February 16, 2025 • 27 mins
Are hair vitamins and collagen supplements really the secret to longer, thicker hair—or just clever marketing? In this episode of FIT(ish), host Phoebe Parsons sits down with trichologist Chelcey Salinger to separate science from scams in the world of hair growth products. From celebrity-endorsed gummies & vitamins to expensive collagen powders, Chelcey breaks down what actually works, what’s a total waste of money, and how to truly support healthy hair. If you’ve ever wondered whether those supplements in your cart are legit, this episode is a must-listen.
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Find out more about Chelcey Salinger on instagram here
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apodjay Production. Welcome to fit Ish. I'm Phoebe Parsons and
this is the podcast that proves that you don't have
to choose between staying fit and having fun. Welcome to
the podcast. Chelsea's Salinger are Tricologists. You are the first
trichologists I've ever had on and I've been dying to
(00:27):
talk to someone about this for years and I'm so
glad I have finally found you.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Oh, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So I want to talk to you today about hair
supplements and just what is scams versus science, because I
feel like anyone who has social media will be well
aware the amount of shit that gets pushed by influencers
on oral hair supplements, oral like you know, hair sprays everything.
There is just so much in the market promising hair growth,
(00:57):
thicker hair, all of this stuff. But I just want
to know what is worth the hype and what is
worth a scam.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
So right, I can't even tell you how many patients
that I have to discuss this with that come into
my clinic because they're taking some random hair, skin, and
nails supplement and as we'll discuss, you know, it doesn't
work for them and we have to go explain why,
And there's a couple of reasons.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, so there's three I want to kind of cover.
I've broken them into little category. So the first one
is kind of the oral supplements and the hair vitamins.
The second one is the hair oils with those round
scalp massaging brushes that I've seen everywhere lately. And then
secondly is like the collagen kind of supplements, the hair
skin nails kind of supplements. So, just before we kick off,
(01:45):
what do you think are currently the biggest scams or
the most overhyped trends in the hair industry right now?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Oh, right now, it would have to be the collagen supplements,
which you've already mentioned. I have so many patients come
in to see me who tell me that they're taking it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm just going to jump ahead and talk.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
About why why they they don't work. And the reason
is that, basically, collagen is a type of protein. So
people kind of assume like, oh, well, hare is protein
mainly protein as well, so you know, can't I just
have the collagen and send it over here? And it
doesn't work like that. Whenever we consume any kind of protein,
(02:24):
it gets broken down into its individual amino acids, and
amino acids the building box of protein, and then those
amino acids get sent wherever they are needed in the body.
So maybe it's for hormone creation, or maybe it's in
muscle repair or tissue repair, but we don't get to
dictate where those amino acids are sent. And so basically,
(02:46):
these people could have eaten any kind of protein and
it would have had the same effect. The only time
when something like the collagen supplement, you know, someone might
report that it worked for them, would have been the
case where someone was protein deficient before taking that. But again,
they could have taken any kind of protein and the
same thing would have occurred.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I have literally never thought about it like that, But
when you break it down so simply, it makes complete sense.
It's like the scams for period pain specific neurofin and
in my head I see it and I'm like, okay, okay,
this neuropin is trained to go straight to my uterus.
That's not how it works, Like if only there was
a bill that did that.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
When it comes to the other you know hair supplements
that you mentioned, basically they tend to be more like
a multi vitamin, multi mineral and they're just hoping to
hit upon something that you are deficient in. But again,
I take issue with this for a number of reasons.
Number One, they only work if you were deficient in
that thing that happens to contain, so a lot of
(03:50):
times people are taking something they weren't deficient in it,
so it makes no difference. Second is that they're generally
not a great enough dose to actually increase a deficiency.
So let's say that it does contain some iron and
someone was deficient iron and that's what was leading to
their hair loss. Well, often these hair supplements don't actually
(04:10):
contain enough iron to sort out a deficiency, so again
you still don't get there with solving the problem. But
the thing that actually drives me the craziest about these
supplements is that they sometimes put ingredients in their minerals
that actually block each other's absorption. So the big one
that I see a lot of is iron and zinc.
(04:31):
Both of them are key nutrients for the hair. So
I guess the people making these supplements go, oh, I know,
and consumers maybe know, oh, iron is really important for hair,
so let's put that in there.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Zinc.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Zinc is important for hair. Too, let's put that in there.
But these two minerals block each other's absorption and inhibit
each other, so it's a waste of time. It's so
irritating when I see that that you'd be surprised how
many supplements that the targeting hair have these two things
in it.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So it's literally just praying on our vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, it's so frustrating.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
I mean, my advice to anyone when it comes to
this side of things with a supplementation is if you
suspect that something is a bit low, then have a
blood test, see a tricologist, and let's pinpoint specifically what
is the problem, what's deficient, and then supplement that hard
so we move you away from that deficiency as quickly
(05:26):
as possible. Just for your listener, listeners reference some of
the key nutrients their hair that commonly can get a
bit low and then impact hair growth. So iron, yes, zinc,
Vitamin D is a really important one, and also B twelve.
