September 17, 2020 • 52 mins
Ali Wentworth asks two higher education experts what parents need to know about the new college landscape in light of the pandemic. First,Logan Powell (President of Admissions, Brown University) reveals how universities are adjusting to the ‘new normal’ - from campus de-densification to going test optional. Then, Martin Bonilla (Director of College Counseling, The College Preparatory School) outlines how COVID-19 may influence the future of the college application process and what parents can be doing to best prepare their teens in these uncertain times.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio hiam Elli Wentworth
and you're listening to Go ask Alli. Where this season
we try to figure out how to grow a teenager
in a pandemic. On this episode, we're diving into an
(00:26):
arena that has had a lot of families with teens
really stressed out, and that's college. And I am one
of those parents that is completely stressing out. I have
a rising senior, Elliott, who is right now applying to
a number of colleges. I remember when I applied to college,
and it was very simple. I applied to an arts
(00:48):
college that pretty much guaranteed they'd accept me based on
my paintings, and I just stopped there. I didn't even
want to go through the stress of applying to school.
So this is going to be an interesting topic not
only for me, but for most of the parents listening
who have kids who will apply have applied to college
during a pandemic. It's an overwhelming and trigger inducing topics.
(01:10):
So I opened it up. I want to discuss it
with two different people. One of them is Logan Powell.
He's the head of emissions at Brown and he's going
to share his perspective from within an institution. And then
Martin Bonihah, the master at College Prep, and what his
new landscape means for the application process and whether higher
education makes sense right now. First up, here's my conversation
(01:33):
with Logan Power. Welcome Logan, Thank you allie. It's great
to be with you. I'm assuming you are completely inundated
and drowning in all kinds of emails and calls about
what the hell is going on in college share. Well,
you know, I'm getting a lot of questions that presume
(01:54):
I'm a fortune teller, and uh, and so I share
the frustrations that are applicants and parents and incoming students
have because they want to know what the future will
look like. And and I wish, I wish I could
tell them Alle and I and it changes and even
if you if you know today, it's different tomorrow exactly. Well,
(02:16):
I'm uh selfishly, i have a daughter who's going to
be a senior next year, and I've noticed a great
amount of anxiety between her and her friends about what
it's all going to look like for them applying. And
then I have, you know, I know so many teenagers
that are are going to college for the first time
this fall and they don't know what that looks like.
(02:37):
This is a huge question, and you can just pretend
we're having technical difficulty if you want to answer. But
do you think um online education is the future for universities.
I think for some universities it may be. So you know,
with almost any question we're asked about college admissions, the
(02:59):
future of colle as you admissions, it depends those who
can commute to school, those who go to school very locally,
those who attend community college. Is an online experience may
be the way for them to go, It may be
the way for them to go now, and it may
be the wave of the future for them. However, there
is another population of students who are really largely trending
(03:20):
towards our residential experience. So you know, there is a
big part of the college experience that is about learning
from your classmates. It's it's not just about what happens
in the classroom. It's about those spontaneous conversations about philosophy
and politics and economics that happen well after a class
has ended for the day. The other part of it,
it's really helpful and and frankly critical. We think UM
(03:43):
are the sort of the social educational benefits UM, you know,
having to navigate interpersonal relationships in some cases for the
first time. That's really a critical part of the college
experience that you can't replicate online. So I do think
there is a future for online and patient, but I
don't think that online education is the only future for
(04:04):
probably a majority of students. I think most students still
want to go to college. I think I think most
students still want to move, you know, your your old family,
like three pound couch up two flights of stairs into
your dorm room. Right, that's part of the experience, and
it sounds exciting, can wait, I think and beyond? So
(04:26):
I get it. I get it. I mean, I know
and I think too about a lot of people in
UM communities that are worried about a second wave of
a virus, another pandemic, and there seems to be a
sense of well, maybe I won't maybe I'll stay and
go to a state school. That way, if there's another pandemic,
(04:47):
I'm at home, I'm nearby, which I mean, I do
understand that argument. However, I'm I believe in the full
college experience and I think particularly for international students, they're
gonna want a full college experience. Um Mitchell Stevens, who's
an associate producer of education at Stanford, said before the pandemic,
(05:08):
higher education was in many ways held together by prayer
band aids. International students in a lot of debt. So too,
isn't it. I know, I know, UM, I'm sure you're
getting inundated with parents saying, well, if it's gonna be virtual,
(05:29):
then I don't want to spend all this money because
I'm going to be feeding my kids at home and
housing them. How do you answer that question? Well, so far,
you know, I can speak in part for what Brown
is doing, and I can you know, say a word
about what's happening nationally. At Brown, we are making every
plan possible for students to be back on campus. Students
(05:50):
have the choice to to learn virtually and and we
certainly respect, um, you know, if they have either a
health concern, if there's some of the reason and why
they can't be on campus, then we certainly uh, you know,
we we give them room for that, we give them
space to exercise that freedom. But we are inviting students
back to campus, and we have a plan in place
(06:10):
changing from a two semester model to a trimester model
to allow for de dentification or that you'll hear a
lot this this upcoming academic year. Um, well, name my
book and there you go. So we have a plan
that will allow students to come back to campus in
a in a stagger fashion and in a dednsified fashion.
(06:31):
Not every school can do that now, and I should say,
in addition to that, there will obviously be rigorous testing. Uh,
there will be the ability to contact trace. We have
plans in place to isolate students who do test positive.
If it does happen, courses will will certainly have a
hybrid component to them. Uh, classes will look different. You
know that that you know, the the large class of
(06:54):
a hundred students sitting side by side and an auditorium
won't happen this year, um, But de identified classes will
happen this year. Students will live in dorms this year.
That that will all happen for us this year as
of now. Yes, I know tomorrow if this podcast things
could change. That's that this is the new normal world
(07:14):
we live in. Though. That's exactly right, um work school. Um,
So this includes international students financial aid students. That's right, yep, great,
that's right. We're in a fortunate position. There are there
are other schools who, uh you know, who aren't as
financially secure, and you know, certainly that's understandable. They've had
(07:36):
to take pretty major hits. You see, there's some pretty
big shocks to the system, um, not just for Higher
ED but for for everyone frankly. And the shocks to
the system are you know, really large decreases in revenue
that some colleges and universities face. At the same time,
you have increased costs for you know, installing testing and
uh you know, in all of the upgrades you and
(07:58):
changes you have to make on camp and by the way,
financial aid you know, students now because their families have
taken financial hits. Um. You know, on the on the
one hand, colleges and universities have lost some revenue because
students aren't maybe going to college, they're taking gap years
or leaves of absence. And then on the other hand,
you have students who are planning become who need more
(08:19):
financial aid than they ever have before in addition to
all of the normal costs you incur. So it's a
it's a two part shock to the system. That's that's
pretty tough for a lot of places to weather. So
let me ask you some questions about that. One is, UM,
how does this work if a lot of students this
year say I'm so excited to be going to Brown,
(08:41):
I'm going to take a gap year or I'm going
to defer, how does that affect the next group of
students coming in? Will be such an influx? Won't you
be flooded with students? And won't you be somewhat anemic
next year if everybody's taking gap years because they don't
want to be virtual. I think that's the concertain that
that perspective applicants would have. It's not a concern they
(09:04):
need to have with us. You know, we were very
judicious in the number of gap year requests we granted.
Disruptive would be a kind a kind term to use
for what has happened to families who are thinking about
the college process. So we have returning families we think about,
we have incoming first year families we think about UM,
(09:26):
and we have prospective families we think about. And so
those prospective families I think are in many cases really
concerned that if UM, if you grant, say a hundred
gap year requests, that's a hundred fewer spaces in next
year's class that are available for for applicants in that
next year. That's not the case for us again, because
we were really thoughtful and cautious about how many gap
(09:49):
years we offered UM, knowing that there was going to
be some feeling of unfairness to some group of students, uh,
you know, who might have been impacted. But what we
really thought long and hard about was, if you're going
to take a gap year, is that a gap year
you would have done normally? Because we are allowing students
to come to campus, we're encouraging them at this point
(10:10):
to come to campus. And when there have been you know,
really compelling reasons that we've seen, required military service, religious obligations,
health concerns, all of those things, of course we are
more generous about what I tould say. What about students
that want to do something right now in an activist
kind of way to help people that have been affected
(10:33):
by the by the pandemic. Have you seen that? Have
you seen people saying, look, I'm gonna take a gap
here because I want to dot dot dot We want
to house right right. We we do see that, Alley,
and and we appreciate it more than I can tell you.
We're in a fortunate position because our first year students
at Brown actually don't start until January, and they'll do
a spring term and a summer term. And so as
(10:53):
a result of that, we've said, please do all the
outreach you ken, and do it this fall. We would
love for you to do that, and we have that
who have done that, and we hope that they continue
that in the fall while maintaining all of the appropriate
precautions to remain safe and come here ready to go.
Are you asking the question in applications as you're in
the future, what did you do during the pandemic? Is
(11:15):
that going to be a an application question? It's a
it's a good it's a really good question. So, you know,
thinking about how this disrupted this upcoming class of applicants,
not just the country but around the world. For some
of our prospective families, it has been heartrenching. It has
you know, it has had catastrophic consequences for their families,
(11:37):
and that level of devastation we're going to see and
we're going to be sensitive to and it's it's going
to be difficult to read every time we see it,
to be sure. So let me talk about another issue
that I've I'm hearing from my teenage pals about past
fail grades. You know, there's a concern now that you
know they work so hard, um, done so well, and
(12:00):
now in their senior year, the teachers are saying, we're
going to be past fail and to them, to the teenagers,
it's not showing you how much work they've done, how
much progress they've had, or the fact that it's an A.
You know, it could be a C minus, but no one,
no one knows. Um. I think there's a huge concern
about that for them, right right. I think there are
(12:24):
I think there are two ways of looking at it. Ali,
I think there's that concern, and we have this here
that that that same concern, by the way, exists at
the college level. I mean we have you know, across
the country, we have a group of incoming seniors who
are applying to law school, business school, medical school, applying
to PhD programs who were saying, I need a g
p A to demonstrate that I'm prepared for graduate professional
(12:44):
study or to show my future employer. Uh, that that
I'm a good student. The flip side to that coin, though,
is uh this digital divide that has existed for years
that has been exacerbated as a result of the pandemic UM.
