October 23, 2024 • 53 mins
We've all faced those biting comments about our looks or how we act, and we often let those words affect us, even though they shouldn’t.
Lucinda Price, AKA Froomes, grew up convinced that to fit in with the 'right' crowd, she had to be hot. Back then, certain traits were seen as the ultimate beauty standard, leading her to believe she had to change parts of herself to be accepted.
In this episode, Froomes—who’s an author, comedian, broadcaster, and internet personality—sits down with Clare to chat about the unrealistic beauty standards we’ve all faced and how they’ve affected her and so many other women. This episode isn’t just about happiness, it’s also about self-acceptance and navigating the challenges that come with it.
So, after working to overcome so much and be comfortable in her own skin, is Froomes happy? Let’s find out.
THE END BITS
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You can find out more about Froome’s book All I Ever Wanted Was To Be Hot here.
- The Butterfly Foundation is a great support service for anyone who struggles with disordered eating or body image issues. You can find more information here.
GET IN TOUCH:
Send us a voice message or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au to share your feedback about the show or to suggest a guest.
CREDITS:
Host: Clare Stephens
Guest: Lucinda 'Froomes' Price
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Audio Producer: Scott Stronach
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Support the show: https://www.mamamia.com.au/mplus/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And I know from being around people in my life
when I've been well who were in the position that
I was then it is hard to be around someone
with an eating disorder because they are so wrapped up
in their head they don't have time to consider your
feelings a lot of the time in my experience.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hello and welcome Tivdai. You're Happy, the podcast that asks
the questions you've always wanted to know from the people
who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens and
today's guest is Lucinda Price, also known as Rooms. She's
an author and a comedian and a broadcaster and an
Internet personality, and you might know her from being Really
(01:06):
Bloody Funny on Instagram. She's performed at some of Australia's
largest live events and stages. She's written for TV, she's
got a cult following, and she's just released her debut book,
All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot, which is
essentially about the body image problem that every woman who
(01:29):
has grown up in Australia in the last thirty years
has been subjected to, and it's essentially about that soup
that we swim in when it comes to Western beauty
standards and the damage it does and for her the
journey of breaking out of it. Froom's is particularly fascinating
(01:52):
talking about the absurdity of the beauty standards that we
grew up with and how everyone wanted to be a
Victoria's Secret Angel. Everyone wanted to look the same way,
and if you were out of those boundaries, you felt
like there was something wrong with you and that you
needed to desperately change something about yourself. I was really
(02:18):
looking forward to having this conversation because before I started
in media, I was doing a Masters of research in psychology,
specifically looking at public health messaging around obesity and eating
disorders and how they entirely conflict. And it looked at
the overlap between obesity and eating disorders and the insidiousness
(02:42):
of fat phobia and the way it's damaging not only
for a person's mental health but also for the goal
of physical health. So many women have had their lives
and their joy stolen from them because of the noise
around eating, shape and weight, and it's a conversation I've
(03:04):
wanted to have on this podcast for so long, and
I knew that Frooms would be the person to have
that conversation with. I started by asking her about her childhood.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh, I love that you just get straight into it.
That's great, I would say, yeah, for sure. I was
actually thinking on the way here, my sister and I
are like everything to our parents, and there's nothing that
they wouldn't do for either of us, Like their life
revolves around us really, and not in like a coddled way,
but rather like I could sit in my hands and
(03:43):
clap and my mum would be like, oh my god,
that's iconic, so I could do it again. So I've
definitely been enabled. But yeah, I would say any kind
of like unhappiness that I felt was just purely in
my own head, because I feel as though I've really
had a pretty good trot in terms of things that
have been given to me and stuff like that. But
definitely from a young age, I think I had a
(04:04):
few demons in my brain.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You have talked a bit about experience depression. When was
your first experience with it?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
So my first experience with it was probably, funnily enough,
what I feel kicked it off. In my memory was
when I went to a party when I was fifteen
and I greened out. Yeah, so we're passing it around
and I'll never forget. I don't know if this is
like if I'm allowed to talk about this, but I
was like fifteen, so that's fine. We were passing around.
They made this joint that was like a cross and
(04:40):
it was someone's parents. Weit it literally looked like that. Anyway.
I took a puff and like I really inhaled it
like twice, and then straight away I was like, I've
made a massive mistake. And it always happens, and you're
like in a circle of people. Yeah, And I looked
across me. I was looking at someone and behind them
was this red cartoon going like this, like this, like this.
(05:00):
And then we went inside and we watched my favorite
ever movie, Austin Powers, and it was like I was
watching it and eternity dragged on, but it it'd only
been a second. Like I was wigging out. I went
to the bathroom and I vomited and I vomited up
blood and I was like I'm dying. But then my
friend was like, no, it's strawberries. Like I had strawberries
earlier that day.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I had that once when I got really drunk and
I was like vomiting blood and they're like, you've exclusively drank.
What do you use that? Like vodka?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Raspberry raspberry?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah? I was like, it's Vodara, but I'm still drunk.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I'm still drunk and it's probably bloody in my head.
So that actually really rocked me, and thus I don't
touch anything like that anymore because it rack. I remember
feeling so bad that I was like, I'm never going
to do this again. And I often talk about how
I get migraines as a kid, and I'd be like
praying to whatever imaginary god that I believed in, be
like please, I'll eat vegetables and fruit if you just
make it stop. Make it stop. So my whole thing
(05:50):
was like I never want to feel that again. I
think it tipped me over into like I don't know
if it's called derealization or depersonalization or whatever, but it's
like nothing felt real. It was like I was in
a glass box for a few months, and it was
that feeling of like I've done this, I can't rectify this,
Like I'm going to be stuck in this forever. But
before that point, I had bad anxiety and OCD since
(06:12):
I was really young, so I was used to kind
of feeling that real sinking feeling of like I'm stuck,
I'm stuck, I'm stuck. But it just added like a
little bit of like flair to it, where I was
seeing a glass box now feeling it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I have heard a lot of women talk about that
experience with weed. I don't enjoy it, and I don't
even know why I don't enjoy it, but it's probably
a similar thing. I just don't like how I feel,
And I'm a bit the same with like doing anything
that I'm then like, I don't want to not feel
in my body. You're writing your book about how your
(06:48):
dad has bipolar Were you conscious of trying things like
weed and thinking that it might be more risky for
you because of that predisposition.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Literally one hundred percent. And I've got friends who have
parents who have schizophrenia or bipolar one. So my dad
does bipolar one. And why I always put one on
the end is because there are two types of bipolar
one bipolar two. And I'm really passionate about I feel
like that word gets like thrown around so much like
they're bipolar. I'm like, it's such a complicated, interesting experience
(07:19):
people who have it. But that's kind of a side note. Yeah, definitely.
And I grew up like dad self medicated, like did
all kinds of stuff, and I just I didn't want
to have that. I knew like the reality of it.
So I think I don't think mental health was like
discussed in my family in the way that it is now.
It was just a kind of reality that my dad
has bipolar one and he's kind of crazy, and it's
(07:41):
we call him, and I've said this, we call him center,
like he's the center of our family. And it actually
has ended up being quite fun, Like I look back
quite fondly now, even at the things that necessarily weren't.
It's a serious mental illness, Like there's things that aren't
fun about it. But yeah, I don't know if it's
like nostalgia. Yeah yeah, but because that's like a relatively
(08:03):
serious mental illness, any kind of experience that I had
didn't feel as scary. Yeah, but it didn't also related
in a lot of ways. But I think later on
in life, when I was medicated and really kind of
like trying to work through it. Then I would kind
of draw parallels.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
You had OCD when you were really really young. What
did you used to do? Like how did that manifest?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh? My god, so it started when I sing you
think kindergarten. I'm smiling even though it's like so shit,
And I just remember, like I couldn't wear socks, like
Mum would have to put on and off my socks
again and again and again, and she just thought that
I didn't like the way they felt, and I thought
that that was the same. But I realized it would
be because I was like going into this new environment
and I didn't feel in control. But it really flared
(08:52):
up and became a serious problem when I was in
year seven. Again. Change it happens, and it still comes
up to me whenever something's changing.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And it's weird. Often you can't tell in the moment,
you don't have the self awareness. In the moment, you're like,
but everything's fine and normal, that hasn't been anything, And
then you look back on it and you're like, yeah, year.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Seven, Yeah, Yeah, isn't that weird how it works like that? Yeah,
it's like that's the real hardest part of it. I
feel is this unawareness even if you feel like you're
a self aware person. But oh my god, it was
so bad in year seven. I just I felt like
I didn't fit in and I couldn't like find my
bearings at this new school. And so I would be
(09:30):
so hyper vigilant about everything that I did and every
way that I behaved, and I became obsessed with thinking
that I was offending people. So like i'd brush past
someone on the bus and like my bag would hit
their blazer, and for the whole day, like that'd be
in the morning, For the whole day, I'd be thinking
about it again and then ruminating, being like I did
this thing. Oh my god, am I a bad person?
Then I'd catch the bus home and Mum tells me, now,
(09:51):
she's like, it'd be like you were busting to use
the toilet. You'd sit in the car and then have
to wait, wait till we get home. Walk into my
room with my mum. She'd sit on my bed, and
again and again and again, I'd have to say, I
brush past Sarah on the bus today, Does that mean
I'm rude? Mean or offensive? Does that mean I'm rude?
Mean or offensive? And I'd say again, and again, I'd
say it fifty times. And this is why I also
(10:13):
think it's so important to like championing the people that
are around people with mental illness, because like the patience
that my mum showed in sitting with me, she had
to say no in the perfect cadence. If I glinted
in her eye that maybe she didn't mean it, we'd
start the pattern again and this would go on for
like an hour, sometimes after school, and she didn't really
(10:34):
know what to do, like what do you do? So
I didn't get therapy or anything for it, because and
I speak about this in my book, it did eventually
go away, like it comes in episodes. It's not like
this constant thing like I feel fine right now, but
it kind of all went away when I died in
my hair blonde. And that's hence all ever wanted was
to be hot. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
You released your debut book in September, and I have
read it twice. It's a bit of a memoir, a
bit of a manifesto, and in one of the early
chapters you tell a story about something that you chose
to do, and that chapter ends with you seeing the
results of that and writing it was one of the
happiest moments of my life. That thing was a Nodes
(11:15):
job and you were seventeen. Can you tell me exactly
what that moment was like? And I've just realized you
like to call it rhinoplasty. We did not use the
casual lands plastic surgery rhinoplasty. Can you tell me exactly
what that moment was like?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Of course? And can I just say you reading my
book so early on and giving me the most amazing endorsement,
like made me feel so comfortable and excited about this
book because it's so scary when you write something like this.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
It's so thank you, so oh, it's so brilliant. As
soon as I saw the title, I was like, oh,
I have all the time in love with I'd thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Oh yeah, I can tell you exactly how it felt.
It was summer, and I'd wanted this thing since I
was eleven, and I thought about it so much, but
in kind of like a good way, Like I was
just so excited for when it was going to happen.
I think it could have turned out looking any sort
of way, and I would have been happy just for
having that agency to change it. It just felt like
it was akin to the feeling of like the life
(12:10):
day of school or getting my license. It was around
that time where all of those things were happening, so
it really kind of like divorced me from a girl
into a woman. Britney spears vibes and yeah, I just
remember thinking, Okay, now I'm comfortable. Now I feel like myself.
