September 25, 2024 • 56 mins
If there’s one thing we’ve learned from this podcast so far, it’s that things aren’t meant to be perfect. But try telling that to a perfectionist.
Zoë Foster Blake, a self-described perfectionist, doesn’t always see it as a positive trait. In her conversation with Clare Stephens, she shares what she’s learned about embracing failure, recognising when she needs space to recharge, and the interviews and events she chooses not to do.
Is Zoë Foster Blake happy? You’ll have to listen to find out.
THE END BITS
- Zoë’s book Things Will Calm Down Soon is out 1 October (RRP 32.99, Atlantic Books Australia). You can find out more here.
GET IN TOUCH:
Send us a voice message or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au to share your feedback about the show or to suggest a guest.
CREDITS:
Host: Clare Stephens
Guest: Zoë Foster Blake
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Audio Producer: Scott Stronach
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
So you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.
I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. I
think sometimes the times when everything's meant to be perfect
and you feel like it built it up so much
in your mind and it fails, it's not a failure.
It's a lesson that's always meant to be.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast
that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire
Stevens and today's guest is one who has been at
the very top of my wish list since I first
had the idea for this show. In terms of people
with aspirational lives, Zoe Foster Blake is in a league
of her own. She's an author of fiction and nonfit
(01:10):
and children's books, a skincare founder and an entrepreneur, and
as a fixture of Australian media, she's known for her warm,
handid funny tone, one that is profoundly distinct to her.
I read Zoe's novels in my twenties. She's written a
lot of them, and they're the kinds of stories that
feel like a cozy, comfortable hug from a friend. She
(01:31):
then launched Go to Skincare, an iconic now international skincare company,
And while I don't know a lot about business and
stakes and shares, it's worth many, many, many ends of
million dollars. So obviously I have a million questions for her,
because she really does have the secret source. Unlucky for us,
(01:52):
Zoe is not into gatekeeping. She's one of those people
who really does believe that there's enough success for everyone,
and she likes to teach. Over the years, Zoe Foster
Blake has taught me about vitamin C and face oils
and hyaluronic acid, and I distinctly remember a mind blowing
makeup to you to talk where she put flush on
her nose and it really does brighten up your whole faith.
(02:14):
But in this interview, she taught me a lot more
about boundaries, about success, about drive, about creativity, and of
course about happiness. He's Zoey Foster Black. You in your
early career, like me, you worked for Mayor Friedman. Tell
me when you were in your early twenties working at
(02:37):
Cosmo and then harp As Bizarre. Who were you at
that stage in your life.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh, it was such a great time. I came in
at twenty three knowing nothing about beauty editing at all,
but I'd worked in kids' mags and music mags before then,
so I'd grow on my teath a little bit. But
I'd just come out of a big breakup, and I
really felt like it was my Carry Bradshaw moment because
I was suddenly in this glamorous job, at this glamorous building,
all of these glamorous women who I'd looked up to
(03:03):
for so long. Yes, pinched me moment, and so I
embraced it. I started dressing up for work, which you
had to any way, and my confidence really bloomed, and
I it was the first time I really felt like
part of a team and part of something bigger. And
I had not had a great relationship with other women
before that. I had a really good best female friend
(03:25):
at school, but I had a lot of male friends.
I just thought they were easier, less bullshit, and we
just would be idiots together. And there was more emphasis
on comedy with the boys. So it was the first
time I fell in love with women really and saw
them not as competitors or as boring and whatever I
thought of them during school, and just fell in love
with women and being part of something really fun.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
When you were a beauty editor, did you feel like
it was enough? Like when you were you were at
that stage in your career and you are getting all
these opportunities and you're writing about beauty and really making
a name for yourself. Were you more ambitious than that? Yes?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
And the proof came quickly because Mia quickly put me
in charge of lifestyle as well, and I started writing
dating columns. I had all of the time in the
world and all of the energy, and I just wanted
to do everything. Started a beauty blog, so I'd write
that in the mornings before work, jump on the bus,
drive in to going to work, then go to events afterwards.
And then I remember sort of feeling like I needed
(04:30):
to move on, like I've been at Cosmo for a
few years, and it was actually me who said, just
can you write a book or something like? Just stay here,
but do something else to keep you busy. And I'd
always thought I might write fiction. My father's an author,
and I thought beauty editing was just this mad world.
I couldn't believe it existed. I could get sent stuff
to play with and that's your job. That's actually your job,
and you get to take it home. So yeah, So
(04:52):
I was blogging, working full time, writing a column, and
writing a book and that was just enough.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And Maya approached you at one stage for the deputy
editor job or.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Was some kind of an emotion, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And you said no because it would involve people management
and leaning more into the business side. And you probably
don't know this, but Maya uses you as an example
in a lot of like mentoring conversations where she's like,
which path do you want to go down? She calls
it like the ladder or the lattice? Yeah, and she's
like she offers you as one option, and it's like, well,
(05:29):
no one's going to want to go down the other line.
Everyone just wants to be zoie. So she says, how
you said no to that because you didn't want to
do that.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
There was hard role, Yeah, and you would.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Have been sacrificing your creativity.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
How were you so self assured at that point to
say no?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Ubris. I really think it was Ubris because there is
a lot of creativity in being an editor or a
director of something, because you ultimately, now as a founder ancident,
you're setting the visionary tone, you can shape a magazine,
you're pulling a team together to create something incredible together.
But at that time I saw the man just as
a management role and a business role and a meetings
(06:08):
and only writing you did was the ace. I was like,
oh god, no, I'm a writer, and I am a writer.
Writing informs everything I do if you really drill down
on it. So I saw that pretty clearly, and it
probably was pretty offensive back then at like twenty six
to say oh thanks, I just knew that it. Yeah,
wouldn't be enough writing for me.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you good at saying no?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And also being an editor seemed really stressful? Yeah, a
lot of public facing stuff. Yeah, that scared this shit
out of me. Even as a bidiad you would have
to present to brand and it just ough heart.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Attacks, which is ironic now given what you do heart attacks.
But yeah, when you said no to that, is that
something you're good at saying no when things come up?
That just not yes, something that serves you. I love
no and how do you say no?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It took me a while to learn it, but it
is a real skill. And there are a few key
thinkers that I always look to, like Kevin Kelly and
Seth Godin, who I just firm believers in. You know
that old adage when you say no to then you're
saying yes to you. But it's really about the more
busy you get, having children, having a business, trying to
feed all these different rounds, you just have to be
a lot more careful about what you say yes to
(07:18):
and saying yes to a gig or a job or something.
It's never just that two hours on stage, as you know,
there's a lot of admin and emailing and sorting out
and contracts and travel and all of those things. And
it's a real privilege to be able to say no
to a lot of stuff now. But I have reached
that point because I've done the twenty years earlier of
(07:39):
building up that confidence but also that comfortable position to
be able to have my own business and writing books
and my family and that's all I do.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
How do you say no? Because I'm such a people plaser,
and it's probably one of my big issues is that.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Please yourself, please yourself at this time.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I know. But like if somebody comes to you and
you say no, and then they do that thing of
like coming back to you with more reasons why.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
You can't give you can't give an explanation.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So what's the one sentence though, of to Blake Way
to say that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
You just say thank you so much? Sounds great. I
can't be there, but I hope it goes really well
because if you say, oh, I can't do it that
week they were like, oh, what dates are you free?
Then never explain, just say it's a no, and with
kindness because you're like, thank you so much for thinking
of me. This is going to be a great event,
but it's not for me. And I think it's that
really firm boundary. It's not rude, it's just it's a no.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
And I guess that's the only way that you're able
to focus on the stuff, yeap, that really matters to
you and to do the really really big projects like
building a huge business.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And that is it. And I think also you get
to a point where like you either remember if you're
saying yes to someone that's beneficial to them, that's helping
their brand and their I'd rather help my brand and
my team. Yeah, and what I'm doing over here. So
that's the choice you make too, You're like, oh, I'm
back myself.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I have a theory that the world lies to us
a bit about happiness, and that often the moments that
we expect to be that happy is actually arn't. And
that's sort of what this podcast is about, that there
are these times where we have all these ideas about
how something should feel, and things might look really, really
really shiny from the outside, and that's not the reality.
(09:25):
Do you have an example of a time where externally
things looked great, but under the surface they weren't.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Probably, although a hand on heart, I'd try never to
be disingenious, and I'd rather omit than pretend. I don't
think it's helpful to portray that perfection. I know that's
obviously a lot of what social media is about, and
I know there are a lot of people in our
how a being very open about their vulnerabilities and their
(09:54):
mental health, and I think it's very helpful for a
lot of people to see that. I can honestly say
that that doesn't happen for me very often. There's certainly
been big pockets of my life where things were meant
to be fantastic and amazing. But that's always not really
about the outside observer going, hey, this looks perfect, but
me placing those expectations on it and going you should
(10:15):
be having the time of your life because I've worked
so hard to make it perfect. In my mind, I
am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.
I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. A
big one was the arrogance of taking a gap year
after year twelve and sort of telling everyone in my
small town I'm going in the big city. You know,
I need a break from study. Oh my god, and
(10:38):
taking a year off before going to UNI and moving
to Sydney in a gust of like speed. I was seventeen.
I had no money, nothing, nothing saved. I wasn't going
to Africa to help orphanages. I wasn't going to work
overseas or travel. I didn't have a job. I just
moved to Sydney in the sharehouse and I only had
my grandma and my sister in Sydney, and I had
the most miserable, broke, sad, pathetic year of my life.
(11:05):
And I would go home for birthdays or twenty first
or whatever and had to pretend that everything was going great.
For example, I was working in the dungeon of the
Intercontinental selling their loyalty card as a telemarketer for zero dollars,
and so I would tell everyone I was working at
the Intercontinental. I was also a nightpacker at Cold like
I was. I did a lot of terrible jobs. But
I now am so grateful for that year, because without
(11:28):
the depths of being super duper broke and having not
a friend and no clue and just being aimless, I
would never allow myself to feel like that again. I
just really realized that I need to be busy, I
need to have some purpose, I need to have friends,
and I need to have some money. M So, I
think that year and that was silly, yeah, and some
(11:49):
could say a waste of a year, but because I
was also so young, it didn't really matter. I still
started union everybody else. But yeah, I think sometimes the
times when everything's meant to be perfect and you feel
like you built it up so much in your mind
and it fails, it's not a failure, it's a lesson.
It's always meant to.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Be in your new novel. Things will calm down soon.
Something I really took away from it was the kind
of unrelenting pressure of being a founder and how you
have these achievements that I just cannot even imagine in
terms of what you've built, yet at the same time
(12:26):
you kind of can't sit there to take it in
because there's always a million other things you need to
be doing. Have you had that experience with business sometimes
that you look around and think, this is incredible, but
I'm not able to feel it.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And I think anyone who works in like im media
where you're aways thinking about the next show or the
next magazine or the next whatever where it's working, you
haven't many months ahead. Yeah, it's it's a real trap
because you never take a moment to stop and think
it's only happened a few times over the years, and
it's like it was seeing our products and Saphara in
the States, and it's always the Christmas party where I
(13:01):
stop and look around and go, oh my god, these people,
I love them, Look what they've done, Look what we've
created together, or feedback from customers where you know whether
it's an airport or an email, and it's just that
pure thank you. This has changed my skin. And I
think those little reminders. People might not give founders feedback
(13:21):
because they expect that they'll get it all the time,
But we really need it because it's a really kind
of busy and lonely position a lot of the time.
