March 21, 2024 • 31 mins
This week's caller has a parent who is lashing out in rage in response to an affair that occurred decades earlier, causing anxiety and stress in not only the partner who committed the affair, but the rest of the family. Nedra gives some insight on how this behavior may have manifested.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, listeners, welcome back. I'm Nedra Glover to WIB and
you need to hear this. In our relationships, we may
not notice when we are acting out resentment, and we
might not even know what it feels like to be
resentful of things that have happened in our relationship. But
(00:24):
today we will listen to a call that is rooted
in resentment. I want you to think of situations when
someone has harmed you and you didn't talk about it
in the relationship, and you continue to be in those relationships.
It's not that we can't move through situations that occur
(00:48):
in our relationships, but it is really important that we
work on the repair of those things. And it's important
that we talk about the cost of certain things happening
in our relationships. Sometimes we don't want to move on,
and sometimes we do. But bring that to the relationship.
(01:08):
Don't keep it to yourself. It's not your stuff. If
it's impacting you because of this other person, it is
a relationship issue.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Hello. So my parents have been married for fifty one
years now and are in their early seventies. Over the
past six years, my mom has been having bouts of
rage that have been increasing in frequency, and anger. This
rage is directed at past transgressions and trauma from my
dad early in their marriage, from an on again, off
again affair that spanned about eight years.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
My dad was a binge drinker.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I'd consider him an alcoholic, but has been clean for
decades minus one or two slip ups during these rage bouts.
My mom is not someone I know, and she has
exhibited nasty, abusive behavior not only towards my father, but
my brothers and I also, example being, she made prints
of a photo she saved of this woman and put
(02:04):
them in picture frames all over the house. She sent
me a text photo and said my haircut resembled the woman.
She never apologizes for her actions, anger or behavior. She
also falls into a depression and we'll not speak to
us for however long or respond to texts.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
This is the resentment we were talking about. When we
don't address things, it may take years for those things
to come up. We think that we are saving the
relationship by sitting with this stuff, by stewing in our
emotions without trying to bring this other person in. And
(02:49):
here it is, you know, many years later, and this
person's mom is like, you know what, this stuff happened?
To me, no matter how many years ago it happened,
and I am upset. I was upset then and I'm
upset now. And maybe because of the father's alcoholism, he
(03:09):
wasn't willing to be accountable and couldn't accept what was
happening at that time. But certainly now you know he's
able to listen, and you know he's not drinking anymore,
and it sounds like he's taking some of this by
staying in the relationship. So now she's able to say,
now I can hold you accountable. All of those years ago,
(03:30):
I had to keep it to myself. But I am angry,
and I felt that way for so many years. One
of the things that I think we should wonder about
if we are experiencing resentment, either for allowing something in
a relationship, being such a caring person that we're overgiving,
(03:54):
having some issue with another person. When we're experiencing resentment,
we have to explore what's under that.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Am I sad?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Am? I disappointed? Am I angry? What is going on?
What's fueling this resentment? Often I find that it is
a mixture of disappointment, sadness, and anger, right, like you know,
But if we could just prioritize what is the biggest
(04:25):
feeling I'm dealing with right now. I am disappointed that
this person who I love and who I'm still with
had this other relationship. I feel betrayed and even though
they're here now, I had to share a part of
(04:46):
them for whatever length of time. And when we feel this,
what do I want to do? Not how do I
want to continue to push it down? But what do
I want to do in this relationship? Conversations do I
need to have? Is it appropriate to ever bring your
kids into stuff? And I know sometimes we think like, oh,
(05:08):
once your kids are adults, you can just tell them anything.
They're an adult, But if it's a relationship between two parents,
it's like that's still their parents, that's still you know,
this person's dad. They don't want to hear these things.
And I'm not saying you have to call all your
friends or you know this sort of thing. But the
person who could really help you through this is there.
(05:30):
Your partner is there to you know, hold you as
you cry about this and maybe make some decisions about
what the relationship can be like in light of this affair,
because it's very clear that there's so much anger and
so many actions that are coming up that you know,
for many years they weren't dealt with, and here it is,
(05:53):
you know, all these years later, and it's like, you
know what, twenty years ago, this thing happened, and I'm
not willing to let it go.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I also want.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
To speak about how much information the caller is getting
from her parents to know that, you know, there was
an eight year long relationship and that her mom has
these pictures. Our protection as parents does not stop when
our kids turn eighteen. There are still boundaries that we
(06:23):
need to have in those relationships. They don't become this
open space for telling everything and sharing everything. Now you
can get a little more lax in some areas. Maybe
there are some things that you can communicate, but you know,
most adults don't want too many details on their parents'
(06:45):
sex life, and quite honestly, kids are protective of parents.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I'm sure this caller feels a way about her father
having this infidelity on her mother, like there has to
be some sadness there. But you know, I think how
it's shared certainly characterizes how everyone around you responds. And
sometimes when we are hurt, we want people to see
(07:11):
us as the victim and to see this other person
as a perpetrator, as a terrible person, as a mean person,
and to that extent, you know, maybe we do a
little bit of oversharing. So when you're feeling something, even
if your kids are adults, you have to be mindful
of appropriate boundaries. And that might mean, you know, phone
(07:35):
in a friend, It might mean talking to another family
member on your side. Preferably, it might mean, you know,
getting some therapy to work through this stuff. You know,
because quite honestly, it sounds like this has been an
over talked about topic. So does anybody in your life
want to hear you talk about this same thing in
(07:55):
the same way?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Maybe no, But you know who love to hear it?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
A therapist. Why their whole job is to listen. So
finding someone outside of the family to hear about this
could be really helpful. The second thing I noticed here
is are we clear of what depression looks like? Because
I think we have this idea that depression is staying
(08:22):
in your bed, you don't want to go anywhere, you're
sad all the time. But guess what a symptom of
depression is rage? It is anger. I've seen it a
ton in women where they have anger outbursts, where you know,
they have these really big emotional confrontations with people really
(08:46):
centered around some feelings of depression. You know, depression makes
you feel powerless in some ways, and what does anger
make you feel powerful? And so sometimes that depression, it
can shift and it can turn into like I've got
the power.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
So I got to tell.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
These people I'm going to yell and scream. I'm tired
of being walked over. So a sign of depression could
be could be rage. And so without having some sort
of mental health resource here, I would say that, you
know that that could be a function of the depression.
