November 6, 2024 • 55 mins
Did you think we were done for the season? Surprise! We’ve got a special treat for you—a live episode featuring Olympic gold medalist and beloved athlete, Noémie Fox.
In this episode, Clare dives into Noémie’s journey, from growing up in an Olympic family to overcoming self-doubt and failure—topics Noémie has some powerful insights.
So, is Noémie Fox happy? You would think so, wouldn’t you?
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CREDITS:
Host: Clare Stephens
Guest: Noémie Fox
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Audio Producer: Thom Lion
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, it's your host,
Claire Stevens, jumping into your ears to tell you why
this episode of But Are You Happy? Sounds a little
bit different. It's because we recorded it live at south
(00:36):
By Southwest, Sydney in October. I was joined by Olympic
gold medalist no Ami Fox, and I interviewed her in
front of a live audience. But I didn't want any
of you to miss out on hearing this episode, which
is why we've released it for you to listen to enjoy.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Welcome to But Are You Happy?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
The podcast that asked the questions you've always wanted to
know from the people who appear to have it all.
I'm your host, Claire Stevens, and I'm joined by Olympic
gold medalist and widely adored athlete no Amy Fox. Usually
we would get straight into the show, but I wanted
to give just a little explanation of what but Are
(01:17):
You Happy? Is about for anybody who is coming across
it for the first time. So it's not an original
idea to say that Culturally, we're sold a little bit
of a lie about happiness, that achievement brings it, that
being really, really ridiculously good looking might bring it, that
money might bring it, That finding your life's passion is
(01:38):
definitely going to bring it, that being famous or being
applauded or winning a gold medal might bring it, and
that if you strive and strive and do your best
and get the thing, then you will be able to
look around, it will be completely uncomplicated and you will
feel deliriously happy. But deep down we know that humans
(01:58):
are far more complicated than that. I think this lie
is pedled even further now that we live in this
image based culture and we're all absorbing the shiny parts
of other people's lives. Things like birthdays and wedding days
and travel and winning gold medals are reduced to two
dimensional images of smiling faces instead of being felt as
(02:19):
the really complex emotional experiences that they are. The problem
is that then our expectations get really unrealistic, and we
get to certain moments in our lives and we feel
like we're not feeling what we're meant to feel. So
on this show, I ask people like no Amy about
success and failure and vulnerability and jealousy and times the
(02:41):
world told her she'd be happy and she wasn't, And
together we unravel the illusion that anyone's emotional reality is uncomplicated.
So with that, no Amy, I want to start by
asking you whether you grew up in a happy household.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I feel like I've never been asked that question before,
but yes, definitely. I think like any childhood, there's ups
and downs. I think, you know, it wasn't always happy, happy, happy,
and I do think I definitely felt you know, sad
or angry or frustrated a lot of the time, especially
(03:21):
you know, growing up straight away with a sister that
just excelled in every single department.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
But overall, definitely a happy household.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I think, you know, I feel extremely lucky and grateful
to have been instilled really great values of you know,
hard work, discipline. Both my parents from the start. You know,
they didn't push kayaking onto us. I think they let
us discover all these different sports, but we also got
drilled into the lesson of getting back into the boat
or back on the horse when things didn't go well,
(03:50):
or finishing a term of dance even if I hated it.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So there was definitely you know a.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Lot of yeah, that sort of hard work, discipline, but
also so much enjoyment and you know, freedom growing up
in Australia.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
But I was born in France and I.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Moved to Australia at the age of two for the
Sydney two thousand Olympics. My parents were both involved in that,
and I think they just loved Australia, you know, the
freedom that lifestyle brought, how big and green the places were,
the fact that we could walk to school undisturbed and safely,
and so yeah, I think there was so much happiness
and that sort of childhood, but also going back to
(04:26):
France every year and being with my grandparents. But yeah,
I think, you know, it was also quite hard growing
up in Australia without extended family, and that's something that
you know, I reflect on now as I'm getting older
and maybe thinking about starting a family. But yeah, definitely
so much happiness and hard work, commitment, freedom of expression
and yeah, so it was a good, very lucky childhood.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Do you feel like France and Australia are culturally different
when it comes to happiness, Like when you spend time
in France versus when you spend time in Australia, do
you feel like there's a different ethos.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Towards that emotion a little bit. I think Australia's kind
of like you're doing great mentality. And I loved school
in Australia because I felt like I was doing a
great job. In France, I did a few terms and
they'd rip out my paper because I didn't write in
the right cursive handwriting, or I did a few spelling mistakes.
(05:26):
So also, you know, the schools, they were indoors and
we would do school from eight am until six pm
with a two.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Hour lunch break.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And then in Australia you do nine am until three
pm and you run home and then you can play
outside or do swimming, do kayaking, do running. So I think,
you know, today, I do think that life is kind
of easier in Australia.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think it's easy to be happier.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
There's a lot more like dialogue and open dialogue around
mental health and awareness there. In France, I think there's
still that sort of you know, work hard, be the
last one to leave the office, and a bit more
of like the yeah, I don't know. I think it's
much easier to express yourself freely and not feel as
judged maybe in Australia, know the French, they like to judge.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
So what was.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Your dynamic like with Jess when you were growing up,
like she's a couple of years older. Did you feel
I also have a sister Jess who It's funny your
sister Jess was topp to the state in a subject
and was ducks.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
So was my sister Jess.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So I feel like I understand a part of you,
a very small part of you, not the Olympic part.
But what was that dynamic like as you're growing up
and I guess your benchmark for success is just so
bizarrely just the outlier, Like what's that like?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah? I think growing up we were great companions, you know.
I think we traveled a lot with my parents that
were both involved in the sport, and my mum she
would just leave us two together by the river and
we occupy ourselves and I don't really.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Know what we did, but we always, you know, had
each other.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And I think my mum she was an only child,
and so she really wanted to make sure that we
were friends forever. And that's something that she's really been
aware of. Also my dad as well, he's in this picture.
But you know, I think being an only child, she
really wanted to make sure that we were together no
matter what. And that's something that's kind of been reinforced
(07:39):
as it got a little bit more competitive and with
only one spot at the Olympics. And that's also something
we're both very aware of. So our relationship is something
that is incredibly valuable to both of us, and we
both know that sport is kind of leading, but you know,
life is hopefully a very long journey that we can
share together. But growing up, I, as you know, the
(08:01):
younger sibling, I think I tried to, you know, steal
her clothes or things I still do now, but like,
you know, be a little bit, I don't know, try
to edge her on. And she was so and still
is like calm and just like the type of person
that when you realize you keep egging them on and
they don't give you anything, you just stop annoying them,
(08:22):
like come on.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I know.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Like, So we didn't fight really, like obviously there were
moments where you'd have, like, you know, a few arguments,
but I really think it was quite a chill childhood
and relationship even in high school because she's such a
chill person that eventually, I you know, like I just
gave up and started, you know, having a happy relationship
(08:46):
with her. And then yeah, then you know, I think
in high school she started to become really good at kayaking,
and she won the world championships and I was there,
and and then she did like HC topped the state
in what was it, PHP and then got a ninety
(09:07):
nine point one a task. I was like, oh god,
double world champion, senior world champion, nine nine point one
ATA great. I'm just gonna be the disappointment. There's no
I can't do better than that, you know. So I
think that period of my life, you know, when I
did the HC, I there was that like I need
to beat her in something, and I did in one
(09:28):
one self check, And yeah, I think there was always that,
you know, comparison, and even in sport, and then definitely
in sport, so we also nearly did the same degree,
and I'm glad there was like a difference there, but yeah,
there was a lot of comparison. And we all know
that comparison is the thief of joy, but it's also
(09:50):
inevitable and it's inescapable sometimes as well, so definitely hard
kind of having such a huge, you know, like benchmark,
but also being in the same industry. It's not like
I then went on to do medicine and taekwondo. You know,
I was in the same industry and also doing the
same sport. So it's yeah, an inevitable comparison. But also,
(10:12):
you know, Jess is so likable that I never felt
that sort of jealousy or envy, and she has always
been so supportive for my career and my goals. And
even though sometimes you're like, well, it's so degrading because
you're like, oh, good job, that's amazing, and it's nothing
compared to what you've achieved.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
But I'll never forget.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
We were at the New South Wales and Street of
Sports Awards and the person who spoke they said it
was for the world championship medalists and they said, you know,
you start out by being the best in your household,
you're the best in the street, and then in the
state and then in the country. And I looked to
my psychologist who was there with me, and I was.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Like, I'm still on level one.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, so you know I think, yeah, definitely growing up
with that sort of comparison was hard, but it was
also growing up with that benchmark of you know, success,
that benchmark of being able to compare myself every day
to the.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Best in the world. And while there were so many
traps and.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Demons that came with that, there was also so much
growth and good that came from that, and that helped me,
you know, get to where.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I am today.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It's something that I think you notice that I notice
it as a sibling, that the media kind of laughs about,
but I think that there can be some real pain
there when you feel.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Kind of overshadowed in your own family.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
But what I find really interesting I did a deep
dive after your win, and there's all this research about
younger siblings being, like in sport, being incredibly incredibly successful.
And when you think about it, in you know, there's
(11:52):
the Williams sisters, there's Kate and Bronte Campbell, there's something
about that younger sibling having to wait and having to
be patient that genuinely does result in a very spectacular
type of excellence. What do you think that is, like,
(12:13):
what is that mindset that clearly by waiting for your turn,
it actually makes you brilliant in a completely different way,
like like what do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I think it comes down to a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
For me, it was exactly that, you know, I've been
waiting for my moment for such a long time, and
part of me thought that I'd never get that moment,
I'd never get that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I'd always be the.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
One person in my family that wasn't an Olympian, that
never like made it. And so, you know, you get
the jokes like you said of oh my god, what's
it like being the only person that's never made it
to the Olympics in your family, and you're like, ah, great,
Like what do you think you know? Like so yeah, definitely,
you know you laugh it out. But I think it
(13:05):
was something I kind of came to terms with but
didn't didn't completely, you know, extinct wish the fire of
that dream of getting to the Olympics, but it was
always one spot. And when Kaye Cross came to the
Olympic program, it was finally an opportunity for me to
get a qualifying spot. And I think it was that
it was waiting for such a long time to get
(13:26):
that moment that when it came, I was like clinging
onto it, and I was like, I'm not going to
let this go easily. And I think, you know, in
addition to all of that, it's also the mindset of
I think, you know, not having your self worth and
your identity just tied up in the sport because otherwise
you're just completely and just constantly crushed because you have
(13:49):
an older sister that's always successful. So it's understanding that
there's more to life than just sport and trying to
develop yourself in different ways. And so I did two degrees,
did my undergrad then did a master's because in the
period of finishing my undergrad and my masters, I was like,
oh my god, I'm just an athlete. That's really scary,
and I don't know if I just want to be
just an athlete. And I learned that I actually am
(14:11):
more successful in my sport when I have that sense
of balance, you know, that sense of purpose that when
I go to work they think of me as such
a cool athlete, but then in the kayaking community, I'm
the one with the real girl, big job, you know.