They're probably my big four that can relate to hair loss.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So if someone is eating like a really healthy, well balanced,
well rounded diet and they're not deficient in anything, they
don't actually need to be doing any of this was
funny stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Essentially this would not do anything for them.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, I was going to say, majority of people take
these either to get longer hair faster, or to get
kind of that thicker kind of Victoria's secret hair, which
firstly is hair extensions. It's not actual hair, as is
most influencers hair. I'd actually love to see an influencer
who was pushing this stuff who didn't have extensions in
their hair for a start. But is it kind of
like the same concept as spot reduction. You know, when
(06:21):
you hear someone say this burns fat from your thighs,
that's not how fat burning works. Again, It's not like
one exercise is going to remove the fat just from
one particular area of your body in that same way.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
So true, And you just prompted my memory when you
were talking about the look of some of these influencers
that are pushing these supplements, etc. I've seen this gets
advertised to me a lot as a trichologist who I
see along my social media as well, and for someone
who's trained to look. I look at the people who
are selling these things, and often you know they've got
(06:57):
you know, the gorgeous people. Their hair is down to
their backside and they're selling something for hair growth or
hand length. Now you need to know that the average anergen,
which is the growing phase of the hair growth cycle
for most people, is about four years. The people that
are selling you things on social media, they are unusual
(07:17):
in that their growth cycle is probably like seven years
eight years. So it's not normal to be able to
grow your head to that length. Your anergen phase is
whatever it genetically was predetermined to be. There is nothing
you can do about that. You're never going to get
hair down to your bottom if you've never had hair
(07:39):
down to your bottom.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
But it does have to be said that what the.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Goal is then is to not have your anergen cut
short for other reasons. So if you did have a
nutritional deficiency, your energen phase gets cut short, or if
you're experiencing some of the other types of hair loss like
genetic thinning, the anergen phase the growing face also gets
cut short. And so that's when I see people who
are saying that come in and I say, oh, my hair,
(08:05):
it could never get past this certain length. Well, it's
more about delving into the problems, not throwing random things
at the situation, and that the people you're looking at
that are advertising to your social media are lucky genetically,
they're unusual. That's not the standard.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Oh my god. I know I keep throwing everything back
to likening to health and fitness, but I think that's
what's so relatable on this podcast. So it's kind of
like when you look at a supermodel like Giselle Buchen
and her body. Obviously you have to be very genetically
blessed to look like that to start with, not discounting
the fact that she would stay fit and healthy, but
it's not realistic to think that if you did her
exact training regime and ate exactly what she ate in
(08:47):
the day, you're not going to look like that, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Exactly. That's it.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Genetics has a lot, you know, at play here.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So is there a like scientifically backed ingredient or something
that is a bit of a green flag that is worked,
like sorry, backed by science if someone were looking for
a product that's not just a scam.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, there are a few different things that I guess
FDA approved when it comes to hair loss and things
that have evidence. Now there's a couple of medications, but
if we're talking about natural things, so some of those
people are looking for natural alternatives. Then I do have
a couple of favorite ingredients I guess that I think
(09:28):
do have evidence that I might suggest to someone. But again,
this is only if you're experiencing a problem. If you
don't have a problem, again, it's no point in throwing
these things at it. But if you're experiencing particularly you know,
some thinning in the center on top, then I would
be looking at maybe topical caffeine. There's some good studies
(09:49):
for that. And also the herbs saw palmetto, which blocks
some of the conversion of testosterone to the strong testosterone
in the skin, and that's what can make their heads
thin on top if you're experiencing that type of hair loss.
So those two ingredients are quite good, but I mean
they have evidence at a certain strength and percentage. And
I do note that sometimes you know, companies aren't aren't
(10:13):
telling us what the strength is of the caffeine in
their product.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
You just know. I thought it might be interesting for
you to know.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I thought, oh, I'm going to see if I can
have compounded a product that contains the correct evidence based
percentage of caffeine in it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And it made me think.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
That maybe other products possibly don't use the enough caffeine
because the caffeine tended to pull at the bottom of
the serum, and so you would need less caffeine than
the evidence based percentage for it to you know, look
nice or appealing as a product. And so yeah, in
that situation, they had to shake it to disperse it correctly.
(10:50):
But you have to wonder or hope, I hope that
these topical serums, et cetera are using the evidence based
percentages that you know, some people aren't getting what they're
paying for.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Oh absolutely, I think especially when people are putting things
not even just on their scalp, but on their eyelashes
and their eyebrows around their eyes. Like I again, it's
like the lash growth serum, the brow growth serum, and
caster oil. Everyone is going mad for cast oil, right.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Caster oil is on my dislike list, So there's zero
zero evidence for cast oil in hair growth. But what
is worse about it is it's cometogenic, which means pimple forming.
So the oil makes you more likely to get spots,
et cetera. On your scalp. Scalps just skin, just like
(11:41):
your face. And so I really dislike the use of
cast oil and just think it's a waste of time.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I guess the.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oil that does have a bit of evidence in more
so genetic thinning is the rosemary oil. There's a little
bit of evidence for that, but I think again you
have to know the circumstance around the evidence, so that
wouldn't be you know, my go to prescription for some
rosemary oil. And in the study is that they did
on rosemary oil for hair, they compared it to monoxideal topically.
