May 10, 2024 • 29 mins
There's a lot going on in currency markets and global trade at the moment. The Japanese yen has been falling, even after authorities seemed to intervene to try to arrest the slide. Meanwhile, weakness in the Chinese yuan has helped boost that country's exports and is fueling talk of a new "China Shock" for the rest of the world, even as its economy continues to grapple with slower economic growth and excess capacity. In this episode of Lots More, we bring back Brad Setser, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, to walk us through these developments, along with his new paper, "Power and Financial Interdependence." We also talk about what China's excavator exports can tell us about its economy.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Bred what's going on with the yen?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Well, it's, uh, there's a bit, a bit of an intervention.
The intervention took it from roughly one sixty to one
fifty two, and now it is drifting back up towards yes,
like round one fifty five. Broadly, the yen is just
really really, really really weak. Obviously, that's because Japanese interest
rates are very low relative to US and European rates,
(00:35):
and they the end reached a level where the Japanese
Ministry of Finance, which has Japan's reserves, started selling dollars
buying yen to try to try to limit how we
can become.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Joe, I gotta say I hate currencies. They are my
most hated a class locus everything No, because everything's relative.
So it's like, the yen is down. But is it
dollar strength or is it yen weakness? It sounds like
from what brad Is said, it's more yet weakness. But
I'm sure there's someone out there who will argue that
it's actually the dollar.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I did a deadlift one, okay, uh barges. This isn't
after school special, except.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I've decided I'm going to base my entire personality going
forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the US.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Where's the best with imposta?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
These are the important question. Is it robots taking over
the world? No.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I think that like in a couple of years, the
AI will do a really good job of making the
odd launch podcast. And people say, I don't really need
to listen to Joe and Tracy anymore.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
We do haveing perfect.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Welcome to lots more? Will we catch up with friends
about what's going on right now?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Because even when odd Lots is over, there's always lots more.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
And we really do have the perfect guest.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
We had our friend Hugh Hendry on the show just
this week and he was all telling this dollar story.
But like, is there something wrong with Japan? Should we
be scared? Or is this just a natural repricing due
to the interest rate differential?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I mean, I don't think there's anything structurally or fundamentally
wrong with Japan. I mean, Japan obviously has had difficulty
generating sustained inflation over time, and the Bank of Japan
is determined to kind of get inflation up this time,
and so the Bank of Japan has been, you know,
running a monetary policy that's a bit at odds with
(02:33):
the policy of the Fed and the ECB. I mean,
clearly this is a case of yen weakness, because you
can look at the yen versus the dollar or the
yen versus the Euro, and either way it is weak.
But it has reached a level of kind of extreme weakness.
In real terms, the yen is back to its levels
of the early nineteen seventies, and so, you know, like
(02:55):
if you think of Japan's economy in the early nineteen seventies,
that is, before Pan's electronics industry took over the you know,
took on the world, before Toyota's export wave and the
globalization of Japanese automakers. It's just it's returned Japan to
a level of purchasing power that does seem a bit
(03:16):
at odds with the underlying strength of its economy. But
that's I guess, you can. You know, the debate is
whether that's a natural consequence of interest rate differentials which
are large and now there's less of an expectation that
the Fed's going to cut, so the interest rate differential
will persist, or whether the yen has overshot a little bit.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
It's reached such.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
An extreme level of weakness that it is divorced even
from an interest rate differential that supports a weekend.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So we're speaking to Brad Setzer, senior fellow at the
Council on Foreign Relations and someone we like to talk
to to connect a lot of different things that are
going on in the world. And I'm just going to
ask one more question on the yen. And maybe it's
sort of rephrasing Joe's question about should we be worried?
But we have seen all the talk about yen intervention recently,
(04:09):
and since that supposed intervention, it looks like the yen
is weakening again. Is that something to worry about?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I guess it depends on what you mean by worry.
If you're the Ministry of Finance, you would rather that
the yen sort of just stay in a like a
range of one fifty to one fifty four. So if
you're the Ministry of Finance, I think you are worried
because the yen is drifting back towards one sixty, or
drifting back towards levels where you'd be expected to intervene
(04:39):
again the goal of intervention. Some people argue the goal
of intervention is to change the direction and go from
yen weakness to yen strength. I think that's an unrealistic goal,
and I don't think that is Japan's goal. I think
the goal of the Ministry of Finance is to limit,
to set a floor under how weak the yen is.
(05:00):
As the yen continues to depreciate, as it gets closer
to one sixty, I think there'll be increasing expectations of intervention.
And you know, in the short run, the intervention works,
and I think the longer one, I mean it works
in the sense that it will move the market back
towards one point fifty, and then it becomes a question
of whether the Ministry of Finance has to continuously intervene,
(05:23):
in which case eventually you will have a question about
whether it's running out of firepower, or whether the Bank
of Japan needs, if it's really worried, needs to join
the Ministry of Finance and adjust short term rates in
Japan as well.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Tracy, can I say something that has always bothered me?
And I don't mean Brad, don't listen to this part
because I'm going to question something that a professional economists
say all the time. But I'm always confused, and oh,
they didn't have enough inflation. They can't generate like we
have inflation now in the US. It doesn't seem that great. Meanwhile,
Japan doesn't have much inflation. I don't know, it doesn't
(06:01):
seem that bad to me, Like, maybe just don't worry
about making inflation higher, doesn't wait.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I do want to hear Brad respond to those.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Look, I actually think it's a real debate in Japan. Okay,
you know, Japan's economy did function for a while.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I've never been there, but every time I've looked pictures,
it seems like a peaceful, prosperous society with great consumer
and food and not inexpensive housing and working rail and
all these things that we supposedly want. Like, okay, so
it's not there's not much inflation.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Who cares.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I mean, it did generate some you know, it was
perceived to generate some significant problems. I mean, zero interest rates.
