October 27, 2024 • 40 mins
For millennials, the Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show was basically our Super Bowl growing up. After being cancelled in 2019 for lack of diversity - it’s back baby—now with Tyra Banks in a plus-size bra, nepo babies ruling the runway, and the brand suddenly preaching diversity. But is this a glow-up or just a messy comeback? Join hosts Phoebe Parsons and burnout therapist Sheena Schuy as they unpack the chaos, call out the hypocrisy, and wonder if this reboot is really progress—or just another reason millennials need therapy.
If you like the Podcast, rate it, write a review and follow on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
For more follow Phoebe Parsons on Instagram and Sheena Schuy on Instagram
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apoge Production. Welcome to Millennials Need Therapy, where we unpacked
some of the most unhinged moments and cultural chaos that
left an entire generation in dire need of some serious therapy.
I'm your co host, Phoebe Parsons, a pointer Central millennial
(00:25):
who was raised on the Internet and uses means as
a genuine coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm Sheena. I'm a licensed therapist and burnout expert who
is here to attempt to help every millennial stuck in
an existential crisis try and make sense.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Of it all. Today we're in therapy a body image.
The Victoria's Secret Fashion Show was once the highlight of
my entire year. I would even call it the female
super Bowl of our generation until twenty nineteen when it
was canceled for its lack of diversity. Well it's back, baby,
(01:04):
and it brought with it a couple of NEPO babies,
Tyra Banks and a plus sized bra an alleged diversity.
But is this a redemption arc or is it just
capitalism in a g string? Okay, I've been dying to
talk to you about this for a whole week now,
and we are finally having the conversation. We have to
(01:25):
talk about the Victorious Secret Fashion Show because I honestly
feel like for millennial women in particular, the Victorious Secret
Fashion Show is like our version of the Super Bowl,
Like it's it was what we looked forward to all year.
We couldn't wait to watch the show, Like I distinctly
remember being in late high school, early UNI watching it
with my girlfriends, Like it was such an iconic show,
(01:47):
not even just for the models, but for like the
halftime performers, the diamond bras, like the closing of the
show with the most extravagant pair of angle wings, like
angle wings, angel wings, Like it was such an iconic
part of our I think growing up. And then the
show in twenty nineteen got canned for being the lack
(02:07):
of a better word, a bit tone deaf, and there
was real lack of diversity and inclusivity in terms of body, gender, race.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
You know, all of the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
And I want to chat to you today about whether
or not we think the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show twenty
twenty four is a bit of a redemption of or
whether it's a PS done and we just have so
much to unpack.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh I cannot wait. So let's get into the questions
because I feel like there's there's so many angles of
this right and it has been all over my feet,
all over my TikTok, my Instagram, and I don't watch
much news or anything, but the little news I do
get has also been mentioning it. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
That is so funny. Did you watch it when it
was originally on.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I'm going to admit that I didn't really, but I
was my mum and I religiously I remember this growing up,
would watch the Miss World competitions. Okay, so, and they
were caught like they had that same vibe of like
having very famous pop stars on them and you know,
these extravagant outfits and yeah that it kind of had
(03:15):
the same feel and again you know the tone deafness.
They would get a lot of critiques around that.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So yeah, well, I feel like we're coming at it
from two good angles heat because I was so invested
in the Victoria's Secret fashion shows that I am the
first to admit that my phone background for a while
there was Candice Wepinol in a bikini because she was
like my body inspo and my alarm when I was
starting out in my fitness journey and I was trying
to wake up early to go to the gym.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Was Miranda her wouldn't hit snooze?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh feb Yeah, you were die hard fan.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I was a die hard fan.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So, as we know, the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show was
canned in twenty nineteen because of the lack of diversity
that we spoke about a little bit earlier, and what
we've seen now is the show being picked up again
and their attempt at diversity. So they did include some
tokenistic plus size models and I say that with Bunny
ears because in my opinion, they are mid size at best.
(04:12):
Clap well done because there were two transgender models, which
I think was great and something that we never would
have seen before. But something I wanted to talk about
first before we get into the body stuff was kind
of the NEPO baby takeover because when Victoria's Secret was
in its heyday, it was the be all, end all
of a model's career to finally get to the Victoria's
(04:35):
Secret Show and to become a Victoria's Secret Angel, and
models would work their entire careers to earn a pair
of angel wings.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yet this year what we saw on the.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Runway in the Angel Wings was a lot of NEPO babies.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, yeah, And it's such an interesting topic because, as
you say, you know, this is the pinnacle of someone
working for their whole career to get, you know, the wings.
So it was a really big deal back in the day.
Even though I didn't watch all the shows it was,
I remember it kind of being the pinnacle and Gizelle
(05:12):
kind of you know, that's that her image is still
in my brain. And you know, Heidi Klume like the
old school ones and Adriana Lima still looks the same somehow,
So I remember that. And I guess if we think
about this from other industries, imagine if a football are
just as like, oh here's my son, he's good at footy,
(05:32):
put him on the field, like we would not do
that again, comparing it to the Super Bowl. Right on
the flip side of that, I know, just straight up
just being honest. And we talked about this off air
briefly that I'm a mum, right and so if I
had an opportunity for my child given to me, I'm
(05:53):
taking it. So I can see both sides, Like from
a parent's side, you get it. It's more the organization
themselves that has to do it. But again, we don't
know behind this sings, because if I'm honest, one of
the things I was thinking about is this show had
a lot of people, a lot of celebrities, and I
(06:16):
was thinking, how are they affording this? Like how many
you know, items does Victoria's Secret have to sell to
actually pay for all of this? Like how is this
actually profitable as a business model? And so there is
a part of me that goes, if this is their
last hurrah that we don't know about. Maybe they're just
(06:38):
going all in. They're like, screw it, do whatever we want.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You're so right, because I think the dynamic has changed
a little bit in the celebrity sphere since the last
time we saw a Victoria's Secret show. Instagram influencers weren't
massive then. Online followings weren't as massive then, so it
was just your stereotypical supermodels. It was like the Miranda
cas Alessandra and Brosio, you know, Giselle Butschen like all
the beautiful, iconic supermodels. We wouldn't have followed them on
Instagram at that time. We would have had none of that.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
But now it's gig and Bella had did.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Heidi Klum's daughter, Johnny Depp's daughter, like it's literally like
the rich kids of Instagram just all over this runway.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, exactly. So it's it's mixed. It's really interesting. But
I can I can understand that if I was a
model and I was working so hard to try and
make it and you see that happen, that that would
really sting, you know. And Miranda Kerr wasn't there. There's
a lot of talk about why wasn't she there? But
(07:37):
she's posted a video of her strutting her stuff with
the amazing hair, you know, that iconic kind of wave, Yeah,
the long hair, and it's kind of you know, people
are saying, is this a bit of a dig because
why wasn't she in the show? If all these other
nebo babies are still in the show, like the og,
she should be there.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Although I do remember hearing a little bit of controversy
about Mirandako when she did become an angel. I heard
I think she was one of the highest paid angels
she got. I think there was a bit of controversy
when she got gifted the diamond wings one year and
I think a lot of the older supermodels were a
little bit jealous perhaps that she was young and more
(08:20):
up and coming at the time, and she was given
the honor of wearing the big expensive hundreds of thousands
of dollars of diamond wings. So there could be a
little bit of a female tip going on behind the
scenes there too.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah. We honestly, there's so much that goes on behind
the scenes from a business perspective, like I just sort
of mentioned, from a politics perspective, from celebrities, like who's
got the most pull in this kind of brand as well?
You know, but I correct me if I'm wrong. But
I also vaguely remember something about Miranda Kerr being really young,
(08:55):
like eighteen or nineteen or something, and this is a
lingerie brand, so I don't know if it was her
or another model, but it was almost like fresh eighteen
being a lingerie model, you know, And like, I don't know,
you know, there's there's some stuff around that as well,
of like how young. And you know, again, if this
(09:18):
is the idolization of beauty, why is this? Ifn't this
and their average consumer is not going to be eighteen,
maybe they're older, Why are we modeling after an eighteen
year old's body.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I also didn't see any Love Pink in this year's show.