(12:12):
Now that's one of the evidence based treatment options monoxidal,
but five percent monoxidal is the standard treatment for hair loss,
and they compared the rosemary with two percent monoxideal So
ready you're comparing it not with the standard prescription. But
in the study, the rosemary oil at a certain strength
came out pretty similar to the two percent monoxidil. So
(12:34):
makes you go, right, this has some evidence it can help,
but it's not as good as the topical monoxidal at
five percent, which is your standard prescription. So sometimes you know,
maybe the rosemary oil is appropriate, but you know, not
boiling it up in your own sink. It needs to
be a certain percentage. You know, you laugh because you
(12:56):
maybe don't deal with these hair loss is all the time,
but you'd be surprised often people are trying to make
it themselves or all sorts. It needs to be standardized
so you know what percentage you are getting.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Oh, absolutely, And I guess it's similar to the issues
that are going on around like the skincare and how
there are all the skincare jupes now and they're you know,
calling out in the marketing the active ingredients, but the
percentage of that ingredient is like one twenty ath of
what you actually need in conjunction of getting it from
a dermatologist. So it's like the tiniest little fraction, but
(13:30):
that's what they use in their marketing.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, yep, yeah, I think similar.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Bit bit different is the issue with shampoos and conditioners
being used for you know, supposedly to treat hair loss. Again,
this would never work, and because it's because anything to
treat hair loss that's topical needs to stay on to work,
that needs to remain on for twenty four hours and
it's reapplied. So you can then imagine how a shampoo
(13:57):
just doesn't have the contact time to make any difference,
Like what's the maximum amount of time it might be
on maybe like three minutes maybe, and so that's never
going to work when it comes to hair loss either,
even though it's marketed as if it would.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
That is actually a perfect segue because I wanted to
ask you about shampoo. Do we really need the expensive,
fancy shampoos that our hairdressers like really try and sell
to us every time we go in or can supermarket
shampoos suffice?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You don't need the expensive shampoo or conditioner. Keep in
mind keeping this at a higher level without necessarily mentioning
any particular brands. But one of the biggest companies that
you'll see in the supermarket is this owns one of
the most expensive types of shampoo and conditioner. They own
(14:48):
that company, so they know how to construct a really
good shampoo and conditioner that it may even be an
identical product that's sitting on the supermarket shelf versus.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
In the hairdresser. So no, you don't. Expensive doesn't equal better.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
The only caveat here is that it does matter what
the pH is when it comes to our shampoos and conditioners,
the ideal pH being around five point five because that
helps to keep the microbiome on the scalp, you know,
at the right level. But also it helps to close
the cuticle, which is the outer layer of the hair,
(15:30):
which then think of it like closing some fish scales
down nice and tight. It then makes it smooth and shiny.
So PHR five point five is good for the scalp
and good for the hair. But the big brands they
know this and they do this. So, yeah, you don't
need to spend millions.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Because I had a hairdressaerant maybe two years ago to
kind of talk about scalp health, hair health dry shampoo,
and she said, you need the expensive shampoo to take
good care of your scalp so that your hair continues
to grow through the scalp.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
No, sorry, that is but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I know a lot of gullies who are listening to
this podcast are big gym goers. And there's always that
point of contention when it comes to washing your hair
and how many days a week is the ideal amount
and how often is too often to be using dry shampoo?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Okay, yes, so for someone who has no problems with
their scalp would be all right. The maxim mud let
them go is every three days washing their hair. The
ideal would be daily, really, especially when your shampoo conditioner
of the correct pH which they probably are, because you're
going to then help to prevent some of the problems
(16:43):
that I end up seeing in my clinic, like dandriff, lakiness, itchiness,
And it's because these problems relate to a particular yeast
on our scalp that's oil dependent. We're always producing oil
onto our scalp, and so we don't want to let
that oil build up for too many days in a row.
That's exacerbated when you're into fitness and you like to exercise,
(17:04):
get hot and sweaty if it's been an exercise day.
I'm sorry that you really should wash your hair.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Oh my god, because I swear as women, we have
been told for years not to wash your hair every
day because it strips away the natural natural oils and
that you can train your hair to not create as
much grease or sweat.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah, such a myth. Could never train your your hair.
I mean, you know, hair, it doesn't have a brain.
It's not trainable. The only thing that really dictates your
oil production is your hormones. So you washing your hair
daily versus you washing your hair you know, once every
(17:47):
seven days, You're still going to produce the same amount
of oil each day, pretending that our hormones remain equal
through this time, which obviously as women they actually do
fluctuate a bit. But let's just for the example's sake,
so that your hormones remains stable in that time, the
amount of oil produced each of those days would be
the same. So you letting it go for seven days
just means you'd let seven days of oil build up
(18:09):
onto your scalp, possibly leading to some other problems. Or
you're washing every day, or right, you have that single
day of oil that built up on the scalp, you
removed it. When you've got a correctly balanced shampoo. You're
not excessively stripping oils or anything like that. So I think,
never be afraid of that. But I can appreciate that,
(18:29):
especially those of you long hair, that yeah, it can
be then an effort.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
What then follows, I know, and what about dry shampoo?
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Dry shampoo is absolutely fine. I think it gets a
bad rap. It could be a really good thing for
people who find the excessively oily on the scalp. That
just lets them get through to the wash if it is,
you know, hopefully in the next day or two. Basically,
dry shampoos just have an ingredient in there that soaks
(19:00):
up oil.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That's what it does.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
But what I don't like is when people try to
use a dry shamp who as a real shampoo instead
of washing their Hair's me, they are not the same
thing at all. You're just soaking up the oil to
get a nicer appearance. So another thing is just to
be aware some people get a little bit irritated by
dry shampoo, you know, if that's you though, And just
(19:23):
to make sure you do wash it out really well.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's not the most amazing thing of
going for a couple of days. It starts to build up,
your hair starts to feel a bit chalky and a
bit gunky, but it just you really just jog my
memory with that myth conversation earlier, I distinctly remember. I
think it might have been Cosmopolitan or Cleo back in
the day, and I remember when there was a bit
of a trend going for people to start they were
(19:45):
like experimenting with training their hair to produce less oil.
And I remember one of the writers in it went
thirty days without washing her hair and allegedly she was
saying that the oil like dissipated after day fifteen or
sixteen or something.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, I see these kind of patients in my clinic
and I smell them as well, a sense, in the
most respectful way, there is no hiding that. And like
I said, it's your hormones that dictate the oil production.
It doesn't make any difference on that production. If you
were washing their hair frequently or not, it's still going
(20:20):
to produce oil.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I mean, I've smelt dreadlocks before and it's not pleasant,
So I can imagine that it would be a similar
kind of step.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, if someone wants.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
To improve the health of their hair without wasting money
on useless products, what would be the best approach?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I think that really, hair is an amazing barometer of
our health, and so it's about making sure that you're
eating a really healthy, balanced diet, not getting nutritionally deficient.
