April 4, 2024 • 67 mins
Social media star, actress, and trans advocate Dylan Mulvaney gained a huge following after she started chronicling her gender transition on TikTok two years ago . . . but with fame came hate and transphobia.
Dylan joins Sophia to talk about rising above the fray and thriving, dealing with transphobia, why she looks back on some of her original videos and cringes, debunking the ridiculous notion that she transitioned to become famous, Lady Gaga showing up for her, and her new music!
Plus, Sophia talks about her year of Yes! In 2012, she and her best friend decided to say yes to everything that felt scary . . . Sophia reveals how that worked out for her!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to an episode. I'm so excited about Whipsmarti's one
(00:21):
of my favorite people is here today. I have had
the pleasure of getting to know this guest over the
last couple of years, and really in the last year
we've become real, tried and true friends. Today my guest
is Dylan mulvaney. She is an American social media personality
who has detailed her gender transition in daily videos published
(00:43):
on TikTok since early twenty twenty two. She was able
to advocate for her community interviewing the President of the
United States, Joe Biden in twenty twenty two, during which
they spoke about trans rites and I'm sure you all
saw that. In twenty twenty three, a very sweet partnership
because Dylan, like me, is a beer girly with bud
(01:06):
light led to really terrifying violence, calls for a boycott.
A lot of very right wing conservative folks went ham
on this young woman in a way that was really
hard to watch. And yet Dylan has managed to maintain
her composure to be vulnerable about what this experience is
(01:28):
simply trying to let a little more light and a
little more love into journeys like hers, and really, as
she likes to say, the transition that we're all in
throughout our lives, whether it's figuring out who we are,
who we love, what we're passionate about, what we want
to do with our careers. In her mind, we all
have so much more in common than not. And I'm
(01:50):
so amazed by the way she's maintained this beautiful composure
in a world that has meant She's amassed more than
ten million followers on TikTok, had over billion views on
her videos, and she deals with both the courage that
she's exhibiting in the world and how that motivates others,
but also how being courageous in public can really put
(02:11):
a target on your back. She is just so inspiring
to me and also one of the kindest, funniest, goofiest,
sweetest people that I know, and I'm so excited for
all of you to get to know her today with me,
let's get to it. I feel really excited in particular
(02:41):
to ask you this question, probably of all people, because
you know, everyone I sit down across from is doing
something inspiring, is like living their most creative life is
reminding all of us to be courageous. And I always think, like,
you know, whether you're a senator or a public figure,
you know who you are as the adult that you are.
(03:02):
But I'm always really curious if there's through lines that
people can see from today's vantage point when they look
back at their childhood when they're like, you know, eight
or nine years old, when things are really kind of formative.
And I think there's a whole other interesting layer to
that first question for you because of the path your
(03:26):
life has taking you on. Do you, as you sit
in your days of girlhood to early shout out the single,
do you feel like you always saw Dylan in yourself
even when you were a little kid.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh, I think that was when I was the most
Dylan and the most feminine and the most fun and free.
And I actually I stripped so many parts of myself
away and it became sort of a shadow version.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Of myself for a really long time. But I keep.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Refinding those parts, and then they get taken away again
or I push them to the side, and then I
rEFInd them.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I find the courage to tap back into that person.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
But I think like, if I really look back at
the through line, it's I am a musical theater girl
nerd who just wants to make people laugh and make
people smile and see the good and that's like always
who I have been like since. I like it is
(04:37):
funny now having experienced so many other parts of life
than I would have ever expected that I would would
get to, including my transition, but also career and relationships
and all these things that I never thought that I
would find myself in. And at the end of the day,
my favorite thing is still like going to playbill dot
(04:59):
com and like looking to see what's going on on
Broadway right now, or listening to Wicket in my car
and belting it out with my best friend. But that
is so me at my core. And the more that
I can come back to that little kid that just
wanted to make people laugh and wanted to sing show tunes,
(05:21):
like that's the happiest, and that is when I am
the happiest. So I think that's that's kind of where
I'm at.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I love that. So if you think of yourself as
a little kid and what you wanted to be when
you grew up, are you are you doing everything and
more that you wanted when you wanted, when you thought
about your future, I.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Think I'm doing a little too much in a way,
like I'm a little extra.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I'm definitely a little extra.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think what would make my my younger self so
happy is to be back up on stage as much
as possible and whatever capacity that is. And that's kind
of the next goal is to get back got there.
But it's also you know, when people put you in
a box so they see you as this one thing,
it can be really hard to then convince people of
(06:10):
the other skills that you have or the other sides
to your life. And I'm sure that you've been in
that place too, with like specific roles that once you played,
people are like, oh, that is who you are, that's
what you're capable of. Have you found that being the
case for your life, like after you do some of
these iconic projects.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Oh, my gosh, completely, Because what I've learned is that
like our sort of surface memory is long, but our
bigger sort of lifelong memories seem to be very short.
And I think that's because you know, everyone's doing their
own thing, they're not thinking about other people oh so much.
(06:51):
But it was a really wild thing to like, for example,
when I first started on One Tree Hill, like to
be brought in as the comic relief on the show
and to be a source of comedy. And then you know,
I did a couple of years of like playing this
very and I loved her too, but this very tough
like former addict cop, and people were like, she's so
(07:14):
good at like being serious and doing action, but can
she do comedy? And I was like, I did that
for nine years, like what And I would watch people
go like, oh my god, we forgot or vice versa.
Like somebody would be like, well she you know, she
played this fashion designer who was so funny for so long,
like can she be tough? And I was like, I
do all my own stunts, you guys. People just forget
(07:35):
and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Well for example, right, like, I think the way that
I've been able to like build an audience has been
on social media, and it's been really interesting to sort
of try to steer people from just seeing me as
a trans woman that talks about her journey to then
sharing the other parts.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Of my life.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And something that's been very interesting to watch is as
I'm putting out like singing videos, for example, like people like,
still I've been putting out singing videos for years. Yeah,
and and someone like I posted one yesterday and they're like.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I had no idea you could sing and you.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Go, I'm like, we're wait what, Like We're like obviously
that wasn't on their side of the for you page
or or but that teaches me like, oh, I have
to keep showing them because there's still people that are learning.
And I think also we sometimes put an expectation of like, Okay,
we do this one thing, and that means that people
(08:34):
will get it, and they just don't all that like
there and even you know, my song came out last
week or two weeks ago, and I kind of assumed
people would understand the nuance of the song or would
understand like the intentions behind a song. And then you know,
after a few days of discourse, I was like, oh,
I think I need to tell I need to talk
(08:54):
to people about what.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
This is like.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
And especially I think because my perspective is differ and
as a trans person, not everyone is going to automatically
understand where I'm coming from or the kinds of things
that I feel called to sharing, and so as like,
there are moments where you have to let people in.
And you do have to let them whether it's a
(09:17):
joke or something really vulnerable or something as long as you.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Feel ready to share that thing.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And I think that's also a tricky part of what
we're both navigating, is like when do you let people
in and when do you keep things for yourself?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Girl, this is my journey.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I always assume people would know me as like a character,
whether it's in a television show or on stage, and
then people knew me in my personhood from the Internet,
and I was conditioned to believe that I was only
as good as my last video, and that if I
didn't put something out every single day, that I was
(09:53):
no longer interesting or like worthy of the success. And
you get to a place where, once you've talked about,
you know, a certain number of things, you're like, oh my,
I guess I have to talk about this now, or
you know, I don't think I'm fully ready.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But let's let's talk about this. And it gets tricky because.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
None of your audience is ever going to say, oh, Dylan,
don't share that.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
We don't want to hear that right now.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Like everybody, they want whatever they can get, and especially
the people that you know, love you or fascinated by you,
or like you feel like it's a parasocial relationship. And
so scaling that back has been so scary because I
sort of set this precedent that I'm going to share
my entire life with you and then to be like, oh,
(10:43):
just kidding, not everything that can be frustrating to, you know,
the people that have seen your journey. But I also
think that as long as I'm keeping them updated with
the why and the hey, I need to take care
of whether it's my mental health or my relationships or
so much of.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
My personal life kind of fell to.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Like the shit show of of like the behind the scenes,
and then I was keeping this really strong front on
for for the media and for my following, and now
I have, like I have, I'm playing cleanup on the
rest of my life.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And I will say, like.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Meeting your group of friends, the you know, Jedediah, brit Julianne,
like those people, you all have really taught me how
to like enjoy life and savor things just for me
and not for Like I think I was confusing going
to an event as like a social engagement, where like
(11:49):
it was actually kind of work, like like we were
there for a specific reason or were there. A lot
of the times I get invited somewhere to like make content,
and and that's tricky too, because I'm like, oh, oh,
I'm here because they want me to do this thing,
and and when I'm with you all, it's often in
a backyard around a fire pit, or you know, hopefully
(12:09):
planning a camping trip, or you know, going and doing
things with people that like are only interested in just
getting to know you better as a person, and you
leave feeling more filled than emptied. And that's been I
think my greatest sort of joy this past year has
been like building friendships back up and like savoring the
(12:33):
little personal relationships in my life and.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Meeting new people.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And I don't know that like that group of friends
did you how did you find them? And they what
are they to you?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I mean definitely, I think having really healthy relationships is
the foundation of a healthy life. And for me, it's
like crazy to think that it's almost twenty years ago now,
before conferences were are cool and like you know, branded
and everybody wanted to go to them. I was at
a conference meeting other people who wanted to make the
(13:08):
world a better place, and that's where Jed and I
became friends. We had been best friends ever since, and
you know, I was part of the gang that convinced
him and Kenny to move to LA from San Diego.
And you know I met Britt through them because she
had volunteered for their nonprofit right out of high school.
And like we really we built a community based on service,
(13:32):
which was always a really big deal. And I think,
you know, we were friends before social media. We've we've
worked kind of through it. And when you talk about
you know, what you give versus what you hold for yourself,
Like I feel that in my bones because I think
there's something really important to remember about the fact that
(13:53):
most of us lived a life before there was the
opportunity to have part of your life online. And I
think when you are an advocate, when you want to
show up to encourage other people to do the same,
to make other people feel safe to be who they are,
that is wonderful. And you have to remember that it's
(14:16):
also not your reality. It's a piece of it. Like
you said, people who follow you and think they see
your content every day will miss entire things. Now it's
a big deal if ten percent of your audience engages
with something you post, So you have to think about
how many people just don't see things yet, how many
(14:36):
people are chronically online and perhaps don't even realize that
in their subconscious they assume that if they don't see it,
it isn't happening, or vice versa, when you have a
whole life happening. And I think there's also this weird
thing where people want the optics to continue, They want
the numbers to continue, they want they want that parasocial
(15:02):
fame to continue. You know, now I'm beginning to really
see through like people trying to win optics wars, for example,
Like when people are going through big life changes or whatever,
I'm like, Oh, somebody who's out there trying to win
the optics war is doing so because they're worried about
what else is going to come out. Interesting, like, I've
started to value people who stay quiet and who go slow,
(15:24):
and who have their experiences before they talk about them
so they can talk about them in healthy and honest ways.
And I don't think I could have seen that five
years ago, but I see it now really clearly, and
so I actually think it's a sign of emotional health
and of really good self care when you have the
(15:46):
capability to say, I'm not really ready to share about this.
I'm going to take my time and make sure when
I do that it's not reactive, that it's authentic and honest,
that it's kind to everyone, and as much as it
can be, Like, I find that to be really really valuable.