People speak about this, so I've spoken to There can
be like a dysphoria or a dysmorphia, I don't know,
(12:31):
like you don't feel yourself until you fix something. And
I think that's where plastic surgery can be really helpful.
And I think sometimes those stories aren't told enough because
you either hear the like really happy success stories or
the disasters where for a lot of people it kind
of is this like quiet, grounding, peaceful experience when you
fix something that you don't.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Like, even if it's like a messy path of why
you didn't like it in the first place. Would you
write in the book about certain comments that you got
or just certain moments where this insecurity kind of emerge
and you're able to at once see that like it's
sad and unfair that you felt that way, but the
truth is you did feel that way. And once you
(13:13):
saw the results, you were stoked. Yeah, and that's that's okay,
Like you genuinely felt happiness in that moment, and we
kind of shot on women a little bit for that.
Was it something that once you had it, because obviously,
like your friends would have known you had a partner
at the time, who knew? Did you feel comfortable telling people?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
No? No, No, it was just like people in my
immediate circle. But even until writing this book, like, I
was so scared talking about it because it is an
insecurity of mine, the fact that my nose looks different,
Like I don't like sharing old photos of myself because
I don't like giving people permission to shit on this
little girl who felt self conscious. And yes, it's changed,
but I'm still that person. The part of my nose
(13:57):
is just in a bin somewhere. But no, it took
me so long to even consider talking about this with
people that I don't know, because yeah, like I said,
there's still that like insecure part of me. You know,
I'm so worried people and think, oh, she must be
so naturally fuggly, Like I don't like giving people permission
to like Bar's judgment, even though of course they are,
(14:19):
but surprisingly writing about it and putting it out there,
like no one seems very scandalized by it, and that's
quite powerful for me, you know, it's kind of freeing.
It's like, oh cool, I think one day I'll be
able to share photos of myself and it doesn't matter
what you think, because and it's true, Like I look
back at photos of myself now, and being honest about
it has also changed the way that I see my
(14:40):
old self. I see, oh, she wasn't even that bad,
Like I think it really was very much in my
head and that's why I'm glad I got it. But yeah,
definitely there's still a bit of feeling like I don't
want to give people ammunition to judge me.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
It must be a little bit like exposure therapy, because
if it's something so scary and something that you were
certain was going to go a certain way once you
share this truth and it hasn't, that must be especially
for somebody who is predisposed to being anxious, that must
be quite comforting. You write candidly in the book about
(15:15):
wanting to be pretty unpopular, and you say you infiltrated
the popular group just by going blonder. As someone who
was never in the popular group. What does it feel
like to me in that group?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh my god. That was another thing that I was
really scared about writing about because it's like, I feel
like I got my wish, Yeah, and I'm like I
can see. I mean, I don't know, because I never
didn't have it like I did have it for like
a year and a half. I've felt so like a floater,
like I didn't have friends, and it really affected me.
So I think I don't know what it would have
(15:46):
been like if I just stayed like that forever. I
think I would kind of be a different person, to
be honest. Oh my god, it felt good.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Is it competitive? Like when everyone you talk about like
the cheerleader effect and the fact that like everyone's hot
and then everybody seems hot because you're all hot together.
What does that power feel like? And especially being able
to compare it with when you didn't have that social capital.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah. Well, it's kind of not dissimilar to work now,
Like it's a popularity contest what we do in a
lot of ways. So it kind of probably primed me
for that. For me, I don't think it changed you
I was as a person, but I think it made
me a better person actually, because it meant that I
felt like I could. I've felt a lot of agency,
and I think I'm my best self when I feel
(16:33):
a bit more in control. And I felt accepted even
though it was this thing that, yeah, it is kind
of complicated because there's like haves and have nots, right,
but yeah, I definitely still knew that it was conditional,
so I definitely had to work towards it with the
blonde hair and looking a certain way and behaving a
certain way in front of boys. But I think I
(16:54):
was still myself in a lot of ways. It's like
survivors guilt because I'm like, I know what it was
like to really feel like I didn't fit in.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Do you feel like fitting in being hot, being blonde?
That having that safety net gave you per to be
who you were, like I think you say in the book,
like to be a weirdo, to be crazy, funny and
out there and follow whatever instincts you had. Do you
(17:23):
think because you had the safety net of hotness, but
you could do that.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
One hundred percent? Because I remember when I didn't. When
I was in year seven and we had this like
drama class and I did this whole performance, and I
remember at the end of it, I like slid across
the floor in my tights and everyone was like whoa
because it was kind of like good, like it was
kind of like a really good move, and I was
like whoa. But again, I felt like a freak. Everyone
thought I was like this weird girl running around the school.
(17:50):
I think as well. When I'm anxious, I blink a lot,
so i'd kind of bounce around the school like blinking
and like kind of being really oh hey, like kind
of dorky because I hadn't really come into being a
proper teenager yet. And people used to say to me,
like I remember in drama class, one guy was like,
I thought you were hot, but then I got to
know you, so was that kind of vibe, which is.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Actually kind of and you're kind of like that's what
I want. Yeah, I feel like that kind of And
it's weird in that sometimes it's like, did you only
get to know me because I was hot? Like did
somebody only bother to get to know your funniness because
you'd lued them in fully?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Fully? Catfish?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah, well yeah I didn't even take it. I
took it as a compliment because I'm like, I'm glad
that you are seeing me for who I am, which
is like this exactly how I present, I guess and
the things that I find funny. So yeah, definitely gave
me permission. And I feel like sometimes as young girls,
we need something to give us permission. And that's what
it was. For better or worse.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
After the break, Froom shares her experience in what was
supposed to be a dream media role but instead left
her feeling increasingly dissatisfied with her appearance. A moment that
sticks out to me as a time the world told
(19:15):
you you'd be happy and you weren't, or when you
thought you'd be happy and you weren't, was when you
got your job at Pedestrian. Can you tell me about
the role and what it involved.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, of course. So yeah, I got a job a
Pedestrian as a health and fitness editor when I was twenty.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Got an editor at twenty, I know, how what the hell?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
That's why I was like, yes, like I'm killing it.
So I really was happy when I got that job. Yeah,
I was like obviously felt a lot of pressure because
I felt like, oh, I've really got to make this work.
Like I wanted to work there so bad, but it
was so out of the realm of possibility in my mind. Yeah,
it involved me like going on runs, trying smoothies, writing
about health and fitness, and at that point I'd never
(19:56):
gone on a diet. I thought diets were ridiculous. Again,
that was kind of a privilege, to be honest, because
I'd never been teased for my weight. Yeah, so I
kind of had the privilege of not knowing what it
was like to have to worry about that. So I
think in a way it helped my writing because I
came from a very layman's approach. But what I find
funny looking back is it eventually writing about health and
(20:18):
fitness every day all day really actually started to affect me.
And I think it's a really good tale of the
fact that like, what you consume can consume you, and
what you consume even if you think that you're above her,
even if you think intellectually that you can outthink it.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Or you're doing it ironically or whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yes, the ironically thing is a big one, especially if
you pride yourself on being someone who's self aware. I
think it can get you even more so. Yeah, the
role involved trying different things, changing my appearance for a story,
doing stuff like that, which again I was twenty. I
thought it was amazing. I was like, I get to
do all this stuff for free. Before that as well,
I'd worked at Lululemon, and part of that was going
(20:58):
and doing exercise classes for free. So I always was
enabled to do these things that I thought were really
positive for me, the context of that being actually a
bit strange when I look back.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
What's fascinating about your story is this fact that the physical,
and especially when it comes to eating disorders, the physical
and the mental feed into each other. So a lot
of people, basically you don't really develop an eating disorder
unless you diet. That's how the psychopathology starts, because it's
(21:35):
your brain becoming so hungry that then like it stuffs
up all the signals and the whole relationship between your
brain and your body. And so you get this job
and you're doing diets or smoothies or thinking obsessively about
health just because that's what you have to do. You
tell a story about a friend coming to visit you
(21:58):
in Sydney and you felt weird after he left, and
then he said, I just don't know if we can
be friends, because that whole time was really weird. What
do you think you were behaving like? In that time?
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I remember very clearly everything pissed me off. I found
everyone annoying, being around people for extended periods of time,
extended periods of time, being like one whole day in
one whole night, like you'd piss me off. I thought
I was better than people, to be honest, I thought
I was smarter. I thought everyone wishes they had my
will power. You know. I was really up my own ass.
(22:35):
But I think I had to be because I was
putting everything into it. So I felt entitled to feel
all of those things, because if I didn't feel all
those things, what was I doing it for. I think
the way it manifested in a social way was everything
having to be my way. I decide when we go out,
I decide what we eat, I decide when we go home.
I don't have time for small talk. Yeah. What I
(22:59):
remember from it was just being really stringent and having
absolutely no spontaneity. And I know how wild that is
now because I'm really spontaneous now. If you call me up,
I'll come do whatever with you or on the weekend,
or like I'm happy to just sit in bed all
day on the weekend if it means we're going to
have a fun time a friend and I together. And
I know from being around people in my life when
(23:21):
I've been well who were in the position that I was,
then it is hard to be around someone with a
neat disorder because they are so wrapped up in their
head they don't have time to consider your feelings a
lot of the time in my experience, but that was
a wake up call in a lot of ways. It
was embarrassing, Like I walked away from that conversation that
I had with him feeling so embarrassed because I didn't realize.
(23:43):
I hate the idea that I made someone feel uncomfortable.
I don't think anyone would liked that idea, to be fair,
but it did make me feel really small and really
really bad. But it still took me a few more
years to think that the problem was that I was
hungry and not that I was depressed.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Was your initial reaction to that to blame that person
and think like, uh, you just don't get me. Maybe
we're not meant to be friends anymore, or did you
kind of see some of the truth in it at
the time.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I think, judging on the fact that I remember being embarrassed,
I think I definitely saw truth in it because we've
been friends since we were like fourteen, him and I.
His name's Ben.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Were you able to repair the friendship?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah? Yeah, oh yeah, Like he was one of my
best friends in high school, like drama kids together, and
now like he came to my launcherit I did in
Melbourne and like wrote this beautiful thing for me, being like,
I'm so proud of the woman you've become. Like he's
really he's really like earnest and other stuff, which I like,
he is very in touch with his emotions. So yeah,
and that kind of makes a friendship like that stronger.
Like he's someone who would just say it how it is,
(24:44):
and I probably needed that in a lot of ways
from someone like him.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I think the way that you describe the reality of
having an eating disorder is so vivid. And I studied
psychology and about ten years ago I worked in a
residential treatment facility with people with eating disorders in the US.
I was only there for such a short time, but
it has stuck with me like nothing else because I
(25:11):
just could not believe how rigid and scary this mental
illness was. I remember we were doing like art therapy
and one girl woman. It's weird, I say, girl, but
like quite important, especially with eating disorders where it can
be quite paternalistic.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Woman.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
She was a young woman, but she was just crying
and crying and saying, I don't know what I meant
to do because I feel so disgusting and I'm putting
on weight and I'm eating this food and I feel
so disgusting in my body. I can't recover because I
can't live like this. And I was like, oh my god,
(25:49):
what are you meant to do? What can you remember
that it felt like to be in the throes of that.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yes, it feels like that. It feels like you've got
two options. I can, yeah, gain weight, which isn't an option,
but okay, we're going to say it's an option. Or
I can die, you know, which also isn't an option.
