May 14, 2024 • 50 mins
Talented artist, director, and New York Times bestselling author Miranda July was "hell-bent on expressing" herself at a young age, so she made a path for herself encompassing multiple platforms.
Miranda joins Sophia to discuss her creative process, the inspiration behind some of her projects, and her latest book, "All Fours," which is getting rave reviews.
"All Fours" is available for purchase now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey
whips Martis. This week we are joined by an artist
who I admire so immensely. She is a film director,
(00:24):
a screenwriter and actress, an author, and her body of
work includes film, fiction, monologue, digital presentations, live performance art.
Today's guest is none other than Miranda July. She joins
us today to talk about her second novel, All Fours,
which she spent four years working on. Miranda's here to
tell us about the journey of collecting ideas and thoughts
(00:48):
and personal stories and how eventually she shaped them into
this beautiful book, by the way, while making a film. Yes,
she's that amazing. I can't wait to talk to her,
not only about the novel, but about her process as
an artist, because she manages to spin all of the
plates so beautifully and elegantly. Her work has certainly made
(01:11):
me feel incredibly seen. And today you'll even hear a
little anecdote about how one of her movies was an
early project that Hillary Burton and I bonded over in
our early days of filming One Tree Hill. Miranda has
really influenced me, and I know so many other artists
for nearly two decades now, and I just can't wait
to have this conversation with her. Enjoy well, Miranda, thank
(01:44):
you so much for joining me today. I'm such a
fan of your work and I think you have such
a beautifully unique voice. I have a million questions I
want to ask you about how you make art and
how you write and all the things. But before we
start on what's happening in your world, I really like
(02:04):
to rewind with people, because I think you know, fans,
audience members, they've met you where you are as an adult,
they read your books, they see you in film. But
I'm really curious if from this vantage point in your life,
if you were to sort of, you know, rewind the
movie and meet yourself at eight or nine years old,
(02:28):
would you now see a real through line or were
you a completely different kid when you were little?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Right now? I was this same kid. I yeah. I
mean my like big fantasy world back then, which was
sort of you know, kind of kids have all their
sort of survival mechanisms, and that was mine, you know,
(02:59):
because it is a adult world. Were all living in
a kids and I guess I feel like that only
got bigger and became like a bigger and bigger muscle.
But I can so remember even the specific fantasies that
I had, yeah at that age, I mean yeah, just
(03:19):
different sort of fixations and stuff. And it was very
kind of making worlds. I mean sometimes like a doll
house world, you know, literally, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Were you were you starting to write stories as a kid.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I remember having some pretensions in that area. I actually
still have the beginnings of a story in middle school,
you know, so I guess I wasn't a child prodigy
that was written with a fountain pen. You know. It
was like really helpful that the fountain pen was going
to do it, you know. I pushed me over the
(04:01):
edge of being able to somehow write a book. Didn't
get you know, even to the bottom of the page.
But I did start. In high school, I wrote and
directed my first play, and that I do actually consider
my first real work because I remember the feeling very clearly,
(04:22):
and it was the start of this feeling of a
feeling like I was hell bent on expressing myself and
I would die if I did it, you know, And
so I had to write a play to show what
was going on with me at the time. Not a
great play, it wasn't like, oh I'm so grate at this,
I have to continue. It was just more the feeling
(04:43):
of making it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, what was the story that felt like it had
to get out? Was it a like a theme you
wanted to express or something that felt really specific?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, it was specific. It was. I had started writing
to a man in prison when I was about fifteen,
and it was a long, intense relationship, not a romantic relationship.
Thank god. I was like a young feminist even then,
(05:20):
and when things started in that direction. I mean, this
man was you know, he was thirty eight, he'd been
in prison for a long time, you know, and I
wrote him out of the blue because there was a
list of prison pen pals. Anyways, the experience of that
(05:42):
was just so aliening. I mean, really, there was no
other kid I could talk to about like prison life,
and I think I wanted to show what that was
like for me, and also I tried to show what
it was like for him to be relating to this
like teenage girl you know, was fine, you know, who
didn't really have any problems in a sense. Yeah, so
(06:07):
it was called the Lifers.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Why do you think, I guess I'm curious because I've
I don't know. I find myself drawn to people and
their stories into the things that are often I think
uncomfortable societally, and whether that's you know, excavating why we
behave the way we do to others, or even prison
(06:35):
visits myself with folks who don't often get you know, visited,
spoken to people concerned about their well being. And I
think about you finding that list at seventeen, What do
you think made you curious as a teenager about that
person and that life?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, I mean to be honest there, Yes, well, I
think there was empathy and involved for sure, like I
really felt his loneliness. I also think there was a
kind of uh like daredevil something to it, like a
(07:19):
sort of like and in a kind of like deep way,
like the sense of risk, Like I still have that
in me, like a sense of like, well, no one's
going to do this, so I will, and and that
is almost like a reason to do it and and
(07:40):
and for good. I mean, not no one's gonna, you know,
choose something terrible like I. You know, there is a
kind of like mission to serve, you know. I think
I tend to get almost a little frozen or paralyzed
unless the risk level is pretty high, you know, and
then suddenly I'm like all in.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, middle ground is not like an easy space for me.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, oh, I understand that. It makes me think of
something that I read when you were writing about the
zine that you and your friends worked on, Snarla. You
talked about how it had a punk aesthetic even though
you guys didn't come from punk bands. You were writers. Yea,
and there is something deeply punk about leaning into risky
(08:27):
spaces and doing things that might be considered radical but
are also actually rooted in love or art or service.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, No, you've exactly nailed it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Do you think the risk goes hand in hand with
feeling creatively free? Like, is it like an energetic thing
that pushes you off the ledge into a project.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, that's such a good way to put it. It's
like here where everyone else is, you know, I'm kind
of trapped, and then if I'm out on a limb, essentially, well,
one good thing about being out on a limb is
there's a lot of room out there. I mean, you
might fall, but you're also kind of free, and it's
(09:19):
almost like sort of the illusion of flying, you know,
or something like being not quite sure what's holding you up,
but curious, like really wanting to wanting to know, you know,
like a real It's very kind of like constant beginner's
mode in a way, you know, And I think, yeah,
(09:41):
for you know, at this point, I'm fifty, I mean
I was a teenager that, so I've been doing this
now for a long time, but that that newness just
stays if the risk level keeps getting upped.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah. I think about that a lot in terms of
what we do. You know, in a way, it feels
to me like it's like a constant first day of school.
Every time you start a new project. You're in a
new place, new people, new sort of artistic language you
(10:17):
have to learn. And I giggle with some of my
other friends who do this. I'm like, wow, we're really
we really sign up to torture ourselves forever. But it's
like if if you love to tell stories, you just
can't help it.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, and you kind of like see yourself a
new like in those circumstances and in talking to strangers
and people you know have different stories and you and stuff.
It's like you're not in your lane exactly. You know,
(10:52):
you're familiar lane, and and so you realize that everything
about you doesn't it doesn't just go without saying. You know,
if you are just around your friends, it's kind of
like seamless. So I think maybe that's part of the
thrill too. Like you, you understand what's specific about you
(11:13):
again and again and maybe get more and more comfortable
with that.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I love that. So from this this point, you know,
you talk about how you've been doing this a long time.
Who do you think are some of your biggest creative influences,
you know, what inspires you to push yourself to these
edges over and over again?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Mm hmm. I think it's often people in my life really,
so they're not going to be like names people know
of necessarily, but it's you know, I often have always
have like a really close woman friend who is also
(11:53):
taking risks, who I am in conversation with, you know,
a in a ongoing you know, weekly sometimes daily way.