(16:06):
And so even in our friendship, like we became friendly
with each other online, but then in the interactions we
began having offline, I was like, Oh, that's a whole
person that I really want to know, support and be
around for. And I really value that, and I value
that in all my relationships like you're talking.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
About, I felt the same way, like when getting to
meet you and actually getting to like talk about the
very real things, like I think because we both share
parts of our lives, and then getting to share other
parts of our lives just the two of us was
so epic.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But what I see on are you on? Do you
scroll a lot on TikTok? Not?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Really, I'm not that great at it. My friends are
constantly trying to like get me to do it, so
like I'll get like sections of videos from friends and
then like depending on what people are sending me, it'll
like show me more of that in the algorithm. But
I probably I spend like a night on TikTok, like
(17:06):
I don't know, every three weeks. I also my friends
make fun of me. They're like, you're such a boomer
because every video everyone's ever sent to me, like I
save so I can like have it as a resource.
And they're like, TikTok is not pinterest, like what are
you doing? And I'm like, I don't know how any
of this works.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I that is that you saying that you only scroll
like every three weeks is the healthiest thing I've.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Ever heard in my entire life.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I can't do it anymore because I really will get
lost in it. And like I'm such an adult and
I get lost in it. I can't imagine what it's
like for teens who've never not had it. It scares me.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, it's I think it's designed to be addictive.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I also think what's funny is like I'm it's my job,
like it's my primary income, and I'm like the first
person and be like, oh, you don't need to be
on there every night, like because I am. I really
like I have a deep addiction to it. I'm also
wildly grateful to it because I think it's one It's
very different than like even Instagram, where you know, Instagram,
(18:06):
it takes kind of a long time to build up
an audience and for people to find you, and but
TikTok Is is like it was instantaneous, like a straight shot.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
To the moon.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It felt it was fast for you.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh my gosh, I think I had like a million
followers in seventeen days.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Oh my god, babe, the pressure. And now a word
from our wonderful sponsors before we go into more of
this internet identity. I actually this is reminding me or
(18:42):
just pinging my brain that I haven't asked this question,
which I think in some ways must overlap for you
because you are young, you are on social media. You
have had this really fast rise which has come with yes,
a big audience and supports some but also like wild
ass backlash. How you've had to discover your social media
(19:06):
identity certainly, But has that helped you in the discovery
process of your gender identity too, or did that feel
like it was always happening for you as a kid,
you always knew that you always knew who you were
and that your body wasn't aligning, like how did the
(19:26):
first discovery happen? And how does the internet play into it.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I came out at four years old to my mom
as a girl, and that was it was the year
two thousand or two thousand and one. And there's no
judgment in my heart for not getting to like fulfill
that prophecy, because you know, it was a very different time.
(19:50):
The resources, especially for trans youth were so different, and
my family just trying their best and.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Well and your family's pretty conservative, right, yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I think what is I've always come from the place
of like I never want to live in like the
what ifs, and and even you know, throughout high school,
I remember puberty was a very sensitive time because I
didn't like what was happening to my body and I
was started lashing out and it was fascinating too. I
actually like I was wearing women's clothes and you know,
(20:22):
how to purse at school, and like throughout high school,
and I really like always walked to the beat of
my own drum. And but I overall, like I loved theater.
It was my favorite thing. And I knew to be
successful in commercial theater that like I couldn't be that woman.
I couldn't be that feminine of a human. So I
(20:44):
kind of like sort of stripped those parts away and
got into the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music and became this
really clean cut J crew type and it worked, like
I got Book of Mormon the musical right after college,
and I but like those that gender dysphoria was always there.
(21:06):
And that's where like the Internet did not really like
the there are parts of me sharing my transition journey
online that I guess were helpful, And a lot of
that comes back to like the support from people, like
the kind messages, the you know, the messages from parents
(21:27):
that say, hey, you know my kid's been going through this.
You're the kind of the link between the two of us,
and we love watching your videos together.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Like that makes it worth it.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
The extreme amounts of like hate and transphobia and misgendering
like that definitely doesn't help. And I have to constantly
be like, okay, is this work? Like is you putting
yourself out there right now? Like is this it to
a detriment of of your transition? Luckily, I mean I
was on hormones for months before I made my first
(21:59):
days girlhood video. So that was, you know, something I
had like come out to my family and friends and
everything like that beforehand.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I also.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Like I went by bay them pronouns for the year
before I even came out as a woman, and so
there was like quite the lead up. But I never
expected to like take it online. I was doing stand
up comedy in LA and my first video is supposed
to be sort of this like comedy take on on,
like a coming out video, and then it turned into
(22:33):
something so much more.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
But that was it was always such a huge part
of me.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
And in what's scary I think is like how the
media is villainizing trans people right now. It's it's quite
scary because I think back to that, you know, the
eight or nine year old we were talking to at
the beginning of this this SPoD and I was the
(23:01):
least confrontational, least like rock the boat kind of person,
kid human girl, and so all of these moments of
like seeing myself being perceived as like a villain is
so insane to me because I'm like, we're are they
(23:24):
not seeing the Broadway nerdy theater kid that most of
my friends get to see and like the it And
that's where I have to look around my life and
I see specifically that the women that are in my
life and support me, and I go, oh, these are
the people that I want to have on side or
on my side, not conservative media outlets or political figures
(23:49):
or you know, like I've got the support around the
fire pit, and I've got the support from my best
friend Lily, who has known me for seventeen years. I've
got the support of my and my sister. I've got
the support of you just really awesome human beings. And
if that can be a testament enough to this being
(24:11):
who I am and who I've always been, then that's
enough for me.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
But back to sort of like the TikTok of it all.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
What worries me that I see happening a lot is
because you were talking about, you know, people kind of
like stirring up just to stir up online, I see
a lot of like the clickbait stuff is getting really bad.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
That's really bad.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
And I even see certain creators like because it performs well,
like some really transphobic content that starts getting pushed by
algorithms on these apps, and so other people are like, oh,
that's a way to get views or that's a person
to talk about. And even I've seen like queer creators
(25:00):
is talking about other queer creators in certain ways that
it just like it feels really unproductive to like pushing
us forward as as a community. And I don't know,
I just get nervous about like, I never want to
post anything that's gonna, you know, set anyone back. I
(25:23):
never want to put anything out there that is, you know,
hurtful to anyone else.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
It's just it's a slippery slope. But I will say.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
That I'm finding I'm finding those moments for myself to
keep close good.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I'm glad, you know. I think it is really important
for us, especially at a time where we treat social
media like currency, but we also forget how dangerous it
can be. And I think you have to be really
really clear, you know, we all need to self interrogate
(26:02):
and say how do I want to participate in this
space and what is this for? And I think to
your point, when we're talking about this rise in really
dangerous rhetoric that hurts already at risk populations, like one
of the things that feels really important for me to
constantly point out to people because I think it's really
(26:26):
I think it's really crucial that we make sure that
the people who are the most affected by something are
not the people who have to scream about it from
the rooftops. Like, it's the reason that as women we
need men to be talking about rape culture because hello,
like they're the perpetrators of this violence by and large,
(26:48):
And I think is an incredibly important reason why. You know,
for us, as white women, we need to talk about
the risks that society has baked into women of color.
And I think it's incredibly important for cisgendered women to
be really clear about how dangerous the world is for
trans women. And it is the reason last March I
(27:10):
was in New York for a big ceremony for the
National Institute of Reproductive Health. Obviously, like our reproductive freedom
is on the line. The Republicans are trying to ban
reproductive care and abortion, and they're also trying to ban IVF.
So like, hello, anyone who wanted to say a year
ago that this was not just simply to control women,
I'm like, well, the writing's on the wall now. We've
(27:32):
been telling you welcome to this terrible party we're all
at that we don't want to be at, and at
this event. The thing I wanted to point out to
use my time. You know, they gave me an award.
It was very nice. It's glass, it's beautiful. I was like, look,
I don't I don't think there's any conversation we need
to be having other than if we are not centering
(27:52):
trans women and our reproductive advocacy, we're failing. Because we
saw in twenty twenty three and it's continued now more
historically conservative women showing up to vote in support of abortion,
in support of reproductive rights access because by the way
abortion birth control IVF, it's all tied. And in the
(28:15):
states where abortion is the most easily accessible, women have
the least number of abortions. Like, whether you like it
or not, these are just the facts. If you don't
want to have one, don't have one. We're moving on.
And I said to this room, I was like, make
no mistake. The fact that conservative women in droves are
showing up to vote on abortion in support means that
(28:36):
these conservative folks who only get voted for when they
can create outrage, have to figure out a new way
to attack bodily autonomy. And it is why you see
the most legislation against the LGBTQ plus community in history,
over six hundred bills at this point. And it is
why they are going after trans kids, trans athletes, trans people.
(28:56):
It's why you're seeing a surge in you know, the
assault in murder of our trans communities in this country,
Like they are doing this to our most vulnerable population
so that they can continue to make attacks on bodily
autonomy seem acceptable, they can make bodily autonomy seem dangerous.
Like to be clear, my sweet angel, you, being this
(29:19):
beautiful girl that you have always been does nothing to
my womanhood but make me feel more excited to wear
pink and like I'm your friends who's always wearing black,
And when I'm with you, I'm like, oh my god,
I need a pink cashmir swater. Like that's it. And
we must be clear, like our communities have to be
really clear about what's going on, how insidious it is,
(29:41):
and how we have to show up for each other.
And I know I've said this to you in private,
but I will say it on my podcast. Anybody who
focks with you, fockx with me, Like let's go, we're
in it together.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I'm in it with you, And you know, speaking back
to like the overturning of Roe v Wade. I remember
it was actually like earlier on in my series of
Days of Girlhood, within my first year of transition, and
I was learning so much about not like it was
kind of catching up to, you know, because I like,
(30:13):
I wasn't as clued in as shinny women on.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Well you mean you don't know everything about everything at
every moment of your whole life?
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Wow, No, not yet.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And I but I made a video that day because
I really thought about how what we are asking for
is not very different, and it is its permission over
our own bodies. And funny enough, the way that people
are attacking gender firm and care, A lot of the
times people attacking it are the people that are actually
(30:44):
getting the same surgeries but just calling it something different.
Or I think that there's there's such a deep connection
between a transnsists woman if they'll let it happen and let.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
It be there.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Because the more that we focus on our differences, they
become very obvious and very factual. But the more that
we focus on what we have in common, that's when
like true connection and like productivity can happen.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Because I want to honor every single version of womanhood.
I want to.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Find whatever it is in a feminine person, whether that's
a transperson or this person's idea of what a woman
is to them, and then I want to be able
to honor that within myself and not feel apologetic about
what that means to me. And even with the song
coming out, people like assumed that my version of girlhood
(31:47):
or womanhood is this very frivolous thing, or it's this
very sort of juvenile thing, and it's so not. There's
so much pain, there's so much resentment and anger and
jealousy and all these things that are within me that
are my womanhood. And yet I wanted to make a
really fun, frivolous song of like two percent of what
(32:11):
my experience has been. And yet people then, like we
talked about at the beginning, they put you in a
box and so they say this is who you are,
this is who you think we are, and it's not.