You know, I I personally know Brown families where the
student has support and resources and has a private sort
(13:06):
of space in the home to study UM and and
that and and has you know too caring and and
supportive parents who are there for them. And I know
Brown students who don't have a home to go home to.
They stayed on campus because there is no home for them,
or the home or the home maybe five people in
a two bedroom apartment, and there may be no WiFi
(13:27):
in their home. And so for that student to be
asked to perform at the same level they did before,
that student who may not have WiFi, who may not
have a private study space, who may not have the
support of parents, should we ask that student to be
judged on the A B C. D UH rubric. You know,
some would argue that that's unfair as well, And so
(13:47):
I think there are two sides to it. I completely
agree with you. I think so much about so many
families who have been completely devastated by the pandemic. And
I think about families not only know they don't have WiFi,
but suddenly both of their parents are unemployed and they
have to go get a job and they have to
(14:07):
now support the family unit in a way they didn't
have to before. So it's not just about great. So,
I mean, I think that's fantastic. We're gonna take a
short break and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more,
go ask Alley. The S A T S is another
(14:33):
thing I know that banging your head against a while
to hear that's ever asked me about. They haven't let's
throw the whole thing away. Um, but that's that has
an effect too now because of the pandemic in many ways. Um.
And that's for students of all socio economic backgrounds. So
(14:54):
how do you how do you sort of speak to
students about that now? Right? College testing organizations, So the
S A T and the A C T they've done
everything they can. I'm not intending to knock them in
any way, but they they also have to be concerned
about the health of the students who are coming to
take the test. They also have to be concerned about
(15:15):
test security, which is why in one case at least
there was no testing from home option. But they also
have to think about reliable uh Internet connections for students
who may have wanted to to take the test online.
They have to think about where the tests are offered.
If it's offered in a high school. But so say,
say Ali, for example, they wanted to offer the S
(15:36):
A T R A c T in the city of
Chicago to Chicago Public school. Well, Chicago public schools aren't
open this fall, So what then do you? What then
do you do? There aren't There aren't a whole lot
of options left for those students, nor for the testing agency.
So I don't blame them for this. It's not their fault.
For sure, they're they're taking the precautions that they think
(15:57):
are appropriate for the students, though it is alted in
I think widespread anxiety built on on the uncertainty of
whether or not a test will be available, and then
then whether or not they'll be penalized for not having
a test, or for having one test when they would
have normally had three, five, or however many they normally
(16:18):
would have taken. And so what we're doing is um
is to do the best we can to say, look,
will take all the information that's available from you and
from your school and beyond that. We can't ask anything
more of you, and and we just want you to
be We want you to be healthy, we want you
to be safe, we want you to be with your family.
Take the precautions you need to take. We're going to
(16:39):
do the best job we can. And the sooner we
all get comfortable with uncertainty, the more at peace will be.
Even even if it's not what we want, will at
least have some understanding that this is the reality we
live in for at least a year. I mean, your
admissions process this year is going to be something. It's
going to be a complete I mean really, it's it's
(17:00):
gonna have to kind of change all the optics on
how you look at an application right to some degree. Yes, Ali,
we we will. You know certainly that the core components
remain the same, which is to say we always put
people first. Um. I think I speak from most colleges
and universities in the country and saying we should have
(17:20):
never made a decision based on standardized testing alone. I
think that's not the way to go. I think that's
an unfortunate policy. If that's never been the policy at Brown,
and it's not going to be the policy this year.
We're not going to make decisions based on the presence
or absence of standardized testing. UM. Now, in this case,
(17:40):
I should say testing should not have been determinative of
a particular outcome this year. Like the rest of the country,
we are test optional because it's it's the right thing
to do, uh for for our applicants this year. So
it will be it will be different. But I think
the key for us is to not hold it against
the students who don't have test scores, because I've heard
from family least with you know, with enormous resources, and
(18:04):
students with no resources, wh all say the same thing,
you can't you can't get in to take a test.
I mean, this is affecting everyone in the same way.
And it doesn't matter what your socio economic status is.
If the schools are closed and you can't take the
s A T you can't take the s A T UM.
And so we we we realized that and we're going
to take that into consideration, right, I mean, which one
(18:25):
could say about voting and everything else right now, So
and my my last question is UM, now that we're
all going to be taking virtual tours, um, have you
had meetings about what that? You know, I've seen your
virtual tour now, but I think universities, at least for
the next year or so, that's the only way, you know,
(18:46):
students that are that are browsing are going to be
able to see them, not on foot, not by intuition,
but by this virtual tour. Do you feel any pressure
to add, you know, put a lot of bells and
whistles in your tour? I mean, how do you really
show what your university is online? Right? That's a great question.
(19:10):
So there are all these new buzzwords that you here
related to the times in which we find ourselves living
right now. And you know we talked about d dentification.
The other popular buzzword is is asynchronous or asynchronicity. And
so what that means is how do you offer tours
and information sessions to students around the world in many
(19:33):
different time zones? And so what we do Our approach
has been to offer sort of a buffet of options,
if you will. So we have recorded tours that students
anywhere in the world can enjoy at any time of
day or night, um, based on when they're interested in
taking the tour. But then we also actually have live
virtual tours that are hosted by students, that are led
(19:53):
by real Brown students. I would say, Ali, you know,
for any prospective student out there, understand that every college
or university's website is going to be beautiful. Um, it
never rains, the snow was always clean. If there are
snow shots, everyone's happy all the time, and every photo
every college is a Disney movie Frozen. I get it.
(20:17):
That's right, that's right, exactly. Everything is great. You know,
every day is perfect in your virtual tour. So if
if a school offers a live virtual tour to the
degree you can learn something about that school from the
students who are leading the tour, I think that's probably
going to do more than you know, the pretty picture
of fall foliage that we're all going to show you.
(20:40):
You know, all of those images are going to be
are going to blur together, I think. But I think
the feeling that you're left with from the people with
whom you interact at that college or university should give
you some sense of whether you think you should continue
to pursue it as an option or not. Now, let
me also, if I can add one caveat. Don't rule
a school entirely in or entirely out based on one
(21:03):
interaction with one individual. Yes, so if you love that
one tour guide, that's great. But if it happened to
not go, well, don't take it as indicative of every
person who is affiliated with that institution about a live tour. Anyway,
I would say that, you know, a few years ago,
when I looked to colleges, Um, I wouldn't you know,
(21:27):
I had some dud I had some dud people that
showed me around. But yes, I could separate them from
the institution. So I'm going to ask you to do
a tiny bit of homework and just say, what are
three what's your three best tips or your best advice
for students that are going to be applying to college
(21:49):
this year. What can you say to them based on
the fact that that we're living in this pandemic right
now that can be helpful to them? Oh gosh, only three? Ali,
I feel so constrained. Um, you know, I'm glad you's fantastic.
I do, and you know, but they really center. I
(22:10):
think they may maybe they'll surprise you, maybe not. So
I would say, you know, be comfortable be as comfortable
as you can with the uncertainty of what this year
is going to look like. UM, I would say, be patient. Um,
you know there there are a lot of families out
there who want to know, again, going back to where
we started, what will you know? What will December look like?
(22:31):
What will January look like? How about what will tomorrow
look like? We you know, we don't know, so you know,
certainly having some perspective that things will be different, being
patient in knowing that as soon as colleges and universities
have policies or decisions that they can make, um, that
they can make them. Um, and know that, um, you know,
this year is going to be different, but they're going
(22:52):
to be successful. They're going to find a way to
be successful there. Look for those areas of support and
our lives, whether it's a parent, guardian, uh, you know, teacher,
mentor coach, look for those areas of support and lean
on those and then also offer offer that support to
other people. So I'm getting beyond three. But but Ali,
(23:14):
I wouldn't focus on grades and test scores. Um. You know,
I would say to students, do the best you can
and understand that we're going to We're going to be
as flexible and as sensitive to how disruptive this year
has been as we possibly can be, and to keep
things in perspective. Logan Pal, I can't tell you how
much you've done for the anxiety for so many I
(23:37):
mean truly, because you know we look for every little
crumb of of understanding and also to ease our own
anxiety about what's going on. You have been very helpful.
Logan Pal is the President of Admissions at Brown University.
UM I may not have to take a zanex later,
so thank you for that. Thank you for your time,
(23:58):
and keep doing the wonderful things you do Brown, And
thank you for talking to me today. Well. Thank you
for the time, Ali, I really appreciate it. And good
luck to all the college going students out there. I
wish them all well. Stick around because up next I
have the Master of College Prep, Martin Bonilla. Right after
this quick break, welcome back, I'm here with my second guest,
(24:33):
Martin Bonia. He is the director of college Counseling at
the College Prep School in Oakland, California. Martin, thank you
so much for being with us, UM. Thanks for having
me Ali. Martin, I gotta tell you. Everybody is talking about,
particularly if you're a parent, what school looks like for
every age. But since I'm talking about a teenager, chances
(24:55):
are they are thinking about applying to college or they
are applying to college. And so I want you on
today to help us kind of figure out what to
do about this. How do we apply these days? I
mean pre pandemic. What were the factors that you advised
kids on when they were considering, uh, applying to universities
(25:19):
while the structure, the infrastructure is still kind of the same.
If you can think of applying to college, um in
three general buckets. Okay, the most important bucket is the
first bucket, you know, that's you know, is the student.
Uh do they have the academic foundation to thrive? You
know in my college curriculum. Um, So there are those
(25:40):
data points high school, you know, trend and grades, testing,
those those pieces. But once that match has been made,
you know, a second bucket, you might say, is support
from the high school, the college councilor you know who's like, Okay,
there is there's Ali Wentworth, there's the high school, and
there's Ali Wentworth at the high school. That's the job
(26:00):
of the college council to sort of capture Ali within
the context of the high school, right, That's that's what
they're sharing, um. And then there's the two teacher recommendations
that kind of share what kind of student, you know,
Ali is classroom and the experiences and you know, what
dynamic does she bring to the classroom contained can she
(26:21):
respectfully agree, disagree, etcetera. And then the sort of third
bucket is more up close and personal things like interviews, essays,
and the depth and breath in the extracurricular involvement for
the student. That is another set of assessment. So that's
sort of the general criteria in which the you know,
(26:42):
kids are are sort of being evaluated, but of course
challenging for the college because they also have institutional priorities
like I have an army of faculty and staff that
work here, and they have children. So if their child applies,
I probably have to take a close look at that.
