From Fentanyl Addict to Recovery Rapper: Benjamin Lerner

Welcome to recovery rap! Follow Benjamin on instagram @benjamin.Lerner

https://www.instagram.com/benjamin.lerner?igsh=MTB3dm1pNnc1b3d1MQ==

What happens when you take addiction, pain, and trauma—and turn them into art that saves lives? In this episode, I sit down with Benjamin Lerner, better known as the “recovery rapper,” to unpack his raw journey from privileged beginnings and opioid addiction to finding purpose and truth through music.We dive deep: childhood struggles, crashing cars, hitting spiritual—and literal—bottom, and the turning point that kept him alive. Benjamin shares the real story behind his social media rise, how authenticity beats algorithm, and the life-saving power of service, creativity, and honesty in recovery.If you’ve ever felt like the drugs stopped working, or your story didn’t matter, this conversation will remind you: You have a voice. Pick up the phone. Hit post. Don’t quit before the miracle.Subscribe for more real recovery conversations and inspiration.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
Podcast, the show where we get real about addiction and mental
health recovery. I'm so glad you're here.
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
alcohol, please reach out to me on any social media platform at
Recovering Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at

(00:22):
[e-mail]. Enjoy the show.

(00:44):
By the way, do you go by Ben? You can save the syllables if
you want. I'm actually Benjamin Lerner
because there's like a poet, like he's a pretty big cheese.
His name's Ben Lerner. Like Pulitzer Prizes and all
that. So I do the Benjamin for my
platform so to not step on his stuff.
But you can call me Ben if you want.
It's all good. It's funny, when I was I was
Googling you and looking up moreof of your songs today, which

(01:06):
are great by the way. I really appreciate recovery
rap. The I know you don't get
offended by that, but like, Nah.I celebrate it.
Yeah, it's not really a thing, right?
Like I haven't really found it other than you and it's what
you're doing is amazing, man. I truly, I love the music it
like I vibe to in my car. It's not just good lyrics, it's
actually I I vibe to it. You know, it's, it's good music,
man, So keep doing. My day love.

(01:28):
Thank you. I love it.
But yeah, Ben, thanks so much for coming down, man.
But yeah, to to touch on my earlier point, when I, when I
googled your name, what I was getting at is that guy came up
that poet and I was like, well, you're basically a poet, so.
You know, it's really cool. Like I've read his stuff.
It's very interesting, it's veryscholarly, it's very powerful.

(01:49):
But me and my producer, we wanted to make it clear that
like, you know, it's, it's a different thing.
So we did the full name and but if you want to call me Ben, I,
my nickname's skinny, you can just call me random real beanie
hat man. Like that's what some people
will say in other comments. They're like, oh, like I follow
you and the long haired guy withthe hat and I'm like, that's me

(02:09):
long hair hat guys. So whatever works.
But you, you know, you, you probably, I'm going to assume
this because I haven't met you before recovery, but you
probably didn't always look thisgood.
You'll probably always didn't look healthy.
You're, you know, no stranger toopiates and and drugs.
And you talk about that openly. That's a huge problem right now

(02:31):
in North America, especially in the United States.
And you're from Vermont. So why don't you talk about a
little bit about your story and how you came into recovery?
Yeah, so the forgive my cheesy millennial reference, but the
SparkNotes version used to be the site where you could like
instead of reading a book beforeChatGPT and grok and all that,

(02:52):
you could like Google the the SparkNotes short book to pass
your test. So the SparkNotes version is I
do live in Vermont now, but if my atrocious Mid-Atlantic accent
isn't enough of a giveaway, I wasn't born this close to the
northern border. I was born and raised in
Washington DC. I'm the son of 2 Ivy League
educated journalists. I'm not a billionaire, you know,

(03:13):
but I have a little bit of a history of privilege in my
family. My great grandfather was a
Russian immigrant born American composer named Irving Berlin.
He wrote God Bless America, White Christmas and I'm not
saying that to flex like any family ancestry just to give
context that addiction doesn't discriminate in terms of like
where you come from. I know people from the projects

(03:35):
and trailer parks who now own $1,000,000 businesses because
they got their life right in recovery.
And I know people who grew up inhouses that dwarfed my nice
suburban house growing up and all it got him is a nicer box
when the fentanyl took him out. But you know, the best way I can
describe it is that I was an alcoholic and addict before I
ever took my first drink becauseI was always fixated on an

(03:56):
external solution to help me navigate or just kind of kick
the metaphoric can down the roadof my internal problems.
And before, you know, the drink ever hit my mouth or the needle
ever hit my van, I found solace and temporary gratification
through approval from other people.
You know, for other shameless millennial references, it was

(04:17):
Pogs, Pokémon cards, Digimon cards, N64 and PlayStation games
just fixated on collecting things, collecting approval and
attaboys from other people. And so by the time like, you
know, I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder at the
time they called it Asperger's early on.
So I had these kind of like hyper fixations, which kind of

(04:38):
primed the pump for the self soothing, self stemming stuff
that, you know, I had little sips of alcohol here and there.
But when I was 13 years old, even though I had a sip of wine,
sip of beer at my parents dinnerparty or sneaking out of the
fridge out of curiosity, I don'tconsider those my first drinks
or first use because I didn't know what it was doing for me.

(04:58):
I consider my first drink when Iknew the effect that alcohol
gave me because it made me feel a little euphoric.
And then I consciously sought that out.
And that was when I was like 1314.
I don't really remember the age,it was like 7th or 8th grade.
But I'll never forget the day because I was over at my
friend's house, like playing video games as a sleepover.
And we got the brilliant idea that we were going to steal

(05:19):
liquor from his parents cabinet.But the bottles were too far
down. And I think they might even been
marked because he had an older sister in high school and his
parents were trying to like makesure she didn't do that.
But we found this musty, disgusting 6 pack of Sam Adams
in the basement and it had like mold and cobwebs on the on the
like tops of the bottles. And we both popped one and he

(05:42):
took one sip and he practically spat it out.
I was like, this is disgusting. But me being an alcoholic, I
down that lukewarm moldy beer. And it was like when you go on
an airplane and your ears pop. It was like just the whole
weight anxiety, like self-centered fear just
immediately evaporated. But it came at a price, and the

(06:03):
price is that over the next 10 years, over my active use, it
escalated very quickly. And it went from suburban things
like me showing up late to a piano recital or a track meet,
to me crashing my car, dropping out of school, escalating from
drinking and cannabis to coke, Molly, and then eventually

(06:26):
crossing every line I thought I wouldn't cross.
You know, I had all these delusions because I went to
private school. I grew up in a certain way that
like, because the surroundings were glamorous, I was slowly
desensitized into escalating my use and honestly trying to
emulate this fake persona I did.Because it wasn't just that.