Zero inflation and zero interest rates doesn't leave much scope
for monetary policy to respond to downturns, and then it
makes wage adjustments more difficult. If some sector needs a
(06:53):
reduced real wage, you have to accept weaker nominal wages
and that yeah, that's just hard and people don't like
seeing there the dollar or yen value of their paycheck fall.
That said, I do think that there is a question
about whether whether low interest rates in a global environment
where other central banks have much higher interest rates, and
(07:14):
so your main transmission mechanism in theory is a week en,
about whether that's generating the right kind of inflation In Japan,
it's pushing up the price of imports. Imports in Japan
feed into consumer prices. They're also an input into some
Japanese industry. But in general terms, a weekend raises the
(07:35):
cost of imported energy and food and reduces real wages,
which we've seen. There was a headline yesterday about falling
real wages for close to two years in Japan. And
so it isn't clear that if the main effect of
a week in is reduced real wages and you have
less fewer yen to spend on Japanese services, you can't
(07:55):
go out as much because you're spending more on imported oil,
whether that will generate rate a healthy, self sustaining process
of appreciation. The winners of a week yen in Japan
are the multinationals the big exporters, some of the financial
investors who had long dollar position in their portfolio. But
there isn't any immediate transmission from a big company which
(08:18):
is making more gives me more yen on its operations
in Thailand in the United States to real wages in
Japan to increase spending in Japan. So it hasn't yet
generated the kind of inflationary dynamics that you've seen in
other economies. And so I do think there is a concern,
(08:39):
and that's why the Ministry of Finance is intervening and
trying to separately limit yen weakness. There's a concern that
yen weakness isn't actually helping reflate Japan's economy.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Brad, you mentioned wages there, real wages, and I was
just thinking back to my wage when I was in
grade school in Japan, and I used to get one
thousand yen every week for my allowance, which was ten dollars.
And I have to say that exchange rate is forever
fixed in my mind as like what the yen should be.
(09:12):
It should always be around like one hundred to the dollar.
And when I look at the chart now, it's really
kind of stunning. To me, But you also mentioned imports
getting more expensive, and this is something that we wanted
to speak to you about. Did you see the China
export data that came out this morning.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I did.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, So exports going up more than expected. I think
it was like a one point five percent increase in
dollar terms versus a forecast for one point three percent.
And this has kind of burst into the public consciousness
of at least finance Twitter recently, this idea that China's
exports have been relatively strong and this is one of
(09:52):
the few bright spots perhaps in the Chinese economy. Can
you talk a little bit more about that. Some people
are couching this as like a China a shock that
we should be worried about that the rest of the
world will struggle to respond to.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So I guess you know, if you just look at
the headline increase in dollars, an increase of one or
two percent doesn't seem that dramatic. So there's another important component,
which is that Chinese export prices have been falling quite significantly,
you know, because of yuan weakness, because of lower price
war for electric vehicles, a price war for solar panels,
(10:28):
a price war for a lot of China's exports, so
export volumes are actually up more like ten percent. I mean,
I don't think the numbers yet available for April, but
that was certainly the case for the first quarter, and
so it is in that context that one can think
of a new China shock. I think that the notion
of a new China shock is very much tied to
(10:51):
the auto sector and both the electric vehicle sector and
traditional combustion engines, where China has gone from basically being
a source of import demand. China imported high end luxury
cars from Germany, not so many from Japan, but few
from Japan, a lot from Germany, and five years ago
(11:12):
it wasn't a big export or not of cars. Produced
some trucks for export, but not much. Past few years,
that's changed. China is now the world's biggest exporter of cars.
It's electric vehicle manufacturers are exceptionally competitive. They're taking market
share from the foreign joint ventures in China, and they're
really starting to try to export. And then some of
(11:34):
the old capacity that made traditional internal combustion engine cars
in China is being repurposed to serve global demand. So
this is just combining to really push up export volumes
in autos in an important way. There's also just enormous
capacity inside China to produce solar panels, to produce batteries,
(11:59):
and so you know, China can meet global demand for
these products as it expands out of its existing capacity,
which makes it very difficult for other countries who want
to build up their own solar industry or their own
battery industry to get those industries going. I think that's
the sense in which China's exports are a bit of
(12:24):
a shock to the global system and why there's been
a bit of pushback. There's some technical factors as well.
We all remember that during the pandemic, everybody bought a
lot of computers, bought a lot of household appliances. That
drove China's exports up to a really, really high level.
Two years ago, they kind of dip back down and
now they're coming back up. But there's a dynamic around
(12:46):
China's traditional exports, and then there's a separate dynamic around
cars and clean energy exports, and I think the China
shock is much more now around cars and clean energy.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
You know, I remember in the post twenty ten environment,
and there's a lot of talk about, you know, currency wars.
In this idea, everyone doing this beggar thy neighbor policy
of trying to have their currency weaker so that they
could sell more. Is that still a dynamic because the
end can fall, can keep falling. But it doesn't mean
they're going to have a national BYD. In fact, Toyota
(13:32):
isn't even really that into evs as far as I
can tell, or the Malaysian ring it is pretty weak.
But they don't have a BYD either, or a Shoumi
or a comac or whatever. It is, Like, how much
do currencies today play and trade competitiveness or in an
environment in which the big source of action seems to
be non commodity more cutting edge technological exports.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I'm super retro on this question, Okay, in my view,
still matter, they matter.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
There's our headline, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Oh, I'm really going out on a limb there. I look.