I have alumni children, I have to look at that.
I have athletics. I have to look at that, you know,
so there are a lot of other factors, um that
(27:05):
that are considered. What happens if their past fail this year,
which is my daughter is for a lot of schools.
In the spring, there was the past fail option, but
there was still you know, two and a half years
of grades and there's one semester of pass and then
there's the senior year, right, so the g p A
will be based on two and a half years and
(27:25):
not you know, three full years, and then they will
be like, Okay, how are you doing senior years? So
that's a that's a slight change. But the academic performance
in the classroom is still the most important criteria that
has not changed. There's also the testing that is a stressful,
uh component of the process for the kids and the parents,
because it's something that parents have informed themselves about since
(27:49):
sophomore year. I know there are a lot of things
I don't control, but I know my kid has to
take this test. So we're going to invest in S
A T prep and then they're going to do all
this practice and like they're ready, and then the test
doesn't happen and then they YEA. I say Martin that
I'm actually glad that the tests might be obsolete. I
(28:14):
don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for this,
but I was a very creative student and I did
not do well in the test, and I didn't like
that I was being judged on that. And I think
that there are a lot of students and a lot
of parents that don't agree with it. That they think
that for some teens it's it's sort of sets them
up to fail. So is there a silver lining? Maybe?
(28:34):
Is it a good thing that that the tests might
be obsolete or that you don't have to apply with them? Um?
I think that there are success stories for schools that
have been test optional. So for the bulk of the colleges,
it's their first time, right, So for the parents, it's like, wait,
test optional? What does that mean? You know? It's like,
(28:55):
well you can if you take the test and there
are sports that you think will help your candidate, See
you submit them? And how do you determine that? Well,
maybe you go to the school's website and you see
what their average is and if you're within the average,
are a little higher? Okay, sounds like a good idea
to the test. If you don't submit them, are they
going to assume that you did badly and that's why
(29:16):
you're not submitting them? I don't. I don't think they're
going to assume that I'm actually proud of the colleges
because they kind of sense the groundswell of stress coming
from the testing, and they're like, what can we do
responsibly as the adults of this process to take the
temperature down if kids aren't able to test? And I
think because there have been schools at all levels of
(29:39):
selectivity that have been test optional and there's a roadmap,
my senses is that those deans of admissions have been
tapping the expertise of their peers who have gone down
that road and been like, oh, if they can do what,
we can do it so too. You know, back to
your question, I think it's going to be an interesting
(30:00):
few years. I think it's entirely possible that we stay
test optional, and it's possible that, you know, if colleges
are able to enroll the kind of classes that they're
excited about and testing did not factor into the decision,
maybe colleges start to use other criteria instead of testing, Like,
you know what, why don't you send me two or
(30:22):
three graded papers, you know, one from English, one from history,
maybe one from a world language. Send me a graded
science exam, a graded math exam, and I can kind
of see your work you know, and how you're doing,
and maybe that becomes criteria and not the big test.
I mean, there's no scenario where universities or colleges will
(30:43):
come up with their own test. Meaning if you're going
to apply to UH Stanford, we have our own specific
Stanford test we want you to take. You don't see
that happening to you. I think that's actually a remote possibility.
You have a lot of loyal alumni you know of
an institution who want to stay engaged and maybe this
(31:06):
sort of traditional interview used to be the way they
would engage. Maybe that they use the army of volunteers
in a different way. It's like, these students have applied
and we would like some more information from the student.
And also we've come up with a little one hour tests, Um,
would you mind hosting that, you know, in some kind
of like office venue for us? I do think that
(31:29):
is possible. So going back to the a point of
stress for the parents and that sort of academic hurdle
right there, So the how is the past bail gonna work? Right?
And then what about you know, the testing? What the
calluses are saying we can go test optional is because
we have other tools that can help us. Right, So
(31:50):
when what the colleges have is data they have for
every high school the kids that applied for as far
back as they want one year, two, three, four, five,
and they can kind of see the trends. But a
more important data piece for them is they can pull
a roster of say the last five to ten years,
(32:11):
and say, of the kids at high school X in
the city of Chicago who have come to my institution,
I have what their profile looked like when they applied,
and we obviously accepted them. They're here, and I have
how they have performed at my college. Right, So it's
how it's how high schools build reputations. Right If if
(32:33):
if say my school, I had five kids at college X,
and you know, on average they had a three point
five three point six unweighted g p A from my school,
but they were at the college and they have three eights,
you know, three five, three point nine. As it grew up,
you're going to set yourself as the original person. Wow,
the academic foundation that these kids have built at this
(32:57):
high school is really aligning well with our college curriculum.
They are a great match for us. They are outperformed.
We accepted them for many reasons, but they in the
most important thing, they are really really an x They
are in alignment with our curriculum. They are really hitting
a home run. That is how high schools build their reputation.
(33:17):
So I think the colleges are going to rely on
that kind of data piece. Where it might hurt is
I go to a most likely a public institution, and uh,
in the spring, I went past fail and I don't
have any testing, and it's a new high school where
(33:40):
there's new data, where there's no set like I think,
go back and look what's happened. So for for you know,
kids in that situation, I think, in to answer your question,
a college might identify that student as somebody they want
on campus because all the other factors are so compelling,
but they're not sure, so they might design kind of
special you know, exam that maybe even it's just sent
(34:04):
to the college counselor, and I have to sort of
procter that. Now, let me ask you this, Because of
COVID nineteen, a lot of schools are losing money, a
lot of colleges and universities are losing money. And how
do you foresee that translating into scholarships and financial aid.
Oh wow. Um. I think the well the well endowed
(34:25):
schools are still going to be able to deliver, because
that's just a priority. But I do think that there's
a lot of schools that are need aware to begin with.
Whole will now be even more need aware, and and
colleges might have to make a choice of I need
to enroll a class, you know, and and these families
(34:49):
want to come, and and in this year, you know,
they are a full pay family, and they're in the ballpark,
and based on all other factors, I probably want to
take more of them, but I also want to round
out the class. And I might see I might make
a strategic decision and say, I've only got I can
(35:09):
take five middle class kids and offer them ten thousand,
or I can offer one kid fifty, right, because that's
what they that's what they need to come. I think.
I think when you're in that bracket and you're trying
to fill a class, you're like, this is a year
(35:30):
where you know, my hands are tied. I have to offer,
you know, ten thousand to these five families because I
have maybe one or two or three of them will come.
I could offer fifty for this one kid, and I
don't even know if they'll come. So from the college side,
I think they are dealing with what we're dealing with,
uncertainty and if they can have a certainty, I know
(35:53):
you want to come UM, I know you can pay,
and you know you're not You're not to break the budget.
That leaves you money in the bank. For me, UM,
I think that community is going to do well and
the next I mean that that changes the whole diversity
of those upcoming college classes. You know what I mean?
(36:15):
That should be incredibly worrisome for us. Yeah, I mean
what has made college UM so attractive to kids is right, like,
if you just go to the website for any private,
relative selective school and you go to their admissions website,
one of the things you're you're you can click on
(36:36):
is like what is the profile of the incoming class?
And the colleges are so proud, right, you know, you
have the little map of the US and it's like
fifty kids from California and twenty from Minnesota, and like
right there showing you it's like we have all fifty
states represented. Ten to twelve percent of our kids are
coming from outside the US, from three D countries and
(36:57):
you know, or first in their family leads to go
to college, right like they're telling you it's like this,
you know, is what we have to offer. I think
that's gonna be harder. Having geographic balance might be something
that is sacrificed. But I do think as far as
things like diversity of voices and experiences are still going
(37:17):
to be valued. It's an institutional priority, you know, for
the colleges, and they will work very hard to have
that kind of balance in the class. I think it'll
change for some middle for some middle class kids. I
think for my parent community, I try and get them
to focus what they can control. I help them identify
(37:38):
you can't control, you can't control who's applying early decision,
like is this a good bet traditionally, but we don't
know what the fall is gonna look like. Everything is
a little bit of a risk. But you know, Mrs Jones,
here's what you can focus on. And what are you
telling Mrs Jones? What can we telling Mrs Jones. She's like, look, Martin,
you're so funny, ha ha ha. I've come to your
(37:59):
sopht Mark parent night, and then I went to your
junior parent night and Mrs j yeah, we're just you're
giving us appropriate doses of you know, like what we
should be thinking about. But now I'm here and I'm
a senior parent and I need you to tell me
what to do because I don't know what it is.
And I'm like, okay, I get it. I've told you
(38:21):
that this is a process where you have to allow
your child to step into the spotlight and you have
to kind of take a step back and that can
be hard. Number One, be a champion for your child.
Don't be a critic right there. Very sensitive right now,
So like, don't insist on reading the essay and being like,
you know, I really couldn't sleep. But in the second
paragraph you use the word galvanized, and I think this
(38:43):
word might be better. That's not helpful, so I think
it Just just support your child, chair them on and
just say you've got this. I have full confidence in
you if you need me off for help, but don't
insist on it. Um. I tell Mrs Jones that she
needs to say her relationship with her child evolving. She's
(39:03):
used to being the manager, but the kids are not
dealing well with directives right now. They're trying to be
a little more independent. So I told Mrs Jones, just
start thinking of yourself for as a consultant for your child,
not as the manager. So just speak. It's like, oh
what happened, it's cool today. Oh that happened. I had
a similar experience at your age. Here was here was
(39:24):
the scenario. Here's how I handled it, Here's how it
worked out. UM, good luck. If you need me, I'm
happy to share other things as opposed to you need
to do this because the relationship is changing. Even with me.
