January 16, 2025 • 62 mins
Actress Lili Reinhart lit up the small screen as Betty Cooper on the CW hit series Riverdale, but her off-screen work is just as bright. In addition to her acting career, she's a producer, author, advocate, and entrepreneur.
The busy multi-hyphenate joins Sophia to chat about launching her own production company, the pros and cons of social media, dealing with anxiety and depression, and how her struggles with acne led to her new skincare brand, Personal Day.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, friends, it is a weird time to be making content,
certainly from here in Los Angeles, California. This wonderful episode
with Lily we actually recorded a few weeks before the fires,
and now it's up and we won't be discussing it
obviously on this episode since it hadn't happened yet. But
(00:22):
I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows there
are so many incredible resources and groups that you can support.
I've actually got a really wonderful mutual aid list in
a highlight on my Instagram stories and we will put
it in the show notes as well. If you have
a heart for the people and places that make La
so wonderful and special, please consider visiting that and supporting
(00:47):
our city. Love you all, I hope you're staying safe.
Welcome to work in progress high WIF Smarties. Today we
are joined by someone I have been a fan of
(01:07):
for such a long time. I am so impressed, and
I so admire the way that she carries herself, the
things she's willing to talk about, the ways she's willing
to sent her really human experiences in a world that
doesn't always want to do that. And she happens to
be brilliant, stunning, an entrepreneur, a producer, an incredible actor,
(01:30):
and an author. Today's guest is none other than Lily
ryan Hart. You likely met Lily portraying Betty Cooper on
the CW drama series Riverdale. Can't wait to talk to
her about our high school experiences on the cedeb. She
has worked on incredible films from Hustlers to Chemical Hearts,
(01:51):
and she recently launched her own production company. On top
of all of this incredible success, Lily released a book
of poet in twenty twenty titled Swimming Lessons, and her
book explores themes like young love, anxiety, depression, fame, heartbreak.
These are the kinds of things she's really heart forward
(02:11):
about discussing with her audience. She really welcomes folks in
to talk about everything from insecurity to body dysmorphia to depression.
And I really think she is doing such an incredible
service to the world with the conversations that she chooses
to have and the tenderness with which she chooses to
(02:32):
have them. And I'm really excited for all of you
to hear today's conversation because that tenderness carries through this
episode as well.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
First of all, it was so much fun to get
to see you last.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Week of this. I just loved that me too.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, I've admired your work and the way that you
use your platform and the things that you choose to
talk about for such a long time, so I'm thrilled
you're here too.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, I was really happy. I days of events,
I kind of am always going why did I say
yes to this?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
All day long?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Because I just I just have the social anxiety, so
I have to push, really push myself to leave my
house and go to those things. But yeah, but I'm
always I'm always usually happy that I do, and then
I'm there, so I always walk away. I'm like, okay,
it was like the fear of going was much worse
than the actual thing.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, the anticipatory anxiety is often worse for me than
the experiential anxiety. But it doesn't mean I don't have it.
I can try to talk myself out of it the
whole time, but yeah, it doesn't leave my body till
I get to the thing and I run into people
that I've been excited to meet or I see friends,
and then I'm like, what was I so freaked? Out.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Wow. Yeah, it's thee I mean, there is like because
it's not just go to a party. It's like you're
hiring people and you're having to look good and like
get the freaking glam photo and make sure you are
in a social mood or whatever. And I don't know,
(04:20):
it's just it's not like going to a regular party.
There's just like it feels like work to me. Yeah,
so it's like, ultimately I'm going to work in a way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Totally, it is absolutely work. And I also giggled because
I'd had to go to something.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Before and.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
The thing I went to earlier to see some friends.
As I was leaving, I got caught in like one
of those moments of just la rain. So by the
time I got back across town to see all of
you guys, i'd gotten wet, I was in velvet. I
had like a cool hairtuk moment happening. Yeah, And then
(04:59):
by the the time I got to our event, I
looked at the photos and I was like cool, I
just looked like I gently electrocuted myself.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It was like this moment where I was like, you
kind of just gotta let it go. Like I don't know, no, one.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
No one would have ever known.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You're very sweet. But it was like this very funny
moment where I was like, am I gonna let the
fact that like I'm a Frisbell now make me go home?
Or am I just going to go see my pals?
And I was very bad that I came.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
To see every You looked so lovely and there was
no one would have ever see, No one ever would know,
I never know, No one knows, right. I had to
have be like safety pinned, like the I did a
beauty con in November and the tailor accidentally took the
buttons off my sleeves, so we had to like safety
pin them, and who gives a shit? That's yeah, you know,
(05:50):
it's like a little bit like, oh this sucks, and
you're rushing out the door while it's happening and like
safety pitting things. But I've had some red carpet moments
like that a few times, and that always is it
doesn't help the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
My best friend in college split her pants at a party.
We were really we were having a great night. It
turned into like a dance off moment. Everything was great,
and then she forgot how inflexible. Said pair of pants
was and split them, and I happened to have safety
pins in my bag because I was coming to this
(06:26):
thing from class, And ever since, I've always made sure
to carry a couple of safety pins in a clutch
when I go out to something, just in case it
happens to someone else. Yeah, Oh, I feel you on
the safety pinage there.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, I've definitely had an entire dress fully break, like
and it's like, what I mean some of these things,
I just I'm like, I got to give this over
to did God here, Like there's really nothing I can
do in this moment at the end of the day.
It's like a red carpet that no one but me
will like ever really remember totally. So yeah, stuff like
(07:03):
that where I'm like, actually, no one but me is
actually fully paying attention to like me in this moment,
If that makes sense. Maybe that's a stupid thing to
say when you have like fans who actually are very
much paying attention. But I guess I'm like, I'm going
to hold on to the things that go wrong and
no one else is going to really notice them exactly.
And if I look back, if I look bad on
a carpet, the only person that that's hurting is ultimately
(07:25):
and so.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
One's really going to care. Yeah, but it doesn't lessen
the experience. But I'm so I love that we get
to talk about these things, honestly, because I feel like
when I started working in TV, nobody wanted to talk
about anxiety. Everyone was like, you're so privileged, how dare
(07:48):
you talk about stress or whatever? And it's like, I
actually think it's quite refreshing to know that everyone is human.
I'm really curious for you. I normally dive in with
this question, but we we started in the present. I
want to know a little bit about your childhood because
I think it's really interesting to sit down with people
(08:08):
who our audiences know generally from a body of work.
And I want to know if if your version of
yourself today got to sit down with your eight or
nine or ten year old self, would you see the
through line from what she was really interested to what
you do now? Did you always want to be a
(08:29):
performer or did this sort of all come out of
the ether?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
No, it was really I think in my bones, and
I always think it was a little bit written in
the stars because I never had really a backup plan
and I never wanted one, and that's a bit hard
to tell your family who's never No one in my
family was in this field, and no one was arts
(08:59):
and to pursue it from Bay Village, Ohio. It was
just sort of a far off dream, seemingly so it
was a big, big dream for kind of a small
town and to have no connections. It was sort of like, Okay, sure,
dream big. And I was never told not to. But
I absolutely came into the world liking to entertain people
(09:24):
and be funny and goofy around my family, and weirdly though,
was shy and had social anxiety, like to the point
where when I was very young didn't want to go
to birthday parties. I didn't want to be I was
nervous to be around I guess the other kids, but
more so I think it was like nervousness to be
(09:45):
away from my mother. It was very attached to her.
But within my family and friends, I was always wanting
to perform and be silly, and I grew up making
videos on a camera for myself that I would show
my family, forcing them to watch. You know, these probably
(10:06):
not very entertaining videos, but discovering windows movie maker when
I was thirteen or something and editing together my own
little movies and adding music to them and making my
sister do it with me, and every time my friends
came over, we would be like, let's make it. It
was like, let's make a video. And I think that
seems to be quite common with a lot of you know, actors.
(10:29):
I find did that as a kid, so that's it
seems to be kind of a common thing. But there
was definitely always that desire to perform and be creative.
And yeah, I mean if I sat down with my
little ten year old self, it would be it would
(10:51):
be like, yeah, I'm still you. I'm still this kind
of shy, and it's interesting. I've grown up and I'm
not I don't love this, but like I've almost turned
into instead of like shy, I fear that sometimes it
can come off as more of like a Larry David
(11:11):
version of myself, where it's a little bit like, uh,
maybe I come off as a little cold because of
how introverted I am, Whereas I feel when I was
younger and I was introverted, it was like, oh, she's shy.
Like it's very easy to point to a kid who's
introverted and say, she's shy, and when you're older, especially
(11:32):
even in high school, maybe I was projecting. But I
think I maybe was seen as kind of a bitch
because I was shy, and because I was an actor
trying to be an actor in this small town. So
it kind of gave the illusion of Oh, who does
this girl think she is? And she's but I really
(11:54):
like I would try to put myself out there, but
ultimately I was. I felt shy, but when people gave
me a chance, I would be excited and try to
be warm. But ultimately I think as I've gotten older,
I'm like, I've just soured with age, but I've just
kind of I guess I can come off a little
(12:14):
bit like a little Larry Larry David in me. I'm
like a twenty eight year old Larry David. Woman.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's great.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
There's things to work on, for sure. I mean it's
a little to hear. I was given that comparison the
other day, and I was a bit like, oh is
this this am? I like, I love him and I
love kurby enthusiasm, but I'm like to be compared as
a human being to like a grouchy old man. I
(12:46):
don't know, but ultimately we'll grow from it and be like, Okay,
so we've maybe got to like work on the warming
up around around people seeming more warmth.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I also think there's a really odd thing to a
lot of fame so young. For sure, you know, I
would imagine for you, you know, you got cast on Riverdale
at nineteen, like.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I was.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I think i'd been twenty one for I don't know,
fifteen days or something when I got to Wilmington to
do One Tree Hill, Like your prefrontal cortex isn't done
developing until you're twenty six. Like it's a lot, you know.
I remember feeling like I could really prove that I
was an adult. And looking back on it, especially with
(13:44):
all of us girls going back to start rewatching the
show together.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
We're so shocked. We're like, we were children. We were babies.
