October 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Today i sat down with Melanie Matthews, BSW, MSW, RSW Director of Clinical Programs at Canadian Addiction Treatment Centres
Melanie Matthews is a registered social worker with BSW and MSW degrees. She takes a collaborative approach to therapy and uses a person-centered approach while maintaining empathy and a non-judgemental stance.
Melanie has worked in social services and mental health since 2010 in several different areas of practice including residential treatment programs, educational settings, and not-for-profit organizations.
She uses primarily Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT), Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), and Dialectical Behavioural Therapy (DBT) in her work. She often works with youth and adult clients experiencing a range of issues, including depression, anxiety, and personality disorders.
Melanie co-authored a paper titled “A Review of Mental Health Services Offered by Canada’s English Language Universities“, which investigated the availability of mental health services offered to postsecondary students on campus compared to known prevalence rates of mental health issues.
She has also written a number of reports regarding best practices for youth serving programming offered by not-for-profit organizations across Ontario. She continues to engage in research and knowledge dissemination as a vehicle for advocacy and social justice.
Are you or a loved one struggling to find the right path to recovery? This episode dives deep into the world of addiction treatment and long-term sobriety.
Host Anthony speaks with Melanie, an addiction professional with personal recovery experience, about navigating the complex choices between virtual programs, outpatient care, and inpatient rehab. They discuss why some people relapse, what daily essentials help sustain long-term recovery, and how to choose the right treatment center.
This conversation also unpacks the difference between supporting and enabling a loved one, the role of families in recovery, and what to look for in public vs private treatment centers. Melanie also shares insights on medication-assisted recovery (like naltrexone and other emerging therapies), and how to stay connected to community and self-care.
Find her here
https://canatc.ca/biographies/melanie-matthews/
Subscribe for honest, practical advice and real recovery stories to inspire hope and healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
Podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and
addiction. I'm so glad you're here.
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
alcohol, please reach out for help.
Send me a message on all social media platforms at Recovering
Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com.
(00:26):
You are no longer alone. Thanks so much, Melanie for
coming on. I appreciate you.
(00:49):
So you are currently in recoveryand you're also you work at
Canadian Addiction Treatment Centres, CATC.
Do you want to describe a littlebit about what you do 1st and
maybe how you got into that rule?
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
So like you said, I'm in recovery myself.
I used opioids as a teenager, ended up getting addicted to
(01:13):
Oxycontin in kind of the height of the opioid epidemic in the
early 2000s, which was not a great time, not a great time,
Wouldn't recommend it. So I ended up because of the of
my experiences with addiction and homelessness and, and a
number of other things, I decided to become a social
(01:33):
worker and I actually had reallyno intention of working
specifically in addictions. I wanted to work with youth, I
wanted to work with youth who had experienced abuse or
homelessness and addiction kind of comes along with that, but
that was never really my actual intended focus.
I ended up taking a job at CATC in their virtual outpatient
(01:54):
program at the beginning of the pandemic, mostly just because I
was looking for something extra to do on the side and ended up
really, really liking it. And I found that it was just
kind of a niche that worked wellfor me.
I was able to use my experience to be able to help other people,
and it was really great. And apparently they thought I
was doing pretty well too, because they've ended up
promoting me into the position of director of clinical
(02:15):
programs. And now I oversee all of the
clinical services that are delivered through our three
inpatient facilities and our Warden virtual outpatient
program. Awesome, so that's Trafalgar is
one of them 1000 islands and I always forget the third one.
Greenstone. Greenstone.
Where's Greenstone? Cimbala Muskoka.
Muskoka OK, Awesome. What was that like working
(02:38):
through the pandemic in in addiction?
I mean, that was not a fun time for a lot of us.
I was somehow managed to stay sober through that.
I still don't really know how I how I did it, but what was that
like for you? Yeah, it was a wild time for
sure, especially because in his infinite wisdom, the premier of
Ontario decided that beer storesand liquor stores were an
essential service. So a lot of people had an awful
(03:03):
lot of time to go out and and get themselves into trouble.
So it was, it was really interesting, especially making
the switch to doing like virtualtherapy because before then I
had always worked in person. I had never done virtual
programming before. So it was really interesting and
we found even though there were lots of challenges to IT, people
had a much harder time staying sober in a virtual program than
(03:25):
they would when they were in an abstinence based inpatient
program for very obvious reasons.
But we also found that it made the services a lot more
accessible and people who otherwise wouldn't come to
treatment ended up getting like treatment from us.
So it was really rewarding in that way too.
But yeah, it was wild. It was a wild time.
How do you discern between whether somebody would benefit
(03:48):
from virtual versus inpatient? Like what's how do you, what are
the kind of metrics or things that you look at?
Well, the the very first thing is that if a person requires
detox, they can't come to a virtual program or at the very
least they're going to have to do their own separate detox
first. You can't be detoxing while
you're in a virtual program. And really the only other like
(04:09):
real requirement is that you have to be able to stay sober on
your own during groups because you can't show up like
intoxicated to any of your, yourindividual sessions or your
group sessions. So really like that's, that's
kind of it. Those are the big determining
factors. If you need to detox, you're
going to have to go somewhere inpatient or to a hospital.
(04:30):
You can't detox on your own in your house or you shouldn't.
Anyways, it's ill advised. And, and if you can stay sober,
then you're, you can be a good fit for virtual treatment.
Also things like just having a safe place to live, you know,
all of that kind of stuff and the available technology.
But really like, that's it. Do you find that a lot of people
(04:51):
sort of make the connection thatmay be outpatient, like I'll try
outpatient because I'm not readyto commit to.
I've been to three rehabs and let me tell you, like I did not
have a good experience. Looking back now, of course it
was something I needed in my life, but while I was there, it
was tough, right? It was hard.
I needed it. It saved my life.
(05:13):
I guess my question is, do you find that people start with
outpatient and ever sort of no, I I need to be in in treatment
and that's the path for me. Do you find that happens?
It does happen sometimes. There's a lot of people who will
call in like to our admissions line and they really don't want
to come to inpatient because really people don't generally.
It's not fun. It's not a vacation, you're away
(05:34):
from your family. You have to commit to it.
It costs a lot of money. And so a lot of times people
really don't want to come to inpatient.
That's their last resort. So when they hear that we have a
virtual outpatient programs, they're like, yeah, sign me up
for that, of course. And then we have to determine
whether or not they're a good fit for it or if they really do
need to go to inpatient. So yeah, like that is honestly
(05:55):
the the default. A lot of the times people don't
want to commit to inpatient, butit's really what they need.
So our our admissions team does a really good job of being able
to talk people through that and,and help them to understand the
benefits of inpatient treatment.Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, as I'm sure you know, and I, I was the master of
excuses myself, but I have a job, I have kids, right?
(06:18):
All these things. And it's like, yeah.
But you know, sometimes you wishyou'd, you could just show them
like you wouldn't have any of that.
You're, you know, your sobriety has to come first in my
experience, or I can't be a husband, I can't be a dad,
right? But it's, it's very difficult in
my experience to make that connection, especially with new
(06:38):
people that are just coming in. I mean, I was stubborn myself,
right? So it's, it's difficult to show
somebody their future. But I mean, maybe it's not
always the case, right? What, what are you finding
people are coming in with a lot now in terms of class of drugs.
Are you seeing a lot of gamblingaddiction now with the the
(06:59):
newest, you know, the legalization of, of sports
betting in in Ontario? What are you seeing?
Yeah, we see like a real diversity of the things that
people are coming in with, but we are definitely seeing a lot
more complexities. Rarely are we having people
coming in with straightforward like, you know, I, I drink too
much. Often there's some sort of
(07:20):
comorbid mental health issue going on as well.
Or we are seeing, as you were saying with the gambling, a lot
more behavioral addictions as well.
So it's not just I came in because I drink too much.
It's it came in because I drink too much and then I started
doing some cocaine with it and then I was having a really good
time doing that. So now I'm getting into
gambling. So like we are seeing a lot more
(07:41):
complexities like that. And yeah, gambling's definitely
on an upswing as well. And just as things become more
normalized to talk about, we, wesee a lot more of them too.