(06:47):
Like I was numbing and mollifying my internal anxiety
through the chemicals that actually became my identity
because there's an awkward lankyautistic kid.
I was insecure and I didn't think people wanted me to be
part of their community. And part of that was delusional
self hatred, but part of it was also just anxiety and like an

(07:07):
identity crisis about not knowing who I was.
But when I had the beer and the and the bag of weed in my hand,
I didn't wasn't just able to change consciousness.
I was able to be that guy that it was a material extension of
my worth. So it was 2 problems.
First and foremost was me self medicating, but second was that
I didn't know who I was without the props of having like the

(07:29):
bottle and the bag in my hand. The same way people wouldn't
want to hang out with me as a sleepover when I was young.
So I'd bring the game cube gamesor the PlayStation two games and
they wouldn't want to hang out with me.
But I'd have that. So the party favors became that.
And, you know, I stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from my
family and I crashed my car after a six month long vendor

(07:50):
stealing my college fund money and lying to my friends saying I
was this suburban, you know, Uptown trap star when really I
was sneaking into my mom's purseto steal checks.
But it all came to a crashing halt when I slammed my car
hydroplaning into three other cars when I was 20 years old in
2012. But when the cops pulled up in

(08:11):
this whole scene, carnage wrecked cars.
Thank God nobody was hurt. The only thing I cared about was
when they put the cuffs on me and breathalyzed me because I
was hungover and kind of still drunk.
It wasn't. Is anybody else OK?
Like my parents were going to find out I stole like a couple
100 grand from them. It's like I'm not going to be
able to drink and use the day. That's all I cared about.

(08:34):
I was a selfish, just self-destructive person.
And then at that point, the onlyline I thought I wouldn't cross
was like prescriptions because, you know, I, I was like snorting
a ball Coke a day. I was drinking 1/5 of whiskey,
but I was an Uptown Coke dealer.I was a high bottom, low bottom
alcoholic. But once I got prescribed perks

(08:56):
for my dental surgery, you know,that little moment of the pop in
the decompression with the beer in my friend's basement was
magnified 100 times. And alcohol is a very blunt and
crude instrument. It activates a lot of different
neurotransmitter sites. But that opioids, that endorphin
and that dopamine, it just took me, man.

(09:17):
And it wasn't suburban anymore. After that.
I went days without eating, pawning everything that I had,
going down to the Tenderloin outin San Francisco where I had re
enrolled in art school because my family wanted me to succeed.
And all the fantasies I had of being this like suburban
Scarface character turned real quick into something a lot less

(09:38):
glamorous than me. Crossing every line, smoking
roxies off of foil, shooting dope, you know, shooting
fentanyl, smoking crack, pickingcigarettes out the gutter Lance
and abscesses with blunt needles, passing out in movie
theaters. I never got Narcan, but I would
wake up blue in the face, my whole body falling asleep
tingling, security guards shaking me awake, passing out on

(10:01):
my friends couches, them trying to revive me.
And all that said, I still justified all those escalating
consequences by the fact that atthat point, The funny thing is
my parents at this point were sending me in and out of rehab.
You know, staging interventions of a small magnitude.
But the sad thing is they only thought that I was high when I

(10:23):
was in withdrawal because I was agitated, I was sweating, and I
was all like the stereotypes of an addict when I didn't have my
dope. But when I did, I was kind.
I was courteous. I was stealing from them, but to
the face. I was very well adjusted.
And so they would only ever confront me when I was dope
sick. And they would try to get me to
go to treatment. And I'd agree just to placate

(10:45):
him. But I didn't really want to get
sober, you know, having a seizure with my father at the
hospital bed out Frisco and themhaving to load me up with Ativan
to stop a dyskinetic seizure. Me biting my tongue and like
asphyxiating and all that didn'tdo it.
Friends dying didn't do it. Crashing my car didn't do it.
What made me want to get sober is when I got went up to New

(11:05):
York and I copped a bundle of fetty laced dope and I shot 3
bags and I didn't get high. I got physically high, but I
didn't get spiritually or emotionally high.
And that was scary to me becauseall consequences aside, I still
live with the delusion that an external chemical solution could
solve my problem. But that's the point that I went

(11:27):
to treatment and I called the treatment center with the needle
in my arm. I had been to inpatient before,
outpatient countless times, but just to placate other people.
But when it got to the point that I had hit a wall, like when
you're slamming multiple bags ofFetty Lays Dope and like Chief
and grabs a crack, like within an hour, like there's no further
escalation that you can go from that.

(11:49):
So I had to seek out another solution.
And that's the point. I was finally beaten into a
state of reason and I went therefor myself.
And that day was June 13th, 2016.
And by the grace of God or whatever word or understanding
works for y'all, whatever you want to call it, it's all the
same to me. I've been clean sober ever
since. Amazing, man.

(12:10):
That's that's I resonated with alot there.
I I truly, you know, I hadn't thought about this in a while,
but yeah, it's like I got to a point where the drugs stopped
working, right? They stopped providing their
purpose, which was, you said it perfectly, using outside things.
I'm paraphrasing, but using outside things to fix my
insides, whether it's love from you, you know, Attaboys.

(12:32):
That was a big one for me, like noticing me, you know, loving
me, whatever that looked like. And you know, it, It wasn't
until because, yeah, I, I went to treatment.
I've been to three. And every time I went there, it
was for my parents, for my wife,just to get them off my back,
Right. And I knew I had a problem, but
I wasn't going for myself. It wasn't until I really stayed

(12:55):
and did the work and started taking some direction from
people. Or it's like, Anthony, maybe
your way is not not the right way.
Maybe you're maybe you're wrong about how to get sober.
Maybe you're wrong about a lot of things and that open
mindedness and willingness to kind of like, actually, you
know, I need to do this for myself because I'm going to die
and I, I'm not happy, right? The drugs, like there is no more

(13:16):
solution anymore to my problem because the drugs and alcohol
stopped working. Was there a moment in that
treatment center, that final onewhere, where you kind of flipped
to do it for yourself? Like, do you remember what that
moment looked like where you yousaid I'm going to do this thing
for real now? Yeah.
So before I left, I knew that I wanted to do it for myself, but

(13:44):
when I got there, I made a stupid decision, which is
addiction transfer separate fromchemicals.
I fully believe and regardless of if you run out of dope, but
there's like a liquor store, even if liquor ain't your thing
like I knew sometimes like to fend off the shakes or the
seizures like off benzos or dope, even though that was my

(14:05):
thing. I didn't even like drinking at
the end I would go grab 1/5 of whiskey and just start chugging
it even if it made me sick just to do something else.
And so in treatment, there were no substances, but there were
people. And so I selfishly made the move
of attaching myself to another person hooking up with her.
And she was going through a lot of stuff too.
She had was like a really cool person, but like I selfishly

