Meshell Ndegeocello/Don Was

Meshell Ndegeocello doesn’t fit neatly into any “jazz” label - or any label of any kind for that matter. She’s a phenomenal bass player, deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter of song, wonderful band leader and has had one bad ass career. It’s fitting that after a circuitous journey through the industry that started as one of the premiere artists on the Madonna helmed Maverick Records in the early 90s, that she’s now released two albums on Blue Note Records under Don Was.

The first was last year’s The Omnichord Real Book — a project with a fascinating origin we’ll be discussing on today’s episode. The latest is 2024’s No More Water: The Gospel of James Baldwin … a tribute to two of the great Black American writers and thinkers of the last century: James Baldwin and Audre Lorde.

That might sound heady but consider the source: Meshell is the product of a Washington DC upbringing … a city awash in culture like Go-Go Music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like her DC home, Meshell’s a great synthesizer of music and ideas.

Joining Meshell, Don Was and myself in our chat is Abe Rounds … an in-demand drummer and musician who’s been playing with Meshell since she picked him out of Berklee College of Music. And has also worked closely with Andrew Bird, Nick Hakim, Blake Mills and many more. In today’s episode he helps us gain some valuable insight into what it’s like to be a close collaborator of Meshell Ndgeocello’s.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Meshell Ndegeocello songs HERE.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin Pushkin. Michelle and Degiocello doesn't fit neatly into the
jazz label, or any label of any kind for that matter.

(00:36):
She's a phenomenal bass player, a deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter
of song, an incredible band leader, and has one badass career.
So even though she's not strictly jazz, it's fitting that
after a securitiest journey through the industry that started as
one of the premier artists on Madonna's Maverick Records in
the early nineties, she's now released two albums on Blue

(00:57):
Miot Records under the guidance of Don Was. The first
was last year's The Omnichord Real Book, a project with
a fascinating origin will be discussing on today's episode. The
latest is twenty twenty four's No More Water The Gospel
of James Baldwin, a tribute to two of the great
Black American writers and thinkers of the last century, James
Baldwin and Audrey Lord. That might sound heady, but consider

(01:21):
the source. Michelle is the product of a Washington d c.
Upbringing a city a wash in culture like go go
music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like
her DC home. Michelle's a great synthesizer of music and ideas.
Joining Michelle, don Was and myself on our chat as
a Browns, an inn demand drummer and musician who's been

(01:43):
playing with Michelle since she picked him out of Berkeley
College of Music. He's also worked closely with Andrew Byrd, Nicka, Keen,
Blake Mills, and many more. But in today's episode, he
helps us gain some valuable insight about what it's like
to be a close collaborator of Michelle and Degiocello. This
is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm

(02:05):
justin Mitchman. Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music
Studio one to twenty six in Culver City, California, with
Michelle and degio Cello and drummer Abe Browns. To see
the full video version of this episode, go to YouTube
dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. I mean, DC's very
on the surface, it looks like what it is, but

(02:25):
there's all kinds of things going on below the surface
in DC. I feel like or beneath the veneer on
the other on the flip side, you know, musically.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yes, yeah, yeah, it was a percussive element definitely made
his way. There's so much of that in go go music.
And when I went to Cuba it changed me because
it was it was the first time someone told me like,
stop counting and just play, just play, and if the

(02:52):
people aren't moving to the music, then you're not. You
haven't reached that place yet. We're not locked.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
How do you implement theory? That might be easy stop counting,
but how do you in practice?

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Listen?

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Listen? You know, just you just have to have complete
trust and listen. I'm not good at it yet, you know.
It's just it's a constant unfolding of when you start
to just trust yourself and you're just using your ears
and you're listening.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
I think you're awesome at it. Actually, I was just
watching a clip of you with Oliver Lake and Chris
Dave doctor Strange. Is that the song?

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (03:35):
And you're standing there playing one of the most syncopated
original sound and bass parts I ever heard in my life,
and no one is helping you hold those syncopations down.
Everyone's working playing polyrhythms against it, and you never lost that.

(03:56):
I was just like, how does she hold this groove
down with all this counterpoint going on?

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Around.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm the drummer's best friend.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah you are.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:09):
Probably comes from playing Go Go and just having to
hold it down so people can have a good time, right.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, I mean I grew up where if you you
veered off, I mean everything would literally stop, or you
just would someone would get hurt, someone would get hurt,
or you'd have to really endure intense criticism after I
mean painful jousting and dozens.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
That's that's the that's the environment you came up with.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yes, Go Go is a very masculine and intense.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
Music question. Yeah, Chuck Brown or Rare Essence? Who is
the originator?

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Just they're both so very different, and I think the
originator is a band called Eu actually or Trouble Funk
or Junkyard. There are mini bands that were before them
just didn't get any recogniz But there's a great deaf
jam record by Junkyard called Sardines and Pork and Beans.

(05:15):
To me, that is the foundational example of Go Go.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
When did Go Go become such a part of DC? Like,
was it always there as far as you were?

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, as far as I don't know. I'm I'm old
but not old enough to know where it stems from.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
You just always heard it growing up.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Always was the main music, the only music that made money.
Jazz gigs didn't make any money. I could play five
nights a week on go go gigs and make more
money than my dad. And he had society.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Gigs, oh man like like when you say society gigs.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Like like he played he was in the army, so
he played at the NCO Club. I would play at
the Capitol, you know, but the go go was the
driving force of DC eighties.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Where did your dad Your dad been a jazz musician
And did you feel and I imagine you learned. I
mean I read that your first real book came from
your father. Did you feel like you wanted to maybe
play more jazz or I mean like the fact that
you could make the money doing go go was that the.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
These are deep, long conversations. I think when you're young,
you're first starting to play, you just want to find
your community. It's funny I was asking a does he
feelly belongs to any sort of click or genre that's
coming up? And I think that when I was young,
I was like, this is the music that everyone's going
to see. I'm making a lot of friends, and that's

(06:45):
what drew me to it. It is like I got
to be with like minded people when we're trying to
get good at something. But I also liked hanging out
with my friend Federico, who loved Toto and Van Halen,
and so I was drawn to that too, and the
beauty about DC. In the seventies there wasn't genre based radio,

(07:06):
so I could hear Bad Brains and Parliament and you know,
Kim Carnes and Gladys Knight. I just never felt that
sort of separation. And so to say, was I into it?
I was just into anything that would get me playing
and meeting people who were trying to make things and

(07:29):
make live bands.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
You know, yeah, were you all? As a bass player?

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I played the clarinet for a while, but my brother
played the guitar and his friend left the bassover and
once I realized it allowed him and I to interact
and play together, I was like, this is when I
want to play.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Did you try playing guitar before that?