I think the response of Japanese exports to yen weakness
has been relatively modest. I think there's a lot of
different reasons for that. I think Toyota has wanted to
protect its transplants, its factories in the United States. It
hasn't wanted to engage in a price war. It has
(14:25):
preferred to basically take the yeek week in as a
source of greater profit rather than really engage in a
fight for volume. If you look at the weak Korean
wand which is also veriry.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Which always going to bring up because it sort of
shows that there is this commonality and it's not just
a yen story.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
But yes, anyway, you know, if you look at Hyundai's
sales in the US and they're exports to the US,
they've responded very clearly to the to the week one.
You know, there's been an enormous actually increase hasn't gotten
a lot of attention in Korean auto exports to the US.
And I also think the fact that in real terms,
because Chinese inflation has actually been very low relative to
(15:04):
inflation and the rest of the world, and the yuan
has come down against the dollar, you know, there's been
a roughly ten percent weakening of the yuan in real terms,
and I think that is one of the factors that
is contributing to this export boom. You see all these
comparisons of China's EV prices versus prices of evs elsewhere,
(15:26):
and of course part of that is just you know,
byd had got really good at making evs really fast.
But part of it is that the Chinese yuan is
below where it was fifteen years ago against the dollar,
and inflation differentials are now bringing cost in China down.
My rule of thumb is that if the Chinese yuan
is not going up, if it's not appreciating, China tends
(15:49):
to gain global market share. And I think that is
a general rule that's held over time, and I think
it's asserting itself now. The interesting thing about China is
that it is not giving up its old competitive advantages
as it is introducing these new advantages. It's just exporting more.
And I think that is in part a function of
the week you on. So there's been some weirdness. Certainly
(16:14):
a lot of relationships broke down during the pandemic. But
my baseline thesis is that you're going to see a
reassertion of the traditional, well established relationship between currency values
and export volumes pretty clearly over the next couple of years.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Wait, this is my chance to ask you about Chinese
excavators and what they maybe say about what's driving the
export boom and the debate between you know, interest rate
differentials and maybe currency contributions versus excess capacity, because that's
the other thing that people are talking a lot about,
(16:52):
this idea that, well, there's so much excess capacity in
the Chinese economy. If you can't sell into your domestic market,
then you're going to try to sell more outside of it.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Look, the reality is the two those factors tend to
go together. If you've got weakness in your domestic market,
you're going to have low interest rates and a weak
currency as a general rule, and that exchange rate signal
helps you take products that previously were produced for your
own market and sell them to the rest of the world.
(17:24):
They're not mutually exclusive explanations. A weak currency helps you
take excess capacity and sell it globally. There's two different
things that have happened with excavators, which are like the
big construction equipment with like a backo that helps you
dig out the foundation of a new building or help
build a road. They're like the base construction equipment you
(17:47):
know in the US would be like the thing Caterpillar makes.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
It's the thing that every guy I've ever met always
dreams of operating.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Because they're cool.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Exactly by the way, So on the point, sorry to intervine,
but on this point, Tracy, you know, I'm going to
Las Vegas next week to see Dead and Co. With
a few friends at the sphere, and we're looking at
a few of the things that we can do, like
we're gonna go see the big dam that's out there
and other stuff. One of the things that possibly will
be on our itinerary is this big amusement park where
(18:19):
adults and kids can dig up stuff with excavators.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
So you may get a business model.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
You may get a.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Picture of me in about a week from today sitting
in an excavator or in the bucket part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Anyway, So yes, confirmed, all right, gor.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
And in my youth, I think I had a Lego
set that where you had like the fancy gears and
you could like make it move and it was an
excavator and it was the total list. There's something amazing
about the mechanics of an excavator excavator. But you know,
two things have happened. Like twenty years ago, there were
a lot of excavators made in China. Even then, those
(18:54):
excavators were often made by Caterpillar or Komatsu. The big
Japanese construction equipment company. And so over the past twenty years,
Chinese companies have sprung up, developed, been able to produce
at a lower cost point, probably gotten a little local preference.
You know, if you're a state back construction company, you're
probably going to use a Chinese excavator if it is
(19:16):
price competitive. And so inside the Chinese market, the Chinese companies,
the Chinese marks have gained at the expensive foreign companies.
And then the second thing that happened is that as
China went through, you know, one of the world's biggest
property booms, there was just a lot of demand for excavators.
So capacity increased and China was producing a lot of excavators.
(19:40):
Chinese companies were producing a lot of excavators that were
mostly being used in China as part of the construction boom.
Construction boom turned to construction busts. Chinese companies are making
competitive excavators, and guess what those excavators are being exported globally.
Same dynamics a little bit in steel. It is not
(20:00):
just a clean tech ev dynamic. The set of inputs
old industry inputs into construction. You know, construction activity in
China's down. It's going to go down further, given all
the difficulties in the property development sector, and given the
(20:20):
fact that China's overbuilt and you're going to have to
have an extended period of much reduced property construction. Those
inputs are in some small part being exported. I mean,
China could export more steel, but Chinese steel exports now
exceed US steel production. I think they exceed Japanese steel production.
I mean, that's just a and that has not exhausted
(20:43):
Chinese export capacity. There's still capacity to export more. So
that's the kind of thing that makes a lot of
China's trading partners nervous. You know, China's can export one
hundred million tons of metric tons of steel and still
export another one hundred million. China's exporting five million vehicles,
but there is clearly capacity inside China export ten wow.
(21:06):
And you know five is more than Japan, it's more
than Germany. Ten would be record breaking. So it's that
forward looking concern is very real.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Tracy two things.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I'm on Alibaba dot Com right now, and there's apparently
excavators you can buy for two thousand dollars from China.
