Uprising Updates with a Minneapolis Protester

Today we talk updates about the, you know, massive public unrest and police brutality, and then talk to a Minneapolis protester about his city, like, abolishing the police.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Worst Year Ever, A production of I Heart
Radio Together Everything, So don't don't what's fucking my police? Obviously?

(00:26):
What's sucking them America? Yeah, A long history of picgoted uh,
law enforcement violence um uh, media that uh gives people
unreasonable expectations and understandings of the efficacy of law enforcement
investigations and the necessity of the same um structural inequalities. Uh.

(00:49):
And of course the desire of capital to protect itself
using violence. Uh. Those are all the things that are
sucking the I it's the worst. Really catch intro. Thank you.
I'm going to out there. Yeah yeah, yeah, I have
it tattooed on my taint. UM where I put all

(01:10):
true things. That sounds painful. It's extremely painful, Katie. But
the truth, the truth hurt. Oh. We did it, we
did We really did great. How are you all doing? Uh?
And in week two of the general uprising sort of thing,
We're all and feeling pretty hopeful and positive. I'm also exhausted,

(01:38):
and I feel like I feel guilty saying that, because
that's nothing compared to what so many people are feeling.
But that is the honest truth. Uh, it's a it's
a mixed bag of those things. UM and I and
I say the exhausted thing though, because this is a marathon,
not a sprint. Um. There is a lot of work

(02:01):
and sustained effort that needs to be maintained. And so
we've got to be able to be honest with ourselves
and and and keep ourselves healthy for this. You know, Yeah,
I am. After the first nine days, I was out
eight nights for like eight hours every night, and I'm
taking a few nights off to right because if we
have a new podcast series we're putting together about the

(02:22):
history of the police. Um and um, like it's this.
As soon as I stopped, I started having like these
like violent mood swings, like not violent towards people, but
just like right like, I wound up leaving my house because, um,
I have a friend staying with me and I just
needed to like get annoyed at traffic and scream at
people from inside my car, um, because I didn't want

(02:45):
to like be around. I don't want to be like
inflicting my personality on other people. While I was like
and it's sort of like there, it's it's kind of
the when you take a shipload of aggression and I'm
sure a lot of people listening right now have been
the on the receiving end of stream militarized aggression for
the first time in their lives. Like when when that happens,

(03:06):
there's a point at which kind of like the anger
you feel internally over that, we will generally bubble out.
I'm not gonna say that happens to everybody, but it's
certainly like, this is not my first time dealing with this,
and it does happen on the other end. So yeah,
I'm just trying to, like I want to, like, I'm
very frustrated because I wasn't out last night and one

(03:26):
of my um one of my my stringers, one of
my um MY team members, the journalists that I've been
working with on the ground, got arrested for asking a
police officer his name, and it's on video. Her press
pass is visible the whole time, like all she's doing
is filming and arrest, which she has a legal, constitutionally
guaranteed right to do. UM and asks a police officer
his name because he is again illegally covering his name,

(03:49):
and he UM he arrested her and she just got
a citation. We got her out and we're going to
fight the citation because they had no grounds to arrest her. Um.
But uh, it's yeah, And like today our police chief resigned,
and I think that the fact that, like there was
a shipload of violence against the press. Over the last
couple of days, two of my colleagues got really fucked up.
One of them was based in the eyes and thrown

(04:09):
to the ground. Another caught Portland's police kneeling on a
woman's neck while arresting her, which obviously is the kind
of police violence that sparked a lot of this. Um.
And he started filming that and the police shoved him back,
knocked him down, and then beat him on the legs
with sticks. Um. And this was all filmed by a
news helicopter. So it's like pretty cool. I said this

(04:35):
to you guys before we were recording. But it's wild
to me. I guess it's not wild to me, not
after everything we've been learning over the past many years.
But couple of weeks is how some cities are just
really doubling down on the fucking bad mistakes. I mean
the police specifically, whereas other cities have you know, they've

(05:00):
they've withdrawn troops and they've taken a step back, and
the peaceful protests have blossomed. Uh, and you know, the
violent looting has subsided, you know, but but other places,
like where you are, that is not so. Yeah, And

(05:22):
I have, I mean, I have some strong feelings on
kind of the way these things are framed. For one thing,
I don't consider looting to be don't either, um, because
property cannot experience violence. Nobody could see me doing air quotes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, nobody, nobody.
I keep seeing people like frame it like looting and writing,

(05:42):
like all these things are like together or evil. I
don't think any of those people would call shoplifting an
act of violence. But the store is closed, beating protesters
is violent. The fucking CEO of Target even came out
and was like, I'm a billion there. I could like
literally pay for all the damage done to our stores

(06:03):
and wouldn't notice it. Like it's yeah, it's okay. I
have Target stores in my pockets right now. Yeah, like
it's it's it really is fine. Target will be all right, Yes,
I do. I do feel bad for small businesses that
cannot recoup losses completely. That sucks, but it's not violence.

(06:25):
But anyway, it's not the same as. Yeah, you know,
like a young woman died because the police tear gassed
her and it closed her lungs off. And if you have,
if you've ever been in a tear gas cloud, that
is the the blinding and the pain sucks, But when
your lungs closed, especially if you're still as I was,
in a couple of situations like sprinting for a while
without being able to breathe, Like it's terrifying and disorienting

(06:47):
and sometimes people don't get to breathe again. Like that's
the reality of the fucking tear gas that our police
have been housing streets in during a pandemic during that
affects your respiratory system. Gotta love using chemical weapons that
target your respiratory system during a pandemic or a disease
that targets your respiratory system. Very responsible policing, responsible, um,

(07:11):
It is wild to me. Also, I wouldn't know how
violent the Portland's police have been during this if it
wasn't for you and and the people on the ground
with you, because the coverage of it on the news
is not there. Yeah, there's some element to which it's
starting to be. But like our our local news has

(07:33):
been like has been like drying a separation between the
this crowd of demonstrators who chant peaceful protests repeatedly, and
all they do is march from one building across a
bridge and hang out and talk for a while and
then march back and nothing happens, and it doesn't really
even take any police resources. And this crowd that assembols