You're the director and you're meant to have all the
ideas and you have this eternal type of creativity and
excitement and you're public facing. But well, you do get
the good jobs thumbs ups, but you you yourself will
never actually take a moment to stop. Yeah, and you've
(13:44):
got to force yourself to do it. And I think
the Christmas party is always a good one for me.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Does your business like at that go to Christmas party?
When you see your products in Sephora that.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Was in the States? Yeah, we're in Meca.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah. When you have those moments, is it happiness that
you feel or is it something else? Like what does
business give you?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I think it might be a scene, but pride. I
feel proud. I feel proud that I didn't know anything
about business, and I didn't know anything about creating a
team in a workplace and a culture and satisfying a customer.
I had done it a little bit through my writing,
I guess, creating a project that people can hold in
their hands and enjoy. But it's pride and it's always
(14:30):
a bit of how did you get here? I wouldn't
say it's imposter syndrome. I don't I'm past that for that.
But it's pride and a little bit of fascination. Y's cow,
but smile.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Do you get the sense of like I'm leaving a
legacy and I've created something bigger than myself. There's some
like almost immortality there.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I wouldn't have said yes to that, because it feels
silly for a skincare brand to have a legacy. But
when I was buying my company back last year, this
huge maternal instinct came in and I just felt so
protective of what fills my cupboard. I would be bereft
if I had no more go to, let alone the
million of customers who love it and use it every
(15:12):
day and our team, and I just thought, this is
something that enhances people's lives that they really enjoy, and
it gives them a little moment without getting to this
is saving the earth. It's just a nice moment for
people that they like, and it filled a gap and
I'm proud of that. Don't fuck it up, don't ruin it.
It's really really hard to get a brand that people
(15:33):
resonate with. It's really hard to get that stickiness and
that loyalty in their community. How dare you ruin that?
Like you're so lucky? So yeah, I really just went
into full speed mode and six year and just went
at all costs. Yeah, this must keep going. We want
to be a household name in Australia. That's our goal.
Our big goal is to be a household name in Australia.
(15:55):
And we can do it. We've been in BIS for
ten years and I think we'll get there.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
After the break, Zoe and I talk about her strengths
and weaknesses as a business founder, and more about her
book and why she'd be happy to just sit and
write for the rest of our life. What do you
think is your biggest strength as a founder?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
I think creativity, but also coupled with risk. I'm not
averse to risk. I think you have to lean into
risk and be really okay with both outcomes, and they're
not always going to be great. You won't hear about
the bad outcomes. You'll only see the good ones, but
take the chance. And that's what I love about us
being privately owned again and small and nimble, is there
(16:49):
is no bureaucracy. We can do whatever we want, and
I think sometimes we forget that. And I think when
you're trying too hard to think about what the customer
is thinking, you're overthinking it and you need to go
back to what we're thinking. Because when I started the brand,
I had blinkers on. I didn't care about what every
other brand was doing. That was twelve years ago. Now
it's a really saturated landscape, and when you're in retail
like Mecca and you're up against these beautiful international brands,
(17:10):
you have to be a bit o mindful about what
you're up against and how you can stand out. So
I like that. I think within discipline there's freedom, and
I like those boundaries because it allows me to be
more creative and push against things a bit more.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I'm always reminding the team to be cheekier, be a
bit naughtier, where the Rogue Train like, we take beauty
not too seriously. It's allowed to be fun, and we
like to make things fun that have no right to be.
It's like on the back of the packaging and little
moments on the website, We're like, that's allowed. No one
said you can't have fun. So I think being cheeky
and taking risks is probably what I bring.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Is that similar to how you approach creativity in general,
like in terms of writing, in terms of every creative
project you've embarked on, do you kind of have that
cheekiness risk taking a bit of like a no fear Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
And it's funny because I don't think of myself as fearless.
I'm quite anxious person, but I think with creative projects,
I do feel pretty reckless, and I think that it's
a good place to be in. And maybe I wouldn't
have at the start with my earlier novels because I
really needed them to work so that would validate me
and get me to do another one. That would like, oh,
if that works and I get to do another one,
I still feel that if this works, I get to
(18:22):
do another one. Is kind of my barometer of success
as well as how it resonates with the reader. So
it's a funny thing because you sort of there's a
selfishness to writing a piece of work that you're really
happy with and you love because I guess human to
be writing for the reader, but I can't write for
the reader because I don't know what they want and
what they're thinking. So I have to try and assume
(18:43):
that what I like is good taste.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Arrogant, I guess. But I feel confident enough at forty
four in my taste and in my work to be
able to work on it to a point where I
feel like it's good enough to go out there and
I could edit for ten years. I really could, and
I could hone and hone and hone.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
But yeah, so I feel fearless.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
And I loved Things Will Come Down Soon because to
me it felt genuinely innovative in terms of it's not
a business book, but you can learn so much about
business in it. And I just thought that Venn diagram
a crossover of a founder who's an active founder, a
proven entrepreneur, and a fiction writer coming together to offer
something unique, something for everyone, hopefully. So yeah, I think
(19:24):
you got it back.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yourself, as somebody who knows absolutely nothing about business, reading
Things Will Come Down Soon was so fascinating and you
could really feel the stakes. I don't think I've ever
felt stakes like that because you don't really read books
about business and especially women in business. Yes, you so
(19:48):
rarely read those stories. Yet it feels very of the
moment because there are so many female entrepreneurs, there are
so many women building their own things. How did you decide?
Because as a reader, part of my fascination is trying
to work out parallels and who's who when looking at
(20:11):
all the characters. How did you creatively break your own
experience and writing something that was going to be very,
very distinct and not kind of make people look at
your life and one of the.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Oh, and they will, that's okay. The reason I love
fiction is very freeing and it's very liberating. And god,
I remember even back in the air Kiss's days talking
to me about it, going, oh, I might write like
it's a bit of a water biographic. Are you insane?
You're twenty five. You're going to burn all your bridges
way too early.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And my father as well, He's like, fiction is so
fun because you can mutate ten people into one to
get the perfect person with the perfect idiosyncrasies. And so
for me, each character works hard in this book to
pull the narrative through. There's no fat in there. They're
all there to support kids trajectory and to show the
(21:08):
different facets of her life and her personality. So I
can hand on heart say this is not my life
and these are not my people. But certainly there's aspects
of these people that I've known. And also I'm meant
to a lot of young founders, and I've heard their
horror stories, and so a lot of that have come in.
I didn't want to write my deal. My deal is
unique and circumstantial, and it's been written about, and I
(21:31):
wanted to create something new. And also every deal and
every business is so specifically impersonal, and it's a moment
in time, and you know, there's so many factors that
come into the success of a business. So I didn't
want to necessarily replicate my own story.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I think what makes the book so vivid, and you
become so in Kit's world because your creativity and marketing
brain is all over it. Because even the business that
Kit has, which is second day Hair, you can't help
but be like, can somebody invent that?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I know I'm thinking about it, genuinely.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I was like, did you get halfway through the book
and think, oh wait, maybe I should also invent the product.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, it's trademarked.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Is it actually your site?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Ma?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Me was like, maybe I should steal that.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I do not the first I mean, there are products
out there that exist like this, but it couldn't be skin. Yeah,
And I didn't want to do makeup hair. I'm obsessed
with hair and hair products, styling, and I know honestly
about six or seven styles who become good friends, who
all want to have their own brand or have started,
and so it made perfect sense. But the product itself
had to be something that doesn't exist really and could
(22:44):
be very sort to a lot of people. So of course,
you know, lived experience. I'm going to put a bit
of myself in there and what I would do if
I was a founder, But yeah, kid exists as my
parable to show everything I've learned. And after my dealer,
I honestly sat down and went, I feel the duty
of taking everything I've learned from these very expensive lawyers
and advisors to share that knowledge with people who like
(23:07):
me perhaps and they're creative and have no clue about
this stuff. And I ran my gamut for a year
and I'm like, Okay, here's what I learned guys quick.
I needed to get it all down.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Obviously, it's an amazing book and it's page turner, and
I read it so bloody quickly. But I also think
that there's something quite autruistic about it, because as a
woman who I can be kind of creative, the idea
of owning anything doesn't come naturally, and the idea of
(23:41):
trying to build something for yourself doesn't come naturally, and
so reading somebody's story where she does that, and then
all the nuances of how you set up the company
and what that then means down the line, and having
to have really difficult conversations. Even the role modeling of
(24:02):
the difficult conversations that King had was actually incredibly insightful.
Is there anyone who's going to read your book and
see themselves or be pissed off? No?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
No, it shouldn't feel like that sort of book where
like I'm scorched earth about anything. All of the stressing
kickeits last she brought on herself. Yeah, yeah, she shouldn't
do that. The lessons that I put in there were
kind of really dramatized in terms of like equity, giving
away too much equity to start, or selling to people
who didn't really have your best interests at heart. And
(24:40):
I think I got to these positions or pivotal moments
in my business career where I could have made those mistakes,
and so I put them in the story to factors
protection and go did maybe not do that? So that
was the real head fuck when we with Kit was like,
do I want to show her making all the wrong
decisions or do I want to show making the right decisions?
But how do we learn from that? So I had
(25:02):
to find that sweet spot where she falters but you know, anyway,
I won't spilet, but certainly she's learning as she goes,
which I did to How do you.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Go with being a perfectionist and being a writer.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I think it's a skill. I don't see it as
a negative until submission time, and that's when a good
editor and a good copy of art are really vital.
Because I over wrote by thirty thousand words, which is
classic me good problem problem, Well sort of, but then
you know, and then I remember shaving off like a
thousand and getting it back and going, guys, it's don't worry,
(25:37):
it's ready tend to print. Then they're like, you're cute,
and then I think we had to get rid of
at least another twenty thousand. So at that point, though,
I just realized I'm in the hands of professionals, and
I don't fight them on it. There's a few lines
I like, No, that's a really good line. Please come
and keep that. So yeah, I think you're going to
hand it over at one point, otherwise you'll just be
(25:57):
paralyzed forever.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Is the perfectionism paralyzing in the first instance, Like when
you sit down to write. You wrote a blog post
in twenty twenty two called the Writer who Doesn't isn't
something I valish and you wrote about how you wanted
to establish a writing habit.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And you'll notice they haven't. That was like the last blog.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Well you wrote that blog and now you've got an
you did did someone else? But I can imagine you've
got your business, you've got family, you've got all this
stuff going on. Sit down in front of your computer.
Does the perfectionism emerge?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Then? No, not till the end, And I'm so down
with the rewrite if it's not working. There are a
couple of camps of writers. There are the writers who
say it's very hard, and I sit down, I really
and I get typewriter dohea. I just once the idea
has marinated for long enough, it's all there and it's
just a case of getting it out. Hence they're thirty
(26:55):
thousand overright. So for me, my problem is more like,
don't overwrite. You're just wasting your time. This is not good.
But I like to explore every character and every subplot
to give more reflection back to my protagonist. And then
in the end, if we realize it don't need that,
that and I can go. And I also really love dialogue,
and dialogue is hard to keep brief because real life
(27:16):
conversations are super wordy, and I think you learn a
lot about characters and conversations with others. So I love dialogue.