And that's why I think you can get really stuck
when you're at your lowest. I think there's different degrees
with the eating disorder as well. There was times where
I was definitely still clinically. I hit all the markers
(26:19):
for having an eating disorder, but it didn't feel as severe.
And then there were times where it was really like
I don't know what to do and I'm stuck, like
you said that woman, really rigid and really stuck.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
And I think sometimes it's actually during the recovery process
that you're like, oh, I can't live like this because
I don't know how to live in this body. And
that's when it all hits you. Because eating disorders have
the highest mortality rate out of any mental illness. And
I think that's why this book in your story is
so important, because it's telling that truth about how trapped
(26:53):
you feel and you Originally they kind of diagnosed it
as depression. And do you think that was because you
were just so low?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I don't know. I think, to be honest, that misfire
from a psychiatrist was because of my family history of
mental illness. It's convenient. She was a kind of doctor
that diagnosed me with a disorder. That was her whole
job was to look for signs of that. She didn't
know what I was like before, I said on the questionnaire.
When she was talking to me, I definitely said that
I was dieting, which should have set off red flags
(27:24):
to be honest, but I think it's important, yeah, to
address the fact that eating disorders do have the highest
mortality rate. And it's not because someone's dying of being
really skinny and they're mal nourished. It's because they're taking
their own lives, and it's not discussed enough. It is,
I feel because of that feeling of being stuck. I
know you've discussed experiencing mental illness, and it's that feeling
(27:46):
where it's I'm stuck. I've got two options, and if
you're someone who's really impulsive, then yeah, you got two options.
And I think it's important. It's so funny. I doled
out that statistic on my Instagram a couple months ago
and someone said, oh, yeah, I know they're pretty bad,
but I wouldn't say they're the most lethal.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
As though it's like a subjective, I personally wouldn't say,
it's okay, do you like the data?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
What the hell give me the tea? What's going on here?
And I think that was just indicative of the way
that we look and the way that we think. I
think we think that women are dramatic because yes, people assume, oh,
eating disorders are a thing for young women, and they're
being dramatic and they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that.
It's not about that, it's something they can snap out of.
People aren't talking about that with suppression.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I think because it does disproportionately affect young women,
people do see it as almost narcissistic. I've actually seen
some interesting commentary online about kind of accusing people who
are talking about any disorder recovery or talking about their experiences,
accusing them of being fat phobic, and it's like, no,
that is the mental illness though, that's what's making that
(28:57):
person incredibly sick. Have you found that interesting the kind
of way that people engage with this story of you
having an eating disorder, that like, there can be a
bit of a misunderstanding.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, for sure. I wanted to explore the nuance in
the book, which was saying that, Yeah, when I developed
the eating disorder, I was prime for what you think
someone with an eating disorder is young, white, wealthy woman
given everything pretty much affectionists perfectionist decides to go on
a diet, doesn't like the way her body looks even
though she's a standard size. Oh no, she shouldn't eat
(29:33):
disorder Now, what I wanted to explain was that when
it's an eating disorder, and even when you diet, I
think dieting is weird and it shouldn't be normal. But yeah,
when you have an eating disorder, it tips over into
something that you can't control. So yeah, I was controlling
it at the start. Yeah, I decided to diet. Did
I decide to develop an eating disorder? Nah? But it happens,
and that's not discussed enough. I feel like we say
(29:54):
it's either you see the person who's really sick and
it's very obvious to everyone that this person has an
eating disorder, or you have these other gray areas, which
was what was really important for me to try and
get across in the book, because I think there's so
many people who don't fit the diet diagnostic criteria, who
fly under the radar, who will be sick for the
(30:15):
rest of their lives, will be stuck in diet culture,
and so much of the life and excitement and spontaneity
is stripped out of their life in a way that
they might not even be aware of. Because I think
that it's so important to show that you can go
back to having this like childlike wonder and sense of excitement. Yeah,
and that's something that I think is hard to tap
(30:36):
into when you're on a diet.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, And I think it's weird with eating disorders. I
think because thinness is so valorized in our culture, we
can almost look at people with eating disorders with contempt.
Like even I don't know if you had this, like
at school or when you're a young woman and there's
somebody in your orbit who has an eating disorder, you
almost gossip about it as though it's malicious, Like it's
(30:59):
the weirdest thing. If what I'm saying is through that
person is suffering and I don't see it as suffering.
When you have an eating disorder, do you feel that,
Like do you feel people looking at you in that
strange contemptuous way.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, well I remember being on the side of the
person who's contemptuous, and I write about it in the book,
these girls who were clearly going through something, and they
would be spoken about like, uh, like of course, like
everyone was kind of jealous. Yeah, in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
So fucked up.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, it's so fucked Then as an adult, Yeah, there
was definitely times where if someone not necessarily criticized me,
but called it out. I'd be like, Okay, you're jealous
because and a lot of the time people were dieting
and I was like, you're just jealous that I'm doing
it way better than you and I'm the boss of dieting.
But mostly honestly, I was just complimented all the time,
and like i'd go try on outfits, like the people
(31:51):
working at the stores would be like, oh wow, like
you could wear anything like that look so good on
you to me, And I see it now. I feel
like it was obvious that I had an eating disorder
when I was definitely a low weight. There's also I
don't know, this is like my gut telling me to
say this. I'm not sure if it's true or not,
But like if I saw myself as someone who's gone
through it, it would be very clear to me very
(32:12):
quickly what I was going through the way that my
body looked, my energy, my aora in a room. So
the idea that people were seeing that and kind of
not and thinking that it was normal or something to
be jealous of is crazy to me now. But I
think it's also normal to be jealous of something like
(32:33):
that will valorize as you say, skinniness.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah. When I worked in that residential treatment center. The
other thing I noticed, and you talk about this in
the book, is that these women who were dealing with
a variety of eating disorders, they had all the knowledge,
they had read all the research about their disorder how
to recover from it. Like they were like clinical psychologists
(33:00):
with what they knew, yet they weren't recovering. And I
think sometimes with mental illness, there's this difference between knowing
something and actually feeling it. When did that emotional shift
come for you, because there has to be some other
You can know everything, but there's this moment of like,
(33:20):
oh this actually has to change that almost comes out
of your control. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh. I love talking to you about these because I
just feel like you completely get it. You're so yeah.
I think that's what a lot of people. When you're
experiencing a mental illness, you go real deep into it.
Like it's a warning sign. When I'm going on Reddit
to research how someone's feeling about something, Yeah, that's when
I'm like, I'm deep in it, yeah, and I don't
even realize. Yeah. I think that's also why I enjoyed
(33:47):
writing the book, because I was so obsessed with eating
disorders when I had one that I kind of had
the knowledge based, so.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Like I've read all the studies about the experiments where
people were hungry, so they did all these behaviors that
people with even disorders then do, like you know, all
of that stuff. What I find interesting about your story
is that it was kind of a shitty thing that
happened to you that really opened the door for recovery,
(34:14):
which was getting let go from pedestrian. Can you tell
me about that period of your life and how that
kind of evolved into starting a different phase.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, it was so surprising when I got made redundant.
I mean, if you work in the media or any
kind of job like that, that happens quite a lot.
Doesn't really matter who you are or how good you
are at your job. I'd worked for the company for
four and a half years, and that's a pretty long
time in your twenties, I think, So just to be
let go over Zoom during COVID, I was like, oh
my god, my life is a nightmare, Like how did
(34:45):
this happen? And it's easy for me to kind of
laugh about myself back then now because it's worked out
well for me. But it gave me a moment to
look out of myself and be like, this can be
taken away from me at any moment, this career can
be taken away from me at any moment. I'm tailoring
my whole life around this job, and now it's gone.
So where am I going to get that sense of self?
(35:07):
It was such a weird time. It was all kind
of serendipitous. This happened during COVID because all the gyms
were closed. You couldn't socialize, so everyone kind of contracted
kind of closer to my world in a lot of ways,
which again, yeah, I think it like opened up the
door for me to recreate myself. I think it could
have gone either way, Like it was sad getting a
(35:29):
major john, and I think I could have gone more
deeper into restricting as a means for control. But I
think I was at that point where I was open
to the idea of relaxing my rules. It was giving
the end of the world vibes.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
If the world's ending, I'm not going to be fucking hungry.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I got to enjoy this, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And so once you relaxed those rules,
then what happened?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yes, So I gained weight, and mentally I became more relaxed.
To be honest, what happened was I went back into
binge eating, which is what I'd experienced prior to the
restrictive eating disorder that was really hunting and upsetting. The
mentality is similar to a binge itself, which is I thought,
all week I've been so good, or like all the
(36:17):
last two or three years, I've been so good, and
now it's the weekend and I'm sending it and I
could have just been eating normal the whole time. That's
how it felt. Felt like I'd wasted all this time.
So you've got a lot of competing things that are
upsetting and disturbing. What I read and even when it
was happening to me, I didn't want to believe it
is that weight gain is so important. Weight gain is
(36:38):
the number one key. Eating is the number one key.
It wasn't until I got help from a specialist who
understood that that I could actually reap the benefits of
that eating, which is getting more fuel to your brain,
being able to make more rational decisions. But that's always
the hardest bit because you're facing your biggest fear and
(37:00):
when you are really sick and you and it manifestos
being depressed. You're like, well, I don't want to be
fat and depressed and now going to be fat undepressed
rather than skinny and depressed. And because skinny being skinn
is the number one thing in my life, I'd rather
skinny and depressed. But what happens if you finally have
enough guardrails in your life that you can push yourself
(37:21):
a little bit and like take one step forward and
do the thing, gain the weight or eat a bit more,
then everything starts opening up. You take a step, SciOne
said the other day, and it's a bit woo woo,
but like when you take one step forward, the universe
takes a step forward too. Yeah, that mental image really
resonated with me because that's how it felt. I didn't
want to write a book that was from a place
of total recovery where I'm talking about loving yourself and
(37:44):
it's crazy to diet. That is kind of what I say,
but I wanted to keep enough detail in there for
people to know. No, I think I know how you feel.
I don't want to say that I do, because everyone's different,
but just know that I feel like I know what
you're going through right now, and I want to be
not an example necessarily, but I just want to show
(38:04):
a certain life that I've cultivated post eating disorder. It's
like it's in a whole different realm. It's not way better,
it's completely different life that I always wanted since I
was a little kid, and I've got it now.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And you also say in the book that for a
lot of people, you hear that you can never fully
recover from an eating disorder. That you partially recover or
I think some research as it takes like seven years
to recover. And from the work I did, you would
see people come in and out and in and out
of residential treatment of impatient treatment, and that must be
(38:39):
a kind of scary feeling when you're doing this really
hard thing and then thinking, well, I'm not even going
to fully recover from this, or I could do all
this work and then I'll be back here anyway. What
do you think were some of the really clarifying moments
for your recovery that allowed you to recover fully.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, you're always going into it being not one hundred
percent sure how it's going to turn out. And again,
it's easy to look back now and see the really
specific moments where I was making really big leaps, but
at the time it's like you're in the dark trying
to feel around. Yeah. I always found that narrative that
full recovery is not possible really upsetting, and because I
(39:19):
remember when I was especially when I was binge eating,
and I talk about this in the book. I found
out that my mom did the same thing at the
same age, which was super illuminating and crazy to me
because when I was binging. When I first started, I
thought I'd invented binging and purging. I was like, oh
my god, I found his cheek code. I didn't need
anyone to teach me how to do that. I did
it myself. Oh my god. My mum would say to me,
(39:40):
God bless her. She didn't mean this to kind of
keep me trapped, but I struggled with it. She was like,
one day I just woke up and it stopped. It's
like if there was a switch that was flicked, and
that really I struggled with that because I never felt that.
