November 4, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of Recovering Out Loud, Anthony sits down with Alexandra Perry, Director of Business Development for Inpatient and Virtual Programs, and former Executive Director at Trafalgar Addiction Treatment Centres. With over a decade of experience across nonprofit shelters, addiction treatment, and higher education, Alexandra brings a powerful mix of lived experience, leadership insight, and compassion to the conversation.
Together, we unpack:
The real link between workplace stress, burnout, and substance use
Why “recovery is a privilege” for some — and how that must change
The truth about hitting rock bottom and why prevention matters more than ever
How trauma, shame, and silence keep people sick
What organizations can do to create trauma-informed, supportive spaces for employees
This is a raw, human conversation about systemic change, courage, and connection — reminding us all that recovery starts with empathy and asking for help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
Podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and
addiction. I'm so glad you're here.
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
alcohol, please reach out for help.
Send me a message on all social media platforms at Recovering
Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com.
(00:26):
You are no longer alone. So that's why I like doing the
back and forth, like the professionals lived experience
(00:48):
back and forth and then the family side of it.
I always, I always loved doing because my last relapse I was
really, what's the word? I don't want to say humbled, but
I was really, I was humbled, butI was really, my eyes opened to
how much I affected my family, right?
Because they saw it was different for when I didn't have
(01:11):
a solution before, you know, when I was 23 and I had no
solution at all. I had no concept of, I didn't
even know what that word meant. I just thought everybody used
drugs and drank the way I did. And I was going to go on like
that for the rest of my life andsomehow manage it one day,
right? This great illusion that we all
have. So this time around, my family
knew that I had a solution and Iwasn't reaching for it every
day. And I was choosing to live in
(01:32):
Airbnbs and hotels and do all these crazy things.
And so, yeah, so I that's my point with that is I'm very
interested in also too. I get a lot of messages from
family members, more so than addicts I would say.
Yeah, family's a complex one. We can get into that a little
bit there. I can try and be helpful to your
(01:54):
listeners in terms of my own lived experience there.
So or how long have you been sober now?
Now almost 10 months. Amazing.
Yeah, so I had eight years and decided that I was, I had a
secret about something I always talk about.
It's a long story, but essentially I wasn't telling the
truth about what was going on over a year, you know, and I had
(02:15):
these ideas of fixing my body dysmorphia, you know, I so I
started with performance enhancing drugs and steroids.
And every time I say that, it's funny.
People are always like, how doesthat lead to, you know, smoking
meth? And I'm like, well, dude, like
it always starts with one thing,right, where you're like, I'm
not going to tell you about thisthing that I'm, and then this,
(02:36):
it snowballs into like secrets and secrets and secrets.
And then I'm doing Adderall and then next thing I know I'm on
the couch and someone's offeringme to smoke some meth and I'm
like, why not fuck it, right, Why not?
And then, you know, it's very hard to get back in, in, in at
least my situation. But enough about me.
People talk about me all the time.
(02:57):
I want to hear about you. Do they?
Do they? Feel like I'm among a big, big
deal here with Anthony. I could talk about my and.
Recovering out loud. All day.
Thank you. I could talk about myself all
day, but. That's the opposite.
I, I don't struggle talking about myself, but I feel like
every day it's a journey of coming to peace and acceptance
(03:21):
of, you know, my life and experiences.
So thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and share of
it today. Yeah, I'm excited too.
I gotta say I like I absolutely love your passion for this topic
and you know, within meeting youin on the phone, just talking on
(03:41):
the phone for 10 minutes there, like I could just feel how much
this means to you and I'm excited to get into that.
Like, why is it so important to you for one?
And well, why don't you tell us,like, tell everyone what you do
first? OK, I do a lot.
I'm a little bit of a workaholicso, but I'm making, I'm making a
(04:01):
transition right now away from or with the Canadian addiction
treatment centers. They're a wonderful network of
service providers. So always kind of worked in
mental health and substance use in some capacity.
I would say most of my experience has been through
inpatient treatment centers in the private world, but I've also
worked a nonprofit and the public sector.
(04:22):
So I went from, you know, a private treatment center that
was a little bit smaller a number of years ago.
And then I moved into nonprofit and I actually worked in the
shelter system for 3 1/2 years over COVID-19 or throughout
COVID-19. And yeah, you've.
Seen some shit? Yeah, definitely seen some shit
for sure. It was a devastating time.
(04:49):
Yeah. It's a lot of times I wish I
hadn't seen the things that I'veseen.
But at the same time, I'm also grateful that I've gotten to be
able to see the reality of how much our system has failed
people. And you know, how just like you
were sharing right now, Anthony,like it's the difference of a
(05:10):
day for someone, for a lot of people.
And it, there's so much misunderstanding around people
who are struggling with substance use, you know, also
mixed with like mental health. And then you also add the
housing piece, which is becomingmore and more of our communities
and society. I mean, it's just the numbers
(05:32):
are going up and up and up. So even though it's, it's, it
was traumatizing working in thatarea, I, I'm so grateful and
some of the most amazing people I've met have been like
residents of the shelter system who I just truly think are the
most remarkable humans in the world.
I really do. I grew up in precariously house
(05:54):
housing situations and just had a really rough childhood and
didn't come from a lot. So I feel very at home in that
environment, ironically, no pun intended.
And it's just kind of where I feel really at peace, which is
kind of hard to explain, but I loved working there.
(06:14):
And then I, I came over to see, to see TC again about 3 1/2
years after that and stepped into some executive leadership
or senior leadership there and just kind of grew within the
organization. And now I'm kind of starting a
new journey myself. And throughout, you know, the
last year and a half or so, I started my PhD in psych as well.
(06:38):
But the specialization is this is industrial and organizational
psychology. So it's kind of like thinking
about teams and companies and organizations as an individual
itself and working and consulting to help make that
whole individual, if you will beas healthy and effective and you
(07:03):
know, healing as we possibly can.
Like I, I can obviously go into it more if it would be helpful,
but that's how I most easily explain it.
Yeah. So just really, really grateful
for the career so far. And that's so specifically when
you talk about helping organizations run as AI, like
that analogy too, like healthy human.
(07:24):
Yeah, there's certain things that need to fall in place
daily, things that need to happen, right?
We can, you know, metaphors can go on forever.
You're talking specifically addiction centers,
organizations, or just mental health or?
Just everyone, actually, like any organization.
Yeah. And what brings me to it is
after years of working with individuals and, and Anthony,
(07:45):
when I say every type of person,I truly mean every type of
person. I mean, if there's a profile
people like to put towards substance use or homelessness, I
can tell you right now, none of those profiles are accurate.
There's no face of addiction or face of homelessness or face of
mental health. It's just all of us, any of us.
(08:09):
And I just, I think the most prevalent thing coming through,
there's probably 21 is trauma for sure, but the other one is
stress. And it's our environments where
people go in to work every day more and more.
And we just live in the world where I'm sure you've said it on
the podcast many times, you know, like the opposite of
(08:30):
addiction is connection. And we are living in such a
disconnected world and heading into a place where I just think
more and more people are going to be struggling and trying to
cope and keep up with, you know,the unrealistic demands of the
workplace now and again, just the impact of stress that we
(08:53):
really need support there or we're just going to keep seeing
people struggle. Yeah, more and.
More I mean, I can relate to that 100% more recently, right?
Like it is so much, especially living downtown Toronto.
It's so funny, right? You're living in a huge city
with the most people, you know, a lot of people in, I wanna say
(09:13):
in Canada. Is it most people in Canada?
I don't know. There's a lot of people that
live in Toronto, but such a big city, you can feel so alone,
like it's so easy, right? And especially being in a condo,
it's so much easier for me to just isolate.
You know, even, you know, I livewith my partner at home, my
wife, but it's so much easier for for us to isolate than it is
just to go out and to see my family.
(09:34):
You know, my family's in the GTA.
And for me, there's some days where it's like, that's just
like the the longest trek, right, to get out there.
And yeah, so that's something that I've been struggling with
for sure is like, it's just so much easier to stay at home and
not connect with anybody. And sometimes I'll get a phone
call and I'm just like, I don't even, I don't want like it just
(09:55):
snowballs, right? Like it starts with one night in
and then it's it's like not going to the gym, right?
When you don't go to the gym fora while, it's just so much
easier to to choose the life of Netflix and chill or whatever.
Yeah, whatever your advice is. I also think there's something
there you're bringing up, which is that exhaustion and just, Oh
my gosh, there's something else I have to do in my day.
Speaks to the fact that we're constantly on our phones and
(10:17):
constantly connected to the world in a way that our brains
and our bodies literally are notmeant to be kind of constantly
facing all the time, 24 hours a day.
There's I was, I was speaking onan event last week and I talked
about just the breakdown of the stress cycle.
And it like helped me remember that our nervous system when we
(10:39):
go through that stress, we're we're supposed to, or we did for
a very, very long time, close that stress cycle by just
returning to a state of rest, maxing the nervous system.
Equilibrium. Equilibrium, right?
And so now, because our phones are always on, anyone can
message you anytime I need help or can you help me here?
And whatever come in for this shift or whatever it might be,
(11:04):
our poor nervous systems never rest and never get an
opportunity to just regulate again.