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Like, yeah, that didn't work for me? What about different energy?
I have more of a bass player energy. Guitar players
are very they have a confidence and a need to
be out front. Sorry, to make a generalization, I think
I'm more of a like I like to watch everything
and see what I can add that will be helpful.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's a confidence thoughing that too, like that that there
is a confidence in bass players that comes. I don't
know from an I'm not a bass player, but observing
bass players always intimidating to me in the sense that
they're always listening, they see everything.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Natural leader of the band.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's why they make good producers.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
I don't know about that. But we're the natural leader
of the band. We can turn around, we can walk,
we can tell the drummer he's slowing down. You can
throw up a hand to make a like it's coming.
You know, you're the one that can like get it happening.
You're the natural. You can walk up to the singer
and be like, we're at the first and you know,
you just have a natural vibe.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Get the guitar player back focused.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
And plus, yeah, you're all right, you're all right with
taking your hands off the instrument. Where a guitar player
a keyboard player, it's not.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
And you can play one bass that and change the
entire homony.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Everyone's a bass player in my band. Abe's father is
one of the greatest bass players in Sydney, Australia. Amazing
bass player. Chris Bruce is a bass player. Jevin Bruney,
who play with Pil Tears for Fears also bass player first.
So it's just a it's a bass player band.

Speaker 4 (09:28):
Sometimes someone else plays bass in your bands, Yeah, Kyle Miles,
And why do you not play?

Speaker 2 (09:38):
I come from the reason I think I have a
career is I made one catchy R and B song
and so I'm sort of I come from the R
and B and go go thing where I'm there to
interact with the audience and I have to make some
sort of connection to the audience, and I can't if

(10:00):
I'm when I'm playing the bass, I'm lost in that
and I don't have that connection.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Sometimes you do two basses, right, yeah, yeah, how do
you how do you break that down?

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah? We passed back and forth, try to. I think
the sound man creates a nice balance of us. And sometimes, yeah,
it's just hard to sing and play certain I write
certain basslines that are so contrapuntal to the vocal. But yeah,
it's also yeah, it's like it's not my shtick. I
really love to play the bass. And then take it seriously.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
So you're such a brilliant bass player, I appreciate you saying,
and gorgeous songwriter. How do you? How do you? How
do you balance the two? I mean I personally as
a as a failed musician, you know, I mean trying
to find the time to work on songwriting, to work
on you know, early on, I guess I mean now

(10:53):
you're you're in, you know, you're on your path, but
hopefully early on, I mean, I guess, when did songwriting
become a part of your life?

Speaker 5 (11:05):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (11:05):
My father he liked to go to pawn shops and
he would just by all kinds of equipment, and he
bought a roads and a little four track when I
was about thirteen. And once I realized you could multi
track and layer things, that was a big change. And

(11:25):
I was on a jazz gig and I flailed and
I realized I'm never going to be like a virtuoso,
but I really like making things. And I found Catharsis
in that. I think that's when I was like, I'm
going to be a songwriter. That's gonna be my be
my thing.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
That gave you a way to be involved in music
without being the yeah, VIRTUALO, So.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Then I felt you Yeah, it would never be.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
When you're writing a song, are you hearing the textures
that you're going to add to it?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, very much so Yeah, I'm very just do want
to sound. I'm very aware. I have an awareness to
the sonic feeling of a song more so than harmony
and construction. I really am trying to create an emotional

(12:25):
feeling with sonics. I'm very sensitive to mixes, like I
really feel like you can you can change the way
someone interacts with the song just by slight variations in
the mix. And I can't say where that comes from.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
I just.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
I'm a believer. I just think that's it's a gift
and a burden. But that's what I try to hone into.
I think how the song makes the person feel. I
can't tell them what to feel, but I want it
to sound in a way that they can take it
in a certain way.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
How do you how do you want to feel like.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Different all the time?

Speaker 1 (13:09):
You know?

Speaker 2 (13:10):
I I when I'm making music, Yeah, I just I
want to feel an array of emotions that that that
only I know. But when I put the music out there,
I just hope it sonically hits a place where you
can feel whatever you need to feel.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
So you try to get to a place where at
least you're feeling something and therefore, hopefully then yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
I sound like an asshole. No, I always feel something.
I mean, I just yeah, I love I I I
love music all kinds, all styles. Good. I don't believe
in good or bad. It's very opaque. There's certain things
you may enjoy listening to, other things you might not.

(13:55):
I take a critique like a compliment, and a compliment
like a critique, and that and that keeps me enjoying music.

Speaker 5 (14:04):
You know.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
That's a really great way to think about feedback. Yeah, yeah,
that's a really incredible way. Who if Go Go was
kind of the foundation of of of of you learning
to Uh well, actually, let me ask this too, because
you said that Go Go had a very masculine energy,
but at the same time, your bass player, and as

(14:25):
you said, bass player is really commanding the band. You're
kind of you're the leader, You're you're calling everything. Did
that How did that feel? Early on? As you're a
nascent bass player and you're in a very male dominated
or masculine genre, you're playing gigs in the genre that

(14:47):
feels very masculine as that energy.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Oh well, I can only give an example. I had
to play my don create this festival where you play
one of your records and its entirety, and so we
chose the first record to play, and I go back
and I look at videos and I am like a
raise jing asshole in my in my vibe in the

(15:12):
way I play, it's like on ten, you know. And
I know it's like a certain sort of style I have.
The It's it's just energetic frequency I think I got
from Go Go everything really tight, you know, like the
gus are pulsating tight and fast, like the temples are

(15:34):
like whoa. And and so when I sat when we
went to play it now, and it's just like I
just don't even have that energy. I just don't even
have that vibration wow anymore. And so I think it
was a I had to had a sense of preservation
in order to make it like I didn't want. The

(15:56):
thing I couldn't stand is you played good for you know,
being a woman. And I used to just crush me
and I just eventually was like, nah, I'm good, I'm
just gonna I'm just gonna play the best that's just
so good that you don't say anything and so command.
With such command, I want to hear nothing from you.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Thank god, that's over youth. Youth and collagen like really
make you aggressive human being?

Speaker 1 (16:31):
What do you do you? Where do you think that
energy went? If you don't have that vibration anymore?

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Oh, therapy and reconciling my traumas and a lot of weed.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
That'll help.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
I smoke a lot of weed so much.

Speaker 5 (16:50):
You know.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
I read this interview with Martin Scorsese wh he was
talking about when he first got it, first got out
of film school, he had all the stuff he wanted
to prove about what he could do, and then about
three or four films in, it's like, just just tell
a great story and tell it well. And I think

(17:12):
that's just part of maturity as an artist.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, I've read that by your last album with Maverick,
with that, with the label you initially signed to, that
you finally felt like you can make what you what
you heard? Oh yeah, what can you explain what that?
What that means? Oh?