And I think the more that we can have conversations
like this one, the closer we get to the tricky
(32:33):
part is is than having those conversations with people who
maybe don't feel the same way or aren't on the
same page yet and I've had a lot of those
in my personal life, Like you know, even with the
women in my.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Family who I am.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
A lot of people's first trans person that they think
they've met, at least they probably met others, but they
didn't know.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
And I've watched.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Things get better and and things heal, and people start
to understand when they want to, And those who had
a personal connection with me before my transition, most if
not all, have found some sort of peace with me
stepping into my because it's it's not to be.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
What's it called.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
It's not an opinion of someone to say that, like
I am one hundred percent doing better than I was
like before I stepped into my true self, and anyone
that knew me before can tell you that. And so
I'm really interested on those like the granular relationship level
of like outside of social media, outside of making videos
(33:47):
for millions of people, when I meet someone that maybe
doesn't understand someone like me, that I can leave them
maybe even just a sliver of less resentful than they
were going in to the relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yes, I love that. And now a word from our
sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too,
you know, I can't imagine that it's easy to share
your life and the lessons you're learning with people you
know you have a very different journey. But I think
(34:23):
about a guest from season one on Work in Progress,
my friend May Martin, who you know made an incredible
show on Netflix. Feel good for everyone listening about their
whole journey. You know, back when May came on the podcast,
they were still using both she and they pronouns. They
hadn't had TOP surgery yet, and I've used their story
(34:46):
from their stand up special a bunch in some of
the advocacy work that I do offline with folks, and
they said something that I thought was so profound about,
you know, having had tops and having been on tea
for a year, and said, look, it's not that it
shifted my life in some way and everything is different
(35:08):
and everything, you know I'm paraphrasing, but not like everything
is perfect and amazing and I've never been sad. I'm
just not in agony every second of every day. I
have a little space to breathe in my own body.
And listening to them talk about it, like I've brought
that up to people who don't quite get it yet
and said why would you deny anybody the right to
live with less agony, to be able to breathe more
(35:31):
comfortably in their body. Their body has nothing to do
with you. And so I think for everyone who's on
any version of a journey to figure out who they are,
we should be supportive. We should be excited because people's joy,
whether it's finding love or learning to love themselves, or
(35:54):
queerness or transness or any any version of it, is
about coming home to them. Yeah, and that I think
is profound, and I will say, if I may, I
think it's also why a lot of people who don't
have friends in the way that I'm lucky enough to
have you and other folks like may in my life
(36:15):
maybe are afraid because you're choosing joy in the face
of so much danger and judgment in the world. Like
it is such an act of freedom, and I think
a lot of people don't feel free, and so they
are very intimidated by people who will pursue their own
(36:39):
freedom no matter what, people who will not turn their
backs on themselves anymore. I think it can be very confronting,
and it's easier to be confronted and react with anger
than to be confronted and admit.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
You are afraid, right, And a lot of people go
to confront my success and my wins and my really
come up and they'll challenge it as like, oh, she
transitioned to get famous or she is fit because oh
my gosh, yes, one hundred.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
People say that to you. Yes, you're like cool, Yeah,
I just put myself at like immense risk of violence
and decided to do one of the hardest things in
the world for TikTok.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
No. They were like, this washed up gay man, and
I'm like, honey.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I was doing a Broadway musical, Like I wasn't exactly
in the worst place in the world, no, I But
what I find so fascinating about that thought process is
like I believe that I stepped in and told the
world this is who I am, and that's when the
world decided, Okay, now we're ready to introduce everyone to
(37:47):
her because.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
She is who she's supposed to be now.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
And that is the tricky thing about simultaneously finding this
success but also being in the beginnings of a transition.
I'm only now two years in and I meet you know,
trans women who are fifteen, twenty thirty years into their
journeys and They're like, girl, just you just you wait.
And I already feel so differently about things that I've
(38:14):
said a year ago or my first you know, I've
watched like videos of myself.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
And just like cringe. You'd be like, oh my god,
what was I knowing?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Okay, wait what does that mean? Though? Like what does
that feel like when you when you say I look
back and go, oh, like what do you what do
you see? What's different?
Speaker 3 (38:29):
It reminds me of that movie eighth Grade.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
That's like the sort of the awkward you know, like
in a way, I'm going through a second puberty because.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
My body's changing.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm trying to wrap my head around these really complex
subjects and stepping into conversations that I've never been in
before even had heard of before, and now I'm being
platformed to speak on them. And I I think I'm
like watching sort of like my awkward self evolve and
(39:03):
grow and actually taking account of what I can speak on,
what I'm ready to. And then it's also like, you know,
sometimes we look back at ourselves and like with a haircut.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
And we're like, what were what was I thinking? And
it's similar in the way I.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Got famous in the early aughts. My every bad haircut
I've ever had is memorialized on television. It's my nightmares.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And but then isn't there something great about like being like,
well I did that, Like that was me and owning
it and being like I really lead to people had
the media literacy and the nuance to understand that we
can change and we we.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
We evolve from those people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And and while that might have been the reason that
they liked me in the first place, that me growing
up and me stepping into adulthood in a more deeply
complex way is actually what they should want from me,
and not to be like forever infanto. Yeah, And I
(40:02):
think with trans women, we often are deeply infantilized or
deeply sexualized because people don't really know where else to
put us. And I leaned into infantilization because I was
so scared of being sexualized that I thought it was
easier to kind of like put that part of my
life away, you know, to be palatable, to be liked,
(40:26):
to be non threatening. And now that's something that I'm
finding again, like finding that balance of like, Okay, I
feel sexy, how how do I share that with the world?
Or I feel you know, ready to tackle this part
of my life. And I think that's where being more
(40:48):
than just one thing is important. And Rene Rapp is
a dear friend of mine and one of her first
songs was Everything to Everyone.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
It's like, I can't be everything to everyone.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
And sometimes I do think I try to be everything
to everyone, and I feel miserably because it's not possible.
But yeah, I think I don't know. I don't know,
but I feel like kind of happy right now.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
How do you feel? Are you happy?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I am so happy? But it's interesting. It's also been
really hard, and I think what I've had to deal
with this year, in particular finally deciding to stop trying
to push the rock up the mountain, you know, to
stop being on that sissyphy and journey of if I
(41:40):
just work harder and if I just push farther and
if I just do more of this and if I
just then I'll be happy. It's like maybe instead of
life feeling like a torture marathon, it could feel like water.
Maybe everything could be in flow, Maybe everything can move easily.
And I don't think I even knew until I knew
(42:02):
that I had just been bred for the hard part,
you know, I was. I did it my whole life
as a kid in my house. I did it my
whole career, thinking like, you're so fortunate to have this job,
and yes, you know, you guys all work for this
man who's a sexual predator and he's the worst, but
he's not here all the time, so just be happy
when he's not here with your friends. And then when
(42:24):
he's here, keep smiling because you don't want anybody to know,
because if the if you girls talk about this and
the show gets canceled, this whole crew of two hundred
people who support their families will lose their jobs and
it'll be your fault because you're ungrateful, like you know it.
I didn't even know what that taught me. How I
learned to disassociate, how I learned to always perform gratefully
(42:47):
and ignore literal trauma. And it took me being diagnosed
with PTSD to understand the journey I had been on
in a couple of really toxic work environments and then
how to learn in my own mental health care journey
to proudly claim my art and all of the great
(43:09):
sets I've worked on and the scenes I've loved to do,
and the wonderful people and to say this was unhealthy
and I need to learn to separate the two. Like,
that's really been a journey. And so here I am
at the end of this year where I finally learned
that twenty years of working that way taught me to
do it in my actual life as well. And that's
(43:30):
so like, what a bummer. That's been really hard.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Yes, are you disassociating less lately?
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Absolutely? Absolutely? And so it's been really interesting when I
finally decided to stop pushing the rock up the hill
last summer and be really honest about how I felt
in my life and how hard I tried to put
the whole list together and I made everything perfect on paper,
(43:59):
and and I just decided to let it go. I
find myself now, almost a year out from that, having
never been happier, but also having never been more anxious.
It's like to be so holy. Yourself is so vulnerable,
it's so sensitive. There are days when I wake up
and I feel like I've just been beaten head to
toe by a baseball bat. The Internet is hard and scary.
(44:23):
I've also left it for months at a time, and
I'm starting to learn things that I didn't even know.
Like the closest people to me are like, you know,
you're really this serious political person on the internet, but
in life you're like goofy and emotional and you probably
cry once a day, either because you're overwhelmed or like
you see something beautiful and it like moves you to tears.
(44:45):
You're funny, You're never silly online, and I'm like, I'm not.
I don't even realize, but I feel you, like in
my bones, like my chest feels like it's swelling right now,
because there is so much more to us than we
could ever possibly be on one of these like on
a frickin two dimensional phone screen, and we deserve to
(45:06):
be that.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, I disassociate the most when I'm trying to maintain
an idea of.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Myself for us, when you're trying to perform yes.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And I also know when when I take too much on,
like work wise, and it gets really overwhelming, that I
go into that same sort of disassociative headspace and be like, Okay,
what would Dylan say right now?
Speaker 3 (45:29):
What would Dylan do?
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I have?
Speaker 2 (45:30):
And I think it's it's been so nice to now
see the getting out from the other side of that
and be like, Okay, that wasn't healthy. And just because
you were providing opportunities for others or you were doing
really well financially or whatever, it was like that you
were convincing yourself that that disassociate dissociation was worth it
(45:51):
actually isn't. And I'm getting better at saying no. But
funny enough, I was with Kenny last night and he
told me about your you had a year of Yes,
and they of like, hell, yes or something like that.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh my gosh, twenty twelve. My best friend Jenny and
I just we both were like, why are we letting
fear and fear of failure and fear of getting it
wrong rule our lives? Like everybody feels when they're learning
new skills. Everybody tries things that don't work sometimes and
(46:30):
that's okay, Like why do we feel like unless we're
going to be perfect at something, we can't even attempt it.
That makes your life so small? So you know, we
were moommates for ten years and we decided to make
twenty twelve our year of Yes, and we just said
yes to everything. Every trip, every adventure, every opportunity, every lecture,
(46:50):
every conference, every random night to go see a concert,
and like one of them resulted in going to this
place that doesn't exist in La anymore. I'm so sad
I miss it. But it was this cool, little like
viby sort of jazzy club. And we went with friends
one night that we didn't know very well, and we
wound up at a secret prints concert and Prince sang
(47:10):
for three hours to like one hundred people in a room,
and we were like, this is why the Year of
Yes is iconic. You know, we would have never had
this experience, and I don't know, it's like it was.
It was things like that that were once in a
lifetime opportunities and then moments where we just decided to
say yes to something that felt scary and it was incredible.
(47:32):
And the cool thing about challenging myself to say yes
to so many things is I also learned eventually how
to say no. I learned what felt so good to me,
and I learned what felt like pressure. And yet here
I am, and you know, twenty twenty four, realizing that
last year I had to learn, I had to learn
(47:55):
how much I was still saying yes to things that
I knew somewhere deep down my bones were not good
for me, but I was really, really trying to get
it right. And again, I know that that's been seismic
and difficult, and it has taken such courage to make
(48:16):
changes in my life. And I know that I have
it so much easier than so many other people. And
so when we talk about this like learning to say yes,
learning to be your whole self, no matter how scary
it is, again I come back, my friend. I think
about you, and I'm just like, part of why you
(48:37):
are so inspiring, and I think part of why folks
who come from a more conservative bent, who are afraid
of your freedom, I think part of why you're scary
to them is because courage is contagious. When you see
someone be courageous, you go, well, if they could do it,
maybe I could too. And that is priceless and profound.
(48:59):
And I know it's not easy for you, but I like,
I really, I'm just so proud of you because you're
doing it.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
I don't feel that's I think that's the weirdest part
of when people say that to me, I'm like, who
are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Well, of course, because you feel like your whole self,
not just your brave self. You're also scared, and you're
also nervous, and you're also learning, but you are brave,
You really.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Are I And it's so just like a contradictory to
like who I was as a young person, scaredy as cat.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
But I think I'm in.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
My year of maybe, and I love that I'm trying
to be really.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Thoughtful with a yes and with it.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
And what I'm trying to be better about is saying
yes to things that I normally wouldn't and trying those
new things out. Because you know, what I realized too
is I'm twenty seven right now, and I was, you know,
finding myself kind of over working in a crazy capacity
(50:08):
over the last few years, and I thought, oh my god,
what if I like make all my dreams come true?