But no, my perfectionism comes in the end. I love
the edit. Some people hate it. It is quite mathematical,
which is not my normal brain superpower. Because you've got
a hard copy, this soft copy, the line edit that
comments underline, like, it's a lot for my brain, But
(27:38):
I know we're shaving it off to get to the
good stuff underneath.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
When you look at all these different things you do,
where does your kind of a liveness come from? Is
it business or is it writing?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Writing is business? For me, so really go to for
a few reasons exists, but one of them was like,
I wanted to be a copywriter and I wasn't, so
I thought, oh, make a brand, then I get to
do my own ads. I get to do my own
marketing and copy. As well as the fact that that
sort of range for cutting out the beauty editor was
what I wanted to do by making it range that
anyone could pick up and understand instantly, and it was
(28:12):
just genuinely very useful and effective. But I love recommendations
and I love saving people time and money. I'm like, I
just use this one. And that's what I've done is
a beauty editor for ten years. But the writing, so
I still write all the copy on primary and secondary
vessels for the brand. Whatever you've hold in your hands,
I've written. I have an amazingly talented team who do
all the emails and social and everything. They're great at that.
(28:34):
But if you're holding it, I've written it because I
love that stuff, that little moment in the shower where
you get a little giggle. So I am a writer
no matter what I'm doing. Really, that's the essence of
it all, whether it's Instagram, I'm a writer. The picture
it's secondary. It's anything children's books, you know, even though
they are literally call picture books, I still want the
(28:55):
writing to really sing, and of course novels. So the
perfectionism it runs through everything.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
How do you go about because obviously when may I
offered you the deputy editor job, you weren't into people managing.
Have you had two people manage?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Not really? And this is one of the things I
put in things will come down soon, is that it's
often feels curati. Founders often hire junior to start off
with to help them with admin or menial tasks. But
as Kit does, she hires very seen you, very early on.
And I think that's a good move because I know
what I'm good at and it's not people management, and
(29:34):
it's not running in a team and logistics and that
sort of thing. So I have a CEO and a
CIMO and I have grown ups in there doing that.
And that was a big important step in our growth
about five years in where I'm like, there was ten
of us, say, doing everything and not all of it great,
and so we brought into grown ups, we always say,
and they're fantastic. So no, no, I think you can
(29:56):
know what you're good at and invest in what you're
not good at.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
How do you go being Zoe foster Blake the founder
and person working in this business and Zoe foster Blake
the brand Like, are you conscious when you come into
work that maybe you've got less of a margin of
error in terms of how you behave that day?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Totally? I think that's when you become a public figure
that's always in your mind anywhere you go and whatever
you do, particularly when your husband's a beacon for that stumes,
so you get used to being.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Watched.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I don't think my team do that. You know, we're
good people, we're all in it together. But I think
the public facing aspect of being a brand founder is
pretty highly scrutinized, particularly in beauty. Never used to be,
but it's become very studied.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And does that scare you? Does it give you anxiety?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah? Totally, And it's an ongoing learning curve for me.
I think a lot of it comes back to my
mental health at that point and how capable I am
of dealing this shit. So if I'm getting into trouble
online about something that we've done as a brand, if
I've not been sleeping if I'm super stressed and already pushed,
that affects me really a lot more, of course. But
(31:18):
if I'm in a good, clean state of mind and
I've been looking after myself, it's amazing the difference you
can do. So that will always happen, it's just how
I can react to it, and that's my goal in
terms of personal improvement as to not being so reactive
and recognizing at a moment in time my people pleasing
anxious side wants to fix it immediately, and I'm always
(31:39):
I want to write back and defend ourselves. That's my
first thing I'm going to do, and that's the first
thing you shouldn't do. It's never defend yourself. You know
people will be upset about things, and you have to
be respectful and also know what you know to be right.
So it's always going to be complicated that parasocial sort
of relationship, particularly if you feel like you're in trouble,
(32:00):
because I don't like feeling like I'm in trouble like
most people, particularly if you don't feel like you've done
the wrong thing.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
There are examples in the book where there will be
certain things going on online or even there's like you know,
tiny doses of cancel culture sprinkled throughout, which is so
clever because that is part of what it is to
be a founder in this.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Day and age.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I know that sometimes you'll read something about yourself and
you're like, Eh, whatever, I don't care. And then there
are things that really upset you, and sometimes you can't
even articulate why what hurts. In the book, there's certain
things you can see that really get under kit skin.
Are there things that get under your skin?
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I think it's assuming our intentions were other than what
they were. So for me, it's everything we do as
a brand is intended and designed and carefully calculated to
be joyful and educational and nurturing. That's what our company
does and that's why we put all this effort into
producing products and marketing them. So when people say that
(33:06):
you've done otherwise, it shouldn't get under my skin, but
it really does. Because one of my key areas to
work on is being defensive when I feel caught out
or when I'm being accused of something I don't think
I did. Ask my husband. That's fun. So, you know,
(33:26):
and there's a group of founders that I have that
when one of us are going through something, we'll all
check in and just say, hey, remember this is not real,
this is just work and it will pass, and all
of those wisdom advices that don't really help, but you've
got to say it so that you know that you're
not alone. So for me, it's just trying not to
(33:48):
be absorb them so easily.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
When people are talking about Zoe Foster Blake online, is
that you I heard a podcast recently where someone described
it as a shadow self, Like you're online person. The
person you are online is not actually who you are.
It's a shadow self, and if people are attacking that person,
you can differentiate because you go, that's not actually me,
that's some avatar image of me that they don't actually know.
(34:15):
Are you good at that? Or because you're so authentic
online and you've built your identity with authenticity, is it
easy to get it confused?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
It's fie, I think, because you're right, it is an avatar.
And I generally use social just for work now and
my cats because I don't feel inspired to share much
more of my life than that. I don't think I
need to, and that's why I write fiction so that
I can experiences that I have I can weave into
stories and that's the fun of it. I also don't
(34:47):
think I'm that interesting, so I don't know why I
would want to share anything more than I do. I
think we take it personally just because we're human beings, right,
and I don't want to ever misstep because it's not
worth the hassle. But I also am aware that it's
not a real world. You know, put you feet in
the grass and need a banana, Just go and be
(35:08):
back in the real world, play with the kids and
remember what's really happening. And it's funny because something will
blow up and you'll be so convinced that everyone's thinking
about or talking about it, and you'll talk to a
friend and they're like, what, Yeah, what do you trying
to do that? And I love those moments because I
was like, yes, notpe out of it, Okay, head out
of your ass and get back into nature or whatever's
going to help. So yeah, they come and go pretty quick.
(35:29):
I'm pretty good at just going that's not really real life.
That's not my real life. I'm at home in my
tractor pants with my kids making dinner, and that's a shining,
glimorous girl that someone's got an idea about and it's
two different things.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
After the break, Zoey talks about the moments where she
feels the happiest and why there are certain interviews she
doesn't want to do. Are you happiest when you're writing?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
I am really happy when I'm writing, but I'm like
a little squirrel who needs treats all the time. So
I can do deep writing for like maybe an or two,
I don't feel the same. Then I need something, maybe
it's a scroll, maybe it's an actual physical scroll. And
then by the end of the day I'm dying for
the gids to get home because I'm like, I need
(36:23):
to talk to someone and engage. So I love the balance,
and in fact, my perfect sort of day is a
bit of family, bit of social as in social interaction,
a bit of riding, and some nature. You know, family
time is beautiful and built in. I also really love
riding bikes with my family. I've really found that to
be a happy place because I can't relax, but that's
(36:45):
active relaxation for me. I cannot sit still. I don't
like not being productive. It's a problem I have so
being physically moving but in nature and relaxing with my
family just tick so many boxes.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
You strike me as someone who's somewhat introverted. Oh yes,
and yet your life is so public and there are
all sorts of aspects to what you do as a career,
that public facing requires some level of social energy. Even
(37:20):
as a beauty editor, went to like fancy events, and
now you'll be at the logies, You'll be at all
these very highly social situations. How do you find those?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
We don't get a mini at all. If you actually
think about it, we'd go to the logis and maybe, yeah,
that's it. Yeah, it does really exhaust me. And I
probably had a lot more energy for it when I
was in my twenties and thirties being beater and so on.
But now I really noticed that drain. It's only because
of thank you to social media, like the language around everything,
for me to understand that I'm a highly social, skilled
(37:56):
introvert and I can come in big and do the thing,
and I can be on stage and do a signing
and whatever and film things, and then I'm like shell,
Like a lot of us, we'd have to go home
and put myself clothed on and not talk to anybody.
What I realized is I got older, is just just
leaving time in between those things to regroup, because if
I don't look after myself, I'm no good to anybody.
(38:18):
So even with this book, to her, I was like,
I'm not going back to back events. I'd rather take
more time and give more, give a better version of
myself to people than be this tired, which he's not
stringing two words together. I don't know how like proper
successful famous people do it, like doing a full press
tour for like a month, or musical theater people on
(38:38):
stage every night. I just, yeah, I don't have it
in me at all.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I'm so fascinated about it. I've always said my worst
nightmare I think would be being in the Big Brother House.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I think about it all the time, or Survivor or alone.
I have a lot of shows I would never go
on because.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I'm like, oh my god, imagine having to be just on.
And then it's like I'm like, I'd probably come across
as quite cold, but it's not coldness.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
It's just tiredness, yes, and anxiety about what I'm going
to say. Did I say yeah, did I say the
wrong thing? I say too much?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
My god?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
So yeah, I am pretty soually anxious, even in my
own office with my team. I just, yeah, I'm a
bit of a goose actually at the part of it.
But I can do it good in short bests, and
I'm like, I just get that short burst out, I'll
be all right. Do you like interviews, Well, I used
to be on the other side of them, which is
probably a bit easier. I don't mind them if it's
about the work. No, I love I can go so
(39:31):
deep talking about creativity and marketing and ideas and writing.
I really love that stuff. I don't get asked it
very often, though, it's not usually the questions that people
want to.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, people are like, let me ask about the gossip
your career. It spans so many creative industries. And do
you worry in terms of looking at the future where
(40:00):
to put your energy and that it's going to be finite,
Like if you look at the next couple of decades,
does it feel like you you really have to intentionally
choose where to put your energy.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I guess you should, but I don't. I love the
surprise and delight of life, Like it could be that
my all, my husband's work could change big time at
any point. We could move and we could like anything
could happen. I also love that writing has no expiration
date and I can still be doing it when I'm
seventy five unless AI comes in and does a better
job of it. Nervous about that. So I feel like
(40:37):
I'm able to always have that work. Thankfully, I don't
need to be young or glamorous for it. I can
just always write. And same with running a business and
doing it well as long as I have the ideas.
