Dr. Jennifer Mullan on Decolonizing Therapy and Sacred Rage

Content Note: Discussion of intent to die.

Have you ever read a book that made you feel seen and heard from the first paragraph? 

My guest today is Dr. Jennifer Mullan. In this episode, we discuss Decolonizing Therapy, Rage, Community, and more. 

Dr. Mullan's book, Decolonizing Therapy, is a love letter and a call to action for helpers, healers, and spaceholders struggling inside the mental health industrial complex. It's a must-read for all clinicians, especially white folks. 

Jennifer Mullan, PsyD, is a major disruptor in the mental health industrial complex. Her work is an urgent call to dive to the root of global and generational trauma to unlock the wisdom of our sacred rage. 

Dr. Jennifer Mullan birthed Decolonizing Therapy®, a psychological evolution that weaves together political, ancestral, therapeutic and global well-being. She is also the creator of the popular Instagram account @decolonizingtherapy and recipient of Essence magazine’s 2020 Essential Hero Award in the category of mental health. Dr. Jennifer Mullan is the author of “Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma & Politicizing Your Practice” which has ignited a fervent wave of acclaim and community support as a National Best Seller.

Follow Dr. Mullan: Website: Dr. Jennifer Mullan & Decolonizing Therapy®

Instagram

In this episode, other important links:

The originator & creator of Rest Is Resistance framework by Tricia Hersey

Tuckman's stages of group development

 

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
My friends, this conversationso great and insightful.
Have you ever read a book that you feelseen and heard from the first paragraph?
Well, my guest today wrotea book like that for me.
My guest today is Dr.
Jennifer Mullan.
In this episode, we discussde-colonizing therapy.

(00:23):
Rage community and so much more.
Dr.
Mullan's book, Decolonizing Therapyis a love letter and a call to
action for helpers, healers, andspace holders, struggling inside the
mental Health industrial complex..
It is a must read for allclinicians, especially white folks.

(00:46):
Oh, yeah, she's working on a second book.
Hooray.
Dr.
Jennifer Mullan is a major disruptor inthe mental health industrial complex.
Her work is an urgent call to dive to theroot of global and generational trauma.
To unlock the wisdom of our sacred rage.
Dr.
Jennifer Mullan, birthDecolonizing Therapy®.

(01:10):
A psychological evolution thatweaves together political ancestral,
therapeutic and global wellbeing.
She's also the creator of thepopular Instagram account.
@decolonizingtherapy I hopeyou enjoy this episode.
I had such a great conversation with Dr.

(01:31):
Mullan.
I will add links to what Jennifertalked about in the show notes, as
always advice from me Yiyi your ChineseAunty is at the end of the episode.
Hello, Dr.
Jennifer Mullan.
I love that intro.

(01:52):
Hello, Patricia Petersen.
How are you?
I am great.
I am so excited to have you on.
Thank you for saying yes.
Thank you for having me andI'm just really humbled.
Thank you.
Now, do you like to go by Jennifer, Dr.
Jen?
I also know you're lovinglyknown as the Rage Doctor.

(02:13):
You can call me the Rage Doctor.
Jen, Dr.
Jen, whatever falls off the tongue,those generally work for people.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right, Jen.
Welcome.
First question is always please introduceyourself, how you identify anything
you want to share with the listeners.
Yeah, thank you.
well, Dr.

(02:34):
Jen or Jennifer or Rage Doctor, if you'dlike, I currently reside on Lenapehoking
(Lënapehòkink) land in what is now knownas New Jersey, in the States, uh, or is
now known as the States, I should say.
I grew up in Jersey City, NewJersey though, so if you're in the
New York area, you kind of havea little bit of an understanding.

(02:55):
Um, I grew up to Maria de Los SANEs,Mark Mullen and James Peter Mullan.
my father is of Irish and Italiandescent and my mother is Black Panamanian
and also grandmother K Find is, uh,Mayan and Kuna Indigenous as well.

(03:16):
She grew up.
In the jungle, literallyfor majority of her life.
And my people on my grandfather'sside, literally were forcibly
removed from various parts of thecontinent of Africa to build the canal.
So some of my people wereJamaica, Panama, it's sort of.

(03:40):
You know, colonization spread us out.
And let's see, I walk in the world asa Black, mixed race, Latinx, you know,
person, with invisible disabilities.
I live with what we understandas attention deficit disorder
and a hearing impairment.

(04:00):
And I identify as fluid inmy sexuality and identities.
And what else can I say?
Hmm.
I also come with all other intersections.
Yeah.
A lot of light skin privilege, right.
I come with living in a biggerbody as well and walking in that.

(04:21):
And I am the founder ofDecolonizing Therapy.
And part of that.
Is that this work I believe comes throughme, like through my pores, this is who
I am at my core and it is a culminationof 25 plus years of having been a

(04:42):
clinician or therapist practitioner,but also 15 plus years of having
really been organized and an activist.
As well as, I would say another10 or 15 of maybe my whole life of
having my ancestors and my culture andspirituality be very intertwined and

(05:04):
who I am and how I walk in the world.
For me, it's not separate from who I am.
It's not separate from the work thatI do, even if it doesn't come in
and come up every time or every day.
I also am highly sensitive.
empathic and sometimes I justknow things with a capital K.

(05:28):
And I find not all but many peoplethat have come to find themselves in a
therapeutic role and in a care role mighthave some variation of that of Knowing,
understanding, seeing beyond what ourmore traditional general Eurocentric

(05:48):
educations have imparted on us.
So my work in this world, if Ihaven't said enough already, right,
is I believe that decolonizingtherapy is paradigm shifting.
It wasn't intended to,I just want to say that.
It was never intended to, and I'll get tothat story later if you want me to, and

(06:09):
that it is a vehicle for re education.
Yeah, it's a vehicle for awakening andre education, , in saying, hey, Yeah,
we need people out there, maybe us tobe helpers, healers, space holders,
navigators of emotional, psychological,energetic, ancestral, historical pain.

(06:33):
Yeah.
And our current educations, andI'm generalizing right, 'cause
I think some educational systemsare getting with it a bit, a bit.
I don't know.
I'm giving them too much credit.
We could get into that one.

(06:54):
Yeah.
And so this work, yeah, ispredominantly for the helpers, the
carers, the therapists, and I thinkit's for the people that, um, Want
to be part of this paradigm shift.
It's for people that are involved insocial justice and decolonial work
that journey of the decolonial work.

(07:16):
And I think that is for people thatunderstand that the ancestral and
the political and the thematic.
And the collective cannot really beseparated from the work, the work, right?
But it can't, nor should it be.

(07:36):
And if that's the case, thenall of us need some extra re
education, including myself, right?
If that's the case, then everysingle one of us could use With extra
support and extra care, um, becausewe weren't meant to do this alone.
I don't believe that our ancestorsthat were the healers, the gurus, the

(07:58):
shamans, that didn't call themselvesthat they just were, they were appointed.
They were born into these names andidentities and ways of working with
plant medicine and ways of working withwounds in the body and ways of right.
Working with energy, perhaps aroundthe body dot, dot, dot, and all
these other ways that they were.

(08:20):
They were, they simply were, but theywere also taken care of by community.
Yes, and everything you said resonateswith me because community is one of
my just something is there for meit's like coming from a collectivist

(08:44):
culture so you know being Chinese,my ancestors were from China, born in
Singapore having immigrated to Canada.
Community is just such a lack, I find,and also so many of us, don't know how
to do community, a lot of people thinkof community that is so based on the

(09:06):
whole white supremacy individualisticthinking, and we don't understand
what it means to be in community.
I do really want you to share how youget into this work, because when you
were talking about education, so myeducation to becoming a counselor,

(09:28):
a therapist was based in Canada, andwe're lacking a lot of what, doing
it together, coming together, right?
And because everything is connected,we are connected to each other, but
a lot of the education to becoming atherapist, psychotherapist is so based

(09:50):
on, it's still so based on I'm betterthan you because I'm your therapist,
you know, and I often use this example,I often will check in with clients.
in between sessions, right?
Even just an email to say,Hey, I'm thinking of you.
How's it going?
And I had a client said to meafterwards, she goes, I love that.

