October 1, 2020 • 30 mins
In this midweek special, Hillary sits down with U.S. Senator and Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris to talk about their families, their shared admiration for Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and making history. And they laugh. A lot.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. Hi.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me. Both.
You and Me Both comes out every Tuesday, but I
couldn't wait to share this special bonus episode with you
because today I'm talking to U S. Senator and Democratic
(00:21):
nominee for Vice President, Kamala Harris. I first met Kamala
back when she was running to be the d A
in San Francisco. I knew her over the years when
she was d A, once she was Attorney General, and
I got very close to her sister, Maya Harris, who
(00:41):
was one of the senior advisors on my campaign. And
of course I'm thrilled that she is on the ticket
with Joe Biden. I know a little something about the
slings and arrows that have come her way in this role,
because it's hard to be first, hard to be first anything.
There's also, let's be honest, some sexism combined with racism.
(01:04):
But one thing I know is that Kamala is tough
and she can handle it all, and she will be
a vice president for all the people of our country.
It's an absolute delight to have her on the podcast. Hi, Hi, Hi,
Welcome to my brand new podcast. I know this is
so exciting. Well, I'm thrilled. I know how busy you are,
(01:28):
so we're gonna get right into it. I've been watching
you out on the trail. I love the fact that
you're out there and you're not only going to events,
you're you know, dancing with bands. You're really having a
good time, Kamala, and you know that's to me half
the battle. You know, get out there and be that
happy warrior that you've always been. I want to start by,
(01:51):
you know, talking about the experiences that led you to
be where you are today. Obviously your experiences is in
public service, in the public eye, but let's start before that.
Tell me and tell our listeners about you know, your childhood,
and especially your formidable mother. I love reading about her,
(02:15):
but I want to hear about her directly from you. Well, first,
let me say I'm just thrilled to be with you, Hillary,
and thank you for everything you are, everything you do,
everything about you inspires me in so many ways. I
can't begin to describe. So thank you so my mother.
I mean, let me start by saying that I've only
known incredible and strong women like my whole life. There's
(02:40):
like a whole collection of them who helped raise me.
And as you have often said, a village does it right. Um.
And so my mother, she was the eldest of my
grandparents children, four children, and you know, she grew up
at a time where she was expected to her accomplishments
would be to get married and have children. But she
(03:03):
wanted to study science and she wanted to cure cancer.
You don't know, lack of ambition there, she convinced my
grandfather that one of the best schools to learn was
u C. Berkeley, Without my grandfather knowing, actually she applied
(03:24):
and got accepted and then informed my grandfather that this
had happened. And this was in the nineteen fifties, and
he said to his daughter, who at the time was nineteen,
if this is what you want to do, then I
will not stand in your way. And so, having never
been to the United States, my mother got on a
(03:45):
plane at the age of nineteen by herself and arrived
in Berkeley, California. And immediately, because of how she was
raised and who she was, she just became attracted to
the civil rights movement that was starting to really evolved
in a very passionate way in Berkeley, and Oakland, California.
And you know, my mother was all of five feet.
(04:07):
I joked that if you ever met her, you would
have thought she was, you know, seven ft tall, but
she I don't actually don't know if she was exactly
five feet. She stood on her toes. Oh yeah, she
she But she had a huge presence and she raised us,
my sister Maya and I. She raised us with you know,
certain principles, and one was that it is your duty.
(04:31):
You know, not you're not being charitable or benevolent, it
is your duty to concern yourself with the condition of
other people and to help them. And so it was
never a debatable point. It was literally, you know, because
duty is you know, for those of us who feel
strongly about duty, it's not a choice. It is the
price you pay, if you want to think of it
as a price, but your responsibility for this place on
(04:53):
earth that you occupy. You know, there's a great line
from one of my mentors in life and work, marrying
Wright Edelman, who always would say, services the rent you
pay for being on this earth. Hand. I sense that
from you talking about your mom and when you think
about her being nineteen and the fifties, she lived through
(05:16):
the big transition in India. She saw the impact of
the non violent Gandhian movement, and so coming to Berkeley
and being attracted to, you know, the civil rights movement
would just be a continuation for her. There's so many
stories I could tell about her that have influenced who
(05:37):
I am. My mother was a fighter for women her
entire life. Her specialty was breast cancer, and you know,
before I was probably aware of it, I was hearing
her passion for the importance of women receiving dignity and
the health care system. And you know, it's hard to
think now, Kamala, but your mother had to have been
(06:00):
aware as she was doing her research into breast cancer
that until the nineteen eighties, experiments for breast cancer were
not even performed on women, And so she had to
fight for the rights of the people that she was
really advocating on behalf of Oh, it was profound. I'll
(06:23):
never forget one night she came home May and I
often we were what you call last key kids, right,
We'd come home after school and my mother would come
home hours later. But when we came home after school,
they were always fresh baked cookies. Oh my, but we
were never allowed to eat dinner until after Walter Cronkite.
(06:48):
Pretty good rule, that's how it all worked. But I
remember one night my mother came home and she was, oh, raging, match, raging,
raging because you see, and to your point, a full
mass ectomy had been performed on a woman and this person,
I don't know if it was a doctor, I don't
(07:09):
know who it was, but someone. Now this is gonna
be very vivid. So this maybe should be the disclaimer
for the audience. But on a metal tray, someone was
just walking around with this woman's breast. My mother was
raging mad because it gets to the point about the
(07:30):
dignity of women, right, and what she said, Now, this
is going to get even more vivid, but I'm going
to give it, she said, do you think that they
would have walked around with a man's you know what
without at least giving it the dignity of putting something
(07:51):
over it or doing right right. Oh, I love your mother.