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Because that's what got me the first record deal is
that you you have your whole life to make your
first record, right, and you're you're so confident in your
ideas and that's what got the people to notice you.
By the second and third people start telling you what's

(17:55):
gonna what could help you be successful, and you can
take it or leave it or can crush you. And
after making three records that no one was happy with,
it just snapped in me, like I have to remember,
like you know, this gift is not for me, you know,
I mean, it's I'm so blessed to have it, and

(18:17):
I need to continue to wait for the transmissions and
to be honest with the music because I rather fail
doing what I was honest about. Then I jumped through
all them hoops and made it different. And you still
don't like me, or you still don't like it, you know.
So all you have is your is just the feeling

(18:41):
that I did my best. That's all I have. And
what Don said is, eventually you know I'm not doing it.
I eventually you realize you're not doing it for the collapse,
and the people that really come to see you are
looking for a hint of sincerity, just a little bit,

(19:02):
because they pay I realize I pay money to go
outside of myself for a good ninety minutes and watch
someone do what they love. And so that's what I
started to focus on.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
M I want to talk about those transmissions. Have you
discovered a way to encourage them?

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I just I was I was fretting this interview
for because I knew something would come up like that.
I just I feel a hint of shame sometimes, but
I pray. You know, I'm a believer, and the moments
I have to myself are just and when I can

(20:00):
hear my own thoughts, like I got rid of the phone,
like I have like a type of flip phone, and
I just I just try to create a space for
myself to listen, and I really find that that helps creativity.
And also I stop sometimes I just stop for months

(20:21):
and don't do anything. You know, everything's so rapid. I'm
old enough to remember when people made a record every
three to four years. You know, it was only eight.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Songs, right, not seventy seven.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
And so I just think, I know that's a reference,
yeah that record.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Both have American rec rooms now, by the way, too.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I love my virgo, my a
virgo friend. Yeah. You just I don't know, I you
just how do you do it? You tell me? It's like,
how do you wait for you and you aid people
in bringing, you know, things to fruition? How do you

(21:11):
keep yourself buoyant? How do you stay interested in music
where you're seen as someone not only are you planting
the seeds, you're tilling the land, and you're also out
there selling the product? Like, how do you maintain yeah, buoyancy?

Speaker 4 (21:32):
I draw inspiration from artists like you for real. You know,
we've never really talked about it because we mostly limit
ourselves to kind of almost musical small talk. And that's
because I don't know how to approach you about what

(21:52):
the essence of what you do because it's it's beyond.
I can't describe it, and I don't know how to
verbalize it. But I've been we've been doing. I do
the same thing you do, produce records and play bass.
But I don't know how you do what you do.
Can't And it's not like it's happened once or twice.

(22:14):
Every one of your records is just magnificent. You know
how I feel about your records? You ever seen the
pictures of a universe shot by the Hubble space telescope? Yes,
I do follow this and you and you look at
it and you get wait a minute, that little dot
is a galaxy like the Milky Way, and we're looking
at it one hundred million years ago because it's so

(22:36):
far away and the colors are making That's how I
feel about your records. I don't know how what you're
plugged into, but I know I can't get there. But
I've worked for a couple, just a couple other artists,
you know. I think Wayne Shorter was one of those people.
I think Bob Dylan is one of those people.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
We love Bob Dylan.

Speaker 4 (23:02):
Your sonic vision and what you're able to convey through
sound is us the equivalent of what he can do,
you know, with words, And I don't know how you
do it. It's just mind blown.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
I appreciate you saying that. I will carry that with
me today and when I have my losses, I will
think of that. Take that out. Yeah. I just yeah,
I'm just I have really good friends now too. I
mean that helps a lot. And we listen to a
lot of music, Like we just try to what are

(23:40):
you listening to? And you DJ the dressing room tonight
and just you know, just try to listen and I
tell I've been having some students, which is really put
you in a strange position because I'm not dogmatic, but
the only thing I tell them, if you don't like
yourself and like to spend time with yourself, you're not

(24:00):
going to get to that creative space that you dream
and hope for. You have to really like to sit
with yourself and explore the instrument or where the tools
you're using you have to spend you have to relate
to them like and master them, like painting or any
other medium of art.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, that's a really great that's a really great point.
Then alone time required to sit there and just go
run something down hours at a time, you know, day
in and day out, day after day.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
It requires a lot of a long time. It's hard
to stomach sometimes. Yes, we'll be right back with more
from Michelle and de yo Cello and a Browns. After
the break, we're back with more from Michelle and deg
yo Cello and a Browns.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
How's it? I mean, Abe's your drummer and your band
my friend, your friend is my friend. It feels like you.
It feels like you have like a like an actual
like I know. The records are Michell's records. But it
feels almost like you're creating within a band, you know.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
How's it? How's it been playing with Abe?

Speaker 2 (25:08):
And oh it's great. I had a low after playing
with Chris Dave. I didn't think I'd ever have that
sort of feeling with a drummer that I felt. I
felt like we were somehow like vulcan mind meld with

(25:31):
rhythmic experiences. But I was doing a like a setting
in at Berkeley, doing a little workshop and I met Abe.
He's one of three drummers, and I could just tell.
I was just like, you don't really need to be here,
and I'm going to figure that out. And it's funny

(25:55):
the instructor, he was not the one she that that
instructor felt strongly about. And I was just like, I know.
And so him and I would play during that whole time,
and I was just like, I'm calling it, I'm calling
you for a gig, and I called him, and since

(26:15):
that day, it's just I'm just like I'm growing. He
teaches me so much in terms of rhythm and harmony,
such an accomplished musician, and taught me so much as
a person. Chris too, who I met at during Bitter,
which was a very hard time, a record people didn't like.
But he introduced me to t Rex and all these

(26:38):
other amazing bands. I would have not come in contact
with Jebn Brune, I mean, just a genius programmer and player.
I just feel like I've met people where I feel
like we're growing. We're not in a time like sometimes
you have a band in that band is a time

(27:01):
you know you did this together and you're going to
keep doing that the same way for the rest of
your life. Right, and we and this is the first
time I'm like, are you gonna play the keyboard on this?
I don't know, Maybe I'll play. Let's get some vibes happening.
You know, everyone's open to change and growth, and we
respect each other's individuality. And we've been through a lot together,

(27:28):
both joyful and not so joyful. So there's a goodness,
a good bond, that.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Level of freedom, your your experience with with with with
you guys now where it's like who's playing, who's playing? Well?

Speaker 3 (27:40):
How does that?

Speaker 1 (27:40):
How does that? How does that play out? Like when
you're when you're writing, like do you are you? What
do you? Does that has it impacted the way you write.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Oh yeah, like Omnichord is a very special record because
I had so much time off. You know, COVID was
a life changing experience for me. I actually, I have
a house in the woods, and I got to be
in that house for long periods of time and just
be with myself. And so I had some different instruments
to work with, and we were working a lot on score,

(28:10):
the four of us, the core group, We did like
several TV shows and we made Yeah, we just made
a lot of music together in a very compressed experience.
So it changed the writing in the sense of like
I have an idea, send it back, do this, do that,
And I really wanted to get out of that, and

(28:32):
so I collected a bunch of songs. But we went
into the studio together to complete the writing. Like we
knew that together things would It was just germination and
then we'd all come together and things would come just
start to sprout and grow.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Can you describe that a little more in depth? Like
you come in with a rough idea in a session
and just we just set up and start playing, and
you pull out the good ideas and you keep refining it.
How does that work.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Well.