You know how they normally have the Victoria's Secret and
the Love Pink, and the Love Pink is the younger, cheekier,
kind of more sporty version of Victoria.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So I didn't know. This is like a sub brand
of Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Ah, I didn't see any of that this year.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Who knows. So there's something going on, but it's it
felt very out of the blue. I don't know this
this whole big thing.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Do I feel exactly the same way. I feel like
it was only a couple of weeks ago there now
it's like, hey, guess what the Victoria's Secret fashion shows
back and then boom it was on and now it's
over again again.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And we don't know the business behind the scenes of it.
Like again, this could be a big lass hoorrah, Let's
throw everything at it and see if we can make
this brand profitable again. Who knows. I don't know how
the lingerie industry is going as a whole, but retail
as a whole is struggling, particularly you know Victoria's Secret.
I remember the stores being a big part and you know.
(10:27):
I guess what we know from a business perspective is
shopping center stores are really not as profitable as they
used to be because the rent is so high, and
so you know, people are talking about a shopping center
is even going to be a thing in the future,
which is kind of sad and kind of scary. It's
got to smell. I feel like the Victoria's Secret stores
(10:49):
had a smell. I don't know if it was a
candle or like a.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Purpose a body spray, because I had the body spray
because remember when Victoria's Again and its Heyday, They had
Victoria's Secret Stores at basically every airport, and it was
always the cool thing to do when you were at
the airport was to pop in and buy I think
they did like the red for thirty dollars underwear and
like some Body's Brains and lipgloss, and it was like
so cool to go into Victoria's Secret or buy a
makeup bag or something small that you could afford.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Oh yeah, And I feel like as a teenager it
felt naughty, but it felt cool, like oh, I'm in
a lingerie store, like specifically, like I'm not a target
with my mum buying a bra and.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Walking around with that little pink bag was such a
status symbol.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I know, and they had the whole I feel like
they had a collaboration with Playboy. You know, it's all
coming back to me now because remember how the Playboy
thing was a really big thing when we were growing up,
like the Bunny years, and yes, all of that as well.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
I want to talk about the comeback and kind of
the glow up and the response this year, and how
they kind of pivoted from the reason they were canceled
in the first place, which was, as we touched on earlier,
the lack of diversity. So as I said before, they
are advocating for that kind of everybody is beautiful kind
of mentality that the world seems to have shifted, and
(12:06):
truth be told, I didn't see a whole lot of
diversity on the runway, and I think there were a
lot of the same body types being shown on that catwalk.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
And on that runway.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
They did have the two transgender models, which I think
was amazing. They did have two plus size models, Ashley Graham,
who I think it's almost a little bit tokenistic in
the way that she was used because she's mid size.
I would say at best, And I did actually read
that she was hesitant to accept the offer to walk
in this show because of the background and the conversations
(12:40):
that the Victoria's Secret Show and Bodies had in general.
So I just wonder how she feels now seeing the
backlash the show actually got.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, it'll be interesting. And you said there were two models?
Was it her and Tyra Banks or was there.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
An no, no, oh god, we'll get to tire Banks
in just a second. Note, it was Ashley Graham and
Paloma Alessa, who again I would say that she's also
mid size. But the other interesting thing about the mid
size walkers was they weren't wearing lingerie like the other
girls were. Ashley Graham was wearing a night dress, so
we didn't see her stomach, we didn't see her bum,
We didn't see as much skin on them as we
(13:17):
did on the other goals, which in my opinion, isn't
showing us body diversity. It's covering up the body.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
The thing about Victoria's Secret is it is a consumer brand,
so it's interesting because they've got models wearing the clothes. Right,
So back in the day it was purely models. It
wasn't everyday people walking the runway, right, Whereas this year
because they've had celebrities and I don't know, it's a
bit of a mixed bag, because I think that's the
(13:47):
thing is that brands, like let's say Dior, for example,
if they're walking down twenty thousand dollar gowns, you know
this isn't for the everyday consumer. Victoria's secret is selling
cheap bras, So why do they not have more more
sort of models, like a mixture of the standard six
(14:10):
foot thousand meter model, but also you know, the shorter
models or the more standard body types. Right, It's really interesting.
I don't know, I don't know how I sit with it,
but this is fashion at the end of the day, too,
so I feel like fashion play by their own rules.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Look as someone who has naturally double D sized breasts,
and I really struggle to buy underwear and to buy bras.
I would like to see some bigger boobs on the runway.
And I don't think that's too much to ask when
you're looking at lingerie.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
No exactly, particularly because that is the type, right, and
also what does it look like on a shorter body,
because we all have different heights but also different types
of bodies as well. So again I've mentioned in another
episode that I'm more of an apple body type, and
then again there's criticism about calling body types fruits. Like
(15:03):
I feel like whatever you do, and even as we're
having this conversation, I'm very hesitant of the way I
word things because I think nowadays, whatever they these brands do,
they're going to get criticized one way or another. So
from a brand perspective, I can understand both sides of it,
(15:23):
even though we know there definitely should have been more diversity.
And one of the interesting things I guess about the
diversity aspect when we look at it from a race
perspective of like different races as well. A lot of
women of color are critiquing the fact that the hair
and makeup of the women of color was awful, so
(15:47):
that their natural hair texture wasn't emphasized. So you know,
if you have curly hair, and you know, for the
girls to do the curly girl method, I am not
one of them because it looks way too hectic. I
rather just straighten my hair and be done with it.
But it's part of an identity on like the hair
texture and embracing it and making it show, it's complete,
(16:10):
and the women who were women of color and actually
wore their hair curly and not slicked back and straight,
they were done wrong. Like a lot of people are
saying their hair was frizzy and it wasn't styled according
to that hair texture. So again, you know a lot
of African American women will have a specific hairdresser for
(16:30):
their hair texture because it's very different to Caucasian hair.
So again, you know, there's so many little intricacies and criticisms,
and again this is just to consume a brand. I
don't know, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I think that's how you can tell the difference though,
between when a business is using someone as a tokenistic
gesture as opposed to an authentic gesture. Because I even
remember this happening in Black Lives Matter. I have a
friend who is Indigenous and she's an Indigenous artist, and
all of a sudden, she was approached by twenty five
fast fashion Australian brands asking her to collab with them,
(17:09):
and they were using that as a tokenistic gesture to say, hey,
look at us, We're employing Indigenous artists to do a
collaboration because we care.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
You don't care.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
You're trying to jump on a bandwagon to prove a point.
And that's almost what this feels like. By putting women
like that in the Victoria's Secret Show, they're doing it
to tick a diversity box as opposed to making them
feel and look incredible as who they are.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Okay, we need to talk about Tyra Banks because her
closing the Art show was absolutely iconic. But I have
two standpoints on this one. The first one is Tyra Banks,
aka the host and creator of America's Next Top Model,
which was one of the most problematic shows in history
where she was essentially the queen of fat shaming. All
(17:59):
of a sudden, she is now closing the Victorious Secret
Fashion Show as a plus sized mod, all telling us
all to embrace our curves. Tyra, Babe, the math ain't
math and right now.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And I think what's happening is that she hasn't acknowledged
it first. And what's even more interesting is others aren't
calling her out on it like as the public we are.
But she was on an interview for The Drew Barrymore
Show and she did not get called out on it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's I was actually disappointed and Drew for not calling
her out, because Drew normally does ask very honest questions.
I was actually really disappointed she didn't. But in saying that,
I feel like maybe Tyra has a very strict PR
team who has said exactly what you can and can't
ask her.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, exactly. But I think I'm two cited on it too,
because I'm very big on I really want to support
people to change their mind on anything at any time.
