Lewis Moody: Tenacity, Persistence and Never Giving Up

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Arthur (00:05):
Hi everyone.
I'm Arthur Dickins and this ismy Rugby Legends podcast.
In each episode, I interview anamazing rugby player or coach to
get their insight and advice foryoung rugby players, just like
me who are keen to learn and getbetter.
In this episode.
I'm really excited to bespeaking with ex England and
Lions all action Flanker, LewisMoody, also known as Mad Dog.

(00:30):
Lewis played most of his clubrugby at Leicester, where he won
an incredible seven Premiershiptitles and two European cups
between 1999 and 2010.
As part of that all conqueringteam, Lewis was also capped 71
times by England and was part ofthe World Cup winning team in
2003.

(00:51):
In fact, Lewis won the lineoutin the phase of play, which led
to Jonny Wilkinson's winningdrop goal.
I hope you find Lewis'sknowledge and wisdom as helpful
as I did, enjoy! Firstly Lewis,wanna say thanks.
so much for being on my podcast,I really appreciate you taking

(01:12):
your time.

Lewis (01:13):
What a pleasure, mate.
And I know I've mentioned italready, but I'm loving your
backdrop.
It puts mine

Arthur (01:19):
Thank you very much.
What I see in your backdrop,you've got a Jaguar's helmet,
what?

Lewis (01:24):
Yeah.
So, I was actually just watchingthe NFL in there.
The highlights on the Eagleswere playing the, Kansas City
Chiefs and when I was, so I'vealways loved American football.
My team were the bears andthey've been useless basically
since I first started watchingthem, which was 1985 and they
won the Super Bowl, which is whyI got into it.

(01:44):
they've not won anything since.
And I got invited to do atraining session with the
Jacksonville Jaguars.
Like, they have this Europeanpathway thing.
And the Jags were doing thistraining program for sort of
young and aspiring Americanfootball talent.
I was, 40 at the time after I'dbeen retired from playing for.
Nearly a decade.

(02:05):
And they were like, do you wannahave a go?
I was like, yeah, I'm in all thegear, all the pads on.
I absolutely loved it.
I dislocated two of my fingers.
it was, if I could have been, ifI could have been reincarnated,
I would be reincarnated as anAmerican football player, it was
the most fun I've had.
I have to admit the noise whenyou make a collision with

(02:26):
helmets and pads and everything,and the best bit about it was,
whereas in rugby, if I did thatnow.
You know, I'd probably not beable to walk for a day.
I'd be so stiff and sore.
'cause of all the padding I did,I, didn't feel any discomfort
the next day whatsoever.
So, yeah, I loved it.
So I'm not a Jags fan, butvicariously, because of that

(02:46):
training session, I suppose, Isuppose I do follow'em a bit.

Arthur (02:50):
That sounds fun.

Lewis (02:52):
I was Do you, do you, ever watch any American
football.

Arthur (02:54):
My dad watches a bit.
I used to really like it lastyear, but then I kind of
stopped.

Lewis (02:59):
Yeah, Mahomes is pretty useful.
They did a whole quarterbacksseries on Netflix, which was
wicked if you haven't seen it.
And it was when Mahomes led themto the Super Bowl and almost
ruptured his ankle ligaments andstill managed to play on.
And oh yeah, he was a tough nut.

Arthur (03:14):
I saw a couple highlights of it.

Lewis (03:16):
Yeah.
Oh man.
In all fairness, I can onlyreally watch the highlights
'cause the American footballgame's gone for so long,

Arthur (03:22):
I know.

Lewis (03:22):
especially the Super Bowl.
But I'm sure you didn't wannatalk to me about NFL.
Did you?
Maybe it as a side show.

Arthur (03:28):
So firstly, Lewis, how did you get into rugby and how
old were you when you started?

Lewis (03:33):
so I got into rugby.
I started when I was five.
So I was five years old.
And I got into it because a mateof mine, I still remember his
name, it was actually a friendof my mum's who brought her son
over and he was really keen togo and play rugby, but he didn't
have the confidence to go on hisown.
So he invited me and I went downand absolutely fell in love with

(03:55):
it.
'cause rugby was, full contactwhen I started playing at the
age of five.
And, you know, just throwingmyself around, tackling people,
getting in the mud.
Oh, I absolutely loved it.
And, so I stayed, got reallyinto it.
And Matt, after about half aseason, decided rugby wasn't for
him and, left, but, because his,name was Matt Foster.

