April 4, 2025 • 34 mins
Receiving news that your pet’s condition is terminal can be one of the most emotional and overwhelming experiences of your life as a caregiver.
In this deeply compassionate conversation, Gail Pope and Karen Wylie explore the emotional roller coaster caregivers face—fear, anxiety, anticipatory grief—and share meaningful ways to manage these emotions.
You’ll hear practical advice about making important decisions, responding to urgent veterinary recommendations, and using holistic approaches like Gail’s philosophy of “healing for the highest good” to provide comfort and peace for your pet and yourself.
Tune in for heartfelt guidance to help you navigate this difficult path with compassion, acceptance, and courage.
📌Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review 🐶⭐🐱
Learn More from BrightHaven Caregiver Academy For free resources, upcoming workshops, and a supportive community dedicated to navigating life with your aging or ill pet:
- Visit our website: brightpathforpets.com
- Join us on Youtube: www.youtube.com/@brighthaven_animals
Connect with Us on Social:
- Facebook: www.facebook.com/brightpathforpets
- Instagram: @brightpathforpets
Disclaimer: This content is for educational purposes and not a substitute for professional advice.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie.
And together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:48):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:51):
Hello and welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here today, as always with Gail Pope.
And today we're going to complete our discussion about the three types of life-changing events and life-changing diagnoses that caregivers experience.
And this one is the terminal diagnosis that you may receive from your vet about your pet.
(01:16):
And so Gail, in thinking about that, what's different about a terminal diagnosis when we compare it to what we've talked about previously in terms of a chronic diagnosis or a difficult to manage diagnosis where we're focused on a lot of keeping records and so forth?
It's different emotionally too, right?
Gail Pope (01:36):
Yes, that really is the biggest difference because the word terminal is very scary for most people.
Let's face it, terminal means death.
A terminal diagnosis can mean anything from, who knows, a very short time to a long time.
We never know.
So the fear that comes up with a terminal diagnosis— until you come down to Earth and start to think— it's all about the caregiver rather than the animal for a little while because you have to get control of yourself and how you understand and then start to ask questions about the chronic illness that has probably been gradually getting worse.
(02:18):
Sometimes, not necessarily, but knowing how to handle daily life and what are my next steps?
What do I do going forward?
It's like you're on the edge of a big ravine, and where do I go?
Don't you think?
Karen Wylie (02:31):
Yes, I do.
And you're saying with a terminal diagnosis, time suddenly is collapsing on you and in front of you.
And that's not how most of us feel
right after we get a chronic diagnosis.
Or even a difficult to manage one like diabetes or kidney disease or any of the others that require routines that we stick to and monitoring and observing and all that kind of stuff.
(03:02):
The terminal diagnosis— the time available to you just starts coming in on you, and I think it puts you right back to your first day hearing any other diagnosis.
But then your focus is often on I can fix this.
"What do I do? How can I make my baby stay with me as long as possible?" And of course, that still is a major concern with a terminal diagnosis.
(03:26):
Because no one has a crystal ball to know exactly how much time your pet will have.
And yet with the terminal diagnosis, they're often letting you know what it's very likely your pet will die from.
Whether it's weeks or months from now, or a little longer, but you do start to have an end point in time.
(03:48):
Whereas with the other— chronic or difficult to manage, you certainly don't have that same sense of urgency.
You don't panic.
I think for all of us, when we get a terminal diagnosis, it's such a surprise.
Especially as you were saying earlier, a terminal diagnosis can come from a condition that was managed for many months or years.
(04:13):
You're going along, everything seems fine and everything's stable, and then suddenly you're getting the feedback that the blood work has changed or maybe you've seen the changes at home and that's why you brought your pet in.
It certainly does.
That sense of a clear end point changes everything.
Gail Pope (04:30):
Yes, without doubt.
I think again, as you said, there are different steps to take before you get to the terminal diagnosis.
I think if you've had a life changing earlier diagnosis, you've made an awful lot of changes to medicine, to daily care, to mobility.
You've made a lot of changes and you've become more experienced as a caregiver at that point.
(04:54):
So when the terminal diagnosis comes, if you've been through all those steps.
I think very often it's something that you've had in the back of your mind, but you've never really had to face it because you know we are doing really well.
But as you say, perhaps they've had diagnostics and now it's obviously reaching a point where we do have to think about the end being in mind.
(05:18):
I think for me my bottom line personally, because I've experienced it so many times, is that becomes a time, when once I took myself off the ledge I haven't come to terms with the word terminal but it's okay.
It's not today.
It's not now.
Let's just gather myself together.
(05:38):
I come back to what's become very well known as a BrightHaven standard and that is that from here on forward, I'm going to be offering healing for his or her highest good regardless of the outcome.
Just creating a loving balance for each and every day.
Because my mind wants to keep saying, "Oh, don't forget" as well as my loved one's balance.
(06:03):
And so again, if we can bring ourselves to a certain stage, I think instead of riding a roller coaster, we can create a balance.
It's not easy if you've never done it before.
Your mind wants to rule the whole situation and nothing becomes easy.
Karen Wylie (06:23):
That's a wonderful point because when we're caring for them over a long period of time with a condition that is manageable, we tend to
let our guard down.
We're not thinking of what it can be like or will be like when the conditions change.
Now you just mentioned about healing for the highest good and anyone who's followed BrightHaven for a long period of time would've come across what you mean by that.
(06:50):
But we might have listeners or viewers that aren't familiar yet with what you mean when you say that.
So can you say a little bit more about what you mean by healing for the highest good?
Gail Pope (07:03):
I guess it's become such a commonplace.
Sentence for me that I haven't really stopped to think about it.
It's become a way of life.
I think it's obviously a holistic approach— healing for the highest good of the whole body.
My vet may have prescribed certain medications which we are giving.
We've reached a balance for all the various things that we may be addressing, and my mindset is the most important part that I'm doing all I can to offer healing for every single part of my loved one for their highest good.