Speaker 5 (29:03):
First, I'll say I think that your demos are well
on their own, like they're they're amazing, that they kind
of it's all there somehow. And then you have you
have a great ability of letting go and then trusting
the people in the room to take your shell of
an idea and make it their own. And I think
that's the kind of the process. It's never really talked

(29:23):
about like hey, I think it should be that you
should play this drum beat or you should play these
particular chords.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
It's just more like the feeling.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
It's like, let's try and tap into that feeling and
how you would, you know, your your own version of that, Yeah,
through your body?

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, is that what you're listening for them when you
get demos?

Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yeah, totally for sure.

Speaker 5 (29:47):
It's just like what is the for instance, if it's
like I'm trying to recreate a beat or something, I'm
never Yeah, we're not trying to recreate out. We were
just trying to like tap into the feeling of what
the beat does or if it if the rhythm of
it or maybe the lack of rhythm in it. So
it's just like trying to you know, and like we're
also a band, and like they can be conversations about

(30:10):
where's the one, but that usually get to that if
we get to that place, that's if we're trying to
like quantify where it is. Usually that's not a good thing.
So it's just like if you hear it there, that's fine. Also,
if you get to know me, this is a facade.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I don't really talk a lot, and I'm like, not,
we're never all going to get together, Like let's talk
about where the music goes. I'm going for that tone
and you know, not that person. I'll just I have
to trust the musician or I get a music, I'm
getting a part that someone's trying to do something, and

(30:51):
I'd rather you be inspired by the part to do something,
not do my part, because that's how it feels as
being the so called leader, and I think that's kind
of limiting to the song and the Omnichoor Real book
was my hope, like when my father gave me that
book on that first gig, was to create things that

(31:13):
musicians like to play, like their foundational understandings of harmony
and a rhythm and a time. But you have to
add something to it, you know, to make it feel
good for us. And that's how I approached the last record,
you know, just like here's some ideas, but you know,
A broke some songs and then and we just all

(31:35):
sort of come together and create.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
You know, it feels communal.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
It's communal community and a lot of ruthless editing.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Show as a master editor.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Ruthless. I'm a ruthless editor.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
Do you actually sit behind it? Push people away and
behind the computer.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
I make people leave so I can sit and listen
because the talking while you're listening you can't. I can't
deal with, Like, if we're gonna listen to the track back,
we're gonna listen, and I try not to listen, which
I've just I just worked on a project that's really
serious jazz, and I really struggle when we come back

(32:15):
to the listening and they only listen to their part
and they don't listen as a whole. You can't tell
me what the bass player play. You're just listening to yourself.
And it becomes my topic. And so that's my only
other thing. Like when we listen, we're going to listen,
and you can tell because we know each other. When

(32:36):
we'll go like let's do it again, we just immediately
go back and do it again, or we go like
take a break, just step away from it and just
let it sit for a minute instead of finding a problem.
Because sometimes I'm learning too after time. I mean, are
you really nitpicking? Or can you trust yourself now? After

(32:59):
you've after thirty years of making records? At what point
do you go like, that's a good take. And luckily
I have this a younger person who's like he'll just
tell you like, no, I'm not that's great, I'm good.
I'm not doing it again, you know Chris too. I
have people around me like no, that's good. Stop wow, wow,

(33:22):
And I'm like, you're right, Like did on that jazz.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Project you were talking about, Yeah, did you get over
that hump of everyone just listening to their Well.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
I just observe the energy I just had. Now I
would never have. I just observe. I watched them and
I listen, and then I have to figure out how
to or communicate something that perhaps they could do differently,
you know. But I'm learning. It's a different time now

(33:53):
from the conversation. We were having this conversation about like
legacy and like you have to learn from the past
and you study a certain thing to get good at it.
But I'm encountering a lot of youth who are very studied,
and I just wonder. I'm now asking the question, how
do I get you to let go of perfectionism or

(34:17):
some idea of how something should be so you can
flail and within that find something else. And that's my
only dogma. I remember doing sessions with Shaka Khan, and
I used to just be enamored with my friend David Gamson,
and she would sing like ten lemons, I mean, twenty

(34:37):
fifty lemons, incredible lemons too, like preserved lemons, just and
then she now and then then then she'd be then
she'd be like I feel it, I feel something in
that one, and then she'd got to build. But there's
never this like yeah, she's just like you know sometimes

(34:59):
you know, it's.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Fun, unbothered by it.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
I'm unbothered by I don't care who's listening. Yeah, like, yeah,
I'm not afraid who's listening. I can just I might
make like That's how I'm gonna find where I want
to be.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
If you're producing an artist as opposed to being the artist,
how does it change your approach to the.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Studio depends on what kind of music. It depends on
what kind of music. When it's like a production where
it's like we're programming, it's like we're writing vocal part,
you know, like a just a certain sort of pop
R and B thing, it's really a detailed interaction. Yeah, minutia,

(35:46):
I gotta get to a lot of just getting to
getting the person comfortable. But I'm dying to do more
sessions where like, let's make a record in three days,
we're just gonna play live. We're gonna have one day
of rehearsal, we're gonna play it. You're gonna trust yourself.
And I find a lot of people aren't really up
for that. Nope, But I just try to be. And

(36:11):
I guess it's my age and coming to understand myself
as a two spirit person. I think there's part of
me that understands competition, the need for self expression as
a musician, and that wanting to soar, And then the
other part of me understands, like, you are giving of yourself.

(36:35):
How can I make this a good experience for you? Sorry?
Makes me cry, Like how can I help you make
something and feel really good about it? And I'm glad
I'm learning to balance those two natures. One that's like
I hear you, man, let's let's hit beast mode, right, yeah,

(36:59):
like you're here with your brothers and sisters and you
listen hit beast mode. But then there's the part of
me that there has to be someone there who's like,
how you feeling Okay? You know you need to take
a break, You need to walk away from that, Just
walk away from that. Yeah, let's try and let's try
another color.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm not there to tear you down, which I come
from the eighties and nineties where the kind of the
producer was there to poke the bear. You know, there's
this idea that this should be like a like a
tussle a little bit. And I don't think I want
to be that. I want to be the mixture of
Rudy Van Gelder, Craig Street, Brian Enoa, I read from

(37:46):
Man and Mary Oliver, you know, and and also not
be afraid of the dark, like like there's a writer
I love named Sheila Hetty, and just try to get
to you in a way where you're just not saying
like singing and dancing, you're I need I want you

(38:08):
to have an experience at the music.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
After this last break, we'll be back with the rest
of our conversation with Michelle and degio Cello and a Browns.
Here's the rest of our conversation. I mean, maybe we
can talk about some of those people, what those people
mean to you. Rudy Van Gelder is a name that
doesn't get.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Talked about Sonic and the Blade. He's Sonic in the
Blade ultimately ruthless editor Craig Street creates an environment for
you where you can do your best. You know, Don
was people person, wright studio, sonic genius, arrangement enhancer. That's

(38:50):
what I've found out a couple of things about you know,
there's that because that's a part of production I feel
is lost, the arrangement aspect. You can have a great melody,
great head, kill it, but who's gonna help you put
that in a put the steak on a nice plate
instead of the trash can lid. It's a great steak still, right,

(39:12):
But how you serve it to me is gonna That's
gonna affect me. There's like, there's just so many styles
of production too. Yeah, he's producing in this period of
time as a young person. I think it means different things.
It means I made the whole track for you and
you sing on.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
It, and I think it's good.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Budgets too, I had we had budgets to go where we.