And so we're constantly in this overhaul of like cortisol spikes
and constantly going and thinking and moving and doing.
And then of course, we just crash.
Like we're just like, I can't imagine going, you know, across
that. I, I can't have anything else to
(11:25):
give. I have nothing else to give to
this world today. I just want to like Netflix and
chill. And so if you maybe it's a bit
of a stretch where when I think about that and simply connected
to the cycle of addiction and itjust seems the exact same to me.
You know, we're coping, we're coping, we're coping, we're
coping. And there aren't enough outlets
(11:46):
for us to, you know, get that rest, you know, unpack our
mental health, connect with an individual, go and have fun,
have a bit of play and joy in our lives.
And then as soon as you know it,you're like you just said,
you're the Adderall and, and, and you're just like, I'm in it.
I'm totally snowballed into it, right?
So I'm really fascinated with that, Anthony.
(12:07):
And I feel like I have a newly called purpose to share that in
the workplace where we spend 80 to 90% of our time and we just
don't, we don't care for ourselves and and others the way
that we need to. What do?
You think the biggest problem with with corporate or
workplaces are today? What are the?
(12:29):
Biggest issues? So I think when it's it comes to
substance use, it's an interesting paradox because on
one hand, you know, it's, it's normalized and it's, you know,
after work, let's go and grab a drink or let's go and whatever.
And then it very quickly turns into something, something that's
(12:52):
very stigmatizing. Oh, that person is struggling.
Like let's just push them through an HR process and really
isolate them even though they'rehaving a hard time.
You know, a lot of the practices, organizational
practices are not rooted in any type of like trauma informed or
just social justice or human centered practices.
(13:13):
They're very, very rooted in industrial outcomes and
priorities. And of course, decades after
decades after decades, that's created even with the best
intentions, you know, an environment of distrust and
maybe fear sometimes. So in order for us to like heal
(13:34):
through that, we have to make some.
I really like talking about upstream solutions and I'm not
trying to place blame there in any way on like, you know,
specific departments or leadership necessarily.
But I do think upstream solutions need to include all
those conversations with all those people on how they can do
(13:54):
things better. Like really just looking at the
impact of a policy or a process on the person.
Here's something I'm already rambling.
I knew this was going to happen,but mergers and acquisitions are
fascinating to me. They happen more and more.
It's like the highest time for mergers and acquisitions.
And I read a stat like a year ago that said 70% of mergers and
(14:17):
acquisitions are like fail. They don't really ever get to a
point of maximum profit and success.
And it really started getting meto think about like when in the
merger and acquisition process to the people get thought about,
you know, like when we're makingall these changes around
(14:38):
someone's livelihood, fear of restructuring, it's a world
economy. Like there's so many fears when
during that process are people addressing those fears and
creating space to prevent and not create harm to people.
So that example alone, which again is a normal organizational
(14:58):
experience in action or however you want to call it, all those
people, the ripple effect is allof those people that have to go
through that stress, putting allof those people at risk for a
number of different mental health or substance use
challenges. I, when I was at this event last
week, I identified some of the high risks in an organization
(15:21):
and it's, it's all really similar to again, on an
individual basis. So things like, you know, staff
being isolated, if you're shift work or out in, you know, parts
of Canada like mining or drilling, massive rates of
substance use, opiates, physicalpain, you know, trauma and
adverse impact, critical incidents on site, massive
(15:45):
change. Change is a big one.
Those are like four or five things that happen all the time
that we know tons of informationon, yet we're not embedding them
into our practices or organizational practices.
So yeah, my hope is I can maybe help in that way, especially for
the industries that have those higher risk factors, which at
(16:06):
this point is almost every single industry, yeah.
Yeah, construction and trades being?
Totally. The leading, yeah, I would say
I've actually done research on this because it interests me as
well. I think.
I don't have the numbers, but I think bartending and service
industry is like second, I wouldsay.
And then something like professional, you know, lawyers
(16:26):
and stuff like that would probably be up there, Doctors as
well in some scenarios. I think it's something that we
need to look at. I'm really happy you brought up
the trades and construction because one of the I work with a
lot of reference in that space or worked with CTC, they do
amazing. Work.
Yeah, they have a lot of good unions, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But at the same time, when, when
(16:52):
people who aren't in the field need to start doing things that
people in the field do, that's scary to me.
So I'll break that down. If in a in a workplace, you have
to start training your staff on how to do overdose prevention or
to use naloxone, that is a really downstream solution.
What is it upstream that's creating the situation of
(17:19):
someone coming to work using opiates or substance using to
the extent where they're puttingthemselves at risk and had harm
or in in harm's way. And then it, you know, it's
people around them that have to potentially save their life and.
Go through that trauma, Yeah it yeah, it also to me.
(17:41):
But that's wild to me. It also like it tells me that
they're they're kind of just saying, well, you know, work has
nothing to do with the reason that he's using drugs.
His he's just fucked up at home or he's got a lot going on.
That's why it's like you're at work 8 hours a day, right?
That's exactly it. So that's exactly where the
passion comes from. Because that mentality is so
(18:01):
incorrect and so damaging and that's part of the problem.
You know, we, we can't pretend people are still peopling or
people while they're at work 8 hours a day.
And it's not to say that we needto go as far as, you know, I
think people think, well, like how do we then even manage that?
You know what, what is the answer?
(18:22):
And I don't know if there is just one answer at this point
because it's not even something we're talking about that much.
We need to be talking about it alot more.
I I can provide an anecdote to that because this happened to
me. So after I got sober again, I
left my corporate job that I wasthere for eight or nine years,
(18:44):
didn't get fired. Actually, surprisingly, I
managed to leave and go to another job probably.
Because you're really good at what you.
Do yeah, I mean, in recovery I built like a good life, right?
I built a lot of good skills andtools and and I was I was good
at it. I didn't like it, right?
I didn't like what I was doing, which is why I pivoted into this
industry now, But I got a message after I started posting
(19:05):
on social media a lot from a guyI used to work with.
And he just, you know, this hugelong thing, man, I, you know,
I'm so happy you're doing well. And I'm thinking he's going to,
you know, I'm going to say I hadno clue.
Like, holy fuck, this is like what?
Right, Because that's what we, we think that no one knows,
right? That that we're going through
shit. He met.
He goes on to say, I really knewyou were in a rough place.
(19:26):
I knew you were struggling and Ididn't say anything because I
was told not to by people at work, right?
And I, I just looked at that andI was like, that's so messed up.
Like I, you know, there's, there's got to be to your point,
there's got to be something better than you know, Oh, that
guy's messed up. Let's talk about him and how bad
he's doing. But you know, what are we going
to do? We can't do anything about.
(19:46):
It yeah, right. And I mean, it's OK to say what
are we going to do? We need help.
I mean, it's I know it's hard toask for help, I can relate to
that. But if we start asking for help
just a little bit more people like me and many others who, you
know, would have my experience or education or or better can
come and and help. Like that's the whole point is
(20:09):
let's start to have these conversations and figure out how
we can help people because yeah,it's just scary to me that you
know, when the ripple effect Anthony, is huge and what I love
to do. I love a hard conversation.
Like, I love problem solving andfinding a way for everyone to
have a win, win, win. So I believe, you know, there's
(20:35):
a, there's a way to do this where we help people, number
one, we create healthier workplaces #2 and companies are
not spending unnecessary money or having accidents or, you
know, toxicity or just expenses that are incurred as a result of
(20:56):
not having these conversations. I really believe by having them,
everybody wins at the end of theday.
Like, it's just the right thing to do.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I, I mean, I'm just thinkingabout how that would play out,
right. And I agree with you 100%.
It's, we're not, maybe we'll never have a good answer for it,
right? But to your point, it's like, I
(21:18):
just think about how my family helped me, right?
And 'cause they had no idea whatthey were doing too.
And I mean, at least if we took someone aside, it's, it's really
hard though, right, to do that in a professional setting.
It's it's hard if we make it hard not to cut you off, but it
really is hard if we keep sayingit's hard.
(21:40):
I mean, you and I just met. This isn't hard.
We're just people. We're just being people
together. We're just chatting.
You know, I'm coming to the conversation with no judgement
and support and you know, just the the priority of like showing
up for you. That's a hard for for me to do.
I don't think it's hard for you to do for people who get the
(22:02):
honor of coming and chatting with you like it it, it can be
hard. It can be complicated, but I I
do wonder if it needs to be hardand complicated.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, we, I, I think there's
just a stigma around the workplace that we can't talk
about this stuff, right? I can't approach said
(22:24):
individual. What if I'm wrong?
There's all these things that are going through my head,
right? And chances are you're not wrong
if you're noticing some behaviors, right?
The chances are they are struggling with something.
So I mean, it could be as simpleas like, hey, is there anything
I can do to help you? Right, exactly.
Is there anything that I could do?
I it looks like you're going through a tough time, right?
(22:45):
Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, it's not that complicated.
It's not that complicated and complicating it.
And, and, and that's part of thestigma.
Like that's part of the fear andthe avoidance of I just like
this is too big, too messy, too unfamiliar and confusing for me
to step into the space. And what we're doing there is,
(23:07):
you know, again, well intended. Like I know we're not, you know,
wanting to hurt someone as a result of that.