Who let us out of the house, who let us
do this, who put us on a set, who told
us to pretend we knew what we were doing so
we wouldn't embarrass ourselves. We were children. We should have
just been like, we have no idea what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
And I'm sure there was no essence of media training back.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Then oh no, I thought if someone asked you a question,
you had to answer it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
You were thrown to the wolves, and we like we
all are because no one ever, no one ever gives
you any sort of rule book, And when I think
maybe they should, it would have been helpful to have
like some basic outlines, but I guess you kind of
you're almost like, let me look to my elders, and
(14:30):
the people playing our parents on the show were happy
to give advice and stuff like that, but you really
are like trial by fire, yep, don't mess up.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And now a word from our sponsors who make the
show possible. What was that like for you? Like, when
you think about that season of life, do you immediately
(15:04):
think about what the audition process was like? Do you
think about the kind of WHOA, what's happening moment when
the show is this huge hit and suddenly you have
all this on your shoulders? What kind of comes up there?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
It's like a big deep breath to think about in
a way, wow, because it was seven years, and it
was from nineteen to twenty six, and I'm twenty eight
now and having time away from it, and I always
knew doing it is so hard and being in It
(15:40):
is really challenging to fully move and vacate your life
that I'm trying to start for myself in la And
I remember not even knowing that the show filmed in
Vancouver until I was on the phone with my lawyer
and he's saying, those shoots in Vancouver, and I din't
was like, where is that? So it was a I
don't think I'd ever even been through Canada, So it
(16:05):
was it was just this pick yourself up out of
this chapter of your life and PLoP you down here
and figure it out. And it is kind of figured out.
And I think people expect people are always shocked. They're like,
where did you stay? Like where were they putting you up?
And it's like, no, you relocate your life.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, they don't put you up. They don't know. They
don't pay for anything.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
They don't pay for anything. They'll give you a relocation
fee and that lasts. Yeah, that's last.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Day, and yeah that gets you your first plane ticket
and maybe if you're lucky, you get to ship your car.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I shipped my car to Washington and then I drove
it over the border. But I also like at the time,
I remember having to tell my publicist I was like,
I actually can't afford you at all? Can we can you?
Maybe you just can I pay you once I get paid.
And it's sort of like this. It wasn't awkward for
(17:05):
me to talk about money, but I didn't, you know.
I was like, I've never made money like this before,
and I don't have I don't know I had. Maybe
I don't know how much money I had in my
bank account. Not a lot, but I because I had
been acting since I was twelve, but like not making money,
so it was I don't have the means to be
(17:28):
shilling out now thousands of dollars for a publisherally, and
no one really tells you how to deal with that
as well, when you're making money so young and given
that responsibility, that was also trippy weird. It's a weird
thing to move very quickly from struggling financially to being
(17:53):
the most financially secure person around you. Yeah, it's a
bit of a shift, I think, mentally for a young
person in their twenties. And luckily I'm very responsible with money,
but it is a weird shift. But I think it
(18:13):
was more so for me kind of having to move
my whole life to a different country, and yes it
was Canada, so we're not moving somewhere crazy far away.
It's a three hour flight to la but ultimately finding
a new apartment, settling the life there. And then that
extends to seven years and it is I look back
(18:37):
really fondly, working with wonderful people that I love really
dearly and will always hold such a I mean, you know,
like you just had a special place in your heart
for these people that you were on this journey with that.
So few people understand what it's like to just be
a part of a television show, and so I understand
(18:59):
the privilege in that, like, wow, I'm so lucky I
have that experience, because I think it's rare and it's
wonderful to be on a show for seven years. It's
like a blessing and and I look at it as
such absolutely, and although it was hard and had its challenges,
I really do see it as it's the reason why
(19:19):
I'm sitting in my house and it's I'm you know,
was able to then have a production company and do
everything else that I did. It was a catalyst for
my whole career, and so yeah, it absolutely changed my
life and was the biggest pivotal moment in my career
thus far.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So totally yeah, And I think it can be all
of those things. You know. It can be something you're
so grateful for. It can be something that was incredibly trying.
I think, you know, like my heart just swells hearing
you talk, because I know what it is to love
a group of people and also to be completely isolated
(20:01):
and in some senses trapped with a group of people
because you do. It's it's sort of like my girlfriend
and I were talking about this the other day. She
was in La visiting and we hadn't seen each other
in a while. I just realized, I'm saying this. I
mean one of my girlfriend's from my show, not like
my girlfriend, like my romantic party. Must clarify for the audience.
(20:22):
They're gonna be like, oh, is she talking about girlfriend? Yes,
platonic girlfriend. And and you know, she was out from
the East Coast and we were just talking about some
things and I said, I said, I have this really
crazy kind of visual. It's like when you see those
videos of bald eagles plucking salmon up out of the
(20:43):
river and it's so majestic, but it's like it's like
eagles pluck you out of your life and then they
just drop you in a nest and you're like, where
am I? Where is water? What is this? And you
know everyone's like, aren't you so excited? And you're like, yes,
but also I think I'm terrified. Yeah, and it's so surreal,
so I.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Really And then add having a Twitter a having a
Twitter into that equation, I really not And it's or
any form of social media, and it's horrible. It's way
way scarier just because no one. There's just no one
(21:23):
to tell you that you're about to be hated on
so hard just existing and what the fuck do you
do with that?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
You know, it's it's a really weird thing because we
didn't have that when our show first started. But what
existed in the vacuum were the tabloids and they're still around,
but they can't completely create a narrative of who you are,
because you get to be who you are in whatever
(21:55):
way you choose to. I'm social.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
One of the really interesting things for us was like, oh,
we're all just going to be cast as these archetypes
and then that's who you're going to want us to be,
by the way, forever, not even when it doesn't really
even get to change when we can have our own
social media because you made so much money clickbaiting us
as these people, yeah, for ten years before it existed,
(22:21):
that you're desperate for more of it. And that's an
interesting thing too, because, like Hillary always used to say that,
she's like, dude, the behind the scenes drama on our
show is so extra, like literally, I don't know how
true this is for yours, but like everyone on our
show dated everyone on our show, And she's like, thanks
for taking the tabloid bullets for the rest of us, babe,
(22:43):
And I'm like, yeah, then thanks.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
You and you yeah, yeah, I mean yeah now.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Because it's like we're kids, and what are you going
to do? It's like it's literally they put you back
in high school.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I would watch some of the things I would just
see because we're all online about you guys and your world,
and I was like, God, I love so much of
what you're getting to do and the ways you're at
least appeared, you know, these incredibly strong female friendships. And
I would kind of see the desire for people to
(23:15):
clickbait your lives. And I don't know if you want
to talk about it or not, and you can absolutely
say now and then we'll just cut it. But it's
like when I saw just as the Internet surfaces things
on your explore page like you and Cole falling in
love as like young kids on a show, I was like,
oh my god, I hope someone protects these babies because
I've been through it and I don't know. It's in
(23:40):
one way, I'm so excited you guys got to be
yourselves in your own space and there wasn't a vacuum
that people wanted to fill for you.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
But also.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
The fact that you can have your own identity online
then opens you up to being one singular human. It's
eving feedback from tens of millions of people a day
and not normal and it's not sustainable. And I know
it's hard for me, and like, you know, I don't
know what am I fifteen years older than you or
something like, I can't imagine how hard it is for you,
(24:11):
how hard it was, so I don't know how did
you make sense of it?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Well? I also can't imagine living in a world where
you are not in charge of your own public narrative
at all. Like that, I mean, I can't We both
can there's.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
It wasn't great.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I can't imagine and to feel even that I have
a platform of my own. That's even now I'm sort
of sometimes you know, it still is. I think about
social media a lot, especially lately, and I think I
think it's really bad. Yeah, I think at the end
(24:47):
of the day, I wish I could have been someone
who just never had to have it, because I think
ultimately it's caused a lot of stress and anxiety for me.
On the flip side, when you're starting out in your career,
this is how you build your career. These days, people
(25:09):
need to see who you are. International fans need to
be able to connect and follow you. But yeah, I
mean suddenly you're subjected to not that you're not going
to be anyways, because regardless of whether you have an
account or not, people will comment on you forever. So
it's like, either you have a social media or you don't,
(25:30):
people are going to still talk about you. But to
be with my own eyes, viewing like as an almost
an audience member, what people have to say about you
or your life or your relationship, or you what you're
wearing on a carpet, it's just it really does what
(25:52):
this idea that whoever you're seeing on the other end
of social media is just this figure that's moving around
and you're seeing, oh they're there now, Oh they're in
New York. Now, oh they're in LA and they're doing
this thing and they look beautiful, and now maybe they
don't look so good, and now all these other things,
and it really is I say, give about this the
(26:13):
other night, like, no wonder we as a society, I feel,
are dealing with such unhappiness right now and anxiety, Like
the levels of anxiety in young people and depression and
suicide rates are just out of control. And it's because
(26:33):
we sit on our little black boxes that being an
iPhone and look at this narrative that everyone is choosing
to show the world. It's what narrative are you showing?
You're obviously not going to show the bad parts. Yeah,
and this is not revelatory. I'm not saying anything revelatory
(26:55):
by any means, but it's I think it's a good
reminder because I think when I set on my Instagram,
I feel Instagram. I'm becoming very distant from Instagram because
I feel that that is the most fake form of
social media currently TikTok for me, I feel is more authentic.
(27:16):
You see people telling real stories. It doesn't feel like
they're trying to present a front. I feel they're genuinely
people that I see or follow are presenting this is
what's going on in my life, this is what sucks.
And then you see camaraderie usually in the comments of
people sharing stories and being there for each other and
(27:37):
just being there's this openness about it. Whereas you go
on this glossy Instagram and everyone, including myself, is you're
writing this image and presenting the prettiest glam photos and
this is me with all my friends, or you're just
presenting the best you know.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Oh well, and it's interesting because yes, absolutely, you're right,
and it's so weird to My friend Kathleen said something
the other day that I thought was really wise. She
was like, here's my catch up, you know, photo carousel
on Instagram. She goes to be clear, this is the
highlight reel, but the low lights don't go on Instagram.
(28:21):
They go to the group chat. Yeah, And I was like, yeah,
because why would you want everybody's opinions on what you're
struggling with. They're already so horrible to you on what's
going well, you know, so it's very tricky this. It's
a constant sort of question I have of what do
I want to open up and what do I not?
(28:41):
You know, there's so many things I don't share, and
in a way, I think privacy is so important, but
also when you don't share, there's that vacuum again, so
it's like I don't know what it is. And I
think that's why, to go back to what I was
saying when we first got into the Zoom room together,
I really appreciate what you choose to share with people
(29:06):
and how intentional it seems you want to be about it,
because in a lot of ways, that's something I've been
trying to do for as long as I've been on
the internet too, And I appreciate that, yes, you'll go
to this beautiful event, but be like I was also
actually really anxious, and last week I was talking about
what it's like to deal with cystic acne or depression
(29:29):
or like we aren't paper dolls where everything is perfect.