(09:23):
The last thing I want to highlight from what we
just heard is, and I'm going to repeat the line here,
she never apologizes for her actions, anger, or behavior. M
I don't know about you, but if I get about
two or three apologies for the same thing, and I
start to notice that you're not really trying to change this.
(09:46):
You just want to smooth things over with this apology.
I have said to people. I've said to people, you know,
I understand you're trying to smooth this other or you're
you know, you want us to move on. But what
I'm noticing here is you're using an apology as a
way to keep going instead of a way to change
(10:08):
or behavior. So even if your mother apologizes, it doesn't
mean that her behavior will change. She will say I'm
sorry for this thing, and then she will do this
thing again next week. So I wonder for you, what
does this apology signify, because it doesn't sound like it's
signifying change behavior. Maybe an acknowledgment of what she's done.
(10:30):
But you know, in some ways, perhaps she's already doing that.
You know, maybe she is like, you know, whatever, this
is me. So it sounds like you want more than
an apology. You want her to change her behavior around
this thing with your dad. You want her to not
have as many explosions and outbursts with you and others.
(10:55):
Let's take a break and when we get back, we'll
get back into this letter.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Well, this past Mother's Day was the second one she
exhibited this behavior and was extremely passive aggressive towards my dad,
making comments in her conversation with my children, who are
thirteen and eleven years old. When I decided to leave
the visit from the discomfort, she proceeded to put guilt
trips on the kids that her home isn't as fun
as their other grandparents. I left, warned my brothers.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
And moved on well. The following week, I.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Was supposed to take her to a cooking class I
had gotten as her Mother's Day gift, and she asked
me to pick her up as she is disabled from
previous health complications. On that day, as I waited to
help her down the stairs, I watched her smack my
dad twice in the face unprovoked. I lost my temper
and yelled at them, saying, this is ridiculous. Something is wrong,
(11:50):
so again, this pattern has been occurring for six years.
My mom then got mad at me and refused to
go to the class, even mailing me cash and an
envelope to cover the cost. A week later, I message sure,
I was sorry for yelling, it's hard seeing them both hurting,
and suggested some therapy or counseling individually or together.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Fast forward two weeks later, my dad comes over. The
weekly visit became a regular. She sent him over to
tell me all about the affair again like the first time,
and then kept sending him over for details. He left out,
even after I said I didn't want any information. Also,
she was enraged that I even suggested therapy, and during
all this continued to be abusive towards my father to
(12:30):
where he was afraid to sleep. Then under this abuse,
he starts spelling life secrets which aren't good and makes
him call myself and my brothers. I had stated I
cannot deal with this any longer and haven't spoken to
them or her in particular sense, while my dad kept
trying to come over, which created terrible anxiety for me
in my own home, and my husband finally stepped in
(12:51):
and said I need time, unknown time, but time my
dad cried and left.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Hmmm, clinical social worker, I will say the biggest thing
for me to listen to is I watched her smack
him twice in the face unprovoked. I'm hearing some adult
abuse here.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Now, whether.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
You want to address it or you want to bring
someone in. I wonder what can you do in a
situation when your mother is hitting your father. Have you
talked to other family members about what some options might be,
because it seems like it could be a domestic violence
situation for the two of them, And I don't know
(13:40):
if it's you know, like, if I see something like this,
I'll call the police. You know, I don't know what
that boundary could be. Hey, if I see you hitting him,
I will, you know, call the police, or hey, if
I see you hitting him, I will intervene.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Unfortunate for you, as the child of you know, your parents,
to witness your mom hitting your dad, and if she's
doing it in front of you, oh gosh, what is
she doing in private?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
How long has this been going on?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Like? There are so many things here, And unfortunately I'm
hearing that your dad has bought.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Into the shaming of him.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know, he's coming over to your house and he's
telling you these horrible details. I'm sure she's at home
telling him what a piece of whatever he is and
how awful he is for this stuff, to the point
that perhaps he thinks he deserves this smack. Perhaps he
thinks that what your mom is doing is not a
(14:44):
big deal. But I will say this, I know of
a person who wasn't particularly a great mom, and she
has a daughter who I have said, I think you
know some of the things that are happening. It's a
bit abusive when you start cursing people out, when you
start demeaning them and trying to shame them and being
(15:07):
persistent about, you know, sharing these stories in a very
negative and derogatory way. It's like, how much of this
is processing and how much of this is harming another person.