(14:27):
took her being interested in me because we were both broken
people looking for a distractionand I made her my new addiction
and we only hooked up once. But like I attached my whole
identity and recovery on to another person.
And so when she stopped talking to me because someone spread
like a rumor that I had like an STD out of out of whatever, like
rehab drama or whatever, I packed my bags and I wanted to

(14:50):
leave because at that point I had detoxed.
I was chemically sober. I kicked like they did a three
day Suboxone taper. It was excruciating.
I was throwing up, sweating, like knotting out, not even from
being high, just being like my whole neurotransmitters were
depleted. It was, it was agony, but I got
through that. But poetically, when I got
through that is when she stoppedtalking to me and I had a detox

(15:12):
process emotionally and spiritually that even though it
wasn't as physically painful, was like I was really alone and
with myself. I didn't have an external thing
that I could. And so I called my family and I
was like, I can't do this. And it wasn't about the chemical
detox. It was about the spiritual and
emotional detox. And so I was sitting in the

(15:32):
room. I had called a cab.
I had conned my family into saying I'm going to go to
another treatment center. But really what I was planning
to do was the commuter train from Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania to Philadelphia. I was going to.
I said I was going to take a train to Philly from Lancaster
and then back to DC to go to treatment and like me and my

(15:55):
family there. But what I was really going to
do is go to Kensington and Philly and take the 300 they
sent me for a train ticket and like go cop a couple bundles and
check out because a lot of kids there were Kenzo Kensington kids
and they told me about the blocks to go to and everything.
And that was my plan. I, it wasn't necessarily
suicidal, but I was just like, whatever happens, happens.
Like I'm going to Kensington, I'm buying a bunch of bags.

(16:16):
I know my tolerance is low and if I because I knew I couldn't
keep using because eventually itwas going to get to the point it
didn't work and and I thought I couldn't live life sober.
So I'm sitting in this room withthis counselor and she's giving
me this whole half litted like I'm like, I'm going to another
treatment center. This isn't just the right fit
for me, like, but she's just like, yeah, tell me more.

(16:38):
Like I'm the first person who's ever against mental medical
advice left. But then I see a mirror right?
It might not even bend like a mirror.
It might have been like like a metallic surface or something.
But I saw my reflection clear asday.
And at the time I had scabs frompicking off of the itching from
the opioids and like standing upfor multiple days smoking crack.
I had bags under my eyes even though I was 24.

(17:00):
I'm 33 now. Make these look like nothing.
It was it was bad. I look like a 40 year old career
hardened addict. I scruffy beard like shaggy from
scooby-doo. I wasn't looking good, but
funnily enough, when I looked atmyself there, I didn't see me.
Then I saw the same scared, insecure child that used to hide

(17:22):
under the table with my hands over my ears as an autistic 4
year old and the Toys-R-Us because the whole world felt
like it was screaming at me. The kid whose parents got
divorced, The kid who had that beer in the basement.
And then it kind of all flashed and I saw like, it's going to
take more work for me to keep running from this than it is for

(17:43):
me to run towards the truth in the pan.
And I'm. And it was not just literally
running like taking the cab and going to Kensington.
I'm like, no, it's not even the drugs.
It's not even anything like that.
It's like you're afraid of your reflection.
It's not the withdrawal. It's not romantic
disappointment. Like, yeah, all that's powerful,
but you're afraid of yourself. And no matter where you go, even

(18:05):
if you pass away, like you are going to be there, like, it's
still going to be you. So you have to face this.
And so I canceled the cab. And after that, I didn't just,
it wasn't just about like chemical sobriety, like
beautiful things happen in there.
Like the day I decided to stay, the person who had been running
like the cafeteria program, likethey appoint certain people, you

(18:28):
know, in the center who are, whoare patients to like serve food
to people and wake up at 6:00 AMinstead of seven or eight to
like go and like help serve the food, cook the food, plate the
food. And, and, and I started doing
that breakfast, lunch and dinnerwhenever they let me.
I started allowing myself to be of service, not just like in any
recovery group or anything, because yeah, they had groups

(18:49):
and stuff, but it was just like,can I help clean?
Can I help do this? And I found that by getting out
of myself in the beginning, it was a distraction, but it but it
was a sense of purpose bigger than just staying sober, like
finding ways to apply principlesof recovery towards my life.
And so I think that's the momentwhere I'm not going to say I got
everything because there were a lot of experiences I had after

(19:13):
that where whether it was relationships or personal
setbacks, like I wanted to use, I wanted to give it up, where a
series of serendipitous miraclesput me towards people who helped
me through it. When I fell, even though I
didn't go back to using, like I came close.
But that was the first moment where I had an epiphany that it
was up to me to do the work. And more than that, that it was

(19:33):
a privilege to do that because the life I would be afforded by
doing that work was better than what the bag could give me.
Yeah. Oh man, I love that.
And I, I couldn't help but laughthere because I, I, I hadn't
talked to somebody yet that I did the exact same thing.
I, I, I was fed up with the treatment center I was in, you

(19:54):
know, this past January and theyweren't doing things my way,
right? Like they weren't, you know,
their things weren't going according to Anthony's plan.
And I was like, I've been to twotreatment centers that were
better than this one and you know, don't you know, I, you
know, trying to run the whole place, right?
You know the. The actor that they talk about
and, you know, trying to be the.Sorry, the director and the
actor trying to do everything, arrange the lights right, sweep

(20:17):
the floor. I was trying to be that guy.
And don't you know, you're not living according to Anthony's
plan. And, you know, it's not.
It could be better here. And I had the exact same
situation where I sat down with a counsellor and he just looked
at me and he was doing the wholelike, yeah, you're going to go
to another treatment center, a better one.
Yeah. Is that that's what you're going
to do? OK.
He wasn't saying that, but he was clearly, you know,

(20:37):
communicating it with his face. And I actually did end up
leaving that treatment center. And I'll never forget this.
I, I went home, I started looking for another treatment
center and I called my therapy. I don't know why.
And again, This is why I believein God's spirituality, higher
power, whatever you want to callit.
Like you said, something, something came in, a thought

(20:57):
came into my head, much like what happened with you, where I
had this kind of epiphany where I was like my therapist is, is
in sobriety and recovery. And she, I just had this thought
to, to FaceTime her. I don't know why, you know, I
hadn't thought about her in a while.
And I Facetimed her and I told her my plan, my idea, right?
And, and this is, I found this to be so helpful in recovery
today. I always, I always try to tell

(21:20):
people that this is what helps me the most is reaching out and
like sharing your, your ideas with people.
Like here's my plan, here's whatI could do because I didn't do
that when I relapsed after eightyears.
That's what took me out was having this plan to and for me
it was getting into performance enhancing drugs, right, not mind
altering, not, you know, all this like, you know, BS in my
head that I was spinning this justification.