Sex and love addiction is something that's also something
we're really seeing a lot more of now, and particularly among
people who also use like stimulants and stuff as well.
(08:01):
Yeah, there's a lot of heightened sexual desires with,
with, with the stimulants. Yeah, I, I, I definitely, you
know, I've heard about a lot about that in the recovery
community. I talked to a lot of new, you
know, addicts and Alcoholics that are trying to make the, the
decision to better, you know, to, to stop doing what they're
doing and, and take a different approach to the way they manage
(08:23):
their feelings and the way they manage, you know, their lives
really. And that, that comes up a lot,
right? I, I hear that a lot.
So. Yeah, often people don't even
recognize that that's something that's a problem for them until
they come in and start talking about it.
It's something I'll credit our team with a lot at CATC.
Is that like just the, the non judgement that they're able to
have for clients really kind of opens that up.
(08:46):
Like we're not here just to talkabout your substance abuse
problem. We can talk about all of the
problems that are going on and often things like sex addiction
will surface within those conversations.
We're rarely having people come in saying I'm struggling with
sex. Instead, they'll come in with
the substance abuse issue and then end up kind of realizing
that there's something else going on here as well, and
(09:08):
there's an opportunity to address it.
Yeah. Sort of this peeling back the
layers of the onion, right? Exactly.
Yeah, it's certainly I'm still doing that, you know, but that
was a big part of of rehab was able to my treatment center
experience was able to to do that along with arm me with the
tools to deal with life on life's terms.
Right. In your opinion, what do you
(09:32):
think the the people that relapse and then the people that
go on to to put together some, you know, solid long term
sobriety? What do you think the two
differences are with the people that like, why?
Why, in your opinion, do people relapse and why do they what
what allows them to put togetherthat long term sobriety?
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's lots of different factors.
(09:54):
Some of it is just readiness. A lot of times people are kind
of pushed to come into treatmentwhen maybe they're not quite
ready yet. And that's why we often see
people coming for multiple stays.
Maybe the first time they were coming in because of some
external factor, you know, my wife or my husband was going to
divorce me if I didn't do something.
So I'm just here to appease them.
And, and obviously there's a lotmore risk of relapse when a
(10:15):
person is not fully committed toit.
Another thing that I would say is, is really important is like
family support, family and friends, because addiction is
really a family issue. It's a, it's a whole issue that
the entire family has to deal with because there's reasons
that a person became addicted tosomething.
And so we have to address kind of that root cause.
(10:37):
So if the family's also not getting their own help, they're
really not able to support theirloved ones, they return home.
So it's it's really important that everyone in the family is
getting help in order to set that person for long term
success. Yeah, one of the hardest things
that my mother and my wife really had to come to was in the
beginning, at least now they're they're accepted, is that, you
(10:59):
know, they played a role. They didn't cause it, they can't
cure it and they can't control it, right.
But they, there was a rule in the family dynamic that hey,
maybe you need to get some, someof your own recovery too, your
own support too. That was, that was a hard my, my
therapist always says she's in recovery as well.
She always says that her biggeststruggle is getting the family
(11:22):
members to buy in and do their own healing, their own recovery
right. Yeah, absolutely.
And often we see that among lotsof family members too.
Like I come from a whole family of Alcoholics.
And unfortunately my my parents and my sister are not in
recovery. And so I don't have much of a
relationship with them now because they really don't
understand why I'm not engaging in in that stuff anymore.
(11:45):
So it is really unfortunate whenpeople don't recognize that they
played a role or that they may even be struggling with an
addiction themselves. How do you deal with that?
That's I feel like a lot of people have to deal like how do
you deal with a loved one in addiction in your life?
I mean, it's it's sad and I've definitely breathed the
relationship with my mother in particular because it's
(12:06):
something that I really wanted was to have a good relationship
with her. But it's just not something
that's achievable right now. And so, yeah, if I've breathed
that relationship a lot and of course did my own therapy as
well. So that's something that you
have to come to an understandingthat some people are just not
willing to recover, and it's notwithin my control to change
(12:26):
that. I'm awesome.
What would you say is maybe what's the most challenging part
of your role, your job, and whatis your favorite part about it?
That's a great question. I'd say the most challenging
part of my job is probably really boring.
I, I do a lot of like the policylevel work.
(12:49):
So I don't, I don't get to spenda whole lot of time with the
actual clients anymore. Instead, I'm on the back end
reviewing all of the policy and,and like, it's a really
important job. And I think that it's one that I
am probably uniquely well suitedto do because I did work
frontline for so long as well. And I have seen the devastating
impacts of poor policy, like in in particular, I used to be a
(13:13):
shelter worker and as a result of one of our policies following
one of our policies, somebody died.
And so I think that it's incredibly important and I take
a great amount of responsibilityin making sure that our policies
are appropriate and that they'rebeing followed and carried out
really well. But like, it's also really
boring and I don't, I don't loveit.
So I would say that that's probably the most challenging
(13:36):
part of my job is just getting through the work every day.
But but the most rewarding thingis, even though I work totally
remote and I don't actually get a whole lot of contact with
clients anymore, I do still get to go on site occasionally.
And I still I do still get to run groups as well as a part of
training our staff. So I really love being able to
go on site and still run a really great psycho Ed group or
(13:59):
process group and really see thebenefits of that programming and
the way that people react to it.So that's definitely my favorite
part of the job is still just doing some of the frontline
clinical work. I.
Love it. What's what's a group that you
like to run or that you think isreally beneficial?
Because I used to love those, those process groups, not all of
them, but I used to love them. I, I love process groups.
(14:20):
I love them so much. I, I don't particularly like
working from a script and a lot of psycho Ed groups are, are
really scripted and, and they have to be, nobody can memorize
all of that information. And so like they have to be
pretty scripted. There's worksheets, whatever.
So like they're good. They have good information, but
I love a good process group. I love it when the group really
(14:42):
starts vibing and everyone's able to have a great discussion
and you can see when people start to have breakthroughs in
those groups. So I think that is the funnest
and most rewarding one. It's challenging to people have
like a lot of emotional responses to it, but like that's
the work that has to be done in treatment to see a real change.
And so I love seeing that happen.
I love a good process group. Yeah, I agree.
(15:05):
And sometimes they go in completely different directions
than you assume they would. And that's when, yeah, the magic
really happens. You know, the lights kind of
turn on in someone's eyes. And I love that.
That's one of my favorite parts about recovery is working with
other addicts and seeing that light kind of come on and
knowing today that I didn't 'cause that, but I was able to
be sort of a conduit, you know, of what I call my higher power
(15:28):
into carrying the message of recovery, right.
Yeah, yeah, I, I love being in those groups as well too,
because you take a bit of a different role as a facilitator
in a process group, right? Like I'm, I'm not there
lecturing everyone. I'm not instructing people, I'm
not teaching them something. Instead, we're all just learning
from each other. And so I feel like it's
appropriate for me to also put some of myself into those groups
(15:51):
too. So clients that I work with,
they know I'm in recovery. That's something that I'll share
during those process groups as well.
I'll use my own experience to beable to help people with making
seen those breakthroughs. And so I, I really like that as
well. I feel like it's a really unique
way as a clinician to be able towork with people is sharing my
own recovery. Yeah, sort of adds that, that
(16:12):
site that, that, you know, new added layer of, of trust and,
you know, the lived experience. Yeah.
It's like I didn't suffer for nothing, right.
You know, there's a, a piece of recovery literature.
We were just talking about this before I I jumped on here with
another fellow in recovery whereit's like, you know, one day my
struggles, my trials, my tribulations will be of maximum
(16:36):
use to others, right? I, I will be able to use it.
It'll be an asset going forward.And you know, when I first came
in, if you told me that I would have screamed in your face and
told you to F off, right. But I've, I've found that to be,
you know, extremely true today. Yeah, I've I've definitely found
that to be the case as well. It's it's incredibly rewarding
(16:56):
to have someone be able to say that my experiences have
positively impacted them. Still would have preferred to
not go through the experience ofaddiction, but at least if I had
to do it, like coming out on theother side and having it be
worth something, I think it's really meaningful.