We're actually these three dimensional humans and shit's complicated alas
for everyone, and I like that you're willing to discuss it,
particularly as a woman in your peer group, particularly as
a person who did launch into success on a hit
(29:50):
show during social media and not free and then having
to figure out how to navigate it. I'm curious how
you felt. Was it sort of obvious of course I'm
going to talk about the real stuff, or were you
ever nervous to say I actually am a person who
suffers from depression and anxiety.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Was that.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Was that unnerving or did it feel important? Or maybe
it was a little bit of both.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I well, thank you for everything you said, but I
don't actually ever really remember stopping and thinking, this is
what I'm going to stand for, and you're almost you
start kind of having weirdly those conversations when to me,
my experience was like when you meet with when you
meet with publicists, you start kind of talking about your
(30:39):
image and you're sort of for the first time having
to think about your image, like I had never had
to think about it before. Obviously it's so and now
it's like, who do you want? No one. I don't
think anyone was directly asking me this, but the subtext
was who would you like to be perceived as? Or
what would you like to stand for? And I not
(31:02):
in a bad way people want to know they were.
They're like, let me help you with this narratives of Ultimately,
that's literally a PR person, a publicist. It's public relations,
and it's how you're relating to the public and how
they're going to perceive you. And I think I didn't
really have an answer to that. And I was also
(31:23):
playing this very seemingly perfect I quite literally the girl
next door and playing this girl with energy. I say
that because I'm chronically fatigued all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, seven years on a series will do that to you.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Well yeah, but I think just to me, I've since
I was so young, have dealt with anxiety and depression,
and then as I got older, getting diagnosed with add
and then PTSD and then OCD. It's like, I mean,
the list goes on, and I think, I don't want
(32:05):
to be someone who talks about this chapter of my
life once it's over. I don't think that really helps people.
And I think I'm in it now. I've talked about
this stuff for a while now, so it's like I
might as well keep helping if I can, and to
be in the position that I'm in now where people
(32:27):
may see, oh, look at this great success you've had,
and I go, yes, But also, I'm going to be
real with you, and I'm not going to come back
and talk about how hard this chapter was once it's over,
because first of all, what if it's never over, and
what if I continue to struggle in the ways that
I struggle mentally? Okay, So I don't want to just
(32:49):
put my authenticity or openness about my life and my
experiences on hold until I feel better. I just don't
think that's helping anyone. And ultimately, if I'm going to
I don't want to say suffer because that never feels
like the right word. But struggle with challenges that millions
(33:10):
of other people face, but I get the opportunity to
do it in a more public sphere and maybe in
a way that people really call, people really call into
question how do you feel that way? And that was
really difficult for me when I first was stepping into
the spotlight and having people basically tell me that I
(33:32):
didn't have a right to feel.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And now a word from our sponsors, the idea that
you are supposed to wait until you feel better and
then reflect on your experience in a way suggests that
(33:56):
you need fixing and you don't need fixing, or.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
That you need to be quiet until your problems are solved,
or in the public eye that unless you have an
answer to give people as to how you came out
of it, best just keep your mouth shut. And I'm
the type of person who thinks, well, to me, it's helpful.
(34:22):
It's not fully helpful for me to see someone getting
a golden globe and saying keep going, don't give up.
I'm like, well, yeah, because you're receiving an award now,
and it's like, but how did you feel when you
had to convince yourself to keep going? And I think
(34:47):
that's way more helpful to someone like me who I
find it inspiring when people open up about their struggles
as they're happening, and to be able to know, Wow,
this person's like really reflecting on their life and being
(35:09):
open with the challenges that they're facing now, not what
they were facing, which is important, but ultimately I think
it just helps you connect to this is a big word,
but humanity better because you're saying I'm in it now,
I'm struggling now, even if I don't have an answer
(35:31):
to give you guys on what to do or how
I'm going to get out of this just to let
people know that I'm still struggling with XYZ. I think
sometimes is enough to make people go, oh, okay, well
maybe that makes me feel better to know that someone
(35:51):
who I think maybe has all these things. And I
would be happy if I had all these things, because ultimately,
and this is the whole point is it's not what
you have. The most successful person in the world, whoever
you want to think of that what success looks like.
(36:12):
I'm pretty one hundred percent positive that person struggles and
whatever your idea of success is someone who has that struggles.
So why do they struggle when they have the things?
Because it's not about externally having things. It's I could
(36:32):
get and I've realized this, I could get everything I'm
looking for in my career because career is a big,
hard stress thing for me, and I could say, Okay,
I could get the thing that I'm for. But if
(36:52):
I got if I got that thing tomorrow, I don't
think I would be happy still, Like, I don't think
it would just solve every problem because ultimately the issue
is internally, yeah, what I'm going through. So giving someone
(37:12):
an award, I'm just using awards as an example, because
it's like the most clear view of here's success. I'm
here around and it's a trophy. It's like a literal
trophy of success, and I think a lot of people
view that as success. So that's just sort of where
I'm coming from. But I think, yeah, I guess my
(37:35):
whole point is I need to deal with what's going
on on the inside that's making me unable to be
happy with the success that I have now, because ultimately,
even if I do keep climbing this ladder and reaching
more success, I won't be able. I'll still just want
to keep climbing the ladder and wanting war. So when
isn't enough and you have to be able to receive
(38:00):
and receiving something is challenging because I feel, again it's
like an external usually an external accolade or an achievement
or something externally validating. But ultimately your insides have to
(38:22):
match up with that frequency of validation. And if inside
you're still going, oh I don't deserve this, or oh
I can do better or whatever whatever, it's not going
to land and you're not going to be able to
accept it. And I want to be in a position
where any amount of success could come my way and
(38:42):
I can go, oh, I'm happy with this, and I
can receive this because I'm resolute in my inner work.
I guess I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I think it's really important, particularly as you said, in
a career and in an ecosystem inclusive of the world
of social media and the business of entertainment. It's so
important to figure out how to like your life instead
(39:15):
of be constantly worried about what you're not doing. Yeah,
and it's not easy, but to get to to get
to a point where you realize that that is part
of the work. Yeah, I think enables you to begin
to widen your periphery and have a healthier experience with
(39:37):
your life in general.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Well so yeah, So, like I'm saying this all now
having not reached that point.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Yeah, Oh I'm not either, by the way, So yeah,
but I but that's important to yeah, to emphasize because
I don't I don't have the answer, and I haven't
and I'm working on it.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
You could say I'm a work in progress. Hey, hey,
but ultimately I don't have the answer, and I think
it's something that is a journey. They say life is
a journey, and apparently it is because you're just constantly
evolving as you should be. And I don't think this
(40:17):
feeling that I'm striving for this sort of I guess
you'd call it inner peace, or the ability to receive,
or the ability to see my success as enough. I
don't have that yet, and I am working on it,
and I'm sure i'll be working on it until the
day I don't. But at least if I can keep
(40:40):
chipping away at it and keep climbing that ladder of
achieving that feeling, that's what's important. I don't have to.
You could tell me you'll never fully get there. I'll go, Okay,
well that sucks, But at least I'll know that forever
I will be trying to feel that piece with my self.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
And then you know that you're spending a certain amount
of time practicing gratitude, being introspective, being willing to self interrogate.
You're not just pac manning around the world. You're in
the emotional kind of fiber of it, and that I
(41:20):
think is a really noble pursuit, you know, for ourselves,
but also for the kind of imprint you want to
leave on the world around you.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Well, to me, my thought is Isn't that the whole point?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I think so, because I.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Think the whole point and for me is this is
a soul's journey, it's not our body's journey. And to me,
I'm like, I'm on this lifetime to level up. I
want to become more conscious and raise my consciousness and
be aware and be someone that people can live up
(42:00):
to as a mentor. And I want to be like
the old wise grandmother. I want that, and I think
so in order to achieve that, I've got to keep
showing and I've got to keep doing this work and
I plan on it, and to me, that's so much more.
That's so much more of a successful life if I
(42:21):
can focus on the internal things than anything external that
is also temporary and fleeting and ultimately, whatever you believe,
if you believe, and I still don't necessarily know what
I believe, but if I think that my soul is
going to continue on into another lifetime, that I'll have,
(42:44):
like as I say, leveled up in a way, and
I can enter this next life with a even higher
consciousness and then even more And again I don't know,
I'm still figuring out what I believe so far as
reincarnation is a scary word, and I don't know if
I like that word, but that's more so, I think
I like the idea that your soul is kind of
(43:05):
just on this forever journey, that even when you aren't
here anymore, when your body isn't here, your consciousness keeps going.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And I have a book for you. I'm gonna I'm
going to send you a book.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
What is it? What is it?
Speaker 1 (43:23):
I'll offline you about it, but yeah, I've got to
send it to you.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
I'm a big I'm a big self help book person's
spirituality book person.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
What excites me about it is it's because when you
said that, you know, the word feels scary, I'm like,
I get it. It's why sometimes when the emotion feels
big for me, I need to lean into the data
or the science. And I think, you know, just some
of the laws of physics, you know, energy ones created
can never be destroyed, so I can lean on the
scientific idea. And this book is a sort of merger
(43:56):
of scientific research and spiritual theory, and it's I'm going
to send it to you, and I'm excited about it.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
I love spirituality books and all that stuff, so I'm
very inteh.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
I just love the I love learning about us and
I it might seem like a weird left turn, but
I'm thinking about it because of the way that you
want to pursue meaning. And you've talked about mental health certainly,
and you've also talked about the pressure that comes for women,
(44:27):
but really all I think all young people because of
social media and then the expectations, particularly that get put
on us when we're on camera. You know, you've spoken
about body dysmorphia, you've spoken about acne, and now you've
found it a skincare line. And I actually feel, and
(44:48):
I guess this is my question, it feels to me
like you are figuring out a way not just to
like do a beauty product, but to really lean into
this space of personal identity and self acceptance that you
struggle with. It feels to me like you thought you've
(45:09):
thought to yourself, I really struggle with this, and I
know so many other young women struggle with this, and
other young people struggle with this, and maybe if I
solve a problem for myself, I can help other people
solve a problem for them.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Pretty dead on, I think that analysis because because I
when I'm struggling with something, and I think this is where,
to be honest, the openness about my mental health started.