But then I didn't have any fun in the you know,
or like convincing yourself that they're like you were having
fun even though you were disassociating. And now like getting
to fill my life out with the other parts and
like I even have this vision board behind me and
(50:31):
like a bunch of the things have already happened, but
one of them is sloth. I want to go camping,
and I specifically want to go with Jed and I
want to go with you, yes, and and like that's
something that I think two years ago I probably would
have never even put up there, because that felt selfish
to me to want to go do something.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
That, oh, we're going, we're going done. I'm literally going
to get my calendar out when we're done with this interview.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
We're going to make a plan, we're going to go.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
I also think that now the streamline of all these
things were the things that I can make happen for
myself versus waiting for other people to make them happen
for me. And I think it's I'm really letting go
of expectations of others. Funny enough, like Lady Gaga is
(51:17):
on the board and I got to meet her a
two weeks ago at her house for dinner and and
she released sort of like a statement in to support me.
And that was one of those moments where I've never
put an expectation on anyone in my life to like
(51:39):
show up in that capacity for me, and yet she did.
And that's when like, because there were no expectations there,
Like I was just blown out of the water in
disbelief because I was like wow, and I think that
just goes to show like, like the manifestation is real,
and also that like letting people support you in the
(52:03):
ways that they can best and to not by your
standards but to theirs is epic. And I think I
just feel so lucky right now. I feel so wildly
grateful to like have made it through some of these
really dark moments and been stronger because of it.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yeah, and now for our sponsors, you know what, I
think some of those really big moments, like a manifestation
of meeting one of your heroes, I think sometimes that's
also a little bit of the magic of the universe,
because when you're on the receiving end of, you know,
(52:50):
an audience of ten million on TikTok, that means you're
on the receiving end of a bigger audience of haters too,
And so I think sometimes the universe will say to you,
you're gonna have this outsized moment to remind you that
you're on the right path, whether it's with her or
like you're sit down with the president in twenty twenty two.
Like for me, I think we've been through these generations
(53:13):
of such enormous social change and evolution. There's no way that,
especially with some of our older politicians, they weren't on
like the wrong side of history back in the day,
that they're on the better side now. And like for
me to see you sit down with the president and
have him just one hundred percent behind you and advocating
(53:34):
for trans kids, I'm just like, this is what we want,
Like we want the people that are our parents' age
to get more progressive with age now weren't closed off,
and like, I don't know, it just it made my
heart so happy. And maybe because I've seen that in
my own parents, Like my parents are just like ride
or die on the train of social progress in ways
(53:56):
that like they weren't even when I was in high school.
And it's so cool to see, Like not to say
that Joe Biden is my dad or yours, but he
does give off like great dad energy. What was that
like to sit down with him?
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Was it like was it.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Easy because he felt familial or was it insane because
he's the president? Or was it both?
Speaker 3 (54:13):
I mean I still was like, what the hell am
I doing here? Because that was again very early in
my journey.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
Really I did not consider it myself a political person
or an active you know, I still don't call myself
an activist because I think that's something to really be earned.
And also there are specific facets of transness that I
feel comfortable speaking on, and then others that I know
now that I'm not well versed enough in in that
(54:41):
conversation too, I think as much as I'm so grateful
forgetting to do it, I do think there was about
one hundred thousand trans people that probably weren't more equipped
than I was for that. But I'm so grateful because
what that did was that was kind of the beginning
of when I saw an influx of hate and transphobia
and going to sit down, whether you know you're for
(55:06):
Biden or not, to to get that confirmation that like
the most powerful person in the world is says that
they support you. I think that was like enough for
me to be like, okay, I can I'm doing this,
Like this is still who I am. I have less
shame about it now because of the situation. And like again,
(55:28):
and it disassociated. It was disassociative in a different kind,
like in a good way because I was like basically
like like playing with the dog in the Oval office,
and then like Joe Biden gives me a cookie and
you know, wrapped with like a gold seal on it.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
I was just like, what is going on right now?
Speaker 2 (55:50):
But I do think that like it's it's so My
favorite thing is like sort of like intergenerational conversation specifically
usually with my two old women, because there's so much
that I can learn from them in their womanhood, and
and when we have those moments, I'm like, oh, hell yeah,
it's it's. I always was the kid at the pool
(56:11):
party that like was like with the mom in the
kitchen while all the other kids were like playing by
the pool and and getting to like watch or the
women you know in my life that I met get
to ask me questions, like even you know, I was
out of dinner last week for a very small like
screening of a film, and there was a much older
(56:34):
actress there who an icon and if she sat next
to me and started asking some of my questions, some
questions about my transition, and some of them were not
the most like appropriate dinner conversations we having, especially with
someone new to my life or you know, just to
us meeting. But I could tell that like the fascination
(56:57):
that she had was so pure hearted and also like
I felt safe enough to like go there with her,
so I did, and I know that we both left
feeling really like connected and inspired and knowing that I.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
Had her support. And so I think that, like there's.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
So much beauty that can come from not shying away
from getting connected like that.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
Yeah, and again that you felt comfortable, you were able
to take a moment with someone that you know, if
she'd ask those questions off someone else in your position,
they might have been uncomfortable. And sometimes I think to
meet people's curiosity, giving them the benefit of the doubt
(57:43):
and helping them know better so that they do better,
Like that's also so important, And that's something I worry
that the Internet is kind of canceling out of us,
And I hope that we can begin, as you said,
to really practice nuance so that we can create more
nuance in our world. You know that feels like a
(58:05):
big deal.
Speaker 3 (58:06):
I have a one question for you.
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Do you have any advice for me to like setting
boundaries and now that you've like navigated this for so long,
like specific to.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
Like what you think would be healthy for me to do.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
I mean, yes, I feel like we could do a
whole nother podcast about this, and I want to really
deep dive on it with you, but I will say
I think I think one of the most important things
that I have learned that helps me to set a
boundary is that our emotional reactions are quick and our
emotional learning is long, and so if you are responding
(58:45):
or doing out of a reactive place, it won't wind
up being a good thing. Learning to practice patients and
go slow and wait has been one of the greatest
sort of exercises and also transformative yeah, practices of my life.
(59:06):
And so we will talk so much more about that
than our next bonfire. But I'm excited for you. I mean,
I think even asking the question is so great. I
think boundaries are medicine, and yeah, we have plenty to
dig into there. I can't believe we've been talking for
an hour. I hate it. I want to ask you
(59:26):
seven hundred more questions, but we'll do a part two
at some point. But I need to know, well two
things because I really want to come back around to music. Since,
as you said, Days of Girlhood came out two weeks ago,
you are having like pure unadulterated joy as a singer.
You have the voice of an Angel. Hello, It's why
you come from Broadway and I can't wait for you
to get back there. Are you releasing more music? Where
(59:49):
can people find it? And then I'll ask you my
actual last question.
Speaker 2 (59:52):
Okay, days of girlhoads streaming on like all the spots
like Spotify and Apple Music. I I don't actually know
what the plan is for music right now because it
was such a it was a very bittersweet experience putting
this out there, and I think I really now want
(01:00:13):
to focus on people hearing my like my voice and
my actual singing voice, and not just like the fun
of it. But I want it to be because I'm
not trying to be like a musician by any means.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
I want it to always be something I.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Come back to because I have to and because it
feels like the exact thing that I'm supposed to do
and I'm not having that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Moment right the second.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
So yeah, and now, like like I I just posted
as singing with Chris Colfer like an old Broadway standard duet,
and that felt really yummy, And so I think it's
it's finding the different the different versions of music for me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
I love that and that too, don't forget it takes
courage to say, Ooh, I tried this and I don't
think I liked it, or maybe that's not for me.
Right now, I'm gonna go this way. Yeah, that's that too,
is brave, so don't you forget it. It kind of
feels like in that spirit, you know, being willing to
(01:01:12):
show up and experiment and keep try and keep learning.
All of this period, not only of your life and music,
but of the last couple of years and your transition
and your your pursuit of your most authentic identity all
feels like a work in progress. But if you think
about from today looking forward, like into the spring and summer,
(01:01:35):
into where you want to go, what you next want
off that vision board, what feels like your work in
progress as you look out at the future.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Ooh, I think I need to fall back in love
with being me.
Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
And because I was.
Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
When I came out as a woman, I fell in
love with my identity and with who I was and
the confidence that I was feeling in the new joys,
and then I had that kind of tarnished for a second.
Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
And now I'm like refining that again.
Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
And I think as helpful as the support is from followers,
or strangers that I meet in the street or my family.
Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Like it has to come within myself.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
So I also think, like it's funny because I'm starting
to date and what I've gathered is like I have
to like I'm the hottest when I think that I'm
hot or that like I think that I'm worthy, and
that it can't come from an external.
Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Source or like validation.
Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
So it's all encompassing of like loving the art that
I'm putting out, leaving that song the way that I
just apologized basically for like, oh I don't like music,
I don't, you know, Like why am I doing this?
I need to like love the fact that I did
that for myself and claim it. And I think that's
also is like standing by my decisions and my content
(01:03:04):
in my opinions and my identity and not being apologetic
for it. So I think that's where I am working.
I'm a work in progress, and I think for anyone listening,
I just hope that they can see that the transition
that I'm going through is just a different version of
the transition that they're going through, and it might not
(01:03:26):
have anything to do with gender, but how beautiful it
would be if we were all just fascinated instead of
hateful or darkly and deeply confused by people, and just
found a little bit of wonder.
Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
I love that. I love that because you know what
I really think it is. I think generationally it's been
so dangerous to be a human in the world that
we have been cultured to want the spotlight on us.
So it's like, oh, well, if you're mad at all
those people over there, you won't be mad at me,
(01:04:04):
if you know, in like evolutionary times, it's like, well,
if that village on that side of the mountain is
getting attacked, will be safe over here? We shouldn't be
attacking anyone. We we have generations of economic understanding, we
have generations of mental health understanding, we have we know better,
(01:04:25):
we can actually create systems that work for everyone and
don't make anyone feel like they're threatened. And if we
actually keep everybody safe, we can just all be safe
and we don't need to judge each other.
Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
So I can't wait that.
Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
You know that, I think is like the planet's work
in progress. But don't but please know that you being
courageous enough to be yourself reminds other people they can too,
and to your point, we're all in transition all the time,
whatever whatever manifestation that takes on, we really are. Yeah,
(01:05:00):
so let's do it together.
Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
What's your work in progress right now?
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Oh my goodness, I mean really patience. I've had to
exercise a lot of it over the last year. It's funny.
I was the most celebrated in twenty twenty two when
I painted a really good picture for everyone, but internally
I was the most depressed I'd ever been. I felt
so sad. Teach people loved me, and then I I
(01:05:26):
got free and I chose my joy and I've never
been more brutalized or lied about. And yet I would
do it all over again to feel as free and
in my own body as I feel now, And that
that's a big deal, because I don't think I could
(01:05:47):
have done it ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
And the people that celebrate that joy that are here
and you know, my people, however, many of us there
are that were here, and we're here for it, and
we see that within you and in a way like
I didn't get to know you during that time, and
I only now get to see how cool that we
are meeting when we're both like figuring that out about ourselves,
(01:06:12):
but also we are like accepting those parts of ourselves,
which I think is really really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah, it's like early in your transition and when I
was like, I'm doing so much work to be happy.
I'm going to get there someday. You know, we met
and instantly liked each other. But isn't it cool that
our like deep friendship was launched and is evolving out
of like this most honest place where we're holding out
(01:06:39):
the good, all the bad, all the hard, all the exciting.
Like I don't think that's an accident.
Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
No, I just I love you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
I love you. I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
It makes like I don't know why, but people like
you or sometimes I'll call jewels and like I want
to start crying, and not because I'm sad, but I'm
just like I feel like I don't know. I just
I love you and I want to thank you for
having me on today.
Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
And I love you. People you know enjoyed this and
I did, so there's something.
Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
And I get excited too. I'm like, oh my god,
imagine what what version of this interview will do a
year from now. It's going to be great.
Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
I can't wait,
Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to an episode. I'm so excited about Whipsmarti's one
(00:21):
of my favorite people is here today. I have had
the pleasure of getting to know this guest over the
last couple of years, and really in the last year
we've become real, tried and true friends. Today my guest
is Dylan mulvaney. She is an American social media personality
who has detailed her gender transition in daily videos published
(00:43):
on TikTok since early twenty twenty two. She was able
to advocate for her community interviewing the President of the
United States, Joe Biden in twenty twenty two, during which
they spoke about trans rites and I'm sure you all
saw that. In twenty twenty three, a very sweet partnership
because Dylan, like me, is a beer girly with bud
(01:06):
light led to really terrifying violence, calls for a boycott.
A lot of very right wing conservative folks went ham
on this young woman in a way that was really
hard to watch. And yet Dylan has managed to maintain
her composure to be vulnerable about what this experience is
(01:28):
simply trying to let a little more light and a
little more love into journeys like hers, and really, as
she likes to say, the transition that we're all in
throughout our lives, whether it's figuring out who we are,
who we love, what we're passionate about, what we want
to do with our careers. In her mind, we all
have so much more in common than not. And I'm
(01:50):
so amazed by the way she's maintained this beautiful composure
in a world that has meant She's amassed more than
ten million followers on TikTok, had over billion views on
her videos, and she deals with both the courage that
she's exhibiting in the world and how that motivates others,
but also how being courageous in public can really put
(02:11):
a target on your back. She is just so inspiring
to me and also one of the kindest, funniest, goofiest,
sweetest people that I know, and I'm so excited for
all of you to get to know her today with me,
let's get to it. I feel really excited in particular
(02:41):
to ask you this question, probably of all people, because
you know, everyone I sit down across from is doing
something inspiring, is like living their most creative life is
reminding all of us to be courageous. And I always think, like,
you know, whether you're a senator or a public figure,
you know who you are as the adult that you are.
(03:02):
But I'm always really curious if there's through lines that
people can see from today's vantage point when they look
back at their childhood when they're like, you know, eight
or nine years old, when things are really kind of formative.
And I think there's a whole other interesting layer to
that first question for you because of the path your
(03:26):
life has taking you on. Do you, as you sit
in your days of girlhood to early shout out the single,
do you feel like you always saw Dylan in yourself
even when you were a little kid.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh, I think that was when I was the most
Dylan and the most feminine and the most fun and free.
And I actually I stripped so many parts of myself
away and it became sort of a shadow version.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Of myself for a really long time. But I keep.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Refinding those parts, and then they get taken away again
or I push them to the side, and then I
rEFInd them.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I find the courage to tap back into that person.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
But I think like, if I really look back at
the through line, it's I am a musical theater girl
nerd who just wants to make people laugh and make
people smile and see the good and that's like always
who I have been like since. I like it is
(04:37):
funny now having experienced so many other parts of life
than I would have ever expected that I would would
get to, including my transition, but also career and relationships
and all these things that I never thought that I
would find myself in. And at the end of the day,
my favorite thing is still like going to playbill dot
(04:59):
com and like looking to see what's going on on
Broadway right now, or listening to Wicket in my car
and belting it out with my best friend. But that
is so me at my core. And the more that
I can come back to that little kid that just
wanted to make people laugh and wanted to sing show tunes,
(05:21):
like that's the happiest, and that is when I am
the happiest. So I think that's that's kind of where
I'm at.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I love that. So if you think of yourself as
a little kid and what you wanted to be when
you grew up, are you are you doing everything and
more that you wanted when you wanted, when you thought
about your future, I.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Think I'm doing a little too much in a way,
like I'm a little extra.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I'm definitely a little extra.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think what would make my my younger self so
happy is to be back up on stage as much
as possible and whatever capacity that is. And that's kind
of the next goal is to get back got there.
But it's also you know, when people put you in
a box so they see you as this one thing,
it can be really hard to then convince people of
(06:10):
the other skills that you have or the other sides
to your life. And I'm sure that you've been in
that place too, with like specific roles that once you played,
people are like, oh, that is who you are, that's
what you're capable of. Have you found that being the
case for your life, like after you do some of
these iconic projects.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Oh, my gosh, completely, Because what I've learned is that
like our sort of surface memory is long, but our
bigger sort of lifelong memories seem to be very short.
And I think that's because you know, everyone's doing their
own thing, they're not thinking about other people oh so much.
(06:51):
But it was a really wild thing to like, for example,
when I first started on One Tree Hill, like to
be brought in as the comic relief on the show
and to be a source of comedy. And then you know,
I did a couple of years of like playing this
very and I loved her too, but this very tough
like former addict cop, and people were like, she's so
(07:14):
good at like being serious and doing action, but can
she do comedy? And I was like, I did that
for nine years, like what And I would watch people
go like, oh my god, we forgot or vice versa.
Like somebody would be like, well she you know, she
played this fashion designer who was so funny for so long,
like can she be tough? And I was like, I
do all my own stunts, you guys. People just forget
(07:35):
and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Well for example, right, like, I think the way that
I've been able to like build an audience has been
on social media, and it's been really interesting to sort
of try to steer people from just seeing me as
a trans woman that talks about her journey to then
sharing the other parts.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Of my life.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And something that's been very interesting to watch is as
I'm putting out like singing videos, for example, like people like,
still I've been putting out singing videos for years. Yeah,
and and someone like I posted one yesterday and they're like.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I had no idea you could sing and you.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Go, I'm like, we're wait what, Like We're like obviously
that wasn't on their side of the for you page
or or but that teaches me like, oh, I have
to keep showing them because there's still people that are learning.
And I think also we sometimes put an expectation of like, Okay,
we do this one thing, and that means that people
(08:34):
will get it, and they just don't all that like
there and even you know, my song came out last
week or two weeks ago, and I kind of assumed
people would understand the nuance of the song or would
understand like the intentions behind a song. And then you know,
after a few days of discourse, I was like, oh,
I think I need to tell I need to talk
(08:54):
to people about what.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
This is like.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
And especially I think because my perspective is differ and
as a trans person, not everyone is going to automatically
understand where I'm coming from or the kinds of things
that I feel called to sharing, and so as like,
there are moments where you have to let people in.
And you do have to let them whether it's a
(09:17):
joke or something really vulnerable or something as long as you.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Feel ready to share that thing.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And I think that's also a tricky part of what
we're both navigating, is like when do you let people
in and when do you keep things for yourself?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Girl, this is my journey.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I always assume people would know me as like a character,
whether it's in a television show or on stage, and
then people knew me in my personhood from the Internet,
and I was conditioned to believe that I was only
as good as my last video, and that if I
didn't put something out every single day, that I was
(09:53):
no longer interesting or like worthy of the success. And
you get to a place where, once you've talked about,
you know, a certain number of things, you're like, oh my,
I guess I have to talk about this now, or
you know, I don't think I'm fully ready.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But let's let's talk about this. And it gets tricky because.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
None of your audience is ever going to say, oh, Dylan,
don't share that.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
We don't want to hear that right now.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Like everybody, they want whatever they can get, and especially
the people that you know, love you or fascinated by you,
or like you feel like it's a parasocial relationship. And
so scaling that back has been so scary because I
sort of set this precedent that I'm going to share
my entire life with you and then to be like, oh,
(10:43):
just kidding, not everything that can be frustrating to, you know,
the people that have seen your journey. But I also
think that as long as I'm keeping them updated with
the why and the hey, I need to take care
of whether it's my mental health or my relationships or
so much of.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
My personal life kind of fell to.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Like the shit show of of like the behind the scenes,
and then I was keeping this really strong front on
for for the media and for my following, and now
I have, like I have, I'm playing cleanup on the
rest of my life.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And I will say, like.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Meeting your group of friends, the you know, Jedediah, brit Julianne,
like those people, you all have really taught me how
to like enjoy life and savor things just for me
and not for Like I think I was confusing going
to an event as like a social engagement, where like
(11:49):
it was actually kind of work, like like we were
there for a specific reason or were there. A lot
of the times I get invited somewhere to like make content,
and and that's tricky too, because I'm like, oh, oh,
I'm here because they want me to do this thing,
and and when I'm with you all, it's often in
a backyard around a fire pit, or you know, hopefully
(12:09):
planning a camping trip, or you know, going and doing
things with people that like are only interested in just
getting to know you better as a person, and you
leave feeling more filled than emptied. And that's been I
think my greatest sort of joy this past year has
been like building friendships back up and like savoring the
(12:33):
little personal relationships in my life and.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Meeting new people.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And I don't know that like that group of friends
did you how did you find them? And they what
are they to you?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I mean definitely, I think having really healthy relationships is
the foundation of a healthy life. And for me, it's
like crazy to think that it's almost twenty years ago now,
before conferences were are cool and like you know, branded
and everybody wanted to go to them. I was at
a conference meeting other people who wanted to make the
(13:08):
world a better place, and that's where Jed and I
became friends. We had been best friends ever since, and
you know, I was part of the gang that convinced
him and Kenny to move to LA from San Diego.
And you know I met Britt through them because she
had volunteered for their nonprofit right out of high school.
And like we really we built a community based on service,
(13:32):
which was always a really big deal. And I think,
you know, we were friends before social media. We've we've
worked kind of through it. And when you talk about
you know, what you give versus what you hold for yourself,
Like I feel that in my bones because I think
there's something really important to remember about the fact that
(13:53):
most of us lived a life before there was the
opportunity to have part of your life online. And I
think when you are an advocate, when you want to
show up to encourage other people to do the same,
to make other people feel safe to be who they are,
that is wonderful. And you have to remember that it's
(14:16):
also not your reality. It's a piece of it. Like
you said, people who follow you and think they see
your content every day will miss entire things. Now it's
a big deal if ten percent of your audience engages
with something you post, So you have to think about
how many people just don't see things yet, how many
(14:36):
people are chronically online and perhaps don't even realize that
in their subconscious they assume that if they don't see it,
it isn't happening, or vice versa, when you have a
whole life happening. And I think there's also this weird
thing where people want the optics to continue, They want
the numbers to continue, they want they want that parasocial
(15:02):
fame to continue. You know, now I'm beginning to really
see through like people trying to win optics wars, for example,
Like when people are going through big life changes or whatever,
I'm like, Oh, somebody who's out there trying to win
the optics war is doing so because they're worried about
what else is going to come out. Interesting, like, I've
started to value people who stay quiet and who go slow,
(15:24):
and who have their experiences before they talk about them
so they can talk about them in healthy and honest ways.
And I don't think I could have seen that five
years ago, but I see it now really clearly, and
so I actually think it's a sign of emotional health
and of really good self care when you have the
(15:46):
capability to say, I'm not really ready to share about this.
I'm going to take my time and make sure when
I do that it's not reactive, that it's authentic and honest,
that it's kind to everyone, and as much as it
can be, Like, I find that to be really really valuable.
(16:06):
And so even in our friendship, like we became friendly
with each other online, but then in the interactions we
began having offline, I was like, Oh, that's a whole
person that I really want to know, support and be
around for. And I really value that, and I value
that in all my relationships like you're talking.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
About, I felt the same way, like when getting to
meet you and actually getting to like talk about the
very real things, like I think because we both share
parts of our lives, and then getting to share other
parts of our lives just the two of us was
so epic.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But what I see on are you on? Do you
scroll a lot on TikTok? Not?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Really, I'm not that great at it. My friends are
constantly trying to like get me to do it, so
like I'll get like sections of videos from friends and
then like depending on what people are sending me, it'll
like show me more of that in the algorithm. But
I probably I spend like a night on TikTok, like
(17:06):
I don't know, every three weeks. I also my friends
make fun of me. They're like, you're such a boomer
because every video everyone's ever sent to me, like I
save so I can like have it as a resource.