(07:53):
in front and what's been happening for nights is this
credible assembol in front of the Justice Center. Um. They
will heckle and yell at the police. The police have
pulled back mostly inside the Justice Center. Occasionally people will
throw water bottles over. What happened the last night I
was at was the police actually uh, They announced that
they had seen projectiles in the crowd, did not define
what those projectiles were, and then began firing projectiles into

(08:17):
the crowd. And once the police start shooting into the crowd,
people start throwing water bottles back at them. Um. And
when the police got tired, they started firing heavier munitions
into the crowd, and somebody threw a couple of fireworks
into the police side to obscure their line of sight
to make it harder for them to hit people. With
the projectile munitions, the rubber bullets and the phone bullets.
They were shooting into the crowd at random. Um. And

(08:37):
then the police were able to claim it was a
violent protest because two officers got injured by a firework
that was thrown at the officers. After again officers were
filing firing wildly into the crowd. It's very frustrating. But
if your protest isn't exhausting the police, isn't costing them manpower,
isn't running the department out of money. Um, you're not

(08:59):
doing anything, is my opinion on the matter. If I was,
if I was allowed to have an opinion as a journalist, yeah,
then it's just a parade. Um. Yeah, anyway, you're allowed
to have an opinion as a journalist. Okay, Yeah, So yeah,
we're in cool times, as I don't know, we're like
right on the edge. There's so much like fucking tragedy

(09:21):
and hope in the air right now, because like you're
hearing about you know, Minneappolis, when we'll be talking to
someone from Minneapples later, like Minneapolis talking about just like
removing their police department entirely. Um. In Portland, we've even
made some major changes. They've announced that they're like disbanding
the Gun Violence Task Force and the Gang Crime Task Force, which, like,
I think people who don't know much about law enforcement
would be like, oh, but then there's going to be

(09:42):
more gun crime. It's like, no, the Gun Crime Task
Force causes more gun crime than it does prevent it.
Like they shoot a lot of people. Um, maybe we
shouldn't have them. Um. And they've removed Portland's police officers
from Portland's schools, which is good. Um. And you're seeing
stuff like that in a number of American cities now. Um,
you know, Los Angeles is cutting what is I would say,

(10:03):
not a huge chunk of the overall police budget, because
the l a p D budget is fucking outrageous, but
it's it's a sliver, but it is, Yes, and most
a lot of large cities, the police funding is as
much as the funding for every other city service put together, um,
if not much more. Um So while that what is

(10:25):
a hullion dollars, they're kind Yeah, it's not an enormous
chunk of the l a p D budget. It's a
huge chunk of the money that goes to other things
that the city of l A provides. Um, and it's
a start. You know, we should trim, let's say, of
the l A p DS budget. But I do think
that progress has to be a take what you can

(10:48):
get sort of thing, as long as it's not like, oh,
we got a little bit, now, let's all start at
stop agitating. Like that's if that is what happens, then
then it's a failure. Well that was a fear, but
I don't see that happening. Yeah, I mean it's it's
it's early to tell, but yeah, yesterday Hollywood got like
what ten thousand people marching through fucking Hollywood, and yeah,

(11:09):
and Saturday, I mean everywhere. I mean over the weekend
in Los Angeles, you could drive to every different neighborhood
and find community action happening. You could find protests being organized.
It's pretty inspiring. Philly was enormous, even like, yeah, like
little towns. I keep saying, um, I saying before we
start recording, I was, I keep seeing people post like, uh,

(11:32):
these small protests and like these smaller towns and like
Texas and places, and being like I grew up in
this town and it is fucking wild that people are
protesting about this in that town. Yeah, and more and
more and more and more things like that of like
not even not just the massive places in these big cities,
but just like these little pockets. We wouldn't expect that

(11:55):
kind of upswell of of support mm hmm. Yeah. And
today the House Democrats UM unveilable police. They took a knee,
but they also and they wore those sashes. There's a
better word for them. I don't know. They they they

(12:16):
culturally appropriated the ship out of some stuff. It was
it was I mean, it was apparently planned by the
Black Caucus, but that photo is. But they they unveiled
a police reform bill that has some things in there
that have been discussed. Uh, defunding the police is not

(12:38):
one of them. Um. Also this who knows what this
will be received too in the Senate. Um. But it
just to show the different world we're living in. After
two weeks of sustained effort, yeah, actual like um and

(12:59):
actual effort. Me, I don't have faith. Just a week ago,
there were a lot all these reports of people trying
to like get in contact with senators and Senate aids
and like people in the House just like asking like
what will what will happen in response to this protest.
And this was like early on and every single person

(13:20):
scoffed at the idea, like there's nothing what like, no,
we're not gonna there's nothing, there's no action. It's gonna
be taken like this, and so whatever your opinion is
on what what the actual legislation is or whether or
not will pass. A few days later they tried to
do something mm hmm. Yeah. And like other stuff, like
one of the great things that started to happen is

(13:40):
like there's these like Richmond is one city, in Charlottesville's
another where they have these like statues of Confederates. They're
starting to get removed now just because and and this
didn't just start with George Floyd's death. I know activists
there who have been fighting to get these things removed
for years now. Yeah, it's been a discussion like for
so long. It feels like every conversation about it is

(14:00):
just on repeat. Yeah, it's just sort of and but
this was kind of like a rising tides, lift all
boats thing and so and that's not a meaningless chance,
that's not a cosmetic just a cosmetic change, like it
is cosmetic, and that it's a physical thing that's being removed.
But the the the lack of a presence of statues
commemorating fucking traitorous slaveholders in American cities is meaningful. Um.