(07:39):
As far as basically the highest good that I can make for them in the knowledge that it's going to give them a good day every day for as long as possible until the end of their life.
It's offering healing for their highest good and me at a deeper level understanding that could be
(08:02):
for continued life and it can also be for stepping out of that life.
Again, it's letting go of being in control of what's going to happen and when it's going to happen.
But it allows you to sit back a little bit, know you're doing your best, know you're doing it with love, and it is for the highest good.
Karen Wylie (08:24):
That's beautiful.
Gail Pope (08:24):
Does that make sense?
Karen Wylie (08:25):
Yes, it absolutely does.
And that's the kind of thing I was hoping that you were going to describe because we are always so focused on what to do for the physical body.
Gail Pope (08:35):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (08:36):
And as you're saying, the truly holistic approach includes— mind, body, spirit.
The spirit in the physical body or the spirit moving beyond.
We as caregivers don't know what any day is going to bring and that's partly another difference with the terminal diagnoses because we don't know what hour or day at the end will be.
(09:01):
There's some anxiety about that too.
We don't want it to come very soon.
We'd like to come as far away in the future as possible.
But that does make it difficult to find that balance that you're describing about what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Gail Pope (09:20):
I think too, a part of that balance is something that I think most people don't think about.
It's become very current in BrightHaven work because when we realized it we were able to start absorbing it and understanding it and that's grief.
(09:40):
Because grief begins, I believe the minute that you are told it's a terminal diagnosis— the word death pops up and so instantly so does the sadness.
The grief and anticipatory grief is something that can spoil life.
For you both, for the whole family, because if you're grieving before death and you're grieving in the human way of heartbreak and sorrow, it's putting a divide between you and your animal.
(10:14):
So as you start to absorb the fact that your heart is breaking at some level, but you need to share and care.
And so rather than hiding yourself away from your animal, talk about it together.
Let's face it, we know that cat speaks cat and dog and vice versa dog speaks cat and dog as well, but as humans, for the most part, we don't speak cat and dog but they speak human.
(10:43):
And so just spending time with your animal, not hiding those feelings but discussing, here's what's going on.
We're going to enjoy life for the rest of the life.
Rather than focusing on the end of it, let's come back and be in the moment each day together.
I remember in the old days, the times that I was so worried about the animal, that I really cut them out of my life a certain amount emotionally, I didn't mean physically.
(11:11):
I still loved them and I was there for them, but I kept my thoughts to myself.
I didn't share everything.
And so it does create a barrier once you accept and you move forward and you deal with each day as it comes.
Karen Wylie (11:25):
It's that balance again.
Gail Pope (11:27):
It is.
Karen Wylie (11:27):
Because whether you're anticipating their loss and grieving them before that loss, and along the way that's one way.
Another, that some people choose is to refuse to consider that's going to actually happen.
(11:48):
Then by an unwillingness to consider some of the choices you may be asked to make along the way.
Every decision that you're asked to make as you and your pet proceed down whatever path this is going to be— for you, for your pet.
(12:09):
You're completely unprepared because you've blocked yourself from thinking about how you want to handle things, how you want to handle where in the house would they be most comfortable?
If they are indeed going to die, what's their most comfortable place in the house?
Where do they need to be?
And some people don't even want to think about that because that's making it happen, if you think about it.
(12:32):
And yet allowing yourself to consider ahead of time, more of these issues.
You're still grieving.
You're not making anything happen that isn't going to happen in its own time anyway.
But you might provide some peace of mind for yourself by thinking a little bit ahead about what might be needed and what the decisions you might need to make for your pet and for yourself.
Gail Pope (13:03):
True and then there's also the other part of this balance is that a terminal diagnosis isn't always terminal.
It doesn't always happen, we've had so many turnarounds and animals living years longer.
Because the terminal diagnosis— it still is but it doesn't have a date on it.
It could be, I doubt he's going to have more than a few months, but a few months could turn into a few years.
(13:28):
It doesn't happen all the time, but it certainly does happen.
And so again,
holding onto hope in a desperate kind of fashion isn't where you want to go but just allowing.
It doesn't matter whether it's a day, a month, or a year— it's today.
(13:50):
So let's enjoy it.
Let's have some fun.
Let's do all the practical stuff that we need to.
Let's think about the future and let's think about maybe when our physical selves are separated and life goes on at a different level, maybe.
But you know when you start to just accept.
Yes, I guess that's the next thing— it is acceptance.
(14:12):
I think a terminal diagnosis is somewhere that we tend to fight at the beginning.
We change.
We may change vets, we may change medicines, we may change all sorts of protocols in order to fight this, whatever it is, and that may make some more changes along.
So living in the moment again, it's a scary but exciting and important place to try to be as much as possible.
Karen Wylie (14:39):
Agreed.
It does mean giving up control which can be really hard for each of us.
Especially as we've talked about when by following certain routines and providing the right medication at the right times, and so forth, you have been able to control the progression of illness until that point when you cannot.
(15:02):
And so living in the moment and enjoying being in that moment with your pet, for every day or week that you can have them, is a very different mindset.
Gail Pope (15:16):
Yes, it is.
Here we are moving into the hospice period, if you like, and thinking about
the different kinds of medicines.
I guess when you have a terminal diagnosis and you're working conventionally.
You are working perhaps with different medicines and gradually they get phased out towards the end of life or changed and different dosing and stuff like that.
(15:45):
But when you're working from a holistic standpoint or from a homeopathic standpoint, which I would be doing.
When we are just changing the route every now and again a little bit, we are not stopping, we may stop that remedy and start something else.
We may do a little more acupuncture or we may add some communication into the picture.
(16:07):
There are all sorts of different routes that one can be taking.
That actually can be very gentle and healing with the body all at the same time while we are actually staying with a decreasing amount of conventional medicine.
Sometimes there is, there's none of this or none of that.
But again, it comes back to finding the balance for each day to make it be the best it can be.
