Postpone the Suicide 24 Hours — and Everything Changed

After decades of drinking, failed restarts, and hitting countless rock bottoms, Tom found himself on the edge — alone in a Toronto condo, terrified and ready to end it all. But one small moment — looking into his dog’s eyes — changed everything.

In this raw and honest conversation, we talk about:

• Surviving suicidal thoughts and choosing life one day at a time

• Why “never too late” really matters in addiction recovery

• The unexpected kindness of a first AA Zoom meeting

• Practical tools to fight overwhelm: “next right thing,” morning check-ins, and self-compassion

If you’re struggling with addiction, self-worth, or feeling like change is impossible — this story will give you hope, practical recovery insights, and proof you’re not alone.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Willow is a Shih Tzu. She's like this big.
I don't know why I'm putting my hands in front of the
microphone. That's not that's not how
microphones work. She's like this big and she's a
Princess, OK? But the one thing her superpower
is she can, she can sense when something's wrong.
And she's like up on the couch looking at me as I'm looking

(00:21):
back at her having a smoke and thinking about jumping.
And I'm like, I can't leave her.I can't abandoned her because in
my mind, everybody's evil enoughto ruin my life, including God.
Like God probably hates me. So if I leave, she'll be
defenseless because she's defenseless to begin with.
And and there'll be nobody to take care of her.
And I love her. And then that that last thing

(00:44):
that I thought was like, I love her.
And I'm like, yeah. And I was like, and she loves
me. I'm like, well then maybe I'm
not. Maybe there's something worth
saving. And I was like, you know what?
We could put a in on the suicideand we could just postpone that
24 hours. Hi there, welcome back or

(01:07):
welcome to Recovering Out Loud Podcast, the show where we get
real about mental health and addiction.
I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is
struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for
help. Send me a message on all social
media platforms at Recovering Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at

(01:27):
[e-mail]. You are no longer alone.

(01:49):
Like I was actually just saying like my, you'd, you'd think with
an ego as large as mine, I wouldactually see it coming.
Like I would see when it's affecting me.
And I made a joke. It's like a stealth bomber
loaded with bad decisions. It just, it just keeps like you
don't even see it. And the next thing you know,
like, why am I, what am I doing?Like, Oh, I'm being run on, you

(02:10):
know, letting my defects kind ofrun the show.
And, and then I'm surprised, youknow, like, oh, well, why didn't
this work out? It's like, 'cause you weren't
like, actually paying attention to reality.
You're up in your head and you're like, this is all going
to work out. This is exactly, I know exactly
how this is going to go. And you're like, yeah, you're
doing it again. I'm like, oh, OK.

(02:31):
So I try to laugh on myself whenthat happens.
Yeah, me too. It's sort of like projecting
this movie, right? We walk around with like movie
projectors, this is how it actually is.
And then reality's over here andwe're spinning this movie up on
the screen and it's no, that's the movie.
That's that's what's happening. That's the truth.
Yeah, yeah. And that's it's really not.

(02:52):
And and, you know, like, I try to remember that it's like we're
given brains for a reason. Like we like the ability to
imagine, to take like observations and then imagine
something different. Like, you know, that's worked
out pretty well for humanity. Like, you know, like tools, more

(03:17):
money, you know, the ability to exchange value.
Like every piece of technology came from somebody imagining
something that didn't exist. And and that's great.
You know, the problem is that it's the discernment, right?
It's the like, OK, so I've got an idea.

(03:38):
OK, well, that's nice. Like is it making me happy?
Is it going to be useful? Which is like I'm stealing that
from some guy on a podcast. I don't remember which one, but
and then it like, if it is, you know, maybe maybe stay on that,
stay with that thought and see where it goes.

(04:00):
But like, for the most part, it's just like scroll to the
next thought, you know, like, because I, I think of the brain
as like an algorithm, you know, we've got these like, you know,
when you go on your phone, you see what it's learning, right?
So the more time you spend with a thought, the more it tries to
make thoughts like that and support that, the more energy

(04:21):
you put into a thought, the more, the deeper into that
thought you're going to go. And for me, that can be useful,
but it can also be really unhealthy.
I can just sit with like negative thoughts for a long
time and then I have feelings about thoughts and thoughts
anyway. What are the majority of those
thoughts recently for you? The negative ones.
I mean, I have a lot of let's get right into it, I guess.

(04:49):
Tell me your deepest secrets. I'm like, oh boy, I think so.
I started drinking when I was 13, give or take.
And they say, you know, once youstart drinking at least and I
drank alcoholically probably right from the start because my

(05:10):
I was in a band when I was 17 and they gave me a shirt instant
asshole just at alcohol. And I remember very clearly like
a bunch of times my bandmates kind of like not loving drunk
Tom. And so when you're drinking like
that, you're, you're drinking toavoid the consequences and like

(05:33):
you're not developing as a humanbeing.
So emotionally like I'm probablylike, I don't know, 15 years old
sometimes, like a lot of times. And so the thoughts I have are a
little bit like a 15 year old boy, not a little bit.
They're identical to a 15 year old boy.

(05:54):
So it's a lot of these things about like girls are scary, like
I want to run up and pull their hair instead of like being like
a thoughtful, caring person. The world is scary.
It's really hard for me to remember.
Like, you know what, like just because you do have a 15 year
old boys inside of you doesn't mean you can't parent that and

(06:15):
like manage those emotions yourself.
You like you can do that. Like I'm capable.
Like if you were to say, Hey, I'm having a bad day, you know,
I don't know, like I, like I tore.
I've got a huge hole in the backof my jeans right now.
I thought you. Were joking about that.
No, it's, it's like, it's a thing.