(10:13):
But she's like, is that allowed?
And I said to her, why is it not allowed?
She goes, well, because there'sthis idea that you guys should
never have a good relationship.
It's that boundary . Then I saidto her, but who made up the rules?
Yes.

(10:33):
Yes.
And then she was like, Oh, right.
And now she gladly acceptsit when I check in.
, and one of the reasons I really love yourwork is because we need to spread the word
out that what we have been taught, whetherit's by with school or social media.

(10:56):
We're not helping each other.
We're just creating more distance.
will you share with us howyou got into this work.
thank you for that example as well.
I think it's so important thatwe also have teachable moments
that are not just related tolike the client and their world.

(11:19):
I mean, it relates to theirworld, of course, right?
But because you're modelinghow to open their worldview.
What you did was, I think a formof role modeling and a form of
maintaining your individuality.
Because I see clients online only, I dosay to them, I said, if you see me on the
street and you want to say hi, go ahead.

(11:42):
When I was doing my practicum,there were a few therapists that
was like, nope, absolutely not.
They see their client on thestreet and they turn the other way.
And I was like.
But how are we building thatrelationship with each other?
Yes, all of it.
Yes, yes, yes.
You know, what you're saying, for me,brings me to a place of, this work came

(12:09):
about because A, I don't, I really clearlyfelt and saw that community was essential.
And I learned that fromgrassroots organizing.
Yeah, I learned that fromstudents that were running.

(12:31):
Campaigns and encampments.
We're talking 20 years ago, right?
Like, you know, 15 years ago.
Um, and we're talking aboutstudents that made sure we were
traveling places to learn or getnew education and we were eating.
And here I am with a doctorate, right?
A doctorate, right?

(12:52):
I learned this also, though, from.
Immunity, literal, like, you know, theway we cared for each other, whether I
was walking to school and someone was onhouse and my mother's handing them a meal
without my father knowing, or, you know,whatever the case is, witnessing that.

(13:14):
If I was out of line and my mom wasn'tavailable, my aunt was going to step
in, witnessing that, you know, mycousins were variations of who I was,
and we were very different, and theywere part of me, and also witnessing
that You know, we really can't healwith the same methods and mentality

(13:41):
that harmed us in the first place.
And for me, that's really powerful becauseif we're constantly regurgitating and
learning and not that there's not anythingpositive about maybe a little bit, right?
about Freud or Charcot or this onelike, Manjaro and Pavlov and That that

(14:05):
that that that that that like, sure,there's parts of narrative therapy.
I adore.
Yes.
when my students were first comingin when I worked at a university
counseling center for 13 years.
Yes.
It was really helpful to talk aboutblack and white thinking and minimization
or magnification if they're like,oh, that assignment isn't going to

(14:25):
matter and that's not going to matter.
And, you know, sure.
It was really great to have themlook at ways and how do they grow
up and shift from adolescent.
Perhaps energies to responsibility, andwe don't need to throw out all personal
responsibility conversations when it comesto, learning how to sometimes repair it.

(14:47):
And I think we need to include community.
We need to include, role modeling.
And so I became a part, I joineda peer education group because
I was going into teaching.
I was a teacher for about a year forthird grade, and I realized that I
was useless at it because I cared moreabout their emotions and whether or

(15:11):
not they came fed and ready to learn.
Then I did them meeting lessons and gradesand I took away the grades and I got in
a lot of trouble And I wasn't even tryingto be like revolutionary or political.
I just was like five of them aredealing with loss divorce or parents

(15:32):
dying or grandparents passing.
Two of them have just moved.
So that's another kindof loss and adjustment.
Three, I remember very clearly andI can remember their faces, right?
Like three of them are dealingwith some form of abuse.
It's not completely clear, butwe're aware that this is happening.
Five of them are under resourced andare not eating healthy breakfasts and

(15:52):
there's not enough food in their house.
So my brain was like, Why are we overhere focusing on this for today when
we need to talk about how to deal whenwe get really overwhelmed so we don't
hit each other in third grade, right?
Like, you know, or, and I was teachingthem coping skills and then they
got really connected to me because,you know, we were reading and we

(16:16):
were laying on the floor and we wereimagining how we wanted our lives to be.
And they were doing meditation and wewere watching movies and because I think
their nervous systems needed to be.
resourced.
And so to answer your question,decolonizing therapy started because
of the people that I've served.
Community, you know, they've startedbecause of the students and the peer

(16:41):
education group I was telling you about.
I went on back into theuniversity and was hired there.
And I worked there for 13 years andlike many people, um, in our fields,
I was doing 20, 000 things at once.
So triage, you know, counseling, whichis what I was hired for doing therapy.
There was only three counselors, threeof us, plus my director who took on

(17:02):
clients, took on students cause shehad to, she didn't have to, but, and we
had a wait list of about 98 students.
pretty consistently a semester.
And I was burned out and I co foundedand co facilitated the LGBTQIA support
group with a peer, with a friend there.

(17:24):
We didn't get paid for that.
Like anything else I did, Idid not get compensated for.
I was salaried, right?
I taught two classes a semester.
Right, as a, as an instructor and adjunct.
so it was for the counseling grad program.
So it was multicultural counselingand often group group counseling and

(17:47):
I also ran this massive nationallyrecognized peer education program.
that was grounded inpsychological work on themselves.
So every Wednesday they'd come togetherto our meetings and we would talk about
family dynamics and substance abuse andwhat trauma is and trauma body exercises.

(18:08):
And I have retreats with themtwice a year where we would do
rage retreats, where we would dointergenerational trauma retreats, right?
So the PEP students, held meaccountable in one of our breakfasts.
Nobody was allowed to have phonesbecause this is their time.
I know families could call a dramabecause it was going to be drama.

(18:30):
Most of us grew up, most of themwere from the inner city, right?
Of Hudson County.
That's where I grew up as well.
And I would always tell them,it was always so interesting that
how every time we go to work onourselves, You know, those unhealthy
particles in our family system, right?
Those dyads, they would without a doubt,I need you, you need to come back.

(18:53):
You can't leave me.
You know, my stomach hurts.
I said, who's going to take, all this.
And it's like, I thinkthey're going to be okay.
Unless they die.
Unless they were really in chargeof taking care of something, right?
I think we're going to be okay, right?
I think you could check once a dayfor emergencies, but what is it
going to do if they're fighting?
How are you going to helpfrom two or three hours away?
Right.
And, my students, the last dayduring breakfast, cause we sat down

(19:16):
and had breakfast together and lunchand somebody would be cooking for
us, or we would order in bulk for theweekend so they could be nourished.
And they said, Jen, this work, thiswork has to go out in the world.
So we put you on Instagram.
I was so pissed.
I was like, what?
I'm not doing that.
That's for youngins.
I'm not doing that.

(19:37):
At the time, I was like, I'm nearly 40.
I'm not doing this.
You know, they're like, yeah,but the world needs, you need you
to talk about ancestral healing.
The world needs, like, no one's really,really, and this is going back, right?
A couple of years now.
And no one's really talkingabout how to work on your
intergenerational trauma, right?
No one's really talking about educatinghow like that grease that doesn't go away.

(20:00):
How do you learn to live with, you know?
And at that time there wasn't, I wasn't,there was no therapist on Instagram
talking about all of our shit, right?
Like this was not as common, right?
And so that's how it started.
Me just sitting at staff meetings orfaculty meetings, like doodling and

(20:20):
like pissed at the gaslighting, pissedat the lateral violence, pissed at the
anti Black racism, pissed and burnedout and nearly dying, literally,
literally, and having a peer thatI knew from another, university.
Have a heart attack on her desk, andfeel like she has to keep going and then

(20:43):
eventually pass and Just thinking thatshit is gonna be me It's gonna be me,
you know, to an extent where some ofmy students who I had great like you're
like you were sharing like that great,you know, rapport would come in and
sometimes they'd say like, I have to eat.
I'm like, eat, like,do what you need to do.
And sometimes like, let's sit outside.

