn't be on the court. I'm not
court material people. Okay. So I was saying, as Square

(01:06:57):
Garden and I had court side, and we thought, okay,
we're gonna be able to see. This is amazing. I've
never really been and I've been to Madison Square Garden,
but I was in the nosebleed section and happy to
be there years ago. My son had never gone there.
He loves the Bucks, and so we sat down and
I thought, oh my god, this is an incredible thing.
And we were just excited to be like, they had
free hot dogs. We were thrilled. We loved the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Then we saw the players start to come and we
were sitting next to the Milwaukee Bucks bench. Of all plazes. Wow,
my son was cheering. He was going crazy, and he
had all these little basketball cards laid out, thinking maybe
I'll get to have one of them sign it. And
of course I'm liken't ask. We're not autograph. It's a
weird thing. We don't. The rules are here, don't do anything.

(01:07:42):
I'll play it cool. I'll play cool. And so we're
sitting there and they're doing the whole celebrity cam and
all the different celebrities in the rows are highlighted and
I'm cheering for people I'm fans of, and my son
is blaser focused on the players and he's given them
high fives and given them back. The whole is like this,
and so we thought, this is so exciting. I had
a there's a towel. I took the towel. I'm like,

(01:08:06):
you go have this free towel, et cetera. And I
am saying, and you can hear in the video, I'm saying,
thank you someone to give me this towel. And all
of a sudden, the game is over and Yannis is
on the court and he motions over to my son
and says, come here, and my son's like what And
he gets up wearing the Yannis jersey and I'm like,

(01:08:26):
oh my god, my god. I jump over the seats.
I am the Papa Razi in this. I'm running between
the cameras I'm on the court and he is taking
off his sneakers and my son is grabbing his head
like his mind is blown. He's trying to keep his
brain in his head and he's like, oh my god,
oh my god. And Yannis bends over. He takes off

(01:08:47):
his shoes. He says, do you have a sharpie? Now?
My son had one Gus the basketball car, and he's like,
have one in my backpack we're somewhere or whatever. He
was no locket one. He goes and gets a sharpie.
Yan it's gets a sharpie and shoes and my son
is I'm bawling, Sophia, Oh my god. I had no
role in this. It was just the goodness of Yannis

(01:09:08):
looking at a kid having a good time of the game.
He signed the shoes, handsom to him, hogshim, does you
want to take a picture? And he's like sure, o, hey,
post for mommy, and I'm like crying and videoing it.
He says, okay, marry Christis. My son is like, thank
you so much. And then, of course, because it's me
and I'm a little bit crazy. After I'm something, I'm like, wait,

(01:09:30):
the picture didn't come back. He's like he posted it
like this, I got it, thank you. And my son
just turns. He's like, oh, Mom, and I am dying
because you know, I'm sobbing. I was like, and my son,
it was so cute. We ended up like the we'd

(01:09:53):
get like security to have a take. They were like,
don't walk through the crowd, walk behind security shoes. Now
that I'm out, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm
wrapping in a towel. I haven't like, I'm basically exposed,
but I don't fare so I have to make sure
his works. And so then later on that night, we
were actually getting back touse. I live in d C.
We're getting back to d C and my son like

(01:10:14):
wakes up from the plane and he goes he's like,
oh god, mom, Mom, where's your phone? Where's your phone?
And I'm like, oh, it's right here. He starts scrolling
through the phone. He goes, it did happen? Oh my god.
That was the day before Christmas Eve. And so when
Christmas came, the presents were there under the tree. You'd

(01:10:36):
placed them the night before. Because my kids still pretend
to indulge me and believe in Santa Claus, whether it's
or not, I don't know, but they indulge me, and
he goes, there's presence for me. I already had it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
So thank you, honest and bobbay, thank you to all
the players because they were giving them high fives. And
and I just know people assume that because maybe they've
seen me on CNN, that perhaps I had some like
Marionette like strings pulling in there. I did not. Jannis
just saw a kid and remembering what it was like
to be a kid. Yeah, so you imagine who is

(01:11:16):
your first Like if you were a kid zafia and
that person was like, come here, let me talk to
you and give you a hug. Who wish youdrry Christmas?
Would you just die?

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Oh for me?

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
Oprah? I used to ask my mom.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
I was like, mom, last period at school and by
the way, I'm an eighties baby too, And I was like,
last period at school ends at three. Oprah starts at three.
We're not learning anything at the end of the day,
so you should pick me up at two forty five
so I can have my butt in front of the
TV by three o'clock so I can learn from Oprah.
And my mom was like, you are six and a
half why are we having this converence like you are

(01:11:49):
the weirdest kid. I'm not pulling you out of school
early so you can watch Oprah. I'm not doing it.
And so then we like we agreed that my parents
would set the VCR for me, like it was a
whole thing, and as an adult like to have been
in rooms with her years ago pre pandemic. I was
invited to one of her gospel brunches at her house

(01:12:10):
and I literally dying for you. I stood in front
of the mirror and I looked at myself and I
was like, could little you have ever imagined this? Like
what what is happening? And yeah, I think it's part
of the reason that it, Like it makes me sob
to listen to you tell the story, thinking about that

(01:12:32):
experience for you as a mom and what you get
to watch, and just that people always have the capacity
for kindness like that, that's that's magical, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
I mean, that's so first of all, I am loving
the vision of you trying to get open.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
By the way, this is why my parents can't believe
I'm not a lawyer. They were like, you negotiated for
everything always, and I was like, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
What though, I think you're exactly where you look at you.
You got it, You've got your own show. There you go,
Sophia is on. That's the whole figure to there you go.
Just give out some cars and you're gonna be good
to go all it's all part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Could you imagine if I was like this week on work.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
In Progress, you get a car, you get a dor.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
I would love it. I would love it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
You know, I'm going to manifest that for you. That's
gonna be a great question that that you're that your show,
your show is going to be the one word all
of a sudden, and someone right now is going to
tell their mom or dad, I need you to pick
me up, becau, I'm not learning anything. Just tell me
a Sophia show. It's a work in progress, that's what
we're doing. I applaud it. Twenty twenty more.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
Here she comes you, sweet angel, Thank you well. That
leads me into my last and favorite question to ask
every guest, which is, what is your work in progress?

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Right now?

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
My gosh, what is my work in progress? You know?
I think my work in progress is knowing that there ever,
every dream you accomplish should tell you to dream even
bigger and feeling like that's okay and that more can happen,

(01:14:12):
and also learning more how to how to manifest, just
how to manifest completely. You know, it's you get into
the category of once you've taken a leap of faith
I certainly had in my career, two things can happen.
Either one you can think it was a fluke, or

(01:14:32):
you can keep leaping with and believe that there'll be
some soft landings or be comfortable with the hard ones.
And so for me, my work in progress is always
reminding myself to keep leaping and manifest the landing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
I love that, and honestly, it feels so fitting that
it's the second because you giving us that reminder to manifest.
I'm like, that's got to be that. That has to
be the new Year's resolution. You said it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
Let's go manifest some things.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
Let's we have cars away, let's do it all.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
We'll never forget what we seeped ourselves in, though too
hope it chokes you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
I love that. Thank you so much, Laura. This has
really been such a joy.

Speaker 2 (01:15:11):
It's so fun for me. Thank you so much. Congratulations
on all that you've accomplished and what's ahead of you
as well. It's really such a pleasure to see if
all of us were fans of yours, it's such a
pleasure to see this trajectory continue.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
Thank you so much. That means a lot.