And I do have so many ideas. It's not the
lack of ideas, it's the follow through and the execution
and which ones are actually worth backing is probably the
(40:57):
big question for us. So now I get excited about
what's next. You never know what could happen. I was
just like, oh, I've be doing my fifties sixties and
like who knows, who cares? Like just go for it,
Like could be writing for TV or I have no idea.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
When you think about your life, what do you think
is the thing that when you're an old woman, I'm
going to say like one hundred and twenty because that's
how old he's going to live too. What is it
when you look back on your life that will have
made you happy, Like when you really zoom out, what
(41:36):
is it that is the happiness?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
I think it's human connection. I put that to being
a good partner, being the kind of parent who doesn't
fuck up their kids too much. No, I'm going to
do it without knowing what I'm doing, but that legacy
of parenting well, which is a full time job now,
as we all know. My Mum's always like, God, your generation,
(41:59):
you really deep dive on this stuff too, And I'm like, yeah,
well and why. And the connections that I have with
friends and people in the world are really think that
human connection and community also that purpose. Someone asked me
that what do you think your purpose is? And it
is a great question, and I'm not still confident in
the answer, but I think it might be teaching, and
(42:20):
not teaching in terms of teaching, but teaching people how
to look after the skin, teaching people how to do
a business, teaching people how to all the romans and
writing relationships stuff I did, or even with the picture books,
teaching kids how to write funny stories. I don't know,
but vaguely I feel like that's sort of the thread
(42:41):
through all of them is just that and not because
I'm in the position of expertise, but just because I
also love the example of just being a rap from
the bush who's come in and with no clue and
accidentally done a good job of business. I think that's
something to be proud of, because I know a lot
of people put a lot more time and energy into
learning how to business and I somehow snuck through and
(43:05):
did it too.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Really, that's really interesting that idea of teaching, and I
do do you think that that is a thread through
your entire career because so many people I know who
love you. People have come in at different moments and like,
I've got a friend who went through a breakup and
you were her absolute All she talked about was how
(43:26):
you were her guru. And when I was pregnant, I
had all with pelvic pais, Oh my god, I'm so sorry,
and I went so deep. I'm like, like, what do
you do? Okay? Like, there are all these different avenues
where people connect to you, and I think it's because
you're very generous with what you share and how you
share it, and recommendations and being honest about the things
(43:51):
that maybe people aren't always honest about. It's like, especially
when it comes to something like business at the moment
like that, so many people are quite they're gay cape
gaykeepe the business information.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
It's weird, isn't that. There's a very specific character in
the book who is really generous, and she's got American
sensibility to business, which is very different to Australian, which is, oh,
I know a guy, I'll hook you up. I'll know
it is and often, unfortunately in Australia, particularly when I
was starting out, no one would share their chemist or
their factories or anything they're packaging people. Now, of course
(44:26):
you've got full service companies that will do that all
for you. It's changed so much. But I don't want
to be that guy. I want to be the guy
that helps everybody. There is enough pie for everybody, and
I think a greedy gatekeeping mindset it will only come
back to you. Generosity doesn't cost anything. You're helping so
many people. I get tear when people come up to
me and say, oh, I read Breakup Boss and then
(44:47):
I gave it to seven of my friends. It really
really helped, or thank you your face helped my explorer,
whatever it may be. Because I'm like I didn't intend
for that to be the outcome, but so that it did.
Or even like I took your restaurant recommendation with Queenstown,
I'm like, great, I saved you some time and you
had a good meal off that. I love that because
I wish for that. I just want the edit of life. Please?
(45:07):
Can I have the edit? What supplement do I take?
What's the meditation app that I should be using? What's
the book to read? Like clear the clutter and just
let me get to it.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And it's also a bit of a fast track to
human connection. I think it is that you're able to
like I went to read a book the other day
and I'm like, oh, yes, it's got recommended to me.
And I'm like, I saw it old Zoomy's Instagram.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
It's got recommended. What was it? Do you love it?
Speaker 2 (45:33):
It's the Taffy Book. Yeah. I was like, oh, I
loved her first book. I must read it. Yes, and
she's brill But it is that idea of having somebody
you can trust and you know their recommendations have served
you well in the past. You feel connected to them again.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's the hoobers because I'm like, who's to say my
taste is your taste. But it's not like I chose
that book out of like the usually prize when I'm like,
if you haven't read this, you do, it's amazing. But yeah,
I like the time saying aspect and it's really just
putting out what I want to get back, which is
now you recommend me something. You won't help each other out.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
What currently keeps you from happiness?
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Keeps me from happiness? I think it's usually sleep. I
think sleep. It's very well known for a lot of
people that sleep is my number one mental health kryptonite.
So I prioritize it it all costs, and if I've slept,
I can do anything. I haven't slept a monster, And
(46:32):
I've become very good at power napping to get back
on track, like to start the day again, to take
the nap to start fresh, which I think there's napping's
got a bad stigma, but a lot of writers nap.
It's better than their fourth coffee, or it's a twenty
minute meditation, or you're going to in d something. So
sleep is what keeps me from happiness. And probably fear
(46:53):
a little bit just what we're going back to before
about like putting things out into the world and hoping
that it hits and in the amount of times we
put up a new product or a launch or something,
and I'm waiting for the thing we did wrong. What's
going to blindside me here? Even with the book, I'm like, oh,
you know, have I offended someone? Or that world we
live in now where I'm on edge of that vigilance
(47:15):
of like what can they get me for here, which
is very telling, I think. So I'm always aware that
that's going to happen without trying to preempt or manifest it.
It's a fine line. Yeah, I think I'm happy to
take risks, but I'm also aware that it's not for everyone,
and that's okay. I don't want to be for everyone. No,
I think there's that saying that if you try and
(47:36):
be for everyone, you are by definition average. So definitely, yeah,
definitely just find your people and write for them.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
In terms of sleep, because I think maybe a lot
of people realize the importance of sleep when they have
a child for the first time and you're like, oh, yeah,
I thought i'd been strived before. No lack of sleep,
How does that manifest in terms of mental health?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I'm a bitch. I'm snappy with my children, my anxiety ramps.
I can't write. My dopamine hunting has increased one hundredfold
by food, by scrolling, by just silly tasks that don't
actually need doing. I just feel wayward. So I don't
have that focus and I really need that. And I think,
(48:21):
you know, I'm forty four, So perimonopause is a real thing.
The anxiety and the sleeplessness big thing. So I've I've
had my diagnostics and I've got something to help me
sleep now and it's medicinal CBD and fabulous high the
right and yeah, so I just needed to sort that out.
(48:42):
Like I said before, anything else would work because I
have this limit of three nights bad sleep, and yeah,
I will book a fucking hotel. Yeah, I need to sleep.
Something's got to give. So yeah, I've never got to
that stage, but that's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah, because one night you can one night adrenaline. Yeah,
two nights you feel terrible. Three nights I'm a rash.
I've lost all rationality. And then I actually start convincing
myself I don't need sleep. And that's when you know
you've gone nuts, is you're like sleep, who needs sleep?
And then you're like, I need that's very hard with
your child, It's very hard.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
And I had my anxiety only started when I had children.
I wouldn't have characterized myself as an anxious person prior
to that, but a baby who I had to keep
alive was a big deal and sleep was not great.
No bad cycle contributes.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
To it when you are tired, getting defensive, not being
your best self. Are there people around you? Because I
think sometimes in terms of our happiness, sometimes we're not
even the best person to know how to make ourselves happy.
Sometimes the people around us are way better at seeing
(49:50):
things objectively. Are there people who call you out and
pull you into line? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Well, my husband, he's a very lovely man, and it's
not his first instinct. He'll usually cop a few blows
before it'll be like, what's wrong with you? But I
would have already prefaced it. I'm like, I'm tired, I
didn't say the worst sleep last night? Why did the
garbage man came at five in the morning? La la la,
So I've already let everybody know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
he calls me and of course and my kids were
(50:17):
just looking heartbreaking, like what are you being mean, are
you being too snappy? That's horrible. So yeah, I know
when i'm it's a wake up in the morning feeling. Yeah,
I already know it's there. I tell myself, Oh, you're
being a bitch, like saw your shit, and it's twenty minutes.
I just need twenty minutes to just go and meditate
or something. Yeah, I'm such a better person, and I'm
(50:39):
really okay with asking for that now, Like even in
big family function moments where by law you're not allowed
to just excuse yourself to do anything. But I'm like, ah,
I don't like any of you for a minute. I'm
going to go just become a nicer person. Then we're
gonna have a great day.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I think maybe I need to do that. I need
to do that in a lot of social situations because
otherwise I push through and I'm like it's written all
over my face. Yes, everybody knows how I'm feeling. Yes,
I think I'm hiding it. Yeah, no, no, no, no, Right now,
you've got a new novel out. Things will calm down soon.
You've got a wildly successful business, are you happy.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah. To the point where when this podcast was pitched,
I was like, no, I can't do that. I am happy,
won't be very interested, being very disingenious and pretend like
I'm not the most lucky woman on it. Now I
feel not only happy, but thriving. I feel inspired. I
feel very fortunate. I know we're not allowed to say lucky,
(51:37):
but I do feel lucky. I feel grateful. I think
gratitude is my massive antidote to sadness or anger, irritability.
Is just to switch it to a mindset of gratitude,
which is does sound like a privileged thing to say,
but anyone, no matter your situation, can turn to gratitude.
(51:58):
Just for the health of my children, my family, This
incredibly fortunate life I'm living. So I'm very happy and
I feel excited and compelled. And that is because I
took care of myself this year. When I wrote this book,
Things will come Down Soon was something I would throughout
all the time and we would laugh ha ha ha,
No it won't. Hamis should be like that is your life,
you idiot, you know, come on. But then this June,
(52:21):
I actually for the first time had a proper break
from work because the book was in at the printers
and you can't do anymore except start publicity and go
to was in a bit of a production phase that
there was a lull and I was able to just
take a couple of weeks to not be the sort
of level of stress Kit is in Living Dead Yay,
which was very normal for me for about three years
(52:42):
because I had two deals and a novel and day
to day work and young family and I felt like
a different person because I was very burnt out at
the start of the year, burnt out at Jason and
I went to a health camp, which I hadn't done
since for eight years, and I was a different person
when I came back. And I remember at the start
of this year, my mum, she always does my neurology,
(53:03):
She's like, you're in a seven year. I'm fuck it,
I need to have been four year four years of work.
Here she goes, you've done your four years, You're in
a seven year And I'm like, but that's like it's
inner and it's meditative and you learn your skills and
you'll take care of yourself and you go in and
she said, but can't you see how important that is
in this year? And I'm like, no, no, this is
my big year, this is our go to his tenth birthday.
My book's out, I've got two children's books out. I
(53:25):
need to be the peacock this year. And she said,
but you can't do any of that if you haven't
looked after yourself. And so that's why I have boundaries
around eventing or filming or anything that takes a lot
of energy from me. And all family time weekend is
family time, and all of those boundaries are in place
to protect me so that I can do better work
and have a better mindset and be happier and sleep.
(53:46):
You know, sleep our aoh whole family. I made them
obsessed about sleep. The kids don't care. Aisha and I
are very devout sleep. Sleep is our religion.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Do you feel like now that the book is out
and the business, I mean, as somebody who doesn't understand
business at all, the business isn't a really good place.
Have things calm down?
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's a weird time to
be talking about the book because things did calm down
for June and now I'm busy again. But I think
I needed to know that it could calm down, but
the soon was coming. Yeah, I just I needed to
know it was a fact, not just this myth of
this carrot dangling of like one day, so I know
(54:30):
it can be calm and I know this. It's on me.
It's how much I undertake. But I love new projects,
you know. I love studying a new book. I'm already
excited to write a new book. I like to be busy.
I like to be working. I like to do good
work to the point where even if they weren't published
and weren't read, and I would still want to do it.
So yeah, it's me not starting a new project too quickly,
(54:52):
and I've got to hold myself back. I'm like, get
this baby out first. Please just focus on this book,
don't stud new one yet. So I'm back. Feels good.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
Thank you so much for your time today. I really
appreciate it. That's all we've got time for. On today's
episode of But Are You Happy? Zoe Foster Blake's latest
novel about the chaos of business and being a founder
and juggling a family between it all, is called Things
Will Calm Down Soon, and it's out on the first
of October. It's brilliant and I can promise you you
(55:23):
will not be able to put it down. But it's
also incredibly insightful and challenges a lot of ideas we
hold about women and money and success and power. Will
pop a link into the show notes. This conversation went
beyond the veneer of the glamorous, aspirational life of Zoe
Foster Blake to the charismatic, clever, and generous person who
(55:44):
sat opposite me in the studio. I want to thank
her for everything she shared in our conversation. And if
there's anyone you know who you think might get something
out of this episode, please share it with them. If
you want to recommend anyone for the show, you can
message me on Instagram, and if you like the show,
leave us a review. We always love your feedback. Next week,
(56:06):
I speak to Amy Shark about the tension of getting
everything you ever wanted. The executive producer, but are you Happy,
is Niama Brown and the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio
editing by Scott Stronning. I'm your host, Le Stevens, and
we'll see you next week.