But by continuing that narrativeand that language, we're we're
continuing to stigmatize it. Again, at the end of the day, I
teach trauma informed practice this at Humbert College and and
I always say to my students, because they're so dedicated,
they're so committed, they're like, Oh my gosh, they like try
(23:28):
the professor Perry and I'm like, no, no, no, no, we're just
Alex is good. But, you know, just what if I
asked the wrong question or whatif I, you know, I said as long
as you are doing two things. One, we have two ears, one
mouth. Listen more than let you talk.
I'm sure you know that. One, same thing here.
Just listening can go so far. And then #2 just simply ask,
(23:52):
like, what can I do to help? What do you need right now?
How nice is it when someone asksyou, Anthony, what do you need
right now? Oh, my God, It's the best
question. What do you need right now?
Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, it's overwhelming too.
Sometimes it's like, I'm like, Idon't even know.
I don't know, you tell me what Ineed.
(24:13):
But it's it's the ability when that person asks that question,
if they're able to not jump in when you don't know the answer,
because I do that too, right? Where if you ask someone for
help there, you have to pause and you have to be OK with
silence because it'll come out to your point, eventually it'll
come out right. But when it's, you know, I have
to. Do you want me to do this?
Do you want me to do that? It's like, dude, just.
(24:34):
I so I'm like, so one of those people 100%.
Silence is tough, yeah. Silence is tough.
Yeah, silence is tough. I mean, there could be also a
world where, you know, organizations and, and you know,
different companies actually include some people like us on
their team. I've thought about that.
(24:56):
Yeah. It's weird that you bring that
up. Yeah, I see there's a role for
that for. Sure, totally.
And I don't think it's like a counselor.
I don't think it's something like that because people just
already are like, OK, that's notgoing to be helpful.
This is no one uses Eaps. It has to be something that's
really authentic and the abilityto like really connect with
(25:16):
people and understand and almostlike maybe even like a
consultant, like just a place where people to be, you know,
able to openly talk. Because I noticed too, on the
flip side of things, being part of senior leadership, I've never
worked in an organization be like, we're just choosing to be
horrible. Like no one's choosing to do
(25:38):
things that are not great for their employees.
I've always worked somewhere where their intention is they
want to do best by their employees, by their company, and
they're managing again, these like really hard paradoxes that
don't work easily together. Having said that, you know,
again, those roles need need to ask for help, lean into
(26:02):
curiosity and work with experts who can help them identify some
things. And they might not be big, they
might be small, or they might bebig.
But yeah, I do think there's a world where companies get are
more involved in this type of conversation with people who
(26:24):
have lived experience. Yeah, a mental health
consultant, right For the. For the company isn't that good.
Work at the company, yeah. And instead of HR, right?
Like you're a part of HR maybe, but you're the mental health
consultant. No one has to know that you when
saw the guy or girl or person, right?
No one has to know. And it could just be as simple
as resources. Yeah, I talked to so many people
(26:45):
to tell you that I have no idea what RAM clinics are.
They have no clue, right? And it's such a helpful
resource, right. Rapid addiction access, rapid
access addiction medicine. I've been there myself.
I've gone through it and it's a great, it's a great program.
Like I was able to go show up. They gave me resources all
covered under O hip, O hip, right?
And that's everyone's that's thebiggest it's maybe you can talk
(27:08):
a little bit to this too. I don't have money.
How do I get sober? I need money to get sober.
Yeah. I hate hearing.
That I know it's it's brutal. So just the mental health thing.
I love what you said about a mental health consultant for the
like the organization someone can lean on.
I, I think even bigger of the mental health of an
(27:29):
organization, like the whole system of an organization that
was like a, a person, an entity.How is the mental health of that
entity? That's what I think could be
really cool. Anyways, you don't have money to
go to treatment. Yeah, this is a this is a hard
(27:50):
topic to talk about because it is a bit controversial these
days with things like involuntary treatment, what
seems like a push for privatizedhealthcare and many, many
organizations and nonprofits whoactually do the work that needs
(28:10):
to be happening and have for a really, really long time just
like not getting funded properly.
OK, so I think maybe two-part answer 1 is if someone does if
if someone out there is struggling and we're.
Looking. At you, yeah, we're looking at
the camera. If, if this speaks to you, if
you're struggling and it feels like you can't afford treatment,
(28:36):
I would still call a treatment center.
So for the Canadian addiction treatment centers, one of my
favorite things about them is they have a refer relations
manager role and that role is really intended to help navigate
the different options people have because they're usually the
ones that work with different, Like you said, unions or
reference is what we call them, and that could be various
(28:58):
different organizations. Yeah.
It can be a number of different things, so I would still call.
Always call. I know it feels really defeating
and probably hopeless in some ways, but always call if you're
a person for yourself and, or you're working with someone as
like a social worker or or case manager or something like that.
(29:21):
Call and then ask questions like, you know, is the person
working? Are they a veteran?
I mean, there's, there's many people in the shelter system
that are veterans, which is not OK, but that can open
potentially a direct referral pathway for someone to get
(29:42):
access into treatment. You know, there's, there's other
part ways that people can ask, like partnerships.
I work really closely with an organization called Victim
Services. They have a treatment pathway
for survivors of human trafficking.
So again, in this system, like let's say if someone goes to a
(30:03):
R.E.M. clinic, to your point, and a case worker at a R.E.M.
Clinic notices like, OK, I'm really feeling like this
individual is fleeing, you know,a really dangerous situation.
If they know about this pathway,they can get the person in at no
expense. Like it's a funded pathway for
immediate access into treatment.So ask questions, even though it
(30:27):
may not always result in a funded option into treatment #2
if anyone out there is working with a team or is like a, like
myself, a member of a company like CHC, make sure your
resources are widely available because there's so many silos in
(30:47):
the system that we can increase people's chances and access to
treatment by working together. And then all of a sudden you get
to have these wonderful conversations, like, you know,
there's a fun, there's already established funding here, but
why don't we all come together to get more funding and get
people more access to treatment?So that's another maybe
(31:11):
perspective. But at the end of the day, this
is you've hit it right on the head.
This is the biggest challenge right now for recovery and
treatment. And it feels like it might be,
again, controversial to say, butit feels like recovery is
privileged in a lot of ways, which doesn't seem what not,
(31:33):
doesn't seem isn't equitable to people.
I mean, there is a part of that that's true though, right?
Like I'm doing the schooling right now for becoming a social
worker, and that's great. It's recognizing your privilege
in a lot of scenarios, right? If I didn't have support, I've
been to three rehabs. And if I didn't have, I remember
(31:54):
when I was 23 my mom calling public funded organization in
Toronto. And at that time I think it was
3 to 4 month wait list. But the other caveat too was I
had to be willing and call in. So she had this 23 year old kid,
didn't know what to do with him.I didn't want to stop drinking
or using. Right, right, right, right.
In that scenario, the only option really was to get into a
(32:17):
private treatment. And I'm, I'm grateful that I had
that experience. I don't know what would have
happened if I, if it went the other way.
Right. So there is a part of that where
I do have to recognize that there is a privilege.
But at the same time, I've met so many people in recovery that
have come from absolutely nothing.
Yeah. And gotten sober even without
rehab, right. They've gotten sober with 12
step meetings or SMART Recovery or whatever, whatever the
(32:41):
modality is in that scenario. Not everyone needs to go to
rehab, right I. Need to yeah, I mean, listen,
it's, it's something that I think I, I really believe in as
you know, the the most kind of terrible way of saying this, but
like bang for your buck, like you're gonna get the most
(33:01):
support in that time, you know then, you know obviously waiting
or doing individual sessions, but either way, the majority of
people probably cannot afford treatment and that's a problem.
So if we go back to just the, you know, the system, thinking
(33:22):
of it all, there's, there's, there's a lot of ways our system
needs to just kind of face the facts that the majority of
people don't have access to the supports they need.
And to your point, I also reallystruggle with the fact that our
system is a like a fail first mentality.
(33:43):
People have to suffer like one term.
I, I don't this, I would love tohear your thoughts on this, but
hitting rock bottom, Do I think that that's necessary for some
people? For sure.
Do I think that that's what we need to get to before people get
access to support? Absolutely not.
(34:03):
We are never going to get out ofthis whole the opiate crisis.
If our mentality is that people have to hit rock bottom, that is
people dying. That's not a rock bottom we
should be waiting for before action is taken.
I get that that's not always what people mean by saying those
(34:24):
words for sure, but there is something that is backwards
within our system, you know, and, and if you think about
substance use as a health issue,like a chronic health issue like
we do for cancer or something else, how many preventative
measures and resources are thereout there to help us prevent
(34:47):
that chronic health issue from happening?
Yeah, it's the same thing. I've changed my mind on it.
I think I was very rigid with with that before.
Like I I really did believe thatyou had to.
And I get yeah. I mean, you mentioned it though,
it's it is subjective, right? My rock bottom is not my trauma
is somebody's Tuesday afternoon.I always say that right?
(35:08):
Like my my Tuesday afternoon is someone else's trauma, right?
And it's really subjective. I've, you know, I, I have in, in
comparison, you know, I've been hearing recovery stories for 10
years now. And in comparison, my bottom is
very high comparatively, right? I've heard a lot of really rough
things going on in people's lives.