When I first start working with the kids, I give
them colleges and I give them things to do, and
they're like, well, you're the college council, so I'm just
gonna do what you say. But now when I give
(39:45):
the stuff, it's like, I'm going to take that under consideration.
Thank you for suggesting those three schools. I'm gonna do
my own research. I will get back to and tell
you how i feel. I'm like perfect that. What are
you telling parents? Um about virtual tours? A lot of
students weren't able to go see colleges this spring, and
so they're basically choosing off of uh, you know, some
(40:10):
made little film or some you know, visual utopia that
they're seeing online. That's not really visiting schools. It's not
visiting schools on personality. And you haven't you haven't gotten
to This would have been your summer, right, Yeah, I
was supposed to do that, you know, get a get
(40:31):
a rental car and just drive around and look at schools. Sure,
I mean there is a benefit to that, but truthfully,
it's like my kids are like, they have to make
a case. Why is the school going to be on
my list? Why is it not on the list? And
they have to kind of prove it to me, and
it's work and they're like, oh, Martin post COVID. It's
so much easier because I just go to you know,
(40:53):
Baits College, you know, admissions visit and they have an
open house and I click and I put my headphones on,
and you know, someone gives a live presentation, which leads
to a live tour, which then leads to a way
if you want more, you know, you can sit in
on a student panel. You can like all that research
(41:14):
you wanted me to do. I don't have to just
take notes from the virtual experiences. So the shopping part
is easier for the kids. So that might stick right.
I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna miss getting fried claims
at friendlyies and the whole ritual of driving with my daughter.
But you're making me feel better because I really thought
we were at such a disadvantage because we didn't actually,
you know, stomp our sneakers across the grounds. I think,
(41:38):
you know, when I worked on college admission, it's been
like two months traveling around the country rental cars, hotels,
all that the colleges are going to save a lot
of money, and so well parents, by the way, and
so well parents. So I think this is this is
this is a good thing because also there's so many
families that do not have the opportunity to colleges. Period.
(42:00):
I did not see my college, you know, I just
didn't have the resources for that. So I think that's
a good thing overall. It gives everybody access. What is
that criteria that you tell your students to consider when
narrowing down what colleges they want to apply to. I
kind of break it down for them into three components.
One is, you know, they should look at the history
(42:21):
and the philosophy of the school. Um, I always tell
them to do a Google map. What does it take
to get there? Is at one plane and a taxi
writer or is it two planes and a bus like
That's that will have an impact on them. Things like
size and locations, so just basic facts of the institution.
But the second part is more specific to the student.
(42:43):
What are your current academic and intellectual interests and how
will those interests be served at that institution? So that's
when they have to dig into, like the academic program
that the school has. Does it have a quar curriculum?
Does it not? Is it really unstructured? You know, how
is that going to affect you? Um, are your majors?
There are there special opportunities academically, So they're kind of like, oh,
(43:06):
I have to see my So you're telling me, Martin,
I have to see myself. How will I satisfy myself
academically at the school for four years? I'm like, right,
what were your four year academic plan look like? If
you go here, will it serve you well? Like? Great?
Got it? And then the third part it's a little
harder to do, but that's you know, what kind of
kids are you going to be surrounded by? That's that's
difficult to assess. But there are places to look for clues. Um,
(43:30):
you know, I tell the kids what are your current
you know, not you know, non scholastic interests, So like, well,
I like science, olympia, ad and robotics and you know Shakespeare.
I'm like, great, let's look at the full menu of
activities at that institution and try and find yourself in
these clubs. So when we pluck you out of your
lovely home and are our nice, warm, fuzzy school atmosphere
(43:55):
and pluck you down in small town Illinois, what resources
are there at that school where you're going to be
able to recreate your community of friends? Is there going
to be a soft landing? Um? And then also a
good other place to get information is in the student newspaper,
which tends to be you know, independent from the institution.
And I don't tell the kids they have to read
(44:17):
all that, but I'm like, what are the headlines, what
are the letters to the editor. There's a calendar of events.
You can kind of see what's happening, and you will
learn something about the community even though you're not physically there.
And then I tell them it's like, okay, like, based
on this minute back finding exercise, what is your impression
(44:37):
thumbs up, thumbs down. I don't know, give me more information.
That's sort of a first first review. Excellent And what
are you okay? So we've gone through the shopping now
application wise, what kind of advice do you have for parents?
How about? How about concerning the essay? I know you're
saying don't micromanage them, but should they change? Does this
(44:58):
subject change now that we're in a pandemic? I guess
all the big advice I have is like, maybe don't
write about COVID right, Um, you know, now we're in COVID,
and an instinct might be like I'm going to tell
the college like what happened to me, But it's happening
to all of us. And if the essay is supposed
to come from a unique place, um, that's not something
(45:20):
that's going to be unique. We all have, you know
that story. I mean, there's so many other things going
on in our world right now that it just might
not have the impact the impact. So I would say
we all had stories pre March, and maybe that good
advice would be to sort of dig into those stories
(45:41):
and those might reflect better on the kid. And then
just as far as parents, college councils, are well aware
of the voice, of the authenticity of a seventeen year
old voice apparent reading as it can cause more stress.
You know, I'm completely hands off for that reason. UM,
(46:01):
I want to ask you a question, Martin, because you know,
we've we've heard a lot of cautionary tales about social
media in terms of college acceptance. I have a very
naive question as a parent, which is do they when
they see let's say, instat stories of a lot of partying,
a lot of alcoholism, um or uh, sort of inappropriate
(46:25):
behavior socially, does that have an effect on their admissions? Oh? Yes,
because because if it's also like, right, you were overserved
at a party and somebody recorded you and you said
something inappropriate, um, that can easily be beheld against you.
(46:46):
And again from the college point of view, what do
you know? My parents asked, like, what is it? What
is it about activities and these recommendations. I'm like, well,
your child lives in your house. They live in your house.
But what you're asking, it's like, I want to come
live in your house for four years. You're going to
be the parents, right, You're going to come live in
(47:07):
my house for four years and guess what as the college,
I want well behaved children, So that's that's important. Yeah,
you have to remain a good citizen, not just of
your school, but beyond all. Right, now, I've gotten so
many great nuggets of wisdom for you. And as we
end this conversation, are there any more big headlines or
(47:28):
big bullet points of advice you can give to parents
in the application process? Yes? Um, right now, I'm just
gonna take your situation. Ali. You probably probably have an
extended family, and your partner probably has an extended family.
And because your daughter is going to be a senior,
everyone's going to want to be in their business. Oh,
(47:50):
you're applying to college. Where are you applying? Why are
you applying there? These are the schools I like, why
aren't you applying to that? For these kids, it can
be a very personal process. It's a very personal journey.
So I think it's important for parents to protect your
kid and help them pivot in those uncomfortable conversations during
the holidays, even if it's on zoom. Um, that's great information,
thank you so much. Just pivot to redirect the conversation.
(48:13):
But the parents can be very helpful, um, and redirecting
that conversation. Um, I think something very important to me
as a college counselor. It takes a lot of work
two get kids to ten to twelve schools to apply
to that are well rounded, that we are protecting them
(48:33):
and has a certain amount of reaches. If you can
imagine a pyramid, you know for schools three schools, two schools,
one school, one super reach, two good reaches, three probables
and four high probability schools. That's great, that kid is
being set up for mostly good news. That's a good thing.
But it is important for parents not to flip the
(48:56):
pyramid the other way, right, like it's like, oh, one
high problem, Like we're just we're we're real risk takers.
That's really hard. It's easy for the parents to want that.
It's hard for the kids emotionally too to look at
the selectivity of the group of schools on their listen
go wow, wow, this is this is you know, hazardous emotionally,
(49:17):
like I'm stressed. So it's important for the parents to
respect the well rounded list. And also it's a responsibility,
I think of the parents to celebrate all of the
schools on the list when they are identified. So even
if a parent doesn't know, you know, about a school.
It's their job to go get intelligence on that school
and talk about that school. You know what, darling, you
(49:40):
like that school. I found out a friend of mine,
you know, their daughter went there and she said great things,
and I went and I did the tour too, and like,
it looks really cool and I can see why you
like it. They have to talk about all the schools
because for the kids, that validates the school for them.
And I think, you know, self care, we talk a
lot about self are in this pandemic um. The families
(50:02):
who I think have handled uh COVID since March really
well are the families that turned self care into family care.
Waking up at the same time together and going on
on walks in their neighborhood and then coming back and
having breakfast together instead of dinner, right setting up the day.
And then you know, some families have taken language classes together,
(50:26):
you know, for an hour, it's like, oh, we're going
to do French together, We're gonna go guarden together, We're
going to build a shed together, and we'll see in
the opposite where there was unstructured situations and I would
be talking to some you know, kids at you know, noon,
and they were just waking up and I was like, well,
what happened? I was watching Netflix until you know, and
(50:49):
they just you know which, By the way, I think
that was okay at the beginning of quarantine, because I
think that a lot of kids needed to Everybody was scared,
there was a lot of stress. They needed to kind
of you know, go go inside a little bit. But
I agree with you that after a couple of weeks
of that, everybody had to kind of all right, you know,
(51:12):
how are we going to structure, like you said, how
we're going to structure our day, how we're going to
structure our life? And basically I'm I'm saying it's okay
to me because I let my kids do that for
a couple of weeks, you know, because I was kind
of doing the same thing. Yeah. I think one other
last anecdote, especially as you get closer to like the
kid has applied and they're going to hear is that,
(51:35):
um they feel like, oh what if I don't get in,
They're going to be so disappointed. You know. It's probably
a good idea for parents Huven starting now to start
sharing you know, times in their lives when things didn't
go their way. I didn't get into all my colleges
or I really wanted that job at this agency when
I got out of college, and I didn't get it,
and so I made a laft And you know, they
(51:58):
just they think it's been a smooth row for you, Martin. Oh, Martin,
I have so many stories my children. They know I
think I think it's helpful for them. Just absolutely that
it's gonna be okay and that things will happen. Martin Bonia,
thank you so much. This was so incredibly helpful pleasure, Ali.
Thank you for including me. Thank you to my guests,
(52:21):
Logan Powell and Martin Bonia, and thank you all for listening.