(21:41):
I can get a prescription from a doctor, so it's all good.
I didn't, I wasn't telling people about my plans and that's
what ultimately took me back out, right?
I didn't run things by people. I I just acted on my will and my
and that's what got me in here in the 1st place.
I forgot that I forgot that that's what got me into the
hotel rooms by myself, you know,smoking meth, snoring, whatever

(22:01):
the hell I was doing with peopleI shouldn't have been around.
I wasn't telling people my ideas, my plan.
So this time I called her and she right away, she listened to
me and she just goes, Anthony, like, you know, you have to go
back to that treatment center, right?
You got, and she said it in a not so nice way, But I, you
know, she knows me by now. I need that tough love, right?
You need to get your effing ass back there.

(22:21):
And I, I thought about it. I prayed about it, because
that's what I was taught to do, right?
I, I, I asked for help and I went back.
Then I called the treatment center and I said, hey, you
know, I made a mistake. I'm sorry.
Like I shouldn't have done that.And I apologize for my actions,
right? I kind of lost it on some people
too. I kept it pretty calm.

(22:42):
But can I come back? And they took me back that next
day, right? I went to a recovery group that
night. And funny enough, actually one
of the guys at that meeting thatstood up and and talked, he
ended up coming into the treatment center that night that
I went back there and I saw him and I was like, holy, you know,

(23:02):
I did one of these where I just kind of looked up and I was
like, OK, you know, I get it. Like this is where I'm supposed
to be. Thanks, buddy.
And, you know, those moments happen in my life all the time.
I just have to notice them, right?
I have to, I have to notice these little God shots, God
winks, whatever you want to callthem.
But yeah, it's not easy. It's.
And to your point, it's like life wasn't perfect after that,

(23:23):
but that I always think like if you had taken that train, if you
had acted on that, will you, youmight not be sitting here today,
right? Like who knows, right?
We don't know. And that's the thing when we
pick up, like people are like, Oh, I know what's going to
happen. I'm going to I'm like, I don't
know, dude. Like I've I've never used a
needle. I have used a needle, but I
haven't used a needle to shoot opiates yet, right?

(23:44):
I always say that's like if I close this call today and go, I
always say this, if I close thisand say bye to you and go back
out there and start drinking again, all bets are off dude.
Like I don't know what's going to happen next, right?
Because I'm an addict and an alcoholic and I 1 is too many
and thousands ever enough. I always want more.
I don't know how to stop. I don't have an off button so

(24:05):
it's not even worth testing it today, you know?
Yeah, of course. And you know, the addictive
impulse for me isn't necessarilyjust tied to a chemical.
I think that regardless of whether my relapse is chemical,
of course that's going to have the most devastating
consequences. It's going to reset the clock.
It's going to do all kinds of like internal neurological

(24:25):
damage. And you know, the way that I get
down, I'm probably going to be sitting under a stone.
But but separate from that, I think that regardless of what
phase and recovery you're at, and regardless of what delusions
get you back to that place of turning to whatever destructive
solution it is, I can completelydestroy my life today in ways
that have nothing to do with chemicals.

(24:47):
I mean, I'm a father of two. I, I work a fairly demanding job
in addition to the content and like the other stuff that I do
and you know, I can just walk around salty and just
self-destructive all day. And, and it just like under the
surface, like there's some people who say all, all relapses
are premeditated and I think some are kind of spur of the

(25:07):
moment. But regardless of like the
amount of premeditation that goes into anything, there's
always something bubbling underneath the surface.
And so I still get cravings fromtime to time.
Over the past few years, it's gotten a little better in terms
of the chemical cravings. I don't know what it is.
Might just be that because like,you know, I'm working a lot and
I have kids. Like I don't really have time to
even like think that much about that.

(25:29):
But you know, in terms of in terms of the anger piece, in
terms of the resentment piece, in terms of like the
self-centered fear piece today, it's like, yeah, I might not be
going out there and drinking or using, but like the same
wreckage can happen real quick if I'm not willing to just take
the same action that I did in that treatment center in a

(25:49):
different way. Because the insidious thing
about it is I can think, well, Idon't have a craving to use
today. So that must mean I'm doing
pretty well. That must mean I'm a pretty hot
potato man. And then I'll be like yelling at
my fiance in front of my kids, like storming out of the door
and just like doing all of this stuff.
And because I'm sober, I think, Oh yeah, well, you know, I got

(26:11):
I'm justified in this. But see, the sad thing about
that is that that can open the door for other things.
So for me today, it's like that same motivation always has to
be, like you say, ask for help. And the other day I was talking
to a person who's very near and dear to me in my recovery.
He's also a father of two. He's a little further along than
me. And he said something very

(26:32):
powerful because, you know, my whole house was a mess literally
because I hadn't been there taking care of my kids.
I've been selfish working a longtime not being there.
And I tried to justify it. And I was tired as heck just
picking up all the toys, being salty that I had to do it.
And he's like, you know, it's one thing to trust that things

(26:54):
are going to be OK when it's nota mess.
It's another thing entirely to trust that the solution works
when you're in the process of picking up the wreckage.
And he's like, yeah, good for you.
You're nine years sober, one dayat a time.
But it sounds like your life's still a mess.
And it sounds like maybe you have to have a little bit of the

(27:14):
same, even if it's forced and you have to just kind of blindly
do it and fake it till you make it.
Humility here because it sounds like even though you're not
using, you're you're hitting some jackpots and you're
destroying your life pretty good.
And that and that's a wake up call to me, man, because it's
like, yeah, I got a different life now.

(27:35):
Sure from the outside. And because I was never a
functional addict, I wasn't shout out to the people who can
do that, man. I was never that.
I couldn't hold down a job. You.
Know I'm not trying to glorify that, but I just couldn't do it.
And so all these things happen in my recovery.
And so I I think all these delusional things, but at the

(27:55):
end of the day, whether it's a drink, whether it's a shot of
dope, whether it's, you know, a line, a pill, whatever, that's
one piece. But then the next level is how
can I actually better my life? Not just in terms of the toys
and prizes and external elements, but keep myself
actually grounded and grateful so I can be present.
And so that's the battle I'm fighting now, man.