(21:03):
You want to do this?
You want to move?
You want to, like, wedon't need to be in here.
And I remember like three or fourof them for a couple days in a
row were like, did you eat lunch?
Did you rest last night?
I was like, okay, this is getting bad.
You know, if they can,they're like, I don't know.
It's just your energy.
It's like you feel defeated.

(21:24):
Dr.
Jen.
And I'm like, damn, andthey're like, no, it's okay.
You're human.
And you know, nobody was like, like,they didn't need to take care of me,
but they also were taking care of me.
And I had to receive that thisstructure and the way that things
were working were killing me.
And some of my well meaning,really great white colleagues.

(21:46):
including my black supervisor.
I'm just saying there aresome of their identities so
that people understand, right?
How insidious white supremacy is, right?
How it plays out, um, wouldsay, well, you're going to
take better care of yourself.
And they didn't mean it harshly.
You know, like they didn't mean to bedemeaning to me and what I was doing,

(22:10):
but I was getting healing services.
I had my own therapy.
I was working out.
I was this, I was doing breath work.
I was doing all the self careand yet still being hospitalized
for dehydration when I wasdrinking a gallon of water a day.

(22:31):
My soul is dehydrated.
My spirit was dehydrated.
I was being used.
the last thing I'm going to say, causeI'm chatting a lot in this area, you know,
this question, you asked one question.
I was like,
but let me say that around thattime, my uncle was, I don't
identify as Christian or anything.
He's very Christian and hecalled me out of nowhere.

(22:55):
And I think I wroteabout this on Instagram.
And he's like, Hey Jenny,man, how you doing?
I'm like, good.
How are you?
He lives in Arizona.
He's like one of the most chillpeople I've ever met in my life.
Loves God.
This is his truth.
Right.
You know, and, um, just ajoy to be around, you know,
the 70s still looks great.
Dates.

(23:15):
It's like just living his best life,you know, good human, just a good human.
Um, and he's like, man,you got to slow down.
And I was like, why?
He doesn't even know.
It's not like I talk to him all the time.
My mother's not talking tohim every day, you know?
And he's like, yeah, you know, yourgrandparents came and your grandfather

(23:36):
worked so hard and my mom did too.
You know, my grandma,your grandmother did too.
And I know they taught youthe value of hard work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very immigrant, right?
Work hard.
Don't slow down.
Don't let them see you sweat.
Do work harder than what thepale face do this, do that.
Like you, you can't, you can't letthem see you tired, sweat, sick.

(23:59):
You, you drag yourself in there.
You study every day.
You do your circles for your penmanship.
That's my grandfather.
And really, you know, teaching mecapitals at like five, six years
old, all over around the world.
Where am I going to visit?
You know, who's this, who's acommunist, who's a capitalist, who's
a That was my grandfather, right?
That was my grandfather, like,teaching me history because it meant

(24:20):
a lot to him and our country, right?
And when the U.
S.
took over the Panama Canal and what thatwas about and Noriega and, you know,
I'm visiting Panama and seeing kidsand military with rifles and assaults.
So it was an intense time, yeah?
All of this to say, all of this to say,my uncle, my grandfather is now past, he's
my one of my favorite people in the world.

(24:42):
And my uncle goes, you know,your grandfather didn't
place you here to be a mule.
And I just felt it.
I quietly sobbed and I got it.
I couldn't leave immediately.
We wish it would be like, I'm leaving.
And then you have money and atrust fund, which I don't, right.
But I'm just sharing that to say.

(25:05):
I felt like that was likedivinely orchestrated, ancestrally
orchestrated, because it was likeeverything, doom, doom, doom.
Every time I was like, I'm not sure.
And I would go back in and kind of, Oh,but what a great work with this client.
And it was never the students or theclients that I didn't love, love them.

(25:25):
Right.
Love the community there.
But I had to also ask myself whatuse I was going to be if I Also role
modeled working myself to the bone.
And as Tricia Hersey talks aboutnot understanding the resistance in
different types of rest and that rest,doesn't just look like naps, right?

(25:48):
It can look like birdwatching.
It can look like walks.
It can look like, I don't know, playinga game with family or argue, you know,
whatever, there's lots of ways thatmaybe not arguing, but like rest can
come into our world and, you know, Sofor me, community gets born through
those kind of connections and forpeople being able to be honest with

(26:09):
you, even if you don't want to hear it.
Like, okay, I'm not feelingthis, but I'm going to step
away and then I'll sit on it.
Because I'm feeling resistance, and Idon't know if the resistance is like, no,
you're wrong, or the resistance is there'ssomething there that I need to say.

(26:31):
So good.
Yeah, so good.
So much there but also theinfluence by Western social media
is that if you rest, if you're notproductive, it means you're failing.
If you're not constantly doingthat means you're not enough.

(26:54):
And it's created so much harmfulfor our lives our nervous system.
. I'm curious, was there a moment in yourlife career wise where you realize that
that stood out to you of, oh, Ireally need to, help students

(27:18):
or do therapy my own way becausethe traditional way isn't working.
Yeah.
It's funny you ask that.
Yeah.
That's a great question.
And it makes me like emotionalbecause, um, no, so many, yeah.
I'm like, I'm like, just like, Oh, youknow, when there's moments where you're
just like, again, all in a row, youknow, dun, like all of these in a row.

(27:43):
I had been working withthe peer educators.
Now, mind you, I was not their therapist.
Right.
, so it gave me also a little bitof place and space to have some
freedom to, I was definitelyholding therapeutic frame with them.
Right.
And we were definitely engaging astherapists in some ways, but they
had their individual therapists.
It's, um, and I would tell themthis isn't group therapy, but

(28:05):
these are our group guidelines.
This is our therapeutic groupspaces and so on and so forth.
And,, I was able touse various modalities.
And also check in with them, right?
And I also was sort of their boss, asa lot of them were work study students,
not all of them, or volunteers for thepeer education office, like we would
do interactive presentations on campus.

(28:28):
On, mental health and substance abuse,intimate partner violence, right?
And I also wrote grants forthat and supervise them.
I didn't do enough work.
I didn't do enough.
Right.
But it saved my life when I was ateenager and a lot of them saw my peers,
my colleagues at the counseling center.
And I remember one of mycolleagues, we were working with

(28:51):
someone for who, let me rewind.
I was teaching a class.
And the student comes up to meafter the second or third class
and in their own way and a littlebit of a activation warning here,
in case anyone I'm going tomention wanting to be not alive

(29:12):
and the student very clearly articulatedtheir plans for that evening.
to unalive themselves.
And this was such a bright,beautiful, even if they weren't, of
course, I would have engaged, right?
But this was just like sucha bright, beautiful student.
I'm still in contact with him today.
I attended his wedding, justgive you an example here.
So it goes to a nice place,but it definitely dipped.

(29:35):
and this person I was always like, Oh,you can talk about whatever you want.
You can give them my name.
It's like, I'm not giving anyoneyour name, but, but this person had
a great deal of trauma has trauma.
Yeah.
And as anything that I'm going to talkabout when I'm teaching, you're not
going to get it straight from the book.
If anyone has read my book or skimmed itor started working on it or chewing on

(29:55):
it or checking out my Instagram, you knowthat it's not just going to be purely
psychology or mental health, right?
Like that we're going to talkabout those big feelings and family
dynamic or the otherness of things.
And this individual was malecisgender Dominican, Dominican.
Growing up in a pretty tough familythat survived a lot, pretty tough.