You know, I could have opinion today, realize that I'm wrong,
and change my opinion tomorrow, and you should, you know,
I should be supported in the fact that I'm open
minded and changing. However, Tyra has not done that, so
(19:09):
you know, for example, if I've done you know, this
is a bad example. But I feel cringey even bringing
it up. But again, when I was younger, celebrating Australia
Day without recognizing that you know, it's harmful, and before
we were educated on how that might hurt that day
to some people, and then making a decision about whether
(19:31):
or not I will celebrate that day, which is another discussion,
but it's it's something where you can acknowledge I used
to believe in something and now after being educated on
it in times have changed, I can grow from that.
I think that's the problem is you need to acknowledge, Okay,
I stuffed up, rather than just moving on and pretending
(19:52):
like nothing happened.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I'm really glad that you use that example, because when
you know better, you do better. And Tyra was just
as heavily influenced in that heroin Chic era that we
all were, so she didn't know better at the time,
and it wasn't shocking to us at the time to
see that. And I went back this morning and watch
some America's Next Top Model clips and I was religious
about watching that show. And at the time I wouldn't
(20:16):
have flinched, But now when I watch it, I have
an actual visceral reaction and I'm like, WHOA, can you
imagine that happening now?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
No, you can't.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
So I don't have an issue with her walking in
the show as a proud plus sized woman, because when
you know better, you do better. I think it's the
fact that she didn't acknowledge what had happened in the past.
And I think the Australia Day thing is a perfect
example because I'm the same, all of my friends are
the same if you scroll back on our Facebook albums
(20:45):
like even Til you Know twenty eleven, we're all out
of barbecues together with Australia flag tattoos on our face,
drinking beers out of Australia cups and things like that
because we didn't know any better at the time.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
We weren't educated on it.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
But now we are we can look back and say, oh,
you know, I've changed my mind, and.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I'm wholehearted with you.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I think it's part of the human experience to make mistakes,
and that's when the education piece comes up, and it's
so important. And with someone who is as iconic as
Tyra Banks to so many young millennial women, I think
she did have a responsibility to own it and confess
it and actually apologize.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. Absolutely, because I understand that it was of the
time and I get you of that as well. But
you can see how hurtful her comments were to some
of the contestants. And again I feel like I remember
the show branding them as brats if they didn't want
to cut their hair, or they didn't want to take
(21:45):
their nails off, or they didn't want to you know,
I just it's sorry. I'm getting cringees coming back to me.
Remember when they did like an episode where they're going
to do different races, like dress up as different races.
Do you remember that? That was like a modeling episode off.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
So you know what, I think, I do? You know what?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
There was also a spinoff, America's Next Missing Top Model,
and it was about amputees, like there was so much
wrong with that shop.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I'm literally gasping as you tell me that, because I
know I can't. I don't even know where to start,
but I guess, yeah, this is such an interesting topic
because you know, again, I think the Australia Day example
is interesting because let's say, you know, we're still podcasting
in fifty years together bebes, and so god knows how
(22:35):
old will be, we'll both be, you know, around eighty
five with our past tea or whatever. But you know,
it'd be interesting if our Facebook albums of us with
the Australian flag, who God knows it'll be changed by then.
But you know, if that came out and we were
expected to do a formal apology, like it would be
(22:58):
really interesting because again, as younger people, we kind of
were part of the and the ethos. It's just really interesting.
It's really easy to call this out on people with
big profiles and celebrities because I think after you know,
I do a lot of like behind the scenes work
with people who may be a little bit higher profile
(23:20):
or their businesses or the people they work with in media,
and something that when I first started working with I
guess higher profile people that surprised me is you would
think they have a huge PR team, but you know,
and obviously Tyra would, but sometimes people don't, and so
they're making these calls off their friends judgment of all
(23:43):
of this, you know. So I think it's just really
interesting that a lot of the time, everyday people end
up being you know, a leader or a celebrity, and
we would all have to navigate it and figure it
out too, like what would be my response, How would
I manage this? And if I don't have a big, formal,
(24:04):
high regrets, high level PR team, what the hell would
I say and do I'm always going to piss somebody off.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I also think that vulnerability and honesty inspire change and
inspire you to look in at your own life. And
I feel like if someone with her status went on
the record and apologize for that. It would inspire so
many people to do the same, not necessarily about being
mongering and fat shaming and things like that, but it
does make you reflect about your own beliefs and things
that you've done differently in the past that you have
(24:33):
a different view on now, And I think that's a
really healthy narrative to just have in general.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, definitely, And it is an uncomfortable one too, Like,
I'm still feeling uncomfortable about us admitting this stuff around
Australia Day because on the flip side of that, there
are a lot of people who still celebrate it and
think the other way and go, why should we change
the date? And you know, you're a bit too much
of a lefty if you're even thinking that. Like, it's
(25:01):
just an uncomfortable conversation all round, because it's to be
people who have no issue with it and think it's
all being blown out of proportion. There's going to be
people who are going, I'm so glad Sheena and Phoebia
having this conversation and admitting this. You know, it's a
really interesting time for brands, for businesses, like you know,
(25:22):
Victoria's Secret, for celebrities involved with this because of that
cancer culture, because they're all trying to scramble to go
what what is the majority of people sitting with? What's okay?
What's not? Because again, who knows, Like maybe you know
this is awful to think about, But the main target
(25:44):
market for Victoria's Secret is the US market, and there's
super right wing people who don't really like diversity, and
then on the other side there's super left wing people
who really want diversity. So as a brand and a business,
if you think of it from that perspective that they're
not a not for profit, they're not a government agency
(26:07):
trying to advocate for change. They're literally just a business.
Who were they trying to cater to.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
It's yeah, it's such a big discussion. Something else I
wanted to talk about was the narrative around food because
this is something that I think just warrants a bit
of conversation because as someone who struggled with eating disorders
in the past, I find what I eat in a
day content incredibly triggering and it's something I've actively had
to like unsubscribe from to get out of my algorithms
(26:38):
and my feeds because back in the day I was
obsessed with reading celebrities what I eat in a days
and I think that so many women can relate to this.
And I remember there was a I think the website's
still around, but there's not an Australian version anymore called
pop Sugar, and about three times a week that released
a Day on My Plate with a celebrity or an
influencer or someone like that. And I was just obsessed
(26:59):
and I took that literally. I thought that everything that
they were actually admitting to was like that they were
actually eating it. And the other day I stumbled on
a what I Eaten a day on the day of
the Victoria's Secret Show as a Victoria's Secret Angel, and
I sent you this clip, and I just think, oh.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I've really got to brace myself. This she said.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
For breakfast, she has a march A latte, some eggs
on toast whatever. The lunch she had a burger and fries,
which I don't care if you eat that in your
day to day, but there is no way in hell
you are honestly eating that on the day of the
Victoria's Secret Fashion Show. And I think that is such
an irresponsible thing to put out there to your audience.
(27:46):
Who is probably young women.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Absolutely, It's really tricky because you know, a lot of
this starts as orthorexia. So orthorexia is when people are
getting obsessive about their health, so obsessive about calories. How
many steps did I get to the point where they're
ignoring friends and family and all of this sort of stuff, right, so,
(28:12):
and ignoring other parts of what makes them healthy psychologically, socially, spiritually, whatever.
They're sacrificing it all just for health or food or whatever.
It seemingly starts healthy. And this is the tricky part
with eating disorders is most if you look at the
trajectory for most young women and eating disorders, it's I
(28:35):
just want to eat a little bit healthier. I just
want to train a little bit more. And it's just
this kind of content is very triggering around eating disorders,
and you know that burger and fries stuff just really
annoys me. But it's such an interesting topic because we
(28:55):
did talk about so Adrianna Lima was really honest. I
couldn't find the clip. I was trying to find it
so I could send it to you, but she was
really honest about the fact that she doesn't really eat
much the week of and she will drink a lot
of water. And I guess in some ways, you know,
the body building community, they're very honest about what goes
into competition day, which literally is very similar to the
(29:19):
Victoria's Secret thing of On competition pay day, people pass
out from dehydration. They're literally getting IV drips right after
they get off stage. You know, they're doing all sorts
of crazy things to shed that last little bit to
look as toned as possible, and they're really open and
(29:40):
honest about it.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
I think the body building community are very like, this
is what I eat in the two weeks to competition day.