(16:33):
Adding something like cannabis can be very helpful on a daily basis, particularly if pain can be part of the chronic illness.
And that can be very healing.
Very healing.
Again, healing for the highest good.
Karen Wylie (16:48):
Healing for the highest good.
Part of that shift in focus to the now is more on providing comfort care than anything else, which of course brings up the pain issues that you're just mentioning.
But you aren't necessarily, certainly not trying to cure and but perhaps you are trying to prolong their life in the ways that you have been taught conventionally or in alternative methods.
Gail Pope (17:18):
I don't know if it's about prolonging the life.
Karen Wylie (17:22):
Okay.
Say a little bit more.
Gail Pope (17:24):
I don't know.
I think in our current world we can very often, particularly in the human world, work so hard to prolong that life that it doesn't feel right sometimes.
Karen Wylie (17:37):
Absolutely.
Gail Pope (17:38):
We can do that with our animals as well.
And that takes us to obviously another conversation, which is deciding between allowing things to unfold naturally or choosing euthanasia.
Yes I think that's, the prolonging is interesting and I think we all approach that differently.
(18:00):
What do you think?
Karen Wylie (18:02):
Yes.
I think so.
I can see my animal declining in health.
Their condition is no longer as good.
By then, you're often giving them some subQ fluids to sustain them.
But for me, I see those things as supporting life for as long as possible.
Which does prolong, but I'm not going to great lengths at that point.
(18:27):
I don't see subQ fluids as a hail Mary pass.
But rather, what do they need today?
Oh, they're a little dehydrated today.
I'll make sure tonight, I'd be mulling over in my head, how many mls of fluids I should be giving, that kind of thing.
But I think your point is well taken in that, what each of us means by prolonging.
Gail Pope (18:47):
Yes.
I think there's a great difference there between supporting and prolonging in supporting.
Again, definitely you are creating comfort which is the goal.
Prolonging isn't the goal so that they can stand apart, I think.
I do think for some people, prolonging actually can be the goal.
And it can be a very tricky path to take the right steps.
(19:11):
But if you're taking the right steps for you and your animal, then that's okay.
It can be tricky.
Karen Wylie (19:21):
For everyone involved— the caregiver, your family, the pet.
Sometimes the pet lets you know what they want.
I think just about all the time they are letting us know what they want.
We just have to be watching and listening very carefully.
Gail Pope (19:37):
Yes and some family members may not see the same as other family members.
Karen Wylie (19:43):
Which is another difficulty.
Gail Pope (19:45):
Yes it is.
Because it brings up the topics of pain and suffering and things like that.
Because what one person sees may not be what another sees, and that can be an issue.
Again, that's another conversation.
Karen Wylie (19:57):
It's another conversation because it's how do you define— suffering.
And is it to prevent it from ever happening or when you see it, you address it?
A pretty wide spectrum of care there and decision making I think so.
We'll hold that for another conversation 'cause I'm sure we would go, we would explore that one.
(20:21):
I think another difference with the terminal diagnosis is the urgency of your decisions.
The speed with which you may have to make some decisions along the way as your pet declines.
Gail Pope (20:34):
There's also occasionally the instance when you're given a terminal diagnosis at the vet and a recommendation for euthanasia at the same time.
You've had blood work, you may have other diagnostic testing done, and the result is...
Karen Wylie (20:53):
The result is there's nothing we can think of to do within our framework of conventional veterinary medicine, and therefore, here's our recommendation.
What do you recommend that a pet parent do in that kind of situation?
Gail Pope (21:14):
Obviously fear and panic are very much welling up within one.
Yes it's happened to me and I've also had a client on a couple of occasions call me from a vet hospital where they're in that situation.
So I know what it feels like.
I think the clearest thing you can do is to find out, again, depending on the situation, if the animal is stable enough to take home, to give you time to think, that's number one thing is can I take him home and is there anything special that I would need to do that I'm not able to do, or that I can take meds home?
(21:56):
Is he going to need pain meds if I take him home?
But I would like to take him home and discuss this with the family and make a decision.
It may be more urgent than that— the situation is bad at the vet that you make the decision and it isn't a difficult one to do.
However, for the most part, if when you took the animal to the vet they weren't in what you deemed an end of life situation, then hopefully the vet would say, "Absolutely, I can give you this, or this. And, think about it and make your decision and then let us know."
Karen Wylie (22:31):
In experiences that I've had, there really was never a situation where pain medications couldn't be given at such a level that I couldn't take my pet home for the weekend or for however long.
Care has come a long way in terms of what can be provided.
(22:54):
So, I think a pet parent may just need to be assertive, very assertive in requesting the pain medication needed for the weekend.
Let's say there may be a three day timeframe.
I can't think of a situation that I've been in when I've asked for that, that they haven't been able to give me something.
Gail Pope (23:17):
I think it's more of a time for knowledge.
If your vet is
willing and able to take the time to actually really explain what you will need to do if you take them home, if there is a complication or something you need to learn or do.
(23:41):
I guess the bottom line is once you get a terminal diagnosis, the most important thing is to learn what you can about the diagnosis.
To be really familiar with it, what it means, what it entails, and if it's something that you can handle at home.
And if I do have to choose euthanasia, maybe it will be tomorrow.
(24:04):
Maybe it doesn't need to be.
Maybe I can just keep reevaluating and maybe we can find a balance again.
I think knowledge and understanding of that diagnosis, what it actually means, what's going on, and how can I be a part of helping.
Karen Wylie (24:22):
And that is often what veterinarians refer to as the disease trajectory.
Which is looking at the different ways a disease is going to play out and the kinds of complications that are likely to happen and what could be done in each situation and or what cannot.
So I think that's part of educating yourself about what that trajectory can be like.
(24:47):
You don't know exactly what it's going to be like with your pet.
Gail Pope (24:50):
I think there's a dangerous spot in the middle there though.
Because vets, doctors those that have the knowledge do tend to give you a trajectory based on generalization.