Looking back, I can see moments where the switch was
actually flicked, but it's so important. I think you can
(40:02):
wait around and think, oh wait, no, I'm going to recover.
It's going to come to me. It's going to come
to me. When in actuality, it's continually taking steps and
steps and steps, and then the time you take the
biggest step, then you start going like this and it's fine.
But yeah, I think the idea that it's never possible
to recover, I just think that keeps people from taking steps. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
What should you not say to somebody who's recovered from
an eating disorder?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
You look healthy? No more? Yeah, that's the classic that's
been around forever. You look healthy. Yeah, thanks for nicing.
Thank you for pulling me out of myself and reminding
me that I have a body that I'm trying to
not prioritize so well meaning I still get it to
this day. I still have family friends who stop me
after lunch and say, hey, you look really.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Good, and you're like, I, that's not the points the
point do you think you just don't comment on appearance?
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I think you have to, and I think it's something
that is a muscle that you have to. I stop
myself all the time. I even said it to your
beautiful producer. I couldn't help myself. It's such nice hair,
and even then I was like, don't think I should
be saying this, So I said, haircut? Is that something
you can change? But you know, even that, I'd really
try not to. I've been around people in my life
who've shown me a different perspective and been like, say,
(41:20):
someone wears like really outrageous clothes or something that other
people deem outrageous. If you say whoa, If you're like
someone who doesn't dress like that, and you say, WHOA,
you look great, it doesn't feel sincere. There's so many
different You don't know where someone is in their life
and there how they feel about themselves to do it
in a way that's not dangerous. I feel I was
very sensitive when I had my eating disorder, and so
(41:42):
I just try not to do it. My rule is
you compliment things you can take on and off, and
only if you really mean it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
So even if there was somebody in your life who
you knew was trying to lose weight, and you knew
enough to think that maybe it was just for health
reasons and there was nothing sinister about it, would you
still not say anything.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Well, I think that if it's for health reasons, then
it shouldn't be relevant that they look different. But also,
I'm sure there's people who want to lose weight and
it isn't a full blown eating disorder, and they probably
want to hear that. But I just think that we
can't divorce the piousness of being thin from anything else.
So it does feel like a character judgment when you say, oh,
(42:27):
you're losing weight. Yeah, because ninety seven percent of diets
don't work in the long run, So they're going to
gain it back and they're going to feel bad because
they're going to remember that if you're going to compliment
them on the way down when I'm on the way
back up, you must think I'm insert derogatory term.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
More of my conversation with rooms after the break Right now,
you have a very loyal following and you share really
really funny content. You've been doing that for a long
time in internet years. Sharing on the internet comes with feedback.
(43:08):
Now that you've been through that whole ex experience of
going through recovery for a mental illness and working on
self esteem and self worth, do you get affected by
what people write about you on the internet?
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:22):
What are the comments that actually hurt?
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yeah? Totally know what you mean. For me. The thing
that actually affects me, and this happened last night with
a guy. It's when men comment on my body. Yeah,
and they're never really saying anything bad. Yeah, it's always
about my figure, my big boobs, this or that. That
affected me, especially prior to the book coming out, because
I have breast implants and so when I had them out,
(43:47):
when I wore a top that wasn't a fucking Hessian bag,
that would affect me because I'd feel like I'd ask
for it and I felt like an idiot. I just
made me feel so small, and it was annoying because
people would be like, oh, like it's just men, of
course they're going to do that. But I was like,
it makes me cry and I don't know why because
it shouldn't. Like there's other stuff that people say that
(44:08):
should make me cry. But I think I'm pretty. I
have a lot of self esteem about my ability to work.
I like myself as a writer. I think I have
a good eye for things, so I can sit quite
comfortably in that. But when it comes to my body,
it really affects me. It's weird. And yeah, when men
make comments about my mummy, milkeruse, Oh.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
It's such the mummy milk is thing.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
It is so intense, like horrible. It's comments like that
that really affect me again because it makes me feel
like an idiot, and especially because I have breast implants.
It plays into this narrative that I have in my
head that I've asked for it, So that affects me.
I just hate it because it pulls me out of
myself because I think to myself, Oh, I'm having fun
on the internet. I've just got fun. People that get
(44:52):
it are watching me, and then I remember, oh, no,
there's this whole silent audience of people who don't give
a fuck what I have to say. They don't think
I'm funny. They just see this woman on the internet
who has big boobs. Yeah. Yeah, So comments like that
upset me because.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Yeah, I get that. There's a weird kind of like
I don't know what's shame is the word, but you
feel like sexualized when it's like I have not been
complicit in this sexualization, Like no, and I think women
you do feel silly. Like I remember I was working
once in a bar and just wearing something I thought
was totally normal, and a guy just stared at my
(45:29):
boobs and made a really vulgar comment, and I felt
like sick. Oh, and I think it was the same thing.
It's like, did I do this? Am I complicit because
I'm not wearing a turtleneck? I think maybe I asked
for it.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, it's the weirdest thing. It's so bad. Yeah, you
feel Yeah it's shame.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
It's a shame or yeah, it's shame. Oh. And then
I think about it. I'm like, wait, no, bitch, I'm
going to the beach. Yeah. And you wouldn't be making
this comment if I you know.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, exactly. Working in this industry, do you experience jealousy
or competitiveness and what does that look like? Yes?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I do. I always have in a way, kind of
in a silent way. I remember when I was in UNI,
there was a woman who was really smart and she
was kind of the best in the class, would always
get really high distinctions. And I don't think I'm a
competitive person, but clearly I am. Yeah, I remember, I
remember I won't dox her name, but she was just
(46:29):
really just effortlessly good. And it became like a topic
in my psychology sessions because I was so hung up
on it, and it plays into that obsessive personality, the
rumination thinking, oh, like she's just so good, Like I
don't know what to do, and so yeah, when I
feel jealousy, especially in this career path, it shows me
(46:51):
where to go when I can take enough of a
step out of it for a second and not let
the emotion overtake me. I say that person, I'm so
jealous of them because they're doing something that I want
to do. Then I go into planning mode. I'm like, Okay,
how can I do what they're doing? What part of it?
You know? Because sometimes it happens with people who job
I don't want and whose vibe I don't want to emulate,
but I'm still thinking, oh, but they're doing this thing,
(47:12):
like how do I So Yeah, I think it can ultimately,
when you can take a step away, it can be
a good motivating force. But definitely, when it's overwhelming, it
just paralyzes you and I fully spiral.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
It can be really clarifying that. Yeah, you think, if
I've got this feeling and it's an uncomfortable feeling, then
it is telling me something about what I want. And
if I didn't get that feeling, ever, I wouldn't be ambitious,
I wouldn't have goals and I feel exactly the same thing,
feel the same, yeah, And I think, yeah, you look
at you probably have it with a book, like as
(47:49):
you were writing, like looking at people who have books
and me like, well, that's done really well. Well, that's
done really well. Why did that do well?
Speaker 1 (47:53):
They?
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Oh my god, I want exactly what they have And
it kind of paves a path for then you to
do the same thing, literally, which is very exciting. When
are you at your happiest at the moment?
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Oh, I'm at my happiest when I have so much
in my to look forward to. That's always been the
thing for me that's gotten me out of any phase.
Is it just need one or two things that I'm
genuinely excited about and there's always something. I think. I'm
happy when I'm meeting you people and always just having
(48:27):
someone to hang out. We have become a really social
person after my eating disorder. Yeah, it's just for me
whenever I've got something to look forward to.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
What are your challenges to happiness? Like, what keeps you
from happiness?
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Comparison obviously procrastinating when I've got things to do. I've
become a bit of a procrastinator also coming out of
eating disorder, to be honest, which is a bit of
a negative, Like I used to be super early to
things and very RIGI and it helped away, but now
I'm always running a little bit late. You know, when
you've got something so meanial to do that you just
put it off and then everything feels crab.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
That's interesting though, because it's almost like that's what happens
when you prioritize joy a little bit, when you're like,
hold on, I actually care about feeling good. I remember
reading something about how people with eating disorders they don't
like doing things that feel good, so they won't get massages,
they won't like get their hair done because there's not
that kind of self love. And that's interesting that you
(49:24):
were probably prompt with things and because you didn't mind
being uncomfortable because you were always so true, whereas now
you're like, oh, I prioritize toy. Yeah thats me.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
My to do list will roll over week to weeks
before I'm doing it second right now. That's kind of fun.
And if it makes you feel weary in life, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, when you think about growing old, What do you
still want in life in order for you to have
lived a really happy existence.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
I want a community. I want like a big family.
I want to have people around me that enjoy my company.
I want to have young people around me and old
people around me. I want to maintain this sense of
excitement that I have, and that's kind of always been
a hallmark of my life. Like I've always been kind
of like an enthusiastic person. I don't even want that
to go away. I think, yeah, really important relationships, really
(50:20):
deep relationships. I've got a lot of like amazing soulmate friends,
So keeping them, nourishing them feels really good to me,
and it always has, and I know how lucky I
am to have. Like my best friend Madison is a writer.
We've been best friends since we were fourteen, and that's
such something that is a little apple core that I
(50:41):
just put in the ground and it just continues to
grow and it's such a beautiful thing to watch. And
every year that we remain friends adds a little corn
to the tree. So exciting. So yeah, I think for me,
I'm excited that the idea of getting older that I
can like accumulate lovely possessions that I love and like
beautiful clothes, and there's still that material side to me
(51:01):
that I really can't get rid of. But yeah, having
a community and people that I love is important to me.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
And right now in your life, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yes? Yeah, you can say it right. That is so
good to hear. I'm happy that you read my book twice. Yeah,
that's enough to do me for the day.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well, thank you so much for your time. I really
appreciate it. That is all we've got time for. On
today's episode of But Are You Happy? Frums's new book,
All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot is out
now and I highly recommend it. We will pop a
link in the show notes this conversation with such a
brilliant exploration of the pain of living through an eating
(51:45):
disorder and the joy that comes with recovery, which we
so rarely get to see. To sit in a room
with frooms with enter Price is to see a person
who is so full of life and so charismatic. And
I sometimes need this reminder. So I'm just going to
(52:06):
say it out loud that when you sit in a
room with somebody and you really connect with them and
you have a lively and vulnerable conversation. It just does
not matter what they look like, what size they are,
whether their hair or makeup or clothing is perfect, whether
(52:27):
they have creases on their face, which I do and
I think about way too much. You just feel their energy,
and I think it's such a good reminder for all
of us that we think about it so much more
than we need to, given that it isn't what anybody
else values about us. I really hope this chat was
(52:48):
an insight into how oppressive beauty standards can be and
how they steal our happiness and the freedom that can
come from challenging them in our own small ways. The
Butterfly Foundation is a great support service for anyone who
struggles with disordered eating or body image issues. There's a
(53:08):
link to them and other support services in our show notes.