Be sure to subscribe, rate and leave a review, and
follow me in my undoctored posts on social media. I'm
on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth and on Instagram at
the Real Ali Wentworth. Go ask Ali is a production
of Shonda land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.
(52:41):
For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio hiam Elli Wentworth
and you're listening to Go ask Alli. Where this season
we try to figure out how to grow a teenager
in a pandemic. On this episode, we're diving into an
(00:26):
arena that has had a lot of families with teens
really stressed out, and that's college. And I am one
of those parents that is completely stressing out. I have
a rising senior, Elliott, who is right now applying to
a number of colleges. I remember when I applied to college,
and it was very simple. I applied to an arts
(00:48):
college that pretty much guaranteed they'd accept me based on
my paintings, and I just stopped there. I didn't even
want to go through the stress of applying to school.
So this is going to be an interesting topic not
only for me, but for most of the parents listening
who have kids who will apply have applied to college
during a pandemic. It's an overwhelming and trigger inducing topics.
(01:10):
So I opened it up. I want to discuss it
with two different people. One of them is Logan Powell.
He's the head of emissions at Brown and he's going
to share his perspective from within an institution. And then
Martin Bonihah, the master at College Prep, and what his
new landscape means for the application process and whether higher
education makes sense right now. First up, here's my conversation
(01:33):
with Logan Power. Welcome Logan, Thank you allie. It's great
to be with you. I'm assuming you are completely inundated
and drowning in all kinds of emails and calls about
what the hell is going on in college share. Well,
you know, I'm getting a lot of questions that presume
(01:54):
I'm a fortune teller, and uh, and so I share
the frustrations that are applicants and parents and incoming students
have because they want to know what the future will
look like. And and I wish, I wish I could
tell them Alle and I and it changes and even
if you if you know today, it's different tomorrow exactly. Well,
(02:16):
I'm uh selfishly, i have a daughter who's going to
be a senior next year, and I've noticed a great
amount of anxiety between her and her friends about what
it's all going to look like for them applying. And
then I have, you know, I know so many teenagers
that are are going to college for the first time
this fall and they don't know what that looks like.
(02:37):
This is a huge question, and you can just pretend
we're having technical difficulty if you want to answer. But
do you think um online education is the future for universities.
I think for some universities it may be. So you know,
with almost any question we're asked about college admissions, the
(02:59):
future of colle as you admissions, it depends those who
can commute to school, those who go to school very locally,
those who attend community college. Is an online experience may
be the way for them to go, It may be
the way for them to go now, and it may
be the wave of the future for them. However, there
is another population of students who are really largely trending
(03:20):
towards our residential experience. So you know, there is a
big part of the college experience that is about learning
from your classmates. It's it's not just about what happens
in the classroom. It's about those spontaneous conversations about philosophy
and politics and economics that happen well after a class
has ended for the day. The other part of it,
it's really helpful and and frankly critical. We think UM
(03:43):
are the sort of the social educational benefits UM, you know,
having to navigate interpersonal relationships in some cases for the
first time. That's really a critical part of the college
experience that you can't replicate online. So I do think
there is a future for online and patient, but I
don't think that online education is the only future for
(04:04):
probably a majority of students. I think most students still
want to go to college. I think I think most
students still want to move, you know, your your old family,
like three pound couch up two flights of stairs into
your dorm room. Right, that's part of the experience, and
it sounds exciting, can wait, I think and beyond? So
(04:26):
I get it. I get it. I mean, I know
and I think too about a lot of people in
UM communities that are worried about a second wave of
a virus, another pandemic, and there seems to be a
sense of well, maybe I won't maybe I'll stay and
go to a state school. That way, if there's another pandemic,
(04:47):
I'm at home, I'm nearby, which I mean, I do
understand that argument. However, I'm I believe in the full
college experience and I think particularly for international students, they're
gonna want a full college experience. Um Mitchell Stevens, who's
an associate producer of education at Stanford, said before the pandemic,
(05:08):
higher education was in many ways held together by prayer
band aids. International students in a lot of debt. So too,
isn't it. I know, I know, UM, I'm sure you're
getting inundated with parents saying, well, if it's gonna be virtual,
(05:29):
then I don't want to spend all this money because
I'm going to be feeding my kids at home and
housing them. How do you answer that question? Well, so far,
you know, I can speak in part for what Brown
is doing, and I can you know, say a word
about what's happening nationally. At Brown, we are making every
plan possible for students to be back on campus. Students
(05:50):
have the choice to to learn virtually and and we
certainly respect, um, you know, if they have either a
health concern, if there's some of the reason and why
they can't be on campus, then we certainly uh, you know,
we we give them room for that, we give them
space to exercise that freedom. But we are inviting students
back to campus, and we have a plan in place
(06:10):
changing from a two semester model to a trimester model
to allow for de dentification or that you'll hear a
lot this this upcoming academic year. Um, well, name my
book and there you go. So we have a plan
that will allow students to come back to campus in
a in a stagger fashion and in a dednsified fashion.
(06:31):
Not every school can do that now, and I should say,
in addition to that, there will obviously be rigorous testing. Uh,
there will be the ability to contact trace. We have
plans in place to isolate students who do test positive.
If it does happen, courses will will certainly have a
hybrid component to them. Uh, classes will look different. You
know that that you know, the the large class of
(06:54):
a hundred students sitting side by side and an auditorium
won't happen this year, um, But de identified classes will
happen this year. Students will live in dorms this year.
That that will all happen for us this year as
of now. Yes, I know tomorrow if this podcast things
could change. That's that this is the new normal world
(07:14):
we live in. Though. That's exactly right, um work school. Um,
So this includes international students financial aid students. That's right, yep, great,
that's right. We're in a fortunate position. There are there
are other schools who, uh you know, who aren't as
financially secure, and you know, certainly that's understandable. They've had
(07:36):
to take pretty major hits. You see, there's some pretty
big shocks to the system, um, not just for Higher
ED but for for everyone frankly. And the shocks to
the system are you know, really large decreases in revenue
that some colleges and universities face. At the same time,
you have increased costs for you know, installing testing and
uh you know, in all of the upgrades you and
(07:58):
changes you have to make on camp and by the way,
financial aid you know, students now because their families have
taken financial hits. Um. You know, on the on the
one hand, colleges and universities have lost some revenue because
students aren't maybe going to college, they're taking gap years
or leaves of absence. And then on the other hand,
you have students who are planning become who need more
(08:19):
financial aid than they ever have before in addition to
all of the normal costs you incur. So it's a
it's a two part shock to the system. That's that's
pretty tough for a lot of places to weather. So
let me ask you some questions about that. One is, UM,
how does this work if a lot of students this
year say I'm so excited to be going to Brown,
(08:41):
I'm going to take a gap year or I'm going
to defer, how does that affect the next group of
students coming in? Will be such an influx? Won't you
be flooded with students? And won't you be somewhat anemic
next year if everybody's taking gap years because they don't
want to be virtual. I think that's the concertain that
that perspective applicants would have. It's not a concern they
(09:04):
need to have with us. You know, we were very
judicious in the number of gap year requests we granted.
Disruptive would be a kind a kind term to use
for what has happened to families who are thinking about
the college process. So we have returning families we think about,
we have incoming first year families we think about UM,
(09:26):
and we have prospective families we think about. And so
those prospective families I think are in many cases really
concerned that if UM, if you grant, say a hundred
gap year requests, that's a hundred fewer spaces in next
year's class that are available for for applicants in that
next year. That's not the case for us again, because
we were really thoughtful and cautious about how many gap
(09:49):
years we offered UM, knowing that there was going to
be some feeling of unfairness to some group of students, uh,
you know, who might have been impacted. But what we
really thought long and hard about was, if you're going
to take a gap year, is that a gap year
you would have done normally? Because we are allowing students
to come to campus, we're encouraging them at this point
(10:10):
to come to campus. And when there have been you know,
really compelling reasons that we've seen, required military service, religious obligations,
health concerns, all of those things, of course we are
more generous about what I tould say. What about students
that want to do something right now in an activist
kind of way to help people that have been affected
(10:33):
by the by the pandemic. Have you seen that? Have
you seen people saying, look, I'm gonna take a gap
here because I want to dot dot dot We want
to house right right. We we do see that, Alley,
and and we appreciate it more than I can tell you.
We're in a fortunate position because our first year students
at Brown actually don't start until January, and they'll do
a spring term and a summer term. And so as
(10:53):
a result of that, we've said, please do all the
outreach you ken, and do it this fall. We would
love for you to do that, and we have that
who have done that, and we hope that they continue
that in the fall while maintaining all of the appropriate
precautions to remain safe and come here ready to go.
Are you asking the question in applications as you're in
the future, what did you do during the pandemic? Is
(11:15):
that going to be a an application question? It's a
it's a good it's a really good question. So, you know,
thinking about how this disrupted this upcoming class of applicants,
not just the country but around the world. For some
of our prospective families, it has been heartrenching. It has
you know, it has had catastrophic consequences for their families,
(11:37):
and that level of devastation we're going to see and
we're going to be sensitive to and it's it's going
to be difficult to read every time we see it,
to be sure. So let me talk about another issue
that I've I'm hearing from my teenage pals about past
fail grades. You know, there's a concern now that you
know they work so hard, um, done so well, and
(12:00):
now in their senior year, the teachers are saying, we're
going to be past fail and to them, to the teenagers,
it's not showing you how much work they've done, how
much progress they've had, or the fact that it's an A.
You know, it could be a C minus, but no one,
no one knows. Um. I think there's a huge concern
about that for them, right right. I think there are
(12:24):
I think there are two ways of looking at it. Ali,
I think there's that concern, and we have this here
that that that same concern, by the way, exists at
the college level. I mean we have you know, across
the country, we have a group of incoming seniors who
are applying to law school, business school, medical school, applying
to PhD programs who were saying, I need a g
p A to demonstrate that I'm prepared for graduate professional
(12:44):
study or to show my future employer. Uh, that that
I'm a good student. The flip side to that coin, though,
is uh this digital divide that has existed for years
that has been exacerbated as a result of the pandemic UM.