(14:26):
It's meaningful to the black people who live in those cities,
and it's also meaningful and kind of the message that
it sends Americans and particularly young Americans who grow up
around that. Um, it's meaningful that the Marine Corps is
banning the use of the Confederate flag, and that the
Armies considering renaming bases named after Confederate leaders, which they
never should have had bases named after Confederate leaders. All

(14:49):
of this is fucking part of it. You know, it's meaningful.
The fucking crowd in Bristol through the statue of that
Coulson guy, that slaveholder who like built the city, Yeah,
just through it in the fucking river. Like they didn't
didn't wait to have the government say they could remove it.
Was just like, yeah, we're just gonna take it down
and throw in the river. And like a lot of

(15:11):
these statues are have were also like erected uh like
yes after like in response to the civil rights movement
and a huge fun you two people so we're still
in charge black people. Thing. Yeah, like look at that,
look at our statues. Also start speaking of stumping the
statue in the river. Some guys are trying to fish

(15:33):
it out of trying to fish it out with like
one of those sticks you used to clean out a
swimming pool. Yeah, it's amazing, it's it's beautiful. Yeah, it's
it's a lot of the best, a lot of visual
metaphors out there lately. Yeah, And it's like all of this,
all of the things that are changing around the country,
all of like the like it's the kind of thing

(15:54):
we're not going to get I can tell you already,
Like is not going to suddenly like sweep Trump physically
out of the White House and abolish all the police departments.
I would be all on board for that if it were.
But that's still not the America we live in. But
we do now live in America where a hell of
a lot for one thing, I think probably a million
or two more people, UM have either been directly assaulted

(16:18):
by the police or who have had a loved one
directly assaulted by the police. And that's gonna change how
some people vote. UM. And we like the the the
the the window. We'll talk about this in our interview
a little later, but kind of like the window of
debate on what is appropriate for for us to have
in terms of police has shifted massively over the last

(16:38):
nine days, in a way that I would have thought
impossible ten days, even days not I I tweeted this.
I mean, people, we've talked about this. Everybody's been talking
about it, you know, a few weeks ago. Yeah, I
wanted police reform. I thought most cops are pretty bad.
But you'd be hard pressed to get me saying all

(17:01):
cops are bastards. Not true anymore, Absolutely not true, and
that and and and even more so, I don't know
anybody else who wouldn't be willing to say that. I
actually do. I know people. But for the most part,
I'm really heartened by the shift I've seen just across

(17:22):
the board from people in my circles, you know, Centrists
that are staunchly a cab Yeah, I also just guys.
I've mentioned America a lot, but it's it's not just
America doing this. I mean, even that's what the Bristol
thing was. Yeah, and the French rioting on our I'm

(17:43):
taking down those King Leopold statues, which is bad. Well,
they're they're covering it. Have they taken them down yet?
I know that they've been protesting them based there's something
been like fully like chopped. Yeah, that's been nice to see. Yeah,
King Leopold, Yeah, all the Churchill stuff. Yeah, people fucking

(18:05):
with Churchill statues, um, and uh you know, and then
people responding like, but he's not Hitler. Yeah, yes, you're right.
He was half of a Hitler and at the time
that was better than a Hitler. But it doesn't mean
we should have statues to him. Still. Yeah, Yeah, there's

(18:26):
a lot of that shift. I see everywhere every day,
more and more like parents of like conservative parents, even
of friends of mine who were like I didn't realize this, um,
and people like responding online even just being like, yeah,
I used to really support police unions and police like
all these like booster stuff and I will never ever

(18:47):
vote for increasing funding for police again in my life.
Oh I've got a good one. Uh. You guys have
heard me mentioned before. Probably I have a friend that
I my best friend from high school. Uh, we grew
apart very conservative now voted for Trump, her husband as
a Trump supporter, and that we don't communicate very often anymore.

(19:09):
But her husband started liking all of my Black Lives
Matters posts and the defund the police posts. What you
tell me that, Oh wow, just started happening. That's wild, folks,
that's that's a huge cultural shift. It's time for an

(19:30):
ad I think is what we're getting to yes together everything.
So don't don't know, that was a nice break. That
was a nice break. Minneapolis is going to get a

(19:53):
nice break from having Minneapolis police. Yeah, we those Seattle
isn't going to have a nice break from getting tear gasts. No,
they're not. Despite the promise of a thirty day break
from getting tear gas we broke that promise on day two.
So yeah, it's it's funny the police. Like the phrase

(20:14):
that keeps cropping up that I love because it's brilliant
is tear gas lighting? Um, yeah, yeah, it's we we've
been having that in Portland to where like two nights ago,
well three nights ago, the mayor came out. Mayor Ted Wheeler,
who is also the police police commissioner and thus directly
responsible for all the violence everyone's been receiving, came out

(20:35):
to like talk to the community and like speak with
a number of local black and Hispanic activists and like
the middle of this huge crowd of thousands, and everybody
just told him what a piece of ship. He was like,
there was no respect, there was no attempt at like
it was just like no, fuck you, we want you out.
Stop using tear gas. And he he committed to not

(20:57):
use the sound canon, which was breaking people's ears. And
then he was like and I'll tell them tomorrow not
to use tear gas. Of course that night they gassed
the ship out of us. Well I'm glad we can
laugh about it. Yeah, it was nice you have had
I will say, watching Ted Wheeler get shouted at by

(21:18):
the entire town um like literally thousands of people like this,
this huge crowd of thousands arrived while he was already
surrounded by like a thousand people, and he got so
scared and like tried to leave immediately, and like the
activity was talking to hs like are you scared of
the people of your town? Ted, Like we've all been
We've all been getting shot at by your police for
the last week. Like why are you scared? Like what

(21:42):
I like the next day, Um Mayor Fray of Minneapolis,
who like made a big show of crying at George
Floyd's memorial. Um went out directly into a crowd to
speak to them and was asked if he supported defunding
the Minneapolis Police and said no, and everybody said funk off.
Like this, like the New York Times described it as

(22:04):
like a moment of public shaming. Um. Almost that was
almost like incomprehensible. It's kind of you only see a movie,
TV show. It's impossibly written. You'd be like, well, like
so down, guys, like like that's it's. Um, Yeah, it's bizarre.
It's so wild to see. I'm gonna admit watching Wheeler

(22:25):
get shouted down like that, I was a little bit hard,
Like that was I did it. It's there are a
lot of there are a lot of like commable moments
that shaming. The zoom the zoom calls are amazing. Those
conversations I keep I I keep thinking about, like imagine

(22:46):
if Pete were mayor of South Bend right now is
oh my god, tear gas m oh on the lines
of the tear gas lighting. It's really interesting because this
is all like we keep were bringing up like for
guson time period UM during all of this because it's
all like intensified echoes of what we saw during that

(23:08):
um and this is the same kind of thing about
to your guests. But I also, uh, you keep seeing
police uh accounts sharing these tables of items, and it's
heartening to me to see people look at those tables
of items that like protesters through you know, and just
everybody going fuck you bu um. Robert, you mentioned already

(23:36):
that we are speaking u with somebody from Minneapolis later
in the episode, ure, should we give our listeners a
little bit of rundown of what's happening there, just in
case they don't know? Yeah, I mean, so, the people
of Minneapolis revolted against their police department after the murder
of George Floyd. Uh. They laid siege to the Third

(23:57):
Precinct and eventually through she or weight of numbers uh
and running the police out of munitions forced the police
to withdraw, and then they fucking burned the precinct down.
The National Guard and other police have been called in
and so like some areas of Minneapolis have like you know,
are being essentially policed by everything but the Minneapolis p D.