And if there's anybody who you think might get something
out of this episode, I know there's a lot of
people in my life who will please share it with them.
And if you want to recommend someone for the show,
you can always get in touch with me directly. I
get the best suggestions from our listeners. You can message
(53:32):
me on Instagram, and if you like the show, leave
us a review. We always love your feedback and it
helps people to find us. The executive producer of But
Are You Happy is Nama Brown and the producer is
Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. I'm your host,
Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And I know from being around people in my life
when I've been well who were in the position that
I was then it is hard to be around someone
with an eating disorder because they are so wrapped up
in their head they don't have time to consider your
feelings a lot of the time in my experience.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hello and welcome Tivdai. You're Happy, the podcast that asks
the questions you've always wanted to know from the people
who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens and
today's guest is Lucinda Price, also known as Rooms. She's
an author and a comedian and a broadcaster and an
Internet personality, and you might know her from being Really
(01:06):
Bloody Funny on Instagram. She's performed at some of Australia's
largest live events and stages. She's written for TV, she's
got a cult following, and she's just released her debut book,
All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot, which is
essentially about the body image problem that every woman who
(01:29):
has grown up in Australia in the last thirty years
has been subjected to, and it's essentially about that soup
that we swim in when it comes to Western beauty
standards and the damage it does and for her the
journey of breaking out of it. Froom's is particularly fascinating
(01:52):
talking about the absurdity of the beauty standards that we
grew up with and how everyone wanted to be a
Victoria's Secret Angel. Everyone wanted to look the same way,
and if you were out of those boundaries, you felt
like there was something wrong with you and that you
needed to desperately change something about yourself. I was really
(02:18):
looking forward to having this conversation because before I started
in media, I was doing a Masters of research in psychology,
specifically looking at public health messaging around obesity and eating
disorders and how they entirely conflict. And it looked at
the overlap between obesity and eating disorders and the insidiousness
(02:42):
of fat phobia and the way it's damaging not only
for a person's mental health but also for the goal
of physical health. So many women have had their lives
and their joy stolen from them because of the noise
around eating, shape and weight, and it's a conversation I've
(03:04):
wanted to have on this podcast for so long, and
I knew that Frooms would be the person to have
that conversation with. I started by asking her about her childhood.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh, I love that you just get straight into it.
That's great, I would say, yeah, for sure. I was
actually thinking on the way here, my sister and I
are like everything to our parents, and there's nothing that
they wouldn't do for either of us, Like their life
revolves around us really, and not in like a coddled way,
but rather like I could sit in my hands and
(03:43):
clap and my mum would be like, oh my god,
that's iconic, so I could do it again. So I've
definitely been enabled. But yeah, I would say any kind
of like unhappiness that I felt was just purely in
my own head, because I feel as though I've really
had a pretty good trot in terms of things that
have been given to me and stuff like that. But
definitely from a young age, I think I had a
(04:04):
few demons in my brain.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You have talked a bit about experience depression. When was
your first experience with it?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
So my first experience with it was probably, funnily enough,
what I feel kicked it off. In my memory was
when I went to a party when I was fifteen
and I greened out. Yeah, so we're passing it around
and I'll never forget. I don't know if this is
like if I'm allowed to talk about this, but I
was like fifteen, so that's fine. We were passing around.
They made this joint that was like a cross and
(04:40):
it was someone's parents. Weit it literally looked like that. Anyway.
I took a puff and like I really inhaled it
like twice, and then straight away I was like, I've
made a massive mistake. And it always happens, and you're
like in a circle of people. Yeah, And I looked
across me. I was looking at someone and behind them
was this red cartoon going like this, like this, like this.
(05:00):
And then we went inside and we watched my favorite
ever movie, Austin Powers, and it was like I was
watching it and eternity dragged on, but it it'd only
been a second. Like I was wigging out. I went
to the bathroom and I vomited and I vomited up
blood and I was like I'm dying. But then my
friend was like, no, it's strawberries. Like I had strawberries
earlier that day.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I had that once when I got really drunk and
I was like vomiting blood and they're like, you've exclusively drank.
What do you use that? Like vodka?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Raspberry raspberry?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah? I was like, it's Vodara, but I'm still drunk.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I'm still drunk and it's probably bloody in my head.
So that actually really rocked me, and thus I don't
touch anything like that anymore because it rack. I remember
feeling so bad that I was like, I'm never going
to do this again. And I often talk about how
I get migraines as a kid, and I'd be like
praying to whatever imaginary god that I believed in, be
like please, I'll eat vegetables and fruit if you just
make it stop. Make it stop. So my whole thing
(05:50):
was like I never want to feel that again. I
think it tipped me over into like I don't know
if it's called derealization or depersonalization or whatever, but it's
like nothing felt real. It was like I was in
a glass box for a few months, and it was
that feeling of like I've done this, I can't rectify this,
Like I'm going to be stuck in this forever. But
before that point, I had bad anxiety and OCD since
(06:12):
I was really young, so I was used to kind
of feeling that real sinking feeling of like I'm stuck,
I'm stuck, I'm stuck. But it just added like a
little bit of like flair to it, where I was
seeing a glass box now feeling it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I have heard a lot of women talk about that
experience with weed. I don't enjoy it, and I don't
even know why I don't enjoy it, but it's probably
a similar thing. I just don't like how I feel,
And I'm a bit the same with like doing anything
that I'm then like, I don't want to not feel
in my body. You're writing your book about how your
(06:48):
dad has bipolar Were you conscious of trying things like
weed and thinking that it might be more risky for
you because of that predisposition.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Literally one hundred percent. And I've got friends who have
parents who have schizophrenia or bipolar one. So my dad
does bipolar one. And why I always put one on
the end is because there are two types of bipolar
one bipolar two. And I'm really passionate about I feel
like that word gets like thrown around so much like
they're bipolar. I'm like, it's such a complicated, interesting experience
(07:19):
people who have it. But that's kind of a side note. Yeah, definitely.
And I grew up like dad self medicated, like did
all kinds of stuff, and I just I didn't want
to have that. I knew like the reality of it.
So I think I don't think mental health was like
discussed in my family in the way that it is now.
It was just a kind of reality that my dad
has bipolar one and he's kind of crazy, and it's
(07:41):
we call him, and I've said this, we call him center,
like he's the center of our family. And it actually
has ended up being quite fun, Like I look back
quite fondly now, even at the things that necessarily weren't.
It's a serious mental illness, Like there's things that aren't
fun about it. But yeah, I don't know if it's
like nostalgia. Yeah yeah, but because that's like a relatively
(08:03):
serious mental illness, any kind of experience that I had
didn't feel as scary. Yeah, but it didn't also related
in a lot of ways. But I think later on
in life, when I was medicated and really kind of
like trying to work through it. Then I would kind
of draw parallels.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
You had OCD when you were really really young. What
did you used to do? Like how did that manifest?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh? My god, so it started when I sing you
think kindergarten. I'm smiling even though it's like so shit,
And I just remember, like I couldn't wear socks, like
Mum would have to put on and off my socks
again and again and again, and she just thought that
I didn't like the way they felt, and I thought
that that was the same. But I realized it would
be because I was like going into this new environment
and I didn't feel in control. But it really flared
(08:52):
up and became a serious problem when I was in
year seven. Again. Change it happens, and it still comes
up to me whenever something's changing.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And it's weird. Often you can't tell in the moment,
you don't have the self awareness. In the moment, you're like,
but everything's fine and normal, that hasn't been anything, And
then you look back on it and you're like, yeah, year.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Seven, Yeah, Yeah, isn't that weird how it works like that? Yeah,
it's like that's the real hardest part of it. I
feel is this unawareness even if you feel like you're
a self aware person. But oh my god, it was
so bad in year seven. I just I felt like
I didn't fit in and I couldn't like find my
bearings at this new school. And so I would be
(09:30):
so hyper vigilant about everything that I did and every
way that I behaved, and I became obsessed with thinking
that I was offending people. So like i'd brush past
someone on the bus and like my bag would hit
their blazer, and for the whole day, like that'd be
in the morning, For the whole day, I'd be thinking
about it again and then ruminating, being like I did
this thing. Oh my god, am I a bad person?
Then I'd catch the bus home and Mum tells me, now,
(09:51):
she's like, it'd be like you were busting to use
the toilet. You'd sit in the car and then have
to wait, wait till we get home. Walk into my
room with my mum. She'd sit on my bed, and
again and again and again, I'd have to say, I
brush past Sarah on the bus today, Does that mean
I'm rude? Mean or offensive? Does that mean I'm rude?
Mean or offensive? And I'd say again, and again, I'd
say it fifty times. And this is why I also
(10:13):
think it's so important to like championing the people that
are around people with mental illness, because like the patience
that my mum showed in sitting with me, she had
to say no in the perfect cadence. If I glinted
in her eye that maybe she didn't mean it, we'd
start the pattern again and this would go on for
like an hour, sometimes after school, and she didn't really
(10:34):
know what to do, like what do you do? So
I didn't get therapy or anything for it, because and
I speak about this in my book, it did eventually
go away, like it comes in episodes. It's not like
this constant thing like I feel fine right now, but
it kind of all went away when I died in
my hair blonde. And that's hence all ever wanted was
to be hot. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
You released your debut book in September, and I have
read it twice. It's a bit of a memoir, a
bit of a manifesto, and in one of the early
chapters you tell a story about something that you chose
to do, and that chapter ends with you seeing the
results of that and writing it was one of the
happiest moments of my life. That thing was a Nodes
(11:15):
job and you were seventeen. Can you tell me exactly
what that moment was like? And I've just realized you
like to call it rhinoplasty. We did not use the
casual lands plastic surgery rhinoplasty. Can you tell me exactly
what that moment was like?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Of course? And can I just say you reading my
book so early on and giving me the most amazing endorsement,
like made me feel so comfortable and excited about this
book because it's so scary when you write something like this.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
It's so thank you, so oh, it's so brilliant. As
soon as I saw the title, I was like, oh,
I have all the time in love with I'd thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Oh yeah, I can tell you exactly how it felt.
It was summer, and I'd wanted this thing since I
was eleven, and I thought about it so much, but
in kind of like a good way, Like I was
just so excited for when it was going to happen.
I think it could have turned out looking any sort
of way, and I would have been happy just for
having that agency to change it. It just felt like
it was akin to the feeling of like the life
(12:10):
day of school or getting my license. It was around
that time where all of those things were happening, so
it really kind of like divorced me from a girl
into a woman. Britney spears vibes and yeah, I just
remember thinking, Okay, now I'm comfortable. Now I feel like myself.
People speak about this, so I've spoken to There can
be like a dysphoria or a dysmorphia, I don't know,
(12:31):
like you don't feel yourself until you fix something. And
I think that's where plastic surgery can be really helpful.
And I think sometimes those stories aren't told enough because
you either hear the like really happy success stories or
the disasters where for a lot of people it kind
of is this like quiet, grounding, peaceful experience when you
fix something that you don't.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Like, even if it's like a messy path of why
you didn't like it in the first place. Would you
write in the book about certain comments that you got
or just certain moments where this insecurity kind of emerge
and you're able to at once see that like it's
sad and unfair that you felt that way, but the
truth is you did feel that way. And once you
(13:13):
saw the results, you were stoked. Yeah, and that's that's okay,
Like you genuinely felt happiness in that moment, and we
kind of shot on women a little bit for that.