Being you know, exercising is actually really important. I do
talk to my patients about that. It's because it helps
(20:56):
us to manage our blood sugar and which can actually
exacerbate poor blood sugar control can exacerbate some types of
hair loss.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
The your diet yes.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Ensuring you get some protein sources in there, so adequate protein,
lots of colorful fruits and vegetables, and limiting sugar intake
like I spoke about, and then washing your hair with shampoo,
and if you've got long hair conditioner, I would a
little tip for those who bit more tendency towards oilyly
(21:26):
scalps is to make sure you're not applying your conditioner
onto the scalp directly, but more on the midlenks and ends.
And to think if shampoo really is for your scalp,
conditioner is for the hair itself, because it helps to
really close the cuticle, keeping it smooth. And then my
other tips would be for just good healthy hair, make
(21:47):
sure you always use a heat protectant when you're heat styling,
and then turn the heat down or make sure you've
got really well controlled heat devices so that you're minimizing
the damage there, because a lot of us, you know,
if you like me, you color your hair, you're already
damaging the hair shat, so then you can sometimes compound
(22:07):
that effect and that's when you start going down the
path of hair breakage. When you're using excessively hot tools,
you're not using heat protectants. So if you want to
preserve your locks and make sure you're doing those two
things as well.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Is there an ideal temperature for heat? Because I am
people who have been listening to this podcast for a
while will know the brand I'm talking about. I used
to work for a very large international haircare beauty brand
and they used to bang on about I think it
was one hundred and eighty or one hundred and one
hundred and eighty five degrees is like the scientifically backed
optimum temperature that's not going to damage your hair.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I think it's something like that, and that you know,
lower obviously is even better. And it depends if you're
talking about the hair or the scalp as well, because
sometimes even those temperatures could feel a bit burning on
the scalp. But yeah, I think just you know, on
your blow dry, for example, don't go the hottest one,
go the one down from there and you should be right.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And then this might be a bit of a captain
obvious question, but that kind of simil to a vitamin
efficiency in your body, like what are the real signs
that someone actually needs a hair supplement or is it
one of those questions where it's like you'll know because
your hair will either be falling out, it'll either be
not growing, you'll have little patches.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
You probably will know.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Sometimes the less obvious signs that I'm looking for when
I'm assessing a patient is that they will have lots
of hairs of different lengths, and they often will describe that, oh,
I can never get my hair to grow beyond this
certain point, and so that's when I'm starting to look
and think, I suspect that there might be something in
(23:42):
the blood test here. They sometimes might think that their
hair is breaking, but I'll look and if you would
have looked closely, you'd see that the hairs all have
pointy or tapered ends, which tells you their new hairs.
It's not that it's breaking, but you just have a
lot of different lengths through there, which is called chronic
diffuse hair loss. So it's all over and just keeps
going on until you resolve the particular nutritional deficiency. Something
(24:05):
that's quite important though, and if you are worried that
you have a problem, do seek the help of a
tricologist because some of the reference ranges, for example, the
iron or ferretin which the iron stores that would be
considered very good and healthy for general health and not
actually adequate if we look at the studies specific to
hair loss. So if you do think you have a
(24:26):
hair loss problem, have those blood tests done, but do
seek the advice of a tricologist or someone who specializes
in this, because they will know the specific reference ranges
for hair. Because there have been many a patients I've
seen who come in and said, my doctor told me
everything is good in my blood test, and I say,
can I just look at it just to be certain
from a hair perspective, and there'll be something that is clearly,
(24:49):
you know, normal and healthy, and that's probably why they
feel all right in themselves, but nowhere near enough for hair,
and so they keep having this excessive hair loss or
excessive shedding, which links me back to another sign. If
you're experiencing excessive shedding is seeing more than normal in
the shower your hair brushes. Another sign that maybe a
nutrient has gone a bit low.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And is the pH level of shampoos and conditions. Is
that like information you can find on the bottle.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Of course not some great brands do put it on
the packaging. I think that probably it's a pretty safe
bet that the big company is they know this and
they will have it right and it still have to
be spot on five point five. There's a little bit
of variation. I'd probably say point five variation each direction
(25:35):
is okay, but yeah, sometimes often to me anyway, if
I was to use a product that's the wrong pH,
I can tell because it has a funny feel in
the hands. Yeah, something about it just doesn't feel right
when you use it too, and you'll find that it doesn't.
The hair tends to get more tangled because the pH
isn't helping to close the cuticles, so the cuticles stay
(25:56):
open and it feels a bit more tangly. But sometimes
as a matter if you have to contact the manufacturer
and ask.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I wonder if there'll be a spike in that after
this episode comes down and what's happening.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, please just put it on your packaging.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah literally, So I feel like I could honestly chat
you about this all day, but just to wrap it
in a nice little bow. What is one piece of
lasting advice you would give to everybody listening to this
episode about air health.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I think that there's no need to treat something if
there is no problem that you have a genetically predetermined
energen or growing things. But look after yourself because your
hair will show that. So make sure you're eating, you know,
a well balanced diet, make sure you're doing all of
(26:41):
those healthy lifestyle things because ultimately your hair will show that.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And I'm just going to roll off the back of
that and say, stop getting influenced by things that you
see on Instagram and TikTok, because, as Chelsea has just
told you, they are an absolute waste of money. Thank
you so much, Chelsea. I've absolutely loved chatting to you today.