So there was that sort of sense of balance and
purpose that came from that, and I think that really
fueled me. So yeah, when that opportunity came, it was
(14:33):
really like, finally my moment. I'm not going to let
this get away very easily. And I think in the games,
that sort of media attention and the expectations of oh,
you're going to be like your sister, You're going to win.
I think for me, I'd already done so much work
in you know, canceling out the expectations the noise, and
for me, I was so driven to like be here
(14:55):
and proud that I'd made it, that my goals and
like my own internal dialogue was out trumping like everything
in the media. So yeah, I think there was a
lot of mindset, mental prep that came with, you know,
kind of building that resilient mindset so to handle all
the expectations to know why I'm there, to know that
you know, I'm also I've had the hardest selection out
(15:18):
of pretty much any other athlete, so.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I'm worthy of being here.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I have what it takes to do well, and yeah,
I'm not going to let my moment, my turn, finally
go easily.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Do you feel like because you'd been exposed to what
success looked like in the lead up to that, like
once you qualify for the Games. Well, even before you
left Australia and you didn't know if you were going
to qualify, do you visualize, like, do you visualize that
moment of winning? Is that a thing?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, it's a thing, and it's something you don't really
talk about because you I don't know. I think I
was kind of embarrassed of telling people that I would
dream of winning the Olympics because it's such a hard
thing to do that. I really mentally prepared myself for
I guess disappointment as well, and I was okay with
the disappointment. But I had a really hard qualification race
(16:11):
in Prague, and in September we had to put in
a strategy in place to to really, you know, focus
on getting to the Olympics. And so for eight months,
visualization was a huge part of my strategy and I
would visualize that race, the rounds, and the finish line
of qualifying to the Olympic Games. And I feel like
I sound so wooy when I say this, but I
(16:31):
really feel like I manifested so much of that result,
even to the point that you know, I was thinking about,
you know, what's the worst case scenario of being up
against you know, who are the worst.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Athletes that would really destabilize me.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And then I ended up in that exact heat that
I was like, Okay, I think I'm really strong mentally.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I need to stop manifesting this.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
But so when I qualified, I really like wrote down
everything to make sure that it wasn't just luck and
you know manifestation. It was also you know, hard work
paying off at the right time, this incredible focus and resiliency,
and yeah, that carried me through to Paris, that sort
of same focus. And and there's a funny story. We
(17:13):
have like a track suit and then we have a
podium tracksuit. And when we were the week of the
competition and just was up first. I was a week later,
and the day before her race, we were neighbors, so
I went into her room and I saw that she
had her podium track suit hanging up so she could
see it every single day. And I was like, oh,
(17:33):
that's such a good idea.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
And then after she.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Won, I actually and when it was the day before
my race, I got my podium tracksuit out and I
tried it on and I hung it up and I
was like, you know, I just wanted to feel what
it was like wearing that. But there was a lot
of visualization about winning, mainly in Prague, and I think
that was my qualification race in June, and then for
(17:58):
the Olympics there wasn't I didn't visualize winning. I didn't
even visualize you know, the podium. I think I had
a completely different visualization process, and it was on the
actual process. You know. It was visualizing the crowd because
normally we compete maybe max. One thousand people are watching.
Here there was fifteen thousand people. The noise was something,
(18:19):
the adrenaline was something, so you know, visualizing this time,
not the heats. I didn't want to manifest being next
to some really tough people, but you know, the media
manifested Jess and I so.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
And yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So there was a different sort of visualization, but it
was definitely a key.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Part of the whole process.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
You say a lot that, especially like leading up to
the Olympics, you were process driven.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
What does that mean.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I think it's so easy to get carried away and
just think about the result. Especially in kyae cross and
ki cross, you have so many different rounds. It's not
like in sylom where you have one race and you've
got to deliver your perfect race.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
In kite cross, you.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Have the time trial, then you have round one, then
you have Heat one, and then you have the quarter final,
semi five, and final. So it's so easy to kind
of get carried away and think, Okay, if I get
top two, then I'm going to be in this and
then I might be up against this person, and then
all I need to do is beat that person and
then I'm in the final. So it's really easy to
get carried away, and also to think compared to slalom,
(19:24):
where you know, if your level is top ten, then
you should make the final and you can hope for
a top ten finish. In kaya cross, you can be
one of the best in the world and be knocked
out in the top thirty two. That's what happened to Jess,
and I think it was a testament to the level
of the women that were competing. It was an incredibly
hard field and so I was, you know, I had
(19:45):
made the Olympics. I didn't want to get carried away
by the expectation of winning, or there was an inherent
fear of being eliminated first. That was definitely there, but
I didn't want to, you know, be consumed by that.
So something that really helped me throughout the whole competition
was just I had, like, you know, my little journal
kind of like Nicola the high jumper, and always you know,
(20:08):
just focusing on the process, what I needed to to do,
how I felt, really reflecting on the facts. I think
it's so easily like you can just get carried away
by thinking of that, you know, the self doubt, the
imposter syndrome, the result. But you know, reminding myself of
my previous results that you know, I had, what it
I have, what it takes to be here, and really
(20:28):
doing that positive reinforcement to stay in the moment and
then focus on what I need to do before getting
on that ramp, and then what I need.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
To do up until the first gate.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So yeah, really staying in the moment and doing you know,
having little cues that kind of help you get in
that moment. But yeah, it's very easy to get carried
away and think of the result and the Olympics essentially
you see the one percent of the success. And it
was really important for me to be be prepared to
(20:59):
have a disappointment but also enjoy the whole Olympic Games experience.
There's so much more to the games than just that
end result and just the certificate you get that says
your place at the end of the the campaign. And
so because it was so hard for me to get there,
because I never thought I would make an Olympics, I
wanted my experience to be defined by more than.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Just my results.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So I signed up to all the activities. I you know,
did the opening ceremony, lived and breathed the magic of
the Olympics. When it was jess as race, I let
myself be carried away as a sister and as a
teammate and to you know, live the wins, not just
to step out. I didn't want to be too emotionally invested,
but you know, I ended up being very emotionally invested
(21:40):
and very drained and exhausted.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
But your batteries recharged quickly because I can imagine, like.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
You could obsess over I think.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That that idea of sticking with the facts is really
applicable to anyone because you can totally psych yourself out.
And I've listened to you talk about your sport and
the fact that in order like even in order to compete,
you sort of have to go over it, like it's
(22:11):
in Europe, and so you could psych yourself out and
be like, well, all these people have the course in
their backyard and I have to fly over here, Like
you could completely lose your mind, and clearly you don't.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Do you have a performance coach or a mindset coach?
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah? I had a sports psychologist that I've been working
with since I think it's been two years, and I think, yeah,
I think it's definitely easy to get psyched out. And
like you said about going overseas and people having a
course in their backyard. We actually had three months of
no water in Australia, so that was very hard. We
(22:51):
had a water quality issue at our only training center
at in Penrith. Green algae blue green algae not great,
our worst enemy, and so we after the selections in February,
we had no water for a whole month and that
was really hard because you start seeing people preparing doing
training camps in Prague, where the Olympic selection was. That
(23:13):
would kind of give me anxiety when I'd open my
phone and see people doing training camps there, or training
camps with other athletes as well. Like I just had
Jess and one other under twenty three guy who was
really great to train with, but other than that, there
really wasn't a level that would help me train for
the Olympic qualification race, and so that in itself was
(23:36):
easy to get psycked out on. And then we went
overseas in March to do a training camp with the
British girls and the French girls, which was great, but
then came back and no water until we left overseas,
so there were lots of little I guess hurdles that
we had to go over that definitely can make it
really hard to.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Swallow I guess.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
And then yeah, back in September as well, having to
give up my World championships to remain eligible to qualify
for the race in June. There was a very messy
period in September because the rules that were written there
were a lot of Yeah, it was basically a policy
that was very confusing for everyone and had a lot
(24:20):
of loopholes and traps, and I was a victim of
those loopholes and traps, and so that was a very
frustrating period. But then yeah, the mindset coach and my
whole performance staff, they really helped me switch that narrative
as well, and see well you actually have an opportunity
to go to the Olympic Games, you know, so we
have to do everything we.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Can to see those opportunities.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So this whole, I guess past year there's been a
lot of you know, changing the narrative to see the
positive and seize the opportunities. And and you know, those hurdles,
they make you stronger, a lot of flatwater, you know
that that's great for our sprint and our starting sprint,
and that's something that definitely helped me.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
At the Olympic Games.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I had the fastest start out of everyone, So I
think I was, you know, racing to do my best,
and that was still my strategy at the Olympics, you know,
race at your potential. But for that race and Prague
and then afterwards for the Olympic Games, it was, you know,
race to win and race to do your best. And
it didn't feel irrational, like it felt very rational, you know,
(25:19):
to dream that big and to go for it in
that sense. So yeah, I think a lot of mindset
coaching and positive reinforcement and you know, changing the narrative
and seizing the opportunities. I really see this past journey
as like a story of overcoming the noise, the self
doubt and really seizing the opportunity and being so driven
(25:40):
that nothing can get in your way.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah. I find that so fascinating because there's so many
different ways to look at a situation. And from the outside,
when you won, it seemed like the most perfect. It
seems like everything had been logically leading up to that moment.
But I can imagine there are many times throughout the
process where it feels like there are things completely against you.
(26:06):
When you think back to the race, now, what do
you you see, Like, what's the what's the moment.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
In the race.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I'm sure everybody here has watched the race, maybe multiple times.
What's the moment in the race that is the most
vivid to you when you think about it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I actually had to rewatch the race a few times
because it kind of all feels like a blur, even
though it was four days of racing, so it's a
lot of days of racing, a lot of races, and
yet it kind of just all feels like this one race,
and I think the moment that really sticks out to me.
I guess they're true, the one that I feel most
(26:45):
vividly that I you know, remembered that I was in
the moment was before the final, and I had a
moment with my coach, who he's very again process driven
and come and I think that's exactly what you need
for the Olympic Games, you know, really centers down and
focuses on our little cues, our little protocols, what we
have to do. But right before the final, he was
(27:08):
broke character and he was like we made it, like
go out and enjoy it, you know. And I think
that kind of not unsettled me, but brought me out
of that process and really made me be in the moment.
And when I walked up with my kayak, everyone was
getting their kayaks held by the volunteers, but I would
always carry mine and I think it kind of just
(27:28):
helped me, like, you know, really get ready for the race.
And when we were on the ramp, there was a
French girl with me, so she really amped up the crowd.
You know, they were so excited to have her. But
when they called my name, they also really cheered for me.