Speaker 5 (39:34):
Could small, small budgets. In these days, everyone can make
something that sounds great in a room by themselves.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
But I don't envy him because I also grew up
with deadlines. I made music when there's like you mix
that in two days. That's done. I got to take
the tape off and turn the dobs back and zero
the board so I can do the next mix. There's
no going back, because going back costs a whole mix.
I feel like there's so many like takes. You don't

(40:03):
have to Yes, you can piece me together. I don't
have to be able to play through the whole track.
That's a difference, and I think that affects how things feel.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
Are you too young to have worked with analog tape?

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Oh? Yeah, I totally know how to cut tape. I
went to engineering school with Bob yespec. He mixed sailing.
Christopher Crust one of my favorite. But yeah, I'm a luddite.
I'm not keeping up. I'm really one of those people
like I missed the time it takes for the tape

(40:35):
to rewind, so you're just not listening to each section.
I love, like, go to Bar forty and you're just
on forty to forty three. Go to Bar ten and
we'll stay there, and I'm just like, there's no song
to me anymore. I'm like, I've lost all contacts. He'll
tell you, I'll be just like, I'll come back when
y'all are done, just like I have no idea what's
going on. You know, I don't who listens that way.

(40:59):
And I'm one of those people. I want to make
songs for the people who are in their prius and
they trying to get to work or get to the
charger before anyone else, and they just want to happen
good time, and it sounds good. It feels good, you know.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
The new record feels really good, really really good. I
appreciate that it's a lot of you. I text and
abe like a couple of nights. Gods, Like, there's so much.
There's so many different singers too, on the record, like
you and Jade Hicks, who I don't know who Jaye
Hicks is. That sounds incredible to guests.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Guess you should know who Jay Nicks is. Yeah. They
are a family of singers, Justin Hicks, Jade Hicks and
Canetia Miller, the Slates. Yeah, and they're from Indiana. They
are preachers children and but that's the other thing. Sorry

(41:50):
if I'm long winded. I was given so many great
opportunities by other musicians, and I really feel the omni
chord is all is that for me. I think they
are some of the greatest songwriters and singers. There's Tandese
mess Why it's from South African, who I think is
a genius. I just produced something that's coming out with

(42:12):
her soon. I mean, yeah, I just want to share
all that I've been able to experience as a musician,
travel and playing for people. And that's what all the
vocalists means for me, Like no one does anything alone.
And also I'm not a dinosaur. I can see the

(42:36):
meteor coming and as I watch other musicians age and change,
because I'm fifty six and there's no way I'm trying
to be up there singing and dancing for the rest
of my life. And I just want to be a
good springboard for other people to do their craft and
do their thing and it's a blessing. I learned so much.

(42:58):
There's an amazing song I think is I think it's
one it's on the Dylan level lyrically, which is Gatsby,
which is written by some more Pender Hues, and like
hearing that song, it just it's that feeling you have
when you're like God, it's saying everything I wish I
could say. And I hadn't had that feeling since hearing
Prince when I was sixteen and I heard that song

(43:21):
and I was like, you know, and that's my way.
I think he's a genius and I want more people
to be exposed to him. And then it shows the arrangement,
talents and gifts of Corey Henry who plays on Who Takes,
because if you listen to both version, that's what I'm hoping,
like here where he took the harmony, you know, has

(43:41):
Joel Ross where I'm like virtuostic. But I really loved
setting him into a more African diaspora with the butriimba,
the vibes on a few of the tunes where it's
not like people are listening for his blazing it's just like,
look how he rhythmically is fitting here and his song

(44:03):
writing improvisation. You know, I just wanted to be like
people do a lot of things Josh john Johnson. Yeah,
just if I may talk about him. I was here
in LA to score for a TV show and I
lived here months at a time, months like and I
would go to the ETA to see Josh club in.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Holland Park be unfortunately not around anymore.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
But rest in peace, I know, right, that's really sad.
I know that that was my suoker, that was my like.
I would just go there and I know I would
hear something interesting and I heard him play. And then
that one day I was watching TV and he was
the keyboard player for Bridges Beyond Bridges and there was

(44:52):
just all these things coming on. It was so musical,
and I wanted a producer because also eventually you need
someone to help you. I'm lucky I have real friends
with like, let's get some help. And I wanted someone
who we all respected and loved and who knew us.
And Josh Johnson said yes. And that was like a

(45:14):
game changer because he brought something none of us had,
and he wasn't attached to us and attached to me
being something.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
What was it that he brought.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Openness, clarity, virtuosity, and harmony and melodic sonic textures that
I probably wouldn't have got to on the sacks. He
allowed me to bring Oliver Lakes. Oliver can compose. He
can't play anymore because of Parkinson's, and I felt Josh
had a similar spirit in essence of heart. But also

(45:52):
he could take the charts and bring them to life.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
So that's that's Josh playing with Oliver composed. Yes, I
didn't realize that.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yeah, but also no attachment to us being anything, you know,
which we've experienced.

Speaker 5 (46:09):
Think we we we behaved better amongst ourselves in the studio,
having his fifth band member. Essentially he would play with
us sometimes but I'll just just listen to the controller
and we we would. We were trying our best because
you know, we tour a lot, we're all together a lot,
so there's band dynamics which exist, and like it was
great to have somebody there. It just made it all

(46:30):
feel like just a bit more relaxed. And you're Billy
Presston he was, Yeah, he was in some way Preston
So yeah, he was at Fifth Beatle.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
Yeah, you recorded with Billy Pressure right, Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
On the second round.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
A few cuts.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, yeah, he's oh god, just touch it you just
your neck, Bob. I can't explain, it's nothing like it.
You're just like, oh my god, what was.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
It like being around it?

Speaker 2 (46:58):
You really want to go there?