(06:35):
And I was like, nobody's going to notice.
And I wanted to wear these jeansbecause these are like, I look,
I think I look cool in these jeans except for, you know, the
back where I look like the person that doesn't know that
they have a huge hole in their jeans anyway.
But if you were to call me and say, I can't believe it, I was
on the TTC and I had this huge hole in my jeans, I'd be like,
oh man, that sucks. You know, like I could probably
talk to you and like, you know, in a kind, compassionate way

(06:59):
and, and listen and be like, youknow what, You're a good guy,
you know? So it's turning that voice to
myself and being like, OK, like,you know, but I do have a lot of
thoughts about relationships. Like those are scary trying to
rebuild my life, like trying to get back into the work, into
work and my career. Just feeling like, you know,

(07:25):
like imposter syndrome is a really common one.
Yeah, yeah. I don't deserve this, right?
How did I, how did I get here? Like I I don't belong.
I don't deserve this. Yeah, I've, I've come up with
that from time to time, for sure.
Yeah, yeah. Let's get right into it, I
guess. What's the what was your sort of
childhood like? How did you find alcohol and

(07:47):
drugs and what did they do for you?
Yeah, OK. So like I said, I was, I was
really into music. So, you know, I worked like a
fellow. I'm in a fellowship and we go
through steps and one of the steps is an is an inventory.
And I've done that a couple times.

(08:08):
And one of the benefits of goingthrough that work is that you
start to realize not everybody was out to get you, you know, so
when I first went through, I waslike, oh, you know, mom and dad
are terrible and they're Alcoholics and blah, blah, blah.
And that's all true. But one of the things I started
to remember is a lot of the goodthings about my childhood.
And 1 was like, my mom knew thatI loved music.

(08:33):
And she, like when I was a kid, I would go up to these, this
like techniques, organ that we had in our house and I would
play along to the music on the radio when I was like 6 years
old. So I had that, that, you know, I
had an ear for music, which is just something some people have.

(08:54):
And so I, I was like, I really wanted to be in bands and I, and
I just love music. So I got into bands because my
mom would literally drive me to like Ottawa.
I lived in Kempville, she'd drive me to Ottawa to try out
for these bands when I was like 15 years old.
And she also loaned me the moneyto buy my first keyboard because

(09:14):
there's a keyboard player. It was like Ross, the Ross
Keller of the band, you know, not like the cool guy.
I was like the nerdy guy, like, you know, like, so it's not that
well, whatever. And eventually I got into, I got
into a couple bands and and thenI found one where I would like,
we were actually in that for a couple of years and we actually
like made an album in the studio, kind of like this place

(09:38):
in Ottawa. And it was a big part of my
life, but I was also scared out of my mind, you know, because
the kids were older. They were like 2-3 years older
than me. And I just, and I, I was just
like, you know, it's intimidating to play music in
front of people. So I started turning to alcohol
to do that. And yeah, I remember going to

(10:01):
this one, like party in a field where there was a bunch of bands
like playing and this one guy that was really cool and he
looked like Axel Rose. And he was literally drinking
like a bottle of Jack Daniels, you know, and pouring Coke into
it. And, you know, and I was like, I
want to be that guy. And that's, that was like one of

(10:22):
the reasons I really started drinking a lot.
The other reason was, well, I, I, you know, that's, I kind of
misspoke there. I heard somebody say like, none
of the things that happened to me made me an alcoholic.
I am an alcoholic and these things happened.

(10:43):
But when I took those drinks, it's it was it was the fact that
I'm an alcoholic that really, you know, determined the course
of my life because, you know, wetalked about like a mental
obsession and a physical allergy, right?
But another thing that like wasn't great was when I was a

(11:04):
kid, my dad, after he divorced my mom, he got sober, he went
into the rooms, he met a woman, she sponsored him and then she
married him. So she 13th stepped him, as they
say, And I clocked that I'm like, that's not cool.

(11:25):
But he had also kind of sat me down and said, you know, this
like now that I'm sober, dad's back, you're going to we're
going to have we're going to have a great time.
And then I remember getting intohis sports car that he bought
this IROC like the cheesiest sports car you could buy.
And I remember thinking, yeah, this would be really great.
I'm going to sit next to my dad and blah, blah, blah.

(11:46):
And he's like, you got to sit inthe back.
Like Jackie's sitting in the front.
And I just like, I remember that, like being so pissed off
about that. And so I got dragged to Alateen.
I got dragged all these meetingsand we say like attraction
rather than promotion. This was like if this was shoved
down my throat and I had the quiz given to me of like, are

(12:06):
you an alcoholic? And I was like not ready for
that, like at all. So I resisted it.
And yeah, yeah, yeah. So got kind of a shitty taste in
my mouth very early, but like one I was drinking and I was
almost drinking at her of like, you know what?
Like I know what'll piss you offthe most is if I keep doing

(12:28):
this. So I did it.
Yeah, but that was high school. Yeah.
And then so you carried on and what sort of what was the moment
that you kind of were brought toyour knees or you realized that
this wasn't working the way it used to or, you know, I need
help. What was that first moment like?

(12:48):
Well, the first time was actually I just a couple years
later and I'd actually did the whole music thing and then I
actually like shaved my, I'm just going to take my 2 cloth
actually, because it's hot in here.
So I shaved my head and I moved.I was all over the place.
I, I like dropped out of high school for a while and I was
like a landscaper and it was all, I was all over the place.

(13:14):
But yeah, I, you know, Long story short, I, I, I decided to
clean up my act and get into a good university.
And I did, I, I got into the Royal Military College of
Canada, which is like, it's a full scholarship and I wanted to
be in the army and that was all going to be good.
And I stopped drinking for a while too.

(13:35):
And then to celebrate, we went to the Beef Baron in London,
which is a very prestigious establishment.
It's got a, it's got a $10, all you can eat beef sandwich buffet
right next to like the champagnerooms, right.
And so we went there and then onthe way home, I told the guys to

(13:56):
pull over so I could punch a guyin the face.
And I went to jail. And I remember sitting in that
jail cell being like, OK, I justlike ruined my entire life in
like 5 minutes. And luckily, well, I, I said,
that's it, I'm going to quit drinking.

(14:16):
And I went to a few meetings and, and then they kind of like,
they kind of, they didn't kick me out of the Army.
They didn't shut down my scholarship.
They sent me off because they'rekind of like used car recruiters
are kind of like used car salesman for humans.
And they're like, we've already closed that deal.
I've already got my Commission. Like I'm not reversing it.