And I knew my friends were in the crowd and
they would always play music and they played ulavou by
Abba and you know, you're kind.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Of like vibing to that show.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
But I think that's one of the moments that just
really sticks out to me because it was pure, like
I think, enjoyment, like I really felt I'm meant to
be here, you know, like I made for this moment,
Whereas when I was watching the slalom, I really feel
like being alone in those blocks with everyone watching you,
waiting the countdown and then having that bit of stretch
of water to get into.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Your race would have really freaked me out.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And here I see like this kite Cross moment, and
I was so calm, so ready, so excited, and I
really do think that, you know, I realized that I've
always been made for kaya cross as opposed to slalom,
and my success in slalom was kind of because of
that environment, not being able to ever make it, not
being able to put the perfect rundown, and then being
in this Kita Cross environment, I feel like I really
(28:37):
thrived and was able to you know, express myself and
achieve those results. So sometimes that change of environment, you know,
really helps. But yeah, so there's that moment on the ramp,
and then there's also the last upstream, which for me
in the final kind of defines my whole Olympic campaign,
and that's being leading but not even thinking I'm gonna win,
(28:58):
like really just leading and focusing on the next gates.
And then in the last upstream, knowing that Kimberly Woods
from gb was behind me and that she'd go to
attack me because she's one of the strongest paddlers, and
she tries to attack and overtake me in the last
up but I do I think what my dad calls
the up of the century, you know, And I managed
(29:19):
to get in and out the sort of technique that
you practice in training that's really hard to execute in
a race, and that's really hard to execute after six
rounds of racing when you're really tired. And for me,
that sort of I guess really summarizes and beautifully wraps
up my Olympic campaign of being so focused and being
able to pull out my potential when it mattered, and
(29:40):
the finish line isn't something that I remember as deeply.
I think that was a state of shock, pure shock.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I think I nearly passed out.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
After the break. I asked now Amy whether she's superstitious
and how she mentally prepares for a big competition like
the Olympic Games.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Are you superstitious?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Like, is there anything like just before you started or
even during the race, is there anything that happens you're like, Oh,
if this happens, it's a sign that blah, or I
have to be wearing this thing. Like do you have
kind of something that you have a superstition around.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I'm definitely superstitious.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And bringing it back to the sports psychologists who really
tried to remove my high level of how superstitious I was,
and to you know, I had this thing before the Games.
I was like, I can't wear my mouthguard. Every time
I wear my mouthguard, I lose the race. And he's like,
I don't think it's the mouthguard. I'm sure you'd rather
keep your teeth and wear the mouthguard. And so, you know,
(30:48):
there was elements like that where it kind of got
a bit too carried away. But I'm definitely superstitious, and
I take the signs. I take all the little, you know, cues,
you know, I have the im app on my phone,
the affirmations up and things like that, and I take
those cues to you know, boost me. But I definitely
do like wearing the same clothes if I have a
(31:08):
good run and I would always wear I was wearing
my long sleeve CAG and you know, I got through
the first day, I got through the second day, got
through the third day, and on the fourth day was
really hot and I was like, oh, do I wear
my long sleeve CAG and sweat and be uncomfortable and
be way too hot but you know it's brought me
good luck? Or do I change for a short sleeve
(31:28):
And you know, there was a twenty minute thought process
that went into that, and then I wore the short sleeve.
I was like, I'm still going to do well even
if I were in a short sleeve. And then there's
another level and everyone's going to think I'm absolutely crazy.
But in twenty twenty two, there was this woman who
stopped me at the World Championships and she gave me
like this little this little rock and it had this
(31:51):
fox drawn onto it. And I was at a really
I think frustrating point in my career and felt very
nervous for those World Championships. I really wanted to make
the final and I felt like I needed like an
extra push, and so I put the rock in my
sports rock and I made the final, and I was like, wow,
you know.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
This rock has super Woman is amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Anyway, I care for that rock and I had it
with me in Prague and I wore it in Prague
and it had, like I said, the little Fox on it.
And that day when I qualified, my Grandpa Fox he
passed away that evening, so it was I knew he
was sick, and it kind of you know, carried me through,
but he found out just in time that I qualified.
(32:32):
So that was, you know, a really moving but hard
thing to process after having such a huge high and
then being hit by such a low. So when it
came to Paris and Jess told this story as well,
but there's a little memorial and you can collect these
little rocks. So because my rock of my Fox had
such a huge significance to me, I also collected one
(32:56):
from the memorial for my other grandpa that had also
passed away.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
So I did the.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Final with my true little rocks and my sports rat
and when I was getting ready for the quarterfinal on
the final day, I realized I didn't put them in.
So I went back running to the change room and
my coat was like, why are you running?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
What did you forget? And I didn't want to yell out,
you know, my little rocks idiot.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, so I had my little rocks, had the mouthguard
which didn't bring any bad luck, and I had a
different short sleeve. So superstitious, but also you know, working
on not being reliant on.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Like the rocks.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think cancel out the mouthguard. I think we all
know that logically, rocks cancel out mauth. God. There's something
called gold medal syndrome, and it's the idea. It doesn't
just apply to w Olympians, but it's it's kind of
a phenomenon just in life. But it has been born
out of the idea that once you win a gold medal,
(33:50):
there can be a bit of a dip, like people
can experience depression and anxiety and a bit of a
funny feeling around loss of purpose. And it's probably the
transition from such a high high and being so driven
towards a single goal and then achieving that and then
feeling a bit empty. How has it been since the Games?
(34:15):
Have you had any of that kind of whiplash from
experiencing such an intense high.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, I had heard about it and I was like, oh,
that's definitely not going to affect me. Because I'm just
so happy and internally satisfied and nothing can bring me
down from achieving, you know, such a huge, huge goal
that's kind of indescribable. But I think, you know, I've
experienced it to an extent. I think it's it's for me.
(34:43):
It's more so been. You know, you you have the
two most intense weeks of your life. Everything's new, everything's exciting.
You have no time to process. Like I said before,
it's like every day is huge, and you know, I
wrote in my journal every single day to kind of,
you know, help on that processing side, and to also
remember everything, because otherwise it's all a blur and you
(35:03):
forget all these incredible things that you did or things
that happened. But then when I got home on that charter,
I think think that was the first time I could
really like whoa, you know, everything hits you and you
finally have time to think about everything that you just experienced.
And something I am really grateful for was that my
(35:23):
partner was there, and because it's really and also my
family obviously, but it's really hard to describe how that
experience changes you. And so when you have people that
are there and experience it firsthand with you, especially my
family and my partner. I think it just makes it
so much easier. Otherwise you can't. You go home and
you're like it changed me, but you can't you know, describe,
and you know that they don't know what you experienced.
(35:44):
So that definitely helped. And then I think, yeah, it
was a lot to deal with, you know, the media,
the constant like everyone I guess wanning a piece of you.
But then also the quiet time and seeing that there
are other gold medalists that are doing this, this, this,
and oh should I be doing that or you know.
But I think for me, something that's really helped me
(36:06):
has been having this level of I guess, maturity and
experienerience before winning gold. I like I said, my identity
wasn't just an athlete. So this gold medal isn't like
suddenly my life is amazing. It's this huge bonus, but
it's not. I feel like I'm equipped to say not
to a lot of things, or to you know, give
a perspective on a lot of things. But yeah, I
(36:28):
think the biggest thing has been that's kind of given
me a lot of anxiety has been the amount of
messages I've received because it's quite overwhelming and it's amazing,
but you can't reply to all of them, and there
are a lot of people you don't reply to, and
then you know they say, oh, you know I followed
you before this, and now you've just forgotten me, or
like friends that you don't reply to, and then you
(36:50):
just feel like a bad friend because you never got
to message. So there's a lot of that that I
think has been causing more anxiety than before. But otherwise
I think, you know, for me, it's just the internal
satisfaction of like having achieved something I never thought i'd
achieve and having you know, proven to myself that I
(37:10):
have what it takes to be remarkable and to achieve
greatness and to you know, when I put my mind
to something what it's incredible I can achieve essentially, so
that kind of out trumps everything. But then you know
there's still the oh, like they're more interested in Jess
and they're interested in me, or.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I'm still the younger sister.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Or you'll get media that you know, bring you over
to do an interview after they finished with one gold
medalist and they're like, oh, we'll just wait for your
sister and you're like, okay, but I'm here.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Do you want me? Or should I move on?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
You know?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
So there's that as well, when.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
The gold comes all this media attention and as you say,
social media, everyone's messaging you, commenting. There's just a whole
lot of attention, and I'm always interested in with that
your story gets covered in a whole lot of different ways.
(38:04):
And as you say, the fact that you know you
might still be described as Jess's sister can be incredibly infuriating,
because if you're a gold medalist in your own right,
is there anything else through the process of being in
the media and on social media that you've found has hurt?
(38:27):
Like I think what I find interesting is that when you're,
you know, a media golden girl from the outside, you
see that attention as purely positive and exciting and you
must be on top of the world, but it must
also be weird because it's about you. And has there
been anything that you've been a bit that you bristle
at or you're a bit uncomfortable with?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Not really, I always try to like not be controversial,
and so I think that's helped me a lot. But
then there's that element now where I'm like but I
do want to speak up about some things. But there's
my you know, the inner me that's like, oh no,
you'll go against you know, all your values and this
is this. So I think I haven't given the media
anything to like like and when I see stuff like
(39:11):
or be the next dress Fox or Jess Fox and
her sister or you know some one. The other day
I did see like a really there was a podcast
on Jess and it's like Jess Fox.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
They talk and they're like, oh, and your sister she
also won.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
And they never like name my name and things like that,
And for me, I do like I brush past that,
but you know, it does bite me sometimes. But I
also think, you know, because my name is quite difficult
to pronounce. Sometimes I'm like, it's just the name. They
just don't know how to Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
By the way, is there a French way to say it? Yeah?
How do you say it in a pretty way.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
In a nice way. The way it's meant to be
said is nu And all. What I don't understand is
my dad's English. So I don't know how he never
thought that in English, you know, the name doesn't exist
or it sounds wrong.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
But he also loved it.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
After the break, I ask Naomi about failure, and she
gives me one of the most profound answers I've heard
from a guest about how to conceptualize failure. I'm obsessed
with the idea of failure and what we learn from it,
and how often failure teaches us a lot more than
(40:22):
success does. Is there a failure that sticks out to
you as something that really changed the course of your
life and actually taught you a huge lesson. I think
there's not like one race where I think it was
a huge fail But I think where I had the most,
(40:47):
where I struggled the most with the idea of failure
was definitely in September when.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I had to give up my World Championships, because it
was kind of it was the time and the place
where I made that campaign public that I was going
for that one of three Olympic spots and no one
else had really, you know, put that forward. I think
I was used to doing three categories, and when you
do two categories and you miss one race, you've got
(41:12):
the other category, and then you miss that race and
you've got the other category. So it's like, you know,
you feel safe with the armor of three categories and
three opportunities, and this was the first time I was
fully putting myself into Kia Cross, and there was this
huge fear of failure of losing my World Championships and
then missing the quota and then I would have been
left with nothing, and then the next World Championships was
(41:32):
two years away. So for me that the idea of
just doing that was a big fear of failure and
embarrassment as well, like, oh, how embarrassing you know she
publicly went for that quota and didn't do the world
and now she missed, whereas you know, I didn't do that,
did the world and I made it. So there was
a big battle with failure. But I think, you know,
I really worked on the mindset of like, true failure
(41:56):
isn't missing that quota and missing the target, it's never
taking the shot to do it. And that really helped
me really commit to that goal and not be afraid
of missing the target and not getting the quota. But
there was, yeah, definitely a deep battle with that idea
and fear of failure of you know, not making the
Olympics and missing out and it would have been so
(42:18):
public and I would have, you know, wasted so much
of my career and my world championships and things like that.