So you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.
I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. I
think sometimes the times when everything's meant to be perfect
and you feel like it built it up so much
in your mind and it fails, it's not a failure.
It's a lesson that's always meant to be.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast
that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire
Stevens and today's guest is one who has been at
the very top of my wish list since I first
had the idea for this show. In terms of people
with aspirational lives, Zoe Foster Blake is in a league
of her own. She's an author of fiction and nonfit
(01:10):
and children's books, a skincare founder and an entrepreneur, and
as a fixture of Australian media, she's known for her warm,
handid funny tone, one that is profoundly distinct to her.
I read Zoe's novels in my twenties. She's written a
lot of them, and they're the kinds of stories that
feel like a cozy, comfortable hug from a friend. She
(01:31):
then launched Go to Skincare, an iconic now international skincare company,
And while I don't know a lot about business and
stakes and shares, it's worth many, many, many ends of
million dollars. So obviously I have a million questions for her,
because she really does have the secret source. Unlucky for us,
(01:52):
Zoe is not into gatekeeping. She's one of those people
who really does believe that there's enough success for everyone,
and she likes to teach. Over the years, Zoe Foster
Blake has taught me about vitamin C and face oils
and hyaluronic acid, and I distinctly remember a mind blowing
makeup to you to talk where she put flush on
her nose and it really does brighten up your whole faith.
(02:14):
But in this interview, she taught me a lot more
about boundaries, about success, about drive, about creativity, and of
course about happiness. He's Zoey Foster Black. You in your
early career, like me, you worked for Mayor Friedman. Tell
me when you were in your early twenties working at
(02:37):
Cosmo and then harp As Bizarre. Who were you at
that stage in your life.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh, it was such a great time. I came in
at twenty three knowing nothing about beauty editing at all,
but I'd worked in kids' mags and music mags before then,
so I'd grow on my teath a little bit. But
I'd just come out of a big breakup, and I
really felt like it was my Carry Bradshaw moment because
I was suddenly in this glamorous job, at this glamorous building,
all of these glamorous women who I'd looked up to
(03:03):
for so long. Yes, pinched me moment, and so I
embraced it. I started dressing up for work, which you
had to any way, and my confidence really bloomed, and
I it was the first time I really felt like
part of a team and part of something bigger. And
I had not had a great relationship with other women
before that. I had a really good best female friend
(03:25):
at school, but I had a lot of male friends.
I just thought they were easier, less bullshit, and we
just would be idiots together. And there was more emphasis
on comedy with the boys. So it was the first
time I fell in love with women really and saw
them not as competitors or as boring and whatever I
thought of them during school, and just fell in love
with women and being part of something really fun.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
When you were a beauty editor, did you feel like
it was enough? Like when you were you were at
that stage in your career and you are getting all
these opportunities and you're writing about beauty and really making
a name for yourself. Were you more ambitious than that? Yes?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
And the proof came quickly because Mia quickly put me
in charge of lifestyle as well, and I started writing
dating columns. I had all of the time in the
world and all of the energy, and I just wanted
to do everything. Started a beauty blog, so I'd write
that in the mornings before work, jump on the bus,
drive in to going to work, then go to events afterwards.
And then I remember sort of feeling like I needed
(04:30):
to move on, like I've been at Cosmo for a
few years, and it was actually me who said, just
can you write a book or something like? Just stay here,
but do something else to keep you busy. And I'd
always thought I might write fiction. My father's an author,
and I thought beauty editing was just this mad world.
I couldn't believe it existed. I could get sent stuff
to play with and that's your job. That's actually your job,
and you get to take it home. So yeah, So
(04:52):
I was blogging, working full time, writing a column, and
writing a book and that was just enough.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And Maya approached you at one stage for the deputy
editor job or.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Was some kind of an emotion, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And you said no because it would involve people management
and leaning more into the business side. And you probably
don't know this, but Maya uses you as an example
in a lot of like mentoring conversations where she's like,
which path do you want to go down? She calls
it like the ladder or the lattice? Yeah, and she's
like she offers you as one option, and it's like, well,
(05:29):
no one's going to want to go down the other line.
Everyone just wants to be zoie. So she says, how
you said no to that because you didn't want to
do that.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
There was hard role, Yeah, and you would.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Have been sacrificing your creativity.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
How were you so self assured at that point to
say no?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Ubris. I really think it was Ubris because there is
a lot of creativity in being an editor or a
director of something, because you ultimately, now as a founder ancident,
you're setting the visionary tone, you can shape a magazine,
you're pulling a team together to create something incredible together.
But at that time I saw the man just as
a management role and a business role and a meetings
(06:08):
and only writing you did was the ace. I was like,
oh god, no, I'm a writer, and I am a writer.
Writing informs everything I do if you really drill down
on it. So I saw that pretty clearly, and it
probably was pretty offensive back then at like twenty six
to say oh thanks, I just knew that it. Yeah,
wouldn't be enough writing for me.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you good at saying no?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And also being an editor seemed really stressful? Yeah, a
lot of public facing stuff. Yeah, that scared this shit
out of me. Even as a bidiad you would have
to present to brand and it just ough heart.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Attacks, which is ironic now given what you do heart attacks.
But yeah, when you said no to that, is that
something you're good at saying no when things come up?
That just not yes, something that serves you. I love
no and how do you say no?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It took me a while to learn it, but it
is a real skill. And there are a few key
thinkers that I always look to, like Kevin Kelly and
Seth Godin, who I just firm believers in. You know
that old adage when you say no to then you're
saying yes to you. But it's really about the more
busy you get, having children, having a business, trying to
feed all these different rounds, you just have to be
a lot more careful about what you say yes to
(07:18):
and saying yes to a gig or a job or something.
It's never just that two hours on stage, as you know,
there's a lot of admin and emailing and sorting out
and contracts and travel and all of those things. And
it's a real privilege to be able to say no
to a lot of stuff now. But I have reached
that point because I've done the twenty years earlier of
(07:39):
building up that confidence but also that comfortable position to
be able to have my own business and writing books
and my family and that's all I do.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
How do you say no? Because I'm such a people plaser,
and it's probably one of my big issues is that.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Please yourself, please yourself at this time.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I know. But like if somebody comes to you and
you say no, and then they do that thing of
like coming back to you with more reasons why.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
You can't give you can't give an explanation.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So what's the one sentence though, of to Blake Way
to say that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
You just say thank you so much? Sounds great. I
can't be there, but I hope it goes really well
because if you say, oh, I can't do it that
week they were like, oh, what dates are you free?
Then never explain, just say it's a no, and with
kindness because you're like, thank you so much for thinking
of me. This is going to be a great event,
but it's not for me. And I think it's that
really firm boundary. It's not rude, it's just it's a no.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
And I guess that's the only way that you're able
to focus on the stuff, yeap, that really matters to
you and to do the really really big projects like
building a huge business.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And that is it. And I think also you get
to a point where like you either remember if you're
saying yes to someone that's beneficial to them, that's helping
their brand and their I'd rather help my brand and
my team. Yeah, and what I'm doing over here. So
that's the choice you make too, You're like, oh, I'm
back myself.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I have a theory that the world lies to us
a bit about happiness, and that often the moments that
we expect to be that happy is actually arn't. And
that's sort of what this podcast is about, that there
are these times where we have all these ideas about
how something should feel, and things might look really, really
really shiny from the outside, and that's not the reality.
(09:25):
Do you have an example of a time where externally
things looked great, but under the surface they weren't.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Probably, although a hand on heart, I'd try never to
be disingenious, and I'd rather omit than pretend. I don't
think it's helpful to portray that perfection. I know that's
obviously a lot of what social media is about, and
I know there are a lot of people in our
how a being very open about their vulnerabilities and their
(09:54):
mental health, and I think it's very helpful for a
lot of people to see that. I can honestly say
that that doesn't happen for me very often. There's certainly
been big pockets of my life where things were meant
to be fantastic and amazing. But that's always not really
about the outside observer going, hey, this looks perfect, but
me placing those expectations on it and going you should
(10:15):
be having the time of your life because I've worked
so hard to make it perfect. In my mind, I
am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.
I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. A
big one was the arrogance of taking a gap year
after year twelve and sort of telling everyone in my
small town I'm going in the big city. You know,
I need a break from study. Oh my god, and
(10:38):
taking a year off before going to UNI and moving
to Sydney in a gust of like speed. I was seventeen.
I had no money, nothing, nothing saved. I wasn't going
to Africa to help orphanages. I wasn't going to work
overseas or travel. I didn't have a job. I just
moved to Sydney in the sharehouse and I only had
my grandma and my sister in Sydney, and I had
the most miserable, broke, sad, pathetic year of my life.
(11:05):
And I would go home for birthdays or twenty first
or whatever and had to pretend that everything was going great.
For example, I was working in the dungeon of the
Intercontinental selling their loyalty card as a telemarketer for zero dollars,
and so I would tell everyone I was working at
the Intercontinental. I was also a nightpacker at Cold like
I was. I did a lot of terrible jobs. But
I now am so grateful for that year, because without
(11:28):
the depths of being super duper broke and having not
a friend and no clue and just being aimless, I
would never allow myself to feel like that again. I
just really realized that I need to be busy, I
need to have some purpose, I need to have friends,
and I need to have some money. M So, I
think that year and that was silly, yeah, and some
(11:49):
could say a waste of a year, but because I
was also so young, it didn't really matter. I still
started union everybody else. But yeah, I think sometimes the
times when everything's meant to be perfect and you feel
like you built it up so much in your mind
and it fails, it's not a failure, it's a lesson.
It's always meant to.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Be in your new novel. Things will calm down soon.
Something I really took away from it was the kind
of unrelenting pressure of being a founder and how you
have these achievements that I just cannot even imagine in
terms of what you've built, yet at the same time
(12:26):
you kind of can't sit there to take it in
because there's always a million other things you need to
be doing. Have you had that experience with business sometimes
that you look around and think, this is incredible, but
I'm not able to feel it.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And I think anyone who works in like im media
where you're aways thinking about the next show or the
next magazine or the next whatever where it's working, you
haven't many months ahead. Yeah, it's it's a real trap
because you never take a moment to stop and think
it's only happened a few times over the years, and
it's like it was seeing our products and Saphara in
the States, and it's always the Christmas party where I
(13:01):
stop and look around and go, oh my god, these people,
I love them, Look what they've done, Look what we've
created together, or feedback from customers where you know whether
it's an airport or an email, and it's just that
pure thank you. This has changed my skin. And I
think those little reminders. People might not give founders feedback
(13:21):
because they expect that they'll get it all the time,
But we really need it because it's a really kind
of busy and lonely position a lot of the time.
You're the director and you're meant to have all the
ideas and you have this eternal type of creativity and
excitement and you're public facing. But well, you do get
the good jobs thumbs ups, but you you yourself will
never actually take a moment to stop. Yeah, and you've
(13:44):
got to force yourself to do it. And I think
the Christmas party is always a good one for me.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Does your business like at that go to Christmas party?