(35:30):
And I do think that somebody does have to come to a place,
though, where, you know, there'sa piece of recovery literature
that mentions incomprehensible demoral, pitiful and
incomprehensible demoralization like this, just this point of
like, Oh my God, like, I'll do whatever it takes, right?
(35:53):
But I do also see how that can be dangerous, right?
Because it's very reactive and not proactive.
Exactly. So I'm just thinking like what
is? What is a more proactive
approach? That's my thought with it.
And I don't know if I I don't know if I have the answer.
I don't know if you have the answer to that, but how can we
be more proactive? Yeah, well, what comes to mind
(36:15):
for me is and just going off your point about the I love your
trauma is someone else's Tuesday.
I love that I might steal it. Steal.
It credit to you, of course, I probably stole it.
But I, I think that's exactly, it is like how how scary it is
that if, you know, I'm walking around looking like I'm doing
(36:37):
just fine when really Alex is ather rock bottom and no one is
seeing that because I don't feellike I can say it.
Like that's scary to me, Anthony.
That's, that's like, to me, thatmakes exact sense as to why
people feel so alone, why they feel so ashamed, why there's so
much stigma. So, yeah, I think keep like we
(36:59):
need to keep having those conversations for sure.
And then the system reactivity versus proactive.
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question.
What comes to mind is really individualizing.
I, I always, I I've not always shouldn't say always and never.
(37:20):
But I often hear myself say thatwe need to invest in people
individually. Really, if we could live in a
world where, you know, Anthony was looked at as Anthony in this
like all that Anthony is and where he is and what he needs
and design his own system aroundhim or like resources or
(37:45):
treatment plan for him. And then Alex is invested.
I'm held. I'm kind of like looked at as
this, you know, and whole personthat needs investment into that
person. I mean, could a design, I don't
know, I'm just like thinking outloud right now.
But right now the public sectors, we all pay into it.
(38:08):
Everyone gets access to basically the same things.
But I mean, I don't know is, is there a world where, you know,
here's the funds that you have on an individual basis and use
them as needed. And you might need them for one
thing, and I might need them forsomething else, but we have
access to them. And then, you know, that does
(38:28):
start staring us possibly into like maybe what feels like
privatized healthcare, which I'mI'm not necessarily a supporter
of, but something needs to change.
At the end of the day, somethingneeds to change because it's not
working. And it's it's more than not
working, it's hurting people. Yeah, I think, you know, as
(38:48):
you're talking there, I think I,I always think about like how,
what can I do right today? What are the small cause?
Change does happen over small actions, right?
In my experience, and I think when it comes to sharing my
story and getting on social media and doing this podcast,
maybe it opens up somebody earlier in their life saying,
(39:10):
hey, I think something's wrong here.
I'm not using like John is down the street, like everyone's
going home at the end of the night and I'm in the corner
doing more drugs. I don't like this right?
And it just the ability. So when when I think proactive
like very simply, it's like putting up your hand a little
bit earlier. Totally.
(39:31):
Rather than I'm burning in a fire here, mom or dad or loved
one, I think this might be a problem and then we can
intervene and start doing something about.
It Yeah, like if you, if you we all know ourselves the best.
I mean, we, we the world really likes to pull us away from our
gut. Gut feeling as much as I can,
but the, you know, trust your gut in every sense and if you
(39:55):
feel like you're going down a path where you're starting to
notice, like I remember I've never struggled with substances
myself, but I remember when I was working in the shelter
system, I would respond to so many overdose, overdoses and
deaths and just. Things that, you know, we don't
need to talk about. But I would get home so late and
(40:15):
the only way I could fall asleepwas drinking a glass of wine.
And I would get up in the morning.
And and that went so quickly from a glass of wine once or
twice in a week to like almost abottle in a night like it was,
it was. And then I had to stop myself
and just say, this is not this is not good.
(40:35):
This is over what my body is notdoing OK right now.
And, and on many levels, like not even just the, if we look at
as the, the drinking or substance or addiction as the,
the symptom of what's going on. I was stressed.
I was, you know, working probably 90 hours a week.
(40:57):
You know, I was being exposed toall of these different things,
which many, many people are still currently struggling with
and experiencing as frontline staff.
And there was just no support. And that was the only way I felt
I could, you know, get some sleep and not think about the
images I just saw or, you know, yeah, just try and get a bit of
(41:18):
rest. So I mean, trust that instinct
and that gut because if you know, things are going to be a
couple months away, like you shared a treatment center in
Toronto said there was going to be a three or four month wait,
let's start getting people readyfor that three or four months.
You know, and it doesn't mean that you're not, you don't need
help just because you can make it that three to four months.
(41:41):
You know, like if anything, that's just that's going to be,
it's all going to be more effective for you because you're
taking it into your own hands and you're asking for help when
you start to feel like the struggle starts.
You know, so I, I agree with you.
I think getting that hand up sooner and earlier is great.
(42:01):
And you know, family members, ifthat's something to normalize it
in your family, have these hard conversations because it's just
a reality of the world. You know, it, the world has
changed. Anthony, I don't know how old
you are. I'm younger, obviously, but
(42:23):
maybe we're around the same age.When we were younger, a lot of
this stuff, a lot of the stress that didn't exist.
We're having different conversations around the dinner
table. We're doing different things as
a kid, You know, we've got to really try to keep having those
connected conversations so that at that first sign have help.
We can be like, ah, OK, we've got to like step in now.
(42:46):
As opposed to it just like bubbling it under the surface
and then it fucking explodes. Oh well.
Sweep it under the rug. Yeah.
That was a master of that. We.
I'm just thinking about like, yeah, like, like vaping is one
of those things now where it's like that's coming into.
That wasn't a problem when I wasa kid, right?
I was born in 92. So I know you're you're dying to
(43:09):
know. So there you go.
Not younger than you. But yeah, it's like my, you
know, I grew up in a, in a culture where, and this is no
fault of my parents at all, right?
I had a very good life growing up.
Very good. I had everything I needed and
wanted. It was easier for me to lie than
it was to tell the truth becauseI was so scared of consequences.
(43:29):
And I believe that's not what made me a drug addict.
There's no. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. But it's part of the condition.
Part of the whole thing. And then this whole, like, my
whole life, if you were to draw a corroding thread through
anytime I picked up drugs and alcohol and went down the wrong
path, it was always not being honest.
Like that is like the number onething.
It was secrets. And I'm not telling you I'm
(43:49):
going to lie about it because I'm scared of the consequences.
And then it just becomes like this habitual thing right where
you're like, you know, what did you do yesterday?
And I'm like, I went out to, I'll just lie about that because
I'm embarrassed for or it doesn't even make sense.
There's no reason sometimes. And I'll just lie, you know what
I mean? So that's something that I
struggle with. Yeah, we don't try to think of
(44:14):
I, I wish we had more time, but we don't.
But you'll have to come back, orwe will have to reconvene in
another way, collab serration style.
Absolutely. What, let me ask you this, what,
What do you hope people get out of your work and your story or
message? I hope that people get a bit of
(44:39):
validation and feeling heard andseen.
I got you guys. I have a commitment to carrying
forward every person I've come across professionally.
A client, someone in a shelter system doesn't matter.
Everyone's equal and your stories matter.
(45:00):
And so I hope that feels, you know, validating today and then
from, you know, the work I am doing and going forward want to
do is, I mean, it's the same thing as when I started as an
addictions counselor. I just want to help people.
It's in a different capacity nowfor sure.
(45:20):
But I think it's in a potentially a capacity that, you
know, could really be system changing and might really start
to make the world a kinder and better place for people.
So not to say I'm gonna do all of that myself, but just one
conversation at a time, hopefully.
(45:41):
A cog in the wheel, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, exactly. Again, it's small things, you
know? Am I being a kind person today?
Am I listening instead of waiting to talk?
Right. Yeah.
I love the two years when I or sorry, Two, one month, two
years. Are you a minion?
Are those minions? Maybe if you go into Lake
(46:02):
Ontario too. Yeah, seriously.
Okay, well we'll do a part time.Part 2 We'll have to do a Part 2
where can. People listen to your podcast as
somewhere you're supposed. To no okay, they know.
Okay, sorry OK Are you on socialmedia?
Where do we find you? I'm just a person.
Let's make it about you. On social media, I don't really
(46:22):
have like a big following or anything, but stay tuned.
Maybe by Part 2, Part 2, I'll, I'll have a handle.
Is that what they're called? Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Elder millennial over here. Is your account on private or
public? Private.
OK, yeah, that says everything right there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely private.
I have a private account too, but yeah, everything's over
(46:44):
there. Yeah.
Private person, listen, I appreciate the the work that
you're doing. Seriously, nothing gets done
unless we change high level systems.
You got it right there. We could just be keep
complaining until we're blue in the face and nothing changes if
we don't do so on. Top start to have.
I'm really excited about this role I'm stepping in to next
(47:05):
week. As someone who brings expertise
on substance use, we need more of that in the workplace.
And just if anyone out there needs help, ask for help.
We got you. You're loved, you're worthy and
proud of you for being courageous to ask for it.