And so I think you also have to remember that may not happen.
Karen Wylie (25:10):
The crystal ball idea again, that nobody has it.
Gail Pope (25:13):
Nobody actually can know exactly how long you've got.
Karen Wylie (25:17):
In some ways it's these kind of situations where I really wish for the old days when clinics had less equipment and less testing and fewer specialists to refer you to.
(25:39):
Because I remember a time, a very specific situation, which hopefully I can describe in a succinct way.
But I had an eight month old cat who threw a saddle thrombus, which paralyzed her hindquarters— her back legs.
I'd never had that situation occur and it was on a Saturday morning when I woke up there she was.
(26:03):
Rushed her to our local vet here in the mountains and he said what I think this is, he's very country vet, no on the spot blood work.
We're
talking 35 years ago,
long time ago.
But he said, what I think is going on is that it's probably her heart when this happens with younger animals.
(26:23):
It's very often heart related.
He said, if that's what it is, it's not good.
But we don't know that today and so if you want to give her a chance, I'm willing to work with you on that.
We're coming up at noon on Saturday when the clinic's going to close, and he said, I'll put a catheter in her front leg here, and I will draw up various doses that you'll take home with you.
(26:52):
We'll write it down when you're supposed to give each drug at which time, and if she's still with us on Monday morning, bring her in.
I didn't have her for a long period of time after that, but by Monday she was walking and, in a 48 hour span, things changed.
I was fortunate enough to have a vet like him who was willing to provide pain meds, steroids to reduce tissue damage and also at the time, heparin to try to bust that clot that was blocking her circulation and therefore her ability to walk and feel.
(27:27):
But now we have so many options that it's like, how much— how deep is your pocket in terms of how many tests could be run?
Gail Pope (27:35):
There's the other part to it, isn't there?
The financial part, but overall we have medicalized the last chapter of life so much, haven't we?
And I don't know.
It's good in many respects and a little over the top in many more.
Karen Wylie (27:54):
Yes.
That was what brought to mind that situation was exactly what you're describing because 35 years ago, we didn't have all the ability to know exactly what's happening inside their body at that time, doing lab work on site.
Back then it was, you send it away four or five days later you find out.
(28:14):
And so there was a— I don't know, I guess there was a sense of let's give life a chance.
It was a philosophy that I learned from vets like that one and others in my life.
I was fortunate, very fortunate to have that.
'cause it affected how I approached
my pet's lives, whether on the planet or beyond, as you're saying, healing for the highest good.
(28:40):
That wasn't a phrase I was hearing until I met you.
But it was a philosophy and a feeling I had and tried to live by was to do what was best but recognizing I couldn't do everything and none of us can.
Gail Pope (28:57):
Exactly.
Partly because for different reasons we can't do everything.
Partly because we don't know what everything actually is.
Karen Wylie (29:05):
We might want to know, but we don't.
Gail Pope (29:07):
Partly 'cause we can't afford it.
It's a difficult path to tread and I think we all tread it very differently and I had the same experience as you with a cat years ago, and we euthanized him right away.
That actually was because of both of our lack of knowledge, because it just was, my vet didn't think that there was anything that could be done and that he was in great pain.
(29:33):
So I made that decision and in that moment, at that time, it was the right decision.
Karen Wylie (29:41):
You did the best in hindsight.
Gail Pope (29:43):
If that happened now I would approach it differently.
But again, we tend to feel guilt for all sorts of things throughout our lives.
But when we make a decision and we make it
for the best reasons for ourselves at that time, then we shouldn't look back with guilt.
I think we've all made decisions throughout our life where we felt guilty afterwards, all sorts of decisions.
(30:08):
There comes a time where you have to realize, I did it in the best interest of whatever it was at the time, and it's okay.
And maybe I learned something, which is good.
Karen Wylie (30:21):
Which is always good.
Gail Pope (30:22):
Then if you move that conversation back into the animal discussion and you add on a little bit of spirituality into the mix, and you start to think that maybe there are deeper meanings.
Maybe we and our animals come into each other's lives for a reason, to be there to help, to teach a lesson, things like that.
(30:45):
You start looking at the deeper meanings and then you do feel a little more comfortable.
Karen Wylie (30:52):
Yes, because with so many pets your experience with each one is so different.
Your experience of their life and their experience as their life— their physical life comes to a close is different.
Different lessons to be learned all the way through.
Gail Pope (31:06):
Definitely.
We just have to be open to them, and I think sometimes after an animal has left, even for some time, it's not until then that sometimes I realize, oh my goodness, that's what I learned.
I feel like that was why they came to me for a reason.
There's a poem, a beautiful poem— "A Reason, A Season, or a Lifetime".
(31:29):
And I believe you can bring all the people and the animals into your mind that you all knew and they fit into one of those categories.
It's really lovely.
Karen Wylie (31:39):
That's beautiful.
Gail Pope (31:40):
And again, in the conversation we're having— it fits now.
As I look back, you know it, animals do come to us for that and sometimes we don't have to make such difficult decisions when we actually start to look at them spiritually.
Karen Wylie (31:56):
Yes and take maybe a step back away from us taking care of them and realizing that they're here to take care of us too.
Gail Pope (32:07):
Yep, the circle of life.
Karen Wylie (32:09):
The circle of life.
Gail Pope (32:10):
And helping, we help people to help their animals, to help their people, and so it goes round in another circle.
Karen Wylie (32:17):
It sure does.
That sounds like a good point.
Good time for us to bring this conversation to a close.
Is there any particular wisdom you'd like to close with in terms of what caregivers can do for themselves or for their pets as they approach caring for them with a terminal diagnosis?
Gail Pope (32:46):
That's almost like asking me the same question that we began with.
Do you want to talk for another hour?
Karen Wylie (32:52):
I know.
But anyway, I'm going to ask it.
Gail Pope (32:55):
Oh my gosh.
Just choosing one thing.
I think it's be informed.
Get as much knowledge as you can.