Was it something that once you had it, because obviously,
like your friends would have known you had a partner
at the time, who knew? Did you feel comfortable telling people?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
No? No, No, it was just like people in my
immediate circle. But even until writing this book, like, I
was so scared talking about it because it is an
insecurity of mine, the fact that my nose looks different,
Like I don't like sharing old photos of myself because
I don't like giving people permission to shit on this
little girl who felt self conscious. And yes, it's changed,
but I'm still that person. The part of my nose
(13:57):
is just in a bin somewhere. But no, it took
me so long to even consider talking about this with
people that I don't know, because yeah, like I said,
there's still that like insecure part of me. You know,
I'm so worried people and think, oh, she must be
so naturally fuggly, Like I don't like giving people permission
to like Bar's judgment, even though of course they are,
(14:19):
but surprisingly writing about it and putting it out there,
like no one seems very scandalized by it, and that's
quite powerful for me, you know, it's kind of freeing.
It's like, oh cool, I think one day I'll be
able to share photos of myself and it doesn't matter
what you think, because and it's true, Like I look
back at photos of myself now, and being honest about
it has also changed the way that I see my
(14:40):
old self. I see, oh, she wasn't even that bad,
Like I think it really was very much in my
head and that's why I'm glad I got it. But yeah,
definitely there's still a bit of feeling like I don't
want to give people ammunition to judge me.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
It must be a little bit like exposure therapy, because
if it's something so scary and something that you were
certain was going to go a certain way once you
share this truth and it hasn't, that must be especially
for somebody who is predisposed to being anxious, that must
be quite comforting. You write candidly in the book about
(15:15):
wanting to be pretty unpopular, and you say you infiltrated
the popular group just by going blonder. As someone who
was never in the popular group. What does it feel
like to me in that group?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh my god. That was another thing that I was
really scared about writing about because it's like, I feel
like I got my wish, Yeah, and I'm like I
can see. I mean, I don't know, because I never
didn't have it like I did have it for like
a year and a half. I've felt so like a floater,
like I didn't have friends, and it really affected me.
So I think I don't know what it would have
(15:46):
been like if I just stayed like that forever. I
think I would kind of be a different person, to
be honest. Oh my god, it felt good.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Is it competitive? Like when everyone you talk about like
the cheerleader effect and the fact that like everyone's hot
and then everybody seems hot because you're all hot together.
What does that power feel like? And especially being able
to compare it with when you didn't have that social capital.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah. Well, it's kind of not dissimilar to work now,
Like it's a popularity contest what we do in a
lot of ways. So it kind of probably primed me
for that. For me, I don't think it changed you
I was as a person, but I think it made
me a better person actually, because it meant that I
felt like I could. I've felt a lot of agency,
and I think I'm my best self when I feel
(16:33):
a bit more in control. And I felt accepted even
though it was this thing that, yeah, it is kind
of complicated because there's like haves and have nots, right,
but yeah, I definitely still knew that it was conditional,
so I definitely had to work towards it with the
blonde hair and looking a certain way and behaving a
certain way in front of boys. But I think I
(16:54):
was still myself in a lot of ways. It's like
survivors guilt because I'm like, I know what it was
like to really feel like I didn't fit in.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Do you feel like fitting in being hot, being blonde?
That having that safety net gave you per to be
who you were, like I think you say in the book,
like to be a weirdo, to be crazy, funny and
out there and follow whatever instincts you had. Do you
(17:23):
think because you had the safety net of hotness, but
you could do that.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
One hundred percent? Because I remember when I didn't. When
I was in year seven and we had this like
drama class and I did this whole performance, and I
remember at the end of it, I like slid across
the floor in my tights and everyone was like whoa
because it was kind of like good, like it was
kind of like a really good move, and I was
like whoa. But again, I felt like a freak. Everyone
thought I was like this weird girl running around the school.
(17:50):
I think as well. When I'm anxious, I blink a lot,
so i'd kind of bounce around the school like blinking
and like kind of being really oh hey, like kind
of dorky because I hadn't really come into being a
proper teenager yet. And people used to say to me,
like I remember in drama class, one guy was like,
I thought you were hot, but then I got to
know you, so was that kind of vibe, which is.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Actually kind of and you're kind of like that's what
I want. Yeah, I feel like that kind of And
it's weird in that sometimes it's like, did you only
get to know me because I was hot? Like did
somebody only bother to get to know your funniness because
you'd lued them in fully?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Fully? Catfish?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah, well yeah I didn't even take it. I
took it as a compliment because I'm like, I'm glad
that you are seeing me for who I am, which
is like this exactly how I present, I guess and
the things that I find funny. So yeah, definitely gave
me permission. And I feel like sometimes as young girls,
we need something to give us permission. And that's what
it was. For better or worse.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
After the break, Froom shares her experience in what was
supposed to be a dream media role but instead left
her feeling increasingly dissatisfied with her appearance. A moment that
sticks out to me as a time the world told
(19:15):
you you'd be happy and you weren't, or when you
thought you'd be happy and you weren't, was when you
got your job at Pedestrian. Can you tell me about
the role and what it involved.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, of course. So yeah, I got a job a
Pedestrian as a health and fitness editor when I was twenty.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Got an editor at twenty, I know, how what the hell?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
That's why I was like, yes, like I'm killing it.
So I really was happy when I got that job. Yeah,
I was like obviously felt a lot of pressure because
I felt like, oh, I've really got to make this work.
Like I wanted to work there so bad, but it
was so out of the realm of possibility in my mind. Yeah,
it involved me like going on runs, trying smoothies, writing
about health and fitness, and at that point I'd never
(19:56):
gone on a diet. I thought diets were ridiculous. Again,
that was kind of a privilege, to be honest, because
I'd never been teased for my weight. Yeah, so I
kind of had the privilege of not knowing what it
was like to have to worry about that. So I
think in a way it helped my writing because I
came from a very layman's approach. But what I find
funny looking back is it eventually writing about health and
(20:18):
fitness every day all day really actually started to affect me.
And I think it's a really good tale of the
fact that like, what you consume can consume you, and
what you consume even if you think that you're above her,
even if you think intellectually that you can outthink it.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Or you're doing it ironically or whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yes, the ironically thing is a big one, especially if
you pride yourself on being someone who's self aware. I
think it can get you even more so. Yeah, the
role involved trying different things, changing my appearance for a story,
doing stuff like that, which again I was twenty. I
thought it was amazing. I was like, I get to
do all this stuff for free. Before that as well,
I'd worked at Lululemon, and part of that was going
(20:58):
and doing exercise classes for free. So I always was
enabled to do these things that I thought were really
positive for me, the context of that being actually a
bit strange when I look back.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
What's fascinating about your story is this fact that the physical,
and especially when it comes to eating disorders, the physical
and the mental feed into each other. So a lot
of people, basically you don't really develop an eating disorder
unless you diet. That's how the psychopathology starts, because it's
(21:35):
your brain becoming so hungry that then like it stuffs
up all the signals and the whole relationship between your
brain and your body. And so you get this job
and you're doing diets or smoothies or thinking obsessively about
health just because that's what you have to do. You
tell a story about a friend coming to visit you
(21:58):
in Sydney and you felt weird after he left, and
then he said, I just don't know if we can
be friends, because that whole time was really weird. What
do you think you were behaving like? In that time?
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I remember very clearly everything pissed me off. I found
everyone annoying, being around people for extended periods of time,
extended periods of time, being like one whole day in
one whole night, like you'd piss me off. I thought
I was better than people, to be honest, I thought
I was smarter. I thought everyone wishes they had my
will power. You know. I was really up my own ass.
(22:35):
But I think I had to be because I was
putting everything into it. So I felt entitled to feel
all of those things, because if I didn't feel all
those things, what was I doing it for. I think
the way it manifested in a social way was everything
having to be my way. I decide when we go out,
I decide what we eat, I decide when we go home.
I don't have time for small talk. Yeah. What I
(22:59):
remember from it was just being really stringent and having
absolutely no spontaneity. And I know how wild that is
now because I'm really spontaneous now. If you call me up,
I'll come do whatever with you or on the weekend,
or like I'm happy to just sit in bed all
day on the weekend if it means we're going to
have a fun time a friend and I together. And
I know from being around people in my life when
(23:21):
I've been well who were in the position that I was,
then it is hard to be around someone with a
neat disorder because they are so wrapped up in their
head they don't have time to consider your feelings a
lot of the time in my experience, but that was
a wake up call in a lot of ways. It
was embarrassing, Like I walked away from that conversation that
I had with him feeling so embarrassed because I didn't realize.
(23:43):
I hate the idea that I made someone feel uncomfortable.
I don't think anyone would liked that idea, to be fair,
but it did make me feel really small and really
really bad. But it still took me a few more
years to think that the problem was that I was
hungry and not that I was depressed.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Was your initial reaction to that to blame that person
and think like, uh, you just don't get me. Maybe
we're not meant to be friends anymore, or did you
kind of see some of the truth in it at
the time.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I think, judging on the fact that I remember being embarrassed,
I think I definitely saw truth in it because we've
been friends since we were like fourteen, him and I.
His name's Ben.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Were you able to repair the friendship?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah? Yeah, oh yeah, Like he was one of my
best friends in high school, like drama kids together, and
now like he came to my launcherit I did in
Melbourne and like wrote this beautiful thing for me, being like,
I'm so proud of the woman you've become. Like he's
really he's really like earnest and other stuff, which I like,
he is very in touch with his emotions. So yeah,
and that kind of makes a friendship like that stronger.
Like he's someone who would just say it how it is,
(24:44):
and I probably needed that in a lot of ways
from someone like him.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I think the way that you describe the reality of
having an eating disorder is so vivid. And I studied
psychology and about ten years ago I worked in a
residential treatment facility with people with eating disorders in the US.
I was only there for such a short time, but
it has stuck with me like nothing else because I
(25:11):
just could not believe how rigid and scary this mental
illness was. I remember we were doing like art therapy
and one girl woman. It's weird, I say, girl, but
like quite important, especially with eating disorders where it can
be quite paternalistic.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Woman.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
She was a young woman, but she was just crying
and crying and saying, I don't know what I meant
to do because I feel so disgusting and I'm putting
on weight and I'm eating this food and I feel
so disgusting in my body. I can't recover because I
can't live like this. And I was like, oh my god,
(25:49):
what are you meant to do? What can you remember
that it felt like to be in the throes of that.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yes, it feels like that. It feels like you've got
two options. I can, yeah, gain weight, which isn't an option,
but okay, we're going to say it's an option. Or
I can die, you know, which also isn't an option.
And that's why I think you can get really stuck
when you're at your lowest. I think there's different degrees
with the eating disorder as well. There was times where
I was definitely still clinically. I hit all the markers
(26:19):
for having an eating disorder, but it didn't feel as severe.