I love your mother. I mean, you know, I spent
two years with your sister because MA was one of
my you know, senior advisers, and you know I loved
her and loved you. Now I love your mother and
it's you know, all all part of the family. Do
(08:13):
you think about how your mother mother you when you
think about your your step kids, you think about Cole
and Ella, you think about your nieces. Do you hear
sometimes your voice sounding like your mother? Often? Often? I'm
now at a point in my life where I have
fully embraced the fact that I've become my mother. I'm
(08:39):
not rejecting it. It's not surprising me any longer. It's
just what has happened. Well, you certainly inherited her love
of cooking. I have, and it really is one of
my joys. And it's you know, in each of us
has a way that we express our love for me.
Cooking is one of those things. And I love cooking
with the kids. Sunday family dinner. It's like Sunday family dinner.
(09:03):
There's no question that's what happens. You know, whoever is
in town comes over. You know, the kids help me cook,
and it's you know, sometimes, depending on what's happening in
my life, I'll start working on Sunday family dinner on Friday.
You know. You also did tell me in a in
a phone conversation recently you've been teaching your husband, Doug
to cook, yes, so let's talk about that. So I
(09:28):
remember our conversation just right after the pandemic hit, and
I was ironing and folding during our conversation. I'll never
forget that, because we started having chores. And one of
the things I realized about my husband that I had
not realized before the pandemic hit is that clearly his
mother never required him to clean his bedroom. So we
(09:50):
had to have a little conversation about that, including me
asking my mother in law why, And so then I realized,
as much as I love to cook, cooking lunch and
dinner seven days a week, it's a lot, right, And
so I we just had a conversation. I was like, honey,
(10:12):
I need you to We're gonna have to figure this out.
So he pulled the straws Wednesday and Saturday that would
be his days. And then he was trying different things
because you know, he was trying to be kind of
impressed me and be a bit ambitious. But it kind
of reached ahead when he was making something in the
cast iron skillet and we're in the apartment and the
fire alarm just started raging. The smoke was just I
(10:37):
could smell I started to smell it. I was I
was reading my briefing book. I remember those days, and
I started to smell it, and then I started to
see it. And then there I am with my briefing
book under the smoking detector, waving it back and forth, saying, Tom, Honey,
turn off this stough and um. So we got to
(11:00):
the point where now he agrees that he should just
have three things that he perfects and does well and
we don't need to experiment with anything else. I think
it makes perfect sense. We'll be back right after this
quick break. You know, during these pandemic days, you know,
people are discovering all sorts of things about their family members.
(11:23):
And you know, I think about you going to college,
going to Howard, then going to law school. What was
your first job out of law school? My first job
out of law school was in the Alameda County District
Attorney's office. And why did you decide to become an
assistant district attorney? You know, I was born in Oaklan, California,
(11:44):
which is at the heartbeat I think of Alameda County,
which is a very large county. And you know, Hillary,
there's not a black man, I know, be he a
relative or a friend who has not been the subject
of some form of racial profiling, unreasonable stop, or excessive force.
And I grew up understanding the impact of law enforcement
(12:07):
on the community in which I was raised, and I
knew that it needed to be fixed. I experienced it.
It was a lived experience, and I said to my family,
I said, you know, why is it that we traditionally
you know, when we want to change these systems were
on the outside. Shouldn't we also try and go on
the inside. And that's why I decided to could do
And you know, one could say I decided to go
(12:29):
up the rough side of the mountain, but and it
was about saying, look from the inside, we can have
an impact. And the impact was, you know, it was varied.
The impact included that I specialized for a long time
and child sexual assault cases that is so hard come alone.
I mean, I did some cases. I ran a legal
(12:49):
aid clinic. I was very active and legal services. I
would be appointed to cases by judges and those cases
were so difficult, and honestly, it's the worse of human
behavior because you are talking about children and the vast
majority of the cases we're talking about someone who's in
(13:09):
a position of trust with that child, right, And for me,
it was always about trying to figure out a way
to make the point that everyone deserves dignity in the system,
but also justice, and justice takes on many forms depending
on the injustice. I for a long time, you know,
(13:31):
worked on what we also needed to do around what
I called sexually exploited youth, but the system called teenage prostitutes,
which is that these girls mostly and boys would be
arrested and put in juvenile hall. Meanwhile they're being trafficked,
and we treat you know, John's and all of that
as though, you know, it's not a big deal. And
(13:52):
so I actually, during my years, you know, early years,
created a safe house in California, in San Francisco, so
that if these kids were picked up, that they would
go to the safe house, not to juvenile hall, and
they would be given support. And so many of them
were runaways, often thrown out of their homes or fleeing
(14:14):
abuse in their own home, right, exactly, all of that,
and we're calling them teenage prostitutes, you know. So it
was that work, it was the work of UM. I
created one of the first environmental justice units of a
d a's office in the country, because you know, I
saw that the community that you will not be surprised,
had a annual per capita income of families of fifteen
(14:37):
thousand dollars was also the community where all the dumping
was happening, right, And so taking on those polluters it
was the work of of saying that we need to also,
you'll appreciate this more than many. I think that we
have to incorporate the concept of redemption in what we
(14:57):
do in the criminal justice system. And it's a the
age old concept, right. It means essentially, you know, we
all will make mistakes, and for some perhaps that rises
to the level of being a crime. But it isn't
it the sign of ad just in a civil society
that we allow people a way back? And so I
created one of the first reentry initiatives in the country,
(15:19):
focused on predominantly young men who were arrested for drug
sales and getting them jobs and counseling, and a lot
of them were young fathers, and getting them parenting support
and then dismissing the charges against them. But you know,
these were challenging days. This was in the early two thousand's.