(24:19):
But chunks of the city are kind of letting them
be for the most part, because like they made their
feelings on being policed pretty clear. Um. And there's kind
of a like it was announced I think yesterday the
news dropped, um, so like Sunday that a veto proof
majority of the Minneapolis City Council was going to be
disbanding the Minneapolis Police and kind of replacing it with

(24:41):
something new public Safety Council or something like that. Um.
And we I don't think we know exactly how they're
like they're still kind of figure out what that looks like. Um,
but it's kind of acknowledgement from the elected leaders that like,
we can't reform the Minneapolis Police, we have to get
rid of them. And like obviously there's there's jobs that
they do that are necessary, Like there's people who investigate murder,

(25:05):
murders should be investigated, but we can't fix this. It
has to be replaced. Yeah. Incredibly exciting. Yeah, it's a
good move. And you know, you're seeing an increasing a
lot of you know, a sizeable chunk of the activists
in Portland demanding the Portland Police be disbanded. I'm not sure,
I haven't seen. You know, there's I think a larger

(25:27):
movement for kind of completely disbanding the police in there
has been, but that's still a pretty fringe political statement nationwide.
But I think a sizeable chunk of Americans agree with
UM reforming or reducing their funding. So I do think
you're gonna see, like again, kind of different steps taken
in different areas, but Minneapolis is going to be kind
of on the forefront of experimenting, like what if we

(25:47):
just tried something totally different, so that it's going to
be of the stories to continue to be watching in
the next year or two really and more. Minneapolis is
I think a really important one to keep an eye on. Yeah,
because also even just in talking about it, uh, that
changes public opinion and yeah, and it's just like simple

(26:09):
things like Okay, in this situation, it wouldn't be a
police officer, it would be this UM. So even before
you see the effect of it, I think people will
open up to it more because when you you're about
it, it it makes sense. Yeah, and you know, I'm a
police abolitionist. I think we need to figure out something else.
But I'm also like, Okay, well if this police department

(26:32):
cuts their staff by thirty this by and they remove
these weapons, and like that's better than nothing. And I'm
not going to stop pushing for police abolition, but if
I can have fewer police and have them be less
heavily armed while I'm pushing to get rid of the
rest of them, that that strikes me as an acceptable tactic,

(26:53):
you know. Yeah, And I have seen people push back
on because of because of the they easily conflate abolition
with defunding and these other plans um out of like
this weird fear that like, well, they do this and
then they'll do the abolishment and stuff like even the
that mayor who got shamed free he was asked, will

(27:17):
you commit to defunding the police, but his answer was
I do not believe in fully abolishing the police, which
isn't an answer to the question that she asked. Um,
so there's a yeah, I don't know. It's it's just
interesting how people view both of those things and where

(27:38):
one will lead. But use like using the abolition possibility
as an excuse to say that we shouldn't do things
that everyone agrees are good. Yeah, I don't know, y'all. Um.
I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know,
one of the things that's kind of kind of worrying
to me is there is this element of kind of
co opting some of these protests. You saw there these

(28:00):
photos going around like one of the guys leading some
who's not leading, but he just kind of like stumbled
into the front of one of these marches in New
York City dressed like a black panther with a megaphone
but also like super chummy, putting his arm around the
police inspector who's like yeah yeah, and he like turns
out he's like an Instagram model and stuff who's not

(28:21):
even from New York, hasn't lived there long. Is just
kind of trying to co opt. And we have We've
had something like that in Portland too. This is puplicities. Yeah,
we we had like this this chunk of And again
one of the problems is that when you when you're
looking at these massive marches, they're not organized usually by
like a strict hierarchy. Like there's just sort of an
activist community and it's like, oh, we have people who

(28:41):
know how to be the folks on bikes who make
sure that the group stays together and who's got ahead.
We have folks who know how to be medics. We
have folks who know how to like be in the
middle of the group to stop it from panicking if
they get gassed, and to like help keep people together.
We have folks who know how to like lead chance
and folks who know how to like help, you know,
keep thousands of people together as they marched through a city,
and everybody just kind of does their job. But because
the people who really know what they're doing are kind

(29:03):
of doing their job and watching that for the police. Um,
you you can have sometimes people just sort of like
start chanting in the front and get on a bullhorn
and kind of try to make themselves into figureheads of
the movement. And we had this happen in Portland recently too,
where like these folks that nobody really knew got in
front and started kind of co opting the march and

(29:24):
doing weird stuff like refusing to try to push past
a police barrier when they had the numbers to do
it without asking anyone what they wanted to do. UM.
And it turns out later that like one of those there,
the initial folks who was like trying to become the
face of this movement in Portland UM was a convicted
pedophile who had raped a five year old UM and
who had just gotten out of jail um and was

(29:45):
a model and trying to and he was he was
a young black guy. He was a model and was
trying to like reinvent himself this way. And it's like, um,
a lot of shady stuff happening people with like that
nobody knows who are kind of like one of the
things that's been happening is um, the the kind of
activist communities have been trying to like make sure that
they're putting um, people of color up front and center,

(30:09):
which is good and important and a lot of really
good activists around the country right now, um are are
are you know, people of color who are kind of
dominating and leading this movement in a way that's really important.
But it's also the fact that like they're they're trying
to put new voices up front means that like people
that folks haven't known as well are winding up in
the front of some of these movements, and some of