I don't understand how that has.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
To be any man.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, but they look like something. But then the other
thing is like, you know, Tracy, just I just had
this light bulb moment where, you know, when the Internet
bubble happened in the US, everyone is like, well, yeah,
but there were some good spillovers because we got all
this unused fiber optics and that laid the groundwork for
the next twenty years China real estate bubble, creating this
incredible unused capacity of excavator and I know how to
(21:51):
make excavators for the rest of the world.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Okay, Brad. The other thing we wanted to ask you about,
we could just turn this into an excavator.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
At the We got to get that guy on TikTok
who sells the Chinese excavators sometime.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
That would be fun.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Brad.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
The other thing we want to ask you, and this
kind of ties into the discussion around well, it very
much ties into the discussion around China's export boom. You
just published a paper at the French Institute of International
Relations called Power and Financial Interdependence, and you're sort of
tackling this idea of the China and US financial systems
(22:27):
being intertwined so China buys a lot of US treasuries
because it has to, basically because it's exporting a lot
to the US. But you make the point that there's
a difference between financial intertwining or interdependence versus the sort
of real economy interdependence. Could you talk a little bit
more about that.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Well, I mean, I think the paper has an ambitious title,
so hopefully people will read it as a paper with
some ambition, even if the conclusions are nuanced. I guess
I make a number of different observations about the link
between financial interdependence and real economic interdependence. One is the
(23:07):
one you made that if there is an enormous trade imbalance,
by definition, there has to be offsetting financing, and there
will be a financial imbalance, even if that imbalance is
a bit hidden, and even if it is hard to trace.
And one of the clear trends over the past fifteen
years is that China has gone from more or less
(23:28):
taking its export surplus, having the central bank buy it up,
buy up the dollars in investing in treasuries and agencies
doing a lot of more diverse things with its foreign
exchange reserves. There's a phrase that safe uses which I
like called the diversified use of foreign exchange reserves, which
actually it would be putting them things into financial assets
that are in no way foreign exchange reserves. And then
(23:52):
because of low interest rates, right now, the accumulation of
financial assets on the Chinese side has moved to the
export to the private side of China's economy, and so
it doesn't show up as this huge sustained bid for treasuries.
So that's kind of one theme. The other theme is, hey,
if you're thinking about the exercise of power, there are
(24:16):
conditions when you really need financial assets. If you have
an overvalue currency and you want to defend that currency,
you don't want the currency to weaken, or if you
have foreign currency denominated debts that you really want to pay,
you need financial assets, and losing access to financial assets
can be a very powerful sanction. But China buy and large,
(24:37):
doesn't need access to its legacy financial assets to do
much of anything right now. It's got this big ongoing
trade ser plus, it doesn't have much foreign currency external debt.
Obviously it does help with respect to intervention, but if
at the end of the day, the worst outcome that
for China from losing access to your foreign exchange reserves
(25:00):
is a weak Chinese yuan, that's probably something China can manage. Actually, Conversely,
those countries that are selling financial assets to China, they're
receiving real goods and surfaces, mostly goods, and if you
lose access to real goods in a crisis in certain contexts,
that can be quite devastating. You lose access to imported components,
(25:24):
and then the rest of your production process can't continue
until you find an alternative source. And for some products
there is no alternative source that's also not Chinese. So
I think you have to worry a little bit in this.
In a world where you know, so called interdependence has
been weaponized, and the US has weaponized interdependence chip export
(25:45):
controls or the classic example, financial sanctions or the other.
China has weaponized interdependence economic coercion, not buying commodities or
at least some commodities from countries where it don't say
nice things about China, famously with Australia are squeezing Korean
automakers after Korea agreed to the deployment of a powerful
(26:08):
US radar in Korea, or losing access to Chinese tourists,
because the Chinese State Tourism Bureau doesn't sell package holidays
to your country if you're not saying, if you're rude
and mean to the Chinese people. So you know, there
are various ways in which interdependence can be weaponized, and
some of those involve limits on the use of your
(26:31):
foreign assets, financial sanctions, and some of those involve restrictions
on the real flow of goods. And I think in
the most extreme scenarios, the restrictions on the real flow
of goods may be more significant for the Sino American
leverage than financial right.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
That's basically my takeaway here that if the US did
to China at some point in the future what it
did to Russia, which I'm not even.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Sure that that effective.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Against Russia, but against China it wouldn't have a big
impact necessarily, But if the China converted conversely did the opposite,
it would.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Have a big impact on US. So it seems like
a bad situation for the US well.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
But to be fair, one of the side effects of
the property boom in China, you know, Xi Jinping has
this idea that he can reduce his dependence on the
rest of the world by substituting out all the goods
that China now imports, all at least the manufactured goods
that China imports, and building up stockpiles of all the
(27:36):
commodities that China imports, And so if there was a
big interruption in trade, China's economy could continue to function
fair enough. One thesis. It's a pretty aggressive thesis. It's
aggressive in the sense that it's preparing for a negative contingency.
It's aggressive in the sense that it it engineers out
(27:57):
all of other countries' exports into manufactured exports into China.
But it doesn't change the fact that an enormous part
of the Chinese economy and a growing part of the
Chinese economy. All the people making excavators, for example, are
internal combustion engine cars for export. They their jobs depend
(28:17):
on access to export markets. So China's dependence on external
demand has gone up very, very significantly over the past
three or four years, even as China's reliance on imported
manufactured inputs has gone down. So China does have its
own very significant vulnerabilities in that respect.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
We're back to excavators as the prism through which to
understand China's Economy, lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez
and Dashel Bennett, with help from Moses Onam and kel Brooks.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Our sound engineer is Blake Maple's Sage Bouman is the
head of Bloomberg Pucks.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
Bred what's going on with the yen?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Well, it's, uh, there's a bit, a bit of an intervention.