Was when I'm struggling with something, I need to share
that because then that's how I connect with people, and
(45:45):
that's how I feel seen.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Well, you feel less alone, right, yeah, of course.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
And I think ultimately when you're struggling, you just want
to feel less alone. That's why we see a therapist
to be like, tell me I'm not alone, and they're like,
I see plenty of it. Yeah, it's like you're not
alone ever. But I think I started sharing because I
was struggling with acne and my body image and my
(46:12):
depression and my anxiety, and and then I just was
received a lot of encouragement when I did that, which
is amazing and sort of encouraged me to just keep
being this open book at least when it comes to
these facets of my life. So I was just pretty
(46:35):
I mean again, I also had people telling me you
don't have a right to feel anxiety, which is the
craziest thing I've ever heard, that I don't have. The
body image thing was hard and telling, you know, people
telling me I don't have a right to feel a
certain way about my body because I look a certain way.
(46:55):
It's it's I understand. But ultimately this is where advocting
steps in. And you have no idea how someone looks
at themselves. And I've seen, I'm sure you've seen some
of the most beautiful people in the world have the
biggest self esteem issues. Yes, And so ultimately you just
(47:15):
have no idea what you think is an ideal beauty.
Someone has that and they aren't happy with it. Yeah,
And for acne in particular, I stepped into this space
where you're not supposed to have that, and people around
me didn't really have it. Of course, always like the
(47:37):
guys always have overren skin and it's annoying. But the women,
you know, we're dealing with hormonal acne and the way
more makeup than all these things. Yeah. And I have
had acne just since I was twelve and thirteen, and
it was like manageable acne and then as I but
(47:57):
even when I would get this reoccurring assist in the
middle of my forehead, which is this bitch is back again.
And I remember really hating that my school didn't let
us wear hats because I thought to myself, if only
could wear a beanie and pull this thing down over
my forehead so no one would see this, or if
(48:19):
we just turned these fluorescent, awful lights off, maybe no
one would notice this crater on my forehead. And so
I'm very familiar with the feeling of acne in everyday
life and what it can do to you mentally. But
then I've also experienced the exacerbated version when I'm literally
(48:40):
in front of a camera with said acne on my
face and people are literally staring at a screen watching me,
and the paranoia around that, and I think I felt
really called to because again, I'm like, everything kind of
stems from me wanting to. It's not selfish by any means,
(49:04):
but I'm like, ultimately, I'm trying to help myself still
as well by helping other people so we can all
collectively feel better because I want to feel better too.
I still have acne, and I want these products that
are not going to trigger my acne. So I know
that people who have the same issues as I do
(49:27):
want that as well. But also important to note that
even people who don't have acne and don't deal with this,
you want good quality skincare that's not irritating you. Causing
any damage that maybe you're not superficially seeing. You want
things that aren't stuffed with bad filler ingredients. You just
that's also not going to be one hundred dollars. I
(49:51):
just think I'm sure we get sent pr boxes of crap,
and I in the beginning of my career was like, oh,
hell yeah, I'm being sent skincare line after skincare line.
I'm going to put this on my face and I
absolutely destroyed my skin because I was just trying everything.
(50:12):
And I think ultimately I wanted to create a line
for anyone, but for with actbi prone and sensitive skin
people in mind that they could trust, they could fully
trust a skincare line that wasn't going to make things worse. Yes,
and to be a safe haven, if you will, And
(50:35):
to know that I can top to bottom go to
this personal day line and know that if I purchase something,
it's going to be free of these bad ingredients.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. I
think people often forget we're so pressured to have our
skin look a certain way that we forget that our
skin is our body's largest organ. You know, would you
(51:11):
be like dumping chemical agents on top of your liver
all day. No, so you don't want to do it
with your skin either, And I think it's I think
it's very cool that you lasered in on an area
of personal struggle, understood the larger struggle of that area
for so many people, and then said I think I
(51:32):
can help fix this and maybe do it more holistically
and more kindly. And some of the other folks out
there are doing it, and I think it's very very cool.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Thank you. I think ultimately I I don't at the
end of the day, this job, as much as people
would like to tell me that I don't have a
right to say, is stressful. Is incredibly stressful and hard.
And unless you're in that position, you can't make that judgment.
You just can't. And if I'm gonna be in a
(52:13):
career that's very stressful. If I have the privilege and
opportunity to help other people, absolutely, And I never ever
wanted to put my face or name on something. My
name isn't even on the brand that created intentionally because
if people are saying, hey, do you want to create something,
(52:35):
I'm going to go, okay, Well, it has to help people.
And also I would love for people to not even
know that I'm attached to it, because that's how effective
the products need to be. Yes, because I can't would
I mean, it would be very embarrassing to make promise
that made people's skin worse or caused reactions. And it's
been like every day I'm receiving a text message now
(52:58):
because the line's been out since the end of October,
people who have been using the line for a month now,
who are texting me going, I'm getting complimented on my
skin for the first time in my life, and that
is I just think, Okay, that's why I'm doing this,
because I not for truly any other reason than I
(53:19):
also wanted this line of like safe skincare, but to
help other people in the process. I that has been
the most fulfilling. It really is like to receive a
text message from people saying my skin is changing because
of these products. I just know and deeply empathize with
(53:44):
how bad a breakout I make you feel. And to
feel that something is in the world now that people
are it's positively impacting the way that they're viewing their
face when they wake up in the morning is ultimately
very very good for my so I think you feel
very I feel very warm warm about it. I love that,
(54:05):
which is like that's the goal. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Absolutely, it makes me think about and I don't even
remember where I said it. I feel like you always
have your best moment of brilliance when you're not paying
attention to yourself. And at some point I was talking
about advice I wanted to give to my younger self,
and I said that I wanted to say to her,
you are allowed to be a masterpiece and a work
(54:29):
in progress simultaneously. And I think what you're talking about
is exactly that kind of energy where you are trying
to be your best self and also make room for
the process of being a human. At the same time,
you want to have gratitude for everything you've done and
still have goals. You want to be able to relish
(54:50):
in where you are today and still dream about your future.
You know, it's the tension of the both, and I
think when you lean into it and choose to be
introspective can be so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah, and it takes the pressure off, I think, to
remind yourself that you are an ever evolving person and yes,
you've got you've got time to grow and to change
you've got I mean hopefully, but I hope so metaphorically
even you've got, you've got time and space to do it.
(55:25):
And you don't need to be the best version of
yourself by the time you're thirty or by the time
you're whatever. I just think to remind it's a gentle
We all need that gentle reminder of you are really
that ever evolving thing, and that's what life is literally about.
(55:50):
So stop trying to stop trying to meet the deadline.
There is no deadline of that. It's the whole life's journey.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
When you think about that sort of ethos, Is there
something and it can be professional or personal, or maybe
it's a mix of both. Is there something as you
look ahead at the new year that's about to start
that really feels like your work in progress right now?
Speaker 3 (56:13):
I think lately it's giving myself grace and giving others
grace and kind of understanding what that actually means. But
to me, I think it's the big one for me
has been comparison is the thief of joy, yes, and
(56:34):
again that's the social media of it all. Does not help,
but to be happy for others when they get their flowers,
which is a phrase that I really like, and knowing
that there's space for everyone to have that. And I
think we're just in this industry that hammers into this
(56:59):
competition and if you're not at this certain peak of
your success by this certain time, that you've missed the
boat or that. I think that something that a lot
of people can relate to is obviously you're watching everyone's
lives on social media, and so you're comparing yourself to
(57:20):
people who have what you want, and if you're not
seeing yourself getting it anytime soon, or if you feel that, oh,
that's so far away from me, or I'll never achieve that,
I think the comparison if you took away if you
sat with yourself and took away everybody else's success and
sat with your own and were able to focus on
(57:43):
how far you've come and what you've achieved without measuring
it against other people, yes, I think your satisfaction would
be exponentially higher. And so giving myself grace because I
know that I'm literally living in a way world that
tells me to compare myself to every person that I see.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
All the time, and it's horrible.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Yes, Like it's like, just remind yourself of that. That's
kind of what that's just what you need give you,
give yourself the grace of knowing that that is the
world that you're in. And so it's understandable that you
feel these things. And I think I've had to just
give myself a break and saying yeah, like we get it, Yeah,
(58:30):
I get it. I can look at my problems and go, yeah,
it makes sense why I feel that way, and then
going okay, well, let's try to eliminate then the factors
of maybe let's be on social media less. Maybe let's
remind ourselves of this phrase, like everyone has room to
(58:51):
have their flowers, Let people have that, Let people have
their thing, and don't be angry or jealous or covet
what other people have. No one is taking away what
you could have by getting by getting what they have.
No one's taking anything away from you. Exactly. There's room
for all of us. It's a big planet, it's a
(59:12):
big world. Yep, there's room for us all. And I
think that, to me is a big thing. That's in
the last half of this year I've been landing on
and so I will be carrying that with me into
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
I love that I think that's really wonderful.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Thanks, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
I also, I kind of think that this making space
for that truth and realizing that the narrative that there
isn't enough, the idea that scarcity is somehow our destiny
as humans. I just think that's one of those lies
the patriarchy tells us. So when we are trying to
(59:55):
create a more holistic human experience and lean particularly think
into generational wisdom, the generational wisdom of women, it's like, oh,
we're not we're not doing the scarcity thing that those
guys in power told us.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Well, it's the phrase you're too much as a woman.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
No, ma'am, And we're not doing that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
That doesn't exist, and that's not bad.
Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
It's someone years ago, when I was we were into
the sort of real throes of our of our first
big show, said to me, you need to take any
person who's ever said to you you're intimidating, say no,
you're just intimidated. And I was like, oh, it makes
me feel so strong and powerful. So it's all all
(01:00:40):
those lessons I think that we can glean and you know,
take with us as we start figuring out how to
be these more human, more empathetic people are.
Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
That's a great thing. Whoever said that to you.
Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Right, it was really good and I was like, oh,
tattoo it on my soul.
Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
It's a perspective. It's just a perspective shift, like there's
nothing wrong with you. Maybe it's how the other person
is perceiving you that's wrong. Maybe maybe that may do that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much for joining me today.
You're just a jem.
Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Thank you, well, so are you. And I appreciate you
offering up a space in which people can feel safe
to talk about the things that are not easy. And
I think it's rare that people cultivate a space that
feels really safe and warm, and you do that really
(01:01:36):
so well and I and I appreciate that because sometimes
I walk away from podcasts thinking, oh, this is gonna
hurt me in some way, like this is gonna maybe backfire.