I think you can process it, and maybe sometimes we
do bring people into our process. But if we're processing
(15:28):
it with them every day, if we're calling them names
and hitting them and being really derogatory, it's teetering on abuse.
I don't even want to say teetering. It's abusive. And
although he did this thing, and it's, you know, a
very impactful thing, it's not what he deserves for what
(15:49):
he did. He doesn't deserve to be hit, he doesn't
deserve to have to share these personal details, personal and
private details with his children, and he doesn't deserve this
sort of behavior as a consequence to his eight year
long off again, on again affair. Like I wonder if
(16:11):
the consequence is, you know, maybe dealing with the challenges
in his marriage. It sounds like they have some issues
with this more than you have an issue with this.
Let's look at this next point. When your dad is
coming over, you're getting this terrible anxiety, which is unfortunately
one of the reasons that people tend to have estrangements
(16:34):
in families. It gets to a point where you are
now uncomfortable in this person's presence. There's been so much
toxic energy, or so many assaults and offenses in the
relationship that just the thought of them just being in
their presence creates a certain level of anxiety. You're tired
(16:55):
of handling situation after situation with them, or sometimes you're
tired of having to repeat boundaries, and the only outcome
that you could see working is I can be in
this relationship with this person. I've asked them to stop
telling me this. I've asked them, you know, don't come
over to give me time. And when people continue to push,
(17:18):
it actually pushes you further away. It doesn't pull you closer.
I know that many of us think this is a strategy, like,
oh my gosh, if I, you know, wear them down,
if I keep calling them, if I go over unannounced,
it doesn't give what you're trying to get this person
to receive. It's scaring them, it's making them more anxious.
(17:41):
It's causing them to have some depression about being out
of control in this relationship. And so the situation with
your dad and you fully having to withdraw. I know
that that was a very hard one for you, because
it sounds like, through all of this, you've really tried
(18:01):
to maintain this connection with your mother and your father,
and it sounds like in some ways it's getting worse,
it's not getting better. So there may need to be some.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Legal intervention, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I think we often say to people, you need to
go to therapy, but we don't talk enough about what
happens when we tell people to go to therapy and
they're not ready to go. I've been on the receiving
end of that, where someone is in therapy and they're
really not in therapy. They're there to please other people,
so they're not being honest or they're sharing how terrible
(18:42):
you are. They're not open to any information. They're highly
defensive with the therapist, just all these other problems. So
it's not like telling someone to go to therapy can.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Really change them.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
They have to be willing to do that work, and
I may not be willing to do that work. To
move through her challenges with this affair and staying with him,
I can imagine that she is mostly upset with herself
for staying in this situation and so if I'm upset
(19:19):
with me, I'm going to give you all of my
pain to hold. In my book Drama Free, I talk
about unforgiveness or you know, toxic forgiveness, that sometimes we
aren't really forgiving people, we're staying in these relationships with them,
(19:39):
and we are being passive aggressive. We are, you know,
sometimes being aggressive, which is the case with your parents.
I do hear some passive aggressiveness, but I'm hearing a
lot of aggression from your mom's perspective. And I think,
you know, maybe checking out my book and reading more
about what toxic forgiveness he isn't kind of understanding that
(20:03):
that could be helpful. In addition to Drama Free, I'm
thinking of a book called Overcoming Passive Aggressiveness. This book
is really helpful because it does center around the anger
of passive aggressiveness. And I know what you're thinking, like, yes,
this will be a great book for my mom to read.
(20:23):
It would be great for her to read Drama Free.
These are great books for you to read to better
understand the person with the problems. Your mom did not
write this letter. She may not go to therapy. If
she does, she may not do the things that you
want her to do. But the better you can understand
(20:44):
her process, her perspective, you might be able to have
a higher level of compassion. And with that compassion, I'm
not saying you have to be in the relationship or
anything like that, but you certainly can understand her point
of view and why she's displaying her pain in this way.
(21:04):
It won't make it okay. It's not like, oh, okay,
if I understand it, it'll make it better. No, But
again that compassion of Oh, I see how a person
could respond this way when they're really upset and they
haven't felt like they are a powerful source. Not just
in this area, but I'm sure many other spaces. You know,
(21:26):
this is just one place where your mom has felt powerless,
and I wonder how that has shown up in other
instances in her life. And this is just the person
who's willing to take the pain of it.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
In September, she called out of the blue as if
everything was fine and asked me to go furniture shopping
since they are blocked for my devices. I had my
husband say that I appreciate the invite, but do not
feel ready to engage, and I haven't since well, my
dad is stopped by numerous times to drop off treats
she makes for my kids. As I do allow him
to text my son and me to call my mother,
(22:01):
I can't. I just don't feel ready. I personally think
there are other cognitive problems at the base of this,
and both of them refuse to seek outside help or
are honest with their doctors about what is happening.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I feel terrible.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
As my parents are not bad people, they both grew
up in neglected, abusive homes in very different ways. I
don't know how to move forward with them when the
pattern they exhibit shows zero signs of changing. I miss
them and struggle with feeling like I've abandoned them in
their time of need. I would appreciate any advice on
(22:35):
maneuvering this.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
At this point.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I'm in no contact and that has been helpful to
an extent, but the pop up visits and requests to
reach out make it flare up to a panic. I
have issues even answering my home phone now out of
fear of what is on the other end. I've sought
out my own therapy as well to help me process.