The intervention took it from roughly one sixty to one
fifty two, and now it is drifting back up towards yes,
like round one fifty five. Broadly, the yen is just
really really, really really weak. Obviously, that's because Japanese interest
rates are very low relative to US and European rates,
(00:35):
and they the end reached a level where the Japanese
Ministry of Finance, which has Japan's reserves, started selling dollars
buying yen to try to try to limit how we
can become.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Joe, I gotta say I hate currencies. They are my
most hated a class locus everything No, because everything's relative.
So it's like, the yen is down. But is it
dollar strength or is it yen weakness? It sounds like
from what brad Is said, it's more yet weakness. But
I'm sure there's someone out there who will argue that
it's actually the dollar.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I did a deadlift one, okay, uh barges. This isn't
after school special, except.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I've decided I'm going to base my entire personality going
forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the US.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Where's the best with imposta?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
These are the important question. Is it robots taking over
the world? No.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I think that like in a couple of years, the
AI will do a really good job of making the
odd launch podcast. And people say, I don't really need
to listen to Joe and Tracy anymore.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
We do haveing perfect.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Welcome to lots more? Will we catch up with friends
about what's going on right now?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Because even when odd Lots is over, there's always lots more.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
And we really do have the perfect guest.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
We had our friend Hugh Hendry on the show just
this week and he was all telling this dollar story.
But like, is there something wrong with Japan? Should we
be scared? Or is this just a natural repricing due
to the interest rate differential?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I mean, I don't think there's anything structurally or fundamentally
wrong with Japan. I mean, Japan obviously has had difficulty
generating sustained inflation over time, and the Bank of Japan
is determined to kind of get inflation up this time,
and so the Bank of Japan has been, you know,
running a monetary policy that's a bit at odds with
(02:33):
the policy of the Fed and the ECB. I mean,
clearly this is a case of yen weakness, because you
can look at the yen versus the dollar or the
yen versus the Euro, and either way it is weak.
But it has reached a level of kind of extreme weakness.
In real terms, the yen is back to its levels
of the early nineteen seventies, and so, you know, like
(02:55):
if you think of Japan's economy in the early nineteen seventies,
that is, before Pan's electronics industry took over the you know,
took on the world, before Toyota's export wave and the
globalization of Japanese automakers. It's just it's returned Japan to
a level of purchasing power that does seem a bit
(03:16):
at odds with the underlying strength of its economy. But
that's I guess, you can. You know, the debate is
whether that's a natural consequence of interest rate differentials which
are large and now there's less of an expectation that
the Fed's going to cut, so the interest rate differential
will persist, or whether the yen has overshot a little bit.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
It's reached such.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
An extreme level of weakness that it is divorced even
from an interest rate differential that supports a weekend.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So we're speaking to Brad Setzer, senior fellow at the
Council on Foreign Relations and someone we like to talk
to to connect a lot of different things that are
going on in the world. And I'm just going to
ask one more question on the yen. And maybe it's
sort of rephrasing Joe's question about should we be worried?
But we have seen all the talk about yen intervention recently,
(04:09):
and since that supposed intervention, it looks like the yen
is weakening again. Is that something to worry about?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I guess it depends on what you mean by worry.
If you're the Ministry of Finance, you would rather that
the yen sort of just stay in a like a
range of one fifty to one fifty four. So if
you're the Ministry of Finance, I think you are worried
because the yen is drifting back towards one sixty, or
drifting back towards levels where you'd be expected to intervene
(04:39):
again the goal of intervention. Some people argue the goal
of intervention is to change the direction and go from
yen weakness to yen strength. I think that's an unrealistic goal,
and I don't think that is Japan's goal. I think
the goal of the Ministry of Finance is to limit,
to set a floor under how weak the yen is.
(05:00):
As the yen continues to depreciate, as it gets closer
to one sixty, I think there'll be increasing expectations of intervention.
And you know, in the short run, the intervention works,
and I think the longer one, I mean it works
in the sense that it will move the market back
towards one point fifty, and then it becomes a question
of whether the Ministry of Finance has to continuously intervene,
(05:23):
in which case eventually you will have a question about
whether it's running out of firepower, or whether the Bank
of Japan needs, if it's really worried, needs to join
the Ministry of Finance and adjust short term rates in
Japan as well.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Tracy, can I say something that has always bothered me?
And I don't mean Brad, don't listen to this part
because I'm going to question something that a professional economists
say all the time. But I'm always confused, and oh,
they didn't have enough inflation. They can't generate like we
have inflation now in the US. It doesn't seem that great. Meanwhile,
Japan doesn't have much inflation. I don't know, it doesn't
(06:01):
seem that bad to me, Like, maybe just don't worry
about making inflation higher, doesn't wait.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I do want to hear Brad respond to those.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Look, I actually think it's a real debate in Japan. Okay,
you know, Japan's economy did function for a while.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I've never been there, but every time I've looked pictures,
it seems like a peaceful, prosperous society with great consumer
and food and not inexpensive housing and working rail and
all these things that we supposedly want. Like, okay, so
it's not there's not much inflation.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Who cares.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I mean, it did generate some you know, it was
perceived to generate some significant problems. I mean, zero interest rates.
Zero inflation and zero interest rates doesn't leave much scope
for monetary policy to respond to downturns, and then it
makes wage adjustments more difficult. If some sector needs a
(06:53):
reduced real wage, you have to accept weaker nominal wages
and that yeah, that's just hard and people don't like
seeing there the dollar or yen value of their paycheck fall.