People literally called my program a hug a thug program,
but it ended up being a model and a model
(15:40):
for the country. You were really ahead of your time
in so many ways, both in Alameda County. Then when
you went on to be the District Attorney for San Francisco,
I think that's the first time I met you, and
you brought the same level of you know, positive energy
to what you wanted to see done in the d
(16:01):
A office. And then obviously you went on to be
elected statewide in California to be the Attorney General. And
you know, you've always, in my observation, tried to be
on the side of the underdog. You've always tried to
literally stand up for the dignity. And with the story
that you just told about your mother, I see the
(16:22):
through line and I so much appreciate that. And in
the criminal justice system, you're right, that's hard, and we've
learned a lot of tough lessons. I mean, obviously, you know,
there are bad guys and they've got to be punished,
and you have to make sure that happens. But for
the vast majority of people caught up in the criminal
justice system, there other and better and more dignified ways
(16:46):
to handle them. So when when you started your campaign
for president. I remember you and I sat down in
l a shortly before you made your decision. And now
I'm thrilled that you're the part he's vice presidential nominee.
I'm so excited for you. And I think we've heard
(17:06):
a little bit about you're getting the call from former
Vice President Biden, but maybe you could take us behind
the scenes about what happened when you did get the call. Well,
you know, we'd all been hearing that he was close
to making a decision, and you know, I've gone through
a process, so I knew i was on the list.
(17:27):
And then my team said, well, um, he's going to
call you today. They set up a call. They'd like
to set it up for today, So I said okay,
And then shortly thereafter, my team said, he wants to
do a zoom And you know how you have zoom days,
and you have those days that are not I do
and you know, presumed days you gotta do your hair.
(17:49):
You got exactly exactly, It's like it's another two hours,
it could be right, So and this particular day was
not a zoom day. Couldn't we just do a call?
You know, exactly exactly, and so I had to do
some really quick, fancy footwork and and Doug was home
(18:12):
because of course we're all working from home, and so
we were pretty much non functional until you know, the
the allotted time for the call, and so I went
into our makeshift zoom room and Doug, I thought, was
in the kitchen. So then I took the call. And
you know, and you have to hand it to Joe
and it's really it's it's part of what I love
(18:33):
about his character and his nature. Immediately at the beginning
of the call Hillary, he went right in there and said,
let's do this together. You know, he didn't build up
to it, he didn't create the tension in it. He didn't,
you know, talk for a while and then say said,
he literally just right away, and obviously I was deeply
humbled and honored. And he got Jill on his cell phone.
(18:56):
She was at an event and so then she was
on speaker as he and I were on the zoom.
And then she and Doug had bonded during the campaign
during the primary. I love seeing them together. They're really
they've been traveling together, they've been and um, and so
she said, well, where is Doug and I, you know,
shouted out his name, but of course Doug was actually
airplanted on the other side of the door for him
(19:20):
to come in. And he came in and we had
the best conversation, just the four of us. And you know,
immediately that thereafter started packing and went to Delaware. The
next morning, we're taking a quick break stay with us.
I love the scene of you know, Doug and Jill
(19:42):
out there and you and Joe joined, They're having a
good time. It just looked right. So you haven't a
debate coming up on October seven where you're facing off
against Vice President Mike Pence. How are you preparing? What's
that feeling like? You know, it's some the difference between
this debate and the debates and the primary are you know,
(20:05):
many and in particular that then it was mostly about
speaking up about my position on various issues as compared
to my colleagues on the stage. This time it will
be about, you know, requiring some level of knowledge, if
not mastery, of Joe's record, the Vice President, Mike Pence's record,
Trump's record, and then of course defending my own record.
(20:27):
So that's different in terms of the process. But I
guess the biggest thing, just to be candid with you
is to be prepared for what is I think very
likely to be a series of untruths. I think you
should be prepared, Yes, I think you should also be
prepared for the slights, the efforts to diminish you, um
(20:50):
you personally, you as a woman who's about to be
our next vice president. So I do think that there
will be a lot of maneuvering the other side to
try to put you in a box. It's on some
levels surreal in terms of it all, and I don't
necessarily want to be the fact checker. At the same time,
(21:14):
you know, depending on how far he goes with whatever
he does, you know he's gonna have to be accountable
for what he says well, and you know he and
Trump will say anything and assert anything like what a
great job we did on the coronavirus, and you know
people are sitting there going what is he talking about?