When you see your products in Sephora that.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Was in the States? Yeah, we're in Meca.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah. When you have those moments, is it happiness that
you feel or is it something else? Like what does
business give you?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I think it might be a scene, but pride. I
feel proud. I feel proud that I didn't know anything
about business, and I didn't know anything about creating a
team in a workplace and a culture and satisfying a customer.
I had done it a little bit through my writing,
I guess, creating a project that people can hold in
their hands and enjoy. But it's pride and it's always
(14:30):
a bit of how did you get here? I wouldn't
say it's imposter syndrome. I don't I'm past that for that.
But it's pride and a little bit of fascination. Y's cow,
but smile.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Do you get the sense of like I'm leaving a
legacy and I've created something bigger than myself. There's some
like almost immortality there.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I wouldn't have said yes to that, because it feels
silly for a skincare brand to have a legacy. But
when I was buying my company back last year, this
huge maternal instinct came in and I just felt so
protective of what fills my cupboard. I would be bereft
if I had no more go to, let alone the
million of customers who love it and use it every
(15:12):
day and our team, and I just thought, this is
something that enhances people's lives that they really enjoy, and
it gives them a little moment without getting to this
is saving the earth. It's just a nice moment for
people that they like, and it filled a gap and
I'm proud of that. Don't fuck it up, don't ruin it.
It's really really hard to get a brand that people
(15:33):
resonate with. It's really hard to get that stickiness and
that loyalty in their community. How dare you ruin that?
Like you're so lucky? So yeah, I really just went
into full speed mode and six year and just went
at all costs. Yeah, this must keep going. We want
to be a household name in Australia. That's our goal.
Our big goal is to be a household name in Australia.
(15:55):
And we can do it. We've been in BIS for
ten years and I think we'll get there.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
After the break, Zoe and I talk about her strengths
and weaknesses as a business founder, and more about her
book and why she'd be happy to just sit and
write for the rest of our life. What do you
think is your biggest strength as a founder?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
I think creativity, but also coupled with risk. I'm not
averse to risk. I think you have to lean into
risk and be really okay with both outcomes, and they're
not always going to be great. You won't hear about
the bad outcomes. You'll only see the good ones, but
take the chance. And that's what I love about us
being privately owned again and small and nimble, is there
(16:49):
is no bureaucracy. We can do whatever we want, and
I think sometimes we forget that. And I think when
you're trying too hard to think about what the customer
is thinking, you're overthinking it and you need to go
back to what we're thinking. Because when I started the brand,
I had blinkers on. I didn't care about what every
other brand was doing. That was twelve years ago. Now
it's a really saturated landscape, and when you're in retail
like Mecca and you're up against these beautiful international brands,
(17:10):
you have to be a bit o mindful about what
you're up against and how you can stand out. So
I like that. I think within discipline there's freedom, and
I like those boundaries because it allows me to be
more creative and push against things a bit more.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I'm always reminding the team to be cheekier, be a
bit naughtier, where the Rogue Train like, we take beauty
not too seriously. It's allowed to be fun, and we
like to make things fun that have no right to be.
It's like on the back of the packaging and little
moments on the website, We're like, that's allowed. No one
said you can't have fun. So I think being cheeky
and taking risks is probably what I bring.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Is that similar to how you approach creativity in general,
like in terms of writing, in terms of every creative
project you've embarked on, do you kind of have that
cheekiness risk taking a bit of like a no fear Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
And it's funny because I don't think of myself as fearless.
I'm quite anxious person, but I think with creative projects,
I do feel pretty reckless, and I think that it's
a good place to be in. And maybe I wouldn't
have at the start with my earlier novels because I
really needed them to work so that would validate me
and get me to do another one. That would like, oh,
if that works and I get to do another one,
I still feel that if this works, I get to
(18:22):
do another one. Is kind of my barometer of success
as well as how it resonates with the reader. So
it's a funny thing because you sort of there's a
selfishness to writing a piece of work that you're really
happy with and you love because I guess human to
be writing for the reader, but I can't write for
the reader because I don't know what they want and
what they're thinking. So I have to try and assume
(18:43):
that what I like is good taste.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Arrogant, I guess. But I feel confident enough at forty
four in my taste and in my work to be
able to work on it to a point where I
feel like it's good enough to go out there and
I could edit for ten years. I really could, and
I could hone and hone and hone.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
But yeah, so I feel fearless.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
And I loved Things Will Come Down Soon because to
me it felt genuinely innovative in terms of it's not
a business book, but you can learn so much about
business in it. And I just thought that Venn diagram
a crossover of a founder who's an active founder, a
proven entrepreneur, and a fiction writer coming together to offer
something unique, something for everyone, hopefully. So yeah, I think
(19:24):
you got it back.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yourself, as somebody who knows absolutely nothing about business, reading
Things Will Come Down Soon was so fascinating and you
could really feel the stakes. I don't think I've ever
felt stakes like that because you don't really read books
about business and especially women in business. Yes, you so
(19:48):
rarely read those stories. Yet it feels very of the
moment because there are so many female entrepreneurs, there are
so many women building their own things. How did you decide?
Because as a reader, part of my fascination is trying
to work out parallels and who's who when looking at
(20:11):
all the characters. How did you creatively break your own
experience and writing something that was going to be very,
very distinct and not kind of make people look at
your life and one of the.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Oh, and they will, that's okay. The reason I love
fiction is very freeing and it's very liberating. And god,
I remember even back in the air Kiss's days talking
to me about it, going, oh, I might write like
it's a bit of a water biographic. Are you insane?
You're twenty five. You're going to burn all your bridges
way too early.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And my father as well, He's like, fiction is so
fun because you can mutate ten people into one to
get the perfect person with the perfect idiosyncrasies. And so
for me, each character works hard in this book to
pull the narrative through. There's no fat in there. They're
all there to support kids trajectory and to show the
(21:08):
different facets of her life and her personality. So I
can hand on heart say this is not my life
and these are not my people. But certainly there's aspects
of these people that I've known. And also I'm meant
to a lot of young founders, and I've heard their
horror stories, and so a lot of that have come in.
I didn't want to write my deal. My deal is
unique and circumstantial, and it's been written about, and I
(21:31):
wanted to create something new. And also every deal and
every business is so specifically impersonal, and it's a moment
in time, and you know, there's so many factors that
come into the success of a business. So I didn't
want to necessarily replicate my own story.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I think what makes the book so vivid, and you
become so in Kit's world because your creativity and marketing
brain is all over it. Because even the business that
Kit has, which is second day Hair, you can't help
but be like, can somebody invent that?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I know I'm thinking about it, genuinely.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I was like, did you get halfway through the book
and think, oh wait, maybe I should also invent the product.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, it's trademarked.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Is it actually your site?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Ma?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Me was like, maybe I should steal that.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I do not the first I mean, there are products
out there that exist like this, but it couldn't be skin. Yeah,
And I didn't want to do makeup hair. I'm obsessed
with hair and hair products, styling, and I know honestly
about six or seven styles who become good friends, who
all want to have their own brand or have started,
and so it made perfect sense. But the product itself
had to be something that doesn't exist really and could
(22:44):
be very sort to a lot of people. So of course,
you know, lived experience. I'm going to put a bit
of myself in there and what I would do if
I was a founder, But yeah, kid exists as my
parable to show everything I've learned. And after my dealer,
I honestly sat down and went, I feel the duty
of taking everything I've learned from these very expensive lawyers
and advisors to share that knowledge with people who like
(23:07):
me perhaps and they're creative and have no clue about
this stuff. And I ran my gamut for a year
and I'm like, Okay, here's what I learned guys quick.
I needed to get it all down.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Obviously, it's an amazing book and it's page turner, and
I read it so bloody quickly. But I also think
that there's something quite autruistic about it, because as a
woman who I can be kind of creative, the idea
of owning anything doesn't come naturally, and the idea of
(23:41):
trying to build something for yourself doesn't come naturally, and
so reading somebody's story where she does that, and then
all the nuances of how you set up the company
and what that then means down the line, and having
to have really difficult conversations. Even the role modeling of
(24:02):
the difficult conversations that King had was actually incredibly insightful.
Is there anyone who's going to read your book and
see themselves or be pissed off? No?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
No, it shouldn't feel like that sort of book where
like I'm scorched earth about anything. All of the stressing
kickeits last she brought on herself. Yeah, yeah, she shouldn't
do that. The lessons that I put in there were
kind of really dramatized in terms of like equity, giving
away too much equity to start, or selling to people
who didn't really have your best interests at heart. And
(24:40):
I think I got to these positions or pivotal moments
in my business career where I could have made those mistakes,
and so I put them in the story to factors
protection and go did maybe not do that? So that
was the real head fuck when we with Kit was like,
do I want to show her making all the wrong
decisions or do I want to show making the right decisions?
But how do we learn from that? So I had
(25:02):
to find that sweet spot where she falters but you know, anyway,
I won't spilet, but certainly she's learning as she goes,
which I did to How do you.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Go with being a perfectionist and being a writer.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I think it's a skill. I don't see it as
a negative until submission time, and that's when a good
editor and a good copy of art are really vital.
Because I over wrote by thirty thousand words, which is
classic me good problem problem, Well sort of, but then
you know, and then I remember shaving off like a
thousand and getting it back and going, guys, it's don't worry,
(25:37):
it's ready tend to print. Then they're like, you're cute,
and then I think we had to get rid of
at least another twenty thousand. So at that point, though,
I just realized I'm in the hands of professionals, and
I don't fight them on it. There's a few lines
I like, No, that's a really good line. Please come
and keep that. So yeah, I think you're going to
hand it over at one point, otherwise you'll just be
(25:57):
paralyzed forever.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Is the perfectionism paralyzing in the first instance, Like when
you sit down to write. You wrote a blog post
in twenty twenty two called the Writer who Doesn't isn't
something I valish and you wrote about how you wanted
to establish a writing habit.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And you'll notice they haven't. That was like the last blog.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Well you wrote that blog and now you've got an
you did did someone else? But I can imagine you've
got your business, you've got family, you've got all this
stuff going on. Sit down in front of your computer.
Does the perfectionism emerge?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Then? No, not till the end, And I'm so down
with the rewrite if it's not working. There are a
couple of camps of writers. There are the writers who
say it's very hard, and I sit down, I really
and I get typewriter dohea. I just once the idea
has marinated for long enough, it's all there and it's
just a case of getting it out. Hence they're thirty
(26:55):
thousand overright. So for me, my problem is more like,
don't overwrite. You're just wasting your time. This is not good.
But I like to explore every character and every subplot
to give more reflection back to my protagonist. And then
in the end, if we realize it don't need that,
that and I can go. And I also really love dialogue,
and dialogue is hard to keep brief because real life
(27:16):
conversations are super wordy, and I think you learn a
lot about characters and conversations with others. So I love dialogue.
But no, my perfectionism comes in the end. I love
the edit. Some people hate it. It is quite mathematical,
which is not my normal brain superpower. Because you've got
a hard copy, this soft copy, the line edit that
comments underline, like, it's a lot for my brain, But
(27:38):
I know we're shaving it off to get to the
good stuff underneath.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
When you look at all these different things you do,
where does your kind of a liveness come from? Is
it business or is it writing?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Writing is business? For me, so really go to for
a few reasons exists, but one of them was like,
I wanted to be a copywriter and I wasn't, so
I thought, oh, make a brand, then I get to
do my own ads. I get to do my own
marketing and copy. As well as the fact that that
sort of range for cutting out the beauty editor was
what I wanted to do by making it range that
anyone could pick up and understand instantly, and it was
(28:12):
just genuinely very useful and effective. But I love recommendations
and I love saving people time and money. I'm like, I
just use this one. And that's what I've done is
a beauty editor for ten years. But the writing, so
I still write all the copy on primary and secondary
vessels for the brand. Whatever you've hold in your hands,
I've written. I have an amazingly talented team who do
all the emails and social and everything. They're great at that.