(14:37):
I don't know, that's kind of, that's not a very nice thing to
say, but but anyway, Long story short, there were no
consequences. And so I clocked that and I was
like, you know what, I kind of, I got this, I got this.
And so just to like, I won't take you through my entire life
because it's long, but the moment when I actually got down

(15:01):
on, I didn't get down on my knees, but I was like, God help
me, I was 49. So probably another 30 years of
my life that I spent not being willing.
Yeah. And that's when I that's when I
was like, OK, I'm either going to kill myself or I'm going to
go back to A and try it. So yeah.

(15:23):
That's awesome. I mean, I think a lot of people
need to hear that. It's never too late though, too,
right? Like I, I've always used to hear
that man, because I came in at 23 and I remember there was
like, I'd go into, you know, youhear all the things like, Oh,
you know, I don't think anyone'sever directly said this to me,
but you know, I've spilled more alcohol than you've drank in

(15:43):
sun, right? And I remember somebody in a, in
a meeting one time saying like, I came in young and let me tell
you, I suffered. Like I remember her saying that
and I suffered, you know what I mean?
Like I belong here. I qualify to be here because I
suffered. And everyone's suffering looks
different, right? That's not to say that you
didn't suffer for all those years, right?
But it's like people come in when they come in and, and their

(16:05):
time is their time and you can'tforce it on anybody.
Like did you have people that were sort of pushing like, I
mean, I guess so you had your family pushing you in that
direction, which? Yeah, I mean, the my stepmother
left the scene and actually I turned my back on my family when
I was like early 20s. I've had, I've lost jobs because

(16:31):
of the things I did when I was under the influence of alcohol.
I've been to jail a few times, been homeless.
Like I, I slept on a yoga mat ina gym that I didn't own.
It was funny because a few months earlier I had owned a
couple gyms and I had like a nice place.

(16:52):
And the next thing you know, I'mlike sleeping on a buddy's in a
buddy's gym in the backroom, in the squat rack, you know, And I
made a joke on my powerlifting career is going to make a
comeback now because I'm so committed.
I'm literally living here. Yeah, that's.
Not what's going on, Tom. So, you know, just the insanity
of like, and the funniest thing too.

(17:14):
Sorry, I know I'm not answering a question directly, but the
number of times that I would be like at absolute rock like I'd
be at rock bottom like it'd be like.
And I still wasn't I wasn't low enough for me like everybody
else would maybe say like this is suffering like you're
homeless. And I'm like, yeah, but I you
know what? I got this guy to let me stay in

(17:34):
the back of his gym and like, I've got this.
And the amount of confidence that I had at those moments was
unlike like that was the highestlevel of confidence I had.
And then as stuff would start toget like, I'd actually start to
put my life back together because I was a functional
alcoholic. I don't know if that's actually
a thing, but you know, I wouldn't drink till 5:00 PM

(17:55):
every night. I would just run on like Red
Bull and ignorance. So about 4:30 and then I'd be
like, oh, this is my life sucks.Oh, I guess I'll drink.
But yeah, I would be like, I gotthis every single time.
And and I, you know, I had a buddy too.
We surfed together in the Army. I was in the Army for 10 years.

(18:16):
And he always kind of like kept tabs on me from a distance.
And I remember one time him picking me up in his truck and
loading up all my gym gear and all this other stuff and putting
me up in his basement. And the very first thing I did
was like, find the nearest bar and go get fucked up.
And he put up with me for a while.

(18:37):
And then he was like, you got togo.
Like, my, my wife is like just she can't stand having you
around. But it was many, many years of
very, very of a very lonely life.
Yeah. And.
And yeah. So what?
Would you say is the the biggestthing that sort of helped you
finally stop? So I'm really stubborn and

(19:04):
that's not I'm not I, I used to think that was a good quality.
And it can be hard working. It can be hard working.
Yeah. Banging your head against the
wall. It's not OK.
So there's anyway, so the reasonthat I finally stopped was
because I was, I was downtown Toronto.

(19:29):
I was living in a condo by myself.
It was like a 2 bedroom condo onthe 43rd floor.
Great view. I had a company and I had six
people on my payroll, 5 people, five people my, myself included
six people on payroll, a couple of contractors and we had like

(19:51):
10s of thousands of dollars coming in every month.
And I was like looking over the gardener and I was thinking like
I should probably just kill myself.
Because I thought like, if I make enough money, if I, if I do
this, if I do this, if I do this, you know, I'll be happy

(20:15):
and this feeling will go away. And I knew I had enough money to
keep drinking the level I was drinking for at least a few more
years. And, and I knew every morning I
woke up just absolutely terrified, like shaking and I
couldn't sleep. And I was just like, Oh my God,

(20:40):
like I'm in hell and I don't know what to do.
And I was just like, well, maybeI should kill myself.
And then I look over and I've got this.
I've got like this dog. You probably heard me talk about
the dog, right? Willow.
And she's and anyways, Willow's a Shih Tzu.

(21:01):
She's like this big. I don't know why I'm putting my
hands in front of the microphone.
That's not that's not how microphones work.
And she's like, this big and she's a Princess, OK.
But the one thing her superpower, she can, she can
sense when something's wrong andshe's like up on the couch
looking at me as I'm looking back at her having a smoke and

(21:24):
thinking about jumping. And I'm like, I can't leave her.
I can't abandoned her because inmy mind, everybody's evil and
have to ruin my life, including God, Like God probably hates me.
So if I leave, she'll be defenseless because she's
defenseless to begin with and and there'll be nobody to take
care of her. And I love her.

(21:45):
And then that that last thing that I thought was like, I love
her. And I'm like, yeah.
And I was like, and she loves me.
I'm like, well, then maybe I'm not.
Maybe there's something worth saving.
And I was like, you know what? We could put a pin on the

(22:06):
suicide and we could just postpone that 24 hours and we go
to a meeting and see what happens.
And if, if it doesn't work out, we can just come back to the
suicide idea. And so I did.
And that was like, well, I actually know.
It was 2 years, two months and 23 days ago, yeah.
That's amazing, man. Do you remember?