Thanks so much, Alex. You're welcome.
Thank you. Thanks for listening.
(47:27):
Please help us grow the channel and like, share and subscribe
for more content. The discussions and stories
shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational
purposes only. This content is not a substitute
for professional medical advice,addiction treatment, or therapy.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction,
please consult A licensed physician, addiction specialist,
(47:49):
or mental health professional. You are no longer alone.
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
Podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and
addiction. I'm so glad you're here.
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
alcohol, please reach out for help.
Send me a message on all social media platforms at Recovering
Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com.
(00:26):
You are no longer alone. So that's why I like doing the
back and forth, like the professionals lived experience
(00:48):
back and forth and then the family side of it.
I always, I always loved doing because my last relapse I was
really, what's the word? I don't want to say humbled, but
I was really, I was humbled, butI was really, my eyes opened to
how much I affected my family, right?
Because they saw it was different for when I didn't have
(01:11):
a solution before, you know, when I was 23 and I had no
solution at all. I had no concept of, I didn't
even know what that word meant. I just thought everybody used
drugs and drank the way I did. And I was going to go on like
that for the rest of my life andsomehow manage it one day,
right? This great illusion that we all
have. So this time around, my family
knew that I had a solution and Iwasn't reaching for it every
day. And I was choosing to live in
(01:32):
Airbnbs and hotels and do all these crazy things.
And so, yeah, so I that's my point with that is I'm very
interested in also too. I get a lot of messages from
family members, more so than addicts I would say.
Yeah, family's a complex one. We can get into that a little
bit there. I can try and be helpful to your
(01:54):
listeners in terms of my own lived experience there.
So or how long have you been sober now?
Now almost 10 months. Amazing.
Yeah, so I had eight years and decided that I was, I had a
secret about something I always talk about.
It's a long story, but essentially I wasn't telling the
truth about what was going on over a year, you know, and I had
(02:15):
these ideas of fixing my body dysmorphia, you know, I so I
started with performance enhancing drugs and steroids.
And every time I say that, it's funny.
People are always like, how doesthat lead to, you know, smoking
meth? And I'm like, well, dude, like
it always starts with one thing,right, where you're like, I'm
not going to tell you about thisthing that I'm, and then this,
(02:36):
it snowballs into like secrets and secrets and secrets.
And then I'm doing Adderall and then next thing I know I'm on
the couch and someone's offeringme to smoke some meth and I'm
like, why not fuck it, right, Why not?
And then, you know, it's very hard to get back in, in, in at
least my situation. But enough about me.
People talk about me all the time.
(02:57):
I want to hear about you. Do they?
Do they? Feel like I'm among a big, big
deal here with Anthony. I could talk about my and.
Recovering out loud. All day.
Thank you. I could talk about myself all
day, but. That's the opposite.
I, I don't struggle talking about myself, but I feel like
every day it's a journey of coming to peace and acceptance
(03:21):
of, you know, my life and experiences.
So thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and share of
it today. Yeah, I'm excited too.
I gotta say I like I absolutely love your passion for this topic
and you know, within meeting youin on the phone, just talking on
(03:41):
the phone for 10 minutes there, like I could just feel how much
this means to you and I'm excited to get into that.
Like, why is it so important to you for one?
And well, why don't you tell us,like, tell everyone what you do
first? OK, I do a lot.
I'm a little bit of a workaholicso, but I'm making, I'm making a
(04:01):
transition right now away from or with the Canadian addiction
treatment centers. They're a wonderful network of
service providers. So always kind of worked in
mental health and substance use in some capacity.
I would say most of my experience has been through
inpatient treatment centers in the private world, but I've also
worked a nonprofit and the public sector.
(04:22):
So I went from, you know, a private treatment center that
was a little bit smaller a number of years ago.
And then I moved into nonprofit and I actually worked in the
shelter system for 3 1/2 years over COVID-19 or throughout
COVID-19. And yeah, you've.
Seen some shit? Yeah, definitely seen some shit
for sure. It was a devastating time.
(04:49):
Yeah. It's a lot of times I wish I
hadn't seen the things that I'veseen.
But at the same time, I'm also grateful that I've gotten to be
able to see the reality of how much our system has failed
people. And you know, how just like you
were sharing right now, Anthony,like it's the difference of a
(05:10):
day for someone, for a lot of people.
And it, there's so much misunderstanding around people
who are struggling with substance use, you know, also
mixed with like mental health. And then you also add the
housing piece, which is becomingmore and more of our communities
and society. I mean, it's just the numbers
(05:32):
are going up and up and up. So even though it's, it's, it
was traumatizing working in thatarea, I, I'm so grateful and
some of the most amazing people I've met have been like
residents of the shelter system who I just truly think are the
most remarkable humans in the world.
I really do. I grew up in precariously house
(05:54):
housing situations and just had a really rough childhood and
didn't come from a lot. So I feel very at home in that
environment, ironically, no pun intended.
And it's just kind of where I feel really at peace, which is
kind of hard to explain, but I loved working there.
(06:14):
And then I, I came over to see, to see TC again about 3 1/2
years after that and stepped into some executive leadership
or senior leadership there and just kind of grew within the
organization. And now I'm kind of starting a
new journey myself. And throughout, you know, the
last year and a half or so, I started my PhD in psych as well.
(06:38):
But the specialization is this is industrial and organizational
psychology. So it's kind of like thinking
about teams and companies and organizations as an individual
itself and working and consulting to help make that
whole individual, if you will beas healthy and effective and you
(07:03):
know, healing as we possibly can.
Like I, I can obviously go into it more if it would be helpful,
but that's how I most easily explain it.
Yeah. So just really, really grateful
for the career so far. And that's so specifically when
you talk about helping organizations run as AI, like
that analogy too, like healthy human.
(07:24):
Yeah, there's certain things that need to fall in place
daily, things that need to happen, right?
We can, you know, metaphors can go on forever.
You're talking specifically addiction centers,
organizations, or just mental health or?
Just everyone, actually, like any organization.
Yeah. And what brings me to it is
after years of working with individuals and, and Anthony,
(07:45):
when I say every type of person,I truly mean every type of
person. I mean, if there's a profile
people like to put towards substance use or homelessness, I
can tell you right now, none of those profiles are accurate.
There's no face of addiction or face of homelessness or face of
mental health. It's just all of us, any of us.
(08:09):
And I just, I think the most prevalent thing coming through,
there's probably 21 is trauma for sure, but the other one is
stress. And it's our environments where
people go in to work every day more and more.
And we just live in the world where I'm sure you've said it on
the podcast many times, you know, like the opposite of
(08:30):
addiction is connection. And we are living in such a
disconnected world and heading into a place where I just think
more and more people are going to be struggling and trying to
cope and keep up with, you know,the unrealistic demands of the
workplace now and again, just the impact of stress that we
(08:53):
really need support there or we're just going to keep seeing
people struggle. Yeah, more and.
More I mean, I can relate to that 100% more recently, right?
Like it is so much, especially living downtown Toronto.
It's so funny, right? You're living in a huge city
with the most people, you know, a lot of people in, I wanna say
(09:13):
in Canada. Is it most people in Canada?
I don't know. There's a lot of people that
live in Toronto, but such a big city, you can feel so alone,
like it's so easy, right? And especially being in a condo,
it's so much easier for me to just isolate.
You know, even, you know, I livewith my partner at home, my
wife, but it's so much easier for for us to isolate than it is
just to go out and to see my family.
(09:34):
You know, my family's in the GTA.
And for me, there's some days where it's like, that's just
like the the longest trek, right, to get out there.
And yeah, so that's something that I've been struggling with
for sure is like, it's just so much easier to stay at home and
not connect with anybody. And sometimes I'll get a phone
call and I'm just like, I don't even, I don't want like it just
(09:55):
snowballs, right? Like it starts with one night in
and then it's it's like not going to the gym, right?
When you don't go to the gym fora while, it's just so much
easier to to choose the life of Netflix and chill or whatever.
Yeah, whatever your advice is. I also think there's something
there you're bringing up, which is that exhaustion and just, Oh
my gosh, there's something else I have to do in my day.
Speaks to the fact that we're constantly on our phones and
(10:17):
constantly connected to the world in a way that our brains
and our bodies literally are notmeant to be kind of constantly
facing all the time, 24 hours a day.
There's I was, I was speaking onan event last week and I talked
about just the breakdown of the stress cycle.
And it like helped me remember that our nervous system when we
(10:39):
go through that stress, we're we're supposed to, or we did for
a very, very long time, close that stress cycle by just
returning to a state of rest, maxing the nervous system.
Equilibrium. Equilibrium, right?
And so now, because our phones are always on, anyone can
message you anytime I need help or can you help me here?
And whatever come in for this shift or whatever it might be,
(11:04):
our poor nervous systems never rest and never get an
opportunity to just regulate again.
And so we're constantly in this overhaul of like cortisol spikes
and constantly going and thinking and moving and doing.
And then of course, we just crash.
Like we're just like, I can't imagine going, you know, across
that. I, I can't have anything else to
(11:25):
give. I have nothing else to give to
this world today. I just want to like Netflix and
chill. And so if you maybe it's a bit
of a stretch where when I think about that and simply connected
to the cycle of addiction and itjust seems the exact same to me.