But yeah, I really was at peace with that, and
I knew that so much good would come from really
committing one hundred percent to that Olympic qualification. And when
it came to the night before, I was so proud
(42:39):
of myself, I think, for having committed so much and
being so you know, committed to that goal but not
half hearted about it, like, oh, yeah, well if I miss,
I didn't fully commit and I still have canoe and kayak,
and yeah I won't get to the Games, but not
everyone gets to the games. You know. I was so
committed to that goal and I had nothing to lose,
And yeah, I knew that so much good would come
(43:00):
from that process of accepting that I might miss, but
that it wouldn't be a failure because there would be
so much growth that came from having an Olympic opportunity
and doing everything to qualify for that.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, you forget from the outside about all those tiny
decisions that you actually had to sacrifice things and give
things up and be incredibly intentional in order to achieve something.
When you think about the rest of your life, what
is it that you still want in order to have
(43:35):
lived a happy life. Like when you think about being
an old woman and looking back at a life that
you think is meaningful and happy, what do you think that.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Life looks like? It's funny.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I actually had this thought the other day well, as
soon as we finished the games, and it was like, gosh,
these are all memories. Now it's all done, and it's
all memories, and it does make it does.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
It's hard to visualize looking back and being like, oh, yeah,
I won gold forty years ago or something like that,
but I think, you know, I'm incredibly ambitious and driven
in different ways, and.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I've worked full time.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I've done an internship in Switzerland where I worked full time,
and that was also my first.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Glimpse of life outside of sport. That was four years ago.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
But it also made me realize how much I love
the sport and how much the sport is a part
of me. And so I do hope that I'll stay
connected to the sport in some way, and I think
that's definitely inevitable.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
The river has a way of, you.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Know, attaching itself to you and keeping you involved and
around it, and I think career wise, sporting wise, I
definitely won a World Championship medal and we have the
World Championships at home next year and that's definitely my
big target Olympics wise. You know, I think four years
is a long way away and I'm definitely at this
(44:53):
stage set on LA but I think, you know, backing
up isn't something I've thought of just yet.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
I do hope that I.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Can go in slalom as well and not just in
cai cross, so that will definitely be my target. But
then outside of the sport, there's so much that you know,
I'm excited by as well, career wise, getting back into consulting,
maybe working if I'm not competing in Brisbane and always
involved in sport or the Olympic committee in some way.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
That's something that really excites me.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
But I've worked already at the Olympics in a different
capacity as a commentator, and I think I definitely want
to stay involved in that way because at the end
of the day, I think, you know, I realized that
the Olympics is like the only place where I get
to feel such incredible emotions. It it's like a drug essentially.
You know, you want to be involved, even if you're
not an athlete. You want to be involved in those
(45:43):
key moments that bring everyone together and make you feel
that sense of purpose and passion and you know, feel
alive essentially. And then you know there's also the personal life.
You know, get married or have kids or who knows.
But I think, yeah, there's so much that I still
am yet to do. I realize I'm definitely in a
space right now where I'm saying yes to so many
(46:04):
new things and discovering new things. And yesterday I was
in China, for example, just got back last night, so
say yes to do a little race and discover China
as well, and being open to all those new opportunities
that come through, and not being tied down to a
job just yet because previously I've always had to work
(46:24):
part time and work full time when in Australia, part
time overseas, full time at home, and I'd say no
to so many things that would pop up because I
couldn't move that meeting or because I had to be
in the office. And so I'm also really enjoying this
freedom that I have right now of just seeing what
comes at me and being able to be free to.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Say yes to things as well.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
When you think about happiness, what are your biggest challenges
to it at the moment? Being where you are now,
you've achieved something that is just unthinkable and must be
you know, you must go to bed and be like,
I still cannot believe I did that. What day to
(47:07):
day challenges your happiness.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I think it's understanding that happiness is very fleeting as well,
and it's a work in progress, and it's you know,
like a little muscle that you have to work out
to ensure that it stays strong and that the baseline is,
you know, naturally pretty high. And I think I've done
a lot of work to make sure that that baseline
is naturally pretty high. And it starts with a lot
of you know, gratitude and reflection, and I think I
(47:33):
just see the little perks of life. And compared to
sometimes my teammates, I'm like, God, they're so moody, you know,
like enjoy it. We're here, Like you know, whether I
get my soic coffee in the morning and they've done
a really cute design, like you know, that still brings
me so much happiness as well. So it just because
I've achieved this huge goal, like my things that make
me happy. You haven't, you know, naturally gone up up
(47:55):
to a super high standard. I think I love I
travel so much that when I'm home, I love the
mundane and I love the routine. I love, you know,
seeing my dog, getting coffee with friends, doing a pilates
class and being able to do it the next week
on the same day. You know, that's stuff that I love.
And then when I get to travel, it's the excitement
of you know, going back overseas, traveling with my three
(48:18):
kayaks and hitting people in the airport. You know, it's
like there's there's joy in that. But you know, I think,
like I said, it's it's a muscle that I know
I need to exercise. And some days are really hard,
and some days you don't understand why you're You're moody
and it's not worth fighting, and it's okay. And sometimes,
you know, hormones come into play as well, and sometimes
(48:40):
the world just feels like it's crushing down. But it's
knowing that there's always something to look forward to. And
I do love, you know, goal setting. I've always loved
goal setting. I've always had something to look forward to,
and I think for me that's so important to always.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Have a little goal.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
And now that my big goal is completed, there is
a bit of you know, like, oh, now what like
at the end of finding Nemo, you know, like, yeah,
but I've still got things I'm really looking forward to,
like you know, trail running rays and going to Christmas
in France and going skiing, so things like that, and
(49:14):
then knowing the World Championships at home next year. But
I know that, you know, little goals definitely helped me,
you know, keep happy, stay positive, whether it's in the gym,
whether it's at home. Yeah, I think it's really a
muscle that you have to keep on working. But knowing
that life ebbs and flows, and there are some days
(49:35):
that will and definitely are very challenging. But sometimes, you know,
if I just hear that one song or get a
pretty latte design, my mood can shift as well. So yeah,
also having good people around you as well. Do you
see the sports psychologist? Is that a thing that you
do ongoing when you're an athlete or do you do
(49:55):
it just when you're competing?
Speaker 3 (49:59):
It tries to be ongoing. I've ghosted sometimes, Yeah, I
think we all.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, but I think I look back at the last
two years and compared to say a gym coach or
like a training coach, it is sometimes hard to feel
like you're making progress.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
It's really hard to see that tangible progress.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
You know, in the gym, I can hit a PB
in my weighted chin ups, you know, I can go
from forty to forty five, and I'm like, wow, I'm
making progress. I've got that tangible result. And then mentally,
sometimes it's really hard to see that you've made progress
because you might race on a bad day and everything
comes crashing down as well. So I think, you know,
(50:38):
I kind of always saw him because he's great to
have a chat to.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
It helps me voice things.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
But I did it also because I had to do it,
or because you know, he'd always be persistent and say
let's catch up. So and I enjoyed his company as well,
and I think that's made a big difference. It's having
that sort of relationship with a psychologist where it doesn't
feel clinical. It doesn't feel like every time you come
you have to talk about your performance strategy, but it
can be about you know, other things that might be
(51:04):
affecting your performance. So but now I look back and
I do think that there was such a huge improvement
in my mental skills, my capacity to deal with stress,
my capacity to you know, handle high pressure moments and
perform under pressure and perform when it mattered, and to
know that you know, I'd done the work and I
can deliver my best really when it counts, when everyone's watching,
(51:27):
when fifteen thousand people are watching, in the whole of
Australia is watching.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
And we always end the podcast with one question. I
think I know the answer, but right now, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm a bit jet lagged, I'm a bit tired, but
I'm definitely happy. I think, you know, like I said,
there's so much more to my life and my self
worth now than just my sport. And when you achieve
such a huge result like this and you've got that
good sense of balance and you've got you know, that
perspective and you seized all the opportunities, I think you
(51:58):
can only be so proud of what you've achieved. And
I think I'm lucky to be in a position now.
I'm meeting so many different people that you know, liked
the sport, watch the sport. That kind of really reminds
me of the Olympics and how they watched it and
that brings me so much happiness as well. And I'm
also just so happy to be back in Australia and
to enjoy you know, the summer that's coming up, and
(52:21):
to be out on the water again. So yeah, I
think generally I'm very happy. But you know, even after
the Olympic Games, there were moments that.
Speaker 3 (52:29):
I thought I'd be happy, but I was just exhausted.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
And I was really tired, and I think I realized, wow,
I'm not happy, But it doesn't mean that I won't
be happy once I've recovered, and once I've taken the
time to reflect and to stop and to celebrate and
to you know, process and recover. Really, so yeah, I
think I'm very proud of what I've achieved and grateful
(52:52):
for you know, the mindset. Grateful for the opportunity to
have been on the most successful Australian Olympic team, to
have shared it with my sister, with my mom, with
my dad, with my partner, and with everyone back home,
and to be able to yeah, enjoy that success but
also have things to look forward to inside an outside
of the sport.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Incredible. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you for everything you've shared. I really appreciate it,
and I really appreciate.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Your vulnerability and openness. It means a lot.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
So thank you so much to no.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
No Amy, no Amy Box, thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I want to say it in the French way, but
I can't. That's all we've got time for on this
special episode of But Are You Happy? I like to
joke that I over relate to a lot of my
guests when I actually do not have a lot of
relatability to them, in that I am not an Olympic athlete,
(53:55):
for example. But when I interviewed no Amy, I was
personally in the final weeks of finishing my first novel,
and I cannot tell you how much I loved the
way she spoke about process and trusting the process. I
feel like it's a phrase you hear so much from
successful people who have achieved something incredible, and I often
(54:18):
glaze over it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, trust the process, whatever.
But when I drilled down into what she meant and
what that looked like to her, I had a real
clarifying moment, and I spoke to her afterwards about the
way she journaled throughout the Olympics, and I asked her
questions about exactly how she did it, and she gave
(54:40):
me examples of how she would hype herself up. And
I started keeping a journal to keep me on track
and keep myself motivated, and it was absolutely transformative. It's
the single most embarrassing thing in the world. I hope
no one ever sees it, but I think it's a
practice that stops you from psyching yourself out. And in
(55:02):
so many moments in life, it's mindset and not ability
that's our greatest barrier, and that approach of really reminding
yourself what the facts are, what your goal is, can
be so powerful. The executive producer of But Are You Happy?