But you will be well prepared and before I don't
(21:35):
know exactly the timing, but I think even before the debate,
you may have a chance to be on the Judiciary
committee examining this latest nominee to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
So you are really in an unusual historic position, the
candidate for vice president who's a sitting senator on the
(21:56):
Senate Judiciary Committee, questioning Judge me Cony Barrett. How does that,
you know, feel to you? And do you have any
thoughts about, you know, losing Ruth Bader Ginsburg and watching
you know, this president and the Republicans under McConnell, you know,
trying to force through a confirmation in the face of
(22:17):
an election just weeks away. You know, I was seated
while she layand state just you know, a few days ago,
and it's something I know you knew her and your
story and her story are very intertwined. I looked at
that casket, Hillary, and you know, she was such as
(22:38):
in size small, and I looked at that casket and
there was, without any question and inverse relationship between her
size and her stature. Oh that's great. That's a great way.
I mean, and I and I just couldn't help but
think about the life that she lived, and you know,
I think it does a disservice to suggest us that
(23:00):
she just gained popularity, you know, after the notorious RBG
kind of moniker, because it was her whole life, her
whole life, and she did what you and I know
is required of lawyers who are fighting for civil rights.
She built up a pathway for so many women, and
she did it brick by brick, case by case. She
(23:25):
had the patients and the foresight and the fortitude to
build it up and see it through. That's exactly right, right,
exactly what a life we lived. It was interesting. The rabbi,
and speaking that day as she lay in state, said
along the lines of she earned the right to rest
(23:47):
in peace. Right. Well, you know, Bill and I went
to the Supreme Court to pay our respects there, and
you know we had a lot of time to talk
before we got there about the impact that she made.
And your description is so on point, because when she
(24:07):
started there was no guarantee. She saw wrongs that she
wanted to help rectify, and she was in pursuit of
justice and equality, plain and simple under the Constitution, and
she wanted to make sure that under the fourteenth Amendment,
disadvantage discrimination based on sex would also be part of
(24:28):
the scrutiny that courts were supposed to give to any
discrimination of any kind based on race. Right. And so
when I think of her, I think of her as
a mighty warrior, even though she was, as you rightly say,
you know, a petite woman, but a woman with enormous
energy and conviction that carried her through. You know, she's
(24:51):
now well known for her dissents, which means that she
lost a lot of important cases. But I remember her
saying once that she'd hoped that her descents would serve
as you know, a guiding light to future courts when
they saw the injustice that had remained because of the
majority opinion. So I really like the way you've described her.
(25:13):
And I know you've got to get back on the
campaign trail, so I can't keep you much longer, but
you know, when you want to stay and talk to
you forever, that would be fine with me. But I
know what it's like to, you know, have nervous, nervous people,
you know, standing there pacing, you know, their heart beating.
(25:39):
Let's end on by wrapping up Justice Ginsburg and your journey.
You know, she broke a lot of barriers for women,
and we have a lot of barriers, as you know
so well. You know that are are still before us.
But I believe you're on the brink of putting you know,
one of the biggest cracks in that glass ceiling. How
(25:59):
does it feel for you, Kamala, Because I was thinking
about Ruth Vader Ginsburg when she used to say, you know,
what's the difference between an accountant in Brooklyn and the
Supreme Court justice one generation? You know what's the difference
between a committed young scientist and the next vice president
(26:25):
one generation? Reflect on that for me, you know both
the responsibility, but you know the pure joy of going
where no one's gone before. I mean, you can speak
volumes about this in terms of your personal experience, well sure,
but it's building on it. It's like what you're saying
with Ruth, It's like one brick at a time. And
(26:46):
you know, my experience I think has you know, paved
the way for others. Uh, And that any question, without
any question. Your experience has paved the way for me
and so many others without any question. But we have
to keep going. Yeah, and you have to keep going.
But you know, one of the things that you do,
among the many things, is you have always I will
(27:08):
speak from myself, encouraged me and just been so supportive
with advice, with just with warmth, and as you know,
none of us achieve these these moments, and none of
us achieve our success without people who believe in us.
And so in that way, that's very humbling because there
(27:29):
are a lot of folks who are part of this moment.
There is that village. Yes, really it is, and it
is it continues throughout your life. But I do also
feel the weight of responsibility. You know, as my mother
would say, you may be the first to do many things.
Make sure you're not the last. I love that. Keep
those doors open, I mean, and that's what you do. Hillary,
(27:51):
You really do. You have earned the right to just
say I'm done, have fun with it everyone. I've beautiful
grand babies. I'm good. That's true, I do, and you
keep giving and I just I can't not say that
because it needs to be said, and I want to
say it. It's it's among the many things that are
(28:13):
very special about you. That is one of them. Well,
thank you, my friend, and I'm looking forward to the debate,
I'm looking forward to the Judiciary Committee, I'm looking forward
to the rest of the campaign, and I am really
looking forward to seeing you stand up there and get
sworn in as the next vice president of the United States.
(28:33):
So thank you. For taking some time to join me
on You and Me Both today and take good care
of yourself. We really need you, my friend. Thank you, Hillary,
It's great to be with you. Bye bye bye. You
and Me Both is brought to you by my Heart Radio.
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(28:57):
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(29:21):
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(29:42):
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Two
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. Hi.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me. Both.