And they're like, TikTok is not pinterest, like what are
you doing? And I'm like, I don't know how any
of this works.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I that is that you saying that you only scroll
like every three weeks is the healthiest thing I've.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Ever heard in my entire life.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I can't do it anymore because I really will get
lost in it. And like I'm such an adult and
I get lost in it. I can't imagine what it's
like for teens who've never not had it. It scares me.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, it's I think it's designed to be addictive.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I also think what's funny is like I'm it's my job,
like it's my primary income, and I'm like the first
person and be like, oh, you don't need to be
on there every night, like because I am. I really
like I have a deep addiction to it. I'm also
wildly grateful to it because I think it's one It's
very different than like even Instagram, where you know, Instagram,
(18:06):
it takes kind of a long time to build up
an audience and for people to find you, and but
TikTok Is is like it was instantaneous, like a straight shot.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
To the moon.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It felt it was fast for you.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh my gosh, I think I had like a million
followers in seventeen days.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Oh my god, babe, the pressure. And now a word
from our wonderful sponsors before we go into more of
this internet identity. I actually this is reminding me or
(18:42):
just pinging my brain that I haven't asked this question,
which I think in some ways must overlap for you
because you are young, you are on social media. You
have had this really fast rise which has come with yes,
a big audience and supports some but also like wild
ass backlash. How you've had to discover your social media
(19:06):
identity certainly, But has that helped you in the discovery
process of your gender identity too, or did that feel
like it was always happening for you as a kid,
you always knew that you always knew who you were
and that your body wasn't aligning, like how did the
(19:26):
first discovery happen? And how does the internet play into it.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I came out at four years old to my mom
as a girl, and that was it was the year
two thousand or two thousand and one. And there's no
judgment in my heart for not getting to like fulfill
that prophecy, because you know, it was a very different time.
(19:50):
The resources, especially for trans youth were so different, and
my family just trying their best and.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Well and your family's pretty conservative, right, yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I think what is I've always come from the place
of like I never want to live in like the
what ifs, and and even you know, throughout high school,
I remember puberty was a very sensitive time because I
didn't like what was happening to my body and I
was started lashing out and it was fascinating too. I
actually like I was wearing women's clothes and you know,
(20:22):
how to purse at school, and like throughout high school,
and I really like always walked to the beat of
my own drum. And but I overall, like I loved theater.
It was my favorite thing. And I knew to be
successful in commercial theater that like I couldn't be that woman.
I couldn't be that feminine of a human. So I
(20:44):
kind of like sort of stripped those parts away and
got into the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music and became this
really clean cut J crew type and it worked, like
I got Book of Mormon the musical right after college,
and I but like those that gender dysphoria was always there.
(21:06):
And that's where like the Internet did not really like
the there are parts of me sharing my transition journey
online that I guess were helpful, And a lot of
that comes back to like the support from people, like
the kind messages, the you know, the messages from parents
(21:27):
that say, hey, you know my kid's been going through this.
You're the kind of the link between the two of us,
and we love watching your videos together.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Like that makes it worth it.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
The extreme amounts of like hate and transphobia and misgendering
like that definitely doesn't help. And I have to constantly
be like, okay, is this work? Like is you putting
yourself out there right now? Like is this it to
a detriment of of your transition? Luckily, I mean I
was on hormones for months before I made my first
(21:59):
days girlhood video. So that was, you know, something I
had like come out to my family and friends and
everything like that beforehand.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I also.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Like I went by bay them pronouns for the year
before I even came out as a woman, and so
there was like quite the lead up. But I never
expected to like take it online. I was doing stand
up comedy in LA and my first video is supposed
to be sort of this like comedy take on on,
like a coming out video, and then it turned into
(22:33):
something so much more.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
But that was it was always such a huge part
of me.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
And in what's scary I think is like how the
media is villainizing trans people right now. It's it's quite
scary because I think back to that, you know, the
eight or nine year old we were talking to at
the beginning of this this SPoD and I was the
(23:01):
least confrontational, least like rock the boat kind of person,
kid human girl, and so all of these moments of
like seeing myself being perceived as like a villain is
so insane to me because I'm like, we're are they
(23:24):
not seeing the Broadway nerdy theater kid that most of
my friends get to see and like the it And
that's where I have to look around my life and
I see specifically that the women that are in my
life and support me, and I go, oh, these are
the people that I want to have on side or
on my side, not conservative media outlets or political figures
(23:49):
or you know, like I've got the support around the
fire pit, and I've got the support from my best
friend Lily, who has known me for seventeen years. I've
got the support of my and my sister. I've got
the support of you just really awesome human beings. And
if that can be a testament enough to this being
(24:11):
who I am and who I've always been, then that's
enough for me.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
But back to sort of like the TikTok of it all.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
What worries me that I see happening a lot is
because you were talking about, you know, people kind of
like stirring up just to stir up online, I see
a lot of like the clickbait stuff is getting really bad.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
That's really bad.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
And I even see certain creators like because it performs well,
like some really transphobic content that starts getting pushed by
algorithms on these apps, and so other people are like, oh,
that's a way to get views or that's a person
to talk about. And even I've seen like queer creators
(25:00):
is talking about other queer creators in certain ways that
it just like it feels really unproductive to like pushing
us forward as as a community. And I don't know,
I just get nervous about like, I never want to
post anything that's gonna, you know, set anyone back. I
(25:23):
never want to put anything out there that is, you know,
hurtful to anyone else.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
It's just it's a slippery slope. But I will say.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
That I'm finding I'm finding those moments for myself to
keep close good.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I'm glad, you know. I think it is really important
for us, especially at a time where we treat social
media like currency, but we also forget how dangerous it
can be. And I think you have to be really
really clear, you know, we all need to self interrogate
(26:02):
and say how do I want to participate in this
space and what is this for? And I think to
your point, when we're talking about this rise in really
dangerous rhetoric that hurts already at risk populations, like one
of the things that feels really important for me to
constantly point out to people because I think it's really
(26:26):
I think it's really crucial that we make sure that
the people who are the most affected by something are
not the people who have to scream about it from
the rooftops. Like, it's the reason that as women we
need men to be talking about rape culture because hello,
like they're the perpetrators of this violence by and large,
(26:48):
And I think is an incredibly important reason why. You know,
for us, as white women, we need to talk about
the risks that society has baked into women of color.
And I think it's incredibly important for cisgendered women to
be really clear about how dangerous the world is for
trans women. And it is the reason last March I
(27:10):
was in New York for a big ceremony for the
National Institute of Reproductive Health. Obviously, like our reproductive freedom
is on the line. The Republicans are trying to ban
reproductive care and abortion, and they're also trying to ban IVF.
So like, hello, anyone who wanted to say a year
ago that this was not just simply to control women,
I'm like, well, the writing's on the wall now. We've
(27:32):
been telling you welcome to this terrible party we're all
at that we don't want to be at, and at
this event. The thing I wanted to point out to
use my time. You know, they gave me an award.
It was very nice. It's glass, it's beautiful. I was like, look,
I don't I don't think there's any conversation we need
to be having other than if we are not centering
(27:52):
trans women and our reproductive advocacy, we're failing. Because we
saw in twenty twenty three and it's continued now more
historically conservative women showing up to vote in support of abortion,
in support of reproductive rights access because by the way
abortion birth control IVF, it's all tied. And in the
(28:15):
states where abortion is the most easily accessible, women have
the least number of abortions. Like, whether you like it
or not, these are just the facts. If you don't
want to have one, don't have one. We're moving on.
And I said to this room, I was like, make
no mistake. The fact that conservative women in droves are
showing up to vote on abortion in support means that
(28:36):
these conservative folks who only get voted for when they
can create outrage, have to figure out a new way
to attack bodily autonomy. And it is why you see
the most legislation against the LGBTQ plus community in history,
over six hundred bills at this point. And it is
why they are going after trans kids, trans athletes, trans people.
(28:56):
It's why you're seeing a surge in you know, the
assault in murder of our trans communities in this country,
Like they are doing this to our most vulnerable population
so that they can continue to make attacks on bodily
autonomy seem acceptable, they can make bodily autonomy seem dangerous.
Like to be clear, my sweet angel, you, being this
(29:19):
beautiful girl that you have always been does nothing to
my womanhood but make me feel more excited to wear
pink and like I'm your friends who's always wearing black,
And when I'm with you, I'm like, oh my god,
I need a pink cashmir swater. Like that's it. And
we must be clear, like our communities have to be
really clear about what's going on, how insidious it is,
(29:41):
and how we have to show up for each other.
And I know I've said this to you in private,
but I will say it on my podcast. Anybody who
focks with you, fockx with me, Like let's go, we're
in it together.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I'm in it with you, And you know, speaking back
to like the overturning of Roe v Wade. I remember
it was actually like earlier on in my series of
Days of Girlhood, within my first year of transition, and
I was learning so much about not like it was
kind of catching up to, you know, because I like,
(30:13):
I wasn't as clued in as shinny women on.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Well you mean you don't know everything about everything at
every moment of your whole life?
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Wow, No, not yet.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And I but I made a video that day because
I really thought about how what we are asking for
is not very different, and it is its permission over
our own bodies. And funny enough, the way that people
are attacking gender firm and care, A lot of the
times people attacking it are the people that are actually
(30:44):
getting the same surgeries but just calling it something different.
Or I think that there's there's such a deep connection
between a transnsists woman if they'll let it happen and let.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
It be there.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Because the more that we focus on our differences, they
become very obvious and very factual. But the more that
we focus on what we have in common, that's when
like true connection and like productivity can happen.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Because I want to honor every single version of womanhood.
I want to.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Find whatever it is in a feminine person, whether that's
a transperson or this person's idea of what a woman
is to them, and then I want to be able
to honor that within myself and not feel apologetic about
what that means to me. And even with the song
coming out, people like assumed that my version of girlhood
(31:47):
or womanhood is this very frivolous thing, or it's this
very sort of juvenile thing, and it's so not. There's
so much pain, there's so much resentment and anger and
jealousy and all these things that are within me that
are my womanhood. And yet I wanted to make a
really fun, frivolous song of like two percent of what
(32:11):
my experience has been. And yet people then, like we
talked about at the beginning, they put you in a
box and so they say this is who you are,
this is who you think we are, and it's not.
And I think the more that we can have conversations
like this one, the closer we get to the tricky
(32:33):
part is is than having those conversations with people who
maybe don't feel the same way or aren't on the
same page yet and I've had a lot of those
in my personal life, Like you know, even with the
women in my.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Family who I am.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
A lot of people's first trans person that they think
they've met, at least they probably met others, but they
didn't know.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
And I've watched.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Things get better and and things heal, and people start
to understand when they want to, And those who had
a personal connection with me before my transition, most if
not all, have found some sort of peace with me
stepping into my because it's it's not to be.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
What's it called.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
It's not an opinion of someone to say that, like
I am one hundred percent doing better than I was
like before I stepped into my true self, and anyone
that knew me before can tell you that. And so
I'm really interested on those like the granular relationship level
of like outside of social media, outside of making videos
(33:47):
for millions of people, when I meet someone that maybe
doesn't understand someone like me, that I can leave them
maybe even just a sliver of less resentful than they
were going in to the relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yes, I love that. And now a word from our
sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too,
you know, I can't imagine that it's easy to share
your life and the lessons you're learning with people you
know you have a very different journey. But I think
(34:23):
about a guest from season one on Work in Progress,
my friend May Martin, who you know made an incredible
show on Netflix. Feel good for everyone listening about their
whole journey. You know, back when May came on the podcast,
they were still using both she and they pronouns. They
hadn't had TOP surgery yet, and I've used their story
(34:46):
from their stand up special a bunch in some of
the advocacy work that I do offline with folks, and
they said something that I thought was so profound about,
you know, having had tops and having been on tea
for a year, and said, look, it's not that it
shifted my life in some way and everything is different
(35:08):
and everything, you know I'm paraphrasing, but not like everything
is perfect and amazing and I've never been sad. I'm
just not in agony every second of every day. I
have a little space to breathe in my own body.