(28:16):
And it's one day at a time, justlike recovery is.
Yeah man, it was well said yeah,I agree.
It's like, you know, just because I'm sober doesn't mean
my life is is good or perfect, right.
I I still have bottoms in recovery as as my friends remind
me what what does you mentioned gratitude there at the end.
What does like a, I get these gratitude cries every once in a

(28:39):
while where I just like, you know, it'll be a lot.
It happens a lot when I'm listening to music and I'll be
listening to a song and it'll remind me of a time, you know,
camping with my dad or something, or, you know, usually
classic rock because that's whatwe listen to a lot.
And I'll just have this moment where I'm just so grateful.
I start tearing up and I What does what does gratitude look
like to you when you're practicing a good, solid

(29:00):
recovery program? I'm going to say that one of the
most beautiful moments that I had, and I think this also goes
to show the strength of the overall recovery community, not
just for people in recovery, butalso people who embrace and
promote recovery. I was on a business trip and I

(29:22):
was listening to one of my favorite artists that even
though he's not 100% sober, really goes out of his way to
represent for recovery. And he is in recovery from his
drug of choice, but he's not completely sober.
And some people give him Flack for that.
But that's kind of the whole point of where I'm going to get
to in this. And that's Jelly roll.
I was listening to, you know, what's it Chapel, all the like,
more spiritual songs like she and save Me and all that.

(29:45):
And I was like breaking down crying because again, you know,
I'm sober. I'm on this business trip with
this international nonprofit organization doing like content
consultation, like just wild stuff, hotel boardroom
conference dinners. It's like, dude, I used to, I
used to use the same needle like20 * / a week.
Like, like, like what's what's good with this?

(30:07):
But I'm breaking down because I'm away from my family, I'm
away from my recovery resources and everybody on my team is very
supportive of my recovery. But, but I just don't have a
minute to myself. It's just work, work, work 3
hours of sleep every night because we're putting everything
together. And so I break down and start
crying, like you say, listening to this music.
And then I go home and that's the week that his new album

(30:28):
drops. And I'm trying to get back with
my family. I'm trying to like get back
right with myself, get back right with my recovery
community, balance my life out. And at this point, my youngest
son is like 9 months old. My older son is like 2 1/2

(30:49):
almost. And my they wake up at like 5-6
AM and I got a whole big day of work and we're out of eggs and
milk and my girl make some pancakes every morning and she's
like, you need to go to the store.
And I'm just angry is just beyond like salty just dragging
my feet to the car. And then I put on I'm like, oh,

(31:10):
the new Jelly roll album came out today.
So I put on the first song of it, which is winning streak.
And the songs and the song, the chorus is like, I was so afraid
to be in this seat till I met a man who was 20 years clean.
He said everybody here has felt the same defeat.
Nobody walks through these doorson a winning streak.
And it makes me cry just thinking about it, man.

(31:31):
Because I drove. I drove to the store and I was.
And that line played like the second chorus before I pulled up
in front of my house. And it had nothing to do with
getting sober, but I was so defeated and I was so
disappointed in myself and not being there for my family and
emotionally sober that when I walked through the door with
those eggs and that milk, I was just like, this is this is a

(31:52):
time for me to do this over. Like it had nothing to do with.
I was just like so disappointed in myself and what I was not
being there for my family. And it felt like I was walking
through the door of the treatment center again.
And I felt so inspired by that. Then I saw that people were like
making these videos hating on Jelly Roll.
Oh, he's not sober. Oh, he's a sellout.

(32:12):
Oh, he's Hollywood this and he'sthat.
And then as a person who is 9 years sober, hearing that song,
which had nothing to do with like a relapse, but just me
being so down in my recovery, feeling like I was so worthless.
I felt so seen and I felt so heard going through there.
So after I made-up with my kids and my girl and gave him a big
hug and apologized, broke down and started crying kind of like

(32:33):
I am now. I made AI made it real about
how, you know, this guy's doing amazing things, like, you know,
he's doing beautiful stuff for recovery.
We need to support all paths of recovery.
All this stuff. And I've thought nothing of it.
I went about my day and I put myphone down and I was really
trying to be there for my kids. And what ended up happening is
that Jelly Roll saw that post and on the day his album dropped

(32:57):
and he said to me, I'm crying right now in a comment on
TikTok. I feel seen and I feel hurt.
And the full circle moment thingabout that man is I was at a
point where I was breaking down and I was, I was feeling like I
was worthless. And so this person who's
inspired me countless times doesn't know me, doesn't know my

(33:20):
story. He's got his own demons, his own
path to recovery, whatever. But the point is, regardless of
where you are, whether you're like, you know, a dad working
like, you know, a middle class job driving to get milk for his
kids, or you're a country star who's selling out arenas, when
we tell the truth and we leave the door open for self
improvement and emotional vulnerability, we can be seen

(33:41):
and we can be heard. So every single time that I feel
like I'm, I'm not grateful, I'm alone.
I'm down on myself and I feel like my recovery is trash and I
feel like I'm undeserving where I am.
I get that imposter syndrome. It's not about the cloud of that
post or anything. It was just a moment where I was
at my lowest and I put on a message separate from a song, a

(34:04):
message of recovery and hope andnew beginnings.
And I realized that new beginning could happen for me.
And then seeing someone who I think, oh, he's selling out
arenas, millions of records likeAmerican Idol, Judge and all
that. But it's clear he was going
through some stuff on the day his album released.
So that lets me know it doesn't matter if you're a millionaire,
you're one of the most beloved famous people in the world or

(34:25):
you're just a dad getting milk and eggs.
We are all in this. And no matter how much money,
clout, fame you have, you are one moment away from an
emotional breakdown, but you're also one moment away from
gratitude and self improvement. So whenever I get down, it's
like, what's the what's the Jelly roll moment today?
What's the moment where instead of being salty that I got to go

(34:48):
balance my work and my family and my recovery, I can be like,
this is a gift. This is a gift.
Having to balance look at my sonin the eye and being present
then like going on e-mail and work, uploading A reel, like all
this stuff, this is a gift that I get to do this, man, this
isn't it might be exhausting. It might be, it might be
ridiculously taxing, but it's good work.

(35:08):
It's good tired. It's good pain.
And that's something that if I never got sober, I never would
have experienced the revelation that the very same painful,
vulnerable, cringing, incrediblyagonizing moments of
transparency are what's going tonot just keep us sober, but keep
us grateful. And I got, I got to plug in this

(35:29):
charger, but I'm just going to say you're good.
Yeah, but yeah, that was a moment for me where I was just
like, what are you doing, man? Like, where's the gratitude?
What is it? Yeah, I love that and that shift
from I have to do this to I get to do this today, right?
It's so subtle, but it's sometimes it could be powerful

(35:51):
too, right? Yeah, that's amazing, man.
I want to talk a little bit about, I want to talk about
music, but first I want to talk about like, how did you end up
getting into social media and, and spreading the word of
recovery? I think it's so important
because there's a lot of, there's a lot of crap and
garbage on social media and dangerous messages and
misinformation, but there's alsoa lot of hope and there's a lot

(36:13):
of hope. There's a lot of people doing
really important things, spreading the message.
And like I also like, like you said, is you never know when
you're going to get seen by the right person or the person that
needs to hear you or heard by the person that needs to hear
you. How did you transition from, you
know, into social media and posting reels and and helping

(36:35):
others that way? So when I was two years sober, I
was working towards my goal of becoming a drug counselor and I
made music for years in active addiction, mostly glamorizing
addiction. And I work with a lot of figures
that I'm very privileged to haveworked with in active addiction
like Project Pat Mac Miller may Rest in peace.
Before he blew up, I did a trackwith him.