And that's it's been that way since I was a
little girl. And it's not you know, friend changes, and
I accumulate friends. I don't tend to discard them, so
you know, it's now like a pool of women, and
(12:19):
then occasionally, like some woman you meet in passing, you know,
that kind of weird intimacy that can happen with like
a woman stranger, Like you're at a party or some
sort of work event or something, and they're just like
a look at each other's eyes, like you're both kind
of looking into the abyss, even though you're in this
(12:39):
maybe more formal setting, and you just exchange like the quickest,
most honest conversation anyone could possibly have in like fourteen seconds,
like are you feeling this? I'm feeling this. Okay, good,
we're both feeling this. We'll carry on, you know. And
that too, is there's something really radical about that to me,
(12:59):
like that sort of underground network or something.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, so it's not only about these like best friends.
There's like a a communal feeling too that that is
inspiring that. Yeah, that does push me further.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah too, especially in the environments you're talking about the
difference I think between being observed and being seen.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, right, that feels so difficult.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, and when someone really sees you and allows you
to really see them, that can be a really seismic
moment in what looks like a dinner party.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah I know, yeah, your own consciousness suddenly shifts and
you're like, oh, yeah, here I am.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It's really interesting you saying that makes me think about
one of my best friends who I grew up with
on my first TV show. We started our birthdays a
week apart. You know, we started this job like, I
don't know, eight days after we turned twenty one. We
had no fucking idea what we were doing. And you know,
(14:10):
it was this sort of duality of such a gift
because we wound up doing this TV show about kids
who wanted to talk about their feelings and it lasted
for almost a decade, and you know, who gets to
do a job for that long. But we were these angsty, little,
you know, girl artists who wanted to do really weird shit,
(14:31):
and you know, we were doing like high school sports.
And I remember the feeling for she and I we
knew we each had that, and she was a person
who really saw me and I really saw her. And
it's so cool to hear you tell a story that
makes me think about our first year working together, because
(14:52):
it was two thousand and three, and in two thousand
and five, when you made me, you and everyone we know,
she and I fell like we had the giddiness that
I remember seeing in older movies about like when a
boy would find his dad's playboys, like, we have found
something that maybe we're not supposed to have, and should
(15:16):
we like sneak into the attic to watch it together
because you just like you, you allowed for quiet and
quirk and introspection and like all the shit you don't
get to do on a teen TV show, and we
were just like, we want to be.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Artists like this. Well I would have been so thrilled
at the time. It would have been like I've made it,
I've done my work. Care is done.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
No, it was like, really, it was just such a
cool thing because yeah, we we felt like we had
discovered this new option for how you could tell stories.
And you know, we were kids, so we definitely were
in a face of like, oh, what old classic movies
have you seen? Like trying to coolure and then here
(16:04):
was this movie that had just been made and we'd
never seen anything like it. And so even though we
hadn't met until today, you and I I do have
to say thank you because.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You made like a pack of fairal.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Little animals working together in North Carolina feel very inspired
and seen.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Oh that's the best story, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah, my gosh. And I wonder about that, you know.
I I love making art. I love to sit with writers,
and I love to tell stories and get into like
why we do these things? Ask all the weird questions.
But you have managed to do so much of it,
(16:44):
which I imagine takes getting over some of the hurdles of
fear about can I do this? Can I make movies?
Can I act in them? Can I write them? Can
I also write novels and books? And you do so much?
And I know you talk about how risk can really
be an element of propulsion.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, there's more to it, I guess.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, there's so much to what you do. And all
of this stuff, from what I understand, can be you know, intense,
and it's very internal, and it can make you feel
a little crazy. It can make you feel lonely. How
how do you balance, you know, your your humanness with
(17:34):
your ability to create when you're in every seat at
the table making these projects.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, I mean one thing it also is is very
very comforting. It's a little like a security blanket. So
imagine each time that I feel out of sorts or
lost or broken hearted. You know, I don't know what
to do next that feeling when you're like you're dangling
(18:03):
in space, you know, like there's nothing holding you up,
and it's a terrible feeling. But I guess at this
point I know just to start writing and just describe
the feeling. And I'm trying to get it down in
a way that someone would be able to catch. Like
(18:24):
I'm throwing a ball and I want it caught. You know,
this isn't throwing it into nowhere. And I can kind
of feel when like, ah, I maybe just describe something
in a way that hasn't been described before, or thought
of a scene, you know, or something that will get
this across. And even though in the moment I'm still alone,
it's like I have a little piece of gold, and
(18:46):
that's the self soothing aspect. And then it it does
bring you into a future where you aren't alone, where
you're having this conversation. So I think it it enables discipline,
you know, like because a big part of it is
also just sitting in a chair instead of getting up
(19:10):
and or more accurately, like not going online, we should
say getting out for something issue. It's all on the computer.
And yeah, so that's the thing is knowing like, Okay,
this process is so deeply satisfying and interesting. If you
can just stick with it, it's a bigger reward then
(19:34):
you're going to get from the quick fix of almost
anything else. Yeah, I mean not, you know, And then
there's real relationships, you know. I think as I get older,
I do start to realize like it can't all be
the work, you know, like that is one relationship, but
then there's intimacy with another person, you know, all those
(19:57):
things still, you know that I in some ways feel
like I'm you know, figuring out the new Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
And now a word from our sponsors that I really
enjoy and I think you will too. It strikes me that,
you know, you push into these places with characters going
through things we haven't you know, really seen, whether it's
(20:29):
you know, what you did with the Metal Bowl or
or Kajillionaire, which I even think now, I'm like, oh
my god, you know that movie came out in twenty twenty.
That must have been such a wild sort of experience.
Like when you sit to create these worlds, do you
have a creative process that you like to stick to,
(20:51):
or is it different for every project, because each of
these projects is a different world.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, it's a little different for each project, and each
tragic you know, happens in a different time in my
life and in the world. But I guess in general
it begins with kind of just noticing what's interesting to
me and religiously putting those things in a file, you know,
(21:22):
so just to file life, just to be practical here
in case it's he's told anyone like I used ever
note and I'll just like, for example, from my last novel,
I just didn't know anything about it yet I called
it novel too, you know, my second novel, And and
just things i'd think of or over here or conversations
(21:44):
i'd have, I just put it in the folder, no judgment,
no idea what this is going to be. I was
working on Kajillionaire, that movie at the time, so there
was really no pressure, right, barely time to think about
novel two. But occasionally there would be something that didn't
really have a place in the project I was working on,
and felt more like a future thing I was curious about.
(22:07):
And then you look back, and I mean in the
case of novel two, I finally had time to look
back through all those notes, and I was like, huh, aging,
femininity and aging, like the body, marriage, like all these perimenopause,
(22:28):
like all these things that I was like, huh, okay,
there's no story yet, but these are pretty deep themes,
you know, and sort of yeah, I don't know, just
just to use that as an example. So often it
is like being as loose as possible about it at
the beginning, because you kind of want to be like
a kindly kindergarten teacher, you know, who's just like, yes,
(22:50):
it's all great, yes, you know, would never be like
judgmental of anything. So I sort of try and be
that to myself for as long as possible and then
kind of get more rigorous about it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
That's really cool. It reminds me of a really good
piece of advice I got years ago, having to work
on a project and portray a person whose behavior I
was really conflicted about, and a friend of mine, you know,
who's a great, great actor and storyteller, who is you know,
(23:27):
sort of in the not age range of my parents,
but like like the cool like an everybody wants to
have kind of vibe in the span of all my
intergenerational friendships. She was like, no matter what, you can't
judge your characters, right, you have to figure out a
way to love this person. And if you can love someone,
(23:52):
the thing I took away was like, if I can
love someone more the more fucked up they are, won't
that be an interesting relationship to learn how to cultivate?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah? Yeah, I love I.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Love that idea that As a writer, you were like, no, no,
first first round of collection. I can't judge any of it.