I will pop all of your links in it the
show notes that people can find more about it.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
You beautiful, Thanks Bobing, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
So much for listening. Guys, I really hope you enjoyed
the episode, and don't forget to help a sister out
by following the podcast on Apple or on Spotify or
wherever you listen to your podcasts. Rate it, write me
a review, and if you want more Finish, we do
have a private Facebook group. There is going to be
exclusive Q and A is happening with my guests in
that group. That's going to be events going live first,
(27:31):
so much fun stuff happening. Just look up fit ish
in brackets on Facebook and you can be part of
the Finish online community
Apodjay Production. Welcome to fit Ish. I'm Phoebe Parsons and
this is the podcast that proves that you don't have
to choose between staying fit and having fun. Welcome to
the podcast. Chelsea's Salinger are Tricologists. You are the first
trichologists I've ever had on and I've been dying to
(00:27):
talk to someone about this for years and I'm so
glad I have finally found you.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Oh, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So I want to talk to you today about hair
supplements and just what is scams versus science, because I
feel like anyone who has social media will be well
aware the amount of shit that gets pushed by influencers
on oral hair supplements, oral like you know, hair sprays everything.
There is just so much in the market promising hair growth,
(00:57):
thicker hair, all of this stuff. But I just want
to know what is worth the hype and what is
worth a scam.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
So right, I can't even tell you how many patients
that I have to discuss this with that come into
my clinic because they're taking some random hair, skin, and
nails supplement and as we'll discuss, you know, it doesn't
work for them and we have to go explain why,
And there's a couple of reasons.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, so there's three I want to kind of cover.
I've broken them into little category. So the first one
is kind of the oral supplements and the hair vitamins.
The second one is the hair oils with those round
scalp massaging brushes that I've seen everywhere lately. And then
secondly is like the collagen kind of supplements, the hair
skin nails kind of supplements. So, just before we kick off,
(01:45):
what do you think are currently the biggest scams or
the most overhyped trends in the hair industry right now?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Oh, right now, it would have to be the collagen supplements,
which you've already mentioned. I have so many patients come
in to see me who tell me that they're taking it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm just going to jump ahead and talk.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
About why why they they don't work. And the reason
is that, basically, collagen is a type of protein. So
people kind of assume like, oh, well, hare is protein
mainly protein as well, so you know, can't I just
have the collagen and send it over here? And it
doesn't work like that. Whenever we consume any kind of protein,
(02:24):
it gets broken down into its individual amino acids, and
amino acids the building box of protein, and then those
amino acids get sent wherever they are needed in the body.
So maybe it's for hormone creation, or maybe it's in
muscle repair or tissue repair, but we don't get to
dictate where those amino acids are sent. And so basically,
(02:46):
these people could have eaten any kind of protein and
it would have had the same effect. The only time
when something like the collagen supplement, you know, someone might
report that it worked for them, would have been the
case where someone was protein deficient before taking that. But again,
they could have taken any kind of protein and the
same thing would have occurred.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I have literally never thought about it like that, But
when you break it down so simply, it makes complete sense.
It's like the scams for period pain specific neurofin and
in my head I see it and I'm like, okay, okay,
this neuropin is trained to go straight to my uterus.
That's not how it works, Like if only there was
a bill that did that.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
When it comes to the other you know hair supplements
that you mentioned, basically they tend to be more like
a multi vitamin, multi mineral and they're just hoping to
hit upon something that you are deficient in. But again,
I take issue with this for a number of reasons.
Number One, they only work if you were deficient in
that thing that happens to contain, so a lot of
(03:50):
times people are taking something they weren't deficient in it,
so it makes no difference. Second is that they're generally
not a great enough dose to actually increase a deficiency.
So let's say that it does contain some iron and
someone was deficient iron and that's what was leading to
their hair loss. Well, often these hair supplements don't actually
(04:10):
contain enough iron to sort out a deficiency, so again
you still don't get there with solving the problem. But
the thing that actually drives me the craziest about these
supplements is that they sometimes put ingredients in their minerals
that actually block each other's absorption. So the big one
that I see a lot of is iron and zinc.
(04:31):
Both of them are key nutrients for the hair. So
I guess the people making these supplements go, oh, I know,
and consumers maybe know, oh, iron is really important for hair,
so let's put that in there.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Zinc.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Zinc is important for hair. Too, let's put that in there.
But these two minerals block each other's absorption and inhibit
each other, so it's a waste of time. It's so
irritating when I see that that you'd be surprised how
many supplements that the targeting hair have these two things
in it.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So it's literally just praying on our vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, it's so frustrating.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
I mean, my advice to anyone when it comes to
this side of things with a supplementation is if you
suspect that something is a bit low, then have a
blood test, see a tricologist, and let's pinpoint specifically what
is the problem, what's deficient, and then supplement that hard
so we move you away from that deficiency as quickly
(05:26):
as possible. Just for your listener, listeners reference some of
the key nutrients their hair that commonly can get a
bit low and then impact hair growth. So iron, yes, zinc,
Vitamin D is a really important one, and also B twelve.