(22:26):
I'm sure. Well, maybe you do, but do you
remember hearing anything at that, that meeting that kind of
kept you wanting to go back? Honestly this is kind of
bothering me and it has been. It's like I remember it was a
Zoom meeting because I was afraid to leave.
I had like agoraphobia, like I was afraid.
I was just afraid of everything.I was afraid to go outside.

(22:47):
So I just went to Zoom meetings.And I all I remember is this guy
from Georgia who was became my temporary sponsor almost
immediately and got me through like the first month.
But I don't remember the first meeting like I don't.
I think and, and I so I think a lot of people say that where
they're like, I don't remember what was said, but it's more so,

(23:09):
and this is, you know, to the point of to me, it proves the
power of of community of recovery.
Community doesn't have to be 12 step doesn't I don't care what
the fuck it is. There's a community, right?
You need some kind of community.In my experience, my opinion,
there's an energy in that, in that that meeting, that room
that keeps me, that kept me coming back.

(23:31):
Right. My first meeting experience was
in Minnesota because I went there for treatment.
I didn't know anything about 12 step recovery.
I didn't know anything about recovery at all.
And they forced me to go and I and all these kids were talking
about it. I was 23.
They were all younger than me. They were like, yeah, it's
places like, you know, it's scary.
And there's these old dudes withbeards.
There's a men's meeting. It was called, it was called

(23:51):
like bad boys or mad dogs or something.
It was all biker dude. Yeah, like Duck Dynasty to AT.
So I'm walking into this place where, you know, the the duck
line, right, line of like a lineof ducks from rehab getting out
of the druggy buggy, like walking.
And all these dudes are sitting on their Harleys smoking
cigarettes just looking at us, right.
Like just I'm like, this is how did I end up?

(24:14):
Like, how is this going to help me one.
And two, how the fuck did I end up here?
But there was something about itthat to me, so and I don't
remember anything that was said in that meeting, but I do
remember a bunch of dudes sharing vulnerably, a bunch of
tough looking motherfuckers getting open and talking about
how things that I felt I couldn't be more different than

(24:34):
these guys. But I felt that camaraderie of
like, I felt that, I felt that, I felt that.
And then that was sort of the spark that was like, I don't
know what's going on here, but Ineed it.
I want it and I need it because the way I was living, not ideal,
not ideal whatsoever. And you know me in hotel rooms
by myself doing cold all night. Not fun anymore.

(24:58):
Yeah, it's oh God, yeah. Like I the thing that I
remember, I remember, I rememberKeith because it was like this
bald 6 year old black guy from Georgia and just the energy off
of him, like the optimism and the hope and the kindness.
I remember that. And I remember him like kind of
like, I remember it was a Zoom meeting that he he it was like

(25:21):
his own meeting or something. And I remember going through a
few meetings and I'll be honest,I logged into one and it was
like, you know, 3, like you, youknow how Zoom meetings can be.
I won't even. OK.
But like, I was like, this is not the meeting for me.
This is not the meeting for me. And then I came on and he was
like, hey, friend, you know. And it was just like, oh, shit.
I'm seeing. Yeah, yeah.
And then and I like attention. So it was nice to be seen.

(25:46):
And and then he sent me. He literally sent me a big book
and a 12 and 12. And he signed both of them, like
not just sign, but put like a whole block.
And I still look at that sometimes, you know?
And. Yeah.
And it really. Yeah.
I mean it. Yeah.
So it was it. It saved your life.

(26:07):
Yeah. It saved my life, I mean.
Yeah, in my opinion, yeah. I can say the same thing, right?
Like I, I don't know where I washeaded, right.
I, I had thought about not beinghere anymore.
I had, I hadn't really planned it out until my last relapse.
And I wouldn't even say planned it out, but honestly, and mine
was the same thing. I remember looking, I'm on the
35th floor of my building and I remember in this last relapse,

(26:30):
kind of like sitting on the couch and like just, I kind of
just like imagined what it wouldbe like to fall.
This is going to trigger some people, but just to fall 35.
And I was like, huh, Yeah, I've.Never thought about that before.
That's and that scared the shit out of me.
Yeah. I was like, oh boy, I better,
you know, do some more drugs or or get out of this.
And then so as we do, you know, you do the more drinking and the

(26:53):
more drugs and it just gets worse and worse and but.
That scared the shit out of me. Right.
What? What do they say about change?
It's when the fear of staying the same is greater than the
fear of changing. Yeah, that's that.
Was what kind of drove me as I, I was just like, like every day
is the same, you know, And actually my first couple, first

(27:14):
six months, I listened to a lot.I, I always loved 9 inch Nails
'cause I'm like a keyboard guy and he made keyboards kind of
cool almost. And but there.
But then I realized, like a lot of the lyrics, like somewhat
Damaged is a, is a song from, from, from 9 Inch Nails.
And it's all about like how alcohol's not working anymore.

(27:36):
Like it 'cause it worked for a while.
And then, you know, I won't try to quote this song, but you
know, it's tried so hard to be like you all alone and where
were you? And it's, it's, it's all about
like, it got me to this place where I was alone and it used to
feel warm and safe, like everything else about life was

(27:56):
terrifying. And then I'd go home and I'd sit
in front of my computer and I'd start drinking and I'd feel like
finally I'm safe. This is my happy place.
And then all of a sudden my happy place just became like, it
just, it wasn't like there'd be a moment, you know, where you
feel it touch your lips and you're like, oh, everything's
going to be fine. And you know that feeling too,
when you're on your way to the liquor store and you already

(28:18):
feel like all your problems havebeen solved.
It hadn't. It didn't, I don't think it had
anything to do with the chemical.
It was just this like act of like, I give up alcohol's in
charge, you know, and it's goingto solve all my problems.
And it really didn't. And, and yeah, I was just like,
I can't. And there's so many times I was

(28:39):
like, oh, I've got to stop. And I remember telling my
therapist once, yeah, you know what?
Like Tuesday I ordered a meal from Uber Eats and I only
ordered 1 old fashion and I had that drink and everything was
fine and I went to bed. So I'm like, not an alcoholic.
And she was like, well, what about the other six days of the
week? I'm like, well, let's not get
into like, come on, like, why doyou have to be so negative?