(30:31):
these people are like take like shady as ship right um.
And it's it's this problem when you're putting a bunch
of new voices up front, is that some of them
are going to be some of them are gonna be
working with the fucking cops, right, Like, that's that's the situation, UM,
because it's profitable sometimes to work with the cops, and
because they I think a lot of them think that
they can make a bunch of money out of this
once kind of the the um the revolutionary fervor dies down,

(30:55):
And I think that's a worry that UM. Everybody of
of all groups who cares about really making meaningful chains
needs to be concerned about it. Like if you see
someone at the front um of one of these groups,
UM for one thing, Like, I don't trust the phrase
peaceful protests because peaceful protests never accomplished anything. I think
non violent protest is important. I don't think peaceful protest

(31:18):
has any fucking value. I think a non peaceful but
non violent protest doesn't have to be looting and burning downtown.
Although I'm not going to say that's never, um uh
an effective strategy for a movement to pursue, but it
does need to be, you know. I do think a
valid option is draining the resources in the time and

(31:39):
the manpower of the police and exhausting them and making
them hate their jobs and making them feel unwelcome and
kind of mentally abusing the cops a little bit to
get him to quit. Um. I I think that that's
a valuable I think making them realize I think a
big part of why a number of folks become police
is because it's been traditionally a respected job. So I
do think that if we're talking about a adversity of tactics,

(32:01):
one tactic in reducing the number of police is making
them hate their job absolutely, in addition to cutting their
fundings so they make less money and that there are
fewer of them, you know, I mean, yeah, it's changing
the way we perceive them. If this job is not
perceived as high status, then it will not attract the
same bullies, right situation. Yeah, So I don't know. Um,

(32:29):
I think we've kind of gotten through all of the
stuff I wanted to talk about at this stage before
we lead into our our interview with a with One
Voice for Minneapolis. Um And yeah, yeah, well that's perfectly
timed with our next ad break. So well done, Hubert.
In all of this chaos, the one thing that's never

(32:51):
changed for me is my my love and appreciation of
products and services. Raytheon, proud sponsor of Black Lives matter protests,
Raytheon will not has never tear gas in anybody. Sure
they've helped launch a few thousand missiles at a few
thousand weddings, of course, now obviously, but what if they've
done here with tear gas? Exactly, no tear ga. So

(33:16):
support Raytheon in its quest to make sure that every
newly wed couple gets hell fire missile uh directly into
their family. That is the beautiful dream of Raytheon, and
that's the beautiful dream of this podcast Together Everything podcast. Well,

(33:47):
we probably will record up to the show separate. No, nope, nope,
this is all staying in this. We just introduced the show.
This is this is worst year ever the podcast where yeah,
we don't run a very tight ship, but not that
it is America. So no, but you know, Katie fun fact,

(34:09):
this is actually not a ship. It is a podcast.
So yeah, yeah, you you have been trimming sails for
a year for no reason. I've been throwing up everywhere.
I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I wonder the drama
main doesn't work. Yeah okay, well that fun introduction, uh

(34:29):
was was our way of of getting everybody in with
a laugh, because I'm sure like have been tear guests
since the last episode. Um yeah, uh, we're we're we're
talking about the the uprising nationwide against the police. And
today we have a guest from the epicenter of this uprising, Minneapolis, Minnesota. Carl.

(34:54):
How are you doing today? Doing great? It's uh, you know,
just another day in a new war old. Yeah. What
do you mean by a new world? Well, you know,
since since we watched that murder um, things here just
so so quickly fell apart and have turned into something

(35:16):
completely new that it's you know, it's something I never
thought I would see in my life, let alone have,
uh in my face, the very real possibility that we're
going to get rid of our police force. You know,
like all over the city, the community has turned into
something that I never As much as this city is
different in a lot of ways in that community vibe,

(35:38):
it's never been like this. Um. You know, we we
essentially have taken over the a large city and demanded
that it changes fundamentally how we do what we do
and go about our daily lives. And we're not gonna

(36:00):
sit and and and take platitudes or hollow gestures anymore.
It's our world now, So we have this whole mentality
that anything's up for grabs, and we're seeing that day
by day and new things, new attitudes, new views on
what we want, and it's it's totally unique. I've never
in my life experienced anything that felt simultaneously like candlelight vigil,

(36:25):
a powerful moment of anger and sadness that's had decades
of building behind it, and this other sense of just
like hope, and that that sense of hope, I think
is something that, if nothing else, is one of the
more truly uplifting things I've ever seen. And it beats

(36:51):
out any of the corporate manufactured stuff we've ever seen
that's supposed to be quote unquote uplifting, and it's it's
just it's really in your face representation of what it
looks like. I think when communities have enough and is
willing to say, you know what, I think it's time
for radical change, even if that scares the hell out

(37:12):
of everyone but us. Yeah, and you you know, Minneapolis
has seen a number of protests in the not too
distant future against the police, against as a result of
the police and absolutely yeah killing black people. Um, when
what what was that? What was the moment? If there
was a moment when you were like, Oh, this one's different.
This isn't just gonna be people hanging out around a

(37:34):
precinct with signs until they get tired. Yeah, So, you know,
it's funny. I was thinking about this, and I was
looking back because I've been trying to really keep a
running journal and kind of a day by day calendar
of both the pandemic when that started and now the
uprisings that we were facing. And you know, I was
looking in the Tuesday. So Monday night that video kind

(37:56):
of went live and people here started really there was
talk UM by Tuesday though, I had gunn for a
hike at them at the River, which is right near
near the precinct. And you know, by the time I
got home at about five that night on TUESDA was
driving home, I drove down Hiawatha and was stopped by

(38:19):
probably five protesters UM and it was everybody. It wasn't
just um BLM activists. It was members of the South
Side community that lived there. It was members of UM
different groups that have come out form for different events,
whether it's like the city council, people from the powder

(38:39):
Horn area where you know in like the cut foods area.
Any you know, these different groups kind of started to coalesce,
and that was maybe three blocks from the precinct and
was kind of, you know, the beginning of this thing.
And by you know, by eight that night, about four
or five hours later, it was something already different. Um