Speaker 5 (46:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (46:59):
I want to go there.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Well, David, I had a son at the time, and
David Gamson told me not to bring my son to
the session, to be honest, and he was just someone
who lived in my mind on a record, so I
didn't really go with any expectations. I just went to play.
But he was another one, very little talking, very little talking,

(47:23):
and we put up the and he would just play.
He'd be like, you liked that one, and David would
be like, yeah, do you know you got another one
in yet? And he would do another one and be
different and fantastic, and then just to the point where
Dave was like, let me not abuse this man's kindness.
But it was just like watching a master. I was

(47:45):
very young then and not so adept that I should
have went and talked to him, but I just had
others around me who were like, let's leave him alone
at that period of time in his life, you know.
But I mean, it's amazing to have. It's Billy Preston,
not so much for the Beatles, but for me, you know,
that's Nat King Cole's. You know. It was like seeing

(48:08):
someone my parents loved. It was like adoration and also
just reverie.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
He was the original B three guy, you know, but
it wasn't in It was in church, yes, and.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
He was.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
He played with a little Richard. You know, they didn't
have B three and they didn't have rock and roll before.
And I always thought what he did with the drawbars,
he painted like you paint. He created sonic worlds that
were very emotional by playing with the drawbars, which is

(48:49):
getting to be kind of a lost art.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, you got it, you come, you gotta come. You
gotta hear this cat named Jake Sherman though he's the truth.
But yeah, the bus the organ for me is like
I call it the chocolate spaceship. It just uh it is.
It just can take you somewhere. And that's the thing
I did notice. It was not only was he like
rhythmically just I hit that word funky, but he was

(49:15):
just the first ever in life.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
He has the most unique pocket inane.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
But you're right, he could create. He it was like
he was playing a synth and if you listen, he
plays on who is he and it's like it's chucking,
But then you hear these other colors that he's just
doing in between the verses, and it's him like padding
with the bars. That session had Paul Riser, and I

(49:41):
remember just being enamored by him, to be honest, that's
what I Meeting him was like a dream. He he
did the arrangement to Rocket Love and we found him
like he was unhoused and in Detroit, in Detroit, and

(50:02):
we flew him in and it was really hard because
this was before you know, just getting him the play
ain't ticket getting him on the plane, and he finally
got there and he literally came with nothing, like just
his body, and we were like, do you have any charts?

Speaker 3 (50:19):
He's like, right here, take me to Kinks. Take me.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
He used to write stuff, you know, in a taxicab
on the way to the sessions, fright.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Which is frightening because you have old session waiting for
the guy rocket Love.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
And then.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
That's that's what took over the Billy President session.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
I never listened to the strings and not really.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
On house with nothing. Okay, that's that's the who. That's
to me, that's the that Motown world must have been rough.
I can't imagine what.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Made you go, what made you get want to get him?
For that record, Papa was rolling stone.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Those strings and Tammy stuff. Yeah, he's quint essential to
your listening experience, and no one knows it's him.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
He did never too much. He did that Lucid Andros,
he did never too much.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Those strings are ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
That's the whole normal Wifield stuff. He did all the
Marvin and Tammy, which is just.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
All encyclopedia right there, and.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
All in his head.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Take many Kinko's, take.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
That, and the sweetest guy.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
He just wanted to go, like like I want to
go eat. I remember that to me and DA were
like you want to eat? What do you want to eat?
He was, That's what I want and we're like, let's
take it. Eat whatever you want to do.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
You know, he wrote, but what becomes a broken heart?

Speaker 1 (52:05):
He did? Yeah, Oh I didn't know me?

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Wow?

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Wow, which is real deep those voicings.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah, just just like that is yeah, amazing, amazing hindsight. Yeah,
it all comes back to me. I just remember being
completely enchanted by him.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
You got on those first couple of records too, you
got you You have to have a play with Benny
Moppin and Bill Summers too.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah and again and why do I want? You know?
Headtimes life changing as the bass player, the reason I
played flat wounds? Yeah, yeah, I remember here. I was
just like, okay, give it the flat wound game. That's
when you changed the flat immediately.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
I was just thinking. I was thinking about how you
referenced a couple of times that Bitter no one like
you kept you keep. I feel like you said a
couple of times no maybe, but no one liked Bitter.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
That's the best selling one though.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Now we're right.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
So what I mean when when when I handed in.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
And so, did that color your perception of the album?
The label's reaction? Uh?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah it was, Yes, it did. Yeah. I started the
record with David Gampson, who had did the first two
and they and we went in for a meeting and
they didn't like it, and they fired him right there
in front of me.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
What did they not like? Do you remember?

Speaker 2 (53:37):
They told me I should make black music. Okay, to
be honest, if you want to be honest, was it?

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Was it? A black guy?

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Was the head? Of the label said that and along
with two other and our people, you.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Should black did no reference to what black would.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
I didn't have the wherewithal to come back with any
Woody repartee at that time. I'm kind of like, yeah,
I wasn't really I just was crushed. I think I am.
I'm like literal spice, you know. I just was like
I just couldn't compute. And at that time, I look

(54:21):
at It's funny you asked me that question about was
I sober Bidder is completely Sober Records. It was the
moment like I wanted to change my life. I moved
from an urban situation to la I was like, you
have palm trees. I'd rather struggle here by the beach
and like change. Like it was like I felt I

(54:43):
was at the best I was in my life on
that record. And then I handed it in and they
were just like, no, absolutely not. And so I had
a little bit of the budget left and I called
my dear friend Craig Street. He produced Norah Jones, Sondra Wilson,

(55:07):
just a life changing person my life. I met him
when I was like twenty. He was plastering walls and
he heard my demo and got me some work. But
I called him and that's where I met Chris Bruce
and Doyle bram Hall. Wendy Melvowe plays on that record,
Abe Laboreal Junior. Just yeah. So the record here as

(55:33):
Bitter Now is like I was feeling great and told
completely clear my mind and you do all that and
we did it for did it in five days. It's
a five day record, you know, five day record. Because
that's the thing about Craig too, why I want to
bring that back. Working with him in some great experiences

(55:55):
making records, and they're done in a with a deadline,
with a certain amount of time. And the bidder was
one of those like this is what we got, We're done,
it's done, go mix it.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
So you worked on it first with David Gamson and
then Craig Stree. How much of the stuff with Gamson
is still on It's still on the record that we.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Hear nothing Nothing. The only song I knew I wanted
to do with David because I really liked singing with
David was fool of Me.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
That's a great song beyond the record labels, you know,
rebuke of it, which you know, whatever, did it? Did
it feel How did that feel putting that out there?
I mean that almost feels like almost it feels like
the the the musical equivalent of like putting an autobiography
out of almost like wow, I'm really this is.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
I mean, where's the artists? Are self absorbed? I wasn't
thinking about that at that time, Like this is what
I feel. You're in your own cathartic self absorption. I
don't really, I didn't really think about any of that.
It was just I had to go tour record with
no support. That's that's all I was like, I have
a record that no one and they kind of shelved
it and that was cool. And that shows you the

(57:07):
beauty of the pollination of film, TV and music. Someone
used it in a film and then that changed the
whole trajectory of the record. You know, I learned a
lot from that experience. It made me want to go
and hide, But at the same time, that's the moment
I had to realize that's where you click in and go.