Yeah, I want to talk about modalities of recovery because
this has been coming up a lot for me lately, especially now
(17:18):
that I've, you know, I, I try tokeep anonymity and, you know,
respect the principles of the program that I'm in.
But I find that there's a lot ofpeople out there, at least on
the Internet, and I know this isdangerous, but that that kind of
don't really vibe well with the main modality of recovery, which
is 12 step. And when I say main, I just mean
(17:39):
the most popular. I, I think what are the
different modalities of recoverythat you sort of arm people with
when they go to, they leave treatment.
And yeah, I guess just talk about what, what, what do you
offer for people? What are, what are the different
modalities? Yeah.
So we include 12 step programming in our facilities as
(17:59):
well. I think it is really important
that people be exposed to that because for the people it works
for, it works really, really well.
And then for some people it justdoesn't.
I did not do well with 12 step. That was the first thing I tried
when when I was looking to do something about my addiction and
I had a terrible experience, probably because the group that
I went to was in my extremely small town and the facilitator
(18:23):
running it was celebrating I think his tenure shift that day.
I was like, my friend, I saw yousmoking crack last weekend.
So like it just didn't, it didn't resonate because it
didn't feel real, probably because it wasn't.
So 12 step. It's great.
It's great for some people, It'snot great for everyone's.
We use a variety of different things.
One of the big things that we dofor people when they leave our
(18:47):
programming is we we have to do our own aftercare.
So we continue offering group programming and individual
counseling to people for at least six months after they
finish treatment with us. And we find that that's really
important for people to be able to translate the skills that
they learned in treatment back into their home environment.
Otherwise, we're just plopping them down in the exact same
(19:07):
situation that they were in before.
Yeah. See you later.
Yeah. Yeah.
Good luck. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's really easy.
I always say this, but it's really easy to stay sober in
treatment from my experience. It's when I leave that that's
when the work begins and and I get out of that bubble and, you
know, life starts to happen. How are you going to cope with
it now, buddy? Right.
(19:28):
Yeah. What about.
Yeah, what about like. So what are other recovery
programs outside of yours that people can jump into that are,
you know, something like SMART Recovery or, I don't know if you
refuge recovery is another one. What are some of those?
Yeah, SMART Recovery is a reallygood option for people who kind
of aren't into the whole higher power aspect of 12 step
(19:51):
programming. So it's it's a really good
option for people. We found that that especially
vibes a little bit better with them, like Indigenous clients
who just really don't care for, you know, the the more.
It's not religious, it's not meant to be religious, but it's
often interpreted as like the religious aspect of 12 step
programming. But like the other things that
(20:13):
we look for people to get into is it's typically like
behavioral therapy based programs.
So often we'll find that people who had a significant amount of
trauma and that's what led them to their addiction, they might
want to leave and do a DVT program.
And you can do those privately or like Cam H has a DVT program
that has a massively long wait list because it's very good.
(20:34):
But like anything behavioral therapy based, it's going to be
really helpful for people as well.
So we encourage them to continueon with their own treatment
afterwards. The and so I, I, you know, you
brought up Cam H, which is, I don't know, are they full?
They're fully government funded,or partially.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you talk to I guess the
biggest I always try to tell people I'm like, because they
(20:56):
always, you know, people will ask me is government funded
good, right? Is it good treatment in Canada?
And I never like to say it's good or bad, right?
It's just different. In your experience, what is the
major difference between privatefunded treatment and public
funded government funded? Yeah, frankly, it's weightless.
No matter where you go, what program you go into, whether
(21:17):
it's private or public, the the specific approach that they use
in that facility or, or that program is either going to work
for you or it won't. They're all very, very
different. And so you can't like really
objectively say like for profit is different than government
funded in these ways. They're all based on on
different things and they're going to be successful with some
people and unsuccessful with others.
(21:38):
Really the biggest difference isthat the government funded stuff
often has really, really long wait.
Less like the program I referenced through Cam H huge
wait list for their DBT program and even seeing a psychiatrist,
like you can see a psychiatrist through KMH for free.
It's wonderful, but you're goingto have to wait.
And so it's not, it's not ideal for people who are looking to
(22:00):
get help right now. So that's the big advantage of
any of the the for profit placesis that you know, if you have
the money for it, you can come and get treatment as soon as you
want it. You can pick up the phone today
and talk to our admissions line and be at our facility.
Honestly probably still right now because it's like 2:30 in
the afternoon as we're recordingthis.
If you called us right now at 2:30 in the afternoon, we could
(22:23):
admit you tonight. So I mean, that's that's a huge
advantage to people who really want help right now.
How do you, I always, I always wonder this with, with, you
know, social workers, therapiststhat have the their own recovery
programs. How do you sort of separate the
(22:43):
two because you know, you get a lot of recovery out of out of
parts of your job, right, That probably benefit you, I would
assume, and your recovery. How do you sort of separate the
two? Like I, I, I need to practice my
recovery over here and then I have my work and professional
over here. Yeah, it is really important to
keep those separate because as much as I said, you know, just a
(23:06):
few minutes ago that when I'm running across this group, so I
like to bring a bit of myself into it, I'm still a
facilitator. So like I shouldn't be relying
on that group to support my recovery.
That's not the place for it. I'm getting paid to be there.
It's it's not for me. So as much as I receive benefits
from it, it can't be my only thing.
It can't be what I'm relying on.So I, I continue my own therapy
(23:27):
as well. And I have my own routines, my
own things that I do to maintainmy own peace and in order to be
able to continue my recovery as well.
So they are, they do have to be very separate because my job is
my job and I have to make sure I'm prioritizing the clients.
And then in my own home life, then, you know, that's my time
to be able to practice my recovery.
Yeah, I love that. And and that leads me into my
(23:49):
next question too. And what is what are your daily
essentials for staying sober? Hmm, a healthy routine is
honestly the biggest thing for me.
That's when I would really go kind of off the rails is when my
routine is no good. If I allow myself to, you know,
you know, stop going to work if I let myself not, do, you know,
(24:11):
daily exercise. If I was, you know, just willing
to start eating out in pubs and stuff again, like that's, that's
when my recovery is not going tobe going so well anymore.
So for me, it was the establishment of a daily routine
and that's what my maintenance is for being able to stay sober.
Obviously when I was in really early recovery, it was a lot
more than that, you know, therapy that I had to do,
(24:32):
avoiding certain locations, a lot of relapse prevention stuff.
But now it's more just maintaining the healthy
lifestyle that I've built. But I've been in recovery for
about 15 years, so I've had sometime to build that recovery
routine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Another thing that keeps coming up lately for me is these sort
(24:56):
of, I almost want to say shortcuts, but they're not
shortcuts like medically assisted medication, assisted
modalities to get sober. IE.
I don't know, you're seeing a lot of studies about Ozempic and
cravings helping that, you know,helping alcohol cravings as well
as naltrexone for being, you know, a suitable option for a
(25:19):
lot of people. I guess my question is what are
you seeing that's been effectivein terms of medication to assist
people and what what do you think the future holds for that?
What do you think that looks like?
I. Think there's great potential
for, you know, medication to be really helpful in people's
recovery. I think the problem is when we
(25:41):
start seeing it as the solution instead of a tool Like anti
craving medication is definitelygoing to be helpful for you in
your recovery if that's something you need.
If, if cravings are the biggest reason that you relapse, then
yeah, anti craving medication isgoing to be a really good idea
for you. But it can't be the only thing
if you're relying on that medication.
Then I mean, what happens if you're, if your amount runs out
(26:04):
and you can't get a refill rightaway?
You've got to have tools to be able to continue that recovery.
So we, it has to be seen as thatas just a tool and not the
entirety of your recovery. I think that's where we got into
a lot of trouble with methadone as well.
We had all of those methadone clinics open up and people
started seeing methadone as being the replacement for any
sort of opioid addiction and then just had a bunch of people
(26:27):
addicted to methadone, which wasalso not a great drug.
So I think it we just need to see these things as a tool.
Methadone is not bad, Methadone clinics are not bad, but it's
not super helpful when we start seeing it as a solution.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the term liquid
handcuffs comes up because I've heard that from, I've never, you
(26:49):
know, I never struggled with, I never really liked opioids too
much. Thank God.