(39:01):
the police were you could hear it, like I was
listening to police scanners. I have friends listening to police
scanners and you could hear it was different. The cops
sounded overwhelmed. I think that's the best the best I
can put it. And you know, from there on end,
you know, it was only a matter of time until
the precinct fell. And you know, by the time the

(39:24):
cops scattered out of their gated in little parking lot um,
the whole area had already turned in too. I mean,
the closest thing I can say it looked like the Maidan.
Everything I've ever seen from from Ukraine, you know, this
felt like that. You know, by by the time the

(39:46):
news really started picking up, that wasn't Unicorn riot or
some of the more personal like um level blogs, it
was already so you know, people were the anger was
so out in the forefront. There was just no way
it was going to stop. And that was the moment
I really knew that we were somewhere totally new. You know,

(40:09):
like we've seen protests, like you said here, we've seen
really tense conflicts between the police and the community, but this,
by that point was so far beyond anything we had
ever experienced that, you know, the minute that first rampart
got built and they started calling it the Battle of
Lake Um Lake in Minnie hahaha, or the Battle of

(40:32):
the of the Target, you know, jokingly, it was already
a thing. And that's what I and that's what I knew. Yeah,
and you're now living essentially in um not entirely post police,
but certainly post Minneapolis police. And you're definitely definitely post
Minneapolis police. You know, like I said, today's the first

(40:54):
day I've seen a cop and it wasn't a Minneapolis cop.
And and that's two weeks now, almost. We're we're really
we're we're two weeks and you know that, Um, it's
so weird because it's just it's normal. There's no outside okay,
and I should say normal in the context of the
right wing invasion that's going on simultaneously on the ground,

(41:16):
which isn't being talked about really, but there's that element
that's kind of it really confuses this other situation we're
dealing with. Well, can you elaborate a little bit on that. Yeah. Yeah, So,
like in the midst of the initial uprising, when the

(41:36):
precinct was burning, when the when people were kind of
commandeering goods from all over to help either protesters or
to build barricade walls. UM, there was also this other
side that was starting to be kind of noticed both
on social media and the police were hinting at it
kind of and and you know, it's been hard with

(41:57):
them because they don't say very much, but we also
know what we've seen, which is that a huge group
of kind of unidentified UM. I mean they're saying KKK.
The reality is it seems more like an insurgency force
built of a couple of different groups. UM. And they're
on the ground, and it's it's a very strange thing

(42:20):
that's happened here, you know. Um, day one, after the
actual outbreak of looting and rioting and burning here, there
was an influx people notice kind of happening of cars
that we notice without license plates. UM. And it sounds
really innocuous, but it's strange. You notice that in a

(42:41):
city like Minneapolis, for some reason, it just started happening.
And so you know by the time Friday night that
the National Guard was being kind of called out. Um.
You know, they we're reporting kind of openly that there
were groups of people causing problems. The president everyone else

(43:03):
has lied through their fucking teeth and said it was Antifa.
But the reality is we had boogie boys on the ground,
So we had the Boogaloo boys were here for sure. Yes,
we have pictures of them. I watch about it. I
watched them in person. Um. We also have, though, a
couple other groups that I am still trying to figure
out who they are, and I have photos of some

(43:24):
of them, but they were all foreign nationals. The two
that we confronted directly said they were Dutch and had
and had out of date Dutch press passes. Um. A
lot of the guys that have been caught here have
been caught with either some sort of media badge or
something that would approximate one. Um. There's just a lot
of a lot of people don't know about media badges.

(43:47):
But most journalists you just print them like you just
you just like there's nothing like there's not like a
centralized authority that issues your pretty badge. Is some cities
outside of maybe New York's City or l I where
they have press offices. Yeah, correct, And that's the thing.
And so you know, when when you confront someone who

(44:10):
you see driving a car with no license plates and
full of people, and they stop the car in the
middle of the street, get out and confront you as
to why you're taking photos, you know, stuff's going on.
And you know, I've spent a lot of my uh
twenties and early thirties studying and reading up on just

(44:31):
anything that kind of approximates what that looks like, whether
it's fascist, kind of um revolutionary stuff, to how the
spread of propaganda works and how that looks. And these
guys were the spookiest group of people I've ever encountered
in real life. And when you have that element um

(44:53):
and there are public you know, everyone on your social
media sphere is kind of saying, well, we're finding let's say,
jars of accelerants around town in bushes, or we're finding
rag soaked in gas. I mean, for example, my neighborhood
has one business in it and it's a lgbt Q

(45:13):
owned coffee shop. Two nights after the actual fires in
the main area stopped. It was lit on fire by
someone running down the street. You know. Like, there's stuff
that's happening, and I think it's a story that's going
to come out more fully as time passes, But it's
one that I think is important and extremely integral to

(45:35):
whatever the pushback that we're gonna see looks like I think,
you know, I think we have to be honest with
ourselves that the right is actually gonna probably look more
and more like an insurgency for us like this where
it's guys driving trucks, shooting randomly, lighting things on fire,
leaving KKK style notes, I mean truly like leaving notes

(45:56):
and neighborhoods and say we're watching you, We're gonna burn,
We're gonna burn you alive. I mean, you have a
very odd element mixed into this whole other revolutionary no
police things we're self policing in the midst of what
looks to be an insurgency campaign. So there are these
like very odd things going on. Um, and this isn't

(46:17):
just happening. I mean, Minneapolis, y'all are the epicenter of this,
but yesterday in Seattle, somebody tried to drive into a
crowd and then shot into the crowd. Somebody he was
a confirmed KKMBER. I believe there was definitely one that
was confirmed. I don't know where it was from because
there have been like twenty different cars that have driven okay,

(46:37):
so at least one of them confirmed KKK create KKK leader, like,
not just some low level leader. So I mean we
have to I think we need to. This is something
I've been thinking about for a long time. I think
we all have been. But there has to be a
conversation about what that is because that looks a lot
more like a far right Middle East stern terrorist campaign

(47:02):
than a traditional American conversation. Interesting that Antifa is the
one that they want to designate as a terrorist organization,
but that standard operating procedure from misinformation, you know, like
we're seeing we're seeing the worst of the worst when
it comes to just outright um manipulation of reality. And