I guess I just didn't think doing the right thing
for my emotional safety would be so hard.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
As I'm hearing this, I am noticing a need for
you to grieve the loss of the relationship with your
parents as you knew it.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
You know, if this is a health issue, which.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
You know, sometimes as you know, dementia and Alzheimer's and
those sorts of things present itself, you know, some of
these behaviors may start to appear. So if you're feeling like, oh,
there is some cognitive issue, whether it's on the spectrum
of dementia or something else, there may come a point
(23:44):
where you and your siblings need to interven. And I
understand that you have, you know, this idea of them
getting better with this, but I don't know if they
can be better together. If you're noticing that, you know
your mom is having more of cognitive impairment than your father.
(24:09):
You know, I would wonder if you can sort of
treat those relationships separately. I'm thinking about what can boundaries
look like for each of them, not them collectively. Perhaps
there is space in the relationship with your father for
you to have some sort of relationship with him, and
he might adhere to you know, some strict boundaries around
(24:32):
We're not talking about mom. We're not doing this, We're
not doing that. But I want to meet you at
this restaurant and just talk to you about you know,
life and me and your grandchild. Perhaps that's possible, right,
I'm hearing a lot of anxiety around your parents still
not respecting your boundaries, and it sounds like you've done
some pretty extensive things, like you know, blocking them from
(24:56):
your phone.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I don't have a.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Home phone anymore, so I I don't even know if
you could black people from now. I'm an venture to
say maybe not. But there is caller ID however, people
can call private. So I think there is a lot
to think about in terms of what the boundaries can
look separately in your relationships with them, because there may
(25:19):
need to be some level of monitoring if this is
a cognitive problem and you don't have to do it.
You know, you have a brother, so talking to your
brother about what support in this situation could look like
would be really helpful. I mean, it doesn't even have
to be you all. Perhaps there's another family member or
(25:42):
someone you can hire to maybe kind of step in
when needed. So think about your options there. I am
happy to hear that you are going to therapy for yourself,
because this is a lot to process, especially when you
didn't grow up with your parents being this way and
you're witnessing this decline. That is very sad to see
(26:08):
that these parents that you've looked up to, who have
been you know, healthier versions of themselves cognitively or you know,
lifestyle wise, they're having many, many challenges that it sounds like,
you know, it's a burden to you to some extent,
and you may not be prepared or equipped to address it.
(26:30):
And I don't want you to feel like it's your
obligation to do it. And that's why I say it.
Bring in other people, like what does community care look like?
Sometimes as our parents are aging, it can be a
lot to deal with depression that results in anger, aggressiveness,
(26:52):
more passive aggressiveness. This is a common thing that I
hear with people that as their parents start to have
more physical and mental health issues may be related to
their age or lifestyle, that yes, I want to care
for you, and I want to be here for you,
but I don't want to be, you know, cussed out
in the process of doing it. I don't want to
(27:13):
have to get into a fight with you. I don't
want to hear your chatter about you know, all of
these very mean things. So it can be very uncomfortable
to try to be in relationship with a person in
this way. And it sounds like you have opted out.
You're not asking my permission to be in or out
(27:35):
of the relationship. My assumption is that you are seeking
some support around the decision you've made. And what I
can say is this is a hard decision, and some
hard decisions for us, it is the necessary one when
(27:55):
we get to a space of having mental health issues
related to our relationships with other people. We're having anxiety,
we're having hair loss, we're having stomach issues, we are
now depressed, we are having psychotic episodes because of these relationships.
We do owe ourselves to evaluate if we want to
(28:18):
be in those relationships. Now, you know, there are options here.
We could go you know, no contact, we could go
low contact, we could go perennial contact. You know, I
think there are so many options for how we want
to be in those relationships, and so just thinking about,
you know, this is something I want to keep my
(28:39):
hands on, but I don't want to be all in.
That might be an option for someone and not an
option for you. So, considering your needs, you are making
this choice. And I can't think of any more boundaries
with your phone situations. It sounds like you've said a lot,
and I think the really unfortunate party is that your
(29:00):
parents won't listen to this, and they keep trying to
press and pursue, and that is their problem, not yours.
I'm sure they want to be in relationship, but they're
also not willing to do the work to be in
the relationship. They want you to be in the relationship
as it is, and sometimes that doesn't work for us.
(29:21):
Sometimes we want better for ourselves. You need to hear
this when you are in a relationship and you decide,
I want better for myself. This person is causing me
now to have lifestyle issues, to have mental health issues.
(29:43):
They're causing problems in my other relationships. I want better
for myself in the relationships that I am pursuing. In
the relationships i'm giving my energy to You have the
right to choose something else, And I know that it
(30:03):
is really hard to even consider not being in some
really difficult relationships for us, But.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Sometimes it is better. It is better.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It's better for us to consider our options, whether that
option is low contact to pool other people in to
get really creative about protecting ourselves in these relationships. You
have the right to choose other options.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You need to hear. This is an iHeart production.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Host it by me Nedra Glover to wob Our executive
producer is Joel Bonique. Our senior producer and editor is
Mia don Taylor. Send us a voice memo with your
questions about boundaries and relationships at you need to hear
this at iHeartMedia dot com. Please be sure to rate
(30:58):
our show wherever you listen to it, and share this
episode with someone who needs to hear this.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Talk to you next time.