Take a deep breath and take some baby steps forward— to try and achieve the best balance for you both.
That really is a nutshell for me.
Karen Wylie (33:12):
And I guess I would add to give yourself permission to feel all the emotions.
Whatever they are.
And to share them with your pet because they can help you through more than anybody.
Alright and with that, I thank you Gail, as always for an interesting conversation.
Gail Pope (33:30):
Thank you.
Karen Wylie (33:32):
And we thank you for being with us.
We look forward to seeing you the next time.
Take care
Gail Pope (33:39):
Take care, bye-bye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathforPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(34:16):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie.
And together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:48):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:51):
Hello and welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here today, as always with Gail Pope.
And today we're going to complete our discussion about the three types of life-changing events and life-changing diagnoses that caregivers experience.
And this one is the terminal diagnosis that you may receive from your vet about your pet.
(01:16):
And so Gail, in thinking about that, what's different about a terminal diagnosis when we compare it to what we've talked about previously in terms of a chronic diagnosis or a difficult to manage diagnosis where we're focused on a lot of keeping records and so forth?
It's different emotionally too, right?
Gail Pope (01:36):
Yes, that really is the biggest difference because the word terminal is very scary for most people.
Let's face it, terminal means death.
A terminal diagnosis can mean anything from, who knows, a very short time to a long time.
We never know.
So the fear that comes up with a terminal diagnosis— until you come down to Earth and start to think— it's all about the caregiver rather than the animal for a little while because you have to get control of yourself and how you understand and then start to ask questions about the chronic illness that has probably been gradually getting worse.
(02:18):
Sometimes, not necessarily, but knowing how to handle daily life and what are my next steps?
What do I do going forward?
It's like you're on the edge of a big ravine, and where do I go?
Don't you think?
Karen Wylie (02:31):
Yes, I do.
And you're saying with a terminal diagnosis, time suddenly is collapsing on you and in front of you.
And that's not how most of us feel
right after we get a chronic diagnosis.
Or even a difficult to manage one like diabetes or kidney disease or any of the others that require routines that we stick to and monitoring and observing and all that kind of stuff.
(03:02):
The terminal diagnosis— the time available to you just starts coming in on you, and I think it puts you right back to your first day hearing any other diagnosis.
But then your focus is often on I can fix this.
"What do I do? How can I make my baby stay with me as long as possible?" And of course, that still is a major concern with a terminal diagnosis.
(03:26):
Because no one has a crystal ball to know exactly how much time your pet will have.
And yet with the terminal diagnosis, they're often letting you know what it's very likely your pet will die from.
Whether it's weeks or months from now, or a little longer, but you do start to have an end point in time.
(03:48):
Whereas with the other— chronic or difficult to manage, you certainly don't have that same sense of urgency.
You don't panic.
I think for all of us, when we get a terminal diagnosis, it's such a surprise.
Especially as you were saying earlier, a terminal diagnosis can come from a condition that was managed for many months or years.
(04:13):
You're going along, everything seems fine and everything's stable, and then suddenly you're getting the feedback that the blood work has changed or maybe you've seen the changes at home and that's why you brought your pet in.
It certainly does.
That sense of a clear end point changes everything.
Gail Pope (04:30):
Yes, without doubt.
I think again, as you said, there are different steps to take before you get to the terminal diagnosis.
I think if you've had a life changing earlier diagnosis, you've made an awful lot of changes to medicine, to daily care, to mobility.
You've made a lot of changes and you've become more experienced as a caregiver at that point.
(04:54):
So when the terminal diagnosis comes, if you've been through all those steps.
I think very often it's something that you've had in the back of your mind, but you've never really had to face it because you know we are doing really well.
But as you say, perhaps they've had diagnostics and now it's obviously reaching a point where we do have to think about the end being in mind.
(05:18):
I think for me my bottom line personally, because I've experienced it so many times, is that becomes a time, when once I took myself off the ledge I haven't come to terms with the word terminal but it's okay.
It's not today.
It's not now.
Let's just gather myself together.
(05:38):
I come back to what's become very well known as a BrightHaven standard and that is that from here on forward, I'm going to be offering healing for his or her highest good regardless of the outcome.
Just creating a loving balance for each and every day.
Because my mind wants to keep saying, "Oh, don't forget" as well as my loved one's balance.
(06:03):
And so again, if we can bring ourselves to a certain stage, I think instead of riding a roller coaster, we can create a balance.
It's not easy if you've never done it before.
Your mind wants to rule the whole situation and nothing becomes easy.
Karen Wylie (06:23):
That's a wonderful point because when we're caring for them over a long period of time with a condition that is manageable, we tend to
let our guard down.
We're not thinking of what it can be like or will be like when the conditions change.
Now you just mentioned about healing for the highest good and anyone who's followed BrightHaven for a long period of time would've come across what you mean by that.
(06:50):
But we might have listeners or viewers that aren't familiar yet with what you mean when you say that.
So can you say a little bit more about what you mean by healing for the highest good?
Gail Pope (07:03):
I guess it's become such a commonplace.
Sentence for me that I haven't really stopped to think about it.
It's become a way of life.
I think it's obviously a holistic approach— healing for the highest good of the whole body.
My vet may have prescribed certain medications which we are giving.
We've reached a balance for all the various things that we may be addressing, and my mindset is the most important part that I'm doing all I can to offer healing for every single part of my loved one for their highest good.
(07:39):
As far as basically the highest good that I can make for them in the knowledge that it's going to give them a good day every day for as long as possible until the end of their life.
It's offering healing for their highest good and me at a deeper level understanding that could be
(08:02):
for continued life and it can also be for stepping out of that life.
Again, it's letting go of being in control of what's going to happen and when it's going to happen.
But it allows you to sit back a little bit, know you're doing your best, know you're doing it with love, and it is for the highest good.
Karen Wylie (08:24):
That's beautiful.
Gail Pope (08:24):
Does that make sense?