You and Me Both comes out every Tuesday, but I
couldn't wait to share this special bonus episode with you
because today I'm talking to U S. Senator and Democratic
(00:21):
nominee for Vice President, Kamala Harris. I first met Kamala
back when she was running to be the d A
in San Francisco. I knew her over the years when
she was d A, once she was Attorney General, and
I got very close to her sister, Maya Harris, who
(00:41):
was one of the senior advisors on my campaign. And
of course I'm thrilled that she is on the ticket
with Joe Biden. I know a little something about the
slings and arrows that have come her way in this role,
because it's hard to be first, hard to be first anything.
There's also, let's be honest, some sexism combined with racism.
(01:04):
But one thing I know is that Kamala is tough
and she can handle it all, and she will be
a vice president for all the people of our country.
It's an absolute delight to have her on the podcast. Hi, Hi, Hi,
Welcome to my brand new podcast. I know this is
so exciting. Well, I'm thrilled. I know how busy you are,
(01:28):
so we're gonna get right into it. I've been watching
you out on the trail. I love the fact that
you're out there and you're not only going to events,
you're you know, dancing with bands. You're really having a
good time, Kamala, and you know that's to me half
the battle. You know, get out there and be that
happy warrior that you've always been. I want to start by,
(01:51):
you know, talking about the experiences that led you to
be where you are today. Obviously your experiences is in
public service, in the public eye, but let's start before that.
Tell me and tell our listeners about you know, your childhood,
and especially your formidable mother. I love reading about her,
(02:15):
but I want to hear about her directly from you. Well, first,
let me say I'm just thrilled to be with you, Hillary,
and thank you for everything you are, everything you do,
everything about you inspires me in so many ways. I
can't begin to describe. So thank you so my mother.
I mean, let me start by saying that I've only
known incredible and strong women like my whole life. There's
(02:40):
like a whole collection of them who helped raise me.
And as you have often said, a village does it right. Um.
And so my mother, she was the eldest of my
grandparents children, four children, and you know, she grew up
at a time where she was expected to her accomplishments
would be to get married and have children. But she
(03:03):
wanted to study science and she wanted to cure cancer.
You don't know, lack of ambition there, she convinced my
grandfather that one of the best schools to learn was
u C. Berkeley, Without my grandfather knowing, actually she applied
(03:24):
and got accepted and then informed my grandfather that this
had happened. And this was in the nineteen fifties, and
he said to his daughter, who at the time was nineteen,
if this is what you want to do, then I
will not stand in your way. And so, having never
been to the United States, my mother got on a
(03:45):
plane at the age of nineteen by herself and arrived
in Berkeley, California. And immediately, because of how she was
raised and who she was, she just became attracted to
the civil rights movement that was starting to really evolved
in a very passionate way in Berkeley, and Oakland, California.
And you know, my mother was all of five feet.
(04:07):
I joked that if you ever met her, you would
have thought she was, you know, seven ft tall, but
she I don't actually don't know if she was exactly
five feet. She stood on her toes. Oh yeah, she
she But she had a huge presence and she raised us,
my sister Maya and I. She raised us with you know,
certain principles, and one was that it is your duty.
(04:31):
You know, not you're not being charitable or benevolent, it
is your duty to concern yourself with the condition of
other people and to help them. And so it was
never a debatable point. It was literally, you know, because
duty is you know, for those of us who feel
strongly about duty, it's not a choice. It is the
price you pay, if you want to think of it
as a price, but your responsibility for this place on
(04:53):
earth that you occupy. You know, there's a great line
from one of my mentors in life and work, marrying
Wright Edelman, who always would say, services the rent you
pay for being on this earth. Hand. I sense that
from you talking about your mom and when you think
about her being nineteen and the fifties, she lived through
(05:16):
the big transition in India. She saw the impact of
the non violent Gandhian movement, and so coming to Berkeley
and being attracted to, you know, the civil rights movement
would just be a continuation for her. There's so many
stories I could tell about her that have influenced who
(05:37):
I am. My mother was a fighter for women her
entire life. Her specialty was breast cancer, and you know,
before I was probably aware of it, I was hearing
her passion for the importance of women receiving dignity and
the health care system. And you know, it's hard to
think now, Kamala, but your mother had to have been
(06:00):
aware as she was doing her research into breast cancer
that until the nineteen eighties, experiments for breast cancer were
not even performed on women, And so she had to
fight for the rights of the people that she was
really advocating on behalf of Oh, it was profound. I'll
(06:23):
never forget one night she came home May and I
often we were what you call last key kids, right,
We'd come home after school and my mother would come
home hours later. But when we came home after school,
they were always fresh baked cookies. Oh my, but we
were never allowed to eat dinner until after Walter Cronkite.
(06:48):
Pretty good rule, that's how it all worked. But I
remember one night my mother came home and she was, oh, raging, match, raging,
raging because you see, and to your point, a full
mass ectomy had been performed on a woman and this person,
I don't know if it was a doctor, I don't
(07:09):
know who it was, but someone. Now this is gonna
be very vivid. So this maybe should be the disclaimer
for the audience. But on a metal tray, someone was
just walking around with this woman's breast. My mother was
raging mad because it gets to the point about the
(07:30):
dignity of women, right, and what she said, Now, this
is going to get even more vivid, but I'm going
to give it, she said, do you think that they
would have walked around with a man's you know what
without at least giving it the dignity of putting something
(07:51):
over it or doing right right. Oh, I love your mother.