I was more of a stimulant guy. But you know, from the people
that I know that have been addicted to opiates and have
gone on the methadone program, I've heard that it's the most
difficult drug to come off of and to get clean from.
(27:10):
Yeah, and. The withdrawals are really bad
too. Yeah, I'm glad I never relied on
that one. I guess luckily, and also
unluckily at the same time again, I was in a really small
community and that just wasn't available.
Like that wasn't a thing that that we had.
And so, yeah, I never ended up on methadone because it just
wasn't available to me. How, how did you kick opiates?
(27:33):
How did you get sober? What did that look like?
I'm going to jump back a little bit.
Yeah, You know, I don't think myrecovery journey was the typical
one that people go down. So I I really didn't get a whole
lot of help at first. I I was addicted to opioids as a
teenager. I ended up being expelled from
high school and, you know, just kind of spiraled into like
(27:54):
homelessness and just a bunch ofother really problematic
behaviors. And, and I don't know, it was
just some determination, I think, to get my life back on
track. I saw all of my friends kind of
moving on with their lives and doing things that I wanted to be
able to do and and I just kind of lost access to my dealer as
(28:15):
well because I ended up moving to a new city to, you know, try
to do a little bit better for myself and I didn't have it
anymore. So as much as that is ill
advised to detox at home on yourown, that's what I did.
I detoxed on the floor of my apartment and then I ended up re
enrolling in school and got a bunch of help through there too.
(28:35):
Therapy. I had really wonderful guidance
counselor who helped me a lot and I got a job and I got back
on track. And then I did years and years
of trauma therapy, which was kind of the the most helpful
thing because that was one of the reasons that I really, I got
involved in opioids because I was in pain.
I was in pain from the trauma that I had experienced.
(28:57):
And it just kind of made some strange logical sense that I'm
in pain, so I should just take apainkiller and it'll make
everything better. And it did, until it didn't
anymore. When, when life sort of happens
to you today and you know, you get, you get into, I'm sure
you've had your fair share of adversity over the 15 years.
(29:20):
How do you, how do you get through that?
Like what do you, what do you doto sort of navigate adversity
today? Well, for me, it's just not an
option to go back to opioids. Now I have, I have a three-year
old daughter and that's just notsomething that I can, you know,
that I could possibly sacrifice is my relationship with her in
order to go back to that. And so at this point, they rely
(29:43):
on the skills that I learned in the therapy that I did.
And I also have a really great supportive group of friends.
It's like I said, family supportis one of the really good
indicators of whether or not a person will be successful in
recovery. And I don't have that because my
family's not in recovery. So instead I've replaced that
with, you know, really excellentgroup of friends who hold me
(30:05):
accountable and who are there for me.
So that's really what I do. It's it's a combination of me
not being willing to sacrifice the things that I work for and
also a really great group of people who hold me accountable
and make sure that I'm using my skills to be able to stay sober.
Yeah, I love that. I I couldn't agree more.
The recovery community for me has been so essential.
(30:26):
And that's why when I started this podcast, you know, the main
goal is to stay sober myself. Every time I sit down with
somebody in recovery, even not even somebody that's not, you
know, just working on themselvesand not in recovery, I get so
much. I learned so much out of how to
cope and how to, you know, deal.And and also when I'm listening
to someone else, I'm not thinking about Anthony for for
that, you know, amount of time, which is a beautiful thing,
(30:48):
right? What if somebody's listening
right now and they have a loved one that, you know, can't seem
to put together some time of, ofsobriety, recovery, can't stop
using drugs, can't stop drinking?
What What's some really important advice that they could
get in in terms of how to deal with a loved one in addiction?
(31:09):
I would really recommend to thatperson that they receive their
own support and and from someonewho really understands addiction
as well. So, you know, you can go to just
any therapist, but not just any therapist is going to know
anything about addiction. It's not actually something, I
don't know if people know this, It's not actually something that
you're automatically taught in school.
(31:32):
I had in my undergraduate degree, when I did my
undergraduate social work degree, there was one option for
an addictions course, but it wasan elective and was a very
popular elective. So I didn't even get into it.
None of my formal education in social work has included
addictions treatment. That was something that, you
(31:52):
know, from my own personal experience and also just the
training I did on my own outsideof outside of school is what
made me able to be able to help people who are in addiction.
And so I, I would say that that's what the family members
really need because they need tounderstand how they're
contributing to their loved onesaddiction.
Are they enabling? Do they have unclear boundaries?
(32:14):
What, what are they doing? Because they can only address
the things that are within theirown control.
They're not going to be able to force their loved 1 to get
sober, but they can certainly work on the things that they are
doing to contribute to it and also receive their own support
as well. Because it's hard.
It's hard to watch someone love going through addiction.
So that's the biggest thing thatthat I would recommend is that
(32:35):
they seek their own support froma person who is specialized in
addictions. What's the difference in your
opinion between enabling and supporting?
It's such a fine line, like it is such a fine line.
And it's, it's hard to know whenyou've crossed that line because
often we see like financial stuff is something that that can
(32:58):
cross the line very easily into enabling.
So like, what's the difference between making sure your loved
one is safe and enabling them tocontinue their addiction?
And it's a different line for everyone.
And so I mean, it's, it's something that they have to
determine on their own. And a lot of it is whether or
not the person is now reliant onyou for your addiction.
(33:18):
So asking yourself, if I didn't give them this thing, this
money, this, this support, this whatever, would they be able to
engage in their addiction? And if the answer is no, then
you're enabling them. Love that.
Yeah. It's, it's pretty.
It's, it's, it's a lot easier tounderstand when you're, when you
look at it in a kind of, you know, black and white context,
(33:40):
right? Am I preventing them from
experiencing the natural consequences of their addiction?
Right. That was the way I was taught.
And if you can, yeah, if you cansay yes, I'm preventing the
natural consequences, then it's in some degree I might be
enabling. Them, yeah, I would agree with
that 100%. So OK so my loved one has a
(34:03):
problem. They've agreed to go to a
treatment center. Where do I start?
How do what do I look for in a treatment center?
Where do I go from here? Yeah, there's there's lots of
different options out there. So I mean, the first thing they
can do is just call them, pick up the phone and and get some
information about the treatment that that particular facility
(34:23):
offers. And, and, and it's going to look
different from everyone. Can you afford it is one if
you're going to lose your house in order to send your loved one
for, you know, treatment, then that's probably not setting them
up for success when they return home.
So can you afford the facility that you've chosen?
Is it accessible to you? Is your loved one agreeing to
it? All of that kind of stuff is is
(34:45):
what you should look at. And can you continue to support
that person once they return home specifically with their
addiction, not support them for experiencing any consequences?
Yeah, and I mean for me too, in my family, the one thing that
was always driven home was to make sure that they're licensed
(35:06):
and accredited. I think that that was a big
thing. You know, you've heard some
horror stories about treatment centres in Ontario that have
closed down as a result of not being licensed and accredited.
And I've found that. So I, I didn't know this, but I
was a part of a Accreditation Canada meeting.
The other, I would say a couple weeks ago from the treatment
centre that I attended, the lasttreatment center that I
(35:29):
attended, and I didn't know thatthey do this.
I thought it was really cool, the accreditation Canada, it's
that little red and white logo. They actually interview past
clients and past family members of treatment centres to see what
the program was like, you know, what it, what it, what the
positives were, what the negatives were.
And I thought that was really interesting because what, what
better way to find out about a treatment center than to ask
(35:51):
someone that had attended it andask a family member that had
attended the family program, right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's cool.
And yeah, that is something you want to look for for sure.
That's CATC. We're accredited by CARV, which
don't, don't ask me what the acronym stands for, I can never
remember. But we're accredited through
CARV and it is a hugely in depthprocess.
(36:11):
Like they come in, they inspect our sites, they look at all of
our programming, they look at our policies, they look at
everything to make sure that nothing is slipping by and that
what we're offering is a good ethical service.
And yeah, you want to look for like licensed clinicians as
well, too, because they're beingheld accountable by a college to
make sure that they're practicing in a way that's
really ethical as well. And there's oversight.
(36:34):
So you know that they're not just going to do something and
and get away with it. If it's unethical, There's
there's a way for them to be held accountable and that's
really important. I agree.