And I think this is where it's problematic, is that
people think that they live their life like that, you know,
But on the flip side of it, I don't. It's
sort of like, are we showing people that this is
what you should look like every single day? Because even
(30:03):
bodybuilders will admit I own I only ever look like that,
My abs only ever look like that on competition day.
They do not look like that in everyday life. So
that's the thing. I think there's this unrealistic expectation of, oh,
that's what my body, my body should look like every day.
I think that's where it feeds into eating disorders, because
(30:24):
these models are literally admitting to almost having eating disorder
habits to look like that on what we would consider
competition day.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
I'm really glad you said that because that is the
exact way I likened it to as well. I've gotten
many friends who've done bikini competitions and bodybuilding shows, and
I've got my best friends a professional boxer, which is
a weightcut sport. So I've been around a lot of
people who are doing weightcutting and comp prepping. And the
minimum time that a bikini comp or bodybuilder will prep
(30:53):
for their stage weight is probably fourteen weeks minimum absolute minimum.
They are tracking their macros, their calories, everything, and the
two weeks. And the reason I'm so angry about the
burger and fries comment is because they're not eating especially
sodium or anything like that in the in the you know,
(31:14):
the day of, or the lead up too, because it's
so bloating. And I think, on one hand, I could
see what she was trying to do by trying to
maybe be a positive role model for people looking at
her and being like, hey, I'm a model and I
used to eat burger and fries. But also don't lie
and say that you had a burger and fries and
all the rest of it that day and then you
(31:35):
went on stage looking like you did, because that's not
an accurate representation, and that's gonna plant a seed in
so many people's heads of why if I eat a
burger and fries, I don't look like that. And you know,
it's just I mean, it's such a big conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
It really is. But again, I think it comes back
to it is such a touchy subject and you can't
win with honesty and you can't win lying either. So
I remember we also spoke about Bethany Frankel recently shared
a video of the fact, you know, she shared something
(32:12):
like how do I eat so much food and I'm
still skinny or whatever, And she was very open and
honest where you know, because she travels so many places
and obviously a lot of brands sponsor her and all
that sort of stuff, so wherever she goes, she'll try
a hot dog or cookies, and she was honest about
the fact that I have a little bit of everything,
(32:33):
but I don't eat the whole thing. Ever, so it's
almost like she's saying, I get to taste of these things,
but I don't eat it, and that's how I stay skinny.
And it again mixed reviews everywhere because on the one hand,
she's being honest about what it takes to look like that.
(32:54):
On the flip side of that, I know nature paths
and nutritionist and anyone who works with eating disorders really
discourages that kind of eating because life's about enjoyment and
food is part of that enjoyment. So saying oh, I'm
only going to enjoy life a touch, that's kind of
(33:15):
what you're saying when you do those sorts of things, right,
So she was getting it from everywhere, but at least
she was open and honest, you know, and I think
honesty is the best policy. But also if you have
to have eating disorder habits, things that people with genuine
eating disorders do to be unhealthy, if that's what it
(33:40):
takes you to fit the aesthetic, we've definitely got something wrong.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Also, remembering they're getting paid millions of dollars to walk
in this show, so they are literally getting paid to
look like that. It's a literal job for them, So
they're making I suppose the sacrifices they need to make
in order to I don't know, get that paycheck that week.
And I am going to say this though, and this
is probably contradicting everything I just said. I distinctly remember
(34:07):
I worked at Australian Fashion Week. It would have been
probably around two thousand and twelve, twenty thirteen, and Alessandra
Ambrosio was there, and she was walking in the Alex
Perry show as she was quite recently postpartum. Australian Fashion
Week is very different to a Victoria's Secret Fashion show.
She wasn't wearing bikini. She was wearing dresses and blouses
(34:29):
and pants and the rest of it. And I saw
her eating nacho's backstage. Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, well done.
I actually took a photo of it, which I probably
still have in the cloud somewhere. I don't know if
I can find it, but I did see that, and
I was like, wow, that's incredible. She's a breastbeeding mother,
she's you know, having I don't know how much of
the nacho she ate.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
She could have just had one, but still she did
have a nacho. So well done you.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
But again, just to counteract your point a little bit too,
it's you know, people are getting paid to look like this.
It's unnatural to look like that, you know. So I
remember it coming out that models were doing the orange
juice and cotton wool thing. You do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I do so for those who.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Aren't familiar, it came out that some there was a
trend among models, and I think I don't know if
Victoria Beckham was accused of this. I feel like her
name is ringing a bell as I'm talking to about this,
But basically to keep themselves full but still maintain or whatever,
like not pass out, they would dip orange juice in
(35:33):
cotton buds and swallow it because you're I mean, yeah,
cotton balls, because you could your body can digest it.
And it was it was just horrific to find out
that that's the length that people go to look a
certain way.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, it's all.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
When Beyonce was getting ready for it's in the documentary.
I can't remember which tour she was getting ready for,
but one of them, and she admitted to drinking water
with maple syrup in it, and that's it to keep
up her energy instead of food because she wanted to
look good. I think it was for Coachella or something.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, exactly. So I still think that it's quite problematic
that we reward the skinny aesthetic. Still like Adele again,
we talked about this, but when her when she did
the whole weight loss thing, her career and everything exploded
Mindy Kaling, you know, open about ozembic and things, her
(36:27):
career exploded again, not that it wasn't exploding, but it exploded.
And classic example Nicole Ritchie. I remember I watched a
clip of her now handling, you know, from back then,
but it was recently of her on the on a
you know, red carpet talking about people were saying, Okay,
(36:47):
so you're the bigger one in the simple life, how
do you handle criticism? And I'm looking at her and
I'm like, like, she was just not big at all
to begin with, but she was branded as like I
still remember it as like the fat one and Paris
Hilton's fat friend, and it's and you know, and obviously
(37:09):
Nicole developed a very severe eating disorder after that, and
that was around Heroin sheet times. So it's just concerning
that this is literally twenty years on. I just thought
we would be further along from this because the important thing,
it's I cannot talk about eating disorders and health and
(37:30):
bodies without mentioning this really important thing that people don't
realize this, but eating disorders are the most fatal mental
health condition anyone can have, and this is because you
literally can die from this. I don't I want to
emphasize that point because it's one of the hardest mental
health conditions to recover from because you're not getting the nutrition,
(37:52):
so you're not thinking right, your brain's not operating correctly,
you're fatigued. There's so many factors that go involved in
this is why you know a lot of clinicians, psychologists, counselors,
social workers. You know, it's a very careful area we
need to be in because the lethality of eating disorders
is so much higher than any other mental health conditions.
(38:15):
So you know, that's why these conversations are so important,
so so important.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, I think I agree with everything you just said,
and I think it was just a bit disappointing from
my perspective to see that that narrative and content is
still being put out there when we should just not
be talking about it.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, exactly, but again, it's still such a touchy thing.
You cannot win being honest about what you eat. You
cannot win eating the burgers and fries sort of showing
oh hey, I've got a balance, perhaps diet.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I don't think there's a win win anything, you know.
So I think it's sad that we've come further than
what we were, but there's still so much to go.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I agree. I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground,
and I just want to finish by saying, did you
enjoy the twenty twenty four Victoria's Secret Fashion Show?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
I'm going to admit that I did, because it was
really kind of refreshing to see, you know, there's a
funness to it and Tyler and the wings, like it's
meant to be fun, and so it's hard to not
get caught up in the funness of it, you know.
And that's the thing. It's really hard to like make
(39:29):
something fun so political. But at the end of the day,
when we're talking about something that affects millions of women
and it's actually linked to a mental health condition that's
so lethal, it's kind of hard not to have this conversation.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I can take it for what it is in terms
of being able to enjoy it as some fun, lighthearted entertainment,
bopping along to some cool songs while you know, watching
some models walk down the runway. But the more you
get into it, the more messy it seems to get.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, exactly exactly. So I would love to have like
a business breakdown of what was the purpose of this
or why, you know, why are they doing it like this?