They're probably my big four that can relate to hair loss.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So if someone is eating like a really healthy, well balanced,
well rounded diet and they're not deficient in anything, they
don't actually need to be doing any of this was
funny stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Essentially this would not do anything for them.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, I was going to say, majority of people take
these either to get longer hair faster, or to get
kind of that thicker kind of Victoria's secret hair, which
firstly is hair extensions. It's not actual hair, as is
most influencers hair. I'd actually love to see an influencer
who was pushing this stuff who didn't have extensions in
their hair for a start. But is it kind of
like the same concept as spot reduction. You know, when
(06:21):
you hear someone say this burns fat from your thighs,
that's not how fat burning works. Again, It's not like
one exercise is going to remove the fat just from
one particular area of your body in that same way.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
So true, And you just prompted my memory when you
were talking about the look of some of these influencers
that are pushing these supplements, etc. I've seen this gets
advertised to me a lot as a trichologist who I
see along my social media as well, and for someone
who's trained to look. I look at the people who
are selling these things, and often you know they've got
(06:57):
you know, the gorgeous people. Their hair is down to
their backside and they're selling something for hair growth or
hand length. Now you need to know that the average anergen,
which is the growing phase of the hair growth cycle
for most people, is about four years. The people that
are selling you things on social media, they are unusual
(07:17):
in that their growth cycle is probably like seven years
eight years. So it's not normal to be able to
grow your head to that length. Your anergen phase is
whatever it genetically was predetermined to be. There is nothing
you can do about that. You're never going to get
hair down to your bottom if you've never had hair
(07:39):
down to your bottom.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
But it does have to be said that what the.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Goal is then is to not have your anergen cut
short for other reasons. So if you did have a
nutritional deficiency, your energen phase gets cut short, or if
you're experiencing some of the other types of hair loss like
genetic thinning, the anergen phase the growing face also gets
cut short. And so that's when I see people who
are saying that come in and I say, oh, my hair,
(08:05):
it could never get past this certain length. Well, it's
more about delving into the problems, not throwing random things
at the situation, and that the people you're looking at
that are advertising to your social media are lucky genetically,
they're unusual. That's not the standard.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Oh my god. I know I keep throwing everything back
to likening to health and fitness, but I think that's
what's so relatable on this podcast. So it's kind of
like when you look at a supermodel like Giselle Buchen
and her body. Obviously you have to be very genetically
blessed to look like that to start with, not discounting
the fact that she would stay fit and healthy, but
it's not realistic to think that if you did her
exact training regime and ate exactly what she ate in
(08:47):
the day, you're not going to look like that, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Exactly. That's it.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Genetics has a lot, you know, at play here.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So is there a like scientifically backed ingredient or something
that is a bit of a green flag that is worked,
like sorry, backed by science if someone were looking for
a product that's not just a scam.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, there are a few different things that I guess
FDA approved when it comes to hair loss and things
that have evidence. Now there's a couple of medications, but
if we're talking about natural things, so some of those
people are looking for natural alternatives. Then I do have
a couple of favorite ingredients I guess that I think
(09:28):
do have evidence that I might suggest to someone. But again,
this is only if you're experiencing a problem. If you
don't have a problem, again, it's no point in throwing
these things at it. But if you're experiencing particularly you know,
some thinning in the center on top, then I would
be looking at maybe topical caffeine. There's some good studies
(09:49):
for that. And also the herbs saw palmetto, which blocks
some of the conversion of testosterone to the strong testosterone
in the skin, and that's what can make their heads
thin on top if you're experiencing that type of hair loss.
So those two ingredients are quite good, but I mean
they have evidence at a certain strength and percentage. And
I do note that sometimes you know, companies aren't aren't
(10:13):
telling us what the strength is of the caffeine in
their product.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
You just know. I thought it might be interesting for
you to know.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I thought, oh, I'm going to see if I can
have compounded a product that contains the correct evidence based
percentage of caffeine in it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And it made me think.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
That maybe other products possibly don't use the enough caffeine
because the caffeine tended to pull at the bottom of
the serum, and so you would need less caffeine than
the evidence based percentage for it to you know, look
nice or appealing as a product. And so yeah, in
that situation, they had to shake it to disperse it correctly.
(10:50):
But you have to wonder or hope, I hope that
these topical serums, et cetera are using the evidence based
percentages that you know, some people aren't getting what they're
paying for.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Oh absolutely, I think especially when people are putting things
not even just on their scalp, but on their eyelashes
and their eyebrows around their eyes. Like I again, it's
like the lash growth serum, the brow growth serum, and
caster oil. Everyone is going mad for cast oil, right.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Caster oil is on my dislike list, So there's zero
zero evidence for cast oil in hair growth. But what
is worse about it is it's cometogenic, which means pimple forming.
So the oil makes you more likely to get spots,
et cetera. On your scalp. Scalps just skin, just like
(11:41):
your face. And so I really dislike the use of
cast oil and just think it's a waste of time.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I guess the.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oil that does have a bit of evidence in more
so genetic thinning is the rosemary oil. There's a little
bit of evidence for that, but I think again you
have to know the circumstance around the evidence, so that
wouldn't be you know, my go to prescription for some
rosemary oil. And in the study is that they did
on rosemary oil for hair, they compared it to monoxideal topically.
(12:12):
Now that's one of the evidence based treatment options monoxidal,
but five percent monoxidal is the standard treatment for hair loss,
and they compared the rosemary with two percent monoxideal So
ready you're comparing it not with the standard prescription. But
in the study, the rosemary oil at a certain strength
came out pretty similar to the two percent monoxidil. So
(12:34):
makes you go, right, this has some evidence it can help,
but it's not as good as the topical monoxidal at
five percent, which is your standard prescription. So sometimes you know,
maybe the rosemary oil is appropriate, but you know, not
boiling it up in your own sink. It needs to
be a certain percentage. You know, you laugh because you
(12:56):
maybe don't deal with these hair loss is all the time,
but you'd be surprised often people are trying to make
it themselves or all sorts. It needs to be standardized
so you know what percentage you are getting.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Oh, absolutely, And I guess it's similar to the issues
that are going on around like the skincare and how
there are all the skincare jupes now and they're you know,
calling out in the marketing the active ingredients, but the
percentage of that ingredient is like one twenty ath of
what you actually need in conjunction of getting it from
a dermatologist. So it's like the tiniest little fraction, but
(13:30):
that's what they use in their marketing.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, yep, yeah, I think similar.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Bit bit different is the issue with shampoos and conditioners
being used for you know, supposedly to treat hair loss. Again,
this would never work, and because it's because anything to
treat hair loss that's topical needs to stay on to work,
that needs to remain on for twenty four hours and
it's reapplied. So you can then imagine how a shampoo
(13:57):
just doesn't have the contact time to make any difference,
Like what's the maximum amount of time it might be
on maybe like three minutes maybe, and so that's never
going to work when it comes to hair loss either,
even though it's marketed as if it would.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
That is actually a perfect segue because I wanted to
ask you about shampoo. Do we really need the expensive,
fancy shampoos that our hairdressers like really try and sell
to us every time we go in or can supermarket
shampoos suffice?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You don't need the expensive shampoo or conditioner. Keep in
mind keeping this at a higher level without necessarily mentioning
any particular brands. But one of the biggest companies that
you'll see in the supermarket is this owns one of
the most expensive types of shampoo and conditioner. They own
(14:48):
that company, so they know how to construct a really
good shampoo and conditioner that it may even be an
identical product that's sitting on the supermarket shelf versus.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
In the hairdresser. So no, you don't. Expensive doesn't equal better.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
The only caveat here is that it does matter what
the pH is when it comes to our shampoos and conditioners,
the ideal pH being around five point five because that
helps to keep the microbiome on the scalp, you know,
at the right level. But also it helps to close
the cuticle, which is the outer layer of the hair,
(15:30):
which then think of it like closing some fish scales
down nice and tight. It then makes it smooth and shiny.