It's gonna maybe backfire. But I just think definitely not
the case here.
Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
So thank you. Yeah, to get to conversationally break bread
with people is a supreme privilege.
Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Uh, thanks for you doing you do it well. Yeah,
thank you for having me
Hey, friends, it is a weird time to be making content,
certainly from here in Los Angeles, California. This wonderful episode
with Lily we actually recorded a few weeks before the fires,
and now it's up and we won't be discussing it
obviously on this episode since it hadn't happened yet. But
(00:22):
I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows there
are so many incredible resources and groups that you can support.
I've actually got a really wonderful mutual aid list in
a highlight on my Instagram stories and we will put
it in the show notes as well. If you have
a heart for the people and places that make La
so wonderful and special, please consider visiting that and supporting
(00:47):
our city. Love you all, I hope you're staying safe.
Welcome to work in progress high WIF Smarties. Today we
are joined by someone I have been a fan of
(01:07):
for such a long time. I am so impressed, and
I so admire the way that she carries herself, the
things she's willing to talk about, the ways she's willing
to sent her really human experiences in a world that
doesn't always want to do that. And she happens to
be brilliant, stunning, an entrepreneur, a producer, an incredible actor,
(01:30):
and an author. Today's guest is none other than Lily
ryan Hart. You likely met Lily portraying Betty Cooper on
the CW drama series Riverdale. Can't wait to talk to
her about our high school experiences on the cedeb. She
has worked on incredible films from Hustlers to Chemical Hearts,
(01:51):
and she recently launched her own production company. On top
of all of this incredible success, Lily released a book
of poet in twenty twenty titled Swimming Lessons, and her
book explores themes like young love, anxiety, depression, fame, heartbreak.
These are the kinds of things she's really heart forward
(02:11):
about discussing with her audience. She really welcomes folks in
to talk about everything from insecurity to body dysmorphia to depression.
And I really think she is doing such an incredible
service to the world with the conversations that she chooses
to have and the tenderness with which she chooses to
(02:32):
have them. And I'm really excited for all of you
to hear today's conversation because that tenderness carries through this
episode as well.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
First of all, it was so much fun to get
to see you last.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Week of this. I just loved that me too.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, I've admired your work and the way that you
use your platform and the things that you choose to
talk about for such a long time, so I'm thrilled
you're here too.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, I was really happy. I days of events,
I kind of am always going why did I say
yes to this?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
All day long?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Because I just I just have the social anxiety, so
I have to push, really push myself to leave my
house and go to those things. But yeah, but I'm
always I'm always usually happy that I do, and then
I'm there, so I always walk away. I'm like, okay,
it was like the fear of going was much worse
than the actual thing.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, the anticipatory anxiety is often worse for me than
the experiential anxiety. But it doesn't mean I don't have it.
I can try to talk myself out of it the
whole time, but yeah, it doesn't leave my body till
I get to the thing and I run into people
that I've been excited to meet or I see friends,
and then I'm like, what was I so freaked? Out.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Wow. Yeah, it's thee I mean, there is like because
it's not just go to a party. It's like you're
hiring people and you're having to look good and like
get the freaking glam photo and make sure you are
in a social mood or whatever. And I don't know,
(04:20):
it's just it's not like going to a regular party.
There's just like it feels like work to me. Yeah,
so it's like, ultimately I'm going to work in a way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Totally, it is absolutely work. And I also giggled because
I'd had to go to something.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Before and.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
The thing I went to earlier to see some friends.
As I was leaving, I got caught in like one
of those moments of just la rain. So by the
time I got back across town to see all of
you guys, i'd gotten wet, I was in velvet. I
had like a cool hairtuk moment happening. Yeah, And then
(04:59):
by the the time I got to our event, I
looked at the photos and I was like cool, I
just looked like I gently electrocuted myself.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It was like this moment where I was like, you
kind of just gotta let it go. Like I don't know, no, one.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
No one would have ever known.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You're very sweet. But it was like this very funny
moment where I was like, am I gonna let the
fact that like I'm a Frisbell now make me go home?
Or am I just going to go see my pals?
And I was very bad that I came.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
To see every You looked so lovely and there was
no one would have ever see, No one ever would know,
I never know, No one knows, right. I had to
have be like safety pinned, like the I did a
beauty con in November and the tailor accidentally took the
buttons off my sleeves, so we had to like safety
pin them, and who gives a shit? That's yeah, you know,
(05:50):
it's like a little bit like, oh this sucks, and
you're rushing out the door while it's happening and like
safety pitting things. But I've had some red carpet moments
like that a few times, and that always is it
doesn't help the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
My best friend in college split her pants at a party.
We were really we were having a great night. It
turned into like a dance off moment. Everything was great,
and then she forgot how inflexible. Said pair of pants
was and split them, and I happened to have safety
pins in my bag because I was coming to this
(06:26):
thing from class, And ever since, I've always made sure
to carry a couple of safety pins in a clutch
when I go out to something, just in case it
happens to someone else. Yeah, Oh, I feel you on
the safety pinage there.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, I've definitely had an entire dress fully break, like
and it's like, what I mean some of these things,
I just I'm like, I got to give this over
to did God here, Like there's really nothing I can
do in this moment at the end of the day.
It's like a red carpet that no one but me
will like ever really remember totally. So yeah, stuff like
(07:03):
that where I'm like, actually, no one but me is
actually fully paying attention to like me in this moment,
If that makes sense. Maybe that's a stupid thing to
say when you have like fans who actually are very
much paying attention. But I guess I'm like, I'm going
to hold on to the things that go wrong and
no one else is going to really notice them exactly.
And if I look back, if I look bad on
a carpet, the only person that that's hurting is ultimately
(07:25):
and so.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
One's really going to care. Yeah, but it doesn't lessen
the experience. But I'm so I love that we get
to talk about these things, honestly, because I feel like
when I started working in TV, nobody wanted to talk
about anxiety. Everyone was like, you're so privileged, how dare
(07:48):
you talk about stress or whatever? And it's like, I
actually think it's quite refreshing to know that everyone is human.
I'm really curious for you. I normally dive in with
this question, but we we started in the present. I
want to know a little bit about your childhood because
I think it's really interesting to sit down with people
(08:08):
who our audiences know generally from a body of work.
And I want to know if if your version of
yourself today got to sit down with your eight or
nine or ten year old self, would you see the
through line from what she was really interested to what
you do now? Did you always want to be a
(08:29):
performer or did this sort of all come out of
the ether?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
No, it was really I think in my bones, and
I always think it was a little bit written in
the stars because I never had really a backup plan
and I never wanted one, and that's a bit hard
to tell your family who's never No one in my
family was in this field, and no one was arts
(08:59):
and to pursue it from Bay Village, Ohio. It was
just sort of a far off dream, seemingly so it
was a big, big dream for kind of a small
town and to have no connections. It was sort of like, Okay, sure,
dream big. And I was never told not to. But
I absolutely came into the world liking to entertain people
(09:24):
and be funny and goofy around my family, and weirdly though,
was shy and had social anxiety, like to the point
where when I was very young didn't want to go
to birthday parties. I didn't want to be I was
nervous to be around I guess the other kids, but
more so I think it was like nervousness to be
(09:45):
away from my mother. It was very attached to her.
But within my family and friends, I was always wanting
to perform and be silly, and I grew up making
videos on a camera for myself that I would show
my family, forcing them to watch. You know, these probably
(10:06):
not very entertaining videos, but discovering windows movie maker when
I was thirteen or something and editing together my own
little movies and adding music to them and making my
sister do it with me, and every time my friends
came over, we would be like, let's make it. It
was like, let's make a video. And I think that
seems to be quite common with a lot of you know, actors.
(10:29):
I find did that as a kid, so that's it
seems to be kind of a common thing. But there
was definitely always that desire to perform and be creative.
And yeah, I mean if I sat down with my
little ten year old self, it would be it would
(10:51):
be like, yeah, I'm still you. I'm still this kind
of shy, and it's interesting. I've grown up and I'm
not I don't love this, but like I've almost turned
into instead of like shy, I fear that sometimes it
can come off as more of like a Larry David
(11:11):
version of myself, where it's a little bit like, uh,
maybe I come off as a little cold because of
how introverted I am, Whereas I feel when I was
younger and I was introverted, it was like, oh, she's shy.
Like it's very easy to point to a kid who's
introverted and say, she's shy, and when you're older, especially
(11:32):
even in high school, maybe I was projecting. But I
think I maybe was seen as kind of a bitch
because I was shy, and because I was an actor
trying to be an actor in this small town. So
it kind of gave the illusion of Oh, who does
this girl think she is? And she's but I really
(11:54):
like I would try to put myself out there, but
ultimately I was. I felt shy, but when people gave
me a chance, I would be excited and try to
be warm. But ultimately I think as I've gotten older,
I'm like, I've just soured with age, but I've just
kind of I guess I can come off a little
(12:14):
bit like a little Larry Larry David in me. I'm
like a twenty eight year old Larry David. Woman.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's great.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
There's things to work on, for sure. I mean it's
a little to hear. I was given that comparison the
other day, and I was a bit like, oh is
this this am? I like, I love him and I
love kurby enthusiasm, but I'm like to be compared as
a human being to like a grouchy old man. I
(12:46):
don't know, but ultimately we'll grow from it and be like, Okay,
so we've maybe got to like work on the warming
up around around people seeming more warmth.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I also think there's a really odd thing to a
lot of fame so young. For sure, you know, I
would imagine for you, you know, you got cast on Riverdale
at nineteen, like.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I was.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I think i'd been twenty one for I don't know,
fifteen days or something when I got to Wilmington to
do One Tree Hill, Like your prefrontal cortex isn't done
developing until you're twenty six. Like it's a lot, you know.
I remember feeling like I could really prove that I
was an adult. And looking back on it, especially with
(13:44):
all of us girls going back to start rewatching the
show together.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
We're so shocked. We're like, we were children. We were babies.