(47:25):
I think, you know a lot of us know what
we're looking at, and a lot of people are starting to.
But I think this this whole thing that we're witnessing,
the uprising, the response is cracking. I think the neoliberal
shell a little bit. I don't think any I know

(47:45):
for myself, I never thought I would live to see
the day that the show shook. Yeah. Yeah, and one
of the most remarkable things of the last two weeks. Yeah,
it does unbelievable. And we kind of seemed to be
on the edge of everything, Like there's so much good
and bad news every day, Like just today, like the

(48:06):
police chief in Portland resigned after a bunch of police brutality.
Um Bennett, the head of the guy in the New
York Times editorial board who let a Senator Tom Cotton
right about murdering everybody who's protesting. That guy had to leave. Um.
You have Minneapolis with a veto proof majority of the
city council, like you know, trying to put an end

(48:28):
to the Minneapolis Police Department. At the same time, you've
got Seattle police using tear gas two nights in a
row after the mayor put in a moratorium on the
use of tear gas. I was gonna say, I believe
they didn't because they said they wouldn't write like that's
how this works now. We didn't do it because we
said we didn't. Don't believe your fit. Yeah, and what
the Portland Police has done is like, no, no, when

(48:49):
we said tear guess we just meant the the CS.
We can still use the O C tear gas because
it's like that that was the problem. Is the type
of the flavor of gas was the they're really splitting hairs.
But but that's the game. I think that's the game
now is split split the hairs as far as you can,
because otherwise they're gonna they've already lost control of the

(49:12):
narrative for the first time ever. I don't think anyone
in any position of power has a response to this
that isn't gonna look either contrived or racist. And that's
a very strange place to be for everyone who's used
to being able to get in on something and say, hey,
well maybe we can do something that's performative. As we
saw with like Chuck and Nancy this morning, that ship

(49:35):
doesn't fly anymore. We don't none of us care. It
just doesn't work. It looks cringe e as fun. That's
exactly what I said, And that's the reality. Like that's
the thing that we see. We're calling it as it
is now, and I think that that's a hard thing
for people to manage. I have never seen the right

(49:56):
be this quiet because they can't manage the percept part
of this, and that social engineering part is integral outside
of the racist part of things for them their survival.
And I don't know how you anyone has a pushback
mechanism against a popular uprising. Yeah. I mean you saw
Mitt Romney at a Black Lives Matter march yesterday. Yeah,

(50:20):
I mean even like yeah, like when you have everyone
not only saying like defund the police and things like that,
and being able to explain it to a right. So
many stories of people explaining that concept to their family
members who are pretty conservative and they say, like, and
then it made sense to them because it makes sense
all these people talking about this. And then like today,

(50:40):
Scott Walker tweeted, like defund the police or police reform.
I go with police reform, and it's like, okay, so
like that's the bare minimum. Now, oh my god, we
gotta do something police reform. The window moved so far
left so fast, I am whip. I have whiplash. Um

(51:03):
you know, like I think most of us were kind
of worried that we were gonna kind of march off
a cliff blindly into some weird flashes twilight zone because
we kind of had been and now it's just like,
uh yeah, bare minimum is uh reforms at at at
such a massive level, I don't think you can calm reform.
And the other direction is no, please, We're going to

(51:25):
figure out a better a better way, because there is
a better way. And I think what's interesting about all
of this and has struck me, like since the beginning
of the real transformation, during the kind of protests into
this movement, is people really are willing to put in

(51:48):
a lot of hard work to build something that works
for and reflects their community. And I think that that's
going to be, you know, that kind of thing. We're
never going to be able to go back, Like conversations
can't go back, just because the gravity of this has
pulled in so much more and it's unbelievable. And so

(52:13):
I'm kind of a little curious, you know. One of
the things that made me want to get you on here.
Um we were talking for a little bit sort of
when I was trying to get to Minneapolis before Portland's
broke out in riots. Um and in the weeks sin
or in the week and a half, however long, it's
been since. Um A lifetime, A lifetime, A lifetime. Yeah, Um,
you've started taking part in armed patrols of your neighborhood. Um,

(52:36):
And I wanted wanted you to talk a little bit
more about that, about like why y'all are doing that
and kind of what what the um, um, what sort
of purpose do you think that's going to serve as
things move forward? Well, so I live right in the
city essentially, like when the military was here, we're right
outside what they called the footprint, which I have feelings about,

(52:57):
but that's a different conversation. And you know, real blistically,
we didn't get messed with tons outside of that time
I said, um, where we had someone run up in
light a building on fire. Um, you know, outside of that,
we haven't had many issues. We've had people creeping around,
we've had weird stuff. But the community here started that

(53:17):
on Thursday night, I want to say, after things got
really heated. Um, we we or you know, they had
organized already probably like fifteen or twenty people, and then
it increased and increased again, and so there were a
number of people and it wasn't armed at that point,
and then it switched over to where a couple of
people were definitely ready to go, and things kind of
progressed from there, and now because things have calmed down,

(53:40):
we just we're kind of re evaluating. So it's interesting
up north of here, northern north Minneapolis, that's a wholly
different thing. What they're doing up there is I think magic.
They've they've figured out, I think, how to do a
nice balance of both with the community policing because they
got I mean, they were bombed, that's the best way

(54:02):
I can describe it. The two nights after the majority
of the action in the city and at the precinct,
they were attacked by these right wing extremists. And really
what happened up there is they decided we're not the
cops aren't coming. There's no one here to protect us
but ourselves, and they've really organized something that I think
is a model to explore. You know, what I'm doing

(54:22):
here and what's happened here where I am is I
think more of an experiment that started based on a
much more peaceful model. And because it's offensive, it's different.
You know, it's just such a different concept now that
you even are having a conversation like this where we're
talking about just people in the public patrolling or watching,

(54:46):
who are ready to go into action to stop someone
from doing something bad, and they're willing to put themselves
on the line. It was a strange time. You know.
We had armed national guards that would come out in
convoys of thirty or forty troops at a time, plus humbies,
plus support vehicles. So you have that, but then you

(55:06):
have armed citizens basically at night all night for the
a few nights during the major parts of the concerning
time right after that, when we were being told there
were white supremacists running around and there were random shootings
every night. I mean it, it's become something that feels
normal now, but like that's ten days. I think this