So PHR five point five is good for the scalp
and good for the hair. But the big brands they
know this and they do this. So, yeah, you don't
need to spend millions.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Because I had a hairdressaerant maybe two years ago to
kind of talk about scalp health, hair health dry shampoo,
and she said, you need the expensive shampoo to take
good care of your scalp so that your hair continues
to grow through the scalp.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
No, sorry, that is but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I know a lot of gullies who are listening to
this podcast are big gym goers. And there's always that
point of contention when it comes to washing your hair
and how many days a week is the ideal amount
and how often is too often to be using dry shampoo?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Okay, yes, so for someone who has no problems with
their scalp would be all right. The maxim mud let
them go is every three days washing their hair. The
ideal would be daily, really, especially when your shampoo conditioner
of the correct pH which they probably are, because you're
going to then help to prevent some of the problems
(16:43):
that I end up seeing in my clinic, like dandriff, lakiness, itchiness,
And it's because these problems relate to a particular yeast
on our scalp that's oil dependent. We're always producing oil
onto our scalp, and so we don't want to let
that oil build up for too many days in a row.
That's exacerbated when you're into fitness and you like to exercise,
(17:04):
get hot and sweaty if it's been an exercise day.
I'm sorry that you really should wash your hair.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Oh my god, because I swear as women, we have
been told for years not to wash your hair every
day because it strips away the natural natural oils and
that you can train your hair to not create as
much grease or sweat.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah, such a myth. Could never train your your hair.
I mean, you know, hair, it doesn't have a brain.
It's not trainable. The only thing that really dictates your
oil production is your hormones. So you washing your hair
daily versus you washing your hair you know, once every
(17:47):
seven days, You're still going to produce the same amount
of oil each day, pretending that our hormones remain equal
through this time, which obviously as women they actually do
fluctuate a bit. But let's just for the example's sake,
so that your hormones remains stable in that time, the
amount of oil produced each of those days would be
the same. So you letting it go for seven days
just means you'd let seven days of oil build up
(18:09):
onto your scalp, possibly leading to some other problems. Or
you're washing every day, or right, you have that single
day of oil that built up on the scalp, you
removed it. When you've got a correctly balanced shampoo. You're
not excessively stripping oils or anything like that. So I think,
never be afraid of that. But I can appreciate that,
(18:29):
especially those of you long hair, that yeah, it can
be then an effort.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
What then follows, I know, and what about dry shampoo?
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Dry shampoo is absolutely fine. I think it gets a
bad rap. It could be a really good thing for
people who find the excessively oily on the scalp. That
just lets them get through to the wash if it is,
you know, hopefully in the next day or two. Basically,
dry shampoos just have an ingredient in there that soaks
(19:00):
up oil.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That's what it does.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
But what I don't like is when people try to
use a dry shamp who as a real shampoo instead
of washing their Hair's me, they are not the same
thing at all. You're just soaking up the oil to
get a nicer appearance. So another thing is just to
be aware some people get a little bit irritated by
dry shampoo, you know, if that's you though, And just
(19:23):
to make sure you do wash it out really well.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's not the most amazing thing of
going for a couple of days. It starts to build up,
your hair starts to feel a bit chalky and a
bit gunky, but it just you really just jog my
memory with that myth conversation earlier, I distinctly remember. I
think it might have been Cosmopolitan or Cleo back in
the day, and I remember when there was a bit
of a trend going for people to start they were
(19:45):
like experimenting with training their hair to produce less oil.
And I remember one of the writers in it went
thirty days without washing her hair and allegedly she was
saying that the oil like dissipated after day fifteen or
sixteen or something.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, I see these kind of patients in my clinic
and I smell them as well, a sense, in the
most respectful way, there is no hiding that. And like
I said, it's your hormones that dictate the oil production.
It doesn't make any difference on that production. If you
were washing their hair frequently or not, it's still going
(20:20):
to produce oil.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I mean, I've smelt dreadlocks before and it's not pleasant,
So I can imagine that it would be a similar
kind of step.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, if someone wants.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
To improve the health of their hair without wasting money
on useless products, what would be the best approach?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I think that really, hair is an amazing barometer of
our health, and so it's about making sure that you're
eating a really healthy, balanced diet, not getting nutritionally deficient.