I would I would just love the like the logistics
or be behind the scenes in the business meeting of like, hey, guys,
we're bringing it back in twenty twenty four. Here's some ideas.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, I'm completely perplexed as to what next year
will look like, but you know what, bring it on.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
I'm not wait
Apoge Production. Welcome to Millennials Need Therapy, where we unpacked
some of the most unhinged moments and cultural chaos that
left an entire generation in dire need of some serious therapy.
I'm your co host, Phoebe Parsons, a pointer Central millennial
(00:25):
who was raised on the Internet and uses means as
a genuine coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm Sheena. I'm a licensed therapist and burnout expert who
is here to attempt to help every millennial stuck in
an existential crisis try and make sense.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Of it all. Today we're in therapy a body image.
The Victoria's Secret Fashion Show was once the highlight of
my entire year. I would even call it the female
super Bowl of our generation until twenty nineteen when it
was canceled for its lack of diversity. Well it's back, baby,
(01:04):
and it brought with it a couple of NEPO babies,
Tyra Banks and a plus sized bra an alleged diversity.
But is this a redemption arc or is it just
capitalism in a g string? Okay, I've been dying to
talk to you about this for a whole week now,
and we are finally having the conversation. We have to
(01:25):
talk about the Victorious Secret Fashion Show because I honestly
feel like for millennial women in particular, the Victorious Secret
Fashion Show is like our version of the Super Bowl,
Like it's it was what we looked forward to all year.
We couldn't wait to watch the show, Like I distinctly
remember being in late high school, early UNI watching it
with my girlfriends, Like it was such an iconic show,
(01:47):
not even just for the models, but for like the
halftime performers, the diamond bras, like the closing of the
show with the most extravagant pair of angle wings, like
angle wings, angel wings, Like it was such an iconic
part of our I think growing up. And then the
show in twenty nineteen got canned for being the lack
(02:07):
of a better word, a bit tone deaf, and there
was real lack of diversity and inclusivity in terms of body, gender, race.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
You know, all of the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
And I want to chat to you today about whether
or not we think the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show twenty
twenty four is a bit of a redemption of or
whether it's a PS done and we just have so
much to unpack.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh I cannot wait. So let's get into the questions
because I feel like there's there's so many angles of
this right and it has been all over my feet,
all over my TikTok, my Instagram, and I don't watch
much news or anything, but the little news I do
get has also been mentioning it. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
That is so funny. Did you watch it when it
was originally on.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I'm going to admit that I didn't really, but I
was my mum and I religiously I remember this growing up,
would watch the Miss World competitions. Okay, so, and they
were caught like they had that same vibe of like
having very famous pop stars on them and you know,
these extravagant outfits and yeah that it kind of had
(03:15):
the same feel and again you know the tone deafness.
They would get a lot of critiques around that.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So yeah, well, I feel like we're coming at it
from two good angles heat because I was so invested
in the Victoria's Secret fashion shows that I am the
first to admit that my phone background for a while
there was Candice Wepinol in a bikini because she was
like my body inspo and my alarm when I was
starting out in my fitness journey and I was trying
to wake up early to go to the gym.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Was Miranda her wouldn't hit snooze?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh feb Yeah, you were die hard fan.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I was a die hard fan.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So, as we know, the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show was
canned in twenty nineteen because of the lack of diversity
that we spoke about a little bit earlier, and what
we've seen now is the show being picked up again
and their attempt at diversity. So they did include some
tokenistic plus size models and I say that with Bunny
ears because in my opinion, they are mid size at best.
(04:12):
Clap well done because there were two transgender models, which
I think was great and something that we never would
have seen before. But something I wanted to talk about
first before we get into the body stuff was kind
of the NEPO baby takeover because when Victoria's Secret was
in its heyday, it was the be all, end all
of a model's career to finally get to the Victoria's
(04:35):
Secret Show and to become a Victoria's Secret Angel, and
models would work their entire careers to earn a pair
of angel wings.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yet this year what we saw on the.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Runway in the Angel Wings was a lot of NEPO babies.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, yeah, And it's such an interesting topic because, as
you say, you know, this is the pinnacle of someone
working for their whole career to get, you know, the wings.
So it was a really big deal back in the day.
Even though I didn't watch all the shows it was,
I remember it kind of being the pinnacle and Gizelle
(05:12):
kind of you know, that's that her image is still
in my brain. And you know, Heidi Klume like the
old school ones and Adriana Lima still looks the same somehow,
So I remember that. And I guess if we think
about this from other industries, imagine if a football are
just as like, oh here's my son, he's good at footy,
(05:32):
put him on the field, like we would not do
that again, comparing it to the Super Bowl. Right on
the flip side of that, I know, just straight up
just being honest. And we talked about this off air
briefly that I'm a mum, right and so if I
had an opportunity for my child given to me, I'm
(05:53):
taking it. So I can see both sides, Like from
a parent's side, you get it. It's more the organization
themselves that has to do it. But again, we don't
know behind this sings, because if I'm honest, one of
the things I was thinking about is this show had
a lot of people, a lot of celebrities, and I
(06:16):
was thinking, how are they affording this? Like how many
you know, items does Victoria's Secret have to sell to
actually pay for all of this? Like how is this
actually profitable as a business model? And so there is
a part of me that goes, if this is their
last hurrah that we don't know about. Maybe they're just
(06:38):
going all in. They're like, screw it, do whatever we want.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You're so right, because I think the dynamic has changed
a little bit in the celebrity sphere since the last
time we saw a Victoria's Secret show. Instagram influencers weren't
massive then. Online followings weren't as massive then, so it
was just your stereotypical supermodels. It was like the Miranda
cas Alessandra and Brosio, you know, Giselle Butschen like all
the beautiful, iconic supermodels. We wouldn't have followed them on
Instagram at that time. We would have had none of that.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
But now it's gig and Bella had did.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Heidi Klum's daughter, Johnny Depp's daughter, like it's literally like
the rich kids of Instagram just all over this runway.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, exactly. So it's it's mixed. It's really interesting. But
I can I can understand that if I was a
model and I was working so hard to try and
make it and you see that happen, that that would
really sting, you know. And Miranda Kerr wasn't there. There's
a lot of talk about why wasn't she there? But
(07:37):
she's posted a video of her strutting her stuff with
the amazing hair, you know, that iconic kind of wave, Yeah,
the long hair, and it's kind of you know, people
are saying, is this a bit of a dig because
why wasn't she in the show? If all these other
nebo babies are still in the show, like the og,
she should be there.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Although I do remember hearing a little bit of controversy
about Mirandako when she did become an angel. I heard
I think she was one of the highest paid angels
she got. I think there was a bit of controversy
when she got gifted the diamond wings one year and
I think a lot of the older supermodels were a
little bit jealous perhaps that she was young and more
(08:20):
up and coming at the time, and she was given
the honor of wearing the big expensive hundreds of thousands
of dollars of diamond wings. So there could be a
little bit of a female tip going on behind the
scenes there too.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah. We honestly, there's so much that goes on behind
the scenes from a business perspective, like I just sort
of mentioned, from a politics perspective, from celebrities, like who's
got the most pull in this kind of brand as well?
You know, but I correct me if I'm wrong. But
I also vaguely remember something about Miranda Kerr being really young,
(08:55):
like eighteen or nineteen or something, and this is a
lingerie brand, so I don't know if it was her
or another model, but it was almost like fresh eighteen
being a lingerie model, you know, And like, I don't know,
you know, there's there's some stuff around that as well,
of like how young. And you know, again, if this
(09:18):
is the idolization of beauty, why is this? Ifn't this
and their average consumer is not going to be eighteen,
maybe they're older, Why are we modeling after an eighteen
year old's body.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I also didn't see any Love Pink in this year's show.