You know, I I personally know Brown families where the
student has support and resources and has a private sort
(13:06):
of space in the home to study UM and and
that and and has you know too caring and and
supportive parents who are there for them. And I know
Brown students who don't have a home to go home to.
They stayed on campus because there is no home for them,
or the home or the home maybe five people in
a two bedroom apartment, and there may be no WiFi
(13:27):
in their home. And so for that student to be
asked to perform at the same level they did before,
that student who may not have WiFi, who may not
have a private study space, who may not have the
support of parents, should we ask that student to be
judged on the A B C. D UH rubric. You know,
some would argue that that's unfair as well, And so
(13:47):
I think there are two sides to it. I completely
agree with you. I think so much about so many
families who have been completely devastated by the pandemic. And
I think about families not only know they don't have WiFi,
but suddenly both of their parents are unemployed and they
have to go get a job and they have to
(14:07):
now support the family unit in a way they didn't
have to before. So it's not just about great. So,
I mean, I think that's fantastic. We're gonna take a
short break and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more,
go ask Alley. The S A T S is another
(14:33):
thing I know that banging your head against a while
to hear that's ever asked me about. They haven't let's
throw the whole thing away. Um, but that's that has
an effect too now because of the pandemic in many ways. Um.
And that's for students of all socio economic backgrounds. So
(14:54):
how do you how do you sort of speak to
students about that now? Right? College testing organizations, So the
S A T and the A C T they've done
everything they can. I'm not intending to knock them in
any way, but they they also have to be concerned
about the health of the students who are coming to
take the test. They also have to be concerned about
(15:15):
test security, which is why in one case at least
there was no testing from home option. But they also
have to think about reliable uh Internet connections for students
who may have wanted to to take the test online.
They have to think about where the tests are offered.
If it's offered in a high school. But so say,
say Ali, for example, they wanted to offer the S
(15:36):
A T R A c T in the city of
Chicago to Chicago Public school. Well, Chicago public schools aren't
open this fall, So what then do you? What then
do you do? There aren't There aren't a whole lot
of options left for those students, nor for the testing agency.
So I don't blame them for this. It's not their fault.
For sure, they're they're taking the precautions that they think
(15:57):
are appropriate for the students, though it is alted in
I think widespread anxiety built on on the uncertainty of
whether or not a test will be available, and then
then whether or not they'll be penalized for not having
a test, or for having one test when they would
have normally had three, five, or however many they normally
(16:18):
would have taken. And so what we're doing is um
is to do the best we can to say, look,
will take all the information that's available from you and
from your school and beyond that. We can't ask anything
more of you, and and we just want you to
be We want you to be healthy, we want you
to be safe, we want you to be with your family.
Take the precautions you need to take. We're going to
(16:39):
do the best job we can. And the sooner we
all get comfortable with uncertainty, the more at peace will be.
Even even if it's not what we want, will at
least have some understanding that this is the reality we
live in for at least a year. I mean, your
admissions process this year is going to be something. It's
going to be a complete I mean really, it's it's
(17:00):
gonna have to kind of change all the optics on
how you look at an application right to some degree. Yes, Ali,
we we will. You know certainly that the core components
remain the same, which is to say we always put
people first. Um. I think I speak from most colleges
and universities in the country and saying we should have
(17:20):
never made a decision based on standardized testing alone. I
think that's not the way to go. I think that's
an unfortunate policy. If that's never been the policy at Brown,
and it's not going to be the policy this year.
We're not going to make decisions based on the presence
or absence of standardized testing. UM. Now, in this case,
(17:40):
I should say testing should not have been determinative of
a particular outcome this year. Like the rest of the country,
we are test optional because it's it's the right thing
to do, uh for for our applicants this year. So
it will be it will be different. But I think
the key for us is to not hold it against
the students who don't have test scores, because I've heard
from family least with you know, with enormous resources, and
(18:04):
students with no resources, wh all say the same thing,
you can't you can't get in to take a test.
I mean, this is affecting everyone in the same way.
And it doesn't matter what your socio economic status is.
If the schools are closed and you can't take the
s A T you can't take the s A T UM.
And so we we we realized that and we're going
to take that into consideration, right, I mean, which one
(18:25):
could say about voting and everything else right now, So
and my my last question is UM, now that we're
all going to be taking virtual tours, um, have you
had meetings about what that? You know, I've seen your
virtual tour now, but I think universities, at least for
the next year or so, that's the only way, you know,
(18:46):
students that are that are browsing are going to be
able to see them, not on foot, not by intuition,
but by this virtual tour. Do you feel any pressure
to add, you know, put a lot of bells and
whistles in your tour? I mean, how do you really
show what your university is online? Right? That's a great question.
(19:10):
So there are all these new buzzwords that you here
related to the times in which we find ourselves living
right now. And you know we talked about d dentification.
The other popular buzzword is is asynchronous or asynchronicity. And
so what that means is how do you offer tours
and information sessions to students around the world in many
(19:33):
different time zones? And so what we do Our approach
has been to offer sort of a buffet of options,
if you will. So we have recorded tours that students
anywhere in the world can enjoy at any time of
day or night, um, based on when they're interested in
taking the tour. But then we also actually have live
virtual tours that are hosted by students, that are led
(19:53):
by real Brown students. I would say, Ali, you know,
for any prospective student out there, understand that every college
or university's website is going to be beautiful. Um, it
never rains, the snow was always clean. If there are
snow shots, everyone's happy all the time, and every photo
every college is a Disney movie Frozen. I get it.
(20:17):
That's right, that's right, exactly. Everything is great. You know,
every day is perfect in your virtual tour. So if
if a school offers a live virtual tour to the
degree you can learn something about that school from the
students who are leading the tour, I think that's probably
going to do more than you know, the pretty picture
of fall foliage that we're all going to show you.
(20:40):
You know, all of those images are going to be
are going to blur together, I think. But I think
the feeling that you're left with from the people with
whom you interact at that college or university should give
you some sense of whether you think you should continue
to pursue it as an option or not. Now, let
me also, if I can add one caveat. Don't rule
a school entirely in or entirely out based on one
(21:03):
interaction with one individual. Yes, so if you love that
one tour guide, that's great. But if it happened to
not go, well, don't take it as indicative of every
person who is affiliated with that institution about a live tour. Anyway,
I would say that, you know, a few years ago,
when I looked to colleges, Um, I wouldn't you know,
(21:27):
I had some dud I had some dud people that
showed me around. But yes, I could separate them from
the institution. So I'm going to ask you to do
a tiny bit of homework and just say, what are
three what's your three best tips or your best advice
for students that are going to be applying to college
(21:49):
this year. What can you say to them based on
the fact that that we're living in this pandemic right
now that can be helpful to them? Oh gosh, only three? Ali,
I feel so constrained. Um, you know, I'm glad you's fantastic.
I do, and you know, but they really center. I
(22:10):
think they may maybe they'll surprise you, maybe not. So
I would say, you know, be comfortable be as comfortable
as you can with the uncertainty of what this year
is going to look like. UM, I would say, be patient. Um,
you know there there are a lot of families out
there who want to know, again, going back to where
we started, what will you know? What will December look like?
(22:31):
What will January look like? How about what will tomorrow
look like? We you know, we don't know, so you know,
certainly having some perspective that things will be different, being
patient in knowing that as soon as colleges and universities
have policies or decisions that they can make, um, that
they can make them. Um, and know that, um, you know,
this year is going to be different, but they're going
(22:52):
to be successful. They're going to find a way to
be successful there. Look for those areas of support and
our lives, whether it's a parent, guardian, uh, you know, teacher,
mentor coach, look for those areas of support and lean
on those and then also offer offer that support to
other people. So I'm getting beyond three. But but Ali,
(23:14):
I wouldn't focus on grades and test scores. Um. You know,
I would say to students, do the best you can
and understand that we're going to We're going to be
as flexible and as sensitive to how disruptive this year
has been as we possibly can be, and to keep
things in perspective. Logan Pal, I can't tell you how
much you've done for the anxiety for so many I
(23:37):
mean truly, because you know we look for every little
crumb of of understanding and also to ease our own
anxiety about what's going on. You have been very helpful.
Logan Pal is the President of Admissions at Brown University.
UM I may not have to take a zanex later,
so thank you for that. Thank you for your time,
(23:58):
and keep doing the wonderful things you do Brown, And
thank you for talking to me today. Well. Thank you
for the time, Ali, I really appreciate it. And good
luck to all the college going students out there. I
wish them all well. Stick around because up next I
have the Master of College Prep, Martin Bonilla. Right after
this quick break, welcome back, I'm here with my second guest,
(24:33):
Martin Bonia. He is the director of college Counseling at
the College Prep School in Oakland, California. Martin, thank you
so much for being with us, UM. Thanks for having
me Ali. Martin, I gotta tell you. Everybody is talking about,
particularly if you're a parent, what school looks like for
every age. But since I'm talking about a teenager, chances
(24:55):
are they are thinking about applying to college or they
are applying to college. And so I want you on
today to help us kind of figure out what to
do about this. How do we apply these days? I
mean pre pandemic. What were the factors that you advised
kids on when they were considering, uh, applying to universities
(25:19):
while the structure, the infrastructure is still kind of the same.
If you can think of applying to college, um in
three general buckets. Okay, the most important bucket is the
first bucket, you know, that's you know, is the student.
Uh do they have the academic foundation to thrive? You
know in my college curriculum. Um, So there are those
(25:40):
data points high school, you know, trend and grades, testing,
those those pieces. But once that match has been made,
you know, a second bucket, you might say, is support
from the high school, the college councilor you know who's like, Okay,
there is there's Ali Wentworth, there's the high school, and
there's Ali Wentworth at the high school. That's the job
(26:00):
of the college council to sort of capture Ali within
the context of the high school, right, That's that's what
they're sharing, um. And then there's the two teacher recommendations
that kind of share what kind of student, you know,
Ali is classroom and the experiences and you know, what
dynamic does she bring to the classroom contained can she
(26:21):
respectfully agree, disagree, etcetera. And then the sort of third
bucket is more up close and personal things like interviews, essays,
and the depth and breath in the extracurricular involvement for
the student. That is another set of assessment. So that's
sort of the general criteria in which the you know,
(26:42):
kids are are sort of being evaluated, but of course
challenging for the college because they also have institutional priorities
like I have an army of faculty and staff that
work here, and they have children. So if their child applies,
I probably have to take a close look at that.