OK, let's let's end with this. I learned a lot today.
Thank you. If you could go back and say
something to your active addicted self, what do you think
(36:56):
you would say? I think I would just want to
assure myself that it gets better from here because a lot
of the time the reason that I wasn't motivated to do anything
about the addiction or about thecircumstances that I found
myself in was because I didn't really have any belief that I
was going to get better from there.
I felt very, very hopeless. So I think I would just want my
(37:18):
my past self to know that it canand it will get better.
Yeah. I mean, the first step is always
putting up your hand, right? I need help.
And then when somebody in my experience puts their hand back
out, it's like, I gotta, I gottatake the step, right?
The first step, Yeah, I appreciate you, Melanie.
Thank you so much for coming on.And I learned a lot today.
(37:39):
Yeah, not a problem at all. Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
informational and motivational purposes only.
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
(38:00):
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health.
Professional, you are no longer alone.
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
Podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and
addiction. I'm so glad you're here.
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
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Send me a message on all social media platforms at Recovering
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(00:26):
You are no longer alone. Thanks so much, Melanie for
coming on. I appreciate you.
(00:49):
So you are currently in recoveryand you're also you work at
Canadian Addiction Treatment Centres, CATC.
Do you want to describe a littlebit about what you do 1st and
maybe how you got into that rule?
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
So like you said, I'm in recovery myself.
I used opioids as a teenager, ended up getting addicted to
(01:13):
Oxycontin in kind of the height of the opioid epidemic in the
early 2000s, which was not a great time, not a great time,
Wouldn't recommend it. So I ended up because of the of
my experiences with addiction and homelessness and, and a
number of other things, I decided to become a social
(01:33):
worker and I actually had reallyno intention of working
specifically in addictions. I wanted to work with youth, I
wanted to work with youth who had experienced abuse or
homelessness and addiction kind of comes along with that, but
that was never really my actual intended focus.
I ended up taking a job at CATC in their virtual outpatient
(01:54):
program at the beginning of the pandemic, mostly just because I
was looking for something extra to do on the side and ended up
really, really liking it. And I found that it was just
kind of a niche that worked wellfor me.
I was able to use my experience to be able to help other people,
and it was really great. And apparently they thought I
was doing pretty well too, because they've ended up
promoting me into the position of director of clinical
(02:15):
programs. And now I oversee all of the
clinical services that are delivered through our three
inpatient facilities and our Warden virtual outpatient
program. Awesome, so that's Trafalgar is
one of them 1000 islands and I always forget the third one.
Greenstone. Greenstone.
Where's Greenstone? Cimbala Muskoka.
Muskoka OK, Awesome. What was that like working
(02:38):
through the pandemic in in addiction?
I mean, that was not a fun time for a lot of us.
I was somehow managed to stay sober through that.
I still don't really know how I how I did it, but what was that
like for you? Yeah, it was a wild time for
sure, especially because in his infinite wisdom, the premier of
Ontario decided that beer storesand liquor stores were an
essential service. So a lot of people had an awful
(03:03):
lot of time to go out and and get themselves into trouble.
So it was, it was really interesting, especially making
the switch to doing like virtualtherapy because before then I
had always worked in person. I had never done virtual
programming before. So it was really interesting and
we found even though there were lots of challenges to IT, people
had a much harder time staying sober in a virtual program than
(03:25):
they would when they were in an abstinence based inpatient
program for very obvious reasons.
But we also found that it made the services a lot more
accessible and people who otherwise wouldn't come to
treatment ended up getting like treatment from us.
So it was really rewarding in that way too.
But yeah, it was wild. It was a wild time.
How do you discern between whether somebody would benefit
(03:48):
from virtual versus inpatient? Like what's how do you, what are
the kind of metrics or things that you look at?
Well, the the very first thing is that if a person requires
detox, they can't come to a virtual program or at the very
least they're going to have to do their own separate detox
first. You can't be detoxing while
you're in a virtual program. And really the only other like
(04:09):
real requirement is that you have to be able to stay sober on
your own during groups because you can't show up like
intoxicated to any of your, yourindividual sessions or your
group sessions. So really like that's, that's
kind of it. Those are the big determining
factors. If you need to detox, you're
going to have to go somewhere inpatient or to a hospital.
(04:30):
You can't detox on your own in your house or you shouldn't.
Anyways, it's ill advised. And, and if you can stay sober,
then you're, you can be a good fit for virtual treatment.
Also things like just having a safe place to live, you know,
all of that kind of stuff and the available technology.
But really like, that's it. Do you find that a lot of people
(04:51):
sort of make the connection thatmay be outpatient, like I'll try
outpatient because I'm not readyto commit to.
I've been to three rehabs and let me tell you, like I did not
have a good experience. Looking back now, of course it
was something I needed in my life, but while I was there, it
was tough, right? It was hard.
I needed it. It saved my life.
(05:13):
I guess my question is, do you find that people start with
outpatient and ever sort of no, I I need to be in in treatment
and that's the path for me. Do you find that happens?
It does happen sometimes. There's a lot of people who will
call in like to our admissions line and they really don't want
to come to inpatient because really people don't generally.
It's not fun. It's not a vacation, you're away
(05:34):
from your family. You have to commit to it.
It costs a lot of money. And so a lot of times people
really don't want to come to inpatient.
That's their last resort. So when they hear that we have a
virtual outpatient programs, they're like, yeah, sign me up
for that, of course. And then we have to determine
whether or not they're a good fit for it or if they really do
need to go to inpatient. So yeah, like that is honestly
(05:55):
the the default. A lot of the times people don't
want to commit to inpatient, butit's really what they need.
So our our admissions team does a really good job of being able
to talk people through that and,and help them to understand the
benefits of inpatient treatment.Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, as I'm sure you know, and I, I was the master of
excuses myself, but I have a job, I have kids, right?
(06:18):
All these things. And it's like, yeah.
But you know, sometimes you wishyou'd, you could just show them
like you wouldn't have any of that.
You're, you know, your sobriety has to come first in my
experience, or I can't be a husband, I can't be a dad,
right? But it's, it's very difficult in
my experience to make that connection, especially with new
(06:38):
people that are just coming in. I mean, I was stubborn myself,
right? So it's, it's difficult to show
somebody their future. But I mean, maybe it's not
always the case, right? What, what are you finding
people are coming in with a lot now in terms of class of drugs.
Are you seeing a lot of gamblingaddiction now with the the
(06:59):
newest, you know, the legalization of, of sports
betting in in Ontario? What are you seeing?
Yeah, we see like a real diversity of the things that
people are coming in with, but we are definitely seeing a lot
more complexities. Rarely are we having people
coming in with straightforward like, you know, I, I drink too
much. Often there's some sort of
(07:20):
comorbid mental health issue going on as well.
Or we are seeing, as you were saying with the gambling, a lot
more behavioral addictions as well.
So it's not just I came in because I drink too much.
It's it came in because I drink too much and then I started
doing some cocaine with it and then I was having a really good
time doing that. So now I'm getting into
gambling. So like we are seeing a lot more
(07:41):
complexities like that. And yeah, gambling's definitely
on an upswing as well. And just as things become more
normalized to talk about, we, wesee a lot more of them too.
Sex and love addiction is something that's also something
we're really seeing a lot more of now, and particularly among
people who also use like stimulants and stuff as well.
(08:01):
Yeah, there's a lot of heightened sexual desires with,
with, with the stimulants. Yeah, I, I, I definitely, you
know, I've heard about a lot about that in the recovery
community. I talked to a lot of new, you
know, addicts and Alcoholics that are trying to make the, the
decision to better, you know, to, to stop doing what they're
doing and, and take a different approach to the way they manage
(08:23):
their feelings and the way they manage, you know, their lives
really. And that, that comes up a lot,
right? I, I hear that a lot.
So. Yeah, often people don't even
recognize that that's something that's a problem for them until
they come in and start talking about it.
It's something I'll credit our team with a lot at CATC.
Is that like just the, the non judgement that they're able to
have for clients really kind of opens that up.
(08:46):
Like we're not here just to talkabout your substance abuse
problem. We can talk about all of the
problems that are going on and often things like sex addiction
will surface within those conversations.