(55:26):
is a really easy thing for a lot of people
to understand when they're in that moment. But when you've
never been faced with the situation that your neighbors, who
are way more um at risk than you'll ever be,
are being threatened by people who really had no problem
hurting them, it changes the whole dynamic, you know. Like

(55:47):
for me, it was a simple why wouldn't I you know, like,
and there's so many things I think a lot of
people are going to say, well, you know, that's that's
extreme or something like that, And I think what what
I'm realizing is, Yeah, it looks extreme, but it looks
way less extreme than watching someone get choked to death

(56:10):
on the ground for eight minutes. And and frankly, my
neighborhood is sweet. In the neighborhoods who adopt this, I
think are gonna see I think we're gonna start to
see great numbers when it comes to drops in crime. Frankly,
like when you talk to people who have been here
as long as I have, in different parts of the city,

(56:31):
they've already said that they don't have issues like they
used to. Whether it's because the police were causing them
or whether it's because people respect a community that takes
care of itself, that's to be seen. It's an interesting thing.
And when you invest in your community and it's safety,
I think people are less likely to screw off because
they don't think you know, they feel like they're getting

(56:54):
something over on friends versus getting something over on the man. Yeah,
it's a weird thing like that. That shift alone is
I mean unbelievable. Yeah, Like I you know, I want
to I want to be able to say more, but
there's really it's just such a shocking and abrupt change.

(57:16):
It feels like it went from being a military like
dictatorship on the ground because our police really just our dicks,
as we all have seen, um, but to being something
that's just so different, but it doesn't feel any less safe.
You know, like your day just doesn't feel different. You

(57:38):
don't get parking tickets. I mean, you know there are
things like that, but like it's weird, like it's just
subtle stuff, but you notice it where you're just like, oh, okay, now,
does this feel like something that is sustainable? Absolutely? I think,
you know, I think that the question isn't it whether

(57:59):
it's sustainable, it's whether the system that we live in
can sustain us. And that's what we're seeing like right now.
I think they're gonna be major questions that come from
this about universal basic income, about giving people the dignity
to just live a freaking one and if they're doing
that kind of stuff for the community correctly compensated, how

(58:22):
do you make with the trade off here well? And
how do you how do you give people some freaking
just a chance, Like that's all we're asking for. I
think that's all anyone wants is a chance, and I
think that that's going to become more. You know, there's
this there's an economic component to this social movement and
revolution that is going to become more and more I

(58:45):
think important in the conversation about longevity, but also about
what it is actually that's built the systems we're talking about.
There's a lot going on here. Yeah, And you hear
it on the street, you know, like those first couple nights,
you hear people saying out loud, COVID may kill me.
I'm broke. What else do we have left to do? Yeah?

(59:07):
And what do we have to lose here? Exactly? This
ship has to change. Well, we have everything to gain. Like,
look at what we've done it, Look at what we've
done in two weeks. I mean, at this point, Pandora
has opened a box that's between the pandemic, shifting all
of the social norms and this it's a new world. Yeah,

(59:30):
And I think people are just realizing that, yeah, because
I mean, hell, we've been living in such a weird
thing that's just shifted than the whole thing again, it's
just it's bizarre. Yeah. Yeah, Like you know, like normally,
normally I would try and make some kind of clever.

(59:50):
Well reasons, I don't think there is one. I think
we're living through something that is literally so fluid that
none of my guesses mad Really, I don't think any
of us know what tomorrow brings. And I'm you know,
I'm totally cool with that. It's the first time, I
think in any of our lives where we can say,
you know what, it's all up in the air. It
could go any direction. Yeah, and it's kind of up

(01:00:12):
to everyone continuing to be active to start. You know,
at some point these the street protests, um will die down,
and there's there's a chance that they'll die down for
just a few weeks and then the police will murder
somebody else and they crop up again. Um. But it's, um,
this has to be a long haul, you know, like

(01:00:33):
the Montgomery bus boycott lasted over a year, you know,
like talking like this is a long term project now. Yeah,
And I think what we'll probably see obviously we're seeing
Minneapolis starting to experiment with like what if we just
get rid of our police department. I hope we'll see
at least a couple of other Like I'm I hope
we'll see that in Portland. I hope we'll see at
least a few other cities attempt something like that in

(01:00:53):
the next six months. And I think we will get
reforms in other places, and I hope that the examples
of the places who do get rid of their police
departments will lead to that happening more often. Like I
don't We're not going to have This isn't a situation
where we're going to have like the the entire order
overturned overnight. It's just not going to happen. The momentum

(01:01:15):
not there, the weaponry is not there, like whatever. Um.
But I end in reality, I don't think you could
pull that off here, Like there's just no there's no
on what's needed exactly. But I think there is consensus
that policing needs to change, and I think there's a
growing support for the idea that like, maybe we don't
need cops in the sense that cops have existed for

(01:01:36):
all of our lives. Yeah, I think that's accurate. I
think that's absolutely on on on the head. You know.
I think the people are just ready to try, you know,
like the American experiment. Man, like this is our experiment.
Let's try some cool, bold things like yeah, so let's
all try some cool bold things. Is a good good

(01:01:57):
note to end on. Um, do you have anything you
want to direct our audience towards, uh, in terms of donations,
in terms of you know, or if they've got an
LP you want to plug? No, actually, you know, I
really don't. Um, you know, I I'm on Twitter. I'm
trying to figure out how to kind of get get
some other things going. I'm gonna probably try and get

(01:02:18):
together my thoughts on on how propaganda's affected the arguments
that we're seeing now being brought forward, and I may
try and turn that into something, but that's kind of
in the planning phases. But you can find me a
brain not on yet on Twitter, and uh, you know,
I'm just kind of here right now. All right, Well, um, okay,
that's great. I think we've got us an interview here. Alright.

(01:02:40):
That does it for us today, guys. Thank you for listening,
and thank you for listening. You can check us out
online at Worst Year Pod, Instagram, Twitter, That's it. Those
are the options. Do it anything else you do and

(01:03:00):
we'll find out everything. So dull everything, so dump it's
not again. I tried, Daniel. Worst Year Ever is a
production of i heart Radio. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.