You know, we're coping, we're coping, we're coping, we're
coping. And there aren't enough outlets
(11:46):
for us to, you know, get that rest, you know, unpack our
mental health, connect with an individual, go and have fun,
have a bit of play and joy in our lives.
And then as soon as you know it,you're like you just said,
you're the Adderall and, and, and you're just like, I'm in it.
I'm totally snowballed into it, right?
So I'm really fascinated with that, Anthony.
(12:07):
And I feel like I have a newly called purpose to share that in
the workplace where we spend 80 to 90% of our time and we just
don't, we don't care for ourselves and and others the way
that we need to. What do?
You think the biggest problem with with corporate or
workplaces are today? What are the?
(12:29):
Biggest issues? So I think when it's it comes to
substance use, it's an interesting paradox because on
one hand, you know, it's, it's normalized and it's, you know,
after work, let's go and grab a drink or let's go and whatever.
And then it very quickly turns into something, something that's
(12:52):
very stigmatizing. Oh, that person is struggling.
Like let's just push them through an HR process and really
isolate them even though they'rehaving a hard time.
You know, a lot of the practices, organizational
practices are not rooted in any type of like trauma informed or
just social justice or human centered practices.
(13:13):
They're very, very rooted in industrial outcomes and
priorities. And of course, decades after
decades after decades, that's created even with the best
intentions, you know, an environment of distrust and
maybe fear sometimes. So in order for us to like heal
(13:34):
through that, we have to make some.
I really like talking about upstream solutions and I'm not
trying to place blame there in any way on like, you know,
specific departments or leadership necessarily.
But I do think upstream solutions need to include all
those conversations with all those people on how they can do
(13:54):
things better. Like really just looking at the
impact of a policy or a process on the person.
Here's something I'm already rambling.
I knew this was going to happen,but mergers and acquisitions are
fascinating to me. They happen more and more.
It's like the highest time for mergers and acquisitions.
And I read a stat like a year ago that said 70% of mergers and
(14:17):
acquisitions are like fail. They don't really ever get to a
point of maximum profit and success.
And it really started getting meto think about like when in the
merger and acquisition process to the people get thought about,
you know, like when we're makingall these changes around
(14:38):
someone's livelihood, fear of restructuring, it's a world
economy. Like there's so many fears when
during that process are people addressing those fears and
creating space to prevent and not create harm to people.
So that example alone, which again is a normal organizational
(14:58):
experience in action or however you want to call it, all those
people, the ripple effect is allof those people that have to go
through that stress, putting allof those people at risk for a
number of different mental health or substance use
challenges. I, when I was at this event last
week, I identified some of the high risks in an organization
(15:21):
and it's, it's all really similar to again, on an
individual basis. So things like, you know, staff
being isolated, if you're shift work or out in, you know, parts
of Canada like mining or drilling, massive rates of
substance use, opiates, physicalpain, you know, trauma and
adverse impact, critical incidents on site, massive
(15:45):
change. Change is a big one.
Those are like four or five things that happen all the time
that we know tons of informationon, yet we're not embedding them
into our practices or organizational practices.
So yeah, my hope is I can maybe help in that way, especially for
the industries that have those higher risk factors, which at
(16:06):
this point is almost every single industry, yeah.
Yeah, construction and trades being?
Totally. The leading, yeah, I would say
I've actually done research on this because it interests me as
well. I think.
I don't have the numbers, but I think bartending and service
industry is like second, I wouldsay.
And then something like professional, you know, lawyers
(16:26):
and stuff like that would probably be up there, Doctors as
well in some scenarios. I think it's something that we
need to look at. I'm really happy you brought up
the trades and construction because one of the I work with a
lot of reference in that space or worked with CTC, they do
amazing. Work.
Yeah, they have a lot of good unions, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But at the same time, when, when
(16:52):
people who aren't in the field need to start doing things that
people in the field do, that's scary to me.
So I'll break that down. If in a in a workplace, you have
to start training your staff on how to do overdose prevention or
to use naloxone, that is a really downstream solution.
What is it upstream that's creating the situation of
(17:19):
someone coming to work using opiates or substance using to
the extent where they're puttingthemselves at risk and had harm
or in in harm's way. And then it, you know, it's
people around them that have to potentially save their life and.
Go through that trauma, Yeah it yeah, it also to me.
(17:41):
But that's wild to me. It also like it tells me that
they're they're kind of just saying, well, you know, work has
nothing to do with the reason that he's using drugs.
His he's just fucked up at home or he's got a lot going on.
That's why it's like you're at work 8 hours a day, right?
That's exactly it. So that's exactly where the
passion comes from. Because that mentality is so
(18:01):
incorrect and so damaging and that's part of the problem.
You know, we, we can't pretend people are still peopling or
people while they're at work 8 hours a day.
And it's not to say that we needto go as far as, you know, I
think people think, well, like how do we then even manage that?
You know what, what is the answer?
(18:22):
And I don't know if there is just one answer at this point
because it's not even something we're talking about that much.
We need to be talking about it alot more.
I I can provide an anecdote to that because this happened to
me. So after I got sober again, I
left my corporate job that I wasthere for eight or nine years,
(18:44):
didn't get fired. Actually, surprisingly, I
managed to leave and go to another job probably.
Because you're really good at what you.
Do yeah, I mean, in recovery I built like a good life, right?
I built a lot of good skills andtools and and I was I was good
at it. I didn't like it, right?
I didn't like what I was doing, which is why I pivoted into this
industry now, But I got a message after I started posting
(19:05):
on social media a lot from a guyI used to work with.
And he just, you know, this hugelong thing, man, I, you know,
I'm so happy you're doing well. And I'm thinking he's going to,
you know, I'm going to say I hadno clue.
Like, holy fuck, this is like what?
Right, Because that's what we, we think that no one knows,
right? That that we're going through
shit. He met.
He goes on to say, I really knewyou were in a rough place.
(19:26):
I knew you were struggling and Ididn't say anything because I
was told not to by people at work, right?
And I, I just looked at that andI was like, that's so messed up.
Like I, you know, there's, there's got to be to your point,
there's got to be something better than you know, Oh, that
guy's messed up. Let's talk about him and how bad
he's doing. But you know, what are we going
to do? We can't do anything about.
(19:46):
It yeah, right. And I mean, it's OK to say what
are we going to do? We need help.
I mean, it's I know it's hard toask for help, I can relate to
that. But if we start asking for help
just a little bit more people like me and many others who, you
know, would have my experience or education or or better can
come and and help. Like that's the whole point is
(20:09):
let's start to have these conversations and figure out how
we can help people because yeah,it's just scary to me that you
know, when the ripple effect Anthony, is huge and what I love
to do. I love a hard conversation.
Like, I love problem solving andfinding a way for everyone to
have a win, win, win. So I believe, you know, there's
(20:35):
a, there's a way to do this where we help people, number
one, we create healthier workplaces #2 and companies are
not spending unnecessary money or having accidents or, you
know, toxicity or just expenses that are incurred as a result of
(20:56):
not having these conversations. I really believe by having them,
everybody wins at the end of theday.
Like, it's just the right thing to do.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I, I mean, I'm just thinkingabout how that would play out,
right. And I agree with you 100%.
It's, we're not, maybe we'll never have a good answer for it,
right? But to your point, it's like, I
(21:18):
just think about how my family helped me, right?
And 'cause they had no idea whatthey were doing too.
And I mean, at least if we took someone aside, it's, it's really
hard though, right, to do that in a professional setting.
It's it's hard if we make it hard not to cut you off, but it
really is hard if we keep sayingit's hard.
(21:40):
I mean, you and I just met. This isn't hard.
We're just people. We're just being people
together. We're just chatting.
You know, I'm coming to the conversation with no judgement
and support and you know, just the the priority of like showing
up for you. That's a hard for for me to do.
I don't think it's hard for you to do for people who get the
(22:02):
honor of coming and chatting with you like it it, it can be
hard. It can be complicated, but I I
do wonder if it needs to be hardand complicated.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, we, I, I think there's
just a stigma around the workplace that we can't talk
about this stuff, right? I can't approach said
(22:24):
individual. What if I'm wrong?
There's all these things that are going through my head,
right? And chances are you're not wrong
if you're noticing some behaviors, right?
The chances are they are struggling with something.
So I mean, it could be as simpleas like, hey, is there anything
I can do to help you? Right, exactly.
Is there anything that I could do?
I it looks like you're going through a tough time, right?
(22:45):
Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, it's not that complicated.
It's not that complicated and complicating it.
And, and, and that's part of thestigma.
Like that's part of the fear andthe avoidance of I just like
this is too big, too messy, too unfamiliar and confusing for me
to step into the space. And what we're doing there is,
(23:07):
you know, again, well intended. Like I know we're not, you know,
wanting to hurt someone as a result of that.
But by continuing that narrativeand that language, we're we're
continuing to stigmatize it. Again, at the end of the day, I
teach trauma informed practice this at Humbert College and and
I always say to my students, because they're so dedicated,
they're so committed, they're like, Oh my gosh, they like try
(23:28):
the professor Perry and I'm like, no, no, no, no, we're just
Alex is good. But, you know, just what if I
asked the wrong question or whatif I, you know, I said as long
as you are doing two things. One, we have two ears, one
mouth. Listen more than let you talk.