I have alumni children, I have to look at that.
I have athletics. I have to look at that, you know,
so there are a lot of other factors, um that
(27:05):
that are considered. What happens if their past fail this year,
which is my daughter is for a lot of schools.
In the spring, there was the past fail option, but
there was still you know, two and a half years
of grades and there's one semester of pass and then
there's the senior year, right, so the g p A
will be based on two and a half years and
(27:25):
not you know, three full years, and then they will
be like, Okay, how are you doing senior years? So
that's a that's a slight change. But the academic performance
in the classroom is still the most important criteria that
has not changed. There's also the testing that is a stressful,
uh component of the process for the kids and the parents,
because it's something that parents have informed themselves about since
(27:49):
sophomore year. I know there are a lot of things
I don't control, but I know my kid has to
take this test. So we're going to invest in S
A T prep and then they're going to do all
this practice and like they're ready, and then the test
doesn't happen and then they YEA. I say Martin that
I'm actually glad that the tests might be obsolete. I
(28:14):
don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for this,
but I was a very creative student and I did
not do well in the test, and I didn't like
that I was being judged on that. And I think
that there are a lot of students and a lot
of parents that don't agree with it. That they think
that for some teens it's it's sort of sets them
up to fail. So is there a silver lining? Maybe?
(28:34):
Is it a good thing that that the tests might
be obsolete or that you don't have to apply with them? Um?
I think that there are success stories for schools that
have been test optional. So for the bulk of the colleges,
it's their first time, right, So for the parents, it's like, wait,
test optional? What does that mean? You know? It's like,
(28:55):
well you can if you take the test and there
are sports that you think will help your candidate, See
you submit them? And how do you determine that? Well,
maybe you go to the school's website and you see
what their average is and if you're within the average,
are a little higher? Okay, sounds like a good idea
to the test. If you don't submit them, are they
going to assume that you did badly and that's why
(29:16):
you're not submitting them? I don't. I don't think they're
going to assume that I'm actually proud of the colleges
because they kind of sense the groundswell of stress coming
from the testing, and they're like, what can we do
responsibly as the adults of this process to take the
temperature down if kids aren't able to test? And I
think because there have been schools at all levels of
(29:39):
selectivity that have been test optional and there's a roadmap,
my senses is that those deans of admissions have been
tapping the expertise of their peers who have gone down
that road and been like, oh, if they can do what,
we can do it so too. You know, back to
your question, I think it's going to be an interesting
(30:00):
few years. I think it's entirely possible that we stay
test optional, and it's possible that, you know, if colleges
are able to enroll the kind of classes that they're
excited about and testing did not factor into the decision,
maybe colleges start to use other criteria instead of testing, Like,
you know what, why don't you send me two or
(30:22):
three graded papers, you know, one from English, one from history,
maybe one from a world language. Send me a graded
science exam, a graded math exam, and I can kind
of see your work you know, and how you're doing,
and maybe that becomes criteria and not the big test.
I mean, there's no scenario where universities or colleges will
(30:43):
come up with their own test. Meaning if you're going
to apply to UH Stanford, we have our own specific
Stanford test we want you to take. You don't see
that happening to you. I think that's actually a remote possibility.
You have a lot of loyal alumni you know of
an institution who want to stay engaged and maybe this
(31:06):
sort of traditional interview used to be the way they
would engage. Maybe that they use the army of volunteers
in a different way. It's like, these students have applied
and we would like some more information from the student.
And also we've come up with a little one hour tests, Um,
would you mind hosting that, you know, in some kind
of like office venue for us? I do think that
(31:29):
is possible. So going back to the a point of
stress for the parents and that sort of academic hurdle
right there, So the how is the past bail gonna work? Right?
And then what about you know, the testing? What the
calluses are saying we can go test optional is because
we have other tools that can help us. Right, So
(31:50):
when what the colleges have is data they have for
every high school the kids that applied for as far
back as they want one year, two, three, four, five,
and they can kind of see the trends. But a
more important data piece for them is they can pull
a roster of say the last five to ten years,
(32:11):
and say, of the kids at high school X in
the city of Chicago who have come to my institution,
I have what their profile looked like when they applied,
and we obviously accepted them. They're here, and I have
how they have performed at my college. Right, So it's
how it's how high schools build reputations. Right If if
(32:33):
if say my school, I had five kids at college X,
and you know, on average they had a three point
five three point six unweighted g p A from my school,
but they were at the college and they have three eights,
you know, three five, three point nine. As it grew up,
you're going to set yourself as the original person. Wow,
the academic foundation that these kids have built at this
(32:57):
high school is really aligning well with our college curriculum.
They are a great match for us. They are outperformed.
We accepted them for many reasons, but they in the
most important thing, they are really really an x They
are in alignment with our curriculum. They are really hitting
a home run. That is how high schools build their reputation.
(33:17):
So I think the colleges are going to rely on
that kind of data piece. Where it might hurt is
I go to a most likely a public institution, and uh,
in the spring, I went past fail and I don't
have any testing, and it's a new high school where
(33:40):
there's new data, where there's no set like I think,
go back and look what's happened. So for for you know,
kids in that situation, I think, in to answer your question,
a college might identify that student as somebody they want
on campus because all the other factors are so compelling,
but they're not sure, so they might design kind of
special you know, exam that maybe even it's just sent
(34:04):
to the college counselor, and I have to sort of
procter that. Now, let me ask you this, Because of
COVID nineteen, a lot of schools are losing money, a
lot of colleges and universities are losing money. And how
do you foresee that translating into scholarships and financial aid.
Oh wow. Um. I think the well the well endowed
(34:25):
schools are still going to be able to deliver, because
that's just a priority. But I do think that there's
a lot of schools that are need aware to begin with.
Whole will now be even more need aware, and and
colleges might have to make a choice of I need
to enroll a class, you know, and and these families
(34:49):
want to come, and and in this year, you know,
they are a full pay family, and they're in the ballpark,
and based on all other factors, I probably want to
take more of them, but I also want to round
out the class. And I might see I might make
a strategic decision and say, I've only got I can
(35:09):
take five middle class kids and offer them ten thousand,
or I can offer one kid fifty, right, because that's
what they that's what they need to come. I think.
I think when you're in that bracket and you're trying
to fill a class, you're like, this is a year
(35:30):
where you know, my hands are tied. I have to offer,
you know, ten thousand to these five families because I
have maybe one or two or three of them will come.
I could offer fifty for this one kid, and I
don't even know if they'll come. So from the college side,
I think they are dealing with what we're dealing with,
uncertainty and if they can have a certainty, I know
(35:53):
you want to come UM, I know you can pay,
and you know you're not You're not to break the budget.
That leaves you money in the bank. For me, UM,
I think that community is going to do well and
the next I mean that that changes the whole diversity
of those upcoming college classes. You know what I mean?
(36:15):
That should be incredibly worrisome for us. Yeah, I mean
what has made college UM so attractive to kids is right, like,
if you just go to the website for any private,
relative selective school and you go to their admissions website,
one of the things you're you're you can click on
(36:36):
is like what is the profile of the incoming class?
And the colleges are so proud, right, you know, you
have the little map of the US and it's like
fifty kids from California and twenty from Minnesota, and like
right there showing you it's like we have all fifty
states represented. Ten to twelve percent of our kids are
coming from outside the US, from three D countries and
(36:57):
you know, or first in their family leads to go
to college, right like they're telling you it's like this,
you know, is what we have to offer. I think
that's gonna be harder. Having geographic balance might be something
that is sacrificed. But I do think as far as
things like diversity of voices and experiences are still going
(37:17):
to be valued. It's an institutional priority, you know, for
the colleges, and they will work very hard to have
that kind of balance in the class. I think it'll
change for some middle for some middle class kids. I
think for my parent community, I try and get them
to focus what they can control. I help them identify
(37:38):
you can't control, you can't control who's applying early decision,
like is this a good bet traditionally, but we don't
know what the fall is gonna look like. Everything is
a little bit of a risk. But you know, Mrs Jones,
here's what you can focus on. And what are you
telling Mrs Jones? What can we telling Mrs Jones. She's like, look, Martin,
you're so funny, ha ha ha. I've come to your
(37:59):
sopht Mark parent night, and then I went to your
junior parent night and Mrs j yeah, we're just you're
giving us appropriate doses of you know, like what we
should be thinking about. But now I'm here and I'm
a senior parent and I need you to tell me
what to do because I don't know what it is.
And I'm like, okay, I get it. I've told you
(38:21):
that this is a process where you have to allow
your child to step into the spotlight and you have
to kind of take a step back and that can
be hard. Number One, be a champion for your child.
Don't be a critic right there. Very sensitive right now,
So like, don't insist on reading the essay and being like,
you know, I really couldn't sleep. But in the second
paragraph you use the word galvanized, and I think this
(38:43):
word might be better. That's not helpful, so I think
it Just just support your child, chair them on and
just say you've got this. I have full confidence in
you if you need me off for help, but don't
insist on it. Um. I tell Mrs Jones that she
needs to say her relationship with her child evolving. She's
(39:03):
used to being the manager, but the kids are not
dealing well with directives right now. They're trying to be
a little more independent. So I told Mrs Jones, just
start thinking of yourself for as a consultant for your child,
not as the manager. So just speak. It's like, oh
what happened, it's cool today. Oh that happened. I had
a similar experience at your age. Here was here was
(39:24):
the scenario. Here's how I handled it, Here's how it
worked out. UM, good luck. If you need me, I'm
happy to share other things as opposed to you need
to do this because the relationship is changing. Even with me.
When I first start working with the kids, I give
them colleges and I give them things to do, and
they're like, well, you're the college council, so I'm just
gonna do what you say. But now when I give
(39:45):
the stuff, it's like, I'm going to take that under consideration.