Hi, listeners, welcome back. I'm Nedra Glover to WIB and
you need to hear this. In our relationships, we may
not notice when we are acting out resentment, and we
might not even know what it feels like to be
resentful of things that have happened in our relationship. But
(00:24):
today we will listen to a call that is rooted
in resentment. I want you to think of situations when
someone has harmed you and you didn't talk about it
in the relationship, and you continue to be in those relationships.
It's not that we can't move through situations that occur
(00:48):
in our relationships, but it is really important that we
work on the repair of those things. And it's important
that we talk about the cost of certain things happening
in our relationships. Sometimes we don't want to move on,
and sometimes we do. But bring that to the relationship.
(01:08):
Don't keep it to yourself. It's not your stuff. If
it's impacting you because of this other person, it is
a relationship issue.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Hello. So my parents have been married for fifty one
years now and are in their early seventies. Over the
past six years, my mom has been having bouts of
rage that have been increasing in frequency, and anger. This
rage is directed at past transgressions and trauma from my
dad early in their marriage, from an on again, off
again affair that spanned about eight years.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
My dad was a binge drinker.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I'd consider him an alcoholic, but has been clean for
decades minus one or two slip ups during these rage bouts.
My mom is not someone I know, and she has
exhibited nasty, abusive behavior not only towards my father, but
my brothers and I also, example being, she made prints
of a photo she saved of this woman and put
(02:04):
them in picture frames all over the house. She sent
me a text photo and said my haircut resembled the woman.
She never apologizes for her actions, anger or behavior. She
also falls into a depression and we'll not speak to
us for however long or respond to texts.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
This is the resentment we were talking about. When we
don't address things, it may take years for those things
to come up. We think that we are saving the
relationship by sitting with this stuff, by stewing in our
emotions without trying to bring this other person in. And
(02:49):
here it is, you know, many years later, and this
person's mom is like, you know what, this stuff happened?
To me, no matter how many years ago it happened,
and I am upset. I was upset then and I'm
upset now. And maybe because of the father's alcoholism, he
(03:09):
wasn't willing to be accountable and couldn't accept what was
happening at that time. But certainly now you know he's
able to listen, and you know he's not drinking anymore,
and it sounds like he's taking some of this by
staying in the relationship. So now she's able to say,
now I can hold you accountable. All of those years ago,
(03:30):
I had to keep it to myself. But I am angry,
and I felt that way for so many years. One
of the things that I think we should wonder about
if we are experiencing resentment, either for allowing something in
a relationship, being such a caring person that we're overgiving,
(03:54):
having some issue with another person. When we're experiencing resentment,
we have to explore what's under that.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Am I sad?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Am? I disappointed? Am I angry? What is going on?
What's fueling this resentment? Often I find that it is
a mixture of disappointment, sadness, and anger, right, like you know,
But if we could just prioritize what is the biggest
(04:25):
feeling I'm dealing with right now. I am disappointed that
this person who I love and who I'm still with
had this other relationship. I feel betrayed and even though
they're here now, I had to share a part of
(04:46):
them for whatever length of time. And when we feel this,
what do I want to do? Not how do I
want to continue to push it down? But what do
I want to do in this relationship? Conversations do I
need to have? Is it appropriate to ever bring your
kids into stuff? And I know sometimes we think like, oh,
(05:08):
once your kids are adults, you can just tell them anything.
They're an adult, But if it's a relationship between two parents,
it's like that's still their parents, that's still you know,
this person's dad. They don't want to hear these things.
And I'm not saying you have to call all your
friends or you know this sort of thing. But the
person who could really help you through this is there.
(05:30):
Your partner is there to you know, hold you as
you cry about this and maybe make some decisions about
what the relationship can be like in light of this affair,
because it's very clear that there's so much anger and
so many actions that are coming up that you know,
for many years they weren't dealt with, and here it is,
(05:53):
you know, all these years later, and it's like, you
know what, twenty years ago, this thing happened, and I'm
not willing to let it go.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I also want.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
To speak about how much information the caller is getting
from her parents to know that, you know, there was
an eight year long relationship and that her mom has
these pictures. Our protection as parents does not stop when
our kids turn eighteen. There are still boundaries that we
(06:23):
need to have in those relationships. They don't become this
open space for telling everything and sharing everything. Now you
can get a little more lax in some areas. Maybe
there are some things that you can communicate, but you know,
most adults don't want too many details on their parents'
(06:45):
sex life, and quite honestly, kids are protective of parents.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I'm sure this caller feels a way about her father
having this infidelity on her mother, like there has to
be some sadness there. But you know, I think how
it's shared certainly characterizes how everyone around you responds. And
sometimes when we are hurt, we want people to see
(07:11):
us as the victim and to see this other person
as a perpetrator, as a terrible person, as a mean person,
and to that extent, you know, maybe we do a
little bit of oversharing. So when you're feeling something, even
if your kids are adults, you have to be mindful
of appropriate boundaries. And that might mean, you know, phone
(07:35):
in a friend, It might mean talking to another family
member on your side. Preferably, it might mean, you know,
getting some therapy to work through this stuff. You know,
because quite honestly, it sounds like this has been an
over talked about topic. So does anybody in your life
want to hear you talk about this same thing in
(07:55):
the same way?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Maybe no, But you know who love to hear it?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
A therapist. Why their whole job is to listen. So
finding someone outside of the family to hear about this
could be really helpful. The second thing I noticed here
is are we clear of what depression looks like? Because
I think we have this idea that depression is staying
(08:22):
in your bed, you don't want to go anywhere, you're
sad all the time. But guess what a symptom of
depression is rage? It is anger. I've seen it a
ton in women where they have anger outbursts, where you know,
they have these really big emotional confrontations with people really
(08:46):
centered around some feelings of depression. You know, depression makes
you feel powerless in some ways, and what does anger
make you feel powerful? And so sometimes that depression, it
can shift and it can turn into like I've got
the power.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
So I got to tell.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
These people I'm going to yell and scream. I'm tired
of being walked over. So a sign of depression could
be could be rage. And so without having some sort
of mental health resource here, I would say that, you
know that that could be a function of the depression.