(30:22):
Brothers were, were and aretough in and out of prison.
And this person was just thegentlest, sensitivest spirit ever.
And when they said that to me, Iwas like, I'd like you to come back
with me to my office, to the center.
You know, when they said they want totake their lives, um, because we need
to have this conversation and I want to,you know, feel this out and I'd really

(30:47):
like you to stay and that's my agenda.
I'm a pretty honest therapist.
I'm like, that's my agenda,but you also shared with me.
So I'm going to take that, thatthere's a shred of hope here, right.
That you do want to stay too.
And they were like, yeah,but I just don't see how.
And I said, great.
I'm a great problem solver.
Let's rock this out.

(31:07):
Right.
You know, so we go back.
And also I'm his professor.
Right.
And so of course I got quote unquotein trouble and I'm like, you know,
F this field and these dual rolesand I'm like, what you would do
you would you have like me to justquote unquote pass off the student.
To someone else who theyhad no connection with.

(31:29):
They did not share with, I hadthe opportunity to hold space.
I also let my colleagues know what wasgoing on when I came in and that I might
need them when they finished up withtheir session, I had to interrupt their
session, you know, so there was a lot,there was a lot happening and I did the
best I could and I still stand by it.
And so does this person.
And,

(31:51):
I left the door open.
and assess that they were notgoing to physically harm themselves
with anything in my office, right?
Because, you know, we were scannersand we're thinking, , we're
constantly million things in one.
Yep.
And I provided some like little toysor fidgety things and you know, and
little things to like, , and I waslike would you like me to put on music?

(32:13):
No music.
What do you need?
What do you want?
And I said, I just need a second.
I informed my colleague becausethere was only two of us.
It was late.
So they were the only one late there.
And they said, okay, I'll checkin right as soon as I'm done.
Let me know if you need anything.
I'll look at my phone.
And I come back and this personis literally on the floor,
like they're three years old.

(32:35):
Sobbing, crying for their motherand, naming their abuser and what
has happened in very vivid detail, youknow, as if they're re experiencing it.
So, without getting intofurther details, that's enough.
It was more intense for quite some timeand I sat and held space and then, um,

(32:59):
literally it was like an hour later andthey were just like bodily visceral.
visceral, shaking, dissociative,then back, then dissociative.
And, , my centre at the time wouldoften feel like, okay, I need
to send them to the hospital.
Right.

(33:20):
And even at that stage, I knew Thatif I sent this person to the hospital,
there was a very good likely that theywould return not to class or not to
me return to finish what they started.
Yeah.
And I at least felt like it was,I didn't think that the hospital
was going to bring them back intheir bodies and regulate them.

(33:40):
I think that they could havemedicated them, which may have been
needed or fine for some people.
Um, but everything in my intuitive self.
And clinical self, right?
Everybody.
And I'm going to share this veryopenly and, you know, people out
there can have their thoughts.
Um, his grandmother appeared to me

(34:03):
who had passed, I found out, and I'vebeen able to tell him this years later.
Yeah.
His grandmother appeared to me veryclearly providing direction and
explaining what she thought washappening and that she had been with
him for a couple of years watching.
Like, so she didn't letherself completely move
She knew, um, she wasa safe place for him.

(34:28):
And of course I had my moment of,oh, there's something wrong with me.
Because although I had seen andknown before, there was something
super clear and super like with aclient, like this had never happened
with like a person in this manner.
And so I tapped out with my colleague.
You know, let, let this personknow, um, let them know.

(34:50):
And I even wrote a little note inconstruction paper in case they came to,
and, you know, I was stepped away and Iwas like, I just need to use the restroom.
And I had a moment of,
and I quickly texted, um, my long termtherapist who I was able to talk about

(35:11):
my multiple ways of knowing with andsaid, I know we don't do this too much.
Shouldn't like, but.
I just need to check in for a second.
I need, I need, I need, I needaccountability, any community,
like, and she was like, keepgoing, Jennifer, trust yourself.
Like, what else is she saying to you?
Is she saying anything harmful?

(35:31):
Is she, you know, she just re remindedme of what I already know, or the
voice is telling me, or the, is thevision, you know, and I'm just seeing
through her, but like seeing herand not seeing her and just hearing
and knowing what to do, right.
Just knowing what to do.
And, I came back, I knelt down,because, you know, we were kind of
on the floor, giving them space,and the center was closed, and the

(35:54):
student came back around in some way.
And they were like, you know, where am I?
And I just re reminded them.
I introduced my colleague.
They ended up being long term,uh, client and therapist.
Eventually, so it was a reallygood, cause I was able to like hear,
like it was a healthy tap off ina way, but not in that moment, not
in that moment, but eventually, youknow, for years, years, they worked

(36:18):
together, years, years, years, years.
Um, and.
Why I want to, I'm bringing this up inparticular is because You know, recently,
um, he has two daughters and recentlyhe says to me, you know, random thought.

(36:38):
I'm like, yes.
Where's this coming from?
I haven't heard from you in six months.
Like random thought, like you and Dr.
So and so saved my life.
Like, you know that, right?
Like that wasn't a joke.
And I know that I've told you before,and I'm not saying this because
I care about you and I love you.
And my family loves you.
Like, I'm not saying that for thisI'm saying it because if you would

(36:59):
have sent me to the hospital.
I would have done it there.
I would have.
And I was like, I know, you know,um, not I know, I know, like, I know,
I felt, I know, like, I know, youknow, I felt you were that close.
Like, so yeah, I'm just sharing thatto say that we were able, um, in peer

(37:22):
education and with therapy, he was ableto be held by a group of people that
were strangers that came to be family.
They've argued sometime.
They loved each other.
Sometimes they're, youknow, peer educators.
He dated and I was like, no, don't date,you know, but I'm bringing all of this up
to say that that one night wasn't enough.

(37:44):
Right.
We, he, they needed community.
Right.
And there were some retreats where, Ooh,I would have to tell people that I'm
bringing They're going to need to stepout like he's not going to be able to hold
all that right like this is a lot for him.
And there's times wherehe would be shaking.
And no matter what we did, it wouldstill happen and we would ask the
group to step out we're going to end,I'm going to sit with this person.

(38:08):
And then.
Within four years of his own therapy,peer education, love, struggles, all
of it, you know, finally finding amajor with actually in health sciences
with the chair that I was friendswith and that I knew how to nurturing.
I really think it wasabout the nurture, right?
It was sort of you can't be here today.

(38:30):
So and so we get you.
And No student ridiculous, but thisperson that's how it was ridiculous and
anything they would want to touch anythingthey would want to touch and, um, they
just couldn't see it that hatred was soembedded and deep and was not his own.
And so when we were able toreally get to that four years

(38:52):
in, it took about four years tostabilize the nervous system enough.
Right.
And to stabilize some of thehistorical traumatic activity, because
I did not want him bouncing intoa psychotic, Eurocentric term, out
of body permanently enough state.
Does that make, I hope that makes sense.
A hundred percent.
Because I think, I think like you, because

(39:17):
if you had sent him, if youhad sent him off that night.
Which is what Eurocentric therapytraining say we need to do
because we're not supposed toget involved, da, da, da, da, da.
But I think you'll agree with me.
Many people, especially those of uswho identify as BIPOC, people of

(39:41):
color, is that we don't have communityand we are missing that witnessing,
the people to hold space for us.
You know.
One of the reasons I started thispodcast and I often tell my clients
is because 90 percent of my clientsare women of color, Asian women

(40:03):
.And I started this podcast, is that 80 years ago, 100 years ago, you and I, if we
have an issue, we'll have grandmothers togo to, we'll have aunties to go to, uncles
to go to, sisters, cousins, we will sit,have tea, have coffee, talk it out, right?
how many of us have that anymore?

(40:23):
We don't.
We don't.
And, , so, We need to find communityand we need to find people who knows
how to hold space, who know that ifI text you, Hey, Jen, I'm having a
difficult day, you will text backand not wait for a week to text back.
Now, yes, let's insert a lotof people are at capacity.