Is Naima Brown, and the producer is Tarlie Blackman. Audio
(55:26):
editing by Tom Lyon and I'm your host Claire Stevens.
Will be back in your ears soon
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, it's your host,
Claire Stevens, jumping into your ears to tell you why
this episode of But Are You Happy? Sounds a little
bit different. It's because we recorded it live at south
(00:36):
By Southwest, Sydney in October. I was joined by Olympic
gold medalist no Ami Fox, and I interviewed her in
front of a live audience. But I didn't want any
of you to miss out on hearing this episode, which
is why we've released it for you to listen to enjoy.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Welcome to But Are You Happy?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
The podcast that asked the questions you've always wanted to
know from the people who appear to have it all.
I'm your host, Claire Stevens, and I'm joined by Olympic
gold medalist and widely adored athlete no Amy Fox. Usually
we would get straight into the show, but I wanted
to give just a little explanation of what but Are
(01:17):
You Happy? Is about for anybody who is coming across
it for the first time. So it's not an original
idea to say that Culturally, we're sold a little bit
of a lie about happiness, that achievement brings it, that
being really, really ridiculously good looking might bring it, that
money might bring it, That finding your life's passion is
(01:38):
definitely going to bring it, that being famous or being
applauded or winning a gold medal might bring it, and
that if you strive and strive and do your best
and get the thing, then you will be able to
look around, it will be completely uncomplicated and you will
feel deliriously happy. But deep down we know that humans
(01:58):
are far more complicated than that. I think this lie
is pedled even further now that we live in this
image based culture and we're all absorbing the shiny parts
of other people's lives. Things like birthdays and wedding days
and travel and winning gold medals are reduced to two
dimensional images of smiling faces instead of being felt as
(02:19):
the really complex emotional experiences that they are. The problem
is that then our expectations get really unrealistic, and we
get to certain moments in our lives and we feel
like we're not feeling what we're meant to feel. So
on this show, I ask people like no Amy about
success and failure and vulnerability and jealousy and times the
(02:41):
world told her she'd be happy and she wasn't, And
together we unravel the illusion that anyone's emotional reality is uncomplicated.
So with that, no Amy, I want to start by
asking you whether you grew up in a happy household.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I feel like I've never been asked that question before,
but yes, definitely. I think like any childhood, there's ups
and downs. I think, you know, it wasn't always happy, happy, happy,
and I do think I definitely felt you know, sad
or angry or frustrated a lot of the time, especially
(03:21):
you know, growing up straight away with a sister that
just excelled in every single department.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
But overall, definitely a happy household.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I think, you know, I feel extremely lucky and grateful
to have been instilled really great values of you know,
hard work, discipline. Both my parents from the start. You know,
they didn't push kayaking onto us. I think they let
us discover all these different sports, but we also got
drilled into the lesson of getting back into the boat
or back on the horse when things didn't go well,
(03:50):
or finishing a term of dance even if I hated it.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So there was definitely you know a.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Lot of yeah, that sort of hard work, discipline, but
also so much enjoyment and you know, freedom growing up
in Australia.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
But I was born in France and I.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Moved to Australia at the age of two for the
Sydney two thousand Olympics. My parents were both involved in that,
and I think they just loved Australia, you know, the
freedom that lifestyle brought, how big and green the places were,
the fact that we could walk to school undisturbed and safely,
and so yeah, I think there was so much happiness
and that sort of childhood, but also going back to
(04:26):
France every year and being with my grandparents. But yeah,
I think, you know, it was also quite hard growing
up in Australia without extended family, and that's something that
you know, I reflect on now as I'm getting older
and maybe thinking about starting a family. But yeah, definitely
so much happiness and hard work, commitment, freedom of expression
and yeah, so it was a good, very lucky childhood.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Do you feel like France and Australia are culturally different
when it comes to happiness, Like when you spend time
in France versus when you spend time in Australia, do
you feel like there's a different ethos.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Towards that emotion a little bit. I think Australia's kind
of like you're doing great mentality. And I loved school
in Australia because I felt like I was doing a
great job. In France, I did a few terms and
they'd rip out my paper because I didn't write in
the right cursive handwriting, or I did a few spelling mistakes.
(05:26):
So also, you know, the schools, they were indoors and
we would do school from eight am until six pm
with a two.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Hour lunch break.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And then in Australia you do nine am until three
pm and you run home and then you can play
outside or do swimming, do kayaking, do running. So I think,
you know, today, I do think that life is kind
of easier in Australia.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think it's easy to be happier.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
There's a lot more like dialogue and open dialogue around
mental health and awareness there. In France, I think there's
still that sort of you know, work hard, be the
last one to leave the office, and a bit more
of like the yeah, I don't know. I think it's
much easier to express yourself freely and not feel as
judged maybe in Australia, know the French, they like to judge.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
So what was.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Your dynamic like with Jess when you were growing up,
like she's a couple of years older. Did you feel
I also have a sister Jess who It's funny your
sister Jess was topp to the state in a subject
and was ducks.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
So was my sister Jess.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So I feel like I understand a part of you,
a very small part of you, not the Olympic part.
But what was that dynamic like as you're growing up
and I guess your benchmark for success is just so
bizarrely just the outlier, Like what's that like?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah? I think growing up we were great companions, you know.
I think we traveled a lot with my parents that
were both involved in the sport, and my mum she
would just leave us two together by the river and
we occupy ourselves and I don't really.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Know what we did, but we always, you know, had
each other.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And I think my mum she was an only child,
and so she really wanted to make sure that we
were friends forever. And that's something that she's really been
aware of. Also my dad as well, he's in this picture.
But you know, I think being an only child, she
really wanted to make sure that we were together no
matter what. And that's something that's kind of been reinforced
(07:39):
as it got a little bit more competitive and with
only one spot at the Olympics. And that's also something
we're both very aware of. So our relationship is something
that is incredibly valuable to both of us, and we
both know that sport is kind of leading, but you know,
life is hopefully a very long journey that we can
share together. But growing up, I, as you know, the
(08:01):
younger sibling, I think I tried to, you know, steal
her clothes or things I still do now, but like,
you know, be a little bit, I don't know, try
to edge her on. And she was so and still
is like calm and just like the type of person
that when you realize you keep egging them on and
they don't give you anything, you just stop annoying them,
(08:22):
like come on.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I know.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Like, So we didn't fight really, like obviously there were
moments where you'd have, like, you know, a few arguments,
but I really think it was quite a chill childhood
and relationship even in high school because she's such a
chill person that eventually, I you know, like I just
gave up and started, you know, having a happy relationship
(08:46):
with her. And then yeah, then you know, I think
in high school she started to become really good at kayaking,
and she won the world championships and I was there,
and and then she did like HC topped the state
in what was it, PHP and then got a ninety
(09:07):
nine point one a task. I was like, oh god,
double world champion, senior world champion, nine nine point one
ATA great. I'm just gonna be the disappointment. There's no
I can't do better than that, you know. So I
think that period of my life, you know, when I
did the HC, I there was that like I need
to beat her in something, and I did in one
(09:28):
one self check, And yeah, I think there was always that,
you know, comparison, and even in sport, and then definitely
in sport, so we also nearly did the same degree,
and I'm glad there was like a difference there, but yeah,
there was a lot of comparison. And we all know
that comparison is the thief of joy, but it's also
(09:50):
inevitable and it's inescapable sometimes as well, so definitely hard
kind of having such a huge, you know, like benchmark,
but also being in the same industry. It's not like
I then went on to do medicine and taekwondo. You know,
I was in the same industry and also doing the
same sport. So it's yeah, an inevitable comparison. But also,
(10:12):
you know, Jess is so likable that I never felt
that sort of jealousy or envy, and she has always
been so supportive for my career and my goals. And
even though sometimes you're like, well, it's so degrading because
you're like, oh, good job, that's amazing, and it's nothing
compared to what you've achieved.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
But I'll never forget.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
We were at the New South Wales and Street of
Sports Awards and the person who spoke they said it
was for the world championship medalists and they said, you know,
you start out by being the best in your household,
you're the best in the street, and then in the
state and then in the country. And I looked to
my psychologist who was there with me, and I was.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Like, I'm still on level one.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, so you know I think, yeah, definitely growing up
with that sort of comparison was hard, but it was
also growing up with that benchmark of you know, success,
that benchmark of being able to compare myself every day
to the.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Best in the world. And while there were so many
traps and.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Demons that came with that, there was also so much
growth and good that came from that, and that helped me,
you know, get to where.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I am today.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It's something that I think you notice that I notice
it as a sibling, that the media kind of laughs about,
but I think that there can be some real pain
there when you feel.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Kind of overshadowed in your own family.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
But what I find really interesting I did a deep
dive after your win, and there's all this research about
younger siblings being, like in sport, being incredibly incredibly successful.
And when you think about it, in you know, there's
(11:52):
the Williams sisters, there's Kate and Bronte Campbell, there's something
about that younger sibling having to wait and having to
be patient that genuinely does result in a very spectacular
type of excellence. What do you think that is, like,
(12:13):
what is that mindset that clearly by waiting for your turn,
it actually makes you brilliant in a completely different way,
like like what do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I think it comes down to a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
For me, it was exactly that, you know, I've been
waiting for my moment for such a long time, and
part of me thought that I'd never get that moment,
I'd never get that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I'd always be the.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
One person in my family that wasn't an Olympian, that
never like made it. And so, you know, you get
the jokes like you said of oh my god, what's
it like being the only person that's never made it
to the Olympics in your family, and you're like, ah, great,
Like what do you think you know? Like so yeah, definitely,
you know you laugh it out. But I think it
(13:05):
was something I kind of came to terms with but
didn't didn't completely, you know, extinct wish the fire of
that dream of getting to the Olympics, but it was
always one spot. And when Kaye Cross came to the
Olympic program, it was finally an opportunity for me to
get a qualifying spot. And I think it was that
it was waiting for such a long time to get
(13:26):
that moment that when it came, I was like clinging
onto it, and I was like, I'm not going to
let this go easily. And I think, you know, in
addition to all of that, it's also the mindset of
I think, you know, not having your self worth and
your identity just tied up in the sport because otherwise
you're just completely and just constantly crushed because you have
(13:49):
an older sister that's always successful. So it's understanding that
there's more to life than just sport and trying to
develop yourself in different ways. And so I did two degrees,
did my undergrad then did a master's because in the
period of finishing my undergrad and my masters, I was like,
oh my god, I'm just an athlete. That's really scary,
and I don't know if I just want to be
just an athlete. And I learned that I actually am
(14:11):
more successful in my sport when I have that sense
of balance, you know, that sense of purpose that when
I go to work they think of me as such
a cool athlete, but then in the kayaking community, I'm
the one with the real girl, big job, you know.