We're rarely having people come in saying I'm struggling with
sex. Instead, they'll come in with
the substance abuse issue and then end up kind of realizing
that there's something else going on here as well, and
(09:08):
there's an opportunity to address it.
Yeah. Sort of this peeling back the
layers of the onion, right? Exactly.
Yeah, it's certainly I'm still doing that, you know, but that
was a big part of of rehab was able to my treatment center
experience was able to to do that along with arm me with the
tools to deal with life on life's terms.
Right. In your opinion, what do you
(09:32):
think the the people that relapse and then the people that
go on to to put together some, you know, solid long term
sobriety? What do you think the two
differences are with the people that like, why?
Why, in your opinion, do people relapse and why do they what
what allows them to put togetherthat long term sobriety?
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's lots of different factors.
(09:54):
Some of it is just readiness. A lot of times people are kind
of pushed to come into treatmentwhen maybe they're not quite
ready yet. And that's why we often see
people coming for multiple stays.
Maybe the first time they were coming in because of some
external factor, you know, my wife or my husband was going to
divorce me if I didn't do something.
So I'm just here to appease them.
And, and obviously there's a lotmore risk of relapse when a
(10:15):
person is not fully committed toit.
Another thing that I would say is, is really important is like
family support, family and friends, because addiction is
really a family issue. It's a, it's a whole issue that
the entire family has to deal with because there's reasons
that a person became addicted tosomething.
And so we have to address kind of that root cause.
(10:37):
So if the family's also not getting their own help, they're
really not able to support theirloved ones, they return home.
So it's it's really important that everyone in the family is
getting help in order to set that person for long term
success. Yeah, one of the hardest things
that my mother and my wife really had to come to was in the
beginning, at least now they're they're accepted, is that, you
(10:59):
know, they played a role. They didn't cause it, they can't
cure it and they can't control it, right.
But they, there was a rule in the family dynamic that hey,
maybe you need to get some, someof your own recovery too, your
own support too. That was, that was a hard my, my
therapist always says she's in recovery as well.
She always says that her biggeststruggle is getting the family
(11:22):
members to buy in and do their own healing, their own recovery
right. Yeah, absolutely.
And often we see that among lotsof family members too.
Like I come from a whole family of Alcoholics.
And unfortunately my my parents and my sister are not in
recovery. And so I don't have much of a
relationship with them now because they really don't
understand why I'm not engaging in in that stuff anymore.
(11:45):
So it is really unfortunate whenpeople don't recognize that they
played a role or that they may even be struggling with an
addiction themselves. How do you deal with that?
That's I feel like a lot of people have to deal like how do
you deal with a loved one in addiction in your life?
I mean, it's it's sad and I've definitely breathed the
relationship with my mother in particular because it's
(12:06):
something that I really wanted was to have a good relationship
with her. But it's just not something
that's achievable right now. And so, yeah, if I've breathed
that relationship a lot and of course did my own therapy as
well. So that's something that you
have to come to an understandingthat some people are just not
willing to recover, and it's notwithin my control to change
(12:26):
that. I'm awesome.
What would you say is maybe what's the most challenging part
of your role, your job, and whatis your favorite part about it?
That's a great question. I'd say the most challenging
part of my job is probably really boring.
I, I do a lot of like the policylevel work.
(12:49):
So I don't, I don't get to spenda whole lot of time with the
actual clients anymore. Instead, I'm on the back end
reviewing all of the policy and,and like, it's a really
important job. And I think that it's one that I
am probably uniquely well suitedto do because I did work
frontline for so long as well. And I have seen the devastating
impacts of poor policy, like in in particular, I used to be a
(13:13):
shelter worker and as a result of one of our policies following
one of our policies, somebody died.
And so I think that it's incredibly important and I take
a great amount of responsibilityin making sure that our policies
are appropriate and that they'rebeing followed and carried out
really well. But like, it's also really
boring and I don't, I don't loveit.
So I would say that that's probably the most challenging
(13:36):
part of my job is just getting through the work every day.
But but the most rewarding thingis, even though I work totally
remote and I don't actually get a whole lot of contact with
clients anymore, I do still get to go on site occasionally.
And I still I do still get to run groups as well as a part of
training our staff. So I really love being able to
go on site and still run a really great psycho Ed group or
(13:59):
process group and really see thebenefits of that programming and
the way that people react to it.So that's definitely my favorite
part of the job is still just doing some of the frontline
clinical work. I.
Love it. What's what's a group that you
like to run or that you think isreally beneficial?
Because I used to love those, those process groups, not all of
them, but I used to love them. I, I love process groups.
(14:20):
I love them so much. I, I don't particularly like
working from a script and a lot of psycho Ed groups are, are
really scripted and, and they have to be, nobody can memorize
all of that information. And so like they have to be
pretty scripted. There's worksheets, whatever.
So like they're good. They have good information, but
I love a good process group. I love it when the group really
(14:42):
starts vibing and everyone's able to have a great discussion
and you can see when people start to have breakthroughs in
those groups. So I think that is the funnest
and most rewarding one. It's challenging to people have
like a lot of emotional responses to it, but like that's
the work that has to be done in treatment to see a real change.
And so I love seeing that happen.
I love a good process group. Yeah, I agree.
(15:05):
And sometimes they go in completely different directions
than you assume they would. And that's when, yeah, the magic
really happens. You know, the lights kind of
turn on in someone's eyes. And I love that.
That's one of my favorite parts about recovery is working with
other addicts and seeing that light kind of come on and
knowing today that I didn't 'cause that, but I was able to
be sort of a conduit, you know, of what I call my higher power
(15:28):
into carrying the message of recovery, right.
Yeah, yeah, I, I love being in those groups as well too,
because you take a bit of a different role as a facilitator
in a process group, right? Like I'm, I'm not there
lecturing everyone. I'm not instructing people, I'm
not teaching them something. Instead, we're all just learning
from each other. And so I feel like it's
appropriate for me to also put some of myself into those groups
(15:51):
too. So clients that I work with,
they know I'm in recovery. That's something that I'll share
during those process groups as well.
I'll use my own experience to beable to help people with making
seen those breakthroughs. And so I, I really like that as
well. I feel like it's a really unique
way as a clinician to be able towork with people is sharing my
own recovery. Yeah, sort of adds that, that
(16:12):
site that, that, you know, new added layer of, of trust and,
you know, the lived experience. Yeah.
It's like I didn't suffer for nothing, right.
You know, there's a, a piece of recovery literature.
We were just talking about this before I I jumped on here with
another fellow in recovery whereit's like, you know, one day my
struggles, my trials, my tribulations will be of maximum
(16:36):
use to others, right? I, I will be able to use it.
It'll be an asset going forward.And you know, when I first came
in, if you told me that I would have screamed in your face and
told you to F off, right. But I've, I've found that to be,
you know, extremely true today. Yeah, I've I've definitely found
that to be the case as well. It's it's incredibly rewarding
(16:56):
to have someone be able to say that my experiences have
positively impacted them. Still would have preferred to
not go through the experience ofaddiction, but at least if I had
to do it, like coming out on theother side and having it be
worth something, I think it's really meaningful.
Yeah, I want to talk about modalities of recovery because
this has been coming up a lot for me lately, especially now
(17:18):
that I've, you know, I, I try tokeep anonymity and, you know,
respect the principles of the program that I'm in.
But I find that there's a lot ofpeople out there, at least on
the Internet, and I know this isdangerous, but that that kind of
don't really vibe well with the main modality of recovery, which
is 12 step. And when I say main, I just mean
(17:39):
the most popular. I, I think what are the
different modalities of recoverythat you sort of arm people with
when they go to, they leave treatment.
And yeah, I guess just talk about what, what, what do you
offer for people? What are, what are the different
modalities? Yeah.
So we include 12 step programming in our facilities as
(17:59):
well. I think it is really important
that people be exposed to that because for the people it works
for, it works really, really well.
And then for some people it justdoesn't.
I did not do well with 12 step. That was the first thing I tried
when when I was looking to do something about my addiction and
I had a terrible experience, probably because the group that
I went to was in my extremely small town and the facilitator
(18:23):
running it was celebrating I think his tenure shift that day.