(28:34):
But if you're holding it, I've written it because I
love that stuff, that little moment in the shower where
you get a little giggle. So I am a writer
no matter what I'm doing. Really, that's the essence of
it all, whether it's Instagram, I'm a writer. The picture
it's secondary. It's anything children's books, you know, even though
they are literally call picture books, I still want the
(28:55):
writing to really sing, and of course novels. So the
perfectionism it runs through everything.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
How do you go about because obviously when may I
offered you the deputy editor job, you weren't into people managing.
Have you had two people manage?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Not really? And this is one of the things I
put in things will come down soon, is that it's
often feels curati. Founders often hire junior to start off
with to help them with admin or menial tasks. But
as Kit does, she hires very seen you, very early on.
And I think that's a good move because I know
what I'm good at and it's not people management, and
(29:34):
it's not running in a team and logistics and that
sort of thing. So I have a CEO and a
CIMO and I have grown ups in there doing that.
And that was a big important step in our growth
about five years in where I'm like, there was ten
of us, say, doing everything and not all of it great,
and so we brought into grown ups, we always say,
and they're fantastic. So no, no, I think you can
(29:56):
know what you're good at and invest in what you're
not good at.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
How do you go being Zoe foster Blake the founder
and person working in this business and Zoe foster Blake
the brand Like, are you conscious when you come into
work that maybe you've got less of a margin of
error in terms of how you behave that day?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Totally? I think that's when you become a public figure
that's always in your mind anywhere you go and whatever
you do, particularly when your husband's a beacon for that stumes,
so you get used to being.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Watched.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I don't think my team do that. You know, we're
good people, we're all in it together. But I think
the public facing aspect of being a brand founder is
pretty highly scrutinized, particularly in beauty. Never used to be,
but it's become very studied.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And does that scare you? Does it give you anxiety?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah? Totally, And it's an ongoing learning curve for me.
I think a lot of it comes back to my
mental health at that point and how capable I am
of dealing this shit. So if I'm getting into trouble
online about something that we've done as a brand, if
I've not been sleeping if I'm super stressed and already pushed,
that affects me really a lot more, of course. But
(31:18):
if I'm in a good, clean state of mind and
I've been looking after myself, it's amazing the difference you
can do. So that will always happen, it's just how
I can react to it, and that's my goal in
terms of personal improvement as to not being so reactive
and recognizing at a moment in time my people pleasing
anxious side wants to fix it immediately, and I'm always
(31:39):
I want to write back and defend ourselves. That's my
first thing I'm going to do, and that's the first
thing you shouldn't do. It's never defend yourself. You know
people will be upset about things, and you have to
be respectful and also know what you know to be right.
So it's always going to be complicated that parasocial sort
of relationship, particularly if you feel like you're in trouble,
(32:00):
because I don't like feeling like I'm in trouble like
most people, particularly if you don't feel like you've done
the wrong thing.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
There are examples in the book where there will be
certain things going on online or even there's like you know,
tiny doses of cancel culture sprinkled throughout, which is so
clever because that is part of what it is to
be a founder in this.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Day and age.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I know that sometimes you'll read something about yourself and
you're like, Eh, whatever, I don't care. And then there
are things that really upset you, and sometimes you can't
even articulate why what hurts. In the book, there's certain
things you can see that really get under kit skin.
Are there things that get under your skin?
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I think it's assuming our intentions were other than what
they were. So for me, it's everything we do as
a brand is intended and designed and carefully calculated to
be joyful and educational and nurturing. That's what our company
does and that's why we put all this effort into
producing products and marketing them. So when people say that
(33:06):
you've done otherwise, it shouldn't get under my skin, but
it really does. Because one of my key areas to
work on is being defensive when I feel caught out
or when I'm being accused of something I don't think
I did. Ask my husband. That's fun. So, you know,
(33:26):
and there's a group of founders that I have that
when one of us are going through something, we'll all
check in and just say, hey, remember this is not real,
this is just work and it will pass, and all
of those wisdom advices that don't really help, but you've
got to say it so that you know that you're
not alone. So for me, it's just trying not to
(33:48):
be absorb them so easily.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
When people are talking about Zoe Foster Blake online, is
that you I heard a podcast recently where someone described
it as a shadow self, Like you're online person. The
person you are online is not actually who you are.
It's a shadow self, and if people are attacking that person,
you can differentiate because you go, that's not actually me,
that's some avatar image of me that they don't actually know.
(34:15):
Are you good at that? Or because you're so authentic
online and you've built your identity with authenticity, is it
easy to get it confused?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
It's fie, I think, because you're right, it is an avatar.
And I generally use social just for work now and
my cats because I don't feel inspired to share much
more of my life than that. I don't think I
need to, and that's why I write fiction so that
I can experiences that I have I can weave into
stories and that's the fun of it. I also don't
(34:47):
think I'm that interesting, so I don't know why I
would want to share anything more than I do. I
think we take it personally just because we're human beings, right,
and I don't want to ever misstep because it's not
worth the hassle. But I also am aware that it's
not a real world. You know, put you feet in
the grass and need a banana, Just go and be
(35:08):
back in the real world, play with the kids and
remember what's really happening. And it's funny because something will
blow up and you'll be so convinced that everyone's thinking
about or talking about it, and you'll talk to a
friend and they're like, what, Yeah, what do you trying
to do that? And I love those moments because I
was like, yes, notpe out of it, Okay, head out
of your ass and get back into nature or whatever's
going to help. So yeah, they come and go pretty quick.
(35:29):
I'm pretty good at just going that's not really real life.
That's not my real life. I'm at home in my
tractor pants with my kids making dinner, and that's a shining,
glimorous girl that someone's got an idea about and it's
two different things.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
After the break, Zoey talks about the moments where she
feels the happiest and why there are certain interviews she
doesn't want to do. Are you happiest when you're writing?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
I am really happy when I'm writing, but I'm like
a little squirrel who needs treats all the time. So
I can do deep writing for like maybe an or two,
I don't feel the same. Then I need something, maybe
it's a scroll, maybe it's an actual physical scroll. And
then by the end of the day I'm dying for
the gids to get home because I'm like, I need
(36:23):
to talk to someone and engage. So I love the balance,
and in fact, my perfect sort of day is a
bit of family, bit of social as in social interaction,
a bit of riding, and some nature. You know, family
time is beautiful and built in. I also really love
riding bikes with my family. I've really found that to
be a happy place because I can't relax, but that's
(36:45):
active relaxation for me. I cannot sit still. I don't
like not being productive. It's a problem I have so
being physically moving but in nature and relaxing with my
family just tick so many boxes.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
You strike me as someone who's somewhat introverted. Oh yes,
and yet your life is so public and there are
all sorts of aspects to what you do as a career,
that public facing requires some level of social energy. Even
(37:20):
as a beauty editor, went to like fancy events, and
now you'll be at the logies, You'll be at all
these very highly social situations. How do you find those?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
We don't get a mini at all. If you actually
think about it, we'd go to the logis and maybe, yeah,
that's it. Yeah, it does really exhaust me. And I
probably had a lot more energy for it when I
was in my twenties and thirties being beater and so on.
But now I really noticed that drain. It's only because
of thank you to social media, like the language around everything,
for me to understand that I'm a highly social, skilled
(37:56):
introvert and I can come in big and do the thing,
and I can be on stage and do a signing
and whatever and film things, and then I'm like shell,
Like a lot of us, we'd have to go home
and put myself clothed on and not talk to anybody.
What I realized is I got older, is just just
leaving time in between those things to regroup, because if
I don't look after myself, I'm no good to anybody.
(38:18):
So even with this book, to her, I was like,
I'm not going back to back events. I'd rather take
more time and give more, give a better version of
myself to people than be this tired, which he's not
stringing two words together. I don't know how like proper
successful famous people do it, like doing a full press
tour for like a month, or musical theater people on
(38:38):
stage every night. I just, yeah, I don't have it
in me at all.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I'm so fascinated about it. I've always said my worst
nightmare I think would be being in the Big Brother House.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I think about it all the time, or Survivor or alone.
I have a lot of shows I would never go
on because.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I'm like, oh my god, imagine having to be just on.
And then it's like I'm like, I'd probably come across
as quite cold, but it's not coldness.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
It's just tiredness, yes, and anxiety about what I'm going
to say. Did I say yeah, did I say the
wrong thing? I say too much?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
My god?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
So yeah, I am pretty soually anxious, even in my
own office with my team. I just, yeah, I'm a
bit of a goose actually at the part of it.
But I can do it good in short bests, and
I'm like, I just get that short burst out, I'll
be all right. Do you like interviews, Well, I used
to be on the other side of them, which is
probably a bit easier. I don't mind them if it's
about the work. No, I love I can go so
(39:31):
deep talking about creativity and marketing and ideas and writing.
I really love that stuff. I don't get asked it
very often, though, it's not usually the questions that people
want to.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, people are like, let me ask about the gossip
your career. It spans so many creative industries. And do
you worry in terms of looking at the future where
(40:00):
to put your energy and that it's going to be finite,
Like if you look at the next couple of decades,
does it feel like you you really have to intentionally
choose where to put your energy.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I guess you should, but I don't. I love the
surprise and delight of life, Like it could be that
my all, my husband's work could change big time at
any point. We could move and we could like anything
could happen. I also love that writing has no expiration
date and I can still be doing it when I'm
seventy five unless AI comes in and does a better
job of it. Nervous about that. So I feel like
(40:37):
I'm able to always have that work. Thankfully, I don't
need to be young or glamorous for it. I can
just always write. And same with running a business and
doing it well as long as I have the ideas.
And I do have so many ideas. It's not the
lack of ideas, it's the follow through and the execution
and which ones are actually worth backing is probably the
(40:57):
big question for us. So now I get excited about
what's next. You never know what could happen. I was
just like, oh, I've be doing my fifties sixties and
like who knows, who cares? Like just go for it,
Like could be writing for TV or I have no idea.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
When you think about your life, what do you think
is the thing that when you're an old woman, I'm
going to say like one hundred and twenty because that's
how old he's going to live too. What is it
when you look back on your life that will have
made you happy, Like when you really zoom out, what
(41:36):
is it that is the happiness?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
I think it's human connection. I put that to being
a good partner, being the kind of parent who doesn't
fuck up their kids too much. No, I'm going to
do it without knowing what I'm doing, but that legacy
of parenting well, which is a full time job now,
as we all know. My Mum's always like, God, your generation,
(41:59):
you really deep dive on this stuff too, And I'm like, yeah,
well and why. And the connections that I have with
friends and people in the world are really think that
human connection and community also that purpose. Someone asked me
that what do you think your purpose is? And it
is a great question, and I'm not still confident in
the answer, but I think it might be teaching, and
(42:20):
not teaching in terms of teaching, but teaching people how
to look after the skin, teaching people how to do
a business, teaching people how to all the romans and
writing relationships stuff I did, or even with the picture books,
teaching kids how to write funny stories. I don't know,
but vaguely I feel like that's sort of the thread
(42:41):
through all of them is just that and not because
I'm in the position of expertise, but just because I
also love the example of just being a rap from
the bush who's come in and with no clue and
accidentally done a good job of business. I think that's
something to be proud of, because I know a lot
of people put a lot more time and energy into
learning how to business and I somehow snuck through and
(43:05):
did it too.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Really, that's really interesting that idea of teaching, and I
do do you think that that is a thread through
your entire career because so many people I know who
love you. People have come in at different moments and like,
I've got a friend who went through a breakup and
you were her absolute All she talked about was how
(43:26):
you were her guru. And when I was pregnant, I
had all with pelvic pais, Oh my god, I'm so sorry,
and I went so deep. I'm like, like, what do
you do? Okay? Like, there are all these different avenues
where people connect to you, and I think it's because
you're very generous with what you share and how you
share it, and recommendations and being honest about the things
(43:51):
that maybe people aren't always honest about. It's like, especially
when it comes to something like business at the moment
like that, so many people are quite they're gay cape
gaykeepe the business information.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
It's weird, isn't that. There's a very specific character in
the book who is really generous, and she's got American
sensibility to business, which is very different to Australian, which is, oh,
I know a guy, I'll hook you up. I'll know
it is and often, unfortunately in Australia, particularly when I
was starting out, no one would share their chemist or
their factories or anything they're packaging people. Now, of course
(44:26):
you've got full service companies that will do that all
for you. It's changed so much. But I don't want
to be that guy. I want to be the guy
that helps everybody. There is enough pie for everybody, and
I think a greedy gatekeeping mindset it will only come
back to you. Generosity doesn't cost anything. You're helping so
many people. I get tear when people come up to
me and say, oh, I read Breakup Boss and then
(44:47):
I gave it to seven of my friends. It really
really helped, or thank you your face helped my explorer,
whatever it may be. Because I'm like I didn't intend
for that to be the outcome, but so that it did.