So there was that sort of sense of balance and
purpose that came from that, and I think that really
fueled me. So yeah, when that opportunity came, it was
(14:33):
really like, finally my moment. I'm not going to let
this get away very easily. And I think in the games,
that sort of media attention and the expectations of oh,
you're going to be like your sister, You're going to win.
I think for me, I'd already done so much work
in you know, canceling out the expectations the noise, and
for me, I was so driven to like be here
(14:55):
and proud that I'd made it, that my goals and
like my own internal dialogue was out trumping like everything
in the media. So yeah, I think there was a
lot of mindset, mental prep that came with, you know,
kind of building that resilient mindset so to handle all
the expectations to know why I'm there, to know that
you know, I'm also I've had the hardest selection out
(15:18):
of pretty much any other athlete, so.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I'm worthy of being here.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I have what it takes to do well, and yeah,
I'm not going to let my moment, my turn, finally
go easily.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Do you feel like because you'd been exposed to what
success looked like in the lead up to that, like
once you qualify for the Games. Well, even before you
left Australia and you didn't know if you were going
to qualify, do you visualize, like, do you visualize that
moment of winning? Is that a thing?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, it's a thing, and it's something you don't really
talk about because you I don't know. I think I
was kind of embarrassed of telling people that I would
dream of winning the Olympics because it's such a hard
thing to do that. I really mentally prepared myself for
I guess disappointment as well, and I was okay with
the disappointment. But I had a really hard qualification race
(16:11):
in Prague, and in September we had to put in
a strategy in place to to really, you know, focus
on getting to the Olympics. And so for eight months,
visualization was a huge part of my strategy and I
would visualize that race, the rounds, and the finish line
of qualifying to the Olympic Games. And I feel like
I sound so wooy when I say this, but I
(16:31):
really feel like I manifested so much of that result,
even to the point that you know, I was thinking about,
you know, what's the worst case scenario of being up
against you know, who are the worst.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Athletes that would really destabilize me.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And then I ended up in that exact heat that
I was like, Okay, I think I'm really strong mentally.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I need to stop manifesting this.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
But so when I qualified, I really like wrote down
everything to make sure that it wasn't just luck and
you know manifestation. It was also you know, hard work
paying off at the right time, this incredible focus and resiliency,
and yeah, that carried me through to Paris, that sort
of same focus. And and there's a funny story. We
(17:13):
have like a track suit and then we have a
podium tracksuit. And when we were the week of the
competition and just was up first. I was a week later,
and the day before her race, we were neighbors, so
I went into her room and I saw that she
had her podium track suit hanging up so she could
see it every single day. And I was like, oh,
(17:33):
that's such a good idea.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
And then after she.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Won, I actually and when it was the day before
my race, I got my podium tracksuit out and I
tried it on and I hung it up and I
was like, you know, I just wanted to feel what
it was like wearing that. But there was a lot
of visualization about winning, mainly in Prague, and I think
that was my qualification race in June, and then for
(17:58):
the Olympics there wasn't I didn't visualize winning. I didn't
even visualize you know, the podium. I think I had
a completely different visualization process, and it was on the
actual process. You know. It was visualizing the crowd because
normally we compete maybe max. One thousand people are watching.
Here there was fifteen thousand people. The noise was something,
(18:19):
the adrenaline was something, so you know, visualizing this time,
not the heats. I didn't want to manifest being next
to some really tough people, but you know, the media
manifested Jess and I so.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
And yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So there was a different sort of visualization, but it
was definitely a key.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Part of the whole process.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
You say a lot that, especially like leading up to
the Olympics, you were process driven.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
What does that mean.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I think it's so easy to get carried away and
just think about the result. Especially in kyae cross and
ki cross, you have so many different rounds. It's not
like in sylom where you have one race and you've
got to deliver your perfect race.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
In kite cross, you.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Have the time trial, then you have round one, then
you have Heat one, and then you have the quarter final,
semi five, and final. So it's so easy to kind
of get carried away and think, Okay, if I get
top two, then I'm going to be in this and
then I might be up against this person, and then
all I need to do is beat that person and
then I'm in the final. So it's really easy to
get carried away, and also to think compared to slalom,
(19:24):
where you know, if your level is top ten, then
you should make the final and you can hope for
a top ten finish. In kaya cross, you can be
one of the best in the world and be knocked
out in the top thirty two. That's what happened to Jess,
and I think it was a testament to the level
of the women that were competing. It was an incredibly
hard field and so I was, you know, I had
(19:45):
made the Olympics. I didn't want to get carried away
by the expectation of winning, or there was an inherent
fear of being eliminated first. That was definitely there, but
I didn't want to, you know, be consumed by that.
So something that really helped me throughout the whole competition
was just I had, like, you know, my little journal
kind of like Nicola the high jumper, and always you know,
(20:08):
just focusing on the process, what I needed to to do,
how I felt, really reflecting on the facts. I think
it's so easily like you can just get carried away
by thinking of that, you know, the self doubt, the
imposter syndrome, the result. But you know, reminding myself of
my previous results that you know, I had, what it
I have, what it takes to be here, and really
(20:28):
doing that positive reinforcement to stay in the moment and
then focus on what I need to do before getting
on that ramp, and then what I need.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
To do up until the first gate.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So yeah, really staying in the moment and doing you know,
having little cues that kind of help you get in
that moment. But yeah, it's very easy to get carried
away and think of the result and the Olympics essentially
you see the one percent of the success. And it
was really important for me to be be prepared to
(20:59):
have a disappointment but also enjoy the whole Olympic Games experience.
There's so much more to the games than just that
end result and just the certificate you get that says
your place at the end of the the campaign. And
so because it was so hard for me to get there,
because I never thought I would make an Olympics, I
wanted my experience to be defined by more than.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Just my results.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So I signed up to all the activities. I you know,
did the opening ceremony, lived and breathed the magic of
the Olympics. When it was jess as race, I let
myself be carried away as a sister and as a
teammate and to you know, live the wins, not just
to step out. I didn't want to be too emotionally invested,
but you know, I ended up being very emotionally invested
(21:40):
and very drained and exhausted.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
But your batteries recharged quickly because I can imagine, like.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
You could obsess over I think.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That that idea of sticking with the facts is really
applicable to anyone because you can totally psych yourself out.
And I've listened to you talk about your sport and
the fact that in order like even in order to compete,
you sort of have to go over it, like it's
(22:11):
in Europe, and so you could psych yourself out and
be like, well, all these people have the course in
their backyard and I have to fly over here, Like
you could completely lose your mind, and clearly you don't.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Do you have a performance coach or a mindset coach?
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah? I had a sports psychologist that I've been working
with since I think it's been two years, and I think, yeah,
I think it's definitely easy to get psyched out. And
like you said about going overseas and people having a
course in their backyard. We actually had three months of
no water in Australia, so that was very hard. We
(22:51):
had a water quality issue at our only training center
at in Penrith. Green algae blue green algae not great,
our worst enemy, and so we after the selections in February,
we had no water for a whole month and that
was really hard because you start seeing people preparing doing
training camps in Prague, where the Olympic selection was. That
(23:13):
would kind of give me anxiety when I'd open my
phone and see people doing training camps there, or training
camps with other athletes as well. Like I just had
Jess and one other under twenty three guy who was
really great to train with, but other than that, there
really wasn't a level that would help me train for
the Olympic qualification race, and so that in itself was
(23:36):
easy to get psycked out on. And then we went
overseas in March to do a training camp with the
British girls and the French girls, which was great, but
then came back and no water until we left overseas,
so there were lots of little I guess hurdles that
we had to go over that definitely can make it
really hard to.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Swallow I guess.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
And then yeah, back in September as well, having to
give up my World championships to remain eligible to qualify
for the race in June. There was a very messy
period in September because the rules that were written there
were a lot of Yeah, it was basically a policy
that was very confusing for everyone and had a lot
(24:20):
of loopholes and traps, and I was a victim of
those loopholes and traps, and so that was a very
frustrating period. But then yeah, the mindset coach and my
whole performance staff, they really helped me switch that narrative
as well, and see well you actually have an opportunity
to go to the Olympic Games, you know, so we
have to do everything we.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Can to see those opportunities.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So this whole, I guess past year there's been a
lot of you know, changing the narrative to see the
positive and seize the opportunities. And and you know, those hurdles,
they make you stronger, a lot of flatwater, you know
that that's great for our sprint and our starting sprint,
and that's something that definitely helped me.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
At the Olympic Games.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I had the fastest start out of everyone, So I
think I was, you know, racing to do my best,
and that was still my strategy at the Olympics, you know,
race at your potential. But for that race and Prague
and then afterwards for the Olympic Games, it was, you know,
race to win and race to do your best. And
it didn't feel irrational, like it felt very rational, you know,
(25:19):
to dream that big and to go for it in
that sense. So yeah, I think a lot of mindset
coaching and positive reinforcement and you know, changing the narrative
and seizing the opportunities. I really see this past journey
as like a story of overcoming the noise, the self
doubt and really seizing the opportunity and being so driven
(25:40):
that nothing can get in your way.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah. I find that so fascinating because there's so many
different ways to look at a situation. And from the outside,
when you won, it seemed like the most perfect. It
seems like everything had been logically leading up to that moment.
But I can imagine there are many times throughout the
process where it feels like there are things completely against you.
(26:06):
When you think back to the race, now, what do
you you see, Like, what's the what's the moment.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
In the race.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I'm sure everybody here has watched the race, maybe multiple times.
What's the moment in the race that is the most
vivid to you when you think about it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I actually had to rewatch the race a few times
because it kind of all feels like a blur, even
though it was four days of racing, so it's a
lot of days of racing, a lot of races, and
yet it kind of just all feels like this one race,
and I think the moment that really sticks out to me.
I guess they're true, the one that I feel most
(26:45):
vividly that I you know, remembered that I was in
the moment was before the final, and I had a
moment with my coach, who he's very again process driven
and come and I think that's exactly what you need
for the Olympic Games, you know, really centers down and
focuses on our little cues, our little protocols, what we
have to do. But right before the final, he was
(27:08):
broke character and he was like we made it, like
go out and enjoy it, you know. And I think
that kind of not unsettled me, but brought me out
of that process and really made me be in the moment.
And when I walked up with my kayak, everyone was
getting their kayaks held by the volunteers, but I would
always carry mine and I think it kind of just
(27:28):
helped me, like, you know, really get ready for the race.
And when we were on the ramp, there was a
French girl with me, so she really amped up the crowd.
You know, they were so excited to have her. But
when they called my name, they also really cheered for me.