I was like, my friend, I saw yousmoking crack last weekend.
So like it just didn't, it didn't resonate because it
didn't feel real, probably because it wasn't.
So 12 step. It's great.
It's great for some people, It'snot great for everyone's.
We use a variety of different things.
One of the big things that we dofor people when they leave our
(18:47):
programming is we we have to do our own aftercare.
So we continue offering group programming and individual
counseling to people for at least six months after they
finish treatment with us. And we find that that's really
important for people to be able to translate the skills that
they learned in treatment back into their home environment.
Otherwise, we're just plopping them down in the exact same
(19:07):
situation that they were in before.
Yeah. See you later.
Yeah. Yeah.
Good luck. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's really easy.
I always say this, but it's really easy to stay sober in
treatment from my experience. It's when I leave that that's
when the work begins and and I get out of that bubble and, you
know, life starts to happen. How are you going to cope with
it now, buddy? Right.
(19:28):
Yeah. What about.
Yeah, what about like. So what are other recovery
programs outside of yours that people can jump into that are,
you know, something like SMART Recovery or, I don't know if you
refuge recovery is another one. What are some of those?
Yeah, SMART Recovery is a reallygood option for people who kind
of aren't into the whole higher power aspect of 12 step
(19:51):
programming. So it's it's a really good
option for people. We found that that especially
vibes a little bit better with them, like Indigenous clients
who just really don't care for, you know, the the more.
It's not religious, it's not meant to be religious, but it's
often interpreted as like the religious aspect of 12 step
programming. But like the other things that
(20:13):
we look for people to get into is it's typically like
behavioral therapy based programs.
So often we'll find that people who had a significant amount of
trauma and that's what led them to their addiction, they might
want to leave and do a DVT program.
And you can do those privately or like Cam H has a DVT program
that has a massively long wait list because it's very good.
(20:34):
But like anything behavioral therapy based, it's going to be
really helpful for people as well.
So we encourage them to continueon with their own treatment
afterwards. The and so I, I, you know, you
brought up Cam H, which is, I don't know, are they full?
They're fully government funded,or partially.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you talk to I guess the
biggest I always try to tell people I'm like, because they
(20:56):
always, you know, people will ask me is government funded
good, right? Is it good treatment in Canada?
And I never like to say it's good or bad, right?
It's just different. In your experience, what is the
major difference between privatefunded treatment and public
funded government funded? Yeah, frankly, it's weightless.
No matter where you go, what program you go into, whether
(21:17):
it's private or public, the the specific approach that they use
in that facility or, or that program is either going to work
for you or it won't. They're all very, very
different. And so you can't like really
objectively say like for profit is different than government
funded in these ways. They're all based on on
different things and they're going to be successful with some
people and unsuccessful with others.
(21:38):
Really the biggest difference isthat the government funded stuff
often has really, really long wait.
Less like the program I referenced through Cam H huge
wait list for their DBT program and even seeing a psychiatrist,
like you can see a psychiatrist through KMH for free.
It's wonderful, but you're goingto have to wait.
And so it's not, it's not ideal for people who are looking to
(22:00):
get help right now. So that's the big advantage of
any of the the for profit placesis that you know, if you have
the money for it, you can come and get treatment as soon as you
want it. You can pick up the phone today
and talk to our admissions line and be at our facility.
Honestly probably still right now because it's like 2:30 in
the afternoon as we're recordingthis.
If you called us right now at 2:30 in the afternoon, we could
(22:23):
admit you tonight. So I mean, that's that's a huge
advantage to people who really want help right now.
How do you, I always, I always wonder this with, with, you
know, social workers, therapiststhat have the their own recovery
programs. How do you sort of separate the
(22:43):
two because you know, you get a lot of recovery out of out of
parts of your job, right, That probably benefit you, I would
assume, and your recovery. How do you sort of separate the
two? Like I, I, I need to practice my
recovery over here and then I have my work and professional
over here. Yeah, it is really important to
keep those separate because as much as I said, you know, just a
(23:06):
few minutes ago that when I'm running across this group, so I
like to bring a bit of myself into it, I'm still a
facilitator. So like I shouldn't be relying
on that group to support my recovery.
That's not the place for it. I'm getting paid to be there.
It's it's not for me. So as much as I receive benefits
from it, it can't be my only thing.
It can't be what I'm relying on.So I, I continue my own therapy
(23:27):
as well. And I have my own routines, my
own things that I do to maintainmy own peace and in order to be
able to continue my recovery as well.
So they are, they do have to be very separate because my job is
my job and I have to make sure I'm prioritizing the clients.
And then in my own home life, then, you know, that's my time
to be able to practice my recovery.
Yeah, I love that. And and that leads me into my
(23:49):
next question too. And what is what are your daily
essentials for staying sober? Hmm, a healthy routine is
honestly the biggest thing for me.
That's when I would really go kind of off the rails is when my
routine is no good. If I allow myself to, you know,
you know, stop going to work if I let myself not, do, you know,
(24:11):
daily exercise. If I was, you know, just willing
to start eating out in pubs and stuff again, like that's, that's
when my recovery is not going tobe going so well anymore.
So for me, it was the establishment of a daily routine
and that's what my maintenance is for being able to stay sober.
Obviously when I was in really early recovery, it was a lot
more than that, you know, therapy that I had to do,
(24:32):
avoiding certain locations, a lot of relapse prevention stuff.
But now it's more just maintaining the healthy
lifestyle that I've built. But I've been in recovery for
about 15 years, so I've had sometime to build that recovery
routine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Another thing that keeps coming up lately for me is these sort
(24:56):
of, I almost want to say shortcuts, but they're not
shortcuts like medically assisted medication, assisted
modalities to get sober. IE.
I don't know, you're seeing a lot of studies about Ozempic and
cravings helping that, you know,helping alcohol cravings as well
as naltrexone for being, you know, a suitable option for a
(25:19):
lot of people. I guess my question is what are
you seeing that's been effectivein terms of medication to assist
people and what what do you think the future holds for that?
What do you think that looks like?
I. Think there's great potential
for, you know, medication to be really helpful in people's
recovery. I think the problem is when we
(25:41):
start seeing it as the solution instead of a tool Like anti
craving medication is definitelygoing to be helpful for you in
your recovery if that's something you need.
If, if cravings are the biggest reason that you relapse, then
yeah, anti craving medication isgoing to be a really good idea
for you. But it can't be the only thing
if you're relying on that medication.
Then I mean, what happens if you're, if your amount runs out
(26:04):
and you can't get a refill rightaway?
You've got to have tools to be able to continue that recovery.
So we, it has to be seen as thatas just a tool and not the
entirety of your recovery. I think that's where we got into
a lot of trouble with methadone as well.
We had all of those methadone clinics open up and people
started seeing methadone as being the replacement for any
sort of opioid addiction and then just had a bunch of people
(26:27):
addicted to methadone, which wasalso not a great drug.
So I think it we just need to see these things as a tool.
Methadone is not bad, Methadone clinics are not bad, but it's
not super helpful when we start seeing it as a solution.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the term liquid
handcuffs comes up because I've heard that from, I've never, you
(26:49):
know, I never struggled with, I never really liked opioids too
much. Thank God.
I was more of a stimulant guy. But you know, from the people
that I know that have been addicted to opiates and have
gone on the methadone program, I've heard that it's the most
difficult drug to come off of and to get clean from.
(27:10):
Yeah, and. The withdrawals are really bad
too. Yeah, I'm glad I never relied on
that one. I guess luckily, and also
unluckily at the same time again, I was in a really small
community and that just wasn't available.
Like that wasn't a thing that that we had.
And so, yeah, I never ended up on methadone because it just
wasn't available to me. How, how did you kick opiates?
(27:33):
How did you get sober? What did that look like?
I'm going to jump back a little bit.