(29:02):
You know? Yeah, like, like, like this is
proof N = 1 and I'm fine. And that's I, I anyway, I was
not fine. Yeah.
So we're really good at. Forgetting all the bad, it's
always like I cut the movie off right when I do the first line
and then I forget about the, youknow, or I'm having that one
drink at the bar and then I leave out the the after hours

(29:24):
club by myself dancing for six hours or whatever the fuck I was
doing. I had a friend of mine, Billy,
used to always say and thank youfor bringing that up 'cause I
had not thought about that for awhile.
This, this anticipation of getting, you know, even though
my thing was drugs, your thing was drinking.
I can totally relate. And my friend Billy said one
time I used to love just the weight of the six pack, like

(29:45):
just the, the, the weight of it.And for me, it was just having
the coke in my hand. I just just having it in my hand
alone. I was like.
And then you do. It and it's just all downhill
from. Me.
Right. How the fuck did I, how did you
untrain that? How did I untrain that?
Like. How I guess my thought with that

(30:07):
is, 'cause that has to be unlearned, right?
Like you have to unlearn that pattern of good time, alcohol in
my hand. You know what I mean?
A safety. Alcohol in my hand.
I think for me it was I had to replace it with good, good
behaviors, right? Good associations, yeah.
Man, I don't know. I oh God, I don't want to talk

(30:34):
about my 50th birthday because it involves going out on a date
and that went horribly wrong andnot drinking after and but I
remember walking into my my house after.
I guess I'm going to talk about it.
Fuck, that's why I love you. All right, so.
I'm like, I'm, I'm 50 years old,I'm turning 50.

(30:56):
I've gotten a year of sobriety, I guess, yeah, a little bit over
a a year anyway, like not very much.
And I've got a job too like I got this job as like some like
it was like a, a, a fancy job that I thought like my ego
thought like this is great making a lot of money.

(31:17):
Don't really know what I'm doing.
I'm stressed out all the time. And, and then and I had this, I
met somebody that she was in my building.
She was a lot younger and, and not in the program or anything
like that. And she was like, and, and we
were kind of like friends, but whatever.

(31:37):
And she's like, I'm going to take you out for your birthday
and she takes me out for the birthday.
And then there was just this thing.
God, I'm not even going to basically she was just like I
got, I know you're sober and like I really want to know more
about this because I'm struggling.
And I was just like, I was like,like the one thing that I did

(31:59):
that was probably slightly honorable was I was like, people
that are in personal relationships with you really
shouldn't be like, like, like, Ican show you where to find like
a program. But like, you know, I'm, I'm
kind of biased here because like, we're in we're in a
relationship. And so like, you need to find
somebody, ideally a woman that can help you get through this

(32:21):
kind of stuff. And she kind of got that.
And then she went upstairs to the bathroom and she came back
down and she's like, yeah, I'm going to go out to the club, see
you later. And just like left.
And that was the last time I ever spoke to her.
And it was my birthday. And I was kind of bummed out
because like, you know, I had a lot of expectations about how my
birthday was supposed to go. And none of them.
And I remember coming home and being like, well, this is a

(32:43):
pattern that I used to follow, which is like, I tried to like
go out in the world and meet someone and be real.
And it didn't work out. And then I went home and I and I
drank myself to sleep because poor me, poor me.
And look like I tried, I tried really hard.
And I, I remember I called like four or five guys that night
because I'm like, yeah, this is a danger zone.

(33:07):
Luckily, the LCB OS had closed by the time I got home.
But, you know, I was also at thekeg when it happened.
So like, I was lucky. But yeah, like these patterns of
behavior of like feeling sorry for myself and then making and
then drinking. So I still feel sorry for myself
all the time. I'm kind of hoping that'll go
away one day, but yeah. So yeah, that was a pivotal.

(33:33):
Moment though for you, right like I think a lot of us have
these moments where it's like I was very close to relapsing and
I didn't because I called 4 guysor I you know I and that I think
you answered my question where it's like well what do you do
instead? I was taught to reach out for
help when I'm spiraling, and that's not me.
I don't normally do that. That's not my fucking default

(33:54):
mode. No, my default is Band-Aid.
Quick fix. Yeah, quick.
You know, Yeah, whatever. Yeah, luckily.
It was so extreme. And these are the things too,
like there's the wow, like this is not a good situation.
I'm really going to need some help.
It's it's the like, it's the, you know, you look at the big
book. It's like the the milk and the

(34:14):
whiskey. It's the little things that can
really fuck with you because youyou're like, I got this.
Yeah. So there's seemingly.
Insignificant problems or plans that you have.
I always talk about the, yeah, the the ADHD medication thing
that yeah. And it always stems.

(34:35):
In my opinion, my experience from these rationalizations,
these justifications that no, no, I'm doing the right thing,
Anthony, you're good, buddy. Just keep on, keep on going on,
right? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So I do feel obliged to report
that my 51st birthday was amazing.
It was fantastic. Saw Metallica.

(34:57):
Nice. Wow.
Yeah. And.
And I spent time with with someone that's pretty important
to me and and it's completely different kind of relationship.
So, you know, that was that was kind of awesome.
Yeah. It was a good birthday.