And I knew my friends were in the crowd and
they would always play music and they played ulavou by
Abba and you know, you're kind.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Of like vibing to that show.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
But I think that's one of the moments that just
really sticks out to me because it was pure, like
I think, enjoyment, like I really felt I'm meant to
be here, you know, like I made for this moment,
Whereas when I was watching the slalom, I really feel
like being alone in those blocks with everyone watching you,
waiting the countdown and then having that bit of stretch
of water to get into.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Your race would have really freaked me out.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And here I see like this kite Cross moment, and
I was so calm, so ready, so excited, and I
really do think that, you know, I realized that I've
always been made for kaya cross as opposed to slalom,
and my success in slalom was kind of because of
that environment, not being able to ever make it, not
being able to put the perfect rundown, and then being
in this Kita Cross environment, I feel like I really
(28:37):
thrived and was able to you know, express myself and
achieve those results. So sometimes that change of environment, you know,
really helps. But yeah, so there's that moment on the ramp,
and then there's also the last upstream, which for me
in the final kind of defines my whole Olympic campaign,
and that's being leading but not even thinking I'm gonna win,
(28:58):
like really just leading and focusing on the next gates.
And then in the last upstream, knowing that Kimberly Woods
from gb was behind me and that she'd go to
attack me because she's one of the strongest paddlers, and
she tries to attack and overtake me in the last
up but I do I think what my dad calls
the up of the century, you know, And I managed
(29:19):
to get in and out the sort of technique that
you practice in training that's really hard to execute in
a race, and that's really hard to execute after six
rounds of racing when you're really tired. And for me,
that sort of I guess really summarizes and beautifully wraps
up my Olympic campaign of being so focused and being
able to pull out my potential when it mattered, and
(29:40):
the finish line isn't something that I remember as deeply.
I think that was a state of shock, pure shock.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I think I nearly passed out.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
After the break. I asked now Amy whether she's superstitious
and how she mentally prepares for a big competition like
the Olympic Games.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Are you superstitious?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Like, is there anything like just before you started or
even during the race, is there anything that happens you're like, Oh,
if this happens, it's a sign that blah, or I
have to be wearing this thing. Like do you have
kind of something that you have a superstition around.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I'm definitely superstitious.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And bringing it back to the sports psychologists who really
tried to remove my high level of how superstitious I was,
and to you know, I had this thing before the Games.
I was like, I can't wear my mouthguard. Every time
I wear my mouthguard, I lose the race. And he's like,
I don't think it's the mouthguard. I'm sure you'd rather
keep your teeth and wear the mouthguard. And so, you know,
(30:48):
there was elements like that where it kind of got
a bit too carried away. But I'm definitely superstitious, and
I take the signs. I take all the little, you know, cues,
you know, I have the im app on my phone,
the affirmations up and things like that, and I take
those cues to you know, boost me. But I definitely
do like wearing the same clothes if I have a
(31:08):
good run and I would always wear I was wearing
my long sleeve CAG and you know, I got through
the first day, I got through the second day, got
through the third day, and on the fourth day was
really hot and I was like, oh, do I wear
my long sleeve CAG and sweat and be uncomfortable and
be way too hot but you know it's brought me
good luck? Or do I change for a short sleeve
(31:28):
And you know, there was a twenty minute thought process
that went into that, and then I wore the short sleeve.
I was like, I'm still going to do well even
if I were in a short sleeve. And then there's
another level and everyone's going to think I'm absolutely crazy.
But in twenty twenty two, there was this woman who
stopped me at the World Championships and she gave me
like this little this little rock and it had this
(31:51):
fox drawn onto it. And I was at a really
I think frustrating point in my career and felt very
nervous for those World Championships. I really wanted to make
the final and I felt like I needed like an
extra push, and so I put the rock in my
sports rock and I made the final, and I was like, wow,
you know.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
This rock has super Woman is amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Anyway, I care for that rock and I had it
with me in Prague and I wore it in Prague
and it had, like I said, the little Fox on it.
And that day when I qualified, my Grandpa Fox he
passed away that evening, so it was I knew he
was sick, and it kind of you know, carried me through,
but he found out just in time that I qualified.
(32:32):
So that was, you know, a really moving but hard
thing to process after having such a huge high and
then being hit by such a low. So when it
came to Paris and Jess told this story as well,
but there's a little memorial and you can collect these
little rocks. So because my rock of my Fox had
such a huge significance to me, I also collected one
(32:56):
from the memorial for my other grandpa that had also
passed away.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
So I did the.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Final with my true little rocks and my sports rat
and when I was getting ready for the quarterfinal on
the final day, I realized I didn't put them in.
So I went back running to the change room and
my coat was like, why are you running?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
What did you forget? And I didn't want to yell out,
you know, my little rocks idiot.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, so I had my little rocks, had the mouthguard
which didn't bring any bad luck, and I had a
different short sleeve. So superstitious, but also you know, working
on not being reliant on.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Like the rocks.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think cancel out the mouthguard. I think we all
know that logically, rocks cancel out mauth. God. There's something
called gold medal syndrome, and it's the idea. It doesn't
just apply to w Olympians, but it's it's kind of
a phenomenon just in life. But it has been born
out of the idea that once you win a gold medal,
(33:50):
there can be a bit of a dip, like people
can experience depression and anxiety and a bit of a
funny feeling around loss of purpose. And it's probably the
transition from such a high high and being so driven
towards a single goal and then achieving that and then
feeling a bit empty. How has it been since the Games?
(34:15):
Have you had any of that kind of whiplash from
experiencing such an intense high.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, I had heard about it and I was like, oh,
that's definitely not going to affect me. Because I'm just
so happy and internally satisfied and nothing can bring me
down from achieving, you know, such a huge, huge goal
that's kind of indescribable. But I think, you know, I've
experienced it to an extent. I think it's it's for me.
(34:43):
It's more so been. You know, you you have the
two most intense weeks of your life. Everything's new, everything's exciting.
You have no time to process. Like I said before,
it's like every day is huge, and you know, I
wrote in my journal every single day to kind of,
you know, help on that processing side, and to also
remember everything, because otherwise it's all a blur and you
(35:03):
forget all these incredible things that you did or things
that happened. But then when I got home on that charter,
I think think that was the first time I could
really like whoa, you know, everything hits you and you
finally have time to think about everything that you just experienced.
And something I am really grateful for was that my
(35:23):
partner was there, and because it's really and also my
family obviously, but it's really hard to describe how that
experience changes you. And so when you have people that
are there and experience it firsthand with you, especially my
family and my partner. I think it just makes it
so much easier. Otherwise you can't. You go home and
you're like it changed me, but you can't you know, describe,
and you know that they don't know what you experienced.
(35:44):
So that definitely helped. And then I think, yeah, it
was a lot to deal with, you know, the media,
the constant like everyone I guess wanning a piece of you.
But then also the quiet time and seeing that there
are other gold medalists that are doing this, this, this,
and oh should I be doing that or you know.
But I think for me, something that's really helped me
(36:06):
has been having this level of I guess, maturity and
experienerience before winning gold. I like I said, my identity
wasn't just an athlete. So this gold medal isn't like
suddenly my life is amazing. It's this huge bonus, but
it's not. I feel like I'm equipped to say not
to a lot of things, or to you know, give
a perspective on a lot of things. But yeah, I
(36:28):
think the biggest thing has been that's kind of given
me a lot of anxiety has been the amount of
messages I've received because it's quite overwhelming and it's amazing,
but you can't reply to all of them, and there
are a lot of people you don't reply to, and
then you know they say, oh, you know I followed
you before this, and now you've just forgotten me, or
like friends that you don't reply to, and then you
(36:50):
just feel like a bad friend because you never got
to message. So there's a lot of that that I
think has been causing more anxiety than before. But otherwise
I think, you know, for me, it's just the internal
satisfaction of like having achieved something I never thought i'd
achieve and having you know, proven to myself that I
(37:10):
have what it takes to be remarkable and to achieve
greatness and to you know, when I put my mind
to something what it's incredible I can achieve essentially, so
that kind of out trumps everything. But then you know
there's still the oh, like they're more interested in Jess
and they're interested in me, or.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I'm still the younger sister.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Or you'll get media that you know, bring you over
to do an interview after they finished with one gold
medalist and they're like, oh, we'll just wait for your
sister and you're like, okay, but I'm here.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Do you want me? Or should I move on?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
You know?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
So there's that as well, when.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
The gold comes all this media attention and as you say,
social media, everyone's messaging you, commenting. There's just a whole
lot of attention, and I'm always interested in with that
your story gets covered in a whole lot of different ways.
(38:04):
And as you say, the fact that you know you
might still be described as Jess's sister can be incredibly infuriating,
because if you're a gold medalist in your own right,
is there anything else through the process of being in
the media and on social media that you've found has hurt?
(38:27):
Like I think what I find interesting is that when you're,
you know, a media golden girl from the outside, you
see that attention as purely positive and exciting and you
must be on top of the world, but it must
also be weird because it's about you. And has there
been anything that you've been a bit that you bristle
at or you're a bit uncomfortable with?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Not really, I always try to like not be controversial,
and so I think that's helped me a lot. But
then there's that element now where I'm like but I
do want to speak up about some things. But there's
my you know, the inner me that's like, oh no,
you'll go against you know, all your values and this
is this. So I think I haven't given the media
anything to like like and when I see stuff like
(39:11):
or be the next dress Fox or Jess Fox and
her sister or you know some one. The other day
I did see like a really there was a podcast
on Jess and it's like Jess Fox.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
They talk and they're like, oh, and your sister she
also won.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
And they never like name my name and things like that,
And for me, I do like I brush past that,
but you know, it does bite me sometimes. But I
also think, you know, because my name is quite difficult
to pronounce. Sometimes I'm like, it's just the name. They
just don't know how to Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
By the way, is there a French way to say it? Yeah?
How do you say it in a pretty way.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
In a nice way. The way it's meant to be
said is nu And all. What I don't understand is
my dad's English. So I don't know how he never
thought that in English, you know, the name doesn't exist
or it sounds wrong.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
But he also loved it.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
After the break, I ask Naomi about failure, and she
gives me one of the most profound answers I've heard
from a guest about how to conceptualize failure. I'm obsessed
with the idea of failure and what we learn from it,
and how often failure teaches us a lot more than
(40:22):
success does. Is there a failure that sticks out to
you as something that really changed the course of your
life and actually taught you a huge lesson. I think
there's not like one race where I think it was
a huge fail But I think where I had the most,
(40:47):
where I struggled the most with the idea of failure
was definitely in September when.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I had to give up my World Championships, because it
was kind of it was the time and the place
where I made that campaign public that I was going
for that one of three Olympic spots and no one
else had really, you know, put that forward. I think
I was used to doing three categories, and when you
do two categories and you miss one race, you've got
(41:12):
the other category, and then you miss that race and
you've got the other category. So it's like, you know,
you feel safe with the armor of three categories and
three opportunities, and this was the first time I was
fully putting myself into Kia Cross, and there was this
huge fear of failure of losing my World Championships and
then missing the quota and then I would have been
left with nothing, and then the next World Championships was
(41:32):
two years away. So for me that the idea of
just doing that was a big fear of failure and
embarrassment as well, like, oh, how embarrassing you know she
publicly went for that quota and didn't do the world
and now she missed, whereas you know, I didn't do that,
did the world and I made it. So there was
a big battle with failure. But I think, you know,
I really worked on the mindset of like, true failure
(41:56):
isn't missing that quota and missing the target, it's never
taking the shot to do it. And that really helped
me really commit to that goal and not be afraid
of missing the target and not getting the quota. But
there was, yeah, definitely a deep battle with that idea
and fear of failure of you know, not making the
Olympics and missing out and it would have been so
(42:18):
public and I would have, you know, wasted so much
of my career and my world championships and things like that.