And then there were times where it was really like
I don't know what to do and I'm stuck, like
you said that woman, really rigid and really stuck.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
And I think sometimes it's actually during the recovery process
that you're like, oh, I can't live like this because
I don't know how to live in this body. And
that's when it all hits you. Because eating disorders have
the highest mortality rate out of any mental illness. And
I think that's why this book in your story is
so important, because it's telling that truth about how trapped
(26:53):
you feel and you Originally they kind of diagnosed it
as depression. And do you think that was because you
were just so low?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I don't know. I think, to be honest, that misfire
from a psychiatrist was because of my family history of
mental illness. It's convenient. She was a kind of doctor
that diagnosed me with a disorder. That was her whole
job was to look for signs of that. She didn't
know what I was like before, I said on the questionnaire.
When she was talking to me, I definitely said that
I was dieting, which should have set off red flags
(27:24):
to be honest, but I think it's important, yeah, to
address the fact that eating disorders do have the highest
mortality rate. And it's not because someone's dying of being
really skinny and they're mal nourished. It's because they're taking
their own lives, and it's not discussed enough. It is,
I feel because of that feeling of being stuck. I
know you've discussed experiencing mental illness, and it's that feeling
(27:46):
where it's I'm stuck. I've got two options, and if
you're someone who's really impulsive, then yeah, you got two options.
And I think it's important. It's so funny. I doled
out that statistic on my Instagram a couple months ago
and someone said, oh, yeah, I know they're pretty bad,
but I wouldn't say they're the most lethal.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
As though it's like a subjective, I personally wouldn't say,
it's okay, do you like the data?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
What the hell give me the tea? What's going on here?
And I think that was just indicative of the way
that we look and the way that we think. I
think we think that women are dramatic because yes, people assume, oh,
eating disorders are a thing for young women, and they're
being dramatic and they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that.
It's not about that, it's something they can snap out of.
People aren't talking about that with suppression.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I think because it does disproportionately affect young women,
people do see it as almost narcissistic. I've actually seen
some interesting commentary online about kind of accusing people who
are talking about any disorder recovery or talking about their experiences,
accusing them of being fat phobic, and it's like, no,
that is the mental illness though, that's what's making that
(28:57):
person incredibly sick. Have you found that interesting the kind
of way that people engage with this story of you
having an eating disorder, that like, there can be a
bit of a misunderstanding.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, for sure. I wanted to explore the nuance in
the book, which was saying that, Yeah, when I developed
the eating disorder, I was prime for what you think
someone with an eating disorder is young, white, wealthy woman
given everything pretty much affectionists perfectionist decides to go on
a diet, doesn't like the way her body looks even
though she's a standard size. Oh no, she shouldn't eat
(29:33):
disorder Now, what I wanted to explain was that when
it's an eating disorder, and even when you diet, I
think dieting is weird and it shouldn't be normal. But yeah,
when you have an eating disorder, it tips over into
something that you can't control. So yeah, I was controlling
it at the start. Yeah, I decided to diet. Did
I decide to develop an eating disorder? Nah? But it happens,
and that's not discussed enough. I feel like we say
(29:54):
it's either you see the person who's really sick and
it's very obvious to everyone that this person has an
eating disorder, or you have these other gray areas, which
was what was really important for me to try and
get across in the book, because I think there's so
many people who don't fit the diet diagnostic criteria, who
fly under the radar, who will be sick for the
(30:15):
rest of their lives, will be stuck in diet culture,
and so much of the life and excitement and spontaneity
is stripped out of their life in a way that
they might not even be aware of. Because I think
that it's so important to show that you can go
back to having this like childlike wonder and sense of excitement. Yeah,
and that's something that I think is hard to tap
(30:36):
into when you're on a diet.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, And I think it's weird with eating disorders. I
think because thinness is so valorized in our culture, we
can almost look at people with eating disorders with contempt.
Like even I don't know if you had this, like
at school or when you're a young woman and there's
somebody in your orbit who has an eating disorder, you
almost gossip about it as though it's malicious, Like it's
(30:59):
the weirdest thing. If what I'm saying is through that
person is suffering and I don't see it as suffering.
When you have an eating disorder, do you feel that,
Like do you feel people looking at you in that
strange contemptuous way.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, well I remember being on the side of the
person who's contemptuous, and I write about it in the book,
these girls who were clearly going through something, and they
would be spoken about like, uh, like of course, like
everyone was kind of jealous. Yeah, in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
So fucked up.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, it's so fucked Then as an adult, Yeah, there
was definitely times where if someone not necessarily criticized me,
but called it out. I'd be like, Okay, you're jealous
because and a lot of the time people were dieting
and I was like, you're just jealous that I'm doing
it way better than you and I'm the boss of dieting.
But mostly honestly, I was just complimented all the time,
and like i'd go try on outfits, like the people
(31:51):
working at the stores would be like, oh wow, like
you could wear anything like that look so good on
you to me, And I see it now. I feel
like it was obvious that I had an eating disorder
when I was definitely a low weight. There's also I
don't know, this is like my gut telling me to
say this. I'm not sure if it's true or not,
But like if I saw myself as someone who's gone
through it, it would be very clear to me very
(32:12):
quickly what I was going through the way that my
body looked, my energy, my aora in a room. So
the idea that people were seeing that and kind of
not and thinking that it was normal or something to
be jealous of is crazy to me now. But I
think it's also normal to be jealous of something like
(32:33):
that will valorize as you say, skinniness.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah. When I worked in that residential treatment center. The
other thing I noticed, and you talk about this in
the book, is that these women who were dealing with
a variety of eating disorders, they had all the knowledge,
they had read all the research about their disorder how
to recover from it. Like they were like clinical psychologists
(33:00):
with what they knew, yet they weren't recovering. And I
think sometimes with mental illness, there's this difference between knowing
something and actually feeling it. When did that emotional shift
come for you, because there has to be some other
You can know everything, but there's this moment of like,
(33:20):
oh this actually has to change that almost comes out
of your control. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh. I love talking to you about these because I
just feel like you completely get it. You're so yeah.
I think that's what a lot of people. When you're
experiencing a mental illness, you go real deep into it.
Like it's a warning sign. When I'm going on Reddit
to research how someone's feeling about something, Yeah, that's when
I'm like, I'm deep in it, yeah, and I don't
even realize. Yeah. I think that's also why I enjoyed
(33:47):
writing the book, because I was so obsessed with eating
disorders when I had one that I kind of had
the knowledge based, so.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Like I've read all the studies about the experiments where
people were hungry, so they did all these behaviors that
people with even disorders then do, like you know, all
of that stuff. What I find interesting about your story
is that it was kind of a shitty thing that
happened to you that really opened the door for recovery,
(34:14):
which was getting let go from pedestrian. Can you tell
me about that period of your life and how that
kind of evolved into starting a different phase.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, it was so surprising when I got made redundant.
I mean, if you work in the media or any
kind of job like that, that happens quite a lot.
Doesn't really matter who you are or how good you
are at your job. I'd worked for the company for
four and a half years, and that's a pretty long
time in your twenties, I think, So just to be
let go over Zoom during COVID, I was like, oh
my god, my life is a nightmare, Like how did
(34:45):
this happen? And it's easy for me to kind of
laugh about myself back then now because it's worked out
well for me. But it gave me a moment to
look out of myself and be like, this can be
taken away from me at any moment, this career can
be taken away from me at any moment. I'm tailoring
my whole life around this job, and now it's gone.
So where am I going to get that sense of self?
(35:07):
It was such a weird time. It was all kind
of serendipitous. This happened during COVID because all the gyms
were closed. You couldn't socialize, so everyone kind of contracted
kind of closer to my world in a lot of ways,
which again, yeah, I think it like opened up the
door for me to recreate myself. I think it could
have gone either way, Like it was sad getting a
(35:29):
major john, and I think I could have gone more
deeper into restricting as a means for control. But I
think I was at that point where I was open
to the idea of relaxing my rules. It was giving
the end of the world vibes.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
If the world's ending, I'm not going to be fucking hungry.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I got to enjoy this, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And so once you relaxed those rules,
then what happened?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yes, So I gained weight, and mentally I became more relaxed.
To be honest, what happened was I went back into
binge eating, which is what I'd experienced prior to the
restrictive eating disorder that was really hunting and upsetting. The
mentality is similar to a binge itself, which is I thought,
all week I've been so good, or like all the
(36:17):
last two or three years, I've been so good, and
now it's the weekend and I'm sending it and I
could have just been eating normal the whole time. That's
how it felt. Felt like I'd wasted all this time.
So you've got a lot of competing things that are
upsetting and disturbing. What I read and even when it
was happening to me, I didn't want to believe it
is that weight gain is so important. Weight gain is
(36:38):
the number one key. Eating is the number one key.
It wasn't until I got help from a specialist who
understood that that I could actually reap the benefits of
that eating, which is getting more fuel to your brain,
being able to make more rational decisions. But that's always
the hardest bit because you're facing your biggest fear and
(37:00):
when you are really sick and you and it manifestos
being depressed. You're like, well, I don't want to be
fat and depressed and now going to be fat undepressed
rather than skinny and depressed. And because skinny being skinn
is the number one thing in my life, I'd rather
skinny and depressed. But what happens if you finally have
enough guardrails in your life that you can push yourself
(37:21):
a little bit and like take one step forward and
do the thing, gain the weight or eat a bit more,
then everything starts opening up. You take a step, SciOne
said the other day, and it's a bit woo woo,
but like when you take one step forward, the universe
takes a step forward too. Yeah, that mental image really
resonated with me because that's how it felt. I didn't
want to write a book that was from a place
of total recovery where I'm talking about loving yourself and
(37:44):
it's crazy to diet. That is kind of what I say,
but I wanted to keep enough detail in there for
people to know. No, I think I know how you feel.
I don't want to say that I do, because everyone's different,
but just know that I feel like I know what
you're going through right now, and I want to be
not an example necessarily, but I just want to show
(38:04):
a certain life that I've cultivated post eating disorder. It's
like it's in a whole different realm. It's not way better,
it's completely different life that I always wanted since I
was a little kid, and I've got it now.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And you also say in the book that for a
lot of people, you hear that you can never fully
recover from an eating disorder. That you partially recover or
I think some research as it takes like seven years
to recover. And from the work I did, you would
see people come in and out and in and out
of residential treatment of impatient treatment, and that must be
(38:39):
a kind of scary feeling when you're doing this really
hard thing and then thinking, well, I'm not even going
to fully recover from this, or I could do all
this work and then I'll be back here anyway. What
do you think were some of the really clarifying moments
for your recovery that allowed you to recover fully.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, you're always going into it being not one hundred
percent sure how it's going to turn out. And again,
it's easy to look back now and see the really
specific moments where I was making really big leaps, but
at the time it's like you're in the dark trying
to feel around. Yeah. I always found that narrative that
full recovery is not possible really upsetting, and because I
(39:19):
remember when I was especially when I was binge eating,
and I talk about this in the book. I found
out that my mom did the same thing at the
same age, which was super illuminating and crazy to me
because when I was binging. When I first started, I
thought I'd invented binging and purging. I was like, oh
my god, I found his cheek code. I didn't need
anyone to teach me how to do that. I did
it myself. Oh my god. My mum would say to me,
(39:40):
God bless her. She didn't mean this to kind of
keep me trapped, but I struggled with it. She was like,
one day I just woke up and it stopped. It's
like if there was a switch that was flicked, and
that really I struggled with that because I never felt that.