(35:17):
Yeah. What would you say are?
Your daily kind of essentials for recovery to stay sober.
So my morning cigarette, no, that's probably not.
But The thing is, is that, and Ido like all right now I get up

(35:39):
in the morning and I have a little checklist that I follow
because my sponsor gave it to meand it's just a little
mindfulness exercise. It takes like 2 minutes.
Just like, what do I see, what do I hear?
What do I smell? What do I touch?
I'm OK. I put my hand on my chest to say
I'm OK, I'm safe and I'm loved. And then I I just take a moment

(36:03):
to like think about that. Am I am like yeah I am.
I'm good, I'm good today. Take a deep breath, like feel my
toes on the ground and then I deserve a high 5.
Why? Oh and also what am I feeling?
How do I feel? Oh my God, fuck feelings.
Like I remember, like my therapist used to always anyway,

(36:23):
sorry, I'll I'll stay on, I'll stay on the point.
So I'll think about it. I'm like, how am I feeling?
Like, oh, oh, I feel, I feel grateful.
OK, cool, you know. And it's always isn't always
great. Like sometimes I'll feel sad,
like OK, you feel sad. That's OK.
But checking in with my feeling.And then it's like, OK, 37 and

(36:43):
11. And it's like I usually go to a,
a morning meeting, a men's meeting.
But even if I don't, I kind of look up and I'm like, all right,
what are we doing? I, I call, I call my higher
power Janice sometimes just to fuck with people, 'cause I like
to piss Christians off. So I apologies, I don't want to
cause any like, but it's just 'cause like, I just like to be

(37:05):
an argumentative asshole sometimes and make people go
like, what? But I'll be like, yeah, OK, hi.
And I'll talk to, to God for like a minute or two just to be
like, yeah, you're in charge, not me.
And then, yeah, I'll usually go through the, the third step, 7th

(37:26):
step and 11th step prayer. And, and then I get on with my
day. I, I used to spend like an hour,
an hour and a half fucking around trying to make sure I was
getting my morning routine rightand would drive me bananas.
It's perfectionism. Oh my.
God. And now it's just like, look
like, let's try to get through this within 20 minutes and get

(37:47):
up, get going. Because like, I don't want to
sit staring at my navel for too long because I'll drive myself
fucking Batty. And then usually I'll take my
dog for a walk and get outside, get outside, hold that thought.
I have to take a. Piss sure I.
Was just thinking as I. As I did that, that beats all
the amount of times I used to goto the bathroom for the reasons

(38:08):
I used to go to the bathroom. I thought new one knew, but
yeah. So you, you do that, you start
your day. What does what does what does
spirituality mean to you? And and how do you like what?
What does that mean? Oh, boy, I, I actually don't, I

(38:35):
don't know. I don't know if there's somebody
like in charge of the universe or for me, I know that I'm not
in charge of the universe. That's pretty important.
And also like thinking about like the enormity of the
universe, like like there's likewhat, 7-8 billion?

(38:58):
I don't know how many billion people we got now, but there's,
there's probably at least a couple.
There's a lot of people, so thisidea of like somebody up there,
like, you know, looking down on a cloud or whatever and I don't
know, I don't know. I here's a couple of things that
have really helped me when I'm really struggling in the

(39:20):
morning. When I'm really struggling in
the morning, a lot of times it'sthe morning where I'm like, God,
like I'm really struggling with this, you know, and like I went
to bed and I woke up and it's still on my mind and I quiet, I
just like get quiet. And I've, I've kind of said my
prayers or maybe I can't even wait.
And it's just like, OK, listen, what should you do?

(39:43):
And then I'll, I'll know, like they'll say like, you know, it
like you're going to be OK, everything's fine.
Well, what should I do? And like, it will kind of, it's
very simple. It'll come to me like, OK, this
is what I should do. This is the thing that I should
do. And.
So that voice is very helpful. Also, I mean, I'd be remiss not

(40:07):
to like use some sort of weightlifting metaphor at least
once and like this talk because like, you know, I've worked out
a couple times the, the, the let's try to keep this as as
much focused on my program and not my own ideas as I can, which

(40:29):
is really hard because you're asking me and I, I'm like so
full of myself and I love to sound smart.
And I think that's the point is it's the path for me to my
higher power is through the program that I work.
It's through service. It's through connecting with a

(40:51):
sponsee. And it's like training wheels
for finding like my higher power.
It's like, look, if I'm really struggling, I'll go to a meeting
and I'll try to listen to the readings and I'll try maybe just
to listen. And then I'll find the things I
need to help guide me through the day.
Yeah. So I really, I love when people

(41:15):
like, what do you what's what's,what's who's God and how's that
work? I'm like, oh, goody, goody.
Let's have like, it's like it doesn't fucking matter, like my
philosophy and reading about like consciousness and all, like
I study AI for fun. Like I'm not saying that to
brag. I'm like, that's how complicated
I can make life. Like, I'll use AI to figure out

(41:36):
like, what's the best restaurantin Toronto when I could just
like use Yelp, you know, like I'm, I'm, I overcomplicate every
fucking thing. And one thing that helps me is
like, you know, when you're trying to drive a car, it really
helps to not try to like work onthe car at the same time.
So if you give yourself over to the care of a higher power and

(41:59):
you say like, it's going to carefor me, you don't need to like
try to figure out what it is while you're asking for care.
You can just accept it. And I was listening to these
speaker tapes, Joe and Charlie, and I was going to this meeting
on the East side. This is a long, this is like a
year and a half ago. And they were like, you know

(42:20):
what, just what kind of higher power do you want to have?
And I was like, you mean, you can have whatever you want.
And I'm like, I'd like a kind higher power that loves me and
sees that I'm just doing my fucking best.
And I sometimes it's really scary and, and I just want
somebody that makes me feel likeI'm OK and everything's going to
be fine. And they're like, OK, well,

(42:42):
boom, there you go. And I asked the higher power,
like, what should I do? And they're like, well, you're
on the way to a meeting, but you're kind of hangry.
Maybe you should stop and get a sandwich.
And I stopped at a Subway and got a sandwich and the guy
offered me free bacon. I shit you not.
And I was like, there is a God and he wants me to have bacon.
So I was just like, I'm in, I'm in, you know, And that's like,

(43:05):
and that worked. And I went to the meeting.
I was really happy because like I, I need carbs to be happy.
But you know, it's it's. Interesting.
It's sort of like 'cause I heardit said, you know, higher power
is like an inner teacher, right?An inner teacher where it's like
it's kind of this guiding force for me, but it's also like my
consciousness at the same time, right?