Karen Wylie (08:25):
Yes, it absolutely does.
And that's the kind of thing I was hoping that you were going to describe because we are always so focused on what to do for the physical body.
Gail Pope (08:35):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (08:36):
And as you're saying, the truly holistic approach includes— mind, body, spirit.
The spirit in the physical body or the spirit moving beyond.
We as caregivers don't know what any day is going to bring and that's partly another difference with the terminal diagnoses because we don't know what hour or day at the end will be.
(09:01):
There's some anxiety about that too.
We don't want it to come very soon.
We'd like to come as far away in the future as possible.
But that does make it difficult to find that balance that you're describing about what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Gail Pope (09:20):
I think too, a part of that balance is something that I think most people don't think about.
It's become very current in BrightHaven work because when we realized it we were able to start absorbing it and understanding it and that's grief.
(09:40):
Because grief begins, I believe the minute that you are told it's a terminal diagnosis— the word death pops up and so instantly so does the sadness.
The grief and anticipatory grief is something that can spoil life.
For you both, for the whole family, because if you're grieving before death and you're grieving in the human way of heartbreak and sorrow, it's putting a divide between you and your animal.
(10:14):
So as you start to absorb the fact that your heart is breaking at some level, but you need to share and care.
And so rather than hiding yourself away from your animal, talk about it together.
Let's face it, we know that cat speaks cat and dog and vice versa dog speaks cat and dog as well, but as humans, for the most part, we don't speak cat and dog but they speak human.
(10:43):
And so just spending time with your animal, not hiding those feelings but discussing, here's what's going on.
We're going to enjoy life for the rest of the life.
Rather than focusing on the end of it, let's come back and be in the moment each day together.
I remember in the old days, the times that I was so worried about the animal, that I really cut them out of my life a certain amount emotionally, I didn't mean physically.
(11:11):
I still loved them and I was there for them, but I kept my thoughts to myself.
I didn't share everything.
And so it does create a barrier once you accept and you move forward and you deal with each day as it comes.
Karen Wylie (11:25):
It's that balance again.
Gail Pope (11:27):
It is.
Karen Wylie (11:27):
Because whether you're anticipating their loss and grieving them before that loss, and along the way that's one way.
Another, that some people choose is to refuse to consider that's going to actually happen.
(11:48):
Then by an unwillingness to consider some of the choices you may be asked to make along the way.
Every decision that you're asked to make as you and your pet proceed down whatever path this is going to be— for you, for your pet.
(12:09):
You're completely unprepared because you've blocked yourself from thinking about how you want to handle things, how you want to handle where in the house would they be most comfortable?
If they are indeed going to die, what's their most comfortable place in the house?
Where do they need to be?
And some people don't even want to think about that because that's making it happen, if you think about it.
(12:32):
And yet allowing yourself to consider ahead of time, more of these issues.
You're still grieving.
You're not making anything happen that isn't going to happen in its own time anyway.
But you might provide some peace of mind for yourself by thinking a little bit ahead about what might be needed and what the decisions you might need to make for your pet and for yourself.
Gail Pope (13:03):
True and then there's also the other part of this balance is that a terminal diagnosis isn't always terminal.
It doesn't always happen, we've had so many turnarounds and animals living years longer.
Because the terminal diagnosis— it still is but it doesn't have a date on it.
It could be, I doubt he's going to have more than a few months, but a few months could turn into a few years.
(13:28):
It doesn't happen all the time, but it certainly does happen.
And so again,
holding onto hope in a desperate kind of fashion isn't where you want to go but just allowing.
It doesn't matter whether it's a day, a month, or a year— it's today.
(13:50):
So let's enjoy it.
Let's have some fun.
Let's do all the practical stuff that we need to.
Let's think about the future and let's think about maybe when our physical selves are separated and life goes on at a different level, maybe.
But you know when you start to just accept.
Yes, I guess that's the next thing— it is acceptance.
(14:12):
I think a terminal diagnosis is somewhere that we tend to fight at the beginning.
We change.
We may change vets, we may change medicines, we may change all sorts of protocols in order to fight this, whatever it is, and that may make some more changes along.
So living in the moment again, it's a scary but exciting and important place to try to be as much as possible.
Karen Wylie (14:39):
Agreed.
It does mean giving up control which can be really hard for each of us.
Especially as we've talked about when by following certain routines and providing the right medication at the right times, and so forth, you have been able to control the progression of illness until that point when you cannot.
(15:02):
And so living in the moment and enjoying being in that moment with your pet, for every day or week that you can have them, is a very different mindset.
Gail Pope (15:16):
Yes, it is.
Here we are moving into the hospice period, if you like, and thinking about
the different kinds of medicines.
I guess when you have a terminal diagnosis and you're working conventionally.
You are working perhaps with different medicines and gradually they get phased out towards the end of life or changed and different dosing and stuff like that.
(15:45):
But when you're working from a holistic standpoint or from a homeopathic standpoint, which I would be doing.
When we are just changing the route every now and again a little bit, we are not stopping, we may stop that remedy and start something else.
We may do a little more acupuncture or we may add some communication into the picture.
(16:07):
There are all sorts of different routes that one can be taking.
That actually can be very gentle and healing with the body all at the same time while we are actually staying with a decreasing amount of conventional medicine.
Sometimes there is, there's none of this or none of that.
But again, it comes back to finding the balance for each day to make it be the best it can be.
(16:33):
Adding something like cannabis can be very helpful on a daily basis, particularly if pain can be part of the chronic illness.
And that can be very healing.
Very healing.
Again, healing for the highest good.
Karen Wylie (16:48):
Healing for the highest good.
Part of that shift in focus to the now is more on providing comfort care than anything else, which of course brings up the pain issues that you're just mentioning.
But you aren't necessarily, certainly not trying to cure and but perhaps you are trying to prolong their life in the ways that you have been taught conventionally or in alternative methods.
Gail Pope (17:18):
I don't know if it's about prolonging the life.