And listening to them talk about it, like I've brought
that up to people who don't quite get it yet
and said why would you deny anybody the right to
live with less agony, to be able to breathe more
(35:31):
comfortably in their body. Their body has nothing to do
with you. And so I think for everyone who's on
any version of a journey to figure out who they are,
we should be supportive. We should be excited because people's joy,
whether it's finding love or learning to love themselves, or
(35:54):
queerness or transness or any any version of it, is
about coming home to them. Yeah, and that I think
is profound, and I will say, if I may, I
think it's also why a lot of people who don't
have friends in the way that I'm lucky enough to
have you and other folks like may in my life
(36:15):
maybe are afraid because you're choosing joy in the face
of so much danger and judgment in the world. Like
it is such an act of freedom, and I think
a lot of people don't feel free, and so they
are very intimidated by people who will pursue their own
(36:39):
freedom no matter what, people who will not turn their
backs on themselves anymore. I think it can be very confronting,
and it's easier to be confronted and react with anger
than to be confronted and admit.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
You are afraid, right, And a lot of people go
to confront my success and my wins and my really
come up and they'll challenge it as like, oh, she
transitioned to get famous or she is fit because oh
my gosh, yes, one hundred.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
People say that to you. Yes, you're like cool, Yeah,
I just put myself at like immense risk of violence
and decided to do one of the hardest things in
the world for TikTok.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
No. They were like, this washed up gay man, and
I'm like, honey.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I was doing a Broadway musical, Like I wasn't exactly
in the worst place in the world, no, I But
what I find so fascinating about that thought process is
like I believe that I stepped in and told the
world this is who I am, and that's when the
world decided, Okay, now we're ready to introduce everyone to
(37:47):
her because.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
She is who she's supposed to be now.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
And that is the tricky thing about simultaneously finding this
success but also being in the beginnings of a transition.
I'm only now two years in and I meet you know,
trans women who are fifteen, twenty thirty years into their
journeys and They're like, girl, just you just you wait.
And I already feel so differently about things that I've
(38:14):
said a year ago or my first you know, I've
watched like videos of myself.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
And just like cringe. You'd be like, oh my god,
what was I knowing?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Okay, wait what does that mean? Though? Like what does
that feel like when you when you say I look
back and go, oh, like what do you what do
you see? What's different?
Speaker 3 (38:29):
It reminds me of that movie eighth Grade.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
That's like the sort of the awkward you know, like
in a way, I'm going through a second puberty because.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
My body's changing.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm trying to wrap my head around these really complex
subjects and stepping into conversations that I've never been in
before even had heard of before, and now I'm being
platformed to speak on them. And I I think I'm
like watching sort of like my awkward self evolve and
(39:03):
grow and actually taking account of what I can speak on,
what I'm ready to. And then it's also like, you know,
sometimes we look back at ourselves and like with a haircut.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
And we're like, what were what was I thinking? And
it's similar in the way I.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Got famous in the early aughts. My every bad haircut
I've ever had is memorialized on television. It's my nightmares.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And but then isn't there something great about like being like,
well I did that, Like that was me and owning
it and being like I really lead to people had
the media literacy and the nuance to understand that we
can change and we we.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
We evolve from those people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And and while that might have been the reason that
they liked me in the first place, that me growing
up and me stepping into adulthood in a more deeply
complex way is actually what they should want from me,
and not to be like forever infanto. Yeah, And I
(40:02):
think with trans women, we often are deeply infantilized or
deeply sexualized because people don't really know where else to
put us. And I leaned into infantilization because I was
so scared of being sexualized that I thought it was
easier to kind of like put that part of my
life away, you know, to be palatable, to be liked,
(40:26):
to be non threatening. And now that's something that I'm
finding again, like finding that balance of like, Okay, I
feel sexy, how how do I share that with the world?
Or I feel you know, ready to tackle this part
of my life. And I think that's where being more
(40:48):
than just one thing is important. And Rene Rapp is
a dear friend of mine and one of her first
songs was Everything to Everyone.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
It's like, I can't be everything to everyone.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
And sometimes I do think I try to be everything
to everyone, and I feel miserably because it's not possible.
But yeah, I think I don't know. I don't know,
but I feel like kind of happy right now.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
How do you feel? Are you happy?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I am so happy? But it's interesting. It's also been
really hard, and I think what I've had to deal
with this year, in particular finally deciding to stop trying
to push the rock up the mountain, you know, to
stop being on that sissyphy and journey of if I
(41:40):
just work harder and if I just push farther and
if I just do more of this and if I
just then I'll be happy. It's like maybe instead of
life feeling like a torture marathon, it could feel like water.
Maybe everything could be in flow, Maybe everything can move easily.
And I don't think I even knew until I knew
(42:02):
that I had just been bred for the hard part,
you know, I was. I did it my whole life
as a kid in my house. I did it my
whole career, thinking like, you're so fortunate to have this job,
and yes, you know, you guys all work for this
man who's a sexual predator and he's the worst, but
he's not here all the time, so just be happy
when he's not here with your friends. And then when
(42:24):
he's here, keep smiling because you don't want anybody to know,
because if the if you girls talk about this and
the show gets canceled, this whole crew of two hundred
people who support their families will lose their jobs and
it'll be your fault because you're ungrateful, like you know it.
I didn't even know what that taught me. How I
learned to disassociate, how I learned to always perform gratefully
(42:47):
and ignore literal trauma. And it took me being diagnosed
with PTSD to understand the journey I had been on
in a couple of really toxic work environments and then
how to learn in my own mental health care journey
to proudly claim my art and all of the great
(43:09):
sets I've worked on and the scenes I've loved to do,
and the wonderful people and to say this was unhealthy
and I need to learn to separate the two. Like,
that's really been a journey. And so here I am
at the end of this year where I finally learned
that twenty years of working that way taught me to
do it in my actual life as well. And that's
(43:30):
so like, what a bummer. That's been really hard.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Yes, are you disassociating less lately?
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Absolutely? Absolutely? And so it's been really interesting when I
finally decided to stop pushing the rock up the hill
last summer and be really honest about how I felt
in my life and how hard I tried to put
the whole list together and I made everything perfect on paper,
(43:59):
and and I just decided to let it go. I
find myself now, almost a year out from that, having
never been happier, but also having never been more anxious.
It's like to be so holy. Yourself is so vulnerable,
it's so sensitive. There are days when I wake up
and I feel like I've just been beaten head to
toe by a baseball bat. The Internet is hard and scary.
(44:23):
I've also left it for months at a time, and
I'm starting to learn things that I didn't even know.
Like the closest people to me are like, you know,
you're really this serious political person on the internet, but
in life you're like goofy and emotional and you probably
cry once a day, either because you're overwhelmed or like
you see something beautiful and it like moves you to tears.
(44:45):
You're funny, You're never silly online, and I'm like, I'm not.
I don't even realize, but I feel you, like in
my bones, like my chest feels like it's swelling right now,
because there is so much more to us than we
could ever possibly be on one of these like on
a frickin two dimensional phone screen, and we deserve to
(45:06):
be that.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, I disassociate the most when I'm trying to maintain
an idea of.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Myself for us, when you're trying to perform yes.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And I also know when when I take too much on,
like work wise, and it gets really overwhelming, that I
go into that same sort of disassociative headspace and be like, Okay,
what would Dylan say right now?
Speaker 3 (45:29):
What would Dylan do?
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I have?
Speaker 2 (45:30):
And I think it's it's been so nice to now
see the getting out from the other side of that
and be like, Okay, that wasn't healthy. And just because
you were providing opportunities for others or you were doing
really well financially or whatever, it was like that you
were convincing yourself that that disassociate dissociation was worth it
(45:51):
actually isn't. And I'm getting better at saying no. But
funny enough, I was with Kenny last night and he
told me about your you had a year of Yes,
and they of like, hell, yes or something like that.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh my gosh, twenty twelve. My best friend Jenny and
I just we both were like, why are we letting
fear and fear of failure and fear of getting it
wrong rule our lives? Like everybody feels when they're learning
new skills. Everybody tries things that don't work sometimes and
(46:30):
that's okay, Like why do we feel like unless we're
going to be perfect at something, we can't even attempt it.
That makes your life so small? So you know, we
were moommates for ten years and we decided to make
twenty twelve our year of Yes, and we just said
yes to everything. Every trip, every adventure, every opportunity, every lecture,
(46:50):
every conference, every random night to go see a concert,
and like one of them resulted in going to this
place that doesn't exist in La anymore. I'm so sad
I miss it. But it was this cool, little like
viby sort of jazzy club. And we went with friends
one night that we didn't know very well, and we
wound up at a secret prints concert and Prince sang
(47:10):
for three hours to like one hundred people in a room,
and we were like, this is why the Year of
Yes is iconic. You know, we would have never had
this experience, and I don't know, it's like it was.
It was things like that that were once in a
lifetime opportunities and then moments where we just decided to
say yes to something that felt scary and it was incredible.
(47:32):
And the cool thing about challenging myself to say yes
to so many things is I also learned eventually how
to say no. I learned what felt so good to me,
and I learned what felt like pressure. And yet here
I am, and you know, twenty twenty four, realizing that
last year I had to learn, I had to learn
(47:55):
how much I was still saying yes to things that
I knew somewhere deep down my bones were not good
for me, but I was really, really trying to get
it right. And again, I know that that's been seismic
and difficult, and it has taken such courage to make
(48:16):
changes in my life. And I know that I have
it so much easier than so many other people. And
so when we talk about this like learning to say yes,
learning to be your whole self, no matter how scary
it is, again I come back, my friend. I think
about you, and I'm just like, part of why you
(48:37):
are so inspiring, and I think part of why folks
who come from a more conservative bent, who are afraid
of your freedom, I think part of why you're scary
to them is because courage is contagious. When you see
someone be courageous, you go, well, if they could do it,
maybe I could too. And that is priceless and profound.
(48:59):
And I know it's not easy for you, but I like,
I really, I'm just so proud of you because you're
doing it.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
I don't feel that's I think that's the weirdest part
of when people say that to me, I'm like, who
are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Well, of course, because you feel like your whole self,
not just your brave self. You're also scared, and you're
also nervous, and you're also learning, but you are brave,
You really.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Are I And it's so just like a contradictory to
like who I was as a young person, scaredy as cat.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
But I think I'm in.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
My year of maybe, and I love that I'm trying
to be really.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Thoughtful with a yes and with it.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
And what I'm trying to be better about is saying
yes to things that I normally wouldn't and trying those
new things out. Because you know, what I realized too
is I'm twenty seven right now, and I was, you know,
finding myself kind of over working in a crazy capacity
(50:08):
over the last few years, and I thought, oh my god,
what if I like make all my dreams come true?