I love your mother. I mean, you know, I spent
two years with your sister because MA was one of
my you know, senior advisers, and you know I loved
her and loved you. Now I love your mother and
it's you know, all all part of the family. Do
(08:13):
you think about how your mother mother you when you
think about your your step kids, you think about Cole
and Ella, you think about your nieces. Do you hear
sometimes your voice sounding like your mother? Often? Often? I'm
now at a point in my life where I have
fully embraced the fact that I've become my mother. I'm
(08:39):
not rejecting it. It's not surprising me any longer. It's
just what has happened. Well, you certainly inherited her love
of cooking. I have, and it really is one of
my joys. And it's you know, in each of us
has a way that we express our love for me.
Cooking is one of those things. And I love cooking
with the kids. Sunday family dinner. It's like Sunday family dinner.
(09:03):
There's no question that's what happens. You know, whoever is
in town comes over. You know, the kids help me cook,
and it's you know, sometimes, depending on what's happening in
my life, I'll start working on Sunday family dinner on Friday.
You know. You also did tell me in a in
a phone conversation recently you've been teaching your husband, Doug
to cook, yes, so let's talk about that. So I
(09:28):
remember our conversation just right after the pandemic hit, and
I was ironing and folding during our conversation. I'll never
forget that, because we started having chores. And one of
the things I realized about my husband that I had
not realized before the pandemic hit is that clearly his
mother never required him to clean his bedroom. So we
(09:50):
had to have a little conversation about that, including me
asking my mother in law why, And so then I realized,
as much as I love to cook, cooking lunch and
dinner seven days a week, it's a lot, right, And
so I we just had a conversation. I was like, honey,
(10:12):
I need you to We're gonna have to figure this out.
So he pulled the straws Wednesday and Saturday that would
be his days. And then he was trying different things
because you know, he was trying to be kind of
impressed me and be a bit ambitious. But it kind
of reached ahead when he was making something in the
cast iron skillet and we're in the apartment and the
fire alarm just started raging. The smoke was just I
(10:37):
could smell I started to smell it. I was I
was reading my briefing book. I remember those days, and
I started to smell it, and then I started to
see it. And then there I am with my briefing
book under the smoking detector, waving it back and forth, saying, Tom, Honey,
turn off this stough and um. So we got to
(11:00):
the point where now he agrees that he should just
have three things that he perfects and does well and
we don't need to experiment with anything else. I think
it makes perfect sense. We'll be back right after this
quick break. You know, during these pandemic days, you know,
people are discovering all sorts of things about their family members.
(11:23):
And you know, I think about you going to college,
going to Howard, then going to law school. What was
your first job out of law school? My first job
out of law school was in the Alameda County District
Attorney's office. And why did you decide to become an
assistant district attorney? You know, I was born in Oaklan, California,
(11:44):
which is at the heartbeat I think of Alameda County,
which is a very large county. And you know, Hillary,
there's not a black man, I know, be he a
relative or a friend who has not been the subject
of some form of racial profiling, unreasonable stop, or excessive force.
And I grew up understanding the impact of law enforcement
(12:07):
on the community in which I was raised, and I
knew that it needed to be fixed. I experienced it.
It was a lived experience, and I said to my family,
I said, you know, why is it that we traditionally
you know, when we want to change these systems were
on the outside. Shouldn't we also try and go on
the inside. And that's why I decided to could do
And you know, one could say I decided to go
(12:29):
up the rough side of the mountain, but and it
was about saying, look from the inside, we can have
an impact. And the impact was, you know, it was varied.
The impact included that I specialized for a long time
and child sexual assault cases that is so hard come alone.
I mean, I did some cases. I ran a legal
(12:49):
aid clinic. I was very active and legal services. I
would be appointed to cases by judges and those cases
were so difficult, and honestly, it's the worse of human
behavior because you are talking about children and the vast
majority of the cases we're talking about someone who's in
(13:09):
a position of trust with that child, right, And for me,
it was always about trying to figure out a way
to make the point that everyone deserves dignity in the system,
but also justice, and justice takes on many forms depending
on the injustice. I for a long time, you know,
(13:31):
worked on what we also needed to do around what
I called sexually exploited youth, but the system called teenage prostitutes,
which is that these girls mostly and boys would be
arrested and put in juvenile hall. Meanwhile they're being trafficked,
and we treat you know, John's and all of that
as though, you know, it's not a big deal. And
(13:52):
so I actually, during my years, you know, early years,
created a safe house in California, in San Francisco, so
that if these kids were picked up, that they would
go to the safe house, not to juvenile hall, and
they would be given support. And so many of them
were runaways, often thrown out of their homes or fleeing
(14:14):
abuse in their own home, right, exactly, all of that,
and we're calling them teenage prostitutes, you know. So it
was that work, it was the work of UM. I
created one of the first environmental justice units of a
d a's office in the country, because you know, I
saw that the community that you will not be surprised,
had a annual per capita income of families of fifteen
(14:37):
thousand dollars was also the community where all the dumping
was happening, right, And so taking on those polluters it
was the work of of saying that we need to also,
you'll appreciate this more than many. I think that we
have to incorporate the concept of redemption in what we
(14:57):
do in the criminal justice system. And it's a the
age old concept, right. It means essentially, you know, we
all will make mistakes, and for some perhaps that rises
to the level of being a crime. But it isn't
it the sign of ad just in a civil society
that we allow people a way back? And so I
created one of the first reentry initiatives in the country,
(15:19):
focused on predominantly young men who were arrested for drug
sales and getting them jobs and counseling, and a lot
of them were young fathers, and getting them parenting support
and then dismissing the charges against them. But you know,
these were challenging days. This was in the early two thousand's.