Who let us out of the house, who let us
do this, who put us on a set, who told
us to pretend we knew what we were doing so
we wouldn't embarrass ourselves. We were children. We should have
just been like, we have no idea what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
And I'm sure there was no essence of media training back.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Then oh no, I thought if someone asked you a question,
you had to answer it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
You were thrown to the wolves, and we like we
all are because no one ever, no one ever gives
you any sort of rule book, And when I think
maybe they should, it would have been helpful to have
like some basic outlines, but I guess you kind of
you're almost like, let me look to my elders, and
(14:30):
the people playing our parents on the show were happy
to give advice and stuff like that, but you really
are like trial by fire, yep, don't mess up.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And now a word from our sponsors who make the
show possible. What was that like for you? Like, when
you think about that season of life, do you immediately
(15:04):
think about what the audition process was like? Do you
think about the kind of WHOA, what's happening moment when
the show is this huge hit and suddenly you have
all this on your shoulders? What kind of comes up there?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
It's like a big deep breath to think about in
a way, wow, because it was seven years, and it
was from nineteen to twenty six, and I'm twenty eight
now and having time away from it, and I always
knew doing it is so hard and being in It
(15:40):
is really challenging to fully move and vacate your life
that I'm trying to start for myself in la And
I remember not even knowing that the show filmed in
Vancouver until I was on the phone with my lawyer
and he's saying, those shoots in Vancouver, and I din't
was like, where is that? So it was a I
don't think I'd ever even been through Canada, So it
(16:05):
was it was just this pick yourself up out of
this chapter of your life and PLoP you down here
and figure it out. And it is kind of figured out.
And I think people expect people are always shocked. They're like,
where did you stay? Like where were they putting you up?
And it's like, no, you relocate your life.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, they don't put you up. They don't know. They
don't pay for anything.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
They don't pay for anything. They'll give you a relocation
fee and that lasts. Yeah, that's last.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Day, and yeah that gets you your first plane ticket
and maybe if you're lucky, you get to ship your car.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I shipped my car to Washington and then I drove
it over the border. But I also like at the time,
I remember having to tell my publicist I was like,
I actually can't afford you at all? Can we can you?
Maybe you just can I pay you once I get paid.
And it's sort of like this. It wasn't awkward for
(17:05):
me to talk about money, but I didn't, you know.
I was like, I've never made money like this before,
and I don't have I don't know I had. Maybe
I don't know how much money I had in my
bank account. Not a lot, but I because I had
been acting since I was twelve, but like not making money,
so it was I don't have the means to be
(17:28):
shilling out now thousands of dollars for a publisherally, and
no one really tells you how to deal with that
as well, when you're making money so young and given
that responsibility, that was also trippy weird. It's a weird
thing to move very quickly from struggling financially to being
(17:53):
the most financially secure person around you. Yeah, it's a
bit of a shift, I think, mentally for a young
person in their twenties. And luckily I'm very responsible with money,
but it is a weird shift. But I think it
(18:13):
was more so for me kind of having to move
my whole life to a different country, and yes it
was Canada, so we're not moving somewhere crazy far away.
It's a three hour flight to la but ultimately finding
a new apartment, settling the life there. And then that
extends to seven years and it is I look back
(18:37):
really fondly, working with wonderful people that I love really
dearly and will always hold such a I mean, you know,
like you just had a special place in your heart
for these people that you were on this journey with that.
So few people understand what it's like to just be
a part of a television show, and so I understand
(18:59):
the privilege in that, like, wow, I'm so lucky I
have that experience, because I think it's rare and it's
wonderful to be on a show for seven years. It's
like a blessing and and I look at it as
such absolutely, and although it was hard and had its challenges,
I really do see it as it's the reason why
(19:19):
I'm sitting in my house and it's I'm you know,
was able to then have a production company and do
everything else that I did. It was a catalyst for
my whole career, and so yeah, it absolutely changed my
life and was the biggest pivotal moment in my career
thus far.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So totally yeah, And I think it can be all
of those things. You know. It can be something you're
so grateful for. It can be something that was incredibly trying.
I think, you know, like my heart just swells hearing
you talk, because I know what it is to love
a group of people and also to be completely isolated
(20:01):
and in some senses trapped with a group of people
because you do. It's it's sort of like my girlfriend
and I were talking about this the other day. She
was in La visiting and we hadn't seen each other
in a while. I just realized, I'm saying this. I
mean one of my girlfriend's from my show, not like
my girlfriend, like my romantic party. Must clarify for the audience.
(20:22):
They're gonna be like, oh, is she talking about girlfriend? Yes,
platonic girlfriend. And and you know, she was out from
the East Coast and we were just talking about some
things and I said, I said, I have this really
crazy kind of visual. It's like when you see those
videos of bald eagles plucking salmon up out of the
(20:43):
river and it's so majestic, but it's like it's like
eagles pluck you out of your life and then they
just drop you in a nest and you're like, where
am I? Where is water? What is this? And you
know everyone's like, aren't you so excited? And you're like, yes,
but also I think I'm terrified. Yeah, and it's so surreal,
so I.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Really And then add having a Twitter a having a
Twitter into that equation, I really not And it's or
any form of social media, and it's horrible. It's way
way scarier just because no one. There's just no one
(21:23):
to tell you that you're about to be hated on
so hard just existing and what the fuck do you
do with that?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
You know, it's it's a really weird thing because we
didn't have that when our show first started. But what
existed in the vacuum were the tabloids and they're still around,
but they can't completely create a narrative of who you are,
because you get to be who you are in whatever
(21:55):
way you choose to. I'm social.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
One of the really interesting things for us was like, oh,
we're all just going to be cast as these archetypes
and then that's who you're going to want us to be,
by the way, forever, not even when it doesn't really
even get to change when we can have our own
social media because you made so much money clickbaiting us
as these people, yeah, for ten years before it existed,
(22:21):
that you're desperate for more of it. And that's an
interesting thing too, because, like Hillary always used to say that,
she's like, dude, the behind the scenes drama on our
show is so extra, like literally, I don't know how
true this is for yours, but like everyone on our
show dated everyone on our show, And she's like, thanks
for taking the tabloid bullets for the rest of us, babe,
(22:43):
And I'm like, yeah, then thanks.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
You and you yeah, yeah, I mean yeah now.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Because it's like we're kids, and what are you going
to do? It's like it's literally they put you back
in high school.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I would watch some of the things I would just
see because we're all online about you guys and your world,
and I was like, God, I love so much of
what you're getting to do and the ways you're at
least appeared, you know, these incredibly strong female friendships. And
I would kind of see the desire for people to
(23:15):
clickbait your lives. And I don't know if you want
to talk about it or not, and you can absolutely
say now and then we'll just cut it. But it's
like when I saw just as the Internet surfaces things
on your explore page like you and Cole falling in
love as like young kids on a show, I was like,
oh my god, I hope someone protects these babies because
I've been through it and I don't know. It's in
(23:40):
one way, I'm so excited you guys got to be
yourselves in your own space and there wasn't a vacuum
that people wanted to fill for you.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
But also.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
The fact that you can have your own identity online
then opens you up to being one singular human. It's
eving feedback from tens of millions of people a day
and not normal and it's not sustainable. And I know
it's hard for me, and like, you know, I don't
know what am I fifteen years older than you or
something like, I can't imagine how hard it is for you,
(24:11):
how hard it was, so I don't know how did
you make sense of it?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Well? I also can't imagine living in a world where
you are not in charge of your own public narrative
at all. Like that, I mean, I can't We both
can there's.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
It wasn't great.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I can't imagine and to feel even that I have
a platform of my own. That's even now I'm sort
of sometimes you know, it still is. I think about
social media a lot, especially lately, and I think I
think it's really bad. Yeah, I think at the end
(24:47):
of the day, I wish I could have been someone
who just never had to have it, because I think
ultimately it's caused a lot of stress and anxiety for me.
On the flip side, when you're starting out in your career,
this is how you build your career. These days, people
(25:09):
need to see who you are. International fans need to
be able to connect and follow you. But yeah, I
mean suddenly you're subjected to not that you're not going
to be anyways, because regardless of whether you have an
account or not, people will comment on you forever. So
it's like, either you have a social media or you don't,
(25:30):
people are going to still talk about you. But to
be with my own eyes, viewing like as an almost
an audience member, what people have to say about you
or your life or your relationship, or you what you're
wearing on a carpet, it's just it really does what
(25:52):
this idea that whoever you're seeing on the other end
of social media is just this figure that's moving around
and you're seeing, oh they're there now, Oh they're in
New York. Now, oh they're in LA and they're doing
this thing and they look beautiful, and now maybe they
don't look so good, and now all these other things,
and it really is I say, give about this the
(26:13):
other night, like, no wonder we as a society, I feel,
are dealing with such unhappiness right now and anxiety, Like
the levels of anxiety in young people and depression and
suicide rates are just out of control. And it's because
(26:33):
we sit on our little black boxes that being an
iPhone and look at this narrative that everyone is choosing
to show the world. It's what narrative are you showing?
You're obviously not going to show the bad parts. Yeah,
and this is not revelatory. I'm not saying anything revelatory
(26:55):
by any means, but it's I think it's a good
reminder because I think when I set on my Instagram,
I feel Instagram. I'm becoming very distant from Instagram because
I feel that that is the most fake form of
social media currently TikTok for me, I feel is more authentic.
(27:16):
You see people telling real stories. It doesn't feel like
they're trying to present a front. I feel they're genuinely
people that I see or follow are presenting this is
what's going on in my life, this is what sucks.
And then you see camaraderie usually in the comments of
people sharing stories and being there for each other and
(27:37):
just being there's this openness about it. Whereas you go
on this glossy Instagram and everyone, including myself, is you're
writing this image and presenting the prettiest glam photos and
this is me with all my friends, or you're just
presenting the best you know.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Oh well, and it's interesting because yes, absolutely, you're right,
and it's so weird to My friend Kathleen said something
the other day that I thought was really wise. She
was like, here's my catch up, you know, photo carousel
on Instagram. She goes to be clear, this is the
highlight reel, but the low lights don't go on Instagram.
(28:21):
They go to the group chat. Yeah, And I was like, yeah,
because why would you want everybody's opinions on what you're
struggling with. They're already so horrible to you on what's
going well, you know, so it's very tricky this. It's
a constant sort of question I have of what do
I want to open up and what do I not?
(28:41):
You know, there's so many things I don't share, and
in a way, I think privacy is so important, but
also when you don't share, there's that vacuum again, so
it's like I don't know what it is. And I
think that's why, to go back to what I was
saying when we first got into the Zoom room together,
I really appreciate what you choose to share with people
(29:06):
and how intentional it seems you want to be about it,
because in a lot of ways, that's something I've been
trying to do for as long as I've been on
the internet too, And I appreciate that, yes, you'll go
to this beautiful event, but be like I was also
actually really anxious, and last week I was talking about
what it's like to deal with cystic acne or depression
(29:29):
or like we aren't paper dolls where everything is perfect.