I can't worry if it's important or whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, exactly, I just have to be with it. Yeah, yeah, right,
because there is usually that repulsion too, whether it's about
what you're writing or someone else their character. There's something
in you that worries. You're like that too, you know,
or that this is all of you, this this idea,
(24:34):
and so it's usually striking some nerve. That's that's pretty
useful for what we do.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
How how when you when you think about the the
narrowing down process to get into or I really I
really guess get from you know the folder labeled novel
two to the book all fours? How how do you
begin to narrow and shape a story? And did it
(25:05):
feel easier because it was your second novel, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I felt second novel and making the movies like I did,
feel like I had some muscles and I knew how
to tell a story. And really now it was more
like like less about finding a great story and I
somehow this it began with this kind of romance. I
(25:34):
knew that there'd be this romance at the beginning, and
I was excited to capture that kind of drugged out
someone's under your skin state and figure out what was
it doing in the folder with with you know, aging
and perimenopause and all this stuff. You know, it was
like how do I what is this all going to be?
(25:55):
But I that kind of propelled me and there is
a certain amount of uh like discovery on the way.
And I think for this book most importantly conversations with
other women like I I in the past, I've really
been able to make a whole world just born out
of my brain pretty well, and this one I just
(26:18):
knew because of those topics. I was like, I just
got to talk to everyone, got to talk to women
older than me who you know, are looking back at
this time, because this really was a book about this
middle time in a life, like you're in the middle
and talk to gynecologists and talk to you know, talk
(26:40):
to just like learn stuff, load up on kind of information,
and then kind of let it go. Because my narrator
doesn't you know, she's not a doctor. She only cares
about changes in her body to the degree that they
affect her desires and plans for herself, you know, which
is kind of how we are, right. I mean, we
(27:03):
we only look at the things on the like web
md list that you know, might fuck with the plan
we have, you know. Everything else is like you know
gray bars.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. I like, I like that
idea that you have to learn everything and then pull
it back and let it just be an influence and
not necessarily make space for every detail or every fact
to wind up on the page.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah. Yeah, because the nice thing about what we do
is that there is a story, and there is like
it's juicy, and it's it's surprising, and they're you know,
like we can hook people in, you know in a
way that's that's you know, like an altered state almost,
(27:55):
And so if you do feel like you have something
to say, like what a lucky way to get to
do it, you know, like through this sort of pleasure.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's deeply cool. You've talked about the process,
and I've also read some of the other interviews, and
you've talked about how the book is really close to you.
How would you describe the book? How do you tell
people what the novel's about? For the folks at home
who are going to go get it this week but
haven't read it yet.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Oh yeah, I mean, ostensibly, it's about a woman who
sets out on a road trip to drive from LA
to New York, and you know, says goodbye or dramatically
to her husband and child, and then she ends up
(28:46):
at a motel twenty minutes away from home and still
calls in and reports on where she is at the
various points across the country, but just stays in the
motel twenty minutes away the whole time. She's so free
driving and in New York and what happens there sort of,
(29:10):
I mean, that's where the romance that I was talking
about happens. And it means that when she returns, which
only takes twenty minutes, but she has to pretend that
she's much more exhausted than that. But when she returns,
it really is as if from an incredible journey and
(29:31):
she no longer fits back into her life, and so
this kind of bends her life, which she loves very much.
I mean, she doesn't want It's not a story really
about someone blowing up their life but also not wanting
to smoothly slip back into the domestic setting again. And
(29:55):
it's really, as I said, a book about midlife. So
it's it's trying to look at all these things that
exist in this mapless place like we're so I mean,
you and I have mostly been young women. That's that's
been our whole experience thus far. And it lasts for
(30:20):
pretty long for a woman, because you know, they just
keep wanting you to be a young woman for as
long as possible. And while men your age might have
already like sort of become like thority figures, you're like
somehow still young. And and then it flips like kind
of abruptly, like I found it to be like, oh wait,
(30:44):
now I'm suddenly old, and all the involvement and all
the representation and and and to some degree over involvement,
like in our reproductive systems stops. It just stops, and
you're actually kind of hunting for basic information about what
happens next, both in your body and just a story,
(31:11):
just a song or some kind of you know what
I mean, some sort of like inspiring, relatable tale that
kind of gives you a pathward the way you had
so many you know, leading to midlife. And so this
book hopes to be that. I mean, it's the book
(31:32):
I wanted when I was forty five and just starting
to write it.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's really beautiful. Is that sort of a surreal thing
to realize on the other side of it as it's
being born out into the world, that that in a
way you had to create it because it just wasn't there.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, I mean, I'll say that it it was. I
was very nervous when I started because I well, for
one thing, I was gonna be outing myself as to
my specific age, which you know, even if I mean
I'm a total feminist, I didn't plan on like lying
(32:18):
about my age. But I at the same time was like, huh,
what's going to be the loss of that to be
like getting into like quote unquote icky stuff around, you know,
Like wouldn't I rather just sort of be graceful about
it and sort of keep it like who knows how
(32:41):
old she really is for as long as possible. And
then I was like, well, I'm not sure what the like.
The reward for that, I guess is is as you
get older, you're sort of ignored less meanly, which didn't
seem like a huge reward. And then I thought, well,
(33:03):
the reward for writing the book would be this conversation
with other women. And I think I can kind of
get through anything and even enjoy anything if I have
that conversation. And I think given that the book was
written essentially in conversation with so many women and has
(33:23):
so many women's kind of voices in there, as you know,
the narrator's friends and you know, whole world, I was
placing all my bets on that working out for me
and having that on the other end, and it's it's
working out, Like I am having that conversation and it's
(33:47):
just beginning, but it's I want to go back and
tell that woman sitting at her desk for four years,
like just keep going. I guess I am. I guess
I did somehow go back and tell her because here
I am.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah. And now for our sponsors, and have there been
moments you've had in conversation with other women where you go, ah,
like this is one of the gems I pick up
here and this has a little nugget here. What do
you what do you feel like you've collected from that
conversational experience.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I mean, one thing is just uh talking to other
mothers married to men as I was at the time,
but mother's married to really anyone, because I just think
the institution of marriage holds a lot with it regardless
(34:53):
of who you're marrying. A we're often the conversation often
was like, is this level of kind of sacrifice at
a soul at a soul level, is this degree of
(35:13):
that an indication of our goodness and the profoundness of
what we're doing here? Or is there maybe something kind
of off about all this? And then the the really
clear thing to me was that we were too exhausted
(35:36):
and already feeling guilty about ten million things to hold
the thread of that thought, you know, because it's like
easy to feel sort of alone in a marriage or
as a mother, and then there's just something else to
do next after you have that feeling that you've got
to do responsibility wise, and so you're not going to
(35:59):
lie start a revolution off that one moment right, You're
not going to radically change something in your life off
that one moment. But what if I, because it's literally
my job, collected all those moments and held the thread
and just tried to connect them all together, just on
(36:20):
the off chance that this is actually something that we
keep dismissing. But actually we're all dismissing it. And so
maybe that's not just a nagging feeling that you know
that should be pushed down. But yeah, you know, so
I tried. I tried in the book to hold that
(36:43):
thread as like holding a grain of sand for four
years and believing it was valuable.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Well, it strikes me as how powerful an idea and
honestly of permissions of sorts to look at your feelings
and the feelings of all these other women and say, hey,
that knocking your experiencing isn't a sign of your unworthiness
(37:12):
or your lack of capability to make it all work.