(09:23):
The last thing I want to highlight from what we
just heard is, and I'm going to repeat the line here,
she never apologizes for her actions, anger, or behavior. M
I don't know about you, but if I get about
two or three apologies for the same thing, and I
start to notice that you're not really trying to change this.
(09:46):
You just want to smooth things over with this apology.
I have said to people. I've said to people, you know,
I understand you're trying to smooth this other or you're
you know, you want us to move on. But what
I'm noticing here is you're using an apology as a
way to keep going instead of a way to change
(10:08):
or behavior. So even if your mother apologizes, it doesn't
mean that her behavior will change. She will say I'm
sorry for this thing, and then she will do this
thing again next week. So I wonder for you, what
does this apology signify, because it doesn't sound like it's
signifying change behavior. Maybe an acknowledgment of what she's done.
(10:30):
But you know, in some ways, perhaps she's already doing that.
You know, maybe she is like, you know, whatever, this
is me. So it sounds like you want more than
an apology. You want her to change her behavior around
this thing with your dad. You want her to not
have as many explosions and outbursts with you and others.
(10:55):
Let's take a break and when we get back, we'll
get back into this letter.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Well, this past Mother's Day was the second one she
exhibited this behavior and was extremely passive aggressive towards my dad,
making comments in her conversation with my children, who are
thirteen and eleven years old. When I decided to leave
the visit from the discomfort, she proceeded to put guilt
trips on the kids that her home isn't as fun
as their other grandparents. I left, warned my brothers.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
And moved on well. The following week, I.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Was supposed to take her to a cooking class I
had gotten as her Mother's Day gift, and she asked
me to pick her up as she is disabled from
previous health complications. On that day, as I waited to
help her down the stairs, I watched her smack my
dad twice in the face unprovoked. I lost my temper
and yelled at them, saying, this is ridiculous. Something is wrong,
(11:50):
so again, this pattern has been occurring for six years.
My mom then got mad at me and refused to
go to the class, even mailing me cash and an
envelope to cover the cost. A week later, I message sure,
I was sorry for yelling, it's hard seeing them both hurting,
and suggested some therapy or counseling individually or together.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Fast forward two weeks later, my dad comes over. The
weekly visit became a regular. She sent him over to
tell me all about the affair again like the first time,
and then kept sending him over for details. He left out,
even after I said I didn't want any information. Also,
she was enraged that I even suggested therapy, and during
all this continued to be abusive towards my father to
(12:30):
where he was afraid to sleep. Then under this abuse,
he starts spelling life secrets which aren't good and makes
him call myself and my brothers. I had stated I
cannot deal with this any longer and haven't spoken to
them or her in particular sense, while my dad kept
trying to come over, which created terrible anxiety for me
in my own home, and my husband finally stepped in
(12:51):
and said I need time, unknown time, but time my
dad cried and left.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Hmmm, clinical social worker, I will say the biggest thing
for me to listen to is I watched her smack
him twice in the face unprovoked. I'm hearing some adult
abuse here.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Now, whether.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
You want to address it or you want to bring
someone in. I wonder what can you do in a
situation when your mother is hitting your father. Have you
talked to other family members about what some options might be,
because it seems like it could be a domestic violence
situation for the two of them, And I don't know
(13:40):
if it's you know, like, if I see something like this,
I'll call the police. You know, I don't know what
that boundary could be. Hey, if I see you hitting him,
I will, you know, call the police, or hey, if
I see you hitting him, I will intervene.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Unfortunate for you, as the child of you know, your parents,
to witness your mom hitting your dad, and if she's
doing it in front of you, oh gosh, what is
she doing in private?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
How long has this been going on?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Like? There are so many things here, And unfortunately I'm
hearing that your dad has bought.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Into the shaming of him.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know, he's coming over to your house and he's
telling you these horrible details. I'm sure she's at home
telling him what a piece of whatever he is and
how awful he is for this stuff, to the point
that perhaps he thinks he deserves this smack. Perhaps he
thinks that what your mom is doing is not a
(14:44):
big deal. But I will say this, I know of
a person who wasn't particularly a great mom, and she
has a daughter who I have said, I think you
know some of the things that are happening. It's a
bit abusive when you start cursing people out, when you
start demeaning them and trying to shame them and being
(15:07):
persistent about, you know, sharing these stories in a very
negative and derogatory way. It's like, how much of this
is processing and how much of this is harming another person.