(40:46):
A lot of people don't have that.
But I also don't think that texting backgoing, Okay, I hear you is that difficult.
I agree with you.
No, I agree with you.
We need that.
Right.
And we also need to learn how to receive.
Yes.
There's something as you were sayingbefore so beautifully about like

(41:08):
the social media climate as well.
Um, there is this danger of like,yeah, same community, but not, not
embodying it, not embarking on it.
Yeah.
Because it takes bravery.
To be vulnerable.
Like shoot, individualtherapy takes bravery, right?

(41:28):
Exposing yourself, couples or friend,pair, whoever, you know, family therapy
is super brave, but so is sitting infront of virtually or in person, right?
Strangers.
Because you're being judged, you're, youknow, re triggered, activated, they're
looking at me a certain way, they don'tlike me, people will think I'm weak,

(41:51):
you know, and then I think the beautyof it is I've always been a fan and I
know there's like thoughts about thisperson in the theater, but like, the
forming, storming, norming, reforming,when we talk about group work, I can't
remember his name right now, but I'vealways utilized that and taught it to
my groups, like to my peer educators.
I'm like, where are we right now?

(42:13):
Are we informing?
Are we forming alliances?
So we're like, Okay.
This is my best self, right?
Like everyone like me, or thisisn't gonna work for me and I
don't want to do this, right?
What, how do we come in this?
Are we storming?
Right?
That's where this ish gets real,where there's a conflict, or we
start splitting, and then there'swhere I'm really needed here.

(42:36):
I mean, you know, I reallyhave to like, hold it down.
Um, are we splitting?
Are we reforming?
So there's all these stages of groupdevelopment, but I would dare say all
these stages of community development.
And when I look at the collective,I'm actually in the middle of
like writing something about this.
When I look at the us right now.

(42:57):
What I see are adolescents and toddlersand children starving infants and
some adults starving for connection.
What I mean by adults is whatI mean energetic inside, right?
Like, you know, like, like mostof us are still like a little bit
arrested at a certain age, right?

(43:17):
Stuck at a certain age and, juststarving to be like loved on
even with the imperfections.
Yeah.
And how many out there thinkthat, as adults, if we just pick.
Adults in a sense, but we're still stuckon a different developmental stage,
also a lot of people with traumahave become so avoidant in a sense

(43:41):
that I can survive on my own.
I don't need anybody.
I don't need community.
But on the other hand, the real feelingis, but I so need to be seen and loved,
but I don't know how to ask for it.
So the vulnerable piece is so great.

(44:02):
, Will you talk about your relationship with rage?
And also what you're seeing that ishappening in the world right now.
And the universities.
How the students are being treated.
Anything that comes to mind for you.

(44:27):
Yeah, thank you.
because rage these days alwayswants to come into conversation.
So thank you for making space for it.
So let me say this, rageis a healthy emotion,
period.
Right.
what is not healthy.
is constantly inflicting harm onourselves in some way, shape or form,

(44:51):
consciously or unconsciously, becausewe're trying to suck in that rage,
trying to avoid it coming out andbe what's not okay and not healthy.
And I'll never condone is like, usingsomeone else as a punching bag, right?
Or harming mentally, emotionally,physically, sexually, in any way, right?

(45:12):
Energetically, right?
It's never okay to take any ofour big feelings and just decide
that people are punching bags.
But that's often how we learn about ourbig feelings though, as we know, right?
Like, I mean, not that it shouldkeep happening, but sometimes
having this moment of like, Ohwow, this is an issue for me.

(45:33):
Right, not just intellectualizingit, but like my partners hurt because
of the way I spoke to them like,oh, I need to deal with this or not.
Right.
Or I might lose the relationshipor I might, you know, so I say this
to say that my work, I believe.
are twofold.
One, helping people understandthat we need, deserve, and deeply

(45:56):
desire a relationship to our rage.
Need, deserve, and desirea relationship to our rage.
Um, and I'll quickly explain that injust a second, but also B, that it can
become sacred, meaning special, important.
Tender, um, ancestral.

(46:19):
Yeah, meaning that it'sgiving us information.
And so, um, if you remember, I justsaid that rage deeply deserves, right?
Um, to be heard.
Um, made space for.
And so why I'm saying this and howwe can make this relationship work is
allowing ourselves an opportunity to seewhat it's about and whether or not we

(46:45):
internalize it, which usually leads to agreat deal of anxiety and panic attacks.
Or incessant worrying, or, um, does itcome out in constant irritability with
people around us, agitation, nothing isgood enough, perfectionism, martyrdom,
yeah, um, over, over involvement inissues that doesn't, there's no space

(47:13):
for joy or pleasure or breath or,um, and so the thing is that rage.
Is the love child of ancestral trauma,shame, and suffocated grief, where
you see rage, you see grief and rageis almost always about caring and

(47:35):
loving so much, even people that youdon't know people, humanity, these
students, right, feeling so protective,so much love, so much identity.
That I can't help but stop this.
I can't help but say something.
I can't help but post about it.

(47:57):
I can't help but bring it up at family,whatever, whatever our thing is, right?
Because we understandthat harm is being caused.
That's going to vibrate forgenerations and generations and
generations and generations, not justto Palestinians or Congolese people
or people from the Sudan, right?
But, and especially tothem and their lineage.

(48:19):
Especially, but, and, Yemenis, peoplefrom Yemen, and, and people of Jewish
descent that are like, hell no, not on ourfucking watch, as well as, I would dare
say, the individuals that are continuing.
Right.
This level of harm, what's going tohappen to their generations in the

(48:42):
future and their babies being born now.
And what are some of the socializationthat they're receiving about land
and what is yours and how to takewhat is yours and feels like,
um, built up resentment, right.
And a sense of entitlement.

(49:04):
And so this is going to vibrate forgenerations, as well as those of us.
That, I don't wanna put this ineveryone, on everyone, like this
helplessness, this, this feelingof like, even if I'm doing this or
this, it still feels like not enough.
And I do think that the Westhas been coaxed into a lullaby.

(49:28):
not a pretty one, the dark one wheresome, if you stick your head in the
sand long enough, it'll go away.
Some that, you know,we're just gonna respond.
And deal when there's acrisis, when it gets bad.
Right.
And I find that problematic, lovinglyproblematic because, um, sticking your

(49:54):
head in the sand is a trauma response.
We know that.
And I have compassion.
I do it sometimes, you know,depending on what it is.
I don't want to deal all thetime and we don't always have to.
And, um, we look back on, right, theJapanese internment camps, and Trail
of Tears, and the residential schools,and the Holocaust, and transatlantic,

(50:18):
and we could keep going, right, withthings that have happened to many of our
peoples, the Turkish genocide, Armeniangenocide, like we could keep going here.
Rwanda, don't get me, youknow, we can keep going.
Um, and we say, I would have done this.
And I would have done that.
And I would have, and now here we are withthis sort of like mirror to our ancestors

(50:45):
and saying, shit, well, this is hard.
I might be risking my job.
I might be risking my best friend.
I'm risking this relationship.
So, you know, and thereare thousands dying, being
murdered, murdered straight up.
Um, cornered strategically and murdered.

(51:08):
No universities left hospitals, right?
People are dying from urinarytract infections, childbirth.
Like this is, we need tocall it what it is, right?
And those of us with enoughprivilege, I do believe that
we need to come up for air.
Whatever that looks like to us.
So, so all of this connectswith rage and grief, right.