It might be an indicator that you have settled for
less than you deserve. It might be a calling to
open the door and see what's on the other side, right.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, And it might be an indication that there's something
not right with the world or the structure that you're in,
you know, rather than you like you're fitting into something
that is genuinely uncomfortable, you know, like a box that
doesn't fit you.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, you get so conditioned to do it. Yeah, and
then you know, wild things happen, like a pandemic or
you know the summer of twenty twenty three where like
everyone got divorced. Yeah, and you go, oh, okay, there's
something happening here. And I think I think sometimes it's
(38:07):
not a coincidence that it big shifts like that happen
in such large groups. You know, such a large percentage
of people will make you know, whether it's that Summer
of twenty twenty three shift or you know, shifts in
their work life. You know, people got sent home from
their offices and then change their whole lives. And you know,
(38:29):
more women than ever started small businesses. And I think
there can be terror, I'm sure, but you know freedom
when you claim your right to change.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, yeah, and how you want to do it, and
that it doesn't have to look like the way someone
else changed.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah, does it feel? Because I think it's so beautiful
when you talk about how personal these stories are and
how you can see yourself and all these other women
in your life in a novel like this. But I
know you know, you talked about how the Metal Bowl,
the short story for Our Friends at Home, It was
(39:13):
published in The New Yorker in twenty seventeen. It's a
really incredible piece, and I think really pressing even in
twenty twenty four now that we're seeing a lot of
women experience the world of deep fake pornography on the internet.
It really examines you know, what happens when people recognize
(39:36):
you from something like that. And you talked about how
it wound up being this really harrowing experience for you
because you hadn't given the character enough detail that she
didn't feel very much like you. And I know you
can see yourself in this book. So is it important
(39:56):
to feel that or is it terrifying to feel that?
How do you think that connects across all these years.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, I think I like work where I can feel
the real woman behind it, and sometimes that's just total
fiction and she's just very alive and present. Sometimes that
is a sort of auto fiction where you get that
exciting feeling of you're like, this all really happened. I'm
(40:26):
too obsessed with like plot and characters to get anywhere
with that, you know, like part of the magic for
me is in making it up. I mean, for this
book is a little different because I didn't name the
character and I left her job kind of lose, so
you could map her on me, which I sort of do. Anyways,
(40:48):
I'm always flipping to the author photo and I'm like,
that's her, whether or not she looks anything like the
way the narrator was described. I just thought, well, give
that I have this weird life where I have been
in some of the movies that I've written, and given
that people love to conflate, especially women, with the narrator.
(41:11):
Instead of fighting against that and being like, she has
red hair, she's an architect, she you know, creating all
this fictional stuff, why don't I kind of be a
little generous and loan my character some things about me,
just basic things, nothing crazily specific, and then go ahead
(41:33):
and write the fiction and let people enjoy the weird
frision that comes from that, the energy. There's something that
we like in that, And given that I really want
to tell this story, like, I think that's to its benefit.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The potential for transference, I think gives
it it's like a little bit pixie dust, you know,
because it feels sparkly, it feels real. Yeah. Yeah, I
read that you have a rule that after you write
a book, you make a movie, or you try to
(42:13):
do vice versa. Is that true? Do you really try to,
you know, pluck yourself out of one thing and go
into a different medium to clean out your brain?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Well, I mean the thing is writing is kind of
the mainstay in both those things. It's it's the bedrock.
So I'm always writing. I'm even writing, you know what
I'm doing performance or or more art art. But there
is something about like maybe not sort of not wanting
(42:45):
to lose my membership in those worlds, not in a
career sense, but in a creative sense. It's like, well,
it takes a long time to write a book and
to make a movie, and if you do two movies
in a row, then you know where there is that
fiction writer soul, you know, And so it's a bit
of a I mean, if I could have two of me,
(43:08):
that would be cool. Yeah. I think maybe as I
get older, there merging a little bit. There's something so
like I somehow feel like I got a kind of
performance film thing into this book. I know it's just
a book. I understand that it's an object, but there's
(43:29):
a way in which I feel like there's an acceleration
or a merging. And so I'm curious. I'm not sure
if my next thing. I feel like somehow it'll be
everything and I won't have to choose. We'll see, I'll
get back to you.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, but there's that thing again of it's about
to be another first day at school, and that's so exciting,
I know.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
So you sit, you know, with this beautiful body of work,
and you know, as you mentioned, it's film, and there
are the books you've written, and the short stories you've
published and like very serious art. You've exhibited art with
curators out around the world. It's it's so inspiring for
(44:19):
someone like me, And I wonder for you, being you know,
the nucleus of this world, what feels like it's next
from this vantage point in this year, what would you
say is your work in progress?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
M I feel like I'm a total baby on relationships,
Like I that's my most work in progress side of myself.
And so I'm I feel like I'm making decisions in
(44:58):
a new way as to like where to put my
time what's valuable. You know. The goal used to always
be work, and I was like, well, you know, it's
all fine as long as I get my time to work,
which felt kind of like I was lucky in that respect,
you know, like what a lucky woman to get to
do her creative work. And now I I just see
(45:23):
that there was another side of me that was like
semi starving and like waiting its turn, you know, and
then like and now can't be like put back in
the box. So it's really interesting figuring out how to
do all this, and you know, and I've I should whatever.
(45:44):
I'm just had really wonderful formative relationships. But I feel
like I'm kind of present in a new way and
it's kind of psychedelic, Like it's kind of like like
sometimes I really am like did I did I eat
a gummy? Like no, I didn't, Like I'm I am
not tripping here, Like this is just like my brain
(46:08):
is expanding and I'm having new feelings and which is
funny because I kind of thought I was like sort
of an expert at intimacy and vulnerability, like that was
sort of my thing. So that's that's a great feeling. Actually,
(46:30):
to be like have that be the work in progress
and then have sort of the confidence that comes from
also knowing I can process all of that in my work.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah that's so special. Yeah, I don't know. I hear
so much of what you're talking about and the shift
at fifty and I I just know I had such
a big shift at forty really forty one like changed
my whole life. Yeah, and I always sort of felt,
well the way you're describing, like, oh, vulnerability is my thing.
(47:04):
Relationships are my thing, Like that's what I do. And
I've really begun to process the solitude or aloneness that
is required to make these projects, because you know, they
pull you out of your life. You go on the location,
you leave everything, and I'm like, oh man, I'm really
good at present intimacy, but like when I'm gone, I'm gone,
(47:28):
and it is it's like adding this whole new layer
into relationships in my life and also how I know myself.
And I'm like, WHOA. I looked at a friend of
mine the other day and I was like, you you
text a lot with everyone, Like what are you texting about?
What do people text about? Because this is what I do,
(47:49):
Like I sit, I want to talk, but like on
the phone with the typing, like what are you typing about?
And he just fell out of his chair laughing at me,
and I was like, no, but I mean it.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
When I read your text, I always and I always like,
I start getting the nervous feeling like is this gonna
last forever? This this back and forth? And then I
feel like when I put the heart on, that means done? Right?
Does that universally acknowledge? Like the heart is like I'm out,
but in a in a kind way, like a punctuation mark.
(48:21):
Not everyone reads it that way, though, No, No, I
gotta be careful with those hearts.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah, you gotta be careful with the hearts. I realize
I'm apparently a rare bird in the group because I
just FaceTime everyone. I'm like, if you're going to talk,
let's talk. I want to talk because the typing it
makes me so uncomfortable, and everyone's like, you're a boomer.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I'm like, I guess here we are. That's a very
that's kind of a power move, Sophia, to just FaceTime,
you know, to just there you are, there you are.
I'm sit in the cup holder.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Let's drive around the city and have a chat.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Oh. I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Maybe maybe that winds up being like a scene we
shoot some day.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good shot from the cup holder.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah, I really like it. Yeah. Well, thank you. It's
been so special to be able to ask you so
many questions, and they really have been a long time coming.