(36:57):
And you know, when he died in 2018, you know, that really
spurred me to get back to writing, but I was just doing it
for me. I I wasn't really uploading.
I was uploading on SoundCloud, but I wasn't even really posting
on my Facebook because I didn't want, I didn't want people to
see it was literally just for me.
And I was working in the serviceindustry, paying my way through
college to be a drug counselor. And I had this moment at the

(37:19):
treatment center that saved my life.
And I want to make it clear where I was running these peer
recovery groups there, but I wasn't a clinician.
And at the end of one of the groups where like I would bring
speakers into these clinical settings, this kid who had been
rolling his eyes the whole time came up to me and he like
confronted me. He's like, hey man, like, you
know, I don't want to be sober because it seems like all you
guys talk about is recovery, blah, blah, blah.

(37:41):
And he reminded me of myself like 3 years before I was
actually ready to get sober and I was having a hard day.
So I just kicked it on. I was like, listen, man, I know
like just really levelling with him because he was like doing
perks and like Adderall, like inthe like low key in like a way
that I had been like right at the very beginning when and I
and I and I and I hit him with truth and I didn't sugarcoat it.

(38:04):
I cursed. I used the names of actual
substances, not the clinical names.
I used addict instead of substance use disorder.
But at the end of it, he's like,dude, like, I don't know if this
is OK, but like, I, I want to, can I get your number?
Like I actually want to talk to you about this, man.
Like, like, can we get lunch or something?
Like once I'm done with this, Like, I know, like, I'm like,
yeah, bro, like here you go. Like, like, let's do it.

(38:25):
And I did end up like going withhim to a recovery group and like
all that stuff down the line. But the counselor accosted me
and she's like, you can't do that.
And I was like, oh, no, I can't get lunch.
But like, you know, she's like, no, not that you can't use the
word addict. You can't use street names of
drugs. You can't be that
confrontational. Like, that's unprofessional.

(38:47):
And I wanted to scream at them. Like, you know, this kid was
rolling his eyes through the institutional language and all
this stuff, right? You know, I was talking to a man
to man, like addicts, addict, like, and like, this is what's
making him want to do this. But I didn't say that.
I was like, OK, And I bit my tongue and I kept working there
for three months. But I was just so disillusioned
about it because I was like, I can't be me.
I can't. I can't say what I want to say.

(39:09):
And that inspired me more to getinto my music.
And then three months later, I was up in Vermont because my dad
built a house up here, a little cabin in the 70s.
And he gave it to me after I gotsober.
And I was working on fixing it up with the eventual aim of
moving up here to be a drug counselor.
But then I didn't even know if Iwanted to do that.
You know, I was still in school.Long story short, a friend of a
friend came up to my house in Vermont with an old piano, heard

(39:32):
one of the first piano rap tracks I've been putting
together about recovery. He's like, dude, I know this guy
who's just built a studio here in Vermont, you should really
meet him. So I meet with the guy who owns
the studio. I play him the song, and it
turns out he's not just a producer, he's also a doctor,
Broadway producer and Doctor Whohas been sitting in on this back
in 2018, community forums at thebeginning of the fentanyl crisis

(39:55):
about Community Action that can be taken to raise awareness
about fighting the epidemic. But since he wasn't an addict,
he didn't know how to reach people do that way.
But he wanted to give back philanthropically, like help
people. So he met me, heard my music
here in my store, and he asked me a question that changed
everything. He said, do you think you can
reach more people by speaking honestly and through your music

(40:15):
or through an institutional setting?
And I was already thinking that I couldn't do that.
And I was like, through music. And he's like.
Why don't you come back up here?I want to buy the rights to one
of your songs, like we'll do a one off thing and if it works
like and I was just stoked because like he he paid me to
perform. It was my dream to be a
professional musician and we started doing these songs
together and he was buying the rights to the songs and I was

(40:35):
stoked on that. But four songs and I was like,
dude, like this is a good partnership.
Like we got to split this 5050 here on out if you want to keep
working with me. And I was expecting to be like,
Ah, Nah, like whatever. But what he said was, no, we
don't just need to do that. You need to move up here full
time. I'm going to get an arts
residency going for you. And we're going to do this
album. We're going to do this work.

(40:57):
And so I packed all my stuff. I moved to Vermont.
Everybody in my recovery group told me I was crazy.
They said I was giving everything up.
But I knew. I prayed about it, and I knew it
was right. So I moved up here.
We did the album clean the pianorap album.
But then the pandemic happened and all the tour stuff he was
setting up fell through, and I started working at the magazines

(41:17):
he also owned as a journalist. Another opportunity or recovery?
Because at that time, like, liveshows were shut down and we were
still working on music, but it was a hiatus.
And then I met the woman who's now the fiance and the mother of
my kids. I settled down and I got to
another point where I was like the same way in recovery.
I don't care if I never do musicagain.
I got a son, I got a job, like Igot a life.

(41:39):
But then one night, my son was five months old, and my girl
couldn't sleep while she was nursing him.
And like, all this stuff, and she's scrolling through reels on
her phone. And at this point, I've done,
like, community programs before and after the pandemic over
Zoom, like prevention summits. I've started writing a column
about recovery. I've started doing an FM radio
show about recovery, But I don'tknow anything about social

(42:02):
media. I've seen a couple reels come
across my feed, but they're not recovery related.
And then I'm like, and she's gotall these trending audio things
going through phone. And me, the millennial, she's
nine years younger than me. She's 25 now and I'm 33, about
to be 34. And I'm like, what's that?
She's like, oh, it's reels. And I was like, what are those?
And she shows me these reels of like all these moms taking care

(42:22):
of their kids and all these fitness influencers because she
likes to run and all this stuff.And I'm like, oh, that's cool.
She's like, yeah, you should make these about recovery.
And I'm like, oh, I can't do that.
Nobody's wanting want to hear that.
And the crazy thing is the algorithm listens to what you
say on your phone. And over the next couple weeks,
I started seeing reels from Jimmy McGill, Brad from Sober

(42:43):
Motivation. I'm Rachel Elizabeth Quinn
Lapeer, the Cali sober creator. And, and, and it just magically
shows up and I'm like, wait, people are doing this.
And I was 6 1/2 years sober and I was like, wait, I can really
do this. So I bought a phone and I got
permission from my team and I just started recording.