I think you can process it, and maybe sometimes we
do bring people into our process. But if we're processing
(15:28):
it with them every day, if we're calling them names
and hitting them and being really derogatory, it's teetering on abuse.
I don't even want to say teetering. It's abusive. And
although he did this thing, and it's, you know, a
very impactful thing, it's not what he deserves for what
(15:49):
he did. He doesn't deserve to be hit, he doesn't
deserve to have to share these personal details, personal and
private details with his children, and he doesn't deserve this
sort of behavior as a consequence to his eight year
long off again, on again affair. Like I wonder if
(16:11):
the consequence is, you know, maybe dealing with the challenges
in his marriage. It sounds like they have some issues
with this more than you have an issue with this.
Let's look at this next point. When your dad is
coming over, you're getting this terrible anxiety, which is unfortunately
one of the reasons that people tend to have estrangements
(16:34):
in families. It gets to a point where you are
now uncomfortable in this person's presence. There's been so much
toxic energy, or so many assaults and offenses in the
relationship that just the thought of them just being in
their presence creates a certain level of anxiety. You're tired
(16:55):
of handling situation after situation with them, or sometimes you're
tired of having to repeat boundaries, and the only outcome
that you could see working is I can be in
this relationship with this person. I've asked them to stop
telling me this. I've asked them, you know, don't come
over to give me time. And when people continue to push,
(17:18):
it actually pushes you further away. It doesn't pull you closer.
I know that many of us think this is a strategy, like,
oh my gosh, if I, you know, wear them down,
if I keep calling them, if I go over unannounced,
it doesn't give what you're trying to get this person
to receive. It's scaring them, it's making them more anxious.
(17:41):
It's causing them to have some depression about being out
of control in this relationship. And so the situation with
your dad and you fully having to withdraw. I know
that that was a very hard one for you, because
it sounds like, through all of this, you've really tried
(18:01):
to maintain this connection with your mother and your father,
and it sounds like in some ways it's getting worse,
it's not getting better. So there may need to be some.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Legal intervention, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I think we often say to people, you need to
go to therapy, but we don't talk enough about what
happens when we tell people to go to therapy and
they're not ready to go. I've been on the receiving
end of that, where someone is in therapy and they're
really not in therapy. They're there to please other people,
so they're not being honest or they're sharing how terrible
(18:42):
you are. They're not open to any information. They're highly
defensive with the therapist, just all these other problems. So
it's not like telling someone to go to therapy can.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Really change them.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
They have to be willing to do that work, and
I may not be willing to do that work. To
move through her challenges with this affair and staying with him,
I can imagine that she is mostly upset with herself
for staying in this situation and so if I'm upset
(19:19):
with me, I'm going to give you all of my
pain to hold. In my book Drama Free, I talk
about unforgiveness or you know, toxic forgiveness, that sometimes we
aren't really forgiving people, we're staying in these relationships with them,
(19:39):
and we are being passive aggressive. We are, you know,
sometimes being aggressive, which is the case with your parents.
I do hear some passive aggressiveness, but I'm hearing a
lot of aggression from your mom's perspective. And I think,
you know, maybe checking out my book and reading more
about what toxic forgiveness he isn't kind of understanding that
(20:03):
that could be helpful. In addition to Drama Free, I'm
thinking of a book called Overcoming Passive Aggressiveness. This book
is really helpful because it does center around the anger
of passive aggressiveness. And I know what you're thinking, like, yes,
this will be a great book for my mom to read.
(20:23):
It would be great for her to read Drama Free.
These are great books for you to read to better
understand the person with the problems. Your mom did not
write this letter. She may not go to therapy. If
she does, she may not do the things that you
want her to do. But the better you can understand
(20:44):
her process, her perspective, you might be able to have
a higher level of compassion. And with that compassion, I'm
not saying you have to be in the relationship or
anything like that, but you certainly can understand her point
of view and why she's displaying her pain in this way.
(21:04):
It won't make it okay. It's not like, oh, okay,
if I understand it, it'll make it better. No, But
again that compassion of Oh, I see how a person
could respond this way when they're really upset and they
haven't felt like they are a powerful source. Not just
in this area, but I'm sure many other spaces. You know,
(21:26):
this is just one place where your mom has felt powerless,
and I wonder how that has shown up in other
instances in her life. And this is just the person
who's willing to take the pain of it.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
In September, she called out of the blue as if
everything was fine and asked me to go furniture shopping
since they are blocked for my devices. I had my
husband say that I appreciate the invite, but do not
feel ready to engage, and I haven't since well, my
dad is stopped by numerous times to drop off treats
she makes for my kids. As I do allow him
to text my son and me to call my mother,
(22:01):
I can't. I just don't feel ready. I personally think
there are other cognitive problems at the base of this,
and both of them refuse to seek outside help or
are honest with their doctors about what is happening.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I feel terrible.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
As my parents are not bad people, they both grew
up in neglected, abusive homes in very different ways. I
don't know how to move forward with them when the
pattern they exhibit shows zero signs of changing. I miss
them and struggle with feeling like I've abandoned them in
their time of need. I would appreciate any advice on
(22:35):
maneuvering this.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
At this point.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I'm in no contact and that has been helpful to
an extent, but the pop up visits and requests to
reach out make it flare up to a panic. I
have issues even answering my home phone now out of
fear of what is on the other end. I've sought
out my own therapy as well to help me process.