And I can't wait. I can't wait to tell Hillary
that I interviewed. She's going to lose to me.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, thank you so much, and good luck with the
book and everything. I know that our friends who have
enjoyed this at home as much as I have today
or are going to be hitting their local bookstores and
diving into this along with me and our whole little crew.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Thank you.
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey
whips Martis. This week we are joined by an artist
who I admire so immensely. She is a film director,
(00:24):
a screenwriter and actress, an author, and her body of
work includes film, fiction, monologue, digital presentations, live performance art.
Today's guest is none other than Miranda July. She joins
us today to talk about her second novel, All Fours,
which she spent four years working on. Miranda's here to
tell us about the journey of collecting ideas and thoughts
(00:48):
and personal stories and how eventually she shaped them into
this beautiful book, by the way, while making a film. Yes,
she's that amazing. I can't wait to talk to her,
not only about the novel, but about her process as
an artist, because she manages to spin all of the
plates so beautifully and elegantly. Her work has certainly made
(01:11):
me feel incredibly seen. And today you'll even hear a
little anecdote about how one of her movies was an
early project that Hillary Burton and I bonded over in
our early days of filming One Tree Hill. Miranda has
really influenced me, and I know so many other artists
for nearly two decades now, and I just can't wait
to have this conversation with her. Enjoy well, Miranda, thank
(01:44):
you so much for joining me today. I'm such a
fan of your work and I think you have such
a beautifully unique voice. I have a million questions I
want to ask you about how you make art and
how you write and all the things. But before we
start on what's happening in your world, I really like
(02:04):
to rewind with people, because I think you know, fans,
audience members, they've met you where you are as an adult,
they read your books, they see you in film. But
I'm really curious if from this vantage point in your life,
if you were to sort of, you know, rewind the
movie and meet yourself at eight or nine years old,
(02:28):
would you now see a real through line or were
you a completely different kid when you were little?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Right now? I was this same kid. I yeah. I
mean my like big fantasy world back then, which was
sort of you know, kind of kids have all their
sort of survival mechanisms, and that was mine, you know,
(02:59):
because it is a adult world. Were all living in
a kids and I guess I feel like that only
got bigger and became like a bigger and bigger muscle.
But I can so remember even the specific fantasies that
I had, yeah at that age, I mean yeah, just
(03:19):
different sort of fixations and stuff. And it was very
kind of making worlds. I mean sometimes like a doll
house world, you know, literally, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Were you were you starting to write stories as a kid.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I remember having some pretensions in that area. I actually
still have the beginnings of a story in middle school,
you know, so I guess I wasn't a child prodigy
that was written with a fountain pen. You know. It
was like really helpful that the fountain pen was going
to do it, you know. I pushed me over the
(04:01):
edge of being able to somehow write a book. Didn't
get you know, even to the bottom of the page.
But I did start. In high school, I wrote and
directed my first play, and that I do actually consider
my first real work because I remember the feeling very clearly,
(04:22):
and it was the start of this feeling of a
feeling like I was hell bent on expressing myself and
I would die if I did it, you know, And
so I had to write a play to show what
was going on with me at the time. Not a
great play, it wasn't like, oh I'm so grate at this,
I have to continue. It was just more the feeling
(04:43):
of making it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, what was the story that felt like it had
to get out? Was it a like a theme you
wanted to express or something that felt really specific?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, it was specific. It was. I had started writing
to a man in prison when I was about fifteen,
and it was a long, intense relationship, not a romantic relationship.
Thank god. I was like a young feminist even then,
(05:20):
and when things started in that direction. I mean, this
man was you know, he was thirty eight, he'd been
in prison for a long time, you know, and I
wrote him out of the blue because there was a
list of prison pen pals. Anyways, the experience of that
(05:42):
was just so aliening. I mean, really, there was no
other kid I could talk to about like prison life,
and I think I wanted to show what that was
like for me, and also I tried to show what
it was like for him to be relating to this
like teenage girl you know, was fine, you know, who
didn't really have any problems in a sense. Yeah, so
(06:07):
it was called the Lifers.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Why do you think, I guess I'm curious because I've
I don't know. I find myself drawn to people and
their stories into the things that are often I think
uncomfortable societally, and whether that's you know, excavating why we
behave the way we do to others, or even prison
(06:35):
visits myself with folks who don't often get you know, visited,
spoken to people concerned about their well being. And I
think about you finding that list at seventeen, What do
you think made you curious as a teenager about that
person and that life?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, I mean to be honest there, Yes, well, I
think there was empathy and involved for sure, like I
really felt his loneliness. I also think there was a
kind of uh like daredevil something to it, like a
(07:19):
sort of like and in a kind of like deep way,
like the sense of risk, Like I still have that
in me, like a sense of like, well, no one's
going to do this, so I will, and and that
is almost like a reason to do it and and
(07:40):
and for good. I mean, not no one's gonna, you know,
choose something terrible like I. You know, there is a
kind of like mission to serve, you know. I think
I tend to get almost a little frozen or paralyzed
unless the risk level is pretty high, you know, and
then suddenly I'm like all in.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, middle ground is not like an easy space for me.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, oh, I understand that. It makes me think of
something that I read when you were writing about the
zine that you and your friends worked on, Snarla. You
talked about how it had a punk aesthetic even though
you guys didn't come from punk bands. You were writers. Yea,
and there is something deeply punk about leaning into risky
(08:27):
spaces and doing things that might be considered radical but
are also actually rooted in love or art or service.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, No, you've exactly nailed it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Do you think the risk goes hand in hand with
feeling creatively free? Like, is it like an energetic thing
that pushes you off the ledge into a project.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, that's such a good way to put it. It's
like here where everyone else is, you know, I'm kind
of trapped, and then if I'm out on a limb, essentially, well,
one good thing about being out on a limb is
there's a lot of room out there. I mean, you
might fall, but you're also kind of free, and it's
(09:19):
almost like sort of the illusion of flying, you know,
or something like being not quite sure what's holding you up,
but curious, like really wanting to wanting to know, you know,
like a real It's very kind of like constant beginner's
mode in a way, you know, And I think, yeah,
(09:41):
for you know, at this point, I'm fifty, I mean
I was a teenager that, so I've been doing this
now for a long time, but that that newness just
stays if the risk level keeps getting upped.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah. I think about that a lot in terms of
what we do. You know, in a way, it feels
to me like it's like a constant first day of school.
Every time you start a new project. You're in a
new place, new people, new sort of artistic language you
(10:17):
have to learn. And I giggle with some of my
other friends who do this. I'm like, wow, we're really
we really sign up to torture ourselves forever. But it's
like if if you love to tell stories, you just
can't help it.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, and you kind of like see yourself a
new like in those circumstances and in talking to strangers
and people you know have different stories and you and stuff.
It's like you're not in your lane exactly. You know,
(10:52):
you're familiar lane, and and so you realize that everything
about you doesn't it doesn't just go without saying. You know,
if you are just around your friends, it's kind of
like seamless. So I think maybe that's part of the
thrill too. Like you, you understand what's specific about you
(11:13):
again and again and maybe get more and more comfortable
with that.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I love that. So from this this point, you know,
you talk about how you've been doing this a long time.
Who do you think are some of your biggest creative influences,
you know, what inspires you to push yourself to these
edges over and over again?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Mm hmm. I think it's often people in my life really,
so they're not going to be like names people know
of necessarily, but it's you know, I often have always
have like a really close woman friend who is also
(11:53):
taking risks, who I am in conversation with, you know,
a in a ongoing you know, weekly sometimes daily way.