(43:04):
And at first I was like trying to make it like other people.
And I was like trying to be exactly the same.
And like a couple things were catching, some things weren't.
And then I realized, like, dude,you shouldn't make yourself work
for this. You should make this work for
you. If it's not going to naturally

(43:24):
work, it's not going to work. So instead of trying to stage
it, make it all like professional, like whatever
studio, like high quality, whatever.
I just started grabbing my phone, taking my dog on walks
around my block and sharing moments in my recovery where I
was tested and what helped me get through it.
And the only rules I applied to it were, is it true?

(43:46):
Would it help me in early recovery or would it help me in
active addiction? And when I gave up on trying to
make it cool, when I gave up on trying to make a streamline,
when I just did one take, threw a filter on it, threw some
captions on it and just hit post, that's when it that's when
it actually got some momentum. And I attribute that to the fact

(44:08):
that, you know, clout and influence and money and, you
know, status is an addiction just as much as a substance ever
was. It takes it back to like when I
said it wasn't just about the substance numbing me, it was
that it became my identity. And so when I finally was like,
I don't care about followers. I don't care about none of this,
Let's just put the message out and let's do it.

(44:31):
That's when it started connecting me with people.
And I've more than any numbers whatever.
I became part of this community that you're part of as well.
There's so many great people arepart of where hopefully whether
it reaches 1,000,000 people or 100 people, we're just sharing
what we know and doing our best to be there for people in the
way that they were there for us on the other side off of the
phone, but using social media and the fact we could be open

(44:54):
about recovery through this to put it out there.
Oh man, well, I, I needed to hear that.
Thank you. It's so true.
Like, you know, I'm struggling recently with with chasing the
followers, chasing the likes, chasing the clout, and I can
easily tell myself that I'm doing it for the right reason.
And, you know, I got into this ultimately, and I truly do know

(45:16):
this and believe this, the podcast, but also social media
to stay sober myself, right? Like that was, that was goal
number one. I need to surround myself with
recovery because if I'm not sober, I can't help anybody.
I can't do anything. I can't be a husband, I can't be
a son, I can't be a brother. I can't do any of these things
if I'm not sober. So that was, that was my rule #1
And I love that you said that you, you kind of, you stick with

(45:39):
three rules, right? Is it true?
Yeah, 100%. That's important.
Like I can't be, I can't be fabricating some of my stories
or glorifying anything or, you know, just straight up lying
because I lied every day, every second of every day when I was
in active addiction. And I can still lie today.
I still struggle with that, right.
So, you know, am I being authentic today?

(45:59):
That's because that's what's going to, that's what's going to
help that one person that, that we're thinking about, you know,
because to your point, when I came in, somebody was authentic
to me, somebody was kind to me. And that's what kept me around,
kept me calling that person and asking for help because I wanted
what they had. And they always said to me, I
always say this, it's like, son,if you want what, what I have,

(46:20):
you know, here's what I did. You can do it or, or not do it.
It's, it's up to you. There's suggestions, right?
And ultimately I'm, I'm gratefulthat I, I followed those
suggestions today. So yeah, I needed to hear that.
I need to hear it too. I, I can get so caught up
because it's like a rush when you see there's been so many
podcasts about, it's a dopamine hit.

(46:40):
You know what I mean? And, and I'm a creator.
It's inherent in the, in the phrase, there's AJ Cole line
from, you know, fire squad off 2014 Forest Hills Drive.
At the end of the day, every poet just wants to be loved.
And so I'm not going to fake like, I don't want people to
like what I'm doing. I was just, I don't care.
Of course I care. I'm creating something, whether

(47:02):
it's a talk reel or a song. Of course I like it.
But that can't that reality, that admission that yes, I do
like views or positive feedback.Yeah, that can't be the aim that
that's the best. I acknowledge that that
motivation is there. It's not going to magically

(47:23):
disappear. But can we extricate ourselves
from that and make stuff that's not driven by that?
Yeah, the driving force. That's what I was going to say.
Yeah. Yeah.
It can't be the North Star, right?
It can't be the driving force, the because, yeah, I mean,
outcomes. I'm very focused on outcomes
when I'm, when I'm not in the best place or and I'm not, you

(47:45):
know, I would say spiritually onthe beam or, or working a
program of recovery, I'm focusing on outcomes.
And I have expectations. And you mentioned it before, but
expectations just lead to resentments, right?
Because again, you're not livingaccording to Anthony's script.
And if it was done this way, if everyone just listened to me,
life would be better, right? And, and that's led me to so
many dark, dark paths before What, what's, what's one of your

(48:10):
favorite lines that you, you rapabout?
Or because there's so many good ones, man.
And I was trying to look up yourlyrics before to find them, but
you know, they're not anywhere. So I just figured I would ask
you instead because there was a lot that hit me where I was
like, damn, like that was reallywell said.
But if you had to think of, you know, a line that you're really
either proud of or, or even a song that you're proud of or
something that you really, you know, helped you, what would

(48:34):
that be? I think the three verses that I
think music is recreation when it's good.
So I try not to make it a meritocracy and I'm not going to
big up myself by saying, oh, like this is bar like it is what

(48:56):
it is. I mean, some of my favorite
rappers don't have any bars. They just have charisma and
they've got good delivery. Some are the opposite.
They don't have any flow, but like they're, they're words hit
and sometimes they're not even deep.
They're just funny or they're they there's no grading system.
Lists are fun. Like whatever.
I just, I just need to remind myself of that because what I

(49:19):
like isn't necessarily what other people relate to.
I've been surprised. Like people say things and I'm
like, oh, that's corny. I don't like that bar.
But then they're like that. I'm damn near want to get that
tattooed on me, people. I'm like, whoa, that's awesome.
But like, it's just it's very particular.
I would say that the three songs.
That. I that mean the most to me are

(49:41):
Scars off of Clean, Price of Addiction, my song with Matt
Keegan means a lot to me and notstopping off of my first DP
after Clean means a lot to me. The reason those 3 songs mean
the most to me is Scars is something.
I actually wrote that verse whenI was three months sober and I

(50:03):
never intended it to be a rap because it was about when
someone saw one of my track Markscars at work and asked about it
and I had to be honest with him.And I decided to be honest when
I was working as a busboy. Price of addiction.
I wrote that verse at 3:00 AM after putting my baby back to
sleep when I couldn't sleep whenMatt had sent me the original

(50:26):
like raw version of the beat. And I was trying to make it all
these things. But I was just like, what would
you want someone to say if they were giving you tough love about
like what would await if you if you went back?
And I, I'm not going to say I freestyled it, but I wrote it in
15 minutes. I wasn't sure Matt was going to
like it. I just sent it to him and it is
what it is on the song. And not stopping means a lot to