People literally called my program a hug a thug program,
but it ended up being a model and a model
(15:40):
for the country. You were really ahead of your time
in so many ways, both in Alameda County. Then when
you went on to be the District Attorney for San Francisco,
I think that's the first time I met you, and
you brought the same level of you know, positive energy
to what you wanted to see done in the d
(16:01):
A office. And then obviously you went on to be
elected statewide in California to be the Attorney General. And
you know, you've always, in my observation, tried to be
on the side of the underdog. You've always tried to
literally stand up for the dignity. And with the story
that you just told about your mother, I see the
(16:22):
through line and I so much appreciate that. And in
the criminal justice system, you're right, that's hard, and we've
learned a lot of tough lessons. I mean, obviously, you know,
there are bad guys and they've got to be punished,
and you have to make sure that happens. But for
the vast majority of people caught up in the criminal
justice system, there other and better and more dignified ways
(16:46):
to handle them. So when when you started your campaign
for president. I remember you and I sat down in
l a shortly before you made your decision. And now
I'm thrilled that you're the part he's vice presidential nominee.
I'm so excited for you. And I think we've heard
(17:06):
a little bit about you're getting the call from former
Vice President Biden, but maybe you could take us behind
the scenes about what happened when you did get the call. Well,
you know, we'd all been hearing that he was close
to making a decision, and you know, I've gone through
a process, so I knew i was on the list.
(17:27):
And then my team said, well, um, he's going to
call you today. They set up a call. They'd like
to set it up for today, So I said okay,
And then shortly thereafter, my team said, he wants to
do a zoom And you know how you have zoom days,
and you have those days that are not I do
and you know, presumed days you gotta do your hair.
(17:49):
You got exactly exactly, It's like it's another two hours,
it could be right, So and this particular day was
not a zoom day. Couldn't we just do a call?
You know, exactly exactly, and so I had to do
some really quick, fancy footwork and and Doug was home
(18:12):
because of course we're all working from home, and so
we were pretty much non functional until you know, the
the allotted time for the call, and so I went
into our makeshift zoom room and Doug, I thought, was
in the kitchen. So then I took the call. And
you know, and you have to hand it to Joe
and it's really it's it's part of what I love
(18:33):
about his character and his nature. Immediately at the beginning
of the call Hillary, he went right in there and said,
let's do this together. You know, he didn't build up
to it, he didn't create the tension in it. He didn't,
you know, talk for a while and then say said,
he literally just right away, and obviously I was deeply
humbled and honored. And he got Jill on his cell phone.
(18:56):
She was at an event and so then she was
on speaker as he and I were on the zoom.
And then she and Doug had bonded during the campaign
during the primary. I love seeing them together. They're really
they've been traveling together, they've been and um, and so
she said, well, where is Doug and I, you know,
shouted out his name, but of course Doug was actually
airplanted on the other side of the door for him
(19:20):
to come in. And he came in and we had
the best conversation, just the four of us. And you know,
immediately that thereafter started packing and went to Delaware. The
next morning, we're taking a quick break stay with us.
I love the scene of you know, Doug and Jill
(19:42):
out there and you and Joe joined, They're having a
good time. It just looked right. So you haven't a
debate coming up on October seven where you're facing off
against Vice President Mike Pence. How are you preparing? What's
that feeling like? You know, it's some the difference between
this debate and the debates and the primary are you know,
(20:05):
many and in particular that then it was mostly about
speaking up about my position on various issues as compared
to my colleagues on the stage. This time it will
be about, you know, requiring some level of knowledge, if
not mastery, of Joe's record, the Vice President, Mike Pence's record,
Trump's record, and then of course defending my own record.
(20:27):
So that's different in terms of the process. But I
guess the biggest thing, just to be candid with you
is to be prepared for what is I think very
likely to be a series of untruths. I think you
should be prepared, Yes, I think you should also be
prepared for the slights, the efforts to diminish you, um
(20:50):
you personally, you as a woman who's about to be
our next vice president. So I do think that there
will be a lot of maneuvering the other side to
try to put you in a box. It's on some
levels surreal in terms of it all, and I don't
necessarily want to be the fact checker. At the same time,
(21:14):
you know, depending on how far he goes with whatever
he does, you know he's gonna have to be accountable
for what he says well, and you know he and
Trump will say anything and assert anything like what a
great job we did on the coronavirus, and you know
people are sitting there going what is he talking about?
But you will be well prepared and before I don't
(21:35):
know exactly the timing, but I think even before the debate,
you may have a chance to be on the Judiciary
committee examining this latest nominee to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
So you are really in an unusual historic position, the
candidate for vice president who's a sitting senator on the
(21:56):
Senate Judiciary Committee, questioning Judge me Cony Barrett. How does that,
you know, feel to you? And do you have any
thoughts about, you know, losing Ruth Bader Ginsburg and watching
you know, this president and the Republicans under McConnell, you know,
trying to force through a confirmation in the face of
(22:17):
an election just weeks away. You know, I was seated
while she layand state just you know, a few days ago,
and it's something I know you knew her and your
story and her story are very intertwined. I looked at
that casket, Hillary, and you know, she was such as
(22:38):
in size small, and I looked at that casket and
there was, without any question and inverse relationship between her
size and her stature. Oh that's great. That's a great way.