(57:29):
They're not important, They're They're just a patron. I don't
feel this about you. See that's funny. This is why
this relationship is so different being on Blue Note now
because I am older and more present in myself. I
see that we're working together to bring something fruition. I
was at it. That was at a time on Maverick

(57:50):
where you're just the tax write off. Are the artists?
I needed you to make hits, you know, And so
when they didn't like it, I just kind of moved
on in my mind of like I've got I met
Wendy melvow And and Lisa, you know, Coleman. I'm good. I
played with Abe Laborel and we made loops together. I'm good.
I met Doyle Bramhall, who is like you meet Doyle.

(58:14):
He came to that session with with Wendy. They were
working on his record, and that is like yeah. I
was like, I'm good I met him. And I only
say this because they always remind me I met him.
I was like, if I played like you, I wouldn't
need nobody, no girlfriend, no nothing, if I'd just be
with myself listening to myself, just like look at me,

(58:35):
go I'm amazingment Oh no, he is like amazing. I
just would be like, I don't need you. And Doyle
I want to he just he is. He is. He's
floating around the world. It'll come together soon. Yeah, okay,
okay's floating.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Did you did you meet you knew Prince before Lisa
and Wendy?

Speaker 5 (59:00):
No?

Speaker 2 (59:01):
No, uh.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
I was.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
I had a choice to sign from signed to his
label or Madonna's label, or Warner Brothers Paisley Park, Warners
by Maverick, and I was working with Benny Medina and
Peter Warner. Yeah, they were the people that brought me there.
And Peter and Benny were like, do not go to
the Prince label, you know, they were nice about yeah,

(59:28):
And I was like really, I was just like because
that was gonna be my I was like, I'm going there,
and they were like, nah, I don't go there.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Go here.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
It's the You'll be the second artist they signed. You'll
get a lot of just it's all under Warners. Just
go here. And I was like okay, And so I
chose that. But I talked him on the phone. But
him and I never really had good interactions. I can't
say why, but I've you know, I loved him. He's
like a great inspiration. I think him and I would

(59:57):
have had a much better relationship outside of cameras and
sort of things like that. I think he had a
lot of expectations, and I'm a pretty regular person. I
am really easy going, and there's a lot of energy
and stuff around him at that time, and so I
just sort of knew I should pull back and he

(01:00:19):
could be. He could be harsh if you did something
he felt you shouldn't do. Yeah, you went to the
studio with him, and studio with him, you did a
couple of times in Minnesota in New York.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Yeah, Like what did you guys work? Was it for
you or for him?

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
For him?

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Yeah, But it's it's a lot, it's a it's a
lot of it's it's uh, how do I say this.
I met Wendy and Lisa before I met him, and
they told me, maintain yourself. Don't drink the kool aid,

(01:01:04):
just to be honest. That's what they said verbatim. And
I had to and I could see how you like,
it's mesmerizing to point you lose yourself, And I just refused.
I don't. I didn't want that in my life at
that time. Just just the aura, the aura, the demand,
the view, plus I worked. I mean, yeah, he just

(01:01:28):
could be. He could be difficult and opinionated in a way.
Because I try not to.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
I never want to speak ill of those who are
not here to speak for themselves. But it was complicated.
I wish I could. I can't imagine what it was
like to be him. I really cannot unfathomable, you know,
not just the gift, but just being someone where like
you had to stare at him. It was the most

(01:01:54):
captivating person.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
You know. Do you remember first encountering his music?

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Oh exactly, I know exactly where I was. I was twelve,
and I was at a party my parents were at
and they were all upset, was playing cards or something,
and it was the four U record and I played
it and I never heard anything like that in my life.
And it's the moment I said, I'm going to be
a musician. And that's what That's what he means to me.

(01:02:20):
That's the moment I was like, I'm going to be
a musician. Wow, that's what I want to do.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
What drew you to it? The photo? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Yeah, the photo and going by the afro and he's
sitting on the back naked on a horse. Oh my god,
you're twelve, you know your home, it's nothing like it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Just putting myself in your situation, if at that time
I had heard Prince was interested in signing, they would
have I would have been there would have been nothing stopping,
Like there's nothing stopping, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Sheena Easton. He wrote, you know he put out music
and he wouldn't let the person be. Yes, there were
you know, like having your own label you have to do.
You want to make there's a brand to consider, But
at that time he was the brand, and I think
I want to make something different. And to be honest,
I'm gonna say it, I think I was just a

(01:03:08):
little to urban for him. I'm a little I have
a little more edge less, a little less Hollywood. I'm not.
I'm not the lights don't fool me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah, being labeled to Madonna's car, I guess there's a
little different.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
It's a little different, different vibrations, different parties to different parties.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
I'd like to have seen both. Well, do you remember
like going to one of your first party were just like,
you know, a Madonna.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
One of my first parties was the book party with
the sex book. Yeah, okay, yeah, a different different thing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Came there, Yes, all of him? Wow, that's wow.

Speaker 5 (01:04:07):
Didn't you go into the like you went on like
just to meet her at the library or something you
invited at the library.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
I realized you can't come to the library, girl. Yeah,
the met met. I was like, let's go to the
met And then I was like oh, and then all
these people came. I was like, this is not I
just warned. Yeah, she agreed to Yeah, she's like great
and and then yeah yeah, and I was like, that's

(01:04:34):
I don't that's not happening. But that's the prince thing too,
just like we can't go hang out never. It's never
going to be like I can cook for you and
make it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
It's just you're larger than life.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
I didn't realize until we were going to do this
that you your contribution to Bedtime Story that was supposed
to be Tupac that sposed to be yeah, rest in peace. Yeah.
Did you know that at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Yeah, we all knew that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
At the time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
I was like, we have a problem, you know, like
record needs to be done because it was very close
to that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Mm hm did you meet did you meet podcast? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Yes, several times.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Such a kind man in my experience of him.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
And he spent the time in Baltimore too, So I
guess you would understand that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
You remember the last time we were it was a
Ben Harper show. We ran ran to each other, Ben Harper,
Ben Harper.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
What a time to be alive, Man Harper.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Yeah. I met Rick James. That's a big one for me.
Rick James and Elder Barge came to one of my shows,
and I do brag about that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
To get they came together.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Together together and they hung out together the whole night,
and they were on ten and they came in the
dressing room and sung for us at the piano. It
was incredible. They said, just was jamming out. I do
brag about that one. They came. They came to your
show and sang my show and then hung on address

(01:06:09):
and saying they were they was feeling it. They were
very alive together. Yeah, that's good. That's a highlight for me.
And Larry Graham. Larry Graham and Marcus Miller stood on
the side of the stage while I put that was
that's that's hard.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
What would you know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
I was still young and college full of college, and
I was just like, I'm gonna play the hell out
of the base.