I guess I just didn't think doing the right thing
for my emotional safety would be so hard.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
As I'm hearing this, I am noticing a need for
you to grieve the loss of the relationship with your
parents as you knew it.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
You know, if this is a health issue, which.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
You know, sometimes as you know, dementia and Alzheimer's and
those sorts of things present itself, you know, some of
these behaviors may start to appear. So if you're feeling like, oh,
there is some cognitive issue, whether it's on the spectrum
of dementia or something else, there may come a point
(23:44):
where you and your siblings need to interven. And I
understand that you have, you know, this idea of them
getting better with this, but I don't know if they
can be better together. If you're noticing that, you know
your mom is having more of cognitive impairment than your father.
(24:09):
You know, I would wonder if you can sort of
treat those relationships separately. I'm thinking about what can boundaries
look like for each of them, not them collectively. Perhaps
there is space in the relationship with your father for
you to have some sort of relationship with him, and
he might adhere to you know, some strict boundaries around
(24:32):
We're not talking about mom. We're not doing this, We're
not doing that. But I want to meet you at
this restaurant and just talk to you about you know,
life and me and your grandchild. Perhaps that's possible, right,
I'm hearing a lot of anxiety around your parents still
not respecting your boundaries, and it sounds like you've done
some pretty extensive things, like you know, blocking them from
(24:56):
your phone.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I don't have a.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Home phone anymore, so I I don't even know if
you could black people from now. I'm an venture to
say maybe not. But there is caller ID however, people
can call private. So I think there is a lot
to think about in terms of what the boundaries can
look separately in your relationships with them, because there may
(25:19):
need to be some level of monitoring if this is
a cognitive problem and you don't have to do it.
You know, you have a brother, so talking to your
brother about what support in this situation could look like
would be really helpful. I mean, it doesn't even have
to be you all. Perhaps there's another family member or
(25:42):
someone you can hire to maybe kind of step in
when needed. So think about your options there. I am
happy to hear that you are going to therapy for yourself,
because this is a lot to process, especially when you
didn't grow up with your parents being this way and
you're witnessing this decline. That is very sad to see
(26:08):
that these parents that you've looked up to, who have
been you know, healthier versions of themselves cognitively or you know,
lifestyle wise, they're having many, many challenges that it sounds like,
you know, it's a burden to you to some extent,
and you may not be prepared or equipped to address it.
(26:30):
And I don't want you to feel like it's your
obligation to do it. And that's why I say it.
Bring in other people, like what does community care look like?
Sometimes as our parents are aging, it can be a
lot to deal with depression that results in anger, aggressiveness,
(26:52):
more passive aggressiveness. This is a common thing that I
hear with people that as their parents start to have
more physical and mental health issues may be related to
their age or lifestyle, that yes, I want to care
for you, and I want to be here for you,
but I don't want to be, you know, cussed out
in the process of doing it. I don't want to
(27:13):
have to get into a fight with you. I don't
want to hear your chatter about you know, all of
these very mean things. So it can be very uncomfortable
to try to be in relationship with a person in
this way. And it sounds like you have opted out.
You're not asking my permission to be in or out
(27:35):
of the relationship. My assumption is that you are seeking
some support around the decision you've made. And what I
can say is this is a hard decision, and some
hard decisions for us, it is the necessary one when
(27:55):
we get to a space of having mental health issues
related to our relationships with other people. We're having anxiety,
we're having hair loss, we're having stomach issues, we are
now depressed, we are having psychotic episodes because of these relationships.
We do owe ourselves to evaluate if we want to
(28:18):
be in those relationships. Now, you know, there are options here.
We could go you know, no contact, we could go
low contact, we could go perennial contact. You know, I
think there are so many options for how we want
to be in those relationships, and so just thinking about,
you know, this is something I want to keep my
(28:39):
hands on, but I don't want to be all in.
That might be an option for someone and not an
option for you. So, considering your needs, you are making
this choice. And I can't think of any more boundaries
with your phone situations. It sounds like you've said a lot,
and I think the really unfortunate party is that your
(29:00):
parents won't listen to this, and they keep trying to
press and pursue, and that is their problem, not yours.
I'm sure they want to be in relationship, but they're
also not willing to do the work to be in
the relationship. They want you to be in the relationship
as it is, and sometimes that doesn't work for us.
(29:21):
Sometimes we want better for ourselves. You need to hear
this when you are in a relationship and you decide,
I want better for myself. This person is causing me
now to have lifestyle issues, to have mental health issues.
(29:43):
They're causing problems in my other relationships. I want better
for myself in the relationships that I am pursuing. In
the relationships i'm giving my energy to You have the
right to choose something else, And I know that it
(30:03):
is really hard to even consider not being in some
really difficult relationships for us, But.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Sometimes it is better. It is better.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It's better for us to consider our options, whether that
option is low contact to pool other people in to
get really creative about protecting ourselves in these relationships. You
have the right to choose other options.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You need to hear. This is an iHeart production.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Host it by me Nedra Glover to wob Our executive
producer is Joel Bonique. Our senior producer and editor is
Mia don Taylor. Send us a voice memo with your
questions about boundaries and relationships at you need to hear
this at iHeartMedia dot com. Please be sure to rate
(30:58):
our show wherever you listen to it, and share this
episode with someone who needs to hear this.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Talk to you next time.
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