I'm sure you know that. One, same thing here.
Just listening can go so far. And then #2 just simply ask,
(23:52):
like, what can I do to help? What do you need right now?
How nice is it when someone asksyou, Anthony, what do you need
right now? Oh, my God, It's the best
question. What do you need right now?
Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, it's overwhelming too.
Sometimes it's like, I'm like, Idon't even know.
I don't know, you tell me what Ineed.
(24:13):
But it's it's the ability when that person asks that question,
if they're able to not jump in when you don't know the answer,
because I do that too, right? Where if you ask someone for
help there, you have to pause and you have to be OK with
silence because it'll come out to your point, eventually it'll
come out right. But when it's, you know, I have
to. Do you want me to do this?
Do you want me to do that? It's like, dude, just.
(24:34):
I so I'm like, so one of those people 100%.
Silence is tough, yeah. Silence is tough.
Yeah, silence is tough. I mean, there could be also a
world where, you know, organizations and, and you know,
different companies actually include some people like us on
their team. I've thought about that.
(24:56):
Yeah. It's weird that you bring that
up. Yeah, I see there's a role for
that for. Sure, totally.
And I don't think it's like a counselor.
I don't think it's something like that because people just
already are like, OK, that's notgoing to be helpful.
This is no one uses Eaps. It has to be something that's
really authentic and the abilityto like really connect with
(25:16):
people and understand and almostlike maybe even like a
consultant, like just a place where people to be, you know,
able to openly talk. Because I noticed too, on the
flip side of things, being part of senior leadership, I've never
worked in an organization be like, we're just choosing to be
horrible. Like no one's choosing to do
(25:38):
things that are not great for their employees.
I've always worked somewhere where their intention is they
want to do best by their employees, by their company, and
they're managing again, these like really hard paradoxes that
don't work easily together. Having said that, you know,
again, those roles need need to ask for help, lean into
(26:02):
curiosity and work with experts who can help them identify some
things. And they might not be big, they
might be small, or they might bebig.
But yeah, I do think there's a world where companies get are
more involved in this type of conversation with people who
(26:24):
have lived experience. Yeah, a mental health
consultant, right For the. For the company isn't that good.
Work at the company, yeah. And instead of HR, right?
Like you're a part of HR maybe, but you're the mental health
consultant. No one has to know that you when
saw the guy or girl or person, right?
No one has to know. And it could just be as simple
as resources. Yeah, I talked to so many people
(26:45):
to tell you that I have no idea what RAM clinics are.
They have no clue, right? And it's such a helpful
resource, right. Rapid addiction access, rapid
access addiction medicine. I've been there myself.
I've gone through it and it's a great, it's a great program.
Like I was able to go show up. They gave me resources all
covered under O hip, O hip, right?
And that's everyone's that's thebiggest it's maybe you can talk
(27:08):
a little bit to this too. I don't have money.
How do I get sober? I need money to get sober.
Yeah. I hate hearing.
That I know it's it's brutal. So just the mental health thing.
I love what you said about a mental health consultant for the
like the organization someone can lean on.
I, I think even bigger of the mental health of an
(27:29):
organization, like the whole system of an organization that
was like a, a person, an entity.How is the mental health of that
entity? That's what I think could be
really cool. Anyways, you don't have money to
go to treatment. Yeah, this is a this is a hard
(27:50):
topic to talk about because it is a bit controversial these
days with things like involuntary treatment, what
seems like a push for privatizedhealthcare and many, many
organizations and nonprofits whoactually do the work that needs
(28:10):
to be happening and have for a really, really long time just
like not getting funded properly.
OK, so I think maybe two-part answer 1 is if someone does if
if someone out there is struggling and we're.
Looking. At you, yeah, we're looking at
the camera. If, if this speaks to you, if
you're struggling and it feels like you can't afford treatment,
(28:36):
I would still call a treatment center.
So for the Canadian addiction treatment centers, one of my
favorite things about them is they have a refer relations
manager role and that role is really intended to help navigate
the different options people have because they're usually the
ones that work with different, Like you said, unions or
reference is what we call them, and that could be various
(28:58):
different organizations. Yeah.
It can be a number of different things, so I would still call.
Always call. I know it feels really defeating
and probably hopeless in some ways, but always call if you're
a person for yourself and, or you're working with someone as
like a social worker or or case manager or something like that.
(29:21):
Call and then ask questions like, you know, is the person
working? Are they a veteran?
I mean, there's, there's many people in the shelter system
that are veterans, which is not OK, but that can open
potentially a direct referral pathway for someone to get
(29:42):
access into treatment. You know, there's, there's other
part ways that people can ask, like partnerships.
I work really closely with an organization called Victim
Services. They have a treatment pathway
for survivors of human trafficking.
So again, in this system, like let's say if someone goes to a
(30:03):
R.E.M. clinic, to your point, and a case worker at a R.E.M.
Clinic notices like, OK, I'm really feeling like this
individual is fleeing, you know,a really dangerous situation.
If they know about this pathway,they can get the person in at no
expense. Like it's a funded pathway for
immediate access into treatment.So ask questions, even though it
(30:27):
may not always result in a funded option into treatment #2
if anyone out there is working with a team or is like a, like
myself, a member of a company like CHC, make sure your
resources are widely available because there's so many silos in
(30:47):
the system that we can increase people's chances and access to
treatment by working together. And then all of a sudden you get
to have these wonderful conversations, like, you know,
there's a fun, there's already established funding here, but
why don't we all come together to get more funding and get
people more access to treatment?So that's another maybe
(31:11):
perspective. But at the end of the day, this
is you've hit it right on the head.
This is the biggest challenge right now for recovery and
treatment. And it feels like it might be,
again, controversial to say, butit feels like recovery is
privileged in a lot of ways, which doesn't seem what not,
(31:33):
doesn't seem isn't equitable to people.
I mean, there is a part of that that's true though, right?
Like I'm doing the schooling right now for becoming a social
worker, and that's great. It's recognizing your privilege
in a lot of scenarios, right? If I didn't have support, I've
been to three rehabs. And if I didn't have, I remember
(31:54):
when I was 23 my mom calling public funded organization in
Toronto. And at that time I think it was
3 to 4 month wait list. But the other caveat too was I
had to be willing and call in. So she had this 23 year old kid,
didn't know what to do with him.I didn't want to stop drinking
or using. Right, right, right, right.
In that scenario, the only option really was to get into a
(32:17):
private treatment. And I'm, I'm grateful that I had
that experience. I don't know what would have
happened if I, if it went the other way.
Right. So there is a part of that where
I do have to recognize that there is a privilege.
But at the same time, I've met so many people in recovery that
have come from absolutely nothing.
Yeah. And gotten sober even without
rehab, right. They've gotten sober with 12
step meetings or SMART Recovery or whatever, whatever the
(32:41):
modality is in that scenario. Not everyone needs to go to
rehab, right I. Need to yeah, I mean, listen,
it's, it's something that I think I, I really believe in as
you know, the the most kind of terrible way of saying this, but
like bang for your buck, like you're gonna get the most
(33:01):
support in that time, you know then, you know obviously waiting
or doing individual sessions, but either way, the majority of
people probably cannot afford treatment and that's a problem.
So if we go back to just the, you know, the system, thinking
(33:22):
of it all, there's, there's, there's a lot of ways our system
needs to just kind of face the facts that the majority of
people don't have access to the supports they need.
And to your point, I also reallystruggle with the fact that our
system is a like a fail first mentality.
(33:43):
People have to suffer like one term.
I, I don't this, I would love tohear your thoughts on this, but
hitting rock bottom, Do I think that that's necessary for some
people? For sure.
Do I think that that's what we need to get to before people get
access to support? Absolutely not.
(34:03):
We are never going to get out ofthis whole the opiate crisis.
If our mentality is that people have to hit rock bottom, that is
people dying. That's not a rock bottom we
should be waiting for before action is taken.
I get that that's not always what people mean by saying those
(34:24):
words for sure, but there is something that is backwards
within our system, you know, and, and if you think about
substance use as a health issue,like a chronic health issue like
we do for cancer or something else, how many preventative
measures and resources are thereout there to help us prevent
(34:47):
that chronic health issue from happening?
Yeah, it's the same thing. I've changed my mind on it.
I think I was very rigid with with that before.
Like I I really did believe thatyou had to.
And I get yeah. I mean, you mentioned it though,
it's it is subjective, right? My rock bottom is not my trauma
is somebody's Tuesday afternoon.I always say that right?
(35:08):
Like my my Tuesday afternoon is someone else's trauma, right?
And it's really subjective. I've, you know, I, I have in, in
comparison, you know, I've been hearing recovery stories for 10
years now. And in comparison, my bottom is
very high comparatively, right? I've heard a lot of really rough
things going on in people's lives.
(35:30):
And I do think that somebody does have to come to a place,
though, where, you know, there'sa piece of recovery literature
that mentions incomprehensible demoral, pitiful and
incomprehensible demoralization like this, just this point of
like, Oh my God, like, I'll do whatever it takes, right?