But yeah, I really was at peace with that, and
I knew that so much good would come from really
committing one hundred percent to that Olympic qualification. And when
it came to the night before, I was so proud
(42:39):
of myself, I think, for having committed so much and
being so you know, committed to that goal but not
half hearted about it, like, oh, yeah, well if I miss,
I didn't fully commit and I still have canoe and kayak,
and yeah I won't get to the Games, but not
everyone gets to the games. You know. I was so
committed to that goal and I had nothing to lose,
And yeah, I knew that so much good would come
(43:00):
from that process of accepting that I might miss, but
that it wouldn't be a failure because there would be
so much growth that came from having an Olympic opportunity
and doing everything to qualify for that.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, you forget from the outside about all those tiny
decisions that you actually had to sacrifice things and give
things up and be incredibly intentional in order to achieve something.
When you think about the rest of your life, what
is it that you still want in order to have
(43:35):
lived a happy life. Like when you think about being
an old woman and looking back at a life that
you think is meaningful and happy, what do you think that.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Life looks like? It's funny.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I actually had this thought the other day well, as
soon as we finished the games, and it was like, gosh,
these are all memories. Now it's all done, and it's
all memories, and it does make it does.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
It's hard to visualize looking back and being like, oh, yeah,
I won gold forty years ago or something like that,
but I think, you know, I'm incredibly ambitious and driven
in different ways, and.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I've worked full time.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I've done an internship in Switzerland where I worked full time,
and that was also my first.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Glimpse of life outside of sport. That was four years ago.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
But it also made me realize how much I love
the sport and how much the sport is a part
of me. And so I do hope that I'll stay
connected to the sport in some way, and I think
that's definitely inevitable.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
The river has a way of, you.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Know, attaching itself to you and keeping you involved and
around it, and I think career wise, sporting wise, I
definitely won a World Championship medal and we have the
World Championships at home next year and that's definitely my
big target Olympics wise. You know, I think four years
is a long way away and I'm definitely at this
(44:53):
stage set on LA but I think, you know, backing
up isn't something I've thought of just yet.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
I do hope that I.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Can go in slalom as well and not just in
cai cross, so that will definitely be my target. But
then outside of the sport, there's so much that you know,
I'm excited by as well, career wise, getting back into consulting,
maybe working if I'm not competing in Brisbane and always
involved in sport or the Olympic committee in some way.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
That's something that really excites me.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
But I've worked already at the Olympics in a different
capacity as a commentator, and I think I definitely want
to stay involved in that way because at the end
of the day, I think, you know, I realized that
the Olympics is like the only place where I get
to feel such incredible emotions. It it's like a drug essentially.
You know, you want to be involved, even if you're
not an athlete. You want to be involved in those
(45:43):
key moments that bring everyone together and make you feel
that sense of purpose and passion and you know, feel
alive essentially. And then you know there's also the personal life.
You know, get married or have kids or who knows.
But I think, yeah, there's so much that I still
am yet to do. I realize I'm definitely in a
space right now where I'm saying yes to so many
(46:04):
new things and discovering new things. And yesterday I was
in China, for example, just got back last night, so
say yes to do a little race and discover China
as well, and being open to all those new opportunities
that come through, and not being tied down to a
job just yet because previously I've always had to work
(46:24):
part time and work full time when in Australia, part
time overseas, full time at home, and I'd say no
to so many things that would pop up because I
couldn't move that meeting or because I had to be
in the office. And so I'm also really enjoying this
freedom that I have right now of just seeing what
comes at me and being able to be free to.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Say yes to things as well.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
When you think about happiness, what are your biggest challenges
to it at the moment? Being where you are now,
you've achieved something that is just unthinkable and must be
you know, you must go to bed and be like,
I still cannot believe I did that. What day to
(47:07):
day challenges your happiness.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I think it's understanding that happiness is very fleeting as well,
and it's a work in progress, and it's you know,
like a little muscle that you have to work out
to ensure that it stays strong and that the baseline is,
you know, naturally pretty high. And I think I've done
a lot of work to make sure that that baseline
is naturally pretty high. And it starts with a lot
of you know, gratitude and reflection, and I think I
(47:33):
just see the little perks of life. And compared to
sometimes my teammates, I'm like, God, they're so moody, you know,
like enjoy it. We're here, Like you know, whether I
get my soic coffee in the morning and they've done
a really cute design, like you know, that still brings
me so much happiness as well. So it just because
I've achieved this huge goal, like my things that make
me happy. You haven't, you know, naturally gone up up
(47:55):
to a super high standard. I think I love I
travel so much that when I'm home, I love the
mundane and I love the routine. I love, you know,
seeing my dog, getting coffee with friends, doing a pilates
class and being able to do it the next week
on the same day. You know, that's stuff that I love.
And then when I get to travel, it's the excitement
of you know, going back overseas, traveling with my three
(48:18):
kayaks and hitting people in the airport. You know, it's
like there's there's joy in that. But you know, I think,
like I said, it's it's a muscle that I know
I need to exercise. And some days are really hard,
and some days you don't understand why you're You're moody
and it's not worth fighting, and it's okay. And sometimes,
you know, hormones come into play as well, and sometimes
(48:40):
the world just feels like it's crushing down. But it's
knowing that there's always something to look forward to. And
I do love, you know, goal setting. I've always loved
goal setting. I've always had something to look forward to,
and I think for me that's so important to always.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Have a little goal.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
And now that my big goal is completed, there is
a bit of you know, like, oh, now what like
at the end of finding Nemo, you know, like, yeah,
but I've still got things I'm really looking forward to,
like you know, trail running rays and going to Christmas
in France and going skiing, so things like that, and
(49:14):
then knowing the World Championships at home next year. But
I know that, you know, little goals definitely helped me,
you know, keep happy, stay positive, whether it's in the gym,
whether it's at home. Yeah, I think it's really a
muscle that you have to keep on working. But knowing
that life ebbs and flows, and there are some days
(49:35):
that will and definitely are very challenging. But sometimes, you know,
if I just hear that one song or get a
pretty latte design, my mood can shift as well. So yeah,
also having good people around you as well. Do you
see the sports psychologist? Is that a thing that you
do ongoing when you're an athlete or do you do
(49:55):
it just when you're competing?
Speaker 3 (49:59):
It tries to be ongoing. I've ghosted sometimes, Yeah, I
think we all.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, but I think I look back at the last
two years and compared to say a gym coach or
like a training coach, it is sometimes hard to feel
like you're making progress.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
It's really hard to see that tangible progress.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
You know, in the gym, I can hit a PB
in my weighted chin ups, you know, I can go
from forty to forty five, and I'm like, wow, I'm
making progress. I've got that tangible result. And then mentally,
sometimes it's really hard to see that you've made progress
because you might race on a bad day and everything
comes crashing down as well. So I think, you know,
(50:38):
I kind of always saw him because he's great to
have a chat to.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
It helps me voice things.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
But I did it also because I had to do it,
or because you know, he'd always be persistent and say
let's catch up. So and I enjoyed his company as well,
and I think that's made a big difference. It's having
that sort of relationship with a psychologist where it doesn't
feel clinical. It doesn't feel like every time you come
you have to talk about your performance strategy, but it
can be about you know, other things that might be
(51:04):
affecting your performance. So but now I look back and
I do think that there was such a huge improvement
in my mental skills, my capacity to deal with stress,
my capacity to you know, handle high pressure moments and
perform under pressure and perform when it mattered, and to
know that you know, I'd done the work and I
can deliver my best really when it counts, when everyone's watching,
(51:27):
when fifteen thousand people are watching, in the whole of
Australia is watching.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
And we always end the podcast with one question. I
think I know the answer, but right now, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm a bit jet lagged, I'm a bit tired, but
I'm definitely happy. I think, you know, like I said,
there's so much more to my life and my self
worth now than just my sport. And when you achieve
such a huge result like this and you've got that
good sense of balance and you've got you know, that
perspective and you seized all the opportunities, I think you
(51:58):
can only be so proud of what you've achieved. And
I think I'm lucky to be in a position now.
I'm meeting so many different people that you know, liked
the sport, watch the sport. That kind of really reminds
me of the Olympics and how they watched it and
that brings me so much happiness as well. And I'm
also just so happy to be back in Australia and
to enjoy you know, the summer that's coming up, and
(52:21):
to be out on the water again. So yeah, I
think generally I'm very happy. But you know, even after
the Olympic Games, there were moments that.
Speaker 3 (52:29):
I thought I'd be happy, but I was just exhausted.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
And I was really tired, and I think I realized, wow,
I'm not happy, But it doesn't mean that I won't
be happy once I've recovered, and once I've taken the
time to reflect and to stop and to celebrate and
to you know, process and recover. Really, so yeah, I
think I'm very proud of what I've achieved and grateful
(52:52):
for you know, the mindset. Grateful for the opportunity to
have been on the most successful Australian Olympic team, to
have shared it with my sister, with my mom, with
my dad, with my partner, and with everyone back home,
and to be able to yeah, enjoy that success but
also have things to look forward to inside an outside
of the sport.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Incredible. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you for everything you've shared. I really appreciate it,
and I really appreciate.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Your vulnerability and openness. It means a lot.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
So thank you so much to no.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
No Amy, no Amy Box, thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I want to say it in the French way, but
I can't. That's all we've got time for on this
special episode of But Are You Happy? I like to
joke that I over relate to a lot of my
guests when I actually do not have a lot of
relatability to them, in that I am not an Olympic athlete,
(53:55):
for example. But when I interviewed no Amy, I was
personally in the final weeks of finishing my first novel,
and I cannot tell you how much I loved the
way she spoke about process and trusting the process. I
feel like it's a phrase you hear so much from
successful people who have achieved something incredible, and I often
(54:18):
glaze over it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, trust the process, whatever.
But when I drilled down into what she meant and
what that looked like to her, I had a real
clarifying moment, and I spoke to her afterwards about the
way she journaled throughout the Olympics, and I asked her
questions about exactly how she did it, and she gave
(54:40):
me examples of how she would hype herself up. And
I started keeping a journal to keep me on track
and keep myself motivated, and it was absolutely transformative. It's
the single most embarrassing thing in the world. I hope
no one ever sees it, but I think it's a
practice that stops you from psyching yourself out. And in
(55:02):
so many moments in life, it's mindset and not ability
that's our greatest barrier, and that approach of really reminding
yourself what the facts are, what your goal is, can
be so powerful. The executive producer of But Are You Happy?
Is Naima Brown, and the producer is Tarlie Blackman. Audio
(55:26):
editing by Tom Lyon and I'm your host Claire Stevens.
Will be back in your ears soon
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