(51:32):
And love and like, and rageis the great boundary holder.
So those of us with poorish orpoorer boundaries have a tendency.
to have a hard time with rage.
Yeah.
And I'm going to actually jot that down.
Cause that feels a poor boundarybecause I feel like I've been

(51:53):
looking for a word to describe it.
Um, but we struggle with it so muchbecause rage is not rude all the time.
It's just like, Oh no.
No, I'm not able to do that.
Thank you.
I can't take that extra client.
That's great.
But that doesn't work for me.
I can't go an extra five minutes.
I'm sorry.
So, so rage, I think really comes out likea tidal wave when we don't show up for

(52:20):
ourselves and hold a really simple, tinyboundaries consistently, consistently.
And I do think it's connected to intimatepartner violence, it's connected to race
based traumatic stress, it's connected to
everything, right?
Right?
Um, including peoplethat say they just snap.

(52:40):
Well, no, you didn't just snap.
There were leads up many people.
There were leading up moments andresentments and swallowing yourself
and trauma and being mistreated and,you know, um, no place or space in our
mind that You think we can release?
And sometimes people gethurt because of that.

(53:00):
And so that's why I talk about rageso much and try to teach people to
feel it in small doses, to build arelationship to it on a daily basis.
Even like a small journal prompt.
What does my rage want me to know today?
Where's my rage in my body?
Where's my grief in my body?
Right?
Um, I have a small little sacredcenter for my rage, and I have a

(53:22):
picture of myself when I was a kid.
When I started being silenced, I lookhappy, but it started right around there,
where abuse started, silencing started,hating my gender as a female started,
right, like, you know, like where itstarted, where I started speaking too
much, and then the men in my familyare like, Oh, no one's gonna love you.

(53:43):
You're too much, right?
You're too much.
Be more like your mother.
Be a little quieter, justclean up without complaining.
It sounds basic, but it's so not, right?
Like, ha ha ha!
So, I could go on forever, and Iwill in a book in the future, or
an audio program, but what I willsay for now is that, um, rage has

(54:08):
come to be one of my best friends.
It's truly one of my favoriteemotions, which is why I dedicate
so much of my life to it.
And I've seen my, some of my verypeer educators and other people, um,
sob and scream with a buddy, a buddymonitoring and holding them and say, I'm
going to put my hand on your back now.
You got this.
Okay.
Let's clean your nose.
Let's okay.

(54:29):
We're going to move you to thisstation because rage wants to sob.
Rage wants remembrance, right?
Um, it'll just be anger if it didn'tinvolve one of our historical wounds.
It would just be anger if itdid not involve one of our
historical ancestral wounds.
Then you'd just be angry.

(54:49):
I'm pissed off.
My boss did this.
Pissed off.
I tripped down the stairs.
You know, whatever the case is, right?
I'm mad.
But rage is like, not again.
Rage is like, I remember this.
I feel this.
This is Right.
It's shaking feet, likecoming out of your skin.

(55:09):
Even if it looks quiet, yousee people, you know, moving
their leg a mile a minute.
Ripping their nail, right?
Is it anxiety or is it internalizedrage that has nowhere to go?
Road rage.
Yes!
And ancestral work is so important.

(55:33):
Acknowledging doing ancestral healingwork, because then recognizing what
has been passed down, and adding on towhat you said the generational trauma
that has been created by what's happenedin Congo, Sudan, Palestine, Gaza.

(55:53):
And every time we, I see on the newsI say to my husband, the thing is, The
perpetrators don't get the generation,the impact it's going to have.
I'm an ordained Buddhist.
So it's so much of it is aboutkarma and stuff like that.
And I just look at it and my heartis, I can't take what generations

(56:17):
will have to do to feel this traumathat's being put on their descendants.
It's going to takegenerations to heal this.
That trauma right and it brings usback to our work in the world right
where it's like this, our work in theworld is also to speak up about what

(56:38):
we see happening and that can lookdifferent right that can look at like
in our classrooms or in our, you know,to kids or nieces, nephews, right?
Like that can look different, butI think it's important for mental
health practitioners to not justdo this neutrality dance, right?
Because it's really effing harmful.
You know, it's really, really harmful.

(57:01):
Um, if we want to get into like,you did this and you did that
and visited it and did it, right.
We need to stop murdering.
Is this, this killing is not going toallow for a conversation where there's not
going to be any viable land left, right?
, the land is bleeding, right?
The land is raging.

(57:22):
The land has sentient as well.
And the animals and the Right.
And so I'm like, why am Isobbing seeing this little girl
holding this little kitten?
You know, like what, because catsare venerated and highly honored
also in Palestine and right.
Like, you know, Palestinians andcats have a long lineage together.
Even saying that I get emotional becauseit's like, yo, like this is culture

(57:45):
we're talking about that is beingdecimated or attempt to decimate culture.
Right.
And that is something for us to be.
All deeply enraged about and like, to behonest, and I just came from a meeting.
Um, there's a consulting groupwork I'm holding and I was really

(58:05):
proud of myself, even though Iknew they were a little blown away.
I said, Okay, are we ready to deal withthe fact that if in this group with
all of your colleagues, right, somebodysays something that is highly Zionist,
highly violent, that I'm going to stopit and I'm going to call it violent.

(58:28):
And, and so I'm not, I gotta work.
I didn't say it this way,but I don't work for y'all.
Like, like, like decolonizingtherapy is pro Palestine, pro
people in life and, um, pro healingtrauma, not the recreation of it.
So, no, I'm not going into the groupsaying that, but should it come up

(58:51):
that there starts to be stoppingpeople from talking about things or
harm, I will not falter on how I land.
And I, just letting you all know,and they were like, yeah, well, we,
we, we, we think we could reroute itand I'm like, and I'm letting you all
know that I will not stand in my groupspaces for that kind of violence.

(59:16):
Right.
Um, and that is violence, right?
It is violent.
Right.
And it's gaslighting andit's, you know, it's horrible.
And so, um, things like that, I would, Iwouldn't have maybe done five years ago.
I might've felt a little toointimidated or too, I need the money.
I need, you know, youget what I'm saying here?
Yes, I get it.
Because I mean, same as you,five, eight years ago, I wouldn't,

(59:39):
learning to speak my truth.
Has been one of the biggest lesson I'vehad to learn this lifetime, and yeah,
I get I really, I really sometimes Ithink I need to stay off Instagram.
I love Instagram, because I'mvery picky about who I follow.

(01:00:02):
And sometimes I need to stay offit because I'm like, you people
are not talking about this at all.
I see you people with bazillion followers.
You are not even addressing this.
And usually you and I know who,and who those accounts are.
We're not even going to name ithere, but during 2020 with the anti

(01:00:25):
Asian racism hate, I unfollowedso many people because I just.
You claim to be my friend, butyou couldn't even reshare a post
about the harm that was being done.
And we're seeing it now.
I saw it during Black LivesMatter, during the Me Too movement.

(01:00:46):
We're seeing it now again.
A lot of people with the, because I thinkthis is where community comes in, right?
I think if you have an account thathas so many followers, you have a
responsibility to talk about these things.
I agree.

(01:01:07):
I agree.
And yes, everything you're saying, 120%.
And at the same time, I'm likedisappointed with some people that
I thought were friends, you know,that, that I've done work with that
are talking hypothetically abouttrauma or generational trauma and

(01:01:28):
are not like, how do we talk aboutracial trauma, generational trauma,
without also acknowledging that muchof that is currently being activated.
Yeah, and that for meis really disappointing.
And it also gives me clarity of who Igive my access and energy to, right?

(01:01:49):
Because it starts to feel reallyicky and it starts to feel like,
okay, well, if you're open tolearning, I'm open to stepping up
and sharing why this is important.
If you'd be open to the conversation,but you're not open to the conversation
and you just want to promote yourproduct, Or your book or your whatever,
and it's good and you're, whatyou're doing is good in the world.

(01:02:11):
It's affecting people positively, butwe're missing, you're missing a chunk of
what is happening in the here and now.
And that's exactly what peoplelike you and I push up against.
That therapy is not justwhat happens in the room.
We can't keep it neat.
We can't just be neutral, like,Oh, you can say whatever you want.