We're actually these three dimensional humans and shit's complicated alas
for everyone, and I like that you're willing to discuss it,
particularly as a woman in your peer group, particularly as
a person who did launch into success on a hit
(29:50):
show during social media and not free and then having
to figure out how to navigate it. I'm curious how
you felt. Was it sort of obvious of course I'm
going to talk about the real stuff, or were you
ever nervous to say I actually am a person who
suffers from depression and anxiety.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Was that.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Was that unnerving or did it feel important? Or maybe
it was a little bit of both.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I well, thank you for everything you said, but I
don't actually ever really remember stopping and thinking, this is
what I'm going to stand for, and you're almost you
start kind of having weirdly those conversations when to me,
my experience was like when you meet with when you
meet with publicists, you start kind of talking about your
(30:39):
image and you're sort of for the first time having
to think about your image, like I had never had
to think about it before. Obviously it's so and now
it's like, who do you want? No one. I don't
think anyone was directly asking me this, but the subtext
was who would you like to be perceived as? Or
what would you like to stand for? And I not
(31:02):
in a bad way people want to know they were.
They're like, let me help you with this narratives of Ultimately,
that's literally a PR person, a publicist. It's public relations,
and it's how you're relating to the public and how
they're going to perceive you. And I think I didn't
really have an answer to that. And I was also
(31:23):
playing this very seemingly perfect I quite literally the girl
next door and playing this girl with energy. I say
that because I'm chronically fatigued all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, seven years on a series will do that to you.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Well yeah, but I think just to me, I've since
I was so young, have dealt with anxiety and depression,
and then as I got older, getting diagnosed with add
and then PTSD and then OCD. It's like, I mean,
the list goes on, and I think, I don't want
(32:05):
to be someone who talks about this chapter of my
life once it's over. I don't think that really helps people.
And I think I'm in it now. I've talked about
this stuff for a while now, so it's like I
might as well keep helping if I can, and to
be in the position that I'm in now where people
(32:27):
may see, oh, look at this great success you've had,
and I go, yes, But also, I'm going to be
real with you, and I'm not going to come back
and talk about how hard this chapter was once it's over,
because first of all, what if it's never over, and
what if I continue to struggle in the ways that
I struggle mentally? Okay, So I don't want to just
(32:49):
put my authenticity or openness about my life and my
experiences on hold until I feel better. I just don't
think that's helping anyone. And ultimately, if I'm going to
I don't want to say suffer because that never feels
like the right word. But struggle with challenges that millions
(33:10):
of other people face, but I get the opportunity to
do it in a more public sphere and maybe in
a way that people really call, people really call into
question how do you feel that way? And that was
really difficult for me when I first was stepping into
the spotlight and having people basically tell me that I
(33:32):
didn't have a right to feel.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And now a word from our sponsors, the idea that
you are supposed to wait until you feel better and
then reflect on your experience in a way suggests that
(33:56):
you need fixing and you don't need fixing, or.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
That you need to be quiet until your problems are solved,
or in the public eye that unless you have an
answer to give people as to how you came out
of it, best just keep your mouth shut. And I'm
the type of person who thinks, well, to me, it's helpful.
(34:22):
It's not fully helpful for me to see someone getting
a golden globe and saying keep going, don't give up.
I'm like, well, yeah, because you're receiving an award now,
and it's like, but how did you feel when you
had to convince yourself to keep going? And I think
(34:47):
that's way more helpful to someone like me who I
find it inspiring when people open up about their struggles
as they're happening, and to be able to know, Wow,
this person's like really reflecting on their life and being
(35:09):
open with the challenges that they're facing now, not what
they were facing, which is important, but ultimately I think
it just helps you connect to this is a big word,
but humanity better because you're saying I'm in it now,
I'm struggling now, even if I don't have an answer
(35:31):
to give you guys on what to do or how
I'm going to get out of this just to let
people know that I'm still struggling with XYZ. I think
sometimes is enough to make people go, oh, okay, well
maybe that makes me feel better to know that someone
(35:51):
who I think maybe has all these things. And I
would be happy if I had all these things, because ultimately,
and this is the whole point is it's not what
you have. The most successful person in the world, whoever
you want to think of that what success looks like.
(36:12):
I'm pretty one hundred percent positive that person struggles and
whatever your idea of success is someone who has that struggles.
So why do they struggle when they have the things?
Because it's not about externally having things. It's I could
(36:32):
get and I've realized this, I could get everything I'm
looking for in my career because career is a big,
hard stress thing for me, and I could say, Okay,
I could get the thing that I'm for. But if
(36:52):
I got if I got that thing tomorrow, I don't
think I would be happy still, Like, I don't think
it would just solve every problem because ultimately the issue
is internally, yeah, what I'm going through. So giving someone
(37:12):
an award, I'm just using awards as an example, because
it's like the most clear view of here's success. I'm
here around and it's a trophy. It's like a literal
trophy of success, and I think a lot of people
view that as success. So that's just sort of where
I'm coming from. But I think, yeah, I guess my
(37:35):
whole point is I need to deal with what's going
on on the inside that's making me unable to be
happy with the success that I have now, because ultimately,
even if I do keep climbing this ladder and reaching
more success, I won't be able. I'll still just want
to keep climbing the ladder and wanting war. So when
isn't enough and you have to be able to receive
(38:00):
and receiving something is challenging because I feel, again it's
like an external usually an external accolade or an achievement
or something externally validating. But ultimately your insides have to
(38:22):
match up with that frequency of validation. And if inside
you're still going, oh I don't deserve this, or oh
I can do better or whatever whatever, it's not going
to land and you're not going to be able to
accept it. And I want to be in a position
where any amount of success could come my way and
(38:42):
I can go, oh, I'm happy with this, and I
can receive this because I'm resolute in my inner work.
I guess I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I think it's really important, particularly as you said, in
a career and in an ecosystem inclusive of the world
of social media and the business of entertainment. It's so
important to figure out how to like your life instead
(39:15):
of be constantly worried about what you're not doing. Yeah,
and it's not easy, but to get to to get
to a point where you realize that that is part
of the work. Yeah, I think enables you to begin
to widen your periphery and have a healthier experience with
(39:37):
your life in general.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Well so yeah, So, like I'm saying this all now
having not reached that point.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Yeah, Oh I'm not either, by the way, So yeah,
but I but that's important to yeah, to emphasize because
I don't I don't have the answer, and I haven't
and I'm working on it.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
You could say I'm a work in progress. Hey, hey,
but ultimately I don't have the answer, and I think
it's something that is a journey. They say life is
a journey, and apparently it is because you're just constantly
evolving as you should be. And I don't think this
(40:17):
feeling that I'm striving for this sort of I guess
you'd call it inner peace, or the ability to receive,
or the ability to see my success as enough. I
don't have that yet, and I am working on it,
and I'm sure i'll be working on it until the
day I don't. But at least if I can keep
(40:40):
chipping away at it and keep climbing that ladder of
achieving that feeling, that's what's important. I don't have to.
You could tell me you'll never fully get there. I'll go, Okay,
well that sucks, But at least I'll know that forever
I will be trying to feel that piece with my self.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
And then you know that you're spending a certain amount
of time practicing gratitude, being introspective, being willing to self interrogate.
You're not just pac manning around the world. You're in
the emotional kind of fiber of it, and that I
(41:20):
think is a really noble pursuit, you know, for ourselves,
but also for the kind of imprint you want to
leave on the world around you.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Well, to me, my thought is Isn't that the whole point?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I think so, because I.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Think the whole point and for me is this is
a soul's journey, it's not our body's journey. And to me,
I'm like, I'm on this lifetime to level up. I
want to become more conscious and raise my consciousness and
be aware and be someone that people can live up
(42:00):
to as a mentor. And I want to be like
the old wise grandmother. I want that, and I think
so in order to achieve that, I've got to keep
showing and I've got to keep doing this work and
I plan on it, and to me, that's so much more.
That's so much more of a successful life if I
(42:21):
can focus on the internal things than anything external that
is also temporary and fleeting and ultimately, whatever you believe,
if you believe, and I still don't necessarily know what
I believe, but if I think that my soul is
going to continue on into another lifetime, that I'll have,
(42:44):
like as I say, leveled up in a way, and
I can enter this next life with a even higher
consciousness and then even more And again I don't know,
I'm still figuring out what I believe so far as
reincarnation is a scary word, and I don't know if
I like that word, but that's more so, I think
I like the idea that your soul is kind of
(43:05):
just on this forever journey, that even when you aren't
here anymore, when your body isn't here, your consciousness keeps going.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And I have a book for you. I'm gonna I'm
going to send you a book.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
What is it? What is it?
Speaker 1 (43:23):
I'll offline you about it, but yeah, I've got to
send it to you.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
I'm a big I'm a big self help book person's
spirituality book person.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
What excites me about it is it's because when you
said that, you know, the word feels scary, I'm like,
I get it. It's why sometimes when the emotion feels
big for me, I need to lean into the data
or the science. And I think, you know, just some
of the laws of physics, you know, energy ones created
can never be destroyed, so I can lean on the
scientific idea. And this book is a sort of merger
(43:56):
of scientific research and spiritual theory, and it's I'm going
to send it to you, and I'm excited about it.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
I love spirituality books and all that stuff, so I'm
very inteh.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
I just love the I love learning about us and
I it might seem like a weird left turn, but
I'm thinking about it because of the way that you
want to pursue meaning. And you've talked about mental health certainly,
and you've also talked about the pressure that comes for women,
(44:27):
but really all I think all young people because of
social media and then the expectations, particularly that get put
on us when we're on camera. You know, you've spoken
about body dysmorphia, you've spoken about acne, and now you've
found it a skincare line. And I actually feel, and
(44:48):
I guess this is my question, it feels to me
like you are figuring out a way not just to
like do a beauty product, but to really lean into
this space of personal identity and self acceptance that you
struggle with. It feels to me like you thought you've
(45:09):
thought to yourself, I really struggle with this, and I
know so many other young women struggle with this, and
other young people struggle with this, and maybe if I
solve a problem for myself, I can help other people
solve a problem for them.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Pretty dead on, I think that analysis because because I
when I'm struggling with something, and I think this is where,
to be honest, the openness about my mental health started.