That said, I do think that there is a question
about whether whether low interest rates in a global environment
where other central banks have much higher interest rates, and
(07:14):
so your main transmission mechanism in theory is a week en,
about whether that's generating the right kind of inflation In Japan,
it's pushing up the price of imports. Imports in Japan
feed into consumer prices. They're also an input into some
Japanese industry. But in general terms, a weekend raises the
(07:35):
cost of imported energy and food and reduces real wages,
which we've seen. There was a headline yesterday about falling
real wages for close to two years in Japan. And
so it isn't clear that if the main effect of
a week in is reduced real wages and you have
less fewer yen to spend on Japanese services, you can't
(07:55):
go out as much because you're spending more on imported oil,
whether that will generate rate a healthy, self sustaining process
of appreciation. The winners of a week yen in Japan
are the multinationals the big exporters, some of the financial
investors who had long dollar position in their portfolio. But
there isn't any immediate transmission from a big company which
(08:18):
is making more gives me more yen on its operations
in Thailand in the United States to real wages in
Japan to increase spending in Japan. So it hasn't yet
generated the kind of inflationary dynamics that you've seen in
other economies. And so I do think there is a concern,
(08:39):
and that's why the Ministry of Finance is intervening and
trying to separately limit yen weakness. There's a concern that
yen weakness isn't actually helping reflate Japan's economy.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Brad, you mentioned wages there, real wages, and I was
just thinking back to my wage when I was in
grade school in Japan, and I used to get one
thousand yen every week for my allowance, which was ten dollars.
And I have to say that exchange rate is forever
fixed in my mind as like what the yen should be.
(09:12):
It should always be around like one hundred to the dollar.
And when I look at the chart now, it's really
kind of stunning. To me, But you also mentioned imports
getting more expensive, and this is something that we wanted
to speak to you about. Did you see the China
export data that came out this morning.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I did.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, So exports going up more than expected. I think
it was like a one point five percent increase in
dollar terms versus a forecast for one point three percent.
And this has kind of burst into the public consciousness
of at least finance Twitter recently, this idea that China's
exports have been relatively strong and this is one of
(09:52):
the few bright spots perhaps in the Chinese economy. Can
you talk a little bit more about that. Some people
are couching this as like a China a shock that
we should be worried about that the rest of the
world will struggle to respond to.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So I guess you know, if you just look at
the headline increase in dollars, an increase of one or
two percent doesn't seem that dramatic. So there's another important component,
which is that Chinese export prices have been falling quite significantly,
you know, because of yuan weakness, because of lower price
war for electric vehicles, a price war for solar panels,
(10:28):
a price war for a lot of China's exports, so
export volumes are actually up more like ten percent. I mean,
I don't think the numbers yet available for April, but
that was certainly the case for the first quarter, and
so it is in that context that one can think
of a new China shock. I think that the notion
of a new China shock is very much tied to
(10:51):
the auto sector and both the electric vehicle sector and
traditional combustion engines, where China has gone from basically being
a source of import demand. China imported high end luxury
cars from Germany, not so many from Japan, but few
from Japan, a lot from Germany, and five years ago
(11:12):
it wasn't a big export or not of cars. Produced
some trucks for export, but not much. Past few years,
that's changed. China is now the world's biggest exporter of cars.
It's electric vehicle manufacturers are exceptionally competitive. They're taking market
share from the foreign joint ventures in China, and they're
really starting to try to export. And then some of
(11:34):
the old capacity that made traditional internal combustion engine cars
in China is being repurposed to serve global demand. So
this is just combining to really push up export volumes
in autos in an important way. There's also just enormous
capacity inside China to produce solar panels, to produce batteries,
(11:59):
and so you know, China can meet global demand for
these products as it expands out of its existing capacity,
which makes it very difficult for other countries who want
to build up their own solar industry or their own
battery industry to get those industries going. I think that's
the sense in which China's exports are a bit of
(12:24):
a shock to the global system and why there's been
a bit of pushback. There's some technical factors as well.
We all remember that during the pandemic, everybody bought a
lot of computers, bought a lot of household appliances. That
drove China's exports up to a really, really high level.
Two years ago, they kind of dip back down and
now they're coming back up. But there's a dynamic around
(12:46):
China's traditional exports, and then there's a separate dynamic around
cars and clean energy exports, and I think the China
shock is much more now around cars and clean energy.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
You know, I remember in the post twenty ten environment,
and there's a lot of talk about, you know, currency wars.
In this idea, everyone doing this beggar thy neighbor policy
of trying to have their currency weaker so that they
could sell more. Is that still a dynamic because the
end can fall, can keep falling. But it doesn't mean
they're going to have a national BYD. In fact, Toyota
(13:32):
isn't even really that into evs as far as I
can tell, or the Malaysian ring it is pretty weak.
But they don't have a BYD either, or a Shoumi
or a comac or whatever. It is, Like, how much
do currencies today play and trade competitiveness or in an
environment in which the big source of action seems to
be non commodity more cutting edge technological exports.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I'm super retro on this question, Okay, in my view,
still matter, they matter.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
There's our headline, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Oh, I'm really going out on a limb there. I look.
I think the response of Japanese exports to yen weakness
has been relatively modest. I think there's a lot of
different reasons for that. I think Toyota has wanted to
protect its transplants, its factories in the United States. It
hasn't wanted to engage in a price war. It has
(14:25):
preferred to basically take the yeek week in as a
source of greater profit rather than really engage in a
fight for volume. If you look at the weak Korean
wand which is also veriry.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Which always going to bring up because it sort of
shows that there is this commonality and it's not just
a yen story.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
But yes, anyway, you know, if you look at Hyundai's
sales in the US and they're exports to the US,
they've responded very clearly to the to the week one.