Being you know, exercising is actually really important. I do
talk to my patients about that. It's because it helps
(20:56):
us to manage our blood sugar and which can actually
exacerbate poor blood sugar control can exacerbate some types of
hair loss.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
The your diet yes.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Ensuring you get some protein sources in there, so adequate protein,
lots of colorful fruits and vegetables, and limiting sugar intake
like I spoke about, and then washing your hair with shampoo,
and if you've got long hair conditioner, I would a
little tip for those who bit more tendency towards oilyly
(21:26):
scalps is to make sure you're not applying your conditioner
onto the scalp directly, but more on the midlenks and ends.
And to think if shampoo really is for your scalp,
conditioner is for the hair itself, because it helps to
really close the cuticle, keeping it smooth. And then my
other tips would be for just good healthy hair, make
(21:47):
sure you always use a heat protectant when you're heat styling,
and then turn the heat down or make sure you've
got really well controlled heat devices so that you're minimizing
the damage there, because a lot of us, you know,
if you like me, you color your hair, you're already
damaging the hair shat, so then you can sometimes compound
(22:07):
that effect and that's when you start going down the
path of hair breakage. When you're using excessively hot tools,
you're not using heat protectants. So if you want to
preserve your locks and make sure you're doing those two
things as well.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Is there an ideal temperature for heat? Because I am
people who have been listening to this podcast for a
while will know the brand I'm talking about. I used
to work for a very large international haircare beauty brand
and they used to bang on about I think it
was one hundred and eighty or one hundred and one
hundred and eighty five degrees is like the scientifically backed
optimum temperature that's not going to damage your hair.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I think it's something like that, and that you know,
lower obviously is even better. And it depends if you're
talking about the hair or the scalp as well, because
sometimes even those temperatures could feel a bit burning on
the scalp. But yeah, I think just you know, on
your blow dry, for example, don't go the hottest one,
go the one down from there and you should be right.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And then this might be a bit of a captain
obvious question, but that kind of simil to a vitamin
efficiency in your body, like what are the real signs
that someone actually needs a hair supplement or is it
one of those questions where it's like you'll know because
your hair will either be falling out, it'll either be
not growing, you'll have little patches.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
You probably will know.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Sometimes the less obvious signs that I'm looking for when
I'm assessing a patient is that they will have lots
of hairs of different lengths, and they often will describe that, oh,
I can never get my hair to grow beyond this
certain point, and so that's when I'm starting to look
and think, I suspect that there might be something in
(23:42):
the blood test here. They sometimes might think that their
hair is breaking, but I'll look and if you would
have looked closely, you'd see that the hairs all have
pointy or tapered ends, which tells you their new hairs.
It's not that it's breaking, but you just have a
lot of different lengths through there, which is called chronic
diffuse hair loss. So it's all over and just keeps
going on until you resolve the particular nutritional deficiency. Something
(24:05):
that's quite important though, and if you are worried that
you have a problem, do seek the help of a
tricologist because some of the reference ranges, for example, the
iron or ferretin which the iron stores that would be
considered very good and healthy for general health and not
actually adequate if we look at the studies specific to
hair loss. So if you do think you have a
(24:26):
hair loss problem, have those blood tests done, but do
seek the advice of a tricologist or someone who specializes
in this, because they will know the specific reference ranges
for hair. Because there have been many a patients I've
seen who come in and said, my doctor told me
everything is good in my blood test, and I say,
can I just look at it just to be certain
from a hair perspective, and there'll be something that is clearly,
(24:49):
you know, normal and healthy, and that's probably why they
feel all right in themselves, but nowhere near enough for hair,
and so they keep having this excessive hair loss or
excessive shedding, which links me back to another sign. If
you're experiencing excessive shedding is seeing more than normal in
the shower your hair brushes. Another sign that maybe a
nutrient has gone a bit low.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And is the pH level of shampoos and conditions. Is
that like information you can find on the bottle.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Of course not some great brands do put it on
the packaging. I think that probably it's a pretty safe
bet that the big company is they know this and
they will have it right and it still have to
be spot on five point five. There's a little bit
of variation. I'd probably say point five variation each direction
(25:35):
is okay, but yeah, sometimes often to me anyway, if
I was to use a product that's the wrong pH,
I can tell because it has a funny feel in
the hands. Yeah, something about it just doesn't feel right
when you use it too, and you'll find that it doesn't.
The hair tends to get more tangled because the pH
isn't helping to close the cuticles, so the cuticles stay
(25:56):
open and it feels a bit more tangly. But sometimes
as a matter if you have to contact the manufacturer
and ask.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I wonder if there'll be a spike in that after
this episode comes down and what's happening.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, please just put it on your packaging.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah literally, So I feel like I could honestly chat
you about this all day, but just to wrap it
in a nice little bow. What is one piece of
lasting advice you would give to everybody listening to this
episode about air health.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I think that there's no need to treat something if
there is no problem that you have a genetically predetermined
energen or growing things. But look after yourself because your
hair will show that. So make sure you're eating, you know,
a well balanced diet, make sure you're doing all of
(26:41):
those healthy lifestyle things because ultimately your hair will show that.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And I'm just going to roll off the back of
that and say, stop getting influenced by things that you
see on Instagram and TikTok, because, as Chelsea has just
told you, they are an absolute waste of money. Thank
you so much, Chelsea. I've absolutely loved chatting to you today.
I will pop all of your links in it the
show notes that people can find more about it.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
You beautiful, Thanks Bobing, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
So much for listening. Guys, I really hope you enjoyed
the episode, and don't forget to help a sister out
by following the podcast on Apple or on Spotify or
wherever you listen to your podcasts. Rate it, write me
a review, and if you want more Finish, we do
have a private Facebook group. There is going to be
exclusive Q and A is happening with my guests in
that group. That's going to be events going live first,
(27:31):
so much fun stuff happening. Just look up fit ish
in brackets on Facebook and you can be part of
the Finish online community
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