(50:49):
me because I was in a place where I was recording a lot of
verses for social media. It wasn't clear whether my team
was going to let me make them into songs.
I was starting to get a lot of hate for recovery being the
omnipresent thing in my music. And, you know, the person who

(51:10):
inspired me the most. I mean, of course, you know,
Eminem, Royce to 59, Jelly Roll.Yeah.
But Khaleesi, more than anybody is my #1 inspiration as a artist
in recovery. And that was the song that
connected me with him. That was the verse where when I

(51:31):
dropped the raw version, he he reached out to me and it was
kind of a beautiful thing because I didn't plan it.
All three of those verses were written through.
I didn't think about them. I just penned them almost
freestyle style. And they've ended up being kind

(51:53):
of the most significant things that have opened my life up.
But more than that just remindedme that it's all about being
present when you write somethingrather than having a concerted
aim and kind of in the same way as in recovery.
If I can get out of my own way, cool stuff can happen.
Kind of the best laid plans don't always amount to

(52:14):
something. And so more than like the bars,
because there's some things where like my favorite line of
anything that I've ever done personally, just because I like
hip hop and it's so multi layered is on not stopping.
It's because when the M boxes and H turned to pawn boxes, too
many friends passed like Nash and John Stockton.

(52:36):
Like that's the one like when itcame out, I was just like, OK,
that's that's something that like if I was in active
addiction, I would have been like, OK, that's that's hip hop.
So I'm I'm happy with that. And a lot of people have, you
know, gassed me about that or whatever.
They're like, Oh, that's I neverheard like a recovery line like
that. And I'm like, well, we've all

(52:58):
lived it. So whether it rhymes or not, or
it puts metaphors together in like a clever way or whatever,
sure. But the challenge I deal with
that is how can I encapsulate losing friends in the evolution
of the opioid epidemic from pills of fentanyl And like in
one line. And and that's to me is whether

(53:20):
it's talk content or music, it'slike, yeah, you can have bars,
you can have good delivery, you can look in the camera the white
right way, have a good angle, have a good mix.
Like, sure. But is it true?
And is it going to help people? And we won't know that until the
help people until it goes out. But usually if it helps us by

(53:40):
saying it or rapping or singing it, then there's a better chance
that it's going to help somebody.
And that and that's how I try torun my game, yeah.
I love it, man. Well, you've helped me today.
Honestly it's been a great conversation so far and I.
Appreciate it my boys bro thank you.

(54:01):
I wanna end with this. If you could say something to a
struggling artist, creator, you know, whether they're getting
started or they don't know if they want to do this full time
yet or or maybe they're struggling with drugs and
alcohol as well. What would you say to that
person? Well, I actually have a song I'm

(54:22):
working on and what's funny is Iwas going to click on my notes
to like try to search it and find it and, and this is
provenance. It's literally right there.
I didn't, I didn't expect. I was just working on it like
yesterday. And I don't know if this song is
ever going to come out. My team probably won't let me do
it because they want me to do more melodic stuff moving
forward after this next recoveryEP.
But this is what I'd say to them.

(54:45):
If you have a story and a potenttruth, you don't need a budget
or the dopest booth. You just need to trust that what
you're going through is something other people
understand that's truly overdue for sharing.
Even when the algorithm's looking over you.
Because even if some people don't acknowledge while they're
scrolling through, even if you have to start from scratch and
start over a few more iterations, modern attention

(55:07):
spans have limitations. Don't let your zone of creation
fold to intimidation. You don't need a filming crew,
and you don't need a selfie stand to actualize your vision.
You just need to develop a plan.Never let your insecurity limit
creative growth. If you have knowledge, channel
it through your content and makeit known.
And if you're only in it for thefame or the clout, take it back

(55:28):
to the basics. And then reframe what you're
about and ask yourself when the money in the hype disappears.
Will your content inspire peopleto fight through their fears?
Wow. Thank you.
I love it was interesting that that was like right there.
That was I was working on 'causeI know that encapsulated the

(55:49):
whole episode. I hope so.
I mean, oh man, listen, I hope that comes out.
What I would say separate from that indulgent millennial
recovery boy versus if you have a crappy, you know, prepaid gas
station Android phone with low pixels and you have a crappy

(56:09):
looking apartment, yeah, it might not look like a Rachel
Elizabeth or sober motivation video, shout out to them.
It might not look like a BrandonNovak video, shout out to him.
But it's going to look like the phones and apartments of a lot
of other people who are actuallyin early recovery going through

(56:31):
the struggle. And even if the algorithm
doesn't prioritize you, you, it's not just about honesty and
what you say. You don't need to save up for
like a dope iPhone or like Galaxy to like have good
content. You don't have to have perfectly
color sync stuff. You can use stock Facebook,
YouTube shorts, Instagram, TikTok fonts, not even correct.

(56:55):
The captions, not even place them, not even have perfect
bordering or like camera placement.
If what you're saying is true and it comes from the heart,
even if you don't have anything to say and you're just like 353
days sober today, like I got a job today.
Like, you know, one of the most powerful videos I've seen that
went mega viral and it made me so happy to see it is a girl

(57:16):
wasn't even saying anything. And the girl wasn't even talking
about being strong in recovery. She had her phone on and she was
crying with a trending audio of honest Dave.
I'd rather overdose. And she said, I'm driving around
in my car crying, trying to get through the cravings so that I
can be there for my kids and notgo back.
And it got 10s of millions of views.

(57:39):
And it didn't come from it beinga pre camera.
It was a horrible camera, horrible angle, horrible content
sync. But it was real.
And God bless her for doing thatman.
Because that's the type of content the world needs.
It's not polished, it's not professional, it's real, it's

(58:00):
resonant, and it's saving people's lives.
Pick up the camera. Don't let anybody else hating.
Don't let your own voice hating.If you have something to share,
pick up the phone, hit post and let the chips fall.
You have no idea how many peoplewant to hear you.
None. I guarantee it.
Yeah. Well said.

(58:23):
Yeah, one of my favorite people,you know, and he, he's an author
too, but producer Rick Rubin, hehas a amazing book called The
Creative Way or Creative Act or something.
And he always goes back to, you know, art creation art.
It's, it's not for the audience,it's for the the artist, right.

(58:45):
And how it's going to be received is how it's going to be
received, right? It's not up to me.
I can't control that. But if it makes me happy and I'm
happy with it, then it's art andit's my art, you know?
And it's a beautiful thing. So I appreciate you, Benjamin.
You're I'm, I'm happy to have met you.
And I look forward to the many more tracks that you're going to

(59:05):
put out in reels and keep doing what you're.
Doing likewise, man, God bless you, God bless your platform,
and one day, in one pot at a time, we can do this.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
informational and motivational purposes only.

(59:28):
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health professional.
You are no longer alone.