You know how they normally have the Victoria's Secret and
the Love Pink, and the Love Pink is the younger, cheekier,
kind of more sporty version of Victoria.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So I didn't know. This is like a sub brand
of Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Ah, I didn't see any of that this year.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Who knows. So there's something going on, but it's it
felt very out of the blue. I don't know this
this whole big thing.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Do I feel exactly the same way. I feel like
it was only a couple of weeks ago there now
it's like, hey, guess what the Victoria's Secret fashion shows
back and then boom it was on and now it's
over again again.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And we don't know the business behind the scenes of it.
Like again, this could be a big lass hoorrah, Let's
throw everything at it and see if we can make
this brand profitable again. Who knows. I don't know how
the lingerie industry is going as a whole, but retail
as a whole is struggling, particularly you know Victoria's Secret.
I remember the stores being a big part and you know.
(10:27):
I guess what we know from a business perspective is
shopping center stores are really not as profitable as they
used to be because the rent is so high, and
so you know, people are talking about a shopping center
is even going to be a thing in the future,
which is kind of sad and kind of scary. It's
got to smell. I feel like the Victoria's Secret stores
(10:49):
had a smell. I don't know if it was a
candle or like a.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Purpose a body spray, because I had the body spray
because remember when Victoria's Again and its Heyday, They had
Victoria's Secret Stores at basically every airport, and it was
always the cool thing to do when you were at
the airport was to pop in and buy I think
they did like the red for thirty dollars underwear and
like some Body's Brains and lipgloss, and it was like
so cool to go into Victoria's Secret or buy a
makeup bag or something small that you could afford.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Oh yeah, And I feel like as a teenager it
felt naughty, but it felt cool, like oh, I'm in
a lingerie store, like specifically, like I'm not a target
with my mum buying a bra and.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Walking around with that little pink bag was such a
status symbol.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I know, and they had the whole I feel like
they had a collaboration with Playboy. You know, it's all
coming back to me now because remember how the Playboy
thing was a really big thing when we were growing up,
like the Bunny years, and yes, all of that as well.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
I want to talk about the comeback and kind of
the glow up and the response this year, and how
they kind of pivoted from the reason they were canceled
in the first place, which was, as we touched on earlier,
the lack of diversity. So as I said before, they
are advocating for that kind of everybody is beautiful kind
of mentality that the world seems to have shifted, and
(12:06):
truth be told, I didn't see a whole lot of
diversity on the runway, and I think there were a
lot of the same body types being shown on that catwalk.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
And on that runway.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
They did have the two transgender models, which I think
was amazing. They did have two plus size models, Ashley Graham,
who I think it's almost a little bit tokenistic in
the way that she was used because she's mid size.
I would say at best, And I did actually read
that she was hesitant to accept the offer to walk
in this show because of the background and the conversations
(12:40):
that the Victoria's Secret Show and Bodies had in general.
So I just wonder how she feels now seeing the
backlash the show actually got.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, it'll be interesting. And you said there were two models?
Was it her and Tyra Banks or was there.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
An no, no, oh god, we'll get to tire Banks
in just a second. Note, it was Ashley Graham and
Paloma Alessa, who again I would say that she's also
mid size. But the other interesting thing about the mid
size walkers was they weren't wearing lingerie like the other
girls were. Ashley Graham was wearing a night dress, so
we didn't see her stomach, we didn't see her bum,
We didn't see as much skin on them as we
(13:17):
did on the other goals, which in my opinion, isn't
showing us body diversity. It's covering up the body.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
The thing about Victoria's Secret is it is a consumer brand,
so it's interesting because they've got models wearing the clothes. Right,
So back in the day it was purely models. It
wasn't everyday people walking the runway, right, Whereas this year
because they've had celebrities and I don't know, it's a
bit of a mixed bag, because I think that's the
(13:47):
thing is that brands, like let's say Dior, for example,
if they're walking down twenty thousand dollar gowns, you know
this isn't for the everyday consumer. Victoria's secret is selling
cheap bras, So why do they not have more more
sort of models, like a mixture of the standard six
(14:10):
foot thousand meter model, but also you know, the shorter
models or the more standard body types. Right, It's really interesting.
I don't know, I don't know how I sit with it,
but this is fashion at the end of the day, too,
so I feel like fashion play by their own rules.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Look as someone who has naturally double D sized breasts,
and I really struggle to buy underwear and to buy bras.
I would like to see some bigger boobs on the runway.
And I don't think that's too much to ask when
you're looking at lingerie.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
No exactly, particularly because that is the type, right, and
also what does it look like on a shorter body,
because we all have different heights but also different types
of bodies as well. So again I've mentioned in another
episode that I'm more of an apple body type, and
then again there's criticism about calling body types fruits. Like
(15:03):
I feel like whatever you do, and even as we're
having this conversation, I'm very hesitant of the way I
word things because I think nowadays, whatever they these brands do,
they're going to get criticized one way or another. So
from a brand perspective, I can understand both sides of it,
(15:23):
even though we know there definitely should have been more diversity.
And one of the interesting things I guess about the
diversity aspect when we look at it from a race
perspective of like different races as well. A lot of
women of color are critiquing the fact that the hair
and makeup of the women of color was awful, so
(15:47):
that their natural hair texture wasn't emphasized. So you know,
if you have curly hair, and you know, for the
girls to do the curly girl method, I am not
one of them because it looks way too hectic. I
rather just straighten my hair and be done with it.
But it's part of an identity on like the hair
texture and embracing it and making it show, it's complete,
(16:10):
and the women who were women of color and actually
wore their hair curly and not slicked back and straight,
they were done wrong. Like a lot of people are
saying their hair was frizzy and it wasn't styled according
to that hair texture. So again, you know a lot
of African American women will have a specific hairdresser for
(16:30):
their hair texture because it's very different to Caucasian hair.
So again, you know, there's so many little intricacies and criticisms,
and again this is just to consume a brand. I
don't know, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I think that's how you can tell the difference though,
between when a business is using someone as a tokenistic
gesture as opposed to an authentic gesture. Because I even
remember this happening in Black Lives Matter. I have a
friend who is Indigenous and she's an Indigenous artist, and
all of a sudden, she was approached by twenty five
fast fashion Australian brands asking her to collab with them,
(17:09):
and they were using that as a tokenistic gesture to say, hey,
look at us, We're employing Indigenous artists to do a
collaboration because we care.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
You don't care.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
You're trying to jump on a bandwagon to prove a point.
And that's almost what this feels like. By putting women
like that in the Victoria's Secret Show, they're doing it
to tick a diversity box as opposed to making them
feel and look incredible as who they are.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Okay, we need to talk about Tyra Banks because her
closing the Art show was absolutely iconic. But I have
two standpoints on this one. The first one is Tyra Banks,
aka the host and creator of America's Next Top Model,
which was one of the most problematic shows in history
where she was essentially the queen of fat shaming. All
(17:59):
of a sudden, she is now closing the Victorious Secret
Fashion Show as a plus sized mod, all telling us
all to embrace our curves. Tyra, Babe, the math ain't
math and right now.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And I think what's happening is that she hasn't acknowledged
it first. And what's even more interesting is others aren't
calling her out on it like as the public we are.
But she was on an interview for The Drew Barrymore
Show and she did not get called out on it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's I was actually disappointed and Drew for not calling
her out, because Drew normally does ask very honest questions.
I was actually really disappointed she didn't. But in saying that,
I feel like maybe Tyra has a very strict PR
team who has said exactly what you can and can't
ask her.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, exactly. But I think I'm two cited on it too,
because I'm very big on I really want to support
people to change their mind on anything at any time.
You know, I could have opinion today, realize that I'm wrong,
and change my opinion tomorrow, and you should, you know,
I should be supported in the fact that I'm open
minded and changing. However, Tyra has not done that, so
(19:09):
you know, for example, if I've done you know, this
is a bad example. But I feel cringey even bringing
it up. But again, when I was younger, celebrating Australia
Day without recognizing that you know, it's harmful, and before
we were educated on how that might hurt that day
to some people, and then making a decision about whether
(19:31):
or not I will celebrate that day, which is another discussion,
but it's it's something where you can acknowledge I used
to believe in something and now after being educated on
it in times have changed, I can grow from that.