But then I didn't have any fun in the you know,
or like convincing yourself that they're like you were having
fun even though you were disassociating. And now like getting
to fill my life out with the other parts and
like I even have this vision board behind me and
(50:31):
like a bunch of the things have already happened, but
one of them is sloth. I want to go camping,
and I specifically want to go with Jed and I
want to go with you, yes, and and like that's
something that I think two years ago I probably would
have never even put up there, because that felt selfish
to me to want to go do something.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
That, oh, we're going, we're going done. I'm literally going
to get my calendar out when we're done with this interview.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
We're going to make a plan, we're going to go.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
I also think that now the streamline of all these
things were the things that I can make happen for
myself versus waiting for other people to make them happen
for me. And I think it's I'm really letting go
of expectations of others. Funny enough, like Lady Gaga is
(51:17):
on the board and I got to meet her a
two weeks ago at her house for dinner and and
she released sort of like a statement in to support me.
And that was one of those moments where I've never
put an expectation on anyone in my life to like
(51:39):
show up in that capacity for me, and yet she did.
And that's when like, because there were no expectations there,
Like I was just blown out of the water in
disbelief because I was like wow, and I think that
just goes to show like, like the manifestation is real,
and also that like letting people support you in the
(52:03):
ways that they can best and to not by your
standards but to theirs is epic. And I think I
just feel so lucky right now. I feel so wildly
grateful to like have made it through some of these
really dark moments and been stronger because of it.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yeah, and now for our sponsors, you know what, I
think some of those really big moments, like a manifestation
of meeting one of your heroes, I think sometimes that's
also a little bit of the magic of the universe,
because when you're on the receiving end of, you know,
(52:50):
an audience of ten million on TikTok, that means you're
on the receiving end of a bigger audience of haters too,
And so I think sometimes the universe will say to you,
you're gonna have this outsized moment to remind you that
you're on the right path, whether it's with her or
like you're sit down with the president in twenty twenty two.
Like for me, I think we've been through these generations
(53:13):
of such enormous social change and evolution. There's no way that,
especially with some of our older politicians, they weren't on
like the wrong side of history back in the day,
that they're on the better side now. And like for
me to see you sit down with the president and
have him just one hundred percent behind you and advocating
(53:34):
for trans kids, I'm just like, this is what we want,
Like we want the people that are our parents' age
to get more progressive with age now weren't closed off,
and like, I don't know, it just it made my
heart so happy. And maybe because I've seen that in
my own parents, Like my parents are just like ride
or die on the train of social progress in ways
(53:56):
that like they weren't even when I was in high school.
And it's so cool to see, Like not to say
that Joe Biden is my dad or yours, but he
does give off like great dad energy. What was that
like to sit down with him?
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Was it like was it.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Easy because he felt familial or was it insane because
he's the president? Or was it both?
Speaker 3 (54:13):
I mean I still was like, what the hell am
I doing here? Because that was again very early in
my journey.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
Really I did not consider it myself a political person
or an active you know, I still don't call myself
an activist because I think that's something to really be earned.
And also there are specific facets of transness that I
feel comfortable speaking on, and then others that I know
now that I'm not well versed enough in in that
(54:41):
conversation too, I think as much as I'm so grateful
forgetting to do it, I do think there was about
one hundred thousand trans people that probably weren't more equipped
than I was for that. But I'm so grateful because
what that did was that was kind of the beginning
of when I saw an influx of hate and transphobia
and going to sit down, whether you know you're for
(55:06):
Biden or not, to to get that confirmation that like
the most powerful person in the world is says that
they support you. I think that was like enough for
me to be like, okay, I can I'm doing this,
Like this is still who I am. I have less
shame about it now because of the situation. And like again,
(55:28):
and it disassociated. It was disassociative in a different kind,
like in a good way because I was like basically
like like playing with the dog in the Oval office,
and then like Joe Biden gives me a cookie and
you know, wrapped with like a gold seal on it.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
I was just like, what is going on right now?
Speaker 2 (55:50):
But I do think that like it's it's so My
favorite thing is like sort of like intergenerational conversation specifically
usually with my two old women, because there's so much
that I can learn from them in their womanhood, and
and when we have those moments, I'm like, oh, hell yeah,
it's it's. I always was the kid at the pool
(56:11):
party that like was like with the mom in the
kitchen while all the other kids were like playing by
the pool and and getting to like watch or the
women you know in my life that I met get
to ask me questions, like even you know, I was
out of dinner last week for a very small like
screening of a film, and there was a much older
(56:34):
actress there who an icon and if she sat next
to me and started asking some of my questions, some
questions about my transition, and some of them were not
the most like appropriate dinner conversations we having, especially with
someone new to my life or you know, just to
us meeting. But I could tell that like the fascination
(56:57):
that she had was so pure hearted and also like
I felt safe enough to like go there with her,
so I did, and I know that we both left
feeling really like connected and inspired and knowing that I.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
Had her support. And so I think that, like there's.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
So much beauty that can come from not shying away
from getting connected like that.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
Yeah, and again that you felt comfortable, you were able
to take a moment with someone that you know, if
she'd ask those questions off someone else in your position,
they might have been uncomfortable. And sometimes I think to
meet people's curiosity, giving them the benefit of the doubt
(57:43):
and helping them know better so that they do better,
Like that's also so important, And that's something I worry
that the Internet is kind of canceling out of us,
And I hope that we can begin, as you said,
to really practice nuance so that we can create more
nuance in our world. You know that feels like a
(58:05):
big deal.
Speaker 3 (58:06):
I have a one question for you.
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Do you have any advice for me to like setting
boundaries and now that you've like navigated this for so long,
like specific to.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
Like what you think would be healthy for me to do.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
I mean, yes, I feel like we could do a
whole nother podcast about this, and I want to really
deep dive on it with you, but I will say
I think I think one of the most important things
that I have learned that helps me to set a
boundary is that our emotional reactions are quick and our
emotional learning is long, and so if you are responding
(58:45):
or doing out of a reactive place, it won't wind
up being a good thing. Learning to practice patients and
go slow and wait has been one of the greatest
sort of exercises and also transformative yeah, practices of my life.
(59:06):
And so we will talk so much more about that
than our next bonfire. But I'm excited for you. I mean,
I think even asking the question is so great. I
think boundaries are medicine, and yeah, we have plenty to
dig into there. I can't believe we've been talking for
an hour. I hate it. I want to ask you
(59:26):
seven hundred more questions, but we'll do a part two
at some point. But I need to know, well two
things because I really want to come back around to music. Since,
as you said, Days of Girlhood came out two weeks ago,
you are having like pure unadulterated joy as a singer.
You have the voice of an Angel. Hello, It's why
you come from Broadway and I can't wait for you
to get back there. Are you releasing more music? Where
(59:49):
can people find it? And then I'll ask you my
actual last question.
Speaker 2 (59:52):
Okay, days of girlhoads streaming on like all the spots
like Spotify and Apple Music. I I don't actually know
what the plan is for music right now because it
was such a it was a very bittersweet experience putting
this out there, and I think I really now want
(01:00:13):
to focus on people hearing my like my voice and
my actual singing voice, and not just like the fun
of it. But I want it to be because I'm
not trying to be like a musician by any means.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
I want it to always be something I.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Come back to because I have to and because it
feels like the exact thing that I'm supposed to do
and I'm not having that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Moment right the second.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
So yeah, and now, like like I I just posted
as singing with Chris Colfer like an old Broadway standard duet,
and that felt really yummy, And so I think it's
it's finding the different the different versions of music for me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
I love that and that too, don't forget it takes
courage to say, Ooh, I tried this and I don't
think I liked it, or maybe that's not for me.
Right now, I'm gonna go this way. Yeah, that's that too,
is brave, so don't you forget it. It kind of
feels like in that spirit, you know, being willing to
(01:01:12):
show up and experiment and keep try and keep learning.
All of this period, not only of your life and music,
but of the last couple of years and your transition
and your your pursuit of your most authentic identity all
feels like a work in progress. But if you think
about from today looking forward, like into the spring and summer,
(01:01:35):
into where you want to go, what you next want
off that vision board, what feels like your work in
progress as you look out at the future.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Ooh, I think I need to fall back in love
with being me.
Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
And because I was.
Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
When I came out as a woman, I fell in
love with my identity and with who I was and
the confidence that I was feeling in the new joys,
and then I had that kind of tarnished for a second.
Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
And now I'm like refining that again.
Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
And I think as helpful as the support is from followers,
or strangers that I meet in the street or my family.
Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Like it has to come within myself.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
So I also think, like it's funny because I'm starting
to date and what I've gathered is like I have
to like I'm the hottest when I think that I'm
hot or that like I think that I'm worthy, and
that it can't come from an external.
Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Source or like validation.
Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
So it's all encompassing of like loving the art that
I'm putting out, leaving that song the way that I
just apologized basically for like, oh I don't like music,
I don't, you know, Like why am I doing this?
I need to like love the fact that I did
that for myself and claim it. And I think that's
also is like standing by my decisions and my content
(01:03:04):
in my opinions and my identity and not being apologetic
for it. So I think that's where I am working.
I'm a work in progress, and I think for anyone listening,
I just hope that they can see that the transition
that I'm going through is just a different version of
the transition that they're going through, and it might not
(01:03:26):
have anything to do with gender, but how beautiful it
would be if we were all just fascinated instead of
hateful or darkly and deeply confused by people, and just
found a little bit of wonder.
Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
I love that. I love that because you know what
I really think it is. I think generationally it's been
so dangerous to be a human in the world that
we have been cultured to want the spotlight on us.
So it's like, oh, well, if you're mad at all
those people over there, you won't be mad at me,
(01:04:04):
if you know, in like evolutionary times, it's like, well,
if that village on that side of the mountain is
getting attacked, will be safe over here? We shouldn't be
attacking anyone. We we have generations of economic understanding, we
have generations of mental health understanding, we have we know better,
(01:04:25):
we can actually create systems that work for everyone and
don't make anyone feel like they're threatened. And if we
actually keep everybody safe, we can just all be safe
and we don't need to judge each other.
Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
So I can't wait that.
Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
You know that, I think is like the planet's work
in progress. But don't but please know that you being
courageous enough to be yourself reminds other people they can too,
and to your point, we're all in transition all the time,
whatever whatever manifestation that takes on, we really are. Yeah,
(01:05:00):
so let's do it together.
Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
What's your work in progress right now?
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Oh my goodness, I mean really patience. I've had to
exercise a lot of it over the last year. It's funny.
I was the most celebrated in twenty twenty two when
I painted a really good picture for everyone, but internally
I was the most depressed I'd ever been. I felt
so sad. Teach people loved me, and then I I
(01:05:26):
got free and I chose my joy and I've never
been more brutalized or lied about. And yet I would
do it all over again to feel as free and
in my own body as I feel now, And that
that's a big deal, because I don't think I could
(01:05:47):
have done it ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
And the people that celebrate that joy that are here
and you know, my people, however, many of us there
are that were here, and we're here for it, and
we see that within you and in a way like
I didn't get to know you during that time, and
I only now get to see how cool that we
are meeting when we're both like figuring that out about ourselves,
(01:06:12):
but also we are like accepting those parts of ourselves,
which I think is really really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah, it's like early in your transition and when I
was like, I'm doing so much work to be happy.
I'm going to get there someday. You know, we met
and instantly liked each other. But isn't it cool that
our like deep friendship was launched and is evolving out
of like this most honest place where we're holding out
(01:06:39):
the good, all the bad, all the hard, all the exciting.
Like I don't think that's an accident.
Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
No, I just I love you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
I love you. I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
It makes like I don't know why, but people like
you or sometimes I'll call jewels and like I want
to start crying, and not because I'm sad, but I'm
just like I feel like I don't know. I just
I love you and I want to thank you for
having me on today.
Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
And I love you. People you know enjoyed this and
I did, so there's something.
Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
And I get excited too. I'm like, oh my god,
imagine what what version of this interview will do a
year from now. It's going to be great.
Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
I can't wait,
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.