(35:53):
But I do also see how that can be dangerous, right?
Because it's very reactive and not proactive.
Exactly. So I'm just thinking like what
is? What is a more proactive
approach? That's my thought with it.
And I don't know if I I don't know if I have the answer.
I don't know if you have the answer to that, but how can we
be more proactive? Yeah, well, what comes to mind
(36:15):
for me is and just going off your point about the I love your
trauma is someone else's Tuesday.
I love that I might steal it. Steal.
It credit to you, of course, I probably stole it.
But I, I think that's exactly, it is like how how scary it is
that if, you know, I'm walking around looking like I'm doing
(36:37):
just fine when really Alex is ather rock bottom and no one is
seeing that because I don't feellike I can say it.
Like that's scary to me, Anthony.
That's, that's like, to me, thatmakes exact sense as to why
people feel so alone, why they feel so ashamed, why there's so
much stigma. So, yeah, I think keep like we
(36:59):
need to keep having those conversations for sure.
And then the system reactivity versus proactive.
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question.
What comes to mind is really individualizing.
I, I always, I I've not always shouldn't say always and never.
(37:20):
But I often hear myself say thatwe need to invest in people
individually. Really, if we could live in a
world where, you know, Anthony was looked at as Anthony in this
like all that Anthony is and where he is and what he needs
and design his own system aroundhim or like resources or
(37:45):
treatment plan for him. And then Alex is invested.
I'm held. I'm kind of like looked at as
this, you know, and whole personthat needs investment into that
person. I mean, could a design, I don't
know, I'm just like thinking outloud right now.
But right now the public sectors, we all pay into it.
(38:08):
Everyone gets access to basically the same things.
But I mean, I don't know is, is there a world where, you know,
here's the funds that you have on an individual basis and use
them as needed. And you might need them for one
thing, and I might need them forsomething else, but we have
access to them. And then, you know, that does
(38:28):
start staring us possibly into like maybe what feels like
privatized healthcare, which I'mI'm not necessarily a supporter
of, but something needs to change.
At the end of the day, somethingneeds to change because it's not
working. And it's it's more than not
working, it's hurting people. Yeah, I think, you know, as
(38:48):
you're talking there, I think I,I always think about like how,
what can I do right today? What are the small cause?
Change does happen over small actions, right?
In my experience, and I think when it comes to sharing my
story and getting on social media and doing this podcast,
maybe it opens up somebody earlier in their life saying,
(39:10):
hey, I think something's wrong here.
I'm not using like John is down the street, like everyone's
going home at the end of the night and I'm in the corner
doing more drugs. I don't like this right?
And it just the ability. So when when I think proactive
like very simply, it's like putting up your hand a little
bit earlier. Totally.
(39:31):
Rather than I'm burning in a fire here, mom or dad or loved
one, I think this might be a problem and then we can
intervene and start doing something about.
It Yeah, like if you, if you we all know ourselves the best.
I mean, we, we the world really likes to pull us away from our
gut. Gut feeling as much as I can,
but the, you know, trust your gut in every sense and if you
(39:55):
feel like you're going down a path where you're starting to
notice, like I remember I've never struggled with substances
myself, but I remember when I was working in the shelter
system, I would respond to so many overdose, overdoses and
deaths and just. Things that, you know, we don't
need to talk about. But I would get home so late and
(40:15):
the only way I could fall asleepwas drinking a glass of wine.
And I would get up in the morning.
And and that went so quickly from a glass of wine once or
twice in a week to like almost abottle in a night like it was,
it was. And then I had to stop myself
and just say, this is not this is not good.
(40:35):
This is over what my body is notdoing OK right now.
And, and on many levels, like not even just the, if we look at
as the, the drinking or substance or addiction as the,
the symptom of what's going on. I was stressed.
I was, you know, working probably 90 hours a week.
(40:57):
You know, I was being exposed toall of these different things,
which many, many people are still currently struggling with
and experiencing as frontline staff.
And there was just no support. And that was the only way I felt
I could, you know, get some sleep and not think about the
images I just saw or, you know, yeah, just try and get a bit of
(41:18):
rest. So I mean, trust that instinct
and that gut because if you know, things are going to be a
couple months away, like you shared a treatment center in
Toronto said there was going to be a three or four month wait,
let's start getting people readyfor that three or four months.
You know, and it doesn't mean that you're not, you don't need
help just because you can make it that three to four months.
(41:41):
You know, like if anything, that's just that's going to be,
it's all going to be more effective for you because you're
taking it into your own hands and you're asking for help when
you start to feel like the struggle starts.
You know, so I, I agree with you.
I think getting that hand up sooner and earlier is great.
(42:01):
And you know, family members, ifthat's something to normalize it
in your family, have these hard conversations because it's just
a reality of the world. You know, it, the world has
changed. Anthony, I don't know how old
you are. I'm younger, obviously, but
(42:23):
maybe we're around the same age.When we were younger, a lot of
this stuff, a lot of the stress that didn't exist.
We're having different conversations around the dinner
table. We're doing different things as
a kid, You know, we've got to really try to keep having those
connected conversations so that at that first sign have help.
We can be like, ah, OK, we've got to like step in now.
(42:46):
As opposed to it just like bubbling it under the surface
and then it fucking explodes. Oh well.
Sweep it under the rug. Yeah.
That was a master of that. We.
I'm just thinking about like, yeah, like, like vaping is one
of those things now where it's like that's coming into.
That wasn't a problem when I wasa kid, right?
I was born in 92. So I know you're you're dying to
(43:09):
know. So there you go.
Not younger than you. But yeah, it's like my, you
know, I grew up in a, in a culture where, and this is no
fault of my parents at all, right?
I had a very good life growing up.
Very good. I had everything I needed and
wanted. It was easier for me to lie than
it was to tell the truth becauseI was so scared of consequences.
(43:29):
And I believe that's not what made me a drug addict.
There's no. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. But it's part of the condition.
Part of the whole thing. And then this whole, like, my
whole life, if you were to draw a corroding thread through
anytime I picked up drugs and alcohol and went down the wrong
path, it was always not being honest.
Like that is like the number onething.
It was secrets. And I'm not telling you I'm
(43:49):
going to lie about it because I'm scared of the consequences.
And then it just becomes like this habitual thing right where
you're like, you know, what did you do yesterday?
And I'm like, I went out to, I'll just lie about that because
I'm embarrassed for or it doesn't even make sense.
There's no reason sometimes. And I'll just lie, you know what
I mean? So that's something that I
struggle with. Yeah, we don't try to think of
(44:14):
I, I wish we had more time, but we don't.
But you'll have to come back, orwe will have to reconvene in
another way, collab serration style.
Absolutely. What, let me ask you this, what,
What do you hope people get out of your work and your story or
message? I hope that people get a bit of
(44:39):
validation and feeling heard andseen.
I got you guys. I have a commitment to carrying
forward every person I've come across professionally.
A client, someone in a shelter system doesn't matter.
Everyone's equal and your stories matter.
(45:00):
And so I hope that feels, you know, validating today and then
from, you know, the work I am doing and going forward want to
do is, I mean, it's the same thing as when I started as an
addictions counselor. I just want to help people.
It's in a different capacity nowfor sure.
(45:20):
But I think it's in a potentially a capacity that, you
know, could really be system changing and might really start
to make the world a kinder and better place for people.
So not to say I'm gonna do all of that myself, but just one
conversation at a time, hopefully.
(45:41):
A cog in the wheel, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, exactly. Again, it's small things, you
know? Am I being a kind person today?
Am I listening instead of waiting to talk?
Right. Yeah.
I love the two years when I or sorry, Two, one month, two
years. Are you a minion?
Are those minions? Maybe if you go into Lake
(46:02):
Ontario too. Yeah, seriously.
Okay, well we'll do a part time.Part 2 We'll have to do a Part 2
where can. People listen to your podcast as
somewhere you're supposed. To no okay, they know.
Okay, sorry OK Are you on socialmedia?
Where do we find you? I'm just a person.
Let's make it about you. On social media, I don't really
(46:22):
have like a big following or anything, but stay tuned.
Maybe by Part 2, Part 2, I'll, I'll have a handle.
Is that what they're called? Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Elder millennial over here. Is your account on private or
public? Private.
OK, yeah, that says everything right there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely private.
I have a private account too, but yeah, everything's over
(46:44):
there. Yeah.
Private person, listen, I appreciate the the work that
you're doing. Seriously, nothing gets done
unless we change high level systems.
You got it right there. We could just be keep
complaining until we're blue in the face and nothing changes if
we don't do so on. Top start to have.
I'm really excited about this role I'm stepping in to next
(47:05):
week. As someone who brings expertise
on substance use, we need more of that in the workplace.
And just if anyone out there needs help, ask for help.
We got you. You're loved, you're worthy and
proud of you for being courageous to ask for it.
Thanks so much, Alex. You're welcome.
Thank you. Thanks for listening.
(47:27):
Please help us grow the channel and like, share and subscribe
for more content. The discussions and stories
shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational
purposes only. This content is not a substitute
for professional medical advice,addiction treatment, or therapy.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction,
please consult A licensed physician, addiction specialist,
(47:49):
or mental health professional. You are no longer alone.
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