Or even like I took your restaurant recommendation with Queenstown,
I'm like, great, I saved you some time and you
had a good meal off that. I love that because
I wish for that. I just want the edit of life. Please?
(45:07):
Can I have the edit? What supplement do I take?
What's the meditation app that I should be using? What's
the book to read? Like clear the clutter and just
let me get to it.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And it's also a bit of a fast track to
human connection. I think it is that you're able to
like I went to read a book the other day
and I'm like, oh, yes, it's got recommended to me.
And I'm like, I saw it old Zoomy's Instagram.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
It's got recommended. What was it? Do you love it?
Speaker 2 (45:33):
It's the Taffy Book. Yeah. I was like, oh, I
loved her first book. I must read it. Yes, and
she's brill But it is that idea of having somebody
you can trust and you know their recommendations have served
you well in the past. You feel connected to them again.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's the hoobers because I'm like, who's to say my
taste is your taste. But it's not like I chose
that book out of like the usually prize when I'm like,
if you haven't read this, you do, it's amazing. But yeah,
I like the time saying aspect and it's really just
putting out what I want to get back, which is
now you recommend me something. You won't help each other out.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
What currently keeps you from happiness?
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Keeps me from happiness? I think it's usually sleep. I
think sleep. It's very well known for a lot of
people that sleep is my number one mental health kryptonite.
So I prioritize it it all costs, and if I've slept,
I can do anything. I haven't slept a monster, And
(46:32):
I've become very good at power napping to get back
on track, like to start the day again, to take
the nap to start fresh, which I think there's napping's
got a bad stigma, but a lot of writers nap.
It's better than their fourth coffee, or it's a twenty
minute meditation, or you're going to in d something. So
sleep is what keeps me from happiness. And probably fear
(46:53):
a little bit just what we're going back to before
about like putting things out into the world and hoping
that it hits and in the amount of times we
put up a new product or a launch or something,
and I'm waiting for the thing we did wrong. What's
going to blindside me here? Even with the book, I'm like, oh,
you know, have I offended someone? Or that world we
live in now where I'm on edge of that vigilance
(47:15):
of like what can they get me for here, which
is very telling, I think. So I'm always aware that
that's going to happen without trying to preempt or manifest it.
It's a fine line. Yeah, I think I'm happy to
take risks, but I'm also aware that it's not for everyone,
and that's okay. I don't want to be for everyone. No,
I think there's that saying that if you try and
(47:36):
be for everyone, you are by definition average. So definitely, yeah,
definitely just find your people and write for them.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
In terms of sleep, because I think maybe a lot
of people realize the importance of sleep when they have
a child for the first time and you're like, oh, yeah,
I thought i'd been strived before. No lack of sleep,
How does that manifest in terms of mental health?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I'm a bitch. I'm snappy with my children, my anxiety ramps.
I can't write. My dopamine hunting has increased one hundredfold
by food, by scrolling, by just silly tasks that don't
actually need doing. I just feel wayward. So I don't
have that focus and I really need that. And I think,
(48:21):
you know, I'm forty four, So perimonopause is a real thing.
The anxiety and the sleeplessness big thing. So I've I've
had my diagnostics and I've got something to help me
sleep now and it's medicinal CBD and fabulous high the
right and yeah, so I just needed to sort that out.
(48:42):
Like I said before, anything else would work because I
have this limit of three nights bad sleep, and yeah,
I will book a fucking hotel. Yeah, I need to sleep.
Something's got to give. So yeah, I've never got to
that stage, but that's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah, because one night you can one night adrenaline. Yeah,
two nights you feel terrible. Three nights I'm a rash.
I've lost all rationality. And then I actually start convincing
myself I don't need sleep. And that's when you know
you've gone nuts, is you're like sleep, who needs sleep?
And then you're like, I need that's very hard with
your child, It's very hard.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
And I had my anxiety only started when I had children.
I wouldn't have characterized myself as an anxious person prior
to that, but a baby who I had to keep
alive was a big deal and sleep was not great.
No bad cycle contributes.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
To it when you are tired, getting defensive, not being
your best self. Are there people around you? Because I
think sometimes in terms of our happiness, sometimes we're not
even the best person to know how to make ourselves happy.
Sometimes the people around us are way better at seeing
(49:50):
things objectively. Are there people who call you out and
pull you into line? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Well, my husband, he's a very lovely man, and it's
not his first instinct. He'll usually cop a few blows
before it'll be like, what's wrong with you? But I
would have already prefaced it. I'm like, I'm tired, I
didn't say the worst sleep last night? Why did the
garbage man came at five in the morning? La la la,
So I've already let everybody know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
he calls me and of course and my kids were
(50:17):
just looking heartbreaking, like what are you being mean, are
you being too snappy? That's horrible. So yeah, I know
when i'm it's a wake up in the morning feeling. Yeah,
I already know it's there. I tell myself, Oh, you're
being a bitch, like saw your shit, and it's twenty minutes.
I just need twenty minutes to just go and meditate
or something. Yeah, I'm such a better person, and I'm
(50:39):
really okay with asking for that now, Like even in
big family function moments where by law you're not allowed
to just excuse yourself to do anything. But I'm like, ah,
I don't like any of you for a minute. I'm
going to go just become a nicer person. Then we're
gonna have a great day.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I think maybe I need to do that. I need
to do that in a lot of social situations because
otherwise I push through and I'm like it's written all
over my face. Yes, everybody knows how I'm feeling. Yes,
I think I'm hiding it. Yeah, no, no, no, no, Right now,
you've got a new novel out. Things will calm down soon.
You've got a wildly successful business, are you happy.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah. To the point where when this podcast was pitched,
I was like, no, I can't do that. I am happy,
won't be very interested, being very disingenious and pretend like
I'm not the most lucky woman on it. Now I
feel not only happy, but thriving. I feel inspired. I
feel very fortunate. I know we're not allowed to say lucky,
(51:37):
but I do feel lucky. I feel grateful. I think
gratitude is my massive antidote to sadness or anger, irritability.
Is just to switch it to a mindset of gratitude,
which is does sound like a privileged thing to say,
but anyone, no matter your situation, can turn to gratitude.
(51:58):
Just for the health of my children, my family, This
incredibly fortunate life I'm living. So I'm very happy and
I feel excited and compelled. And that is because I
took care of myself this year. When I wrote this book,
Things will come Down Soon was something I would throughout
all the time and we would laugh ha ha ha,
No it won't. Hamis should be like that is your life,
you idiot, you know, come on. But then this June,
(52:21):
I actually for the first time had a proper break
from work because the book was in at the printers
and you can't do anymore except start publicity and go
to was in a bit of a production phase that
there was a lull and I was able to just
take a couple of weeks to not be the sort
of level of stress Kit is in Living Dead Yay,
which was very normal for me for about three years
(52:42):
because I had two deals and a novel and day
to day work and young family and I felt like
a different person because I was very burnt out at
the start of the year, burnt out at Jason and
I went to a health camp, which I hadn't done
since for eight years, and I was a different person
when I came back. And I remember at the start
of this year, my mum, she always does my neurology,
(53:03):
She's like, you're in a seven year. I'm fuck it,
I need to have been four year four years of work.
Here she goes, you've done your four years, You're in
a seven year And I'm like, but that's like it's
inner and it's meditative and you learn your skills and
you'll take care of yourself and you go in and
she said, but can't you see how important that is
in this year? And I'm like, no, no, this is
my big year, this is our go to his tenth birthday.
My book's out, I've got two children's books out. I
(53:25):
need to be the peacock this year. And she said,
but you can't do any of that if you haven't
looked after yourself. And so that's why I have boundaries
around eventing or filming or anything that takes a lot
of energy from me. And all family time weekend is
family time, and all of those boundaries are in place
to protect me so that I can do better work
and have a better mindset and be happier and sleep.
(53:46):
You know, sleep our aoh whole family. I made them
obsessed about sleep. The kids don't care. Aisha and I
are very devout sleep. Sleep is our religion.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Do you feel like now that the book is out
and the business, I mean, as somebody who doesn't understand
business at all, the business isn't a really good place.
Have things calm down?
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's a weird time to
be talking about the book because things did calm down
for June and now I'm busy again. But I think
I needed to know that it could calm down, but
the soon was coming. Yeah, I just I needed to
know it was a fact, not just this myth of
this carrot dangling of like one day, so I know
(54:30):
it can be calm and I know this. It's on me.
It's how much I undertake. But I love new projects,
you know. I love studying a new book. I'm already
excited to write a new book. I like to be busy.
I like to be working. I like to do good
work to the point where even if they weren't published
and weren't read, and I would still want to do it.
So yeah, it's me not starting a new project too quickly,
(54:52):
and I've got to hold myself back. I'm like, get
this baby out first. Please just focus on this book,
don't stud new one yet. So I'm back. Feels good.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
Thank you so much for your time today. I really
appreciate it. That's all we've got time for. On today's
episode of But Are You Happy? Zoe Foster Blake's latest
novel about the chaos of business and being a founder
and juggling a family between it all, is called Things
Will Calm Down Soon, and it's out on the first
of October. It's brilliant and I can promise you you
(55:23):
will not be able to put it down. But it's
also incredibly insightful and challenges a lot of ideas we
hold about women and money and success and power. Will
pop a link into the show notes. This conversation went
beyond the veneer of the glamorous, aspirational life of Zoe
Foster Blake to the charismatic, clever, and generous person who
(55:44):
sat opposite me in the studio. I want to thank
her for everything she shared in our conversation. And if
there's anyone you know who you think might get something
out of this episode, please share it with them. If
you want to recommend anyone for the show, you can
message me on Instagram, and if you like the show,
leave us a review. We always love your feedback. Next week,
(56:06):
I speak to Amy Shark about the tension of getting
everything you ever wanted. The executive producer, but are you Happy,
is Niama Brown and the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio
editing by Scott Stronning. I'm your host, Le Stevens, and
we'll see you next week.
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