(43:25):
And I agree with you 100%. The more I try to figure it out,
the worse it is for me and the more stressed I get about it.
And then the more the less I listen to it as well and and
follow the direction that I'm given.
I don't need to understand it today.
I can make it into this like detective movie, you know,
whodunit, like yarn connecting all the people, you know, you

(43:46):
know that that's the way I can make it.
And it sounds like you can do the same thing.
But the more I just kind of acknowledge that it's
everywhere, it's everything. It speaks through people.
And also I know what the right answer is.
Sometimes I just need to listen.And that's why meditation is.
It escapes me, but it's also themost beneficial thing.

(44:09):
And that's why I love that morning group where for 15
minutes, Anthony, you're gonna follow some direction.
Just listen to the guided meditation and let life happen.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and, and, and a lot of times too, like I'll try to just
listen to people, but I forgot to do the the weightlifting

(44:32):
metaphor. You know, you talked about the
inner teacher. Like The thing is in the gym,
like when I go to the gym and I do a bunch of squats, I'm not
getting stronger while I'm doingthe squats.
I'm actually getting weaker. Like I'm breaking down muscle
tissue. And those little micro tears are
where new proteins, new proteinscan come in and they can

(44:54):
reconstitute the muscle strongerwhen I let go and let God.
And when I say I don't need to figure it out, I'm letting my
brain and like, sorry, when thathappens is when you're resting,
when you're when you're not squatting, when you go home and
you sit on the couch and you watch Netflix, that's when that
happens. So when I say I don't understand

(45:15):
it, I'm going to sit quietly, I'm going to turn my brain off
and then I'm going to wait. That's the opportunity for God
to come in and kind of influencelike improve the way my brain
works slightly. And I, and that's what I'm
noticing. Like I turn the brain off, it
rests and then it comes back andit's like, I got a great idea.

(45:37):
Why don't you just do your dishes and while you're doing
your dishes, just actually pay attention to the dishes.
Like, oh, well, that won't solveall my problems.
No, but it will solve 1. Like your dishes will be done
and you won't get in shit when the dishes are not OK.
I'm not even. I love that though.
Yeah, I know it's true. And then in the process of doing
it, you're just like, you're notthinking about one more problem.

(46:00):
Oh, no, yeah. Yeah.
And I, yeah, yeah. Because I've had it pointed out
to me by somebody who actually cares about me.
Although I can understand why that can be frustrating
sometimes. I'm very sorry.
I feel like. OK.
Anyways, you know, like sometimes I'm like, I'm 8

(46:21):
problems ahead and I'm not really paying attention and you
know, the spoons aren't actuallygoing to get cleaned if they're
all jammed in the front of the dishwasher.
That doesn't work. So taking the time to do things
properly. But I really want to like use a
metaphor from computer science, please.
What? I love metaphors.

(46:41):
OK, so. In, In computer science, there's
two ways to store sets of data fundamentally.
And one's called an array and the other's called a linked
list. An array is when you set aside a
certain amount of memory, you say you're like, OK, I got 1010
variables. I'm going to set aside 10 places
and they're all going to have a number 12345678910.

(47:03):
And then we're going to put information whether that's like
the, the provinces of the capitals of the provinces,
Canada, you store them, you put them in an array.
And I really hope I can pull this metaphor off.
We'll see. A linked list is literally like
I have a thing and I'm going to put in information in that
thing, and then I have a link tothe next thing and a linked

(47:24):
list. You can build an infinitely long
list with a linked list, sort oflike branches.
Yeah, Yeah. It's like, well.
Then there's a tree. But OK, let's not do a tree for
me. Sometimes when I start in the
day, my brain is an array. It's got like, I've filled the
whole brain with all these ideasand then I've got this like list
of the numbers to find all the different information.
And the problem with arrays is that they take up a lot of space

(47:46):
and they're computationally intensive to to work through.
So if you can put it into a linked list.
And my point is, a linked list is what's the next right thing?
Next right thing is do the dishes.
What are you going to do after that?
I don't know. Maybe I'll call my sponsor.
OK, so like, let's go to the next thing.
Boop, we're doing that. And the thing after that, yeah,
sure. Maybe you want to remember that.

(48:07):
What the next thing is after, fine, it's the next thing.
Everything after that will be revealed and that's the most
efficient. Like if you actually look at
like computer science, like fundamentally the most efficient
way to store information is in linked list.
It's just one thing at a time. What's the next thing?
Boop. Now we're at the next thing.
Now we're at the next thing. And everything more complicated

(48:28):
than that I try to avoid becausethen my brain just starts to
heat up. Yeah.
And I get. I love that, man.
It's like. I'm not gonna think about the
next thing until I'm done said thing.
Yeah. Right.
And once I'm done said thing, then I can start thinking about
what's next. Yeah, I can really.
Thank you. I can benefit from that.
I think a lot of people can benefit from that, though.
And the way you're describing, what was the first one called

(48:49):
again? An array?
Array. The way you're describing.
An array to me looks like that large spacious graph of so many.
Ah yeah, where do I start? There's a million.
Things on my wall right now. Then it's overwhelmed.
Yeah, and overwhelm is just a sign of fear, Yeah.
So yeah, I try to avoid the array and you.
Know I think a lot of men would argue this but I think it's been

(49:10):
proven that we cannot multitask at all efficient like humans
they can't multitask right. You're someone listening to bit
I could do fucking two things atonce, right?
But you So to that to my point. My point is I can't do two
things the same way with the with the resolve, with the
intention, with the the. The same way I can do.

(49:31):
That one thing really well. It's better to do one thing
really well than 10 things moderately or not well.
Yeah, well. And and the other thing about
that is that OK, well, in computer science too, like this
called overclocking and multi processor.
So in multi processing, you can have a multi processor that's

(49:54):
like multiple things happening at the same time.
But the but the but the, the operating system you need to
actually set that up is incredibly complicated.
And when you're multi processing, you actually end up
burning more resources than if you just had four computers that
were each doing one of those processes.
So like it's not efficient. And the thing I notice when I'm

(50:17):
just like, I'm doing the dishes and then I'm doing the next
thing is that I'm calm and relaxed throughout the day,
which is a lie. I just get, I get crazy no
matter what, but but I get I'm calmer and, and Bill Murray said
like there's not a lot of thingsyou can't do that you can't do
better when you're relaxed. And I try, it's really hard.