Karen Wylie (17:22):
Okay.
Say a little bit more.
Gail Pope (17:24):
I don't know.
I think in our current world we can very often, particularly in the human world, work so hard to prolong that life that it doesn't feel right sometimes.
Karen Wylie (17:37):
Absolutely.
Gail Pope (17:38):
We can do that with our animals as well.
And that takes us to obviously another conversation, which is deciding between allowing things to unfold naturally or choosing euthanasia.
Yes I think that's, the prolonging is interesting and I think we all approach that differently.
(18:00):
What do you think?
Karen Wylie (18:02):
Yes.
I think so.
I can see my animal declining in health.
Their condition is no longer as good.
By then, you're often giving them some subQ fluids to sustain them.
But for me, I see those things as supporting life for as long as possible.
Which does prolong, but I'm not going to great lengths at that point.
(18:27):
I don't see subQ fluids as a hail Mary pass.
But rather, what do they need today?
Oh, they're a little dehydrated today.
I'll make sure tonight, I'd be mulling over in my head, how many mls of fluids I should be giving, that kind of thing.
But I think your point is well taken in that, what each of us means by prolonging.
Gail Pope (18:47):
Yes.
I think there's a great difference there between supporting and prolonging in supporting.
Again, definitely you are creating comfort which is the goal.
Prolonging isn't the goal so that they can stand apart, I think.
I do think for some people, prolonging actually can be the goal.
And it can be a very tricky path to take the right steps.
(19:11):
But if you're taking the right steps for you and your animal, then that's okay.
It can be tricky.
Karen Wylie (19:21):
For everyone involved— the caregiver, your family, the pet.
Sometimes the pet lets you know what they want.
I think just about all the time they are letting us know what they want.
We just have to be watching and listening very carefully.
Gail Pope (19:37):
Yes and some family members may not see the same as other family members.
Karen Wylie (19:43):
Which is another difficulty.
Gail Pope (19:45):
Yes it is.
Because it brings up the topics of pain and suffering and things like that.
Because what one person sees may not be what another sees, and that can be an issue.
Again, that's another conversation.
Karen Wylie (19:57):
It's another conversation because it's how do you define— suffering.
And is it to prevent it from ever happening or when you see it, you address it?
A pretty wide spectrum of care there and decision making I think so.
We'll hold that for another conversation 'cause I'm sure we would go, we would explore that one.
(20:21):
I think another difference with the terminal diagnosis is the urgency of your decisions.
The speed with which you may have to make some decisions along the way as your pet declines.
Gail Pope (20:34):
There's also occasionally the instance when you're given a terminal diagnosis at the vet and a recommendation for euthanasia at the same time.
You've had blood work, you may have other diagnostic testing done, and the result is...
Karen Wylie (20:53):
The result is there's nothing we can think of to do within our framework of conventional veterinary medicine, and therefore, here's our recommendation.
What do you recommend that a pet parent do in that kind of situation?
Gail Pope (21:14):
Obviously fear and panic are very much welling up within one.
Yes it's happened to me and I've also had a client on a couple of occasions call me from a vet hospital where they're in that situation.
So I know what it feels like.
I think the clearest thing you can do is to find out, again, depending on the situation, if the animal is stable enough to take home, to give you time to think, that's number one thing is can I take him home and is there anything special that I would need to do that I'm not able to do, or that I can take meds home?
(21:56):
Is he going to need pain meds if I take him home?
But I would like to take him home and discuss this with the family and make a decision.
It may be more urgent than that— the situation is bad at the vet that you make the decision and it isn't a difficult one to do.
However, for the most part, if when you took the animal to the vet they weren't in what you deemed an end of life situation, then hopefully the vet would say, "Absolutely, I can give you this, or this. And, think about it and make your decision and then let us know."
Karen Wylie (22:31):
In experiences that I've had, there really was never a situation where pain medications couldn't be given at such a level that I couldn't take my pet home for the weekend or for however long.
Care has come a long way in terms of what can be provided.
(22:54):
So, I think a pet parent may just need to be assertive, very assertive in requesting the pain medication needed for the weekend.
Let's say there may be a three day timeframe.
I can't think of a situation that I've been in when I've asked for that, that they haven't been able to give me something.
Gail Pope (23:17):
I think it's more of a time for knowledge.
If your vet is
willing and able to take the time to actually really explain what you will need to do if you take them home, if there is a complication or something you need to learn or do.
(23:41):
I guess the bottom line is once you get a terminal diagnosis, the most important thing is to learn what you can about the diagnosis.
To be really familiar with it, what it means, what it entails, and if it's something that you can handle at home.
And if I do have to choose euthanasia, maybe it will be tomorrow.
(24:04):
Maybe it doesn't need to be.
Maybe I can just keep reevaluating and maybe we can find a balance again.
I think knowledge and understanding of that diagnosis, what it actually means, what's going on, and how can I be a part of helping.
Karen Wylie (24:22):
And that is often what veterinarians refer to as the disease trajectory.
Which is looking at the different ways a disease is going to play out and the kinds of complications that are likely to happen and what could be done in each situation and or what cannot.
So I think that's part of educating yourself about what that trajectory can be like.
(24:47):
You don't know exactly what it's going to be like with your pet.
Gail Pope (24:50):
I think there's a dangerous spot in the middle there though.
Because vets, doctors those that have the knowledge do tend to give you a trajectory based on generalization.
And so I think you also have to remember that may not happen.
Karen Wylie (25:10):
The crystal ball idea again, that nobody has it.
Gail Pope (25:13):
Nobody actually can know exactly how long you've got.
Karen Wylie (25:17):
In some ways it's these kind of situations where I really wish for the old days when clinics had less equipment and less testing and fewer specialists to refer you to.
(25:39):
Because I remember a time, a very specific situation, which hopefully I can describe in a succinct way.
But I had an eight month old cat who threw a saddle thrombus, which paralyzed her hindquarters— her back legs.