Was when I'm struggling with something, I need to share
that because then that's how I connect with people, and
(45:45):
that's how I feel seen.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Well, you feel less alone, right, yeah, of course.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
And I think ultimately when you're struggling, you just want
to feel less alone. That's why we see a therapist
to be like, tell me I'm not alone, and they're like,
I see plenty of it. Yeah, it's like you're not
alone ever. But I think I started sharing because I
was struggling with acne and my body image and my
(46:12):
depression and my anxiety, and and then I just was
received a lot of encouragement when I did that, which
is amazing and sort of encouraged me to just keep
being this open book at least when it comes to
these facets of my life. So I was just pretty
(46:35):
I mean again, I also had people telling me you
don't have a right to feel anxiety, which is the
craziest thing I've ever heard, that I don't have. The
body image thing was hard and telling, you know, people
telling me I don't have a right to feel a
certain way about my body because I look a certain way.
(46:55):
It's it's I understand. But ultimately this is where advocting
steps in. And you have no idea how someone looks
at themselves. And I've seen, I'm sure you've seen some
of the most beautiful people in the world have the
biggest self esteem issues. Yes, And so ultimately you just
(47:15):
have no idea what you think is an ideal beauty.
Someone has that and they aren't happy with it. Yeah,
And for acne in particular, I stepped into this space
where you're not supposed to have that, and people around
me didn't really have it. Of course, always like the
(47:37):
guys always have overren skin and it's annoying. But the women,
you know, we're dealing with hormonal acne and the way
more makeup than all these things. Yeah. And I have
had acne just since I was twelve and thirteen, and
it was like manageable acne and then as I but
(47:57):
even when I would get this reoccurring assist in the
middle of my forehead, which is this bitch is back again.
And I remember really hating that my school didn't let
us wear hats because I thought to myself, if only
could wear a beanie and pull this thing down over
my forehead so no one would see this, or if
(48:19):
we just turned these fluorescent, awful lights off, maybe no
one would notice this crater on my forehead. And so
I'm very familiar with the feeling of acne in everyday
life and what it can do to you mentally. But
then I've also experienced the exacerbated version when I'm literally
(48:40):
in front of a camera with said acne on my
face and people are literally staring at a screen watching me,
and the paranoia around that, and I think I felt
really called to because again, I'm like, everything kind of
stems from me wanting to. It's not selfish by any means,
(49:04):
but I'm like, ultimately, I'm trying to help myself still
as well by helping other people so we can all
collectively feel better because I want to feel better too.
I still have acne, and I want these products that
are not going to trigger my acne. So I know
that people who have the same issues as I do
(49:27):
want that as well. But also important to note that
even people who don't have acne and don't deal with this,
you want good quality skincare that's not irritating you. Causing
any damage that maybe you're not superficially seeing. You want
things that aren't stuffed with bad filler ingredients. You just
that's also not going to be one hundred dollars. I
(49:51):
just think I'm sure we get sent pr boxes of crap,
and I in the beginning of my career was like, oh,
hell yeah, I'm being sent skincare line after skincare line.
I'm going to put this on my face and I
absolutely destroyed my skin because I was just trying everything.
(50:12):
And I think ultimately I wanted to create a line
for anyone, but for with actbi prone and sensitive skin
people in mind that they could trust, they could fully
trust a skincare line that wasn't going to make things worse. Yes,
and to be a safe haven, if you will, And
(50:35):
to know that I can top to bottom go to
this personal day line and know that if I purchase something,
it's going to be free of these bad ingredients.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. I
think people often forget we're so pressured to have our
skin look a certain way that we forget that our
skin is our body's largest organ. You know, would you
(51:11):
be like dumping chemical agents on top of your liver
all day. No, so you don't want to do it
with your skin either, And I think it's I think
it's very cool that you lasered in on an area
of personal struggle, understood the larger struggle of that area
for so many people, and then said I think I
(51:32):
can help fix this and maybe do it more holistically
and more kindly. And some of the other folks out
there are doing it, and I think it's very very cool.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Thank you. I think ultimately I I don't at the
end of the day, this job, as much as people
would like to tell me that I don't have a
right to say, is stressful. Is incredibly stressful and hard.
And unless you're in that position, you can't make that judgment.
You just can't. And if I'm gonna be in a
(52:13):
career that's very stressful. If I have the privilege and
opportunity to help other people, absolutely, And I never ever
wanted to put my face or name on something. My
name isn't even on the brand that created intentionally because
if people are saying, hey, do you want to create something,
(52:35):
I'm going to go, okay, Well, it has to help people.
And also I would love for people to not even
know that I'm attached to it, because that's how effective
the products need to be. Yes, because I can't would
I mean, it would be very embarrassing to make promise
that made people's skin worse or caused reactions. And it's
been like every day I'm receiving a text message now
(52:58):
because the line's been out since the end of October,
people who have been using the line for a month now,
who are texting me going, I'm getting complimented on my
skin for the first time in my life, and that
is I just think, Okay, that's why I'm doing this,
because I not for truly any other reason than I
(53:19):
also wanted this line of like safe skincare, but to
help other people in the process. I that has been
the most fulfilling. It really is like to receive a
text message from people saying my skin is changing because
of these products. I just know and deeply empathize with
(53:44):
how bad a breakout I make you feel. And to
feel that something is in the world now that people
are it's positively impacting the way that they're viewing their
face when they wake up in the morning is ultimately
very very good for my so I think you feel
very I feel very warm warm about it. I love that,
(54:05):
which is like that's the goal. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Absolutely, it makes me think about and I don't even
remember where I said it. I feel like you always
have your best moment of brilliance when you're not paying
attention to yourself. And at some point I was talking
about advice I wanted to give to my younger self,
and I said that I wanted to say to her,
you are allowed to be a masterpiece and a work
(54:29):
in progress simultaneously. And I think what you're talking about
is exactly that kind of energy where you are trying
to be your best self and also make room for
the process of being a human. At the same time,
you want to have gratitude for everything you've done and
still have goals. You want to be able to relish
(54:50):
in where you are today and still dream about your future.
You know, it's the tension of the both, and I
think when you lean into it and choose to be
introspective can be so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah, and it takes the pressure off, I think, to
remind yourself that you are an ever evolving person and yes,
you've got you've got time to grow and to change
you've got I mean hopefully, but I hope so metaphorically
even you've got, you've got time and space to do it.
(55:25):
And you don't need to be the best version of
yourself by the time you're thirty or by the time
you're whatever. I just think to remind it's a gentle
We all need that gentle reminder of you are really
that ever evolving thing, and that's what life is literally about.
(55:50):
So stop trying to stop trying to meet the deadline.
There is no deadline of that. It's the whole life's journey.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
When you think about that sort of ethos, Is there
something and it can be professional or personal, or maybe
it's a mix of both. Is there something as you
look ahead at the new year that's about to start
that really feels like your work in progress right now?
Speaker 3 (56:13):
I think lately it's giving myself grace and giving others
grace and kind of understanding what that actually means. But
to me, I think it's the big one for me
has been comparison is the thief of joy, yes, and
(56:34):
again that's the social media of it all. Does not help,
but to be happy for others when they get their flowers,
which is a phrase that I really like, and knowing
that there's space for everyone to have that. And I
think we're just in this industry that hammers into this
(56:59):
competition and if you're not at this certain peak of
your success by this certain time, that you've missed the
boat or that. I think that something that a lot
of people can relate to is obviously you're watching everyone's
lives on social media, and so you're comparing yourself to
(57:20):
people who have what you want, and if you're not
seeing yourself getting it anytime soon, or if you feel that, oh,
that's so far away from me, or I'll never achieve that,
I think the comparison if you took away if you
sat with yourself and took away everybody else's success and
sat with your own and were able to focus on
(57:43):
how far you've come and what you've achieved without measuring
it against other people, yes, I think your satisfaction would
be exponentially higher. And so giving myself grace because I
know that I'm literally living in a way world that
tells me to compare myself to every person that I see.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
All the time, and it's horrible.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Yes, Like it's like, just remind yourself of that. That's
kind of what that's just what you need give you,
give yourself the grace of knowing that that is the
world that you're in. And so it's understandable that you
feel these things. And I think I've had to just
give myself a break and saying yeah, like we get it, Yeah,
(58:30):
I get it. I can look at my problems and go, yeah,
it makes sense why I feel that way, and then
going okay, well, let's try to eliminate then the factors
of maybe let's be on social media less. Maybe let's
remind ourselves of this phrase, like everyone has room to
(58:51):
have their flowers, Let people have that, Let people have
their thing, and don't be angry or jealous or covet
what other people have. No one is taking away what
you could have by getting by getting what they have.
No one's taking anything away from you. Exactly. There's room
for all of us. It's a big planet, it's a
(59:12):
big world. Yep, there's room for us all. And I
think that, to me is a big thing. That's in
the last half of this year I've been landing on
and so I will be carrying that with me into
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
I love that I think that's really wonderful.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Thanks, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
I also, I kind of think that this making space
for that truth and realizing that the narrative that there
isn't enough, the idea that scarcity is somehow our destiny
as humans. I just think that's one of those lies
the patriarchy tells us. So when we are trying to
(59:55):
create a more holistic human experience and lean particularly think
into generational wisdom, the generational wisdom of women, it's like, oh,
we're not we're not doing the scarcity thing that those
guys in power told us.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Well, it's the phrase you're too much as a woman.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
No, ma'am, And we're not doing that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
That doesn't exist, and that's not bad.
Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
It's someone years ago, when I was we were into
the sort of real throes of our of our first
big show, said to me, you need to take any
person who's ever said to you you're intimidating, say no,
you're just intimidated. And I was like, oh, it makes
me feel so strong and powerful. So it's all all
(01:00:40):
those lessons I think that we can glean and you know,
take with us as we start figuring out how to
be these more human, more empathetic people are.
Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
That's a great thing. Whoever said that to you.
Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Right, it was really good and I was like, oh,
tattoo it on my soul.
Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
It's a perspective. It's just a perspective shift, like there's
nothing wrong with you. Maybe it's how the other person
is perceiving you that's wrong. Maybe maybe that may do that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much for joining me today.
You're just a jem.
Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Thank you, well, so are you. And I appreciate you
offering up a space in which people can feel safe
to talk about the things that are not easy. And
I think it's rare that people cultivate a space that
feels really safe and warm, and you do that really
(01:01:36):
so well and I and I appreciate that because sometimes
I walk away from podcasts thinking, oh, this is gonna
hurt me in some way, like this is gonna maybe backfire.
It's gonna maybe backfire. But I just think definitely not
the case here.
Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
So thank you. Yeah, to get to conversationally break bread
with people is a supreme privilege.
Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Uh, thanks for you doing you do it well. Yeah,
thank you for having me
Host
Sophia Bush
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