I think that's the problem is you need to acknowledge, Okay,
I stuffed up, rather than just moving on and pretending
(19:52):
like nothing happened.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I'm really glad that you use that example, because when
you know better, you do better. And Tyra was just
as heavily influenced in that heroin Chic era that we
all were, so she didn't know better at the time,
and it wasn't shocking to us at the time to
see that. And I went back this morning and watch
some America's Next Top Model clips and I was religious
about watching that show. And at the time I wouldn't
(20:16):
have flinched, But now when I watch it, I have
an actual visceral reaction and I'm like, WHOA, can you
imagine that happening now?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
No, you can't.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
So I don't have an issue with her walking in
the show as a proud plus sized woman, because when
you know better, you do better. I think it's the
fact that she didn't acknowledge what had happened in the past.
And I think the Australia Day thing is a perfect
example because I'm the same, all of my friends are
the same if you scroll back on our Facebook albums
(20:45):
like even Til you Know twenty eleven, we're all out
of barbecues together with Australia flag tattoos on our face,
drinking beers out of Australia cups and things like that
because we didn't know any better at the time.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
We weren't educated on it.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
But now we are we can look back and say, oh,
you know, I've changed my mind, and.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I'm wholehearted with you.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I think it's part of the human experience to make mistakes,
and that's when the education piece comes up, and it's
so important. And with someone who is as iconic as
Tyra Banks to so many young millennial women, I think
she did have a responsibility to own it and confess
it and actually apologize.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. Absolutely, because I understand that it was of the
time and I get you of that as well. But
you can see how hurtful her comments were to some
of the contestants. And again I feel like I remember
the show branding them as brats if they didn't want
to cut their hair, or they didn't want to take
(21:45):
their nails off, or they didn't want to you know,
I just it's sorry. I'm getting cringees coming back to me.
Remember when they did like an episode where they're going
to do different races, like dress up as different races.
Do you remember that? That was like a modeling episode off.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
So you know what, I think, I do? You know what?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
There was also a spinoff, America's Next Missing Top Model,
and it was about amputees, like there was so much
wrong with that shop.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I'm literally gasping as you tell me that, because I
know I can't. I don't even know where to start,
but I guess, yeah, this is such an interesting topic
because you know, again, I think the Australia Day example
is interesting because let's say, you know, we're still podcasting
in fifty years together bebes, and so god knows how
(22:35):
old will be, we'll both be, you know, around eighty
five with our past tea or whatever. But you know,
it'd be interesting if our Facebook albums of us with
the Australian flag, who God knows it'll be changed by then.
But you know, if that came out and we were
expected to do a formal apology, like it would be
(22:58):
really interesting because again, as younger people, we kind of
were part of the and the ethos. It's just really interesting.
It's really easy to call this out on people with
big profiles and celebrities because I think after you know,
I do a lot of like behind the scenes work
with people who may be a little bit higher profile
(23:20):
or their businesses or the people they work with in media,
and something that when I first started working with I
guess higher profile people that surprised me is you would
think they have a huge PR team, but you know,
and obviously Tyra would, but sometimes people don't, and so
they're making these calls off their friends judgment of all
(23:43):
of this, you know. So I think it's just really
interesting that a lot of the time, everyday people end
up being you know, a leader or a celebrity, and
we would all have to navigate it and figure it
out too, like what would be my response, How would
I manage this? And if I don't have a big, formal,
(24:04):
high regrets, high level PR team, what the hell would
I say and do I'm always going to piss somebody off.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I also think that vulnerability and honesty inspire change and
inspire you to look in at your own life. And
I feel like if someone with her status went on
the record and apologize for that. It would inspire so
many people to do the same, not necessarily about being
mongering and fat shaming and things like that, but it
does make you reflect about your own beliefs and things
that you've done differently in the past that you have
(24:33):
a different view on now, And I think that's a
really healthy narrative to just have in general.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, definitely, And it is an uncomfortable one too, Like,
I'm still feeling uncomfortable about us admitting this stuff around
Australia Day because on the flip side of that, there
are a lot of people who still celebrate it and
think the other way and go, why should we change
the date? And you know, you're a bit too much
of a lefty if you're even thinking that. Like, it's
(25:01):
just an uncomfortable conversation all round, because it's to be
people who have no issue with it and think it's
all being blown out of proportion. There's going to be
people who are going, I'm so glad Sheena and Phoebia
having this conversation and admitting this. You know, it's a
really interesting time for brands, for businesses, like you know,
(25:22):
Victoria's Secret, for celebrities involved with this because of that
cancer culture, because they're all trying to scramble to go
what what is the majority of people sitting with? What's okay?
What's not? Because again, who knows, Like maybe you know
this is awful to think about, But the main target
(25:44):
market for Victoria's Secret is the US market, and there's
super right wing people who don't really like diversity, and
then on the other side there's super left wing people
who really want diversity. So as a brand and a business,
if you think of it from that perspective that they're
not a not for profit, they're not a government agency
(26:07):
trying to advocate for change. They're literally just a business.
Who were they trying to cater to.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
It's yeah, it's such a big discussion. Something else I
wanted to talk about was the narrative around food because
this is something that I think just warrants a bit
of conversation because as someone who struggled with eating disorders
in the past, I find what I eat in a
day content incredibly triggering and it's something I've actively had
to like unsubscribe from to get out of my algorithms
(26:38):
and my feeds because back in the day I was
obsessed with reading celebrities what I eat in a days
and I think that so many women can relate to this.
And I remember there was a I think the website's
still around, but there's not an Australian version anymore called
pop Sugar, and about three times a week that released
a Day on My Plate with a celebrity or an
influencer or someone like that. And I was just obsessed
(26:59):
and I took that literally. I thought that everything that
they were actually admitting to was like that they were
actually eating it. And the other day I stumbled on
a what I Eaten a day on the day of
the Victoria's Secret Show as a Victoria's Secret Angel, and
I sent you this clip, and I just think, oh.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I've really got to brace myself. This she said.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
For breakfast, she has a march A latte, some eggs
on toast whatever. The lunch she had a burger and fries,
which I don't care if you eat that in your
day to day, but there is no way in hell
you are honestly eating that on the day of the
Victoria's Secret Fashion Show. And I think that is such
an irresponsible thing to put out there to your audience.
(27:46):
Who is probably young women.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Absolutely, It's really tricky because you know, a lot of
this starts as orthorexia. So orthorexia is when people are
getting obsessive about their health, so obsessive about calories. How
many steps did I get to the point where they're
ignoring friends and family and all of this sort of stuff, right, so,
(28:12):
and ignoring other parts of what makes them healthy psychologically, socially, spiritually, whatever.
They're sacrificing it all just for health or food or whatever.
It seemingly starts healthy. And this is the tricky part
with eating disorders is most if you look at the
trajectory for most young women and eating disorders, it's I
(28:35):
just want to eat a little bit healthier. I just
want to train a little bit more. And it's just
this kind of content is very triggering around eating disorders,
and you know that burger and fries stuff just really
annoys me. But it's such an interesting topic because we
(28:55):
did talk about so Adrianna Lima was really honest. I
couldn't find the clip. I was trying to find it
so I could send it to you, but she was
really honest about the fact that she doesn't really eat
much the week of and she will drink a lot
of water. And I guess in some ways, you know,
the body building community, they're very honest about what goes
into competition day, which literally is very similar to the
(29:19):
Victoria's Secret thing of On competition pay day, people pass
out from dehydration. They're literally getting IV drips right after
they get off stage. You know, they're doing all sorts
of crazy things to shed that last little bit to
look as toned as possible, and they're really open and
(29:40):
honest about it.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
I think the body building community are very like, this
is what I eat in the two weeks to competition day.
And I think this is where it's problematic, is that
people think that they live their life like that, you know,
But on the flip side of it, I don't. It's
sort of like, are we showing people that this is
what you should look like every single day? Because even
(30:03):
bodybuilders will admit I own I only ever look like that,
My abs only ever look like that on competition day.