(01:02:32):
You know, I remember a client, he was astudent and he was young, cis, white male.
, And he kept saying he was struggling withsome dating issues and not feeling wanted.
And he would say, he would say thingsand I started realizing, I'm like,
wait, these are micro macro aggressions.

(01:02:53):
This is race.
Like at a time I was just like, Neutral,gotta be there, gotta, you know, and
it would start out a little bit like,okay, this is just his truth or, oh,
if I lived in the middle of Kansas orOhio, I would be the hottest guy around
when we were in Jersey City, right?
With predominantly Arab, Filipino,Black, Indigenous, Puerto Rican, you

(01:03:14):
know, like, haha, Chinese, right?
Super diverse, like super,super, like Toronto, super
diverse, super diverse, right?
Um, and he would say, Oh, you know,there's no attractive women on campus.
There's no attractive women on campus,all these black and, and Latin women.
So of course I, just of how doesit feel to have a, you know,

(01:03:36):
use a very stereotypical, liketherapeutic cause he deserved that.
How does it feel tohave a black therapist?
I was able to have a, you know,a therapist that identifies, You
know, uh, Oh, Oh, not you, not you.
And then the next time, right.
And when, of course I called him in onthat, but still I didn't feel like I
had the backing and the support at thetime from my team to be able to do that.

(01:03:59):
And what was in my mind is this youngman is going to have power over me.
If he goes to the president and saysthat she made this a racial issue, right.
Cause I'm working for us.
This is real.
This is very, you know, and then the lasttime this person comes in and is like,
And then I stopped it, he comes in andhe's like, well, um, you know, you would

(01:04:26):
be an even better therapist if you wereable, if you, what did he say something
like, not that if you were white, but itwas very close to that, like it was infer,
you know, inferring that like what youprobably went to this school, didn't you?
You probably got your education here.
So it's not the same as like somebodyfrom Yale that doesn't know that.

(01:04:46):
I gave him some education.
I said, are you open to some feedback?
He's like, that's what I'm here for.
I'm like, great.
I'm so glad to hear you say that.
Gave education.
Let him know how, what he wassaying, how it impacted me.
And how I imagine that might beimpacting other people and how
that might be impacting his dating
and that there were some undertones.

(01:05:08):
I didn't say undertones, butundertones of racism that I
imagine that that were coming up.
And I imagine we're also impactinghis dating and friendship because he
couldn't get along with anyone either.
Yeah, he fired me.
I'm firing you right now.
And I said, well, that also isa very common thing for a white.
Okay.
man to say.

(01:05:29):
And he complained to myboss and whatever, whatever.
But you know, that changes me too.
That's why decolonizingtherapy is here too.
Does that make sense?
Because, because of momentslike that, where I was like,
wait, I'm a full person as well.
Like, you don't get to keep Likeabusing me because it's starting.
I've let you know how it made mefeel or I've let you know that

(01:05:50):
some people could take it this way.
You're not making any effort to change.
Right.
I, then I'm like, okay, now workwith another white person because I
can't, I don't want to hold this vial.
Yes.
And so I want to give us permission,all of us to see our humanity.
And that's why I wrote this bookbecause I, I mean, it's like for young

(01:06:11):
me, that was too afraid, but, okay.
Or very saying it anyway and gettingin trouble, good trouble all the time,
all the time, all the time, or, andalso for every single one of us because
I think we give and give and give andgive, and I want to be able to pour
back into the givers and the healers.

(01:06:33):
Brilliant.
Is there a second book coming?
This morning I was thinkingabout my conversation with you.
I thought, I don't know.
It is nothing.
There's no contract.
There's, but yes.
There's no contract, but yes,yes, there's, um, discussion and

(01:06:55):
work that needs to get done more,
hide myself away somewhere.
Um, and I don't know aboutyou, I'm a, I don't, in Western
astrology, I'm a Cancer Sun.
And so, , I'm awfully sentimental andI get attached to people and things

(01:07:18):
that mean a whole lot to me in a lovingway, you know, and so this decolonizing
therapy book, I'm like, well, I don'twant it to not be important anymore.
And, you know, my friends and folksand agent is like, It's still there.
I'm going to do its work and I'm like,but I want therapists to know I care,
you know, it's okay, you know, you can.
So I'm working on not beingcodependent with my first book.

(01:07:44):
I would like to add that it's doingits work, and you have people like
us who are telling all their friendsto read it who are therapists.
So it is doing its work.
, I'm Cancer Rising, so I get that.
Do you want to share with me or us yourmoon and your sun, if you don't mind?

(01:08:05):
Uh, I'm Aries.
That would be sun, right?
Moon is Aquarius.
Ooh, so you have fire, air, and water.
What about you?
What are your signs?

(01:08:25):
I have a cancer sun of Virgo rising.
Oh, I know.
Thank you.
I take condolences and, and,, Capricorn moon, but I have many,
many, many, many planets in Virgo.
I know.
I know.
And so some people sometimes upon meetingme, it's like, it's the Virgo, you

(01:08:47):
know, that, that, that mask, but reallyinside, I just love people generally.
And I'm a really good, I loverelationship, relational, relationality.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
When I was a yoga teacher, many,many, many years ago at training,

(01:09:08):
four roommates, three Virgos.
Oh, sorry.
You made it out.
It must have been a very tidy household.
You know, interestingenough, so of the three.
One, she was really young.
She was probably in her early 20s.
She was the most untidy.

(01:09:29):
Then there was one that webecame really good friends
and she was about, in her 40s.
I was 30.
And the other one, the thirdone, she was in her mid 60s.
She was also very untidy.
The only tidy one was the onethat I became friends with.
It was very, but again, I wasn't intoastrology at the time when I came

(01:09:51):
back and started getting astrology.
It was like, Oh, wow.
I've got a couple more questionsfor you if you have a bit of time.
Yes.
I can do like five more.
Okay.
Great.
That would be great.
, question one, any advice fornew therapists, especially those

(01:10:15):
who are not people of color.
Okay.
New therapists that arenot people of color.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Please, please, please.
I'll sing it if I haveto sing it, please work.
Like.
Okay.
Learn about your people's history.

(01:10:36):
I'm going to make a statement here.
I believe, and I'm generalizing, butit's also generally true with a lot
of the students I've worked with indoctoral programs, counseling programs.
Um, you, you can be dangerousunconsciously or not when
you do not understand A,obviously your privilege, right?

(01:10:58):
Even if you're living with other.
Disabilities, intersectingidentities, queerness, not that
there's not discrimination there.
However, , if you are not acknowledginghow your people have harmed and
taken and got away with a wholelot of shit, and even with all

(01:11:22):
your hard ass work, you're worthy.
You're important in the world and you havea lot to give the world and we need you.
And before trying to work with othercommunities immediately, if you can
also make sure you're working with yourown people and organize and elevate and
educate and re educate your own people.

(01:11:44):
And if I'm going to be having to workon my shit and Patricia's going to have
to be working on her shit her wholelife, best believe that y'all really
have to work on your shit and getaccountability and be in accountability.
For the rest of your lives.
And that doesn't mean it always hasto feel arduous or icky or heavy.

(01:12:04):
I think that the more we know ourselvesand the more we're able to take feedback,
the less, I don't know if you feellike this too, sometimes you can feel.
Um, a white ally, accomplice, a communitymember that can take that feedback
that is consistently doing that work.

(01:12:25):
They're not perfect.
They're not a good one.
You know, they just, it just,they don't, it doesn't feel like
all stepping on eggshells oroverly having to say, I'm an ally.
It's like you show an action youshow by what you study and you learn
in the little bit of informationyou bring out you show by.
Letting me speak and at the same timestepping up and speaking out rather

(01:12:48):
than letting the axe fall on us.
Yeah?
And there's a different way aperson carries themselves that
is a, a gentle confidence.
And uh, cause I have some greatally white friends that will also
say, I don't know about that.
Like that's, that's not my experience,but Jen, I fucking believe you.