I'd never had that situation occur and it was on a Saturday morning when I woke up there she was.
(26:03):
Rushed her to our local vet here in the mountains and he said what I think this is, he's very country vet, no on the spot blood work.
We're
talking 35 years ago,
long time ago.
But he said, what I think is going on is that it's probably her heart when this happens with younger animals.
(26:23):
It's very often heart related.
He said, if that's what it is, it's not good.
But we don't know that today and so if you want to give her a chance, I'm willing to work with you on that.
We're coming up at noon on Saturday when the clinic's going to close, and he said, I'll put a catheter in her front leg here, and I will draw up various doses that you'll take home with you.
(26:52):
We'll write it down when you're supposed to give each drug at which time, and if she's still with us on Monday morning, bring her in.
I didn't have her for a long period of time after that, but by Monday she was walking and, in a 48 hour span, things changed.
I was fortunate enough to have a vet like him who was willing to provide pain meds, steroids to reduce tissue damage and also at the time, heparin to try to bust that clot that was blocking her circulation and therefore her ability to walk and feel.
(27:27):
But now we have so many options that it's like, how much— how deep is your pocket in terms of how many tests could be run?
Gail Pope (27:35):
There's the other part to it, isn't there?
The financial part, but overall we have medicalized the last chapter of life so much, haven't we?
And I don't know.
It's good in many respects and a little over the top in many more.
Karen Wylie (27:54):
Yes.
That was what brought to mind that situation was exactly what you're describing because 35 years ago, we didn't have all the ability to know exactly what's happening inside their body at that time, doing lab work on site.
Back then it was, you send it away four or five days later you find out.
(28:14):
And so there was a— I don't know, I guess there was a sense of let's give life a chance.
It was a philosophy that I learned from vets like that one and others in my life.
I was fortunate, very fortunate to have that.
'cause it affected how I approached
my pet's lives, whether on the planet or beyond, as you're saying, healing for the highest good.
(28:40):
That wasn't a phrase I was hearing until I met you.
But it was a philosophy and a feeling I had and tried to live by was to do what was best but recognizing I couldn't do everything and none of us can.
Gail Pope (28:57):
Exactly.
Partly because for different reasons we can't do everything.
Partly because we don't know what everything actually is.
Karen Wylie (29:05):
We might want to know, but we don't.
Gail Pope (29:07):
Partly 'cause we can't afford it.
It's a difficult path to tread and I think we all tread it very differently and I had the same experience as you with a cat years ago, and we euthanized him right away.
That actually was because of both of our lack of knowledge, because it just was, my vet didn't think that there was anything that could be done and that he was in great pain.
(29:33):
So I made that decision and in that moment, at that time, it was the right decision.
Karen Wylie (29:41):
You did the best in hindsight.
Gail Pope (29:43):
If that happened now I would approach it differently.
But again, we tend to feel guilt for all sorts of things throughout our lives.
But when we make a decision and we make it
for the best reasons for ourselves at that time, then we shouldn't look back with guilt.
I think we've all made decisions throughout our life where we felt guilty afterwards, all sorts of decisions.
(30:08):
There comes a time where you have to realize, I did it in the best interest of whatever it was at the time, and it's okay.
And maybe I learned something, which is good.
Karen Wylie (30:21):
Which is always good.
Gail Pope (30:22):
Then if you move that conversation back into the animal discussion and you add on a little bit of spirituality into the mix, and you start to think that maybe there are deeper meanings.
Maybe we and our animals come into each other's lives for a reason, to be there to help, to teach a lesson, things like that.
(30:45):
You start looking at the deeper meanings and then you do feel a little more comfortable.
Karen Wylie (30:52):
Yes, because with so many pets your experience with each one is so different.
Your experience of their life and their experience as their life— their physical life comes to a close is different.
Different lessons to be learned all the way through.
Gail Pope (31:06):
Definitely.
We just have to be open to them, and I think sometimes after an animal has left, even for some time, it's not until then that sometimes I realize, oh my goodness, that's what I learned.
I feel like that was why they came to me for a reason.
There's a poem, a beautiful poem— "A Reason, A Season, or a Lifetime".
(31:29):
And I believe you can bring all the people and the animals into your mind that you all knew and they fit into one of those categories.
It's really lovely.
Karen Wylie (31:39):
That's beautiful.
Gail Pope (31:40):
And again, in the conversation we're having— it fits now.
As I look back, you know it, animals do come to us for that and sometimes we don't have to make such difficult decisions when we actually start to look at them spiritually.
Karen Wylie (31:56):
Yes and take maybe a step back away from us taking care of them and realizing that they're here to take care of us too.
Gail Pope (32:07):
Yep, the circle of life.
Karen Wylie (32:09):
The circle of life.
Gail Pope (32:10):
And helping, we help people to help their animals, to help their people, and so it goes round in another circle.
Karen Wylie (32:17):
It sure does.
That sounds like a good point.
Good time for us to bring this conversation to a close.
Is there any particular wisdom you'd like to close with in terms of what caregivers can do for themselves or for their pets as they approach caring for them with a terminal diagnosis?
Gail Pope (32:46):
That's almost like asking me the same question that we began with.
Do you want to talk for another hour?
Karen Wylie (32:52):
I know.
But anyway, I'm going to ask it.
Gail Pope (32:55):
Oh my gosh.
Just choosing one thing.
I think it's be informed.
Get as much knowledge as you can.
Take a deep breath and take some baby steps forward— to try and achieve the best balance for you both.
That really is a nutshell for me.
Karen Wylie (33:12):
And I guess I would add to give yourself permission to feel all the emotions.
Whatever they are.
And to share them with your pet because they can help you through more than anybody.
Alright and with that, I thank you Gail, as always for an interesting conversation.
Gail Pope (33:30):
Thank you.
Karen Wylie (33:32):
And we thank you for being with us.
We look forward to seeing you the next time.
Take care
Gail Pope (33:39):
Take care, bye-bye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathforPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(34:16):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.