You know, there's been an enormous actually increase hasn't gotten
a lot of attention in Korean auto exports to the US.
And I also think the fact that in real terms,
because Chinese inflation has actually been very low relative to
(15:04):
inflation and the rest of the world, and the yuan
has come down against the dollar, you know, there's been
a roughly ten percent weakening of the yuan in real terms,
and I think that is one of the factors that
is contributing to this export boom. You see all these
comparisons of China's EV prices versus prices of evs elsewhere,
(15:26):
and of course part of that is just you know,
byd had got really good at making evs really fast.
But part of it is that the Chinese yuan is
below where it was fifteen years ago against the dollar,
and inflation differentials are now bringing cost in China down.
My rule of thumb is that if the Chinese yuan
is not going up, if it's not appreciating, China tends
(15:49):
to gain global market share. And I think that is
a general rule that's held over time, and I think
it's asserting itself now. The interesting thing about China is
that it is not giving up its old competitive advantages
as it is introducing these new advantages. It's just exporting more.
And I think that is in part a function of
the week you on. So there's been some weirdness. Certainly
(16:14):
a lot of relationships broke down during the pandemic. But
my baseline thesis is that you're going to see a
reassertion of the traditional, well established relationship between currency values
and export volumes pretty clearly over the next couple of years.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Wait, this is my chance to ask you about Chinese
excavators and what they maybe say about what's driving the
export boom and the debate between you know, interest rate
differentials and maybe currency contributions versus excess capacity, because that's
the other thing that people are talking a lot about,
(16:52):
this idea that, well, there's so much excess capacity in
the Chinese economy. If you can't sell into your domestic market,
then you're going to try to sell more outside of it.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Look, the reality is the two those factors tend to
go together. If you've got weakness in your domestic market,
you're going to have low interest rates and a weak
currency as a general rule, and that exchange rate signal
helps you take products that previously were produced for your
own market and sell them to the rest of the world.
(17:24):
They're not mutually exclusive explanations. A weak currency helps you
take excess capacity and sell it globally. There's two different
things that have happened with excavators, which are like the
big construction equipment with like a backo that helps you
dig out the foundation of a new building or help
build a road. They're like the base construction equipment you
(17:47):
know in the US would be like the thing Caterpillar makes.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
It's the thing that every guy I've ever met always
dreams of operating.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Because they're cool.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Exactly by the way, So on the point, sorry to intervine,
but on this point, Tracy, you know, I'm going to
Las Vegas next week to see Dead and Co. With
a few friends at the sphere, and we're looking at
a few of the things that we can do, like
we're gonna go see the big dam that's out there
and other stuff. One of the things that possibly will
be on our itinerary is this big amusement park where
(18:19):
adults and kids can dig up stuff with excavators.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
So you may get a business model.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
You may get a.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Picture of me in about a week from today sitting
in an excavator or in the bucket part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Anyway, So yes, confirmed, all right, gor.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
And in my youth, I think I had a Lego
set that where you had like the fancy gears and
you could like make it move and it was an
excavator and it was the total list. There's something amazing
about the mechanics of an excavator excavator. But you know,
two things have happened. Like twenty years ago, there were
a lot of excavators made in China. Even then, those
(18:54):
excavators were often made by Caterpillar or Komatsu. The big
Japanese construction equipment company. And so over the past twenty years,
Chinese companies have sprung up, developed, been able to produce
at a lower cost point, probably gotten a little local preference.
You know, if you're a state back construction company, you're
probably going to use a Chinese excavator if it is
(19:16):
price competitive. And so inside the Chinese market, the Chinese companies,
the Chinese marks have gained at the expensive foreign companies.
And then the second thing that happened is that as
China went through, you know, one of the world's biggest
property booms, there was just a lot of demand for excavators.
So capacity increased and China was producing a lot of excavators.
(19:40):
Chinese companies were producing a lot of excavators that were
mostly being used in China as part of the construction boom.
Construction boom turned to construction busts. Chinese companies are making
competitive excavators, and guess what those excavators are being exported globally.
Same dynamics a little bit in steel. It is not
(20:00):
just a clean tech ev dynamic. The set of inputs
old industry inputs into construction. You know, construction activity in
China's down. It's going to go down further, given all
the difficulties in the property development sector, and given the
(20:20):
fact that China's overbuilt and you're going to have to
have an extended period of much reduced property construction. Those
inputs are in some small part being exported. I mean,
China could export more steel, but Chinese steel exports now
exceed US steel production. I think they exceed Japanese steel production.
I mean, that's just a and that has not exhausted
(20:43):
Chinese export capacity. There's still capacity to export more. So
that's the kind of thing that makes a lot of
China's trading partners nervous. You know, China's can export one
hundred million tons of metric tons of steel and still
export another one hundred million. China's exporting five million vehicles,
but there is clearly capacity inside China export ten wow.
(21:06):
And you know five is more than Japan, it's more
than Germany. Ten would be record breaking. So it's that
forward looking concern is very real.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Tracy two things.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I'm on Alibaba dot Com right now, and there's apparently
excavators you can buy for two thousand dollars from China.