And that's it's been that way since I was a
little girl. And it's not you know, friend changes, and
I accumulate friends. I don't tend to discard them, so
you know, it's now like a pool of women, and
(12:19):
then occasionally, like some woman you meet in passing, you know,
that kind of weird intimacy that can happen with like
a woman stranger, Like you're at a party or some
sort of work event or something, and they're just like
a look at each other's eyes, like you're both kind
of looking into the abyss, even though you're in this
(12:39):
maybe more formal setting, and you just exchange like the quickest,
most honest conversation anyone could possibly have in like fourteen seconds,
like are you feeling this? I'm feeling this. Okay, good,
we're both feeling this. We'll carry on, you know. And
that too, is there's something really radical about that to me,
(12:59):
like that sort of underground network or something.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, so it's not only about these like best friends.
There's like a a communal feeling too that that is
inspiring that. Yeah, that does push me further.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah too, especially in the environments you're talking about the
difference I think between being observed and being seen.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, right, that feels so difficult.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, and when someone really sees you and allows you
to really see them, that can be a really seismic
moment in what looks like a dinner party.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah I know, yeah, your own consciousness suddenly shifts and
you're like, oh, yeah, here I am.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It's really interesting you saying that makes me think about
one of my best friends who I grew up with
on my first TV show. We started our birthdays a
week apart. You know, we started this job like, I
don't know, eight days after we turned twenty one. We
had no fucking idea what we were doing. And you know,
(14:10):
it was this sort of duality of such a gift
because we wound up doing this TV show about kids
who wanted to talk about their feelings and it lasted
for almost a decade, and you know, who gets to
do a job for that long. But we were these angsty, little,
you know, girl artists who wanted to do really weird shit,
(14:31):
and you know, we were doing like high school sports.
And I remember the feeling for she and I we
knew we each had that, and she was a person
who really saw me and I really saw her. And
it's so cool to hear you tell a story that
makes me think about our first year working together, because
(14:52):
it was two thousand and three, and in two thousand
and five, when you made me, you and everyone we know,
she and I fell like we had the giddiness that
I remember seeing in older movies about like when a
boy would find his dad's playboys, like, we have found
something that maybe we're not supposed to have, and should
(15:16):
we like sneak into the attic to watch it together
because you just like you, you allowed for quiet and
quirk and introspection and like all the shit you don't
get to do on a teen TV show, and we
were just like, we want to be.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Artists like this. Well I would have been so thrilled
at the time. It would have been like I've made it,
I've done my work. Care is done.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
No, it was like, really, it was just such a
cool thing because yeah, we we felt like we had
discovered this new option for how you could tell stories.
And you know, we were kids, so we definitely were
in a face of like, oh, what old classic movies
have you seen? Like trying to coolure and then here
(16:04):
was this movie that had just been made and we'd
never seen anything like it. And so even though we
hadn't met until today, you and I I do have
to say thank you because.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You made like a pack of fairal.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Little animals working together in North Carolina feel very inspired
and seen.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Oh that's the best story, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah, my gosh. And I wonder about that, you know.
I I love making art. I love to sit with writers,
and I love to tell stories and get into like
why we do these things? Ask all the weird questions.
But you have managed to do so much of it,
(16:44):
which I imagine takes getting over some of the hurdles of
fear about can I do this? Can I make movies?
Can I act in them? Can I write them? Can
I also write novels and books? And you do so much?
And I know you talk about how risk can really
be an element of propulsion.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, there's more to it, I guess.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, there's so much to what you do. And all
of this stuff, from what I understand, can be you know, intense,
and it's very internal, and it can make you feel
a little crazy. It can make you feel lonely. How
how do you balance, you know, your your humanness with
(17:34):
your ability to create when you're in every seat at
the table making these projects.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, I mean one thing it also is is very
very comforting. It's a little like a security blanket. So
imagine each time that I feel out of sorts or
lost or broken hearted. You know, I don't know what
to do next that feeling when you're like you're dangling
(18:03):
in space, you know, like there's nothing holding you up,
and it's a terrible feeling. But I guess at this
point I know just to start writing and just describe
the feeling. And I'm trying to get it down in
a way that someone would be able to catch. Like
(18:24):
I'm throwing a ball and I want it caught. You know,
this isn't throwing it into nowhere. And I can kind
of feel when like, ah, I maybe just describe something
in a way that hasn't been described before, or thought
of a scene, you know, or something that will get
this across. And even though in the moment I'm still alone,
it's like I have a little piece of gold, and
(18:46):
that's the self soothing aspect. And then it it does
bring you into a future where you aren't alone, where
you're having this conversation. So I think it it enables discipline,
you know, like because a big part of it is
also just sitting in a chair instead of getting up
(19:10):
and or more accurately, like not going online, we should
say getting out for something issue. It's all on the computer.
And yeah, so that's the thing is knowing like, Okay,
this process is so deeply satisfying and interesting. If you
can just stick with it, it's a bigger reward then
(19:34):
you're going to get from the quick fix of almost
anything else. Yeah, I mean not, you know, And then
there's real relationships, you know. I think as I get older,
I do start to realize like it can't all be
the work, you know, like that is one relationship, but
then there's intimacy with another person, you know, all those
(19:57):
things still, you know that I in some ways feel
like I'm you know, figuring out the new Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
And now a word from our sponsors that I really
enjoy and I think you will too. It strikes me that,
you know, you push into these places with characters going
through things we haven't you know, really seen, whether it's
(20:29):
you know, what you did with the Metal Bowl or
or Kajillionaire, which I even think now, I'm like, oh
my god, you know that movie came out in twenty twenty.
That must have been such a wild sort of experience.
Like when you sit to create these worlds, do you
have a creative process that you like to stick to,
(20:51):
or is it different for every project, because each of
these projects is a different world.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, it's a little different for each project, and each
tragic you know, happens in a different time in my
life and in the world. But I guess in general
it begins with kind of just noticing what's interesting to
me and religiously putting those things in a file, you know,
(21:22):
so just to file life, just to be practical here
in case it's he's told anyone like I used ever
note and I'll just like, for example, from my last novel,
I just didn't know anything about it yet I called
it novel too, you know, my second novel, And and
just things i'd think of or over here or conversations
(21:44):
i'd have, I just put it in the folder, no judgment,
no idea what this is going to be. I was
working on Kajillionaire, that movie at the time, so there
was really no pressure, right, barely time to think about
novel two. But occasionally there would be something that didn't
really have a place in the project I was working on,
and felt more like a future thing I was curious about.
(22:07):
And then you look back, and I mean in the
case of novel two, I finally had time to look
back through all those notes, and I was like, huh, aging,
femininity and aging, like the body, marriage, like all these perimenopause,
(22:28):
like all these things that I was like, huh, okay,
there's no story yet, but these are pretty deep themes,
you know, and sort of yeah, I don't know, just
just to use that as an example. So often it
is like being as loose as possible about it at
the beginning, because you kind of want to be like
a kindly kindergarten teacher, you know, who's just like, yes,
(22:50):
it's all great, yes, you know, would never be like
judgmental of anything. So I sort of try and be
that to myself for as long as possible and then
kind of get more rigorous about it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
That's really cool. It reminds me of a really good
piece of advice I got years ago, having to work
on a project and portray a person whose behavior I
was really conflicted about, and a friend of mine, you know,
who's a great, great actor and storyteller, who is you know,
(23:27):
sort of in the not age range of my parents,
but like like the cool like an everybody wants to
have kind of vibe in the span of all my
intergenerational friendships. She was like, no matter what, you can't
judge your characters, right, you have to figure out a
way to love this person. And if you can love someone,
(23:52):
the thing I took away was like, if I can
love someone more the more fucked up they are, won't
that be an interesting relationship to learn how to cultivate?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah? Yeah, I love I.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Love that idea that As a writer, you were like, no, no,
first first round of collection. I can't judge any of it.