I mean, and I and I just couldn't help but
think about the life that she lived, and you know,
I think it does a disservice to suggest us that
(23:00):
she just gained popularity, you know, after the notorious RBG
kind of moniker, because it was her whole life, her
whole life, and she did what you and I know
is required of lawyers who are fighting for civil rights.
She built up a pathway for so many women, and
she did it brick by brick, case by case. She
(23:25):
had the patients and the foresight and the fortitude to
build it up and see it through. That's exactly right, right,
exactly what a life we lived. It was interesting. The rabbi,
and speaking that day as she lay in state, said
along the lines of she earned the right to rest
(23:47):
in peace. Right. Well, you know, Bill and I went
to the Supreme Court to pay our respects there, and
you know we had a lot of time to talk
before we got there about the impact that she made.
And your description is so on point, because when she
(24:07):
started there was no guarantee. She saw wrongs that she
wanted to help rectify, and she was in pursuit of
justice and equality, plain and simple under the Constitution, and
she wanted to make sure that under the fourteenth Amendment,
disadvantage discrimination based on sex would also be part of
(24:28):
the scrutiny that courts were supposed to give to any
discrimination of any kind based on race. Right. And so
when I think of her, I think of her as
a mighty warrior, even though she was, as you rightly say,
you know, a petite woman, but a woman with enormous
energy and conviction that carried her through. You know, she's
(24:51):
now well known for her dissents, which means that she
lost a lot of important cases. But I remember her
saying once that she'd hoped that her descents would serve
as you know, a guiding light to future courts when
they saw the injustice that had remained because of the
majority opinion. So I really like the way you've described her.
(25:13):
And I know you've got to get back on the
campaign trail, so I can't keep you much longer, but
you know, when you want to stay and talk to
you forever, that would be fine with me. But I
know what it's like to, you know, have nervous, nervous people,
you know, standing there pacing, you know, their heart beating.
(25:39):
Let's end on by wrapping up Justice Ginsburg and your journey.
You know, she broke a lot of barriers for women,
and we have a lot of barriers, as you know
so well. You know that are are still before us.
But I believe you're on the brink of putting you know,
one of the biggest cracks in that glass ceiling. How
(25:59):
does it feel for you, Kamala, Because I was thinking
about Ruth Vader Ginsburg when she used to say, you know,
what's the difference between an accountant in Brooklyn and the
Supreme Court justice one generation? You know what's the difference
between a committed young scientist and the next vice president
(26:25):
one generation? Reflect on that for me, you know both
the responsibility, but you know the pure joy of going
where no one's gone before. I mean, you can speak
volumes about this in terms of your personal experience, well sure,
but it's building on it. It's like what you're saying
with Ruth, It's like one brick at a time. And
(26:46):
you know, my experience I think has you know, paved
the way for others. Uh, And that any question, without
any question. Your experience has paved the way for me
and so many others without any question. But we have
to keep going. Yeah, and you have to keep going.
But you know, one of the things that you do,
among the many things, is you have always I will
(27:08):
speak from myself, encouraged me and just been so supportive
with advice, with just with warmth, and as you know,
none of us achieve these these moments, and none of
us achieve our success without people who believe in us.
And so in that way, that's very humbling because there
(27:29):
are a lot of folks who are part of this moment.
There is that village. Yes, really it is, and it
is it continues throughout your life. But I do also
feel the weight of responsibility. You know, as my mother
would say, you may be the first to do many things.
Make sure you're not the last. I love that. Keep
those doors open, I mean, and that's what you do. Hillary,
(27:51):
You really do. You have earned the right to just
say I'm done, have fun with it everyone. I've beautiful
grand babies. I'm good. That's true, I do, and you
keep giving and I just I can't not say that
because it needs to be said, and I want to
say it. It's it's among the many things that are
(28:13):
very special about you. That is one of them. Well,
thank you, my friend, and I'm looking forward to the debate,
I'm looking forward to the Judiciary Committee, I'm looking forward
to the rest of the campaign, and I am really
looking forward to seeing you stand up there and get
sworn in as the next vice president of the United States.
(28:33):
So thank you. For taking some time to join me
on You and Me Both today and take good care
of yourself. We really need you, my friend. Thank you, Hillary,
It's great to be with you. Bye bye bye. You
and Me Both is brought to you by my Heart Radio.
We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help
(28:57):
from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki e Too, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson,
Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorrow. Our
engineer is Zach McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray.
If you like You and Me Both, don't keep it
to yourself, tell a friend. You can subscribe to You
(29:21):
and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, leave
us a review. I'd really appreciate it. We'd love to
hear from you, so send us your questions, comments or
ideas for future shows at You and Me Both pod
at gmail dot com. We'll be back with our regular
(29:42):
episode on Tuesday. My conversation with two other phenomenal leaders,
Gloria Steinhum and Dr Mona Hannah Aticia. Don't miss it.
Two
Host
Hillary Clinton
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