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
So it inspired you rather than I would.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Intimidate, who's your favorite bass player.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
Probably James Jamison, Willie Dixon.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
I just.

Speaker 4 (01:06:48):
You know Ron Carter too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
You know how's your right?

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
You blew my mind. I was telling him that we
were on the phone maybe a year ago, and I
was telling her I took a lesson from Ron Carter
and he showed me things about releasing the notes, and
I asked her how she did it, but she misunderstood.
But I was saying it, and she on me when
she did it, which she said, Oh, I released it
like in rhythm with the high hat. You releasing the

(01:07:17):
note is as important to the groove as attacking the note.
And that just never crossed my mind before Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Went back, told the go go thing too, you got
to make all that space.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
Well it opened. I worked on that like I was
on tour when I talked to her, and that's all
I thought about for the rest of the tour. It
just and it changed. It wasn't long enough to internalize
it fully, but it changed the way I approached it.
And when you change that and you changed the next
note you choose, so it it set the tour alight.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
It was fantastic that, like six months I rode that wave.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
What is your relationship with America. I guess. You know.
You grew up in the capital, the nation's capital. Your
dad was a military man, joined the military. Yeah, I
took the as fab test. I was hoping to get
into the Air Force, but I only scored high enough
to get in the Army. I don't know if they
tell people that, like, yeah, I just I just thought

(01:08:25):
there was no future. The way I grew up, it
was really hard, and not being educated, I thought that
would be the path for me. But could you imagine
me with.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
A gun exactly being angry? Can you imagine the energy
I have on that first record and I have got Yeah,
I'd be a different person, you know, But my father
was in the military, and that military changed my life.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Did you watch your.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
Uh yeah, yes, yeah, everyone did that. I'm I'm born
in August twenty ninth, nineteen sixty eight. Okay, I am
as old as civil rights is. And when I was
growing up, you know, my mother was like, you need

(01:09:20):
to get a post office job, or you need to
figure out to go to community college or join the military.
Those were your options. Like that's what was expected of me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
My mother has a fourth grade education and my father
only graduated high school, so you know that their dream
for me was just to find something solid. So of course, yeah,
I mean, my relationship with America is I am the
offspring of an obsolete machine. You can't legislate kindness, You

(01:09:54):
can't make a law that's going to make you treat
me differently from you know, by the color of my skin.
But I can't imagine what it was like for them
to grow up way before me and have the experiences
they had, raise children and try to be a healthy
human being. I was angry at my parents, angry at
my upbringing, and I have to realize that we're all

(01:10:17):
all Americans are subject to living somewhere where it's sort
of a revisionist history. I have to realize I can't.
I can't think about my like, you know, freedom loving,
you know fathers who made the Constitution. That's not my story.

(01:10:38):
So I no longer connect to it, you know, as
an American, I feel like it's complicated and we need
a lot more nuanced conversations. But I know in my
heart of hearts that we all no matter your race,
your gender, whatever. All these these these like generalizations you
want to get under little flags that at the bottom

(01:11:00):
of it, You're just a human being trying to make
the best of this unexplainable experience. And so I just
want to cause less infusion, cause less problems. And whenever
you can encounter people and share this message of love
without sounding hokey, that's what I try to do. You know,

(01:11:20):
no one has any answers. I no longer. I don't
believe in power anymore. I think I was raised to
think like, woh, you need to gain power, and I
have no interest in power anymore. I'm really into like, yeah,
what kind of exchange can we have? Like I want
to Grammy this year and people ask me about it,

(01:11:43):
and I had the deepest depression after it, you know.
And then you know, I had to start just configuring
in my journal, like come on, see the positive things
of it, you know, And I realized the most positive
thing for me, if you don't mind, was I went
with Abe. And you know, when you win the Grammy,

(01:12:04):
they usher you through the back like take a picture,
do won't drop the Grammy down? You take another one,
take another picture, go to the press, blah blah blah.
And then the press thing, you know, something kind of
messed up happened. Someone mistakes me. They were like, what's
it like playing with David Bowie because I look like
Gail and Dorsey or you know, just limited in their scope.
But that then I was like, I let it. I

(01:12:25):
just say pew, I said, let's talk about race. Actually
to the reporter, shut down all interviews. And then that's
when I realized, like, this is not my thing, you know,
I want to I'm always going to focus on the music.
But the other highlight was we're in the lounge with
all the people who won, and this man comes over

(01:12:45):
and just starts what I call talking at me. When
you just talk at me, you don't want We're not talking,
You're just at me. He's talking and talking, and I
could feel Abe's energy change, like just Abes is like
oh my god, the flower, but his whole energy change
like you don't remember me? And I was like, what's

(01:13:06):
happening to the guy? He said to the guy, you
don't and I was like, whoa. So I just stepped
back a little bit and he was like, you were
my teacher.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Teacher, my drum teacher at college.

Speaker 5 (01:13:19):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
They did not recognize me at all.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
And wasn't nice to him, wasn't trying to recognize you, probably, but.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
It wasn't nice to him. What did he tell you
when you were in class school?

Speaker 5 (01:13:32):
Yeah, he said that your right hand dominant, so you'll
never ever get cold to play on a record.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
A teacher. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
So then that again another moment of like, this is
why I'm here because this is hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
Yeah, we had a good Yeah, we were just like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
But look, he's his right hand, it's killing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Real dominant.

Speaker 4 (01:14:02):
You actually get to say that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
No, I just felt in my heart I wanted him.
I could see these were two men and they need
to have that interaction. And but that I was like,
this is why I'm here, This is why I want.
This moment is why I want, don't you know? It's
my own like low self esteem that I deserve. It
is it real? What's it mean? You know, you go

(01:14:25):
through it and then you have a moment where it's like, ah,
nothing to do with you, None of this has anything
to do with you. You know, it's these moments that are important.
It's it's it's the it's all the people that help
make the record that will help hopefully have other experiences

(01:14:46):
come from that record. Everyone has something they believe in.
But if we're going to make this country, this experiment work,
the best I can do is cause less less fire.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
Yeah, less fire. Thanks Michelle, and I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
I appreciate and I much success to you. It's such
an honor to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
This is an honored actual. Thanks so much Michelle and
de gio Cello and a Browns for talking about their
close collaboration together and their two new projects out on
Blue Note Records. You can hear those albums and a
playlist of some of our favorite tracks from Michelle and
Abe on a playlist at broken Record podcast dot com

(01:15:32):
or in our episode description. You can also watch this
interview on other recent episodes at YouTube dot com slash
broken Record podcast, and be sure to follow us on
Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us
on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and
edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler
and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinay. Broken Record

(01:15:55):
is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this
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(01:16:16):
us on your podcast app. Our theme Music's back, any beats?
I'm justin Richmond,