I can't worry if it's important or whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, exactly, I just have to be with it. Yeah, yeah, right,
because there is usually that repulsion too, whether it's about
what you're writing or someone else their character. There's something
in you that worries. You're like that too, you know,
or that this is all of you, this this idea,
(24:34):
and so it's usually striking some nerve. That's that's pretty
useful for what we do.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
How how when you when you think about the the
narrowing down process to get into or I really I
really guess get from you know the folder labeled novel
two to the book all fours? How how do you
begin to narrow and shape a story? And did it
(25:05):
feel easier because it was your second novel, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I felt second novel and making the movies like I did,
feel like I had some muscles and I knew how
to tell a story. And really now it was more
like like less about finding a great story and I
somehow this it began with this kind of romance. I
(25:34):
knew that there'd be this romance at the beginning, and
I was excited to capture that kind of drugged out
someone's under your skin state and figure out what was
it doing in the folder with with you know, aging
and perimenopause and all this stuff. You know, it was
like how do I what is this all going to be?
(25:55):
But I that kind of propelled me and there is
a certain amount of uh like discovery on the way.
And I think for this book most importantly conversations with
other women like I I in the past, I've really
been able to make a whole world just born out
of my brain pretty well, and this one I just
(26:18):
knew because of those topics. I was like, I just
got to talk to everyone, got to talk to women
older than me who you know, are looking back at
this time, because this really was a book about this
middle time in a life, like you're in the middle
and talk to gynecologists and talk to you know, talk
(26:40):
to just like learn stuff, load up on kind of information,
and then kind of let it go. Because my narrator
doesn't you know, she's not a doctor. She only cares
about changes in her body to the degree that they
affect her desires and plans for herself, you know, which
is kind of how we are, right. I mean, we
(27:03):
we only look at the things on the like web
md list that you know, might fuck with the plan
we have, you know. Everything else is like you know
gray bars.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. I like, I like that
idea that you have to learn everything and then pull
it back and let it just be an influence and
not necessarily make space for every detail or every fact
to wind up on the page.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah. Yeah, because the nice thing about what we do
is that there is a story, and there is like
it's juicy, and it's it's surprising, and they're you know,
like we can hook people in, you know in a
way that's that's you know, like an altered state almost,
(27:55):
And so if you do feel like you have something
to say, like what a lucky way to get to
do it, you know, like through this sort of pleasure.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's deeply cool. You've talked about the process,
and I've also read some of the other interviews, and
you've talked about how the book is really close to you.
How would you describe the book? How do you tell
people what the novel's about? For the folks at home
who are going to go get it this week but
haven't read it yet.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Oh yeah, I mean, ostensibly, it's about a woman who
sets out on a road trip to drive from LA
to New York, and you know, says goodbye or dramatically
to her husband and child, and then she ends up
(28:46):
at a motel twenty minutes away from home and still
calls in and reports on where she is at the
various points across the country, but just stays in the
motel twenty minutes away the whole time. She's so free
driving and in New York and what happens there sort of,
(29:10):
I mean, that's where the romance that I was talking
about happens. And it means that when she returns, which
only takes twenty minutes, but she has to pretend that
she's much more exhausted than that. But when she returns,
it really is as if from an incredible journey and
(29:31):
she no longer fits back into her life, and so
this kind of bends her life, which she loves very much.
I mean, she doesn't want It's not a story really
about someone blowing up their life but also not wanting
to smoothly slip back into the domestic setting again. And
(29:55):
it's really, as I said, a book about midlife. So
it's it's trying to look at all these things that
exist in this mapless place like we're so I mean,
you and I have mostly been young women. That's that's
been our whole experience thus far. And it lasts for
(30:20):
pretty long for a woman, because you know, they just
keep wanting you to be a young woman for as
long as possible. And while men your age might have
already like sort of become like thority figures, you're like
somehow still young. And and then it flips like kind
of abruptly, like I found it to be like, oh wait,
(30:44):
now I'm suddenly old, and all the involvement and all
the representation and and and to some degree over involvement,
like in our reproductive systems stops. It just stops, and
you're actually kind of hunting for basic information about what
happens next, both in your body and just a story,
(31:11):
just a song or some kind of you know what
I mean, some sort of like inspiring, relatable tale that
kind of gives you a pathward the way you had
so many you know, leading to midlife. And so this
book hopes to be that. I mean, it's the book
(31:32):
I wanted when I was forty five and just starting
to write it.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's really beautiful. Is that sort of a surreal thing
to realize on the other side of it as it's
being born out into the world, that that in a
way you had to create it because it just wasn't there.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, I mean, I'll say that it it was. I
was very nervous when I started because I well, for
one thing, I was gonna be outing myself as to
my specific age, which you know, even if I mean
I'm a total feminist, I didn't plan on like lying
(32:18):
about my age. But I at the same time was like, huh,
what's going to be the loss of that to be
like getting into like quote unquote icky stuff around, you know,
Like wouldn't I rather just sort of be graceful about
it and sort of keep it like who knows how
(32:41):
old she really is for as long as possible. And
then I was like, well, I'm not sure what the like.
The reward for that, I guess is is as you
get older, you're sort of ignored less meanly, which didn't
seem like a huge reward. And then I thought, well,
(33:03):
the reward for writing the book would be this conversation
with other women. And I think I can kind of
get through anything and even enjoy anything if I have
that conversation. And I think given that the book was
written essentially in conversation with so many women and has
(33:23):
so many women's kind of voices in there, as you know,
the narrator's friends and you know, whole world, I was
placing all my bets on that working out for me
and having that on the other end, and it's it's
working out, Like I am having that conversation and it's
(33:47):
just beginning, but it's I want to go back and
tell that woman sitting at her desk for four years,
like just keep going. I guess I am. I guess
I did somehow go back and tell her because here
I am.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah. And now for our sponsors, and have there been
moments you've had in conversation with other women where you go, ah,
like this is one of the gems I pick up
here and this has a little nugget here. What do
you what do you feel like you've collected from that
conversational experience.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I mean, one thing is just uh talking to other
mothers married to men as I was at the time,
but mother's married to really anyone, because I just think
the institution of marriage holds a lot with it regardless
(34:53):
of who you're marrying. A we're often the conversation often
was like, is this level of kind of sacrifice at
a soul at a soul level, is this degree of
(35:13):
that an indication of our goodness and the profoundness of
what we're doing here? Or is there maybe something kind
of off about all this? And then the the really
clear thing to me was that we were too exhausted
(35:36):
and already feeling guilty about ten million things to hold
the thread of that thought, you know, because it's like
easy to feel sort of alone in a marriage or
as a mother, and then there's just something else to
do next after you have that feeling that you've got
to do responsibility wise, and so you're not going to
(35:59):
lie start a revolution off that one moment right, You're
not going to radically change something in your life off
that one moment. But what if I, because it's literally
my job, collected all those moments and held the thread
and just tried to connect them all together, just on
(36:20):
the off chance that this is actually something that we
keep dismissing. But actually we're all dismissing it. And so
maybe that's not just a nagging feeling that you know
that should be pushed down. But yeah, you know, so
I tried. I tried in the book to hold that
(36:43):
thread as like holding a grain of sand for four
years and believing it was valuable.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Well, it strikes me as how powerful an idea and
honestly of permissions of sorts to look at your feelings
and the feelings of all these other women and say, hey,
that knocking your experiencing isn't a sign of your unworthiness
(37:12):
or your lack of capability to make it all work.