(50:39):
I struggle all the time. But if I can be relaxed, then I
do a better job of the dishes. I program, I can program a
computer more effectively. I can have a conversation with
the human more effectively. And when I get done, I don't
feel tired. And so, yeah, for me, like I
love caffeine and I love the rush of like, I'm getting so

(51:00):
much shit done. Like I love it and I still do
it. But when I noticed that that's a
struggle for me, I try to go, OK, like, how do I slow down,
you know? And it's so important to it.
Leads into the beautiful one dayat a time mantra that I, you
know, have it on my bracelet. Sometimes I forget to look at
it, but it's like tomorrow is none of my concern.

(51:24):
It doesn't even exist, right? All I have is today and people
hate hearing that. I hated hearing it.
I still hate hearing it, but it's true.
Like, what am I doing today for my recovery?
Yesterday's recovery is not going to keep me sober today.
What am I doing today, yesterday, today and tomorrow?
Which? Is I love that reading and I got
I really have to put this huge disclaimer on this of like I am
so full of shit right now. Like I I I always like I that

(51:45):
I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.
It's all going to work out and I'm going to win.
And and it's like, yeah, that's my default and it's always going
to be there. And like I get into that and I'm
like, oh God, I'm doing it again.
The difference is I used to see that and I would beat the shit
out of myself for having done that.
And now I'm like you're and I still do beat the shit out of
myself. Like I am nowhere near perfect.

(52:06):
Like anybody that knows me knows.
Like there's the Tom that talks about this program and then
there's the Tom actually workingas fucking program.
And those are two completely different people.
But the one thing I'm trying to do is laugh at myself and like
the people around me that I really respect and I and I reach
to when I'm struggling or just like, I like spending time with,

(52:26):
they make fun of me. And, and I like that, you know,
like in a, in a, in a joking, loving way because I need to
make fun of myself because I am crazy and the program helps me
stay sane. But like, it's OK that I'm
crazy, you know, like you can laugh.
You gotta laugh. Yeah.
I heard someone once. Say in a meeting that they they

(52:48):
could tell how good their program was, how how strong
their program was by how much they were able to not take
themselves so seriously, How howmuch they were able to just
laugh at themselves. Right.
It's important. And because the, you know, when
you take things too seriously, yeah, you drive yourself into
the ground. And then you have, you know, you
end up drinking again eventually, right?
Maybe not right away. You're on the way.

(53:10):
Yeah, and it's funny too. Because like, I used to like
quote, like I'd, I'd have a bunch of like army sayings and
shit, like I was like the worst soldier ever.
Like, you know, like, well, that's a little harsh.
I actually, but I have no business walking around being
like slow as smooth and smooth as fast, you know, just like in
the teams, like I'm like, shut the fuck up.
But but God, what was I going to?

(53:33):
I totally forgot what I was going to say.
Now see. So like, yeah, I'm totally in,
in, in like bullshit territory. Ego.
Yeah, no. Oh, yeah.
That's what it was. So, you know, one of the things
like that, I did hear, 'cause I,I actually got to hang out with
some guys that were pretty good soldiers and they'd be like, you
know, like, not a lot of shit's worth getting stressed out for.

(53:54):
This is just a Tuesday. And you hear this on a lot of
different professions where people have experience and
they're also like really fuckinggood at what they do.
Is there unflappable? Like, shit will happen and
they'll just be like, yeah, thisisn't that bad.
It's it's really not that bad. Roll all the punches.

(54:15):
Yeah, and being able to. Like that, that perspective of
like this isn't really that bad,allows you to stay calm and
actually make good decisions. And that is something I saw with
guys that were really good at that being in the Army was they
were calm no matter what, you know, Grace under pressure.

(54:36):
Yeah. They weren't like, yeah.
Let's kick the door in and like,no, no, that was more me.
I was just. I think it's the difference
between. Acting in emotion and acting in
logic too, right? Sometimes it's when I acted in
emotion, you know, some I'm getting punched, right?
Eventually I'm getting punched out.
Yeah, yeah, someone's. Getting hurt and it's.
Probably going to be me. It always, actually, yeah, I'm

(54:57):
always getting hurt emotionally or physically.
I think I'm going to hurt the other guy more, but I end up
being hurt just as much or enough, if not worse, Right?
Yeah, yeah. Let's end with this.
If you could go back and say something to your alcoholic,
addicted, active, addicted self,what would you say?

(55:17):
Hi. Go to a meeting.
Yeah, I would say, you know, God, I would say it's OK, it's

(55:38):
OK that you give a shit and thatyou care so much about this and
every, everything around you. Because that was the problem
wasn't that I didn't care about people.
It was that I felt like I would,every time somebody would hurt
me or something wouldn't go the way I wanted, I get I really
cared about the things that I did.
And then they wouldn't work out the way I wanted and I would get

(55:58):
angry. There's nothing wrong with
caring about your life and wanting to help people because a
lot of times I wanted, I really wanted to just help people.
What's that? It's it's what do you do with
those emotions when things don'tgo the way you thought they
should go? How do you find the stoicism of

(56:21):
like letting go? And that I was always looking
for an instruction manual to life.
And that manual is the big book.That's the answer for that was
the answer for me of how do I, how do I keep caring about
people? How do I keep showing up without

(56:42):
having my heart ripped out and without feeling like this anger
and the self-centered fear all the time.
And I just had to read the fucking book.
And yeah, so I, yeah, but that passed page 125.
I think I might know that because that came up yesterday.

(57:06):
Like our all of these, all of the suffering that we went
through becomes our greatest strength.
So I don't know, I guess like, it's nice to say, yeah, maybe
I'd go back in time and fix things, but like, I don't know
if I'd really want that kind of responsibility.
Yeah. Love it.
Thanks so much. Tom, I appreciate you, buddy.

(57:27):
Thanks man. Thanks for listening.
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(57:48):
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