(01:13:09):
Like I hear you and like, what do I do?
How can I help?
But it's not like.
You know, like is that like, so wewant to attain that level of be you
don't like apologize for being bornCuz that's traumatic and then you're
passing that on right and no, hopefullyyou're not some of your colonizing
ass violent racist ancestors andWhite bodied supremacy is sticky.

(01:13:36):
It is insidious It hides, it isin our DNA and the sinew and our
muscles and in our freaking bones.
And I have to contend with thatas a mixed race person too.
And we'll always have to check myself onthat shit and always be held accountable.
Right?
So even if I'm not treated that way inthe world, right, even if the world never,

(01:14:00):
I remember saying like Jennifer Mullan.
I'm like, yeah, that's me.
Like, and I'm like, oh,you're married to someone.
No, no, nope.
My dad's white.
Right?
And, and, and.
And realizing that at the same time,there is this place and space where,

(01:14:25):
some of your pain, if I'm talking tothe white therapist starting out, right?
Some of your pain needs to beshared with other white folks.
Or other folks in a certain community,right, that we don't, yes, you're
going through your own growing painsor maybe isolation or feeling like
shit, my, my ancestor did what?!
I have this money because of what?!
Or I have this house because of these,the harm and the violence and the

(01:14:51):
sickness of this residential school.
Right.
And so, I could keep going.
I'm going to stop.
But what I will say is, and you'reneeded because we need y'all to pass
it on and make good energy and goodre education to future generations.
And because you're a person.
So, you know, you're here fora reason, karmically as well.

(01:15:13):
And you've come into a whitebody for a reason as well.
I'll just stop there.
I say y'all need to do the work so thaty'all can teach other white people.
And not expect the people ofcolor to teach white folks.

(01:15:34):
Last question, just for fun.
If you could have coffee ortea or a meal with anyone,
dead or alive, who would it be?
So many good ones!
I would love to sit with Prince, thatgenius, that, that mind, that brain,

(01:15:57):
that I would love to sit with my great,great, great, great, great grandmother.
and because I have aspecial, oh, this is hard.
I'd love to sit with Octavia Butler.
and I would love this maybe doesn't count,but I would love to sit with the essence.

(01:16:19):
of White Tara.
Ooh.
Yeah.
And like that.
Be held energetically.
Cause I feel like.
Sometimes I can't speak for you.
I'll just speak for myself.
Sometimes someone like me, um, it'shard to feel really held in spaces,

(01:16:40):
you know, when we're used to, and ifwe have a connection to spirituality
and mental health and we've worked onourselves, it doesn't make us better.
But there's multiple ways of feelingand knowing and understanding the world.
And so I don't know, I just feellike that energy would just encompass
me and hold, I hope all of themwould encompass me and hold me.

(01:17:06):
And I imagine I would justget super inspired by some of
Prince's like, genius idea.
And I feel like we're missingsome music and art at this time.
Like I want a little bit more fromour musicians about what's going
on in the world or like, give usa rally or I don't, I don't know.

(01:17:27):
Not that it has to talk directly aboutwhat's happening, but just like, I'm,
I'm looking for some music that breaksme open and makes me, I don't know, some
Marvin Gaye, some, some, I don't know,you know, some, some new music that, is
speaking to the times and pushing back andbringing a soothing balm at the same time.

(01:17:49):
How about you?
Who do you want to sit with?
I would want to sit with Maya Angelou.
I would want to sit with, the Buddhaof compassion, the female form.
Guan Yin, because I want to askher, what do we do with humans?

(01:18:15):
And I would also want to sit with myfather because I didn't get the chance
to ask about ancestry because they, myparents didn't want to talk about it.
So, and that was really obvious when Idid ancestral healing work many years ago.
So I would want to sit with my father.

(01:18:38):
Beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
Thank you for asking andthank you for coming on.
I appreciate you and please knowthat your work is so impactful.
Thank you.
That really means a lot.
Yeah.
Some days it just hits emotionallyand some days I'm like, Oh, you know,

(01:18:59):
um, the hope is that it's like slowand steady, like a good relationship.
And that, that I don't need anyoneto read anything all the way through.
I don't think anyone, I think weneed to chew on things and read if it
pulls you to read all the way through.
Great.
But I just want to tell peoplealso, if you're like going in
1 or 2 pages and you're like, Ineed a break, do that, honor that.

(01:19:19):
Right?
If you're feeling compelled to just openit up somewhere and see where you're led.
Do that, you know, but if you're a whiteclinician, therapist, psychologist,
social worker, get in there and readit and don't avoid and do the work.
Yeah.
Like I wouldn't say that if you knowthat you have, or if you're, you're a

(01:19:42):
racialized person with a whole lot ofmoney, get in there and do that work,
, because it's an invitation to look at.
How colonial capitalism, right.
And the co has become a colonialwound, a soul wound on us.
So very deeply and how we're usingEurocentric standards and ways of
healing to heal something that has beencaused by that very energy, you know?

(01:20:09):
And so we need to step up and say,Hey, our medicines are medicines too.
And we need to reclaim back someof these medicines that people
have been getting rich off of.
By co opting our shit.
Because some of us arejust relearning them.
Right?
We have been colonized, conditioned,and socialized to step away from.

(01:20:31):
Not all of us, but many of usare some of our natural ways.
I used to be embarrassed.
I didn't want to go to ceremony.
I didn't want to, you know, like,what are you doing with that chicken?
Like, I would be embarrassed.
I would be embarrassed.
And even now I can't always say certainthings in front of people because You
know, it's not always safe, whateverthat means, but I'm realizing that I
get to reclaim slowly and methodicallyand it doesn't mean that I'm co opting it

(01:20:55):
means that was part of what colonizationtook away from me too and embedded in
me, impregnated in me, this belief.
That that's, that's weird.
That's too tribal.
That's this, or why do you have analtar and why do you have fruit there
and like, why is there a coconut?

(01:21:16):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, it's the last thing I'llsay and I'll let you go . I live
in an apartment building where thestrata doesn't allow incense burning.
Talk about.
Wow.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Absolutely.
That's okay, I burned itat 4am when nobody's awake.

(01:21:38):
I opened the patio window and it's justlike I'm like, I have an incense on, yeah.
I was just like, I look around,look upstairs, downstairs, okay,
neighbours windows are all closed,I'm gonna honour my ancestors at 4am.
It's, yeah, it's in everything, and Ilove that you say reclaiming, because
that is 100 percent what we need to do.

(01:22:03):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for being our Chinese auntie.
Thank you for how youshow up in the world.
, thank you to yourancestors and your father.
, and I trust and hope.
That you and I won't have to just doour honoring in the middle of the night.

(01:22:24):
Right.
Right.
May, may we get to the place safelyand, and when having and being
housed , we don't wanna risk it.
'cause I get that a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Maybe we get to a place where we're notstill hiding, even if we don't think
we're you, you know, that we, we, wecan proudly honor with fire, air, water,

(01:22:45):
whatever we need in the ways that we need.
So thank you for inviting me.
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
I hope you enjoy the episode.
I had so much fun.
Talking to Dr.
Jennifer Mullan.
This week's advise from me Yiyi, yourChinese auntie, is read the book,

(01:23:11):
read Decolonizing Therapy by Dr.
Jennifer Mullan.
And if you have friends who are helpers,Bodyworkers therapists, counselors.
Tell them about the book,buy them the book for.
their birthday or Christmas.

(01:23:34):
When we have more peoplerecognize that how.
the mental health system is setup in north America, Canada.
Then we can start to heal fromthe lens of community, from
the lens of recognizing how.
white supremacy.

(01:23:55):
Colonization has harmed people.
Folks who identify as BlackIndigenous People of Colour
be good to yourself.
Take care of yourself and your community.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations

(01:24:15):
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapetersen.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.

(01:24:41):
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.