Yeah, You know, I don't think myrecovery journey was the typical
one that people go down. So I I really didn't get a whole
lot of help at first. I I was addicted to opioids as a
teenager. I ended up being expelled from
high school and, you know, just kind of spiraled into like
(27:54):
homelessness and just a bunch ofother really problematic
behaviors. And, and I don't know, it was
just some determination, I think, to get my life back on
track. I saw all of my friends kind of
moving on with their lives and doing things that I wanted to be
able to do and and I just kind of lost access to my dealer as
(28:15):
well because I ended up moving to a new city to, you know, try
to do a little bit better for myself and I didn't have it
anymore. So as much as that is ill
advised to detox at home on yourown, that's what I did.
I detoxed on the floor of my apartment and then I ended up re
enrolling in school and got a bunch of help through there too.
(28:35):
Therapy. I had really wonderful guidance
counselor who helped me a lot and I got a job and I got back
on track. And then I did years and years
of trauma therapy, which was kind of the the most helpful
thing because that was one of the reasons that I really, I got
involved in opioids because I was in pain.
I was in pain from the trauma that I had experienced.
(28:57):
And it just kind of made some strange logical sense that I'm
in pain, so I should just take apainkiller and it'll make
everything better. And it did, until it didn't
anymore. When, when life sort of happens
to you today and you know, you get, you get into, I'm sure
you've had your fair share of adversity over the 15 years.
(29:20):
How do you, how do you get through that?
Like what do you, what do you doto sort of navigate adversity
today? Well, for me, it's just not an
option to go back to opioids. Now I have, I have a three-year
old daughter and that's just notsomething that I can, you know,
that I could possibly sacrifice is my relationship with her in
order to go back to that. And so at this point, they rely
(29:43):
on the skills that I learned in the therapy that I did.
And I also have a really great supportive group of friends.
It's like I said, family supportis one of the really good
indicators of whether or not a person will be successful in
recovery. And I don't have that because my
family's not in recovery. So instead I've replaced that
with, you know, really excellentgroup of friends who hold me
(30:05):
accountable and who are there for me.
So that's really what I do. It's it's a combination of me
not being willing to sacrifice the things that I work for and
also a really great group of people who hold me accountable
and make sure that I'm using my skills to be able to stay sober.
Yeah, I love that. I I couldn't agree more.
The recovery community for me has been so essential.
(30:26):
And that's why when I started this podcast, you know, the main
goal is to stay sober myself. Every time I sit down with
somebody in recovery, even not even somebody that's not, you
know, just working on themselvesand not in recovery, I get so
much. I learned so much out of how to
cope and how to, you know, deal.And and also when I'm listening
to someone else, I'm not thinking about Anthony for for
that, you know, amount of time, which is a beautiful thing,
(30:48):
right? What if somebody's listening
right now and they have a loved one that, you know, can't seem
to put together some time of, ofsobriety, recovery, can't stop
using drugs, can't stop drinking?
What What's some really important advice that they could
get in in terms of how to deal with a loved one in addiction?
(31:09):
I would really recommend to thatperson that they receive their
own support and and from someonewho really understands addiction
as well. So, you know, you can go to just
any therapist, but not just any therapist is going to know
anything about addiction. It's not actually something, I
don't know if people know this, It's not actually something that
you're automatically taught in school.
(31:32):
I had in my undergraduate degree, when I did my
undergraduate social work degree, there was one option for
an addictions course, but it wasan elective and was a very
popular elective. So I didn't even get into it.
None of my formal education in social work has included
addictions treatment. That was something that, you
(31:52):
know, from my own personal experience and also just the
training I did on my own outsideof outside of school is what
made me able to be able to help people who are in addiction.
And so I, I would say that that's what the family members
really need because they need tounderstand how they're
contributing to their loved onesaddiction.
Are they enabling? Do they have unclear boundaries?
(32:14):
What, what are they doing? Because they can only address
the things that are within theirown control.
They're not going to be able to force their loved 1 to get
sober, but they can certainly work on the things that they are
doing to contribute to it and also receive their own support
as well. Because it's hard.
It's hard to watch someone love going through addiction.
So that's the biggest thing thatthat I would recommend is that
(32:35):
they seek their own support froma person who is specialized in
addictions. What's the difference in your
opinion between enabling and supporting?
It's such a fine line, like it is such a fine line.
And it's, it's hard to know whenyou've crossed that line because
often we see like financial stuff is something that that can
(32:58):
cross the line very easily into enabling.
So like, what's the difference between making sure your loved
one is safe and enabling them tocontinue their addiction?
And it's a different line for everyone.
And so I mean, it's, it's something that they have to
determine on their own. And a lot of it is whether or
not the person is now reliant onyou for your addiction.
(33:18):
So asking yourself, if I didn't give them this thing, this
money, this, this support, this whatever, would they be able to
engage in their addiction? And if the answer is no, then
you're enabling them. Love that.
Yeah. It's, it's pretty.
It's, it's, it's a lot easier tounderstand when you're, when you
look at it in a kind of, you know, black and white context,
(33:40):
right? Am I preventing them from
experiencing the natural consequences of their addiction?
Right. That was the way I was taught.
And if you can, yeah, if you cansay yes, I'm preventing the
natural consequences, then it's in some degree I might be
enabling. Them, yeah, I would agree with
that 100%. So OK so my loved one has a
(34:03):
problem. They've agreed to go to a
treatment center. Where do I start?
How do what do I look for in a treatment center?
Where do I go from here? Yeah, there's there's lots of
different options out there. So I mean, the first thing they
can do is just call them, pick up the phone and and get some
information about the treatment that that particular facility
(34:23):
offers. And, and, and it's going to look
different from everyone. Can you afford it is one if
you're going to lose your house in order to send your loved one
for, you know, treatment, then that's probably not setting them
up for success when they return home.
So can you afford the facility that you've chosen?
Is it accessible to you? Is your loved one agreeing to
it? All of that kind of stuff is is
(34:45):
what you should look at. And can you continue to support
that person once they return home specifically with their
addiction, not support them for experiencing any consequences?
Yeah, and I mean for me too, in my family, the one thing that
was always driven home was to make sure that they're licensed
(35:06):
and accredited. I think that that was a big
thing. You know, you've heard some
horror stories about treatment centres in Ontario that have
closed down as a result of not being licensed and accredited.
And I've found that. So I, I didn't know this, but I
was a part of a Accreditation Canada meeting.
The other, I would say a couple weeks ago from the treatment
centre that I attended, the lasttreatment center that I
(35:29):
attended, and I didn't know thatthey do this.
I thought it was really cool, the accreditation Canada, it's
that little red and white logo. They actually interview past
clients and past family members of treatment centres to see what
the program was like, you know, what it, what it, what the
positives were, what the negatives were.
And I thought that was really interesting because what, what
better way to find out about a treatment center than to ask
(35:51):
someone that had attended it andask a family member that had
attended the family program, right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's cool.
And yeah, that is something you want to look for for sure.
That's CATC. We're accredited by CARV, which
don't, don't ask me what the acronym stands for, I can never
remember. But we're accredited through
CARV and it is a hugely in depthprocess.
(36:11):
Like they come in, they inspect our sites, they look at all of
our programming, they look at our policies, they look at
everything to make sure that nothing is slipping by and that
what we're offering is a good ethical service.
And yeah, you want to look for like licensed clinicians as
well, too, because they're beingheld accountable by a college to
make sure that they're practicing in a way that's
really ethical as well. And there's oversight.
(36:34):
So you know that they're not just going to do something and
and get away with it. If it's unethical, There's
there's a way for them to be held accountable and that's
really important. I agree.
OK, let's let's end with this. I learned a lot today.
Thank you. If you could go back and say
something to your active addicted self, what do you think
(36:56):
you would say? I think I would just want to
assure myself that it gets better from here because a lot
of the time the reason that I wasn't motivated to do anything
about the addiction or about thecircumstances that I found
myself in was because I didn't really have any belief that I
was going to get better from there.
I felt very, very hopeless. So I think I would just want my
(37:18):
my past self to know that it canand it will get better.
Yeah. I mean, the first step is always
putting up your hand, right? I need help.
And then when somebody in my experience puts their hand back
out, it's like, I gotta, I gottatake the step, right?
The first step, Yeah, I appreciate you, Melanie.
Thank you so much for coming on.And I learned a lot today.
(37:39):
Yeah, not a problem at all. Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
informational and motivational purposes only.
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
(38:00):
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health.
Professional, you are no longer alone.
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