It might be an indicator that you have settled for
less than you deserve. It might be a calling to
open the door and see what's on the other side, right.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, And it might be an indication that there's something
not right with the world or the structure that you're in,
you know, rather than you like you're fitting into something
that is genuinely uncomfortable, you know, like a box that
doesn't fit you.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, you get so conditioned to do it. Yeah, and
then you know, wild things happen, like a pandemic or
you know the summer of twenty twenty three where like
everyone got divorced. Yeah, and you go, oh, okay, there's
something happening here. And I think I think sometimes it's
(38:07):
not a coincidence that it big shifts like that happen
in such large groups. You know, such a large percentage
of people will make you know, whether it's that Summer
of twenty twenty three shift or you know, shifts in
their work life. You know, people got sent home from
their offices and then change their whole lives. And you know,
(38:29):
more women than ever started small businesses. And I think
there can be terror, I'm sure, but you know freedom
when you claim your right to change.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, yeah, and how you want to do it, and
that it doesn't have to look like the way someone
else changed.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah, does it feel? Because I think it's so beautiful
when you talk about how personal these stories are and
how you can see yourself and all these other women
in your life in a novel like this. But I
know you know, you talked about how the Metal Bowl,
the short story for Our Friends at Home, It was
(39:13):
published in The New Yorker in twenty seventeen. It's a
really incredible piece, and I think really pressing even in
twenty twenty four now that we're seeing a lot of
women experience the world of deep fake pornography on the internet.
It really examines you know, what happens when people recognize
(39:36):
you from something like that. And you talked about how
it wound up being this really harrowing experience for you
because you hadn't given the character enough detail that she
didn't feel very much like you. And I know you
can see yourself in this book. So is it important
(39:56):
to feel that or is it terrifying to feel that?
How do you think that connects across all these years.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, I think I like work where I can feel
the real woman behind it, and sometimes that's just total
fiction and she's just very alive and present. Sometimes that
is a sort of auto fiction where you get that
exciting feeling of you're like, this all really happened. I'm
(40:26):
too obsessed with like plot and characters to get anywhere
with that, you know, like part of the magic for
me is in making it up. I mean, for this
book is a little different because I didn't name the
character and I left her job kind of lose, so
you could map her on me, which I sort of do. Anyways,
(40:48):
I'm always flipping to the author photo and I'm like,
that's her, whether or not she looks anything like the
way the narrator was described. I just thought, well, give
that I have this weird life where I have been
in some of the movies that I've written, and given
that people love to conflate, especially women, with the narrator.
(41:11):
Instead of fighting against that and being like, she has
red hair, she's an architect, she you know, creating all
this fictional stuff, why don't I kind of be a
little generous and loan my character some things about me,
just basic things, nothing crazily specific, and then go ahead
(41:33):
and write the fiction and let people enjoy the weird
frision that comes from that, the energy. There's something that
we like in that, And given that I really want
to tell this story, like, I think that's to its benefit.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The potential for transference, I think gives
it it's like a little bit pixie dust, you know,
because it feels sparkly, it feels real. Yeah. Yeah, I
read that you have a rule that after you write
a book, you make a movie, or you try to
(42:13):
do vice versa. Is that true? Do you really try to,
you know, pluck yourself out of one thing and go
into a different medium to clean out your brain?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Well, I mean the thing is writing is kind of
the mainstay in both those things. It's it's the bedrock.
So I'm always writing. I'm even writing, you know what
I'm doing performance or or more art art. But there
is something about like maybe not sort of not wanting
(42:45):
to lose my membership in those worlds, not in a
career sense, but in a creative sense. It's like, well,
it takes a long time to write a book and
to make a movie, and if you do two movies
in a row, then you know where there is that
fiction writer soul, you know, And so it's a bit
of a I mean, if I could have two of me,
(43:08):
that would be cool. Yeah. I think maybe as I
get older, there merging a little bit. There's something so
like I somehow feel like I got a kind of
performance film thing into this book. I know it's just
a book. I understand that it's an object, but there's
(43:29):
a way in which I feel like there's an acceleration
or a merging. And so I'm curious. I'm not sure
if my next thing. I feel like somehow it'll be
everything and I won't have to choose. We'll see, I'll
get back to you.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, but there's that thing again of it's about
to be another first day at school, and that's so exciting,
I know.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
So you sit, you know, with this beautiful body of work,
and you know, as you mentioned, it's film, and there
are the books you've written, and the short stories you've
published and like very serious art. You've exhibited art with
curators out around the world. It's it's so inspiring for
(44:19):
someone like me, And I wonder for you, being you know,
the nucleus of this world, what feels like it's next
from this vantage point in this year, what would you
say is your work in progress?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
M I feel like I'm a total baby on relationships,
Like I that's my most work in progress side of myself.
And so I'm I feel like I'm making decisions in
(44:58):
a new way as to like where to put my
time what's valuable. You know. The goal used to always
be work, and I was like, well, you know, it's
all fine as long as I get my time to work,
which felt kind of like I was lucky in that respect,
you know, like what a lucky woman to get to
do her creative work. And now I I just see
(45:23):
that there was another side of me that was like
semi starving and like waiting its turn, you know, and
then like and now can't be like put back in
the box. So it's really interesting figuring out how to
do all this, and you know, and I've I should whatever.
(45:44):
I'm just had really wonderful formative relationships. But I feel
like I'm kind of present in a new way and
it's kind of psychedelic, Like it's kind of like like
sometimes I really am like did I did I eat
a gummy? Like no, I didn't, Like I'm I am
not tripping here, Like this is just like my brain
(46:08):
is expanding and I'm having new feelings and which is
funny because I kind of thought I was like sort
of an expert at intimacy and vulnerability, like that was
sort of my thing. So that's that's a great feeling. Actually,
(46:30):
to be like have that be the work in progress
and then have sort of the confidence that comes from
also knowing I can process all of that in my work.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah that's so special. Yeah, I don't know. I hear
so much of what you're talking about and the shift
at fifty and I I just know I had such
a big shift at forty really forty one like changed
my whole life. Yeah, and I always sort of felt,
well the way you're describing, like, oh, vulnerability is my thing.
(47:04):
Relationships are my thing, Like that's what I do. And
I've really begun to process the solitude or aloneness that
is required to make these projects, because you know, they
pull you out of your life. You go on the location,
you leave everything, and I'm like, oh man, I'm really
good at present intimacy, but like when I'm gone, I'm gone,
(47:28):
and it is it's like adding this whole new layer
into relationships in my life and also how I know myself.
And I'm like, WHOA. I looked at a friend of
mine the other day and I was like, you you
text a lot with everyone, Like what are you texting about?
What do people text about? Because this is what I do,
(47:49):
Like I sit, I want to talk, but like on
the phone with the typing, like what are you typing about?
And he just fell out of his chair laughing at me,
and I was like, no, but I mean it.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
When I read your text, I always and I always like,
I start getting the nervous feeling like is this gonna
last forever? This this back and forth? And then I
feel like when I put the heart on, that means done? Right?
Does that universally acknowledge? Like the heart is like I'm out,
but in a in a kind way, like a punctuation mark.
(48:21):
Not everyone reads it that way, though, No, No, I
gotta be careful with those hearts.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah, you gotta be careful with the hearts. I realize
I'm apparently a rare bird in the group because I
just FaceTime everyone. I'm like, if you're going to talk,
let's talk. I want to talk because the typing it
makes me so uncomfortable, and everyone's like, you're a boomer.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I'm like, I guess here we are. That's a very
that's kind of a power move, Sophia, to just FaceTime,
you know, to just there you are, there you are.
I'm sit in the cup holder.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Let's drive around the city and have a chat.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Oh. I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Maybe maybe that winds up being like a scene we
shoot some day.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good shot from the cup holder.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah, I really like it. Yeah. Well, thank you. It's
been so special to be able to ask you so
many questions, and they really have been a long time coming.
And I can't wait. I can't wait to tell Hillary
that I interviewed. She's going to lose to me.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, thank you so much, and good luck with the
book and everything. I know that our friends who have
enjoyed this at home as much as I have today
or are going to be hitting their local bookstores and
diving into this along with me and our whole little crew.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Thank you.
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