Thank you for suggesting those three schools. I'm gonna do
my own research. I will get back to and tell
you how i feel. I'm like perfect that. What are
you telling parents? Um about virtual tours? A lot of
students weren't able to go see colleges this spring, and
so they're basically choosing off of uh, you know, some
(40:10):
made little film or some you know, visual utopia that
they're seeing online. That's not really visiting schools. It's not
visiting schools on personality. And you haven't you haven't gotten
to This would have been your summer, right, Yeah, I
was supposed to do that, you know, get a get
(40:31):
a rental car and just drive around and look at schools. Sure,
I mean there is a benefit to that, but truthfully,
it's like my kids are like, they have to make
a case. Why is the school going to be on
my list? Why is it not on the list? And
they have to kind of prove it to me, and
it's work and they're like, oh, Martin post COVID. It's
so much easier because I just go to you know,
(40:53):
Baits College, you know, admissions visit and they have an
open house and I click and I put my headphones on,
and you know, someone gives a live presentation, which leads
to a live tour, which then leads to a way
if you want more, you know, you can sit in
on a student panel. You can like all that research
(41:14):
you wanted me to do. I don't have to just
take notes from the virtual experiences. So the shopping part
is easier for the kids. So that might stick right.
I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna miss getting fried claims
at friendlyies and the whole ritual of driving with my daughter.
But you're making me feel better because I really thought
we were at such a disadvantage because we didn't actually,
you know, stomp our sneakers across the grounds. I think,
(41:38):
you know, when I worked on college admission, it's been
like two months traveling around the country rental cars, hotels,
all that the colleges are going to save a lot
of money, and so well parents, by the way, and
so well parents. So I think this is this is
this is a good thing because also there's so many
families that do not have the opportunity to colleges. Period.
(42:00):
I did not see my college, you know, I just
didn't have the resources for that. So I think that's
a good thing overall. It gives everybody access. What is
that criteria that you tell your students to consider when
narrowing down what colleges they want to apply to. I
kind of break it down for them into three components.
One is, you know, they should look at the history
(42:21):
and the philosophy of the school. Um, I always tell
them to do a Google map. What does it take
to get there? Is at one plane and a taxi
writer or is it two planes and a bus like
That's that will have an impact on them. Things like
size and locations, so just basic facts of the institution.
But the second part is more specific to the student.
(42:43):
What are your current academic and intellectual interests and how
will those interests be served at that institution? So that's
when they have to dig into, like the academic program
that the school has. Does it have a quar curriculum?
Does it not? Is it really unstructured? You know, how
is that going to affect you? Um, are your majors?
There are there special opportunities academically, So they're kind of like, oh,
(43:06):
I have to see my So you're telling me, Martin,
I have to see myself. How will I satisfy myself
academically at the school for four years? I'm like, right,
what were your four year academic plan look like? If
you go here, will it serve you well? Like? Great?
Got it? And then the third part it's a little
harder to do, but that's you know, what kind of
kids are you going to be surrounded by? That's that's
difficult to assess. But there are places to look for clues. Um,
(43:30):
you know, I tell the kids what are your current
you know, not you know, non scholastic interests, So like, well,
I like science, olympia, ad and robotics and you know Shakespeare.
I'm like, great, let's look at the full menu of
activities at that institution and try and find yourself in
these clubs. So when we pluck you out of your
lovely home and are our nice, warm, fuzzy school atmosphere
(43:55):
and pluck you down in small town Illinois, what resources
are there at that school where you're going to be
able to recreate your community of friends? Is there going
to be a soft landing? Um? And then also a
good other place to get information is in the student newspaper,
which tends to be you know, independent from the institution.
And I don't tell the kids they have to read
(44:17):
all that, but I'm like, what are the headlines, what
are the letters to the editor. There's a calendar of events.
You can kind of see what's happening, and you will
learn something about the community even though you're not physically there.
And then I tell them it's like, okay, like, based
on this minute back finding exercise, what is your impression
(44:37):
thumbs up, thumbs down. I don't know, give me more information.
That's sort of a first first review. Excellent And what
are you okay? So we've gone through the shopping now
application wise, what kind of advice do you have for parents?
How about? How about concerning the essay? I know you're
saying don't micromanage them, but should they change? Does this
(44:58):
subject change now that we're in a pandemic? I guess
all the big advice I have is like, maybe don't
write about COVID right, Um, you know, now we're in COVID,
and an instinct might be like I'm going to tell
the college like what happened to me, But it's happening
to all of us. And if the essay is supposed
to come from a unique place, um, that's not something
(45:20):
that's going to be unique. We all have, you know
that story. I mean, there's so many other things going
on in our world right now that it just might
not have the impact the impact. So I would say
we all had stories pre March, and maybe that good
advice would be to sort of dig into those stories
(45:41):
and those might reflect better on the kid. And then
just as far as parents, college councils, are well aware
of the voice, of the authenticity of a seventeen year
old voice apparent reading as it can cause more stress.
You know, I'm completely hands off for that reason. UM,
(46:01):
I want to ask you a question, Martin, because you know,
we've we've heard a lot of cautionary tales about social
media in terms of college acceptance. I have a very
naive question as a parent, which is do they when
they see let's say, instat stories of a lot of partying,
a lot of alcoholism, um or uh, sort of inappropriate
(46:25):
behavior socially, does that have an effect on their admissions? Oh? Yes,
because because if it's also like, right, you were overserved
at a party and somebody recorded you and you said
something inappropriate, um, that can easily be beheld against you.
(46:46):
And again from the college point of view, what do
you know? My parents asked, like, what is it? What
is it about activities and these recommendations. I'm like, well,
your child lives in your house. They live in your house.
But what you're asking, it's like, I want to come
live in your house for four years. You're going to
be the parents, right, You're going to come live in
(47:07):
my house for four years and guess what as the college,
I want well behaved children, So that's that's important. Yeah,
you have to remain a good citizen, not just of
your school, but beyond all. Right, now, I've gotten so
many great nuggets of wisdom for you. And as we
end this conversation, are there any more big headlines or
(47:28):
big bullet points of advice you can give to parents
in the application process? Yes? Um, right now, I'm just
gonna take your situation. Ali. You probably probably have an
extended family, and your partner probably has an extended family.
And because your daughter is going to be a senior,
everyone's going to want to be in their business. Oh,
(47:50):
you're applying to college. Where are you applying? Why are
you applying there? These are the schools I like, why
aren't you applying to that? For these kids, it can
be a very personal process. It's a very personal journey.
So I think it's important for parents to protect your
kid and help them pivot in those uncomfortable conversations during
the holidays, even if it's on zoom. Um, that's great information,
thank you so much. Just pivot to redirect the conversation.
(48:13):
But the parents can be very helpful, um, and redirecting
that conversation. Um, I think something very important to me
as a college counselor. It takes a lot of work
two get kids to ten to twelve schools to apply
to that are well rounded, that we are protecting them
(48:33):
and has a certain amount of reaches. If you can
imagine a pyramid, you know for schools three schools, two schools,
one school, one super reach, two good reaches, three probables
and four high probability schools. That's great, that kid is
being set up for mostly good news. That's a good thing.
But it is important for parents not to flip the
(48:56):
pyramid the other way, right, like it's like, oh, one
high problem, Like we're just we're we're real risk takers.
That's really hard. It's easy for the parents to want that.
It's hard for the kids emotionally too to look at
the selectivity of the group of schools on their listen
go wow, wow, this is this is you know, hazardous emotionally,
(49:17):
like I'm stressed. So it's important for the parents to
respect the well rounded list. And also it's a responsibility,
I think of the parents to celebrate all of the
schools on the list when they are identified. So even
if a parent doesn't know, you know, about a school.
It's their job to go get intelligence on that school
and talk about that school. You know what, darling, you
(49:40):
like that school. I found out a friend of mine,
you know, their daughter went there and she said great things,
and I went and I did the tour too, and like,
it looks really cool and I can see why you
like it. They have to talk about all the schools
because for the kids, that validates the school for them.
And I think, you know, self care, we talk a
lot about self are in this pandemic um. The families
(50:02):
who I think have handled uh COVID since March really
well are the families that turned self care into family care.
Waking up at the same time together and going on
on walks in their neighborhood and then coming back and
having breakfast together instead of dinner, right setting up the day.
And then you know, some families have taken language classes together,
(50:26):
you know, for an hour, it's like, oh, we're going
to do French together, We're gonna go guarden together, We're
going to build a shed together, and we'll see in
the opposite where there was unstructured situations and I would
be talking to some you know, kids at you know, noon,
and they were just waking up and I was like, well,
what happened? I was watching Netflix until you know, and
(50:49):
they just you know which, By the way, I think
that was okay at the beginning of quarantine, because I
think that a lot of kids needed to Everybody was scared,
there was a lot of stress. They needed to kind
of you know, go go inside a little bit. But
I agree with you that after a couple of weeks
of that, everybody had to kind of all right, you know,
(51:12):
how are we going to structure, like you said, how
we're going to structure our day, how we're going to
structure our life? And basically I'm I'm saying it's okay
to me because I let my kids do that for
a couple of weeks, you know, because I was kind
of doing the same thing. Yeah. I think one other
last anecdote, especially as you get closer to like the
kid has applied and they're going to hear is that,
(51:35):
um they feel like, oh what if I don't get in,
They're going to be so disappointed. You know. It's probably
a good idea for parents Huven starting now to start
sharing you know, times in their lives when things didn't
go their way. I didn't get into all my colleges
or I really wanted that job at this agency when
I got out of college, and I didn't get it,
and so I made a laft And you know, they
(51:58):
just they think it's been a smooth row for you, Martin. Oh, Martin,
I have so many stories my children. They know I
think I think it's helpful for them. Just absolutely that
it's gonna be okay and that things will happen. Martin Bonia,
thank you so much. This was so incredibly helpful pleasure, Ali.
Thank you for including me. Thank you to my guests,
(52:21):
Logan Powell and Martin Bonia, and thank you all for listening.
Be sure to subscribe, rate and leave a review, and
follow me in my undoctored posts on social media. I'm
on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth and on Instagram at
the Real Ali Wentworth. Go ask Ali is a production
of Shonda land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.
(52:41):
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