I don't understand how that has.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
To be any man.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, but they look like something. But then the other
thing is like, you know, Tracy, just I just had
this light bulb moment where, you know, when the Internet
bubble happened in the US, everyone is like, well, yeah,
but there were some good spillovers because we got all
this unused fiber optics and that laid the groundwork for
the next twenty years China real estate bubble, creating this
incredible unused capacity of excavator and I know how to
(21:51):
make excavators for the rest of the world.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Okay, Brad. The other thing we wanted to ask you about,
we could just turn this into an excavator.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
At the We got to get that guy on TikTok
who sells the Chinese excavators sometime.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
That would be fun.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Brad.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
The other thing we want to ask you, and this
kind of ties into the discussion around well, it very
much ties into the discussion around China's export boom. You
just published a paper at the French Institute of International
Relations called Power and Financial Interdependence, and you're sort of
tackling this idea of the China and US financial systems
(22:27):
being intertwined so China buys a lot of US treasuries
because it has to, basically because it's exporting a lot
to the US. But you make the point that there's
a difference between financial intertwining or interdependence versus the sort
of real economy interdependence. Could you talk a little bit
more about that.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Well, I mean, I think the paper has an ambitious title,
so hopefully people will read it as a paper with
some ambition, even if the conclusions are nuanced. I guess
I make a number of different observations about the link
between financial interdependence and real economic interdependence. One is the
(23:07):
one you made that if there is an enormous trade imbalance,
by definition, there has to be offsetting financing, and there
will be a financial imbalance, even if that imbalance is
a bit hidden, and even if it is hard to trace.
And one of the clear trends over the past fifteen
years is that China has gone from more or less
(23:28):
taking its export surplus, having the central bank buy it up,
buy up the dollars in investing in treasuries and agencies
doing a lot of more diverse things with its foreign
exchange reserves. There's a phrase that safe uses which I
like called the diversified use of foreign exchange reserves, which
actually it would be putting them things into financial assets
that are in no way foreign exchange reserves. And then
(23:52):
because of low interest rates, right now, the accumulation of
financial assets on the Chinese side has moved to the
export to the private side of China's economy, and so
it doesn't show up as this huge sustained bid for treasuries.
So that's kind of one theme. The other theme is, hey,
if you're thinking about the exercise of power, there are
(24:16):
conditions when you really need financial assets. If you have
an overvalue currency and you want to defend that currency,
you don't want the currency to weaken, or if you
have foreign currency denominated debts that you really want to pay,
you need financial assets, and losing access to financial assets
can be a very powerful sanction. But China buy and large,
(24:37):
doesn't need access to its legacy financial assets to do
much of anything right now. It's got this big ongoing
trade ser plus, it doesn't have much foreign currency external debt.
Obviously it does help with respect to intervention, but if
at the end of the day, the worst outcome that
for China from losing access to your foreign exchange reserves
(25:00):
is a weak Chinese yuan, that's probably something China can manage. Actually, Conversely,
those countries that are selling financial assets to China, they're
receiving real goods and surfaces, mostly goods, and if you
lose access to real goods in a crisis in certain contexts,
that can be quite devastating. You lose access to imported components,
(25:24):
and then the rest of your production process can't continue
until you find an alternative source. And for some products
there is no alternative source that's also not Chinese. So
I think you have to worry a little bit in this.
In a world where you know, so called interdependence has
been weaponized, and the US has weaponized interdependence chip export
(25:45):
controls or the classic example, financial sanctions or the other.
China has weaponized interdependence economic coercion, not buying commodities or
at least some commodities from countries where it don't say
nice things about China, famously with Australia are squeezing Korean
automakers after Korea agreed to the deployment of a powerful
(26:08):
US radar in Korea, or losing access to Chinese tourists,
because the Chinese State Tourism Bureau doesn't sell package holidays
to your country if you're not saying, if you're rude
and mean to the Chinese people. So you know, there
are various ways in which interdependence can be weaponized, and
some of those involve limits on the use of your
(26:31):
foreign assets, financial sanctions, and some of those involve restrictions
on the real flow of goods. And I think in
the most extreme scenarios, the restrictions on the real flow
of goods may be more significant for the Sino American
leverage than financial right.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
That's basically my takeaway here that if the US did
to China at some point in the future what it
did to Russia, which I'm not even.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Sure that that effective.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Against Russia, but against China it wouldn't have a big
impact necessarily, But if the China converted conversely did the opposite,
it would.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Have a big impact on US. So it seems like
a bad situation for the US well.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
But to be fair, one of the side effects of
the property boom in China, you know, Xi Jinping has
this idea that he can reduce his dependence on the
rest of the world by substituting out all the goods
that China now imports, all at least the manufactured goods
that China imports, and building up stockpiles of all the
(27:36):
commodities that China imports, And so if there was a
big interruption in trade, China's economy could continue to function
fair enough. One thesis. It's a pretty aggressive thesis. It's
aggressive in the sense that it's preparing for a negative contingency.
It's aggressive in the sense that it it engineers out
(27:57):
all of other countries' exports into manufactured exports into China.
But it doesn't change the fact that an enormous part
of the Chinese economy and a growing part of the
Chinese economy. All the people making excavators, for example, are
internal combustion engine cars for export. They their jobs depend
(28:17):
on access to export markets. So China's dependence on external
demand has gone up very, very significantly over the past
three or four years, even as China's reliance on imported
manufactured inputs has gone down. So China does have its
own very significant vulnerabilities in that respect.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
We're back to excavators as the prism through which to
understand China's Economy, lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez
and Dashel Bennett, with help from Moses Onam and kel Brooks.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Our sound engineer is Blake Maple's Sage Bouman is the
head of Bloomberg Pucks.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Please rate, review, and subscribe to ad Blots and lots
More on your favorite podcast platforms.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And remember that Bloomberg subscribers can listen to all of
our podcasts add free by connecting through Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Thanks for listening.
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