They do not look like that in everyday life. So
that's the thing. I think there's this unrealistic expectation of, oh,
that's what my body, my body should look like every day.
I think that's where it feeds into eating disorders, because
(30:24):
these models are literally admitting to almost having eating disorder
habits to look like that on what we would consider
competition day.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
I'm really glad you said that because that is the
exact way I likened it to as well. I've gotten
many friends who've done bikini competitions and bodybuilding shows, and
I've got my best friends a professional boxer, which is
a weightcut sport. So I've been around a lot of
people who are doing weightcutting and comp prepping. And the
minimum time that a bikini comp or bodybuilder will prep
(30:53):
for their stage weight is probably fourteen weeks minimum absolute minimum.
They are tracking their macros, their calories, everything, and the
two weeks. And the reason I'm so angry about the
burger and fries comment is because they're not eating especially
sodium or anything like that in the in the you know,
(31:14):
the day of, or the lead up too, because it's
so bloating. And I think, on one hand, I could
see what she was trying to do by trying to
maybe be a positive role model for people looking at
her and being like, hey, I'm a model and I
used to eat burger and fries. But also don't lie
and say that you had a burger and fries and
all the rest of it that day and then you
(31:35):
went on stage looking like you did, because that's not
an accurate representation, and that's gonna plant a seed in
so many people's heads of why if I eat a
burger and fries, I don't look like that. And you know,
it's just I mean, it's such a big conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
It really is. But again, I think it comes back
to it is such a touchy subject and you can't
win with honesty and you can't win lying either. So
I remember we also spoke about Bethany Frankel recently shared
a video of the fact, you know, she shared something
(32:12):
like how do I eat so much food and I'm
still skinny or whatever, And she was very open and
honest where you know, because she travels so many places
and obviously a lot of brands sponsor her and all
that sort of stuff, so wherever she goes, she'll try
a hot dog or cookies, and she was honest about
the fact that I have a little bit of everything,
(32:33):
but I don't eat the whole thing. Ever, so it's
almost like she's saying, I get to taste of these things,
but I don't eat it, and that's how I stay skinny.
And it again mixed reviews everywhere because on the one hand,
she's being honest about what it takes to look like that.
(32:54):
On the flip side of that, I know nature paths
and nutritionist and anyone who works with eating disorders really
discourages that kind of eating because life's about enjoyment and
food is part of that enjoyment. So saying oh, I'm
only going to enjoy life a touch, that's kind of
(33:15):
what you're saying when you do those sorts of things, right,
So she was getting it from everywhere, but at least
she was open and honest, you know, and I think
honesty is the best policy. But also if you have
to have eating disorder habits, things that people with genuine
eating disorders do to be unhealthy, if that's what it
(33:40):
takes you to fit the aesthetic, we've definitely got something wrong.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Also, remembering they're getting paid millions of dollars to walk
in this show, so they are literally getting paid to
look like that. It's a literal job for them, So
they're making I suppose the sacrifices they need to make
in order to I don't know, get that paycheck that week.
And I am going to say this though, and this
is probably contradicting everything I just said. I distinctly remember
(34:07):
I worked at Australian Fashion Week. It would have been
probably around two thousand and twelve, twenty thirteen, and Alessandra
Ambrosio was there, and she was walking in the Alex
Perry show as she was quite recently postpartum. Australian Fashion
Week is very different to a Victoria's Secret Fashion show.
She wasn't wearing bikini. She was wearing dresses and blouses
(34:29):
and pants and the rest of it. And I saw
her eating nacho's backstage. Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, well done.
I actually took a photo of it, which I probably
still have in the cloud somewhere. I don't know if
I can find it, but I did see that, and
I was like, wow, that's incredible. She's a breastbeeding mother,
she's you know, having I don't know how much of
the nacho she ate.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
She could have just had one, but still she did
have a nacho. So well done you.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
But again, just to counteract your point a little bit too,
it's you know, people are getting paid to look like this.
It's unnatural to look like that, you know. So I
remember it coming out that models were doing the orange
juice and cotton wool thing. You do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I do so for those who.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Aren't familiar, it came out that some there was a
trend among models, and I think I don't know if
Victoria Beckham was accused of this. I feel like her
name is ringing a bell as I'm talking to about this,
But basically to keep themselves full but still maintain or whatever,
like not pass out, they would dip orange juice in
(35:33):
cotton buds and swallow it because you're I mean, yeah,
cotton balls, because you could your body can digest it.
And it was it was just horrific to find out
that that's the length that people go to look a
certain way.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, it's all.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
When Beyonce was getting ready for it's in the documentary.
I can't remember which tour she was getting ready for,
but one of them, and she admitted to drinking water
with maple syrup in it, and that's it to keep
up her energy instead of food because she wanted to
look good. I think it was for Coachella or something.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, exactly. So I still think that it's quite problematic
that we reward the skinny aesthetic. Still like Adele again,
we talked about this, but when her when she did
the whole weight loss thing, her career and everything exploded
Mindy Kaling, you know, open about ozembic and things, her
(36:27):
career exploded again, not that it wasn't exploding, but it exploded.
And classic example Nicole Ritchie. I remember I watched a
clip of her now handling, you know, from back then,
but it was recently of her on the on a
you know, red carpet talking about people were saying, Okay,
(36:47):
so you're the bigger one in the simple life, how
do you handle criticism? And I'm looking at her and
I'm like, like, she was just not big at all
to begin with, but she was branded as like I
still remember it as like the fat one and Paris
Hilton's fat friend, and it's and you know, and obviously
(37:09):
Nicole developed a very severe eating disorder after that, and
that was around Heroin sheet times. So it's just concerning
that this is literally twenty years on. I just thought
we would be further along from this because the important thing,
it's I cannot talk about eating disorders and health and
(37:30):
bodies without mentioning this really important thing that people don't
realize this, but eating disorders are the most fatal mental
health condition anyone can have, and this is because you
literally can die from this. I don't I want to
emphasize that point because it's one of the hardest mental
health conditions to recover from because you're not getting the nutrition,
(37:52):
so you're not thinking right, your brain's not operating correctly,
you're fatigued. There's so many factors that go involved in
this is why you know a lot of clinicians, psychologists, counselors,
social workers. You know, it's a very careful area we
need to be in because the lethality of eating disorders
is so much higher than any other mental health conditions.
(38:15):
So you know, that's why these conversations are so important,
so so important.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, I think I agree with everything you just said,
and I think it was just a bit disappointing from
my perspective to see that that narrative and content is
still being put out there when we should just not
be talking about it.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, exactly, but again, it's still such a touchy thing.
You cannot win being honest about what you eat. You
cannot win eating the burgers and fries sort of showing
oh hey, I've got a balance, perhaps diet.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I don't think there's a win win anything, you know.
So I think it's sad that we've come further than
what we were, but there's still so much to go.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I agree. I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground,
and I just want to finish by saying, did you
enjoy the twenty twenty four Victoria's Secret Fashion Show?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
I'm going to admit that I did, because it was
really kind of refreshing to see, you know, there's a
funness to it and Tyler and the wings, like it's
meant to be fun, and so it's hard to not
get caught up in the funness of it, you know.
And that's the thing. It's really hard to like make
(39:29):
something fun so political. But at the end of the day,
when we're talking about something that affects millions of women
and it's actually linked to a mental health condition that's
so lethal, it's kind of hard not to have this conversation.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I can take it for what it is in terms
of being able to enjoy it as some fun, lighthearted entertainment,
bopping along to some cool songs while you know, watching
some models walk down the runway. But the more you
get into it, the more messy it seems to get.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, exactly exactly. So I would love to have like
a business breakdown of what was the purpose of this
or why, you know, why are they doing it like this?
I would I would just love the like the logistics
or be behind the scenes in the business meeting of like, hey, guys,
we're bringing it back in twenty twenty four. Here's some ideas.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, I'm completely perplexed as to what next year
will look like, but you know what, bring it on.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
I'm not wait
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com