Looking back, I can see moments where the switch was
actually flicked, but it's so important. I think you can
(40:02):
wait around and think, oh wait, no, I'm going to recover.
It's going to come to me. It's going to come
to me. When in actuality, it's continually taking steps and
steps and steps, and then the time you take the
biggest step, then you start going like this and it's fine.
But yeah, I think the idea that it's never possible
to recover, I just think that keeps people from taking steps. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
What should you not say to somebody who's recovered from
an eating disorder?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
You look healthy? No more? Yeah, that's the classic that's
been around forever. You look healthy. Yeah, thanks for nicing.
Thank you for pulling me out of myself and reminding
me that I have a body that I'm trying to
not prioritize so well meaning I still get it to
this day. I still have family friends who stop me
after lunch and say, hey, you look really.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Good, and you're like, I, that's not the points the
point do you think you just don't comment on appearance?
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I think you have to, and I think it's something
that is a muscle that you have to. I stop
myself all the time. I even said it to your
beautiful producer. I couldn't help myself. It's such nice hair,
and even then I was like, don't think I should
be saying this, So I said, haircut? Is that something
you can change? But you know, even that, I'd really
try not to. I've been around people in my life
who've shown me a different perspective and been like, say,
(41:20):
someone wears like really outrageous clothes or something that other
people deem outrageous. If you say whoa, If you're like
someone who doesn't dress like that, and you say, WHOA,
you look great, it doesn't feel sincere. There's so many
different You don't know where someone is in their life
and there how they feel about themselves to do it
in a way that's not dangerous. I feel I was
very sensitive when I had my eating disorder, and so
(41:42):
I just try not to do it. My rule is
you compliment things you can take on and off, and
only if you really mean it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
So even if there was somebody in your life who
you knew was trying to lose weight, and you knew
enough to think that maybe it was just for health
reasons and there was nothing sinister about it, would you
still not say anything.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Well, I think that if it's for health reasons, then
it shouldn't be relevant that they look different. But also,
I'm sure there's people who want to lose weight and
it isn't a full blown eating disorder, and they probably
want to hear that. But I just think that we
can't divorce the piousness of being thin from anything else.
So it does feel like a character judgment when you say, oh,
(42:27):
you're losing weight. Yeah, because ninety seven percent of diets
don't work in the long run, So they're going to
gain it back and they're going to feel bad because
they're going to remember that if you're going to compliment
them on the way down when I'm on the way
back up, you must think I'm insert derogatory term.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
More of my conversation with rooms after the break Right now,
you have a very loyal following and you share really
really funny content. You've been doing that for a long
time in internet years. Sharing on the internet comes with feedback.
(43:08):
Now that you've been through that whole ex experience of
going through recovery for a mental illness and working on
self esteem and self worth, do you get affected by
what people write about you on the internet?
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:22):
What are the comments that actually hurt?
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yeah? Totally know what you mean. For me. The thing
that actually affects me, and this happened last night with
a guy. It's when men comment on my body. Yeah,
and they're never really saying anything bad. Yeah, it's always
about my figure, my big boobs, this or that. That
affected me, especially prior to the book coming out, because
I have breast implants and so when I had them out,
(43:47):
when I wore a top that wasn't a fucking Hessian bag,
that would affect me because I'd feel like I'd ask
for it and I felt like an idiot. I just
made me feel so small, and it was annoying because
people would be like, oh, like it's just men, of
course they're going to do that. But I was like,
it makes me cry and I don't know why because
it shouldn't. Like there's other stuff that people say that
(44:08):
should make me cry. But I think I'm pretty. I
have a lot of self esteem about my ability to work.
I like myself as a writer. I think I have
a good eye for things, so I can sit quite
comfortably in that. But when it comes to my body,
it really affects me. It's weird. And yeah, when men
make comments about my mummy, milkeruse, Oh.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
It's such the mummy milk is thing.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
It is so intense, like horrible. It's comments like that
that really affect me again because it makes me feel
like an idiot, and especially because I have breast implants.
It plays into this narrative that I have in my
head that I've asked for it, So that affects me.
I just hate it because it pulls me out of
myself because I think to myself, Oh, I'm having fun
on the internet. I've just got fun. People that get
(44:52):
it are watching me, and then I remember, oh, no,
there's this whole silent audience of people who don't give
a fuck what I have to say. They don't think
I'm funny. They just see this woman on the internet
who has big boobs. Yeah. Yeah, So comments like that
upset me because.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Yeah, I get that. There's a weird kind of like
I don't know what's shame is the word, but you
feel like sexualized when it's like I have not been
complicit in this sexualization, Like no, and I think women
you do feel silly. Like I remember I was working
once in a bar and just wearing something I thought
was totally normal, and a guy just stared at my
(45:29):
boobs and made a really vulgar comment, and I felt
like sick. Oh, and I think it was the same thing.
It's like, did I do this? Am I complicit because
I'm not wearing a turtleneck? I think maybe I asked
for it.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, it's the weirdest thing. It's so bad. Yeah, you
feel Yeah it's shame.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
It's a shame or yeah, it's shame. Oh. And then
I think about it. I'm like, wait, no, bitch, I'm
going to the beach. Yeah. And you wouldn't be making
this comment if I you know.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, exactly. Working in this industry, do you experience jealousy
or competitiveness and what does that look like? Yes?
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I do. I always have in a way, kind of
in a silent way. I remember when I was in UNI,
there was a woman who was really smart and she
was kind of the best in the class, would always
get really high distinctions. And I don't think I'm a
competitive person, but clearly I am. Yeah, I remember, I
remember I won't dox her name, but she was just
(46:29):
really just effortlessly good. And it became like a topic
in my psychology sessions because I was so hung up
on it, and it plays into that obsessive personality, the
rumination thinking, oh, like she's just so good, Like I
don't know what to do, and so yeah, when I
feel jealousy, especially in this career path, it shows me
(46:51):
where to go when I can take enough of a
step out of it for a second and not let
the emotion overtake me. I say that person, I'm so
jealous of them because they're doing something that I want
to do. Then I go into planning mode. I'm like, Okay,
how can I do what they're doing? What part of it?
You know? Because sometimes it happens with people who job
I don't want and whose vibe I don't want to emulate,
but I'm still thinking, oh, but they're doing this thing,
(47:12):
like how do I So Yeah, I think it can ultimately,
when you can take a step away, it can be
a good motivating force. But definitely, when it's overwhelming, it
just paralyzes you and I fully spiral.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
It can be really clarifying that. Yeah, you think, if
I've got this feeling and it's an uncomfortable feeling, then
it is telling me something about what I want. And
if I didn't get that feeling, ever, I wouldn't be ambitious,
I wouldn't have goals and I feel exactly the same thing,
feel the same, yeah, And I think, yeah, you look
at you probably have it with a book, like as
(47:49):
you were writing, like looking at people who have books
and me like, well, that's done really well. Well, that's
done really well. Why did that do well?
Speaker 1 (47:53):
They?
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Oh my god, I want exactly what they have And
it kind of paves a path for then you to
do the same thing, literally, which is very exciting. When
are you at your happiest at the moment?
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Oh, I'm at my happiest when I have so much
in my to look forward to. That's always been the
thing for me that's gotten me out of any phase.
Is it just need one or two things that I'm
genuinely excited about and there's always something. I think. I'm
happy when I'm meeting you people and always just having
(48:27):
someone to hang out. We have become a really social
person after my eating disorder. Yeah, it's just for me
whenever I've got something to look forward to.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
What are your challenges to happiness? Like, what keeps you
from happiness?
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Comparison obviously procrastinating when I've got things to do. I've
become a bit of a procrastinator also coming out of
eating disorder, to be honest, which is a bit of
a negative, Like I used to be super early to
things and very RIGI and it helped away, but now
I'm always running a little bit late. You know, when
you've got something so meanial to do that you just
put it off and then everything feels crab.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
That's interesting though, because it's almost like that's what happens
when you prioritize joy a little bit, when you're like,
hold on, I actually care about feeling good. I remember
reading something about how people with eating disorders they don't
like doing things that feel good, so they won't get massages,
they won't like get their hair done because there's not
that kind of self love. And that's interesting that you
(49:24):
were probably prompt with things and because you didn't mind
being uncomfortable because you were always so true, whereas now
you're like, oh, I prioritize toy. Yeah thats me.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
My to do list will roll over week to weeks
before I'm doing it second right now. That's kind of fun.
And if it makes you feel weary in life, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, when you think about growing old, What do you
still want in life in order for you to have
lived a really happy existence.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
I want a community. I want like a big family.
I want to have people around me that enjoy my company.
I want to have young people around me and old
people around me. I want to maintain this sense of
excitement that I have, and that's kind of always been
a hallmark of my life. Like I've always been kind
of like an enthusiastic person. I don't even want that
to go away. I think, yeah, really important relationships, really
(50:20):
deep relationships. I've got a lot of like amazing soulmate friends,
So keeping them, nourishing them feels really good to me,
and it always has, and I know how lucky I
am to have. Like my best friend Madison is a writer.
We've been best friends since we were fourteen, and that's
such something that is a little apple core that I
(50:41):
just put in the ground and it just continues to
grow and it's such a beautiful thing to watch. And
every year that we remain friends adds a little corn
to the tree. So exciting. So yeah, I think for me,
I'm excited that the idea of getting older that I
can like accumulate lovely possessions that I love and like
beautiful clothes, and there's still that material side to me
(51:01):
that I really can't get rid of. But yeah, having
a community and people that I love is important to me.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
And right now in your life, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yes? Yeah, you can say it right. That is so
good to hear. I'm happy that you read my book twice. Yeah,
that's enough to do me for the day.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well, thank you so much for your time. I really
appreciate it. That is all we've got time for. On
today's episode of But Are You Happy? Frums's new book,
All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot is out
now and I highly recommend it. We will pop a
link in the show notes this conversation with such a
brilliant exploration of the pain of living through an eating
(51:45):
disorder and the joy that comes with recovery, which we
so rarely get to see. To sit in a room
with frooms with enter Price is to see a person
who is so full of life and so charismatic. And
I sometimes need this reminder. So I'm just going to
(52:06):
say it out loud that when you sit in a
room with somebody and you really connect with them and
you have a lively and vulnerable conversation. It just does
not matter what they look like, what size they are,
whether their hair or makeup or clothing is perfect, whether
(52:27):
they have creases on their face, which I do and
I think about way too much. You just feel their energy,
and I think it's such a good reminder for all
of us that we think about it so much more
than we need to, given that it isn't what anybody
else values about us. I really hope this chat was
(52:48):
an insight into how oppressive beauty standards can be and
how they steal our happiness and the freedom that can
come from challenging them in our own small ways. The
Butterfly Foundation is a great support service for anyone who
struggles with disordered eating or body image issues. There's a
(53:08):
link to them and other support services in our show notes.
And if there's anybody who you think might get something
out of this episode, I know there's a lot of
people in my life who will please share it with them.
And if you want to recommend someone for the show,
you can always get in touch with me directly. I
get the best suggestions from our listeners. You can message
(53:32):
me on Instagram, and if you like the show, leave
us a review. We always love your feedback and it
helps people to find us. The executive producer of But
Are You Happy is Nama Brown and the producer is
Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. I'm your host,
Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week
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