(04:19):
and I still keep in touch withhim every now and again, but,
but yeah, he, essentially got meinto rugby by inviting me to
come and join him.

Arthur (04:27):
What other sports did you play growing up and at what
age did you give him up forrugby?

Lewis (04:32):
I played all sports, athletics.
I loved cricket, I loved hockey.
I didn't love, but I played it.
football, we didn't play a hugeamount of, but whenever there
was a chance, I gave it a go.
I was probably the best at rugbyall the way through, but I was
okay at cricket.
I was like an erratic fastbowler basically.
And and I was the type ofenthusiastic young man that

(04:57):
would get thrown into anyathletics event.
'cause I was happy to, you know,try it all.
So,'cause I was relativelyquick.
I'd get, you know, put in ahundred, then they put me in
like the 800, which was awful.
But I'd still have to do it.
And when I was about.
17.
I remember having to make thedecision between doing athletics
or cricket in the summer term.
'cause we were one term rugbyschool and I decided to do

(05:20):
athletics'cause it'd keep me fitfor the rugby season.
And that was when I knew rugbywas my thing.

Arthur (05:25):
Out of the athletics, what would you say was your
favourite event?

Lewis (05:28):
Probably high jump and javelin.

Arthur (05:31):
What was your PB in high jump?

Lewis (05:34):
Oh, I dunno if I can remember actually.
I think it was 1.50 or somethinglike that,

Arthur (05:37):
Jeez!.

Lewis (05:39):
but it felt high at the time.
When I go back and see it now,it doesn't look anything.
But yeah, high jump.
I enjoyed the running races aswell.
Like the hurdles was alwaysquite good fun'cause there was
an element of jeopardy, right?
'cause you may or may not makeit over the hurdle and any given
point and you're quite close.
So you know, there is thatopportunity to.
Give the person on your left orright.
A little nudge as you're goingover the hurdles together.

(06:02):
but yeah, I really lovedathletics and it set me up, you
know, one thing I would alwaysadvocate for, so I've got two
boys, 14 and 17, and they playedall sports all the way through.
And I just think, I remember myteachers at the time always
encouraging me to do as manysports as possible and I'm glad
they did.
Just, I think'cause thecrossover of skillset through
all the different sports is sobeneficial.

(06:25):
Yeah.
Anyway, I'd, always advocate foranyone that, if you're unsure,
never, choose one sport tooearly because you never know.
You know, as you grow, youchange.
We all, we get faster, we getbigger, we get stronger, or, you
know, however we evolve.
You never know what you'll begood at.
So yeah, keep trying as many aspossible.

Arthur (06:43):
Do any of your boys play rugby Still?

Lewis (06:46):
Yes.
they both played rugby.
My youngest is obsessed withrugby, so he's.
Just got into the first stagesof like, the pathway.
So the PDG, what's that?
Under fifteens at Bath, whichhe's super excited about.
he loves it, loves tackling,super enthusiastic.
And my eldest has chosen a,career in football.

Arthur (07:08):
what position does he play in football?

Lewis (07:10):
he is a goalie.
Yeah, he's a little bit tallerthan me now.
So he is 6'4".
It will probably be 6'5" by thetime he's finished growing.
so yeah, he can fill the goalpretty easily, which is handy.

Arthur (07:22):
And what position does your youngest play in rugby?

Lewis (07:25):
I think he would say it's difficult to, you know, the age
group that they're at, difficultto say what position they'll end
up playing, but he would sayhe's a back Row.

Arthur (07:34):
Ah, you.

Lewis (07:36):
playing.
Yeah, exactly.
Like me.
Yeah.
he loves it.
He loves getting stuck into the,Yeah, all the breakdown stuff,
all the tackling.
He just, he, loves it.

Arthur (07:48):
When did you know that flanker was your position?
Was this your decision or did itcome from a coach?

Lewis (07:54):
so that's a great question actually.
'cause I was a, I was at centreuntil I was 16, 16 and a half.
So my, my final year at school.
So I was playing first team inlower sixth or year 12.
and I loved it.
I thought I was gonna make ithad county trials, didn't make

(08:14):
it into county or Midland as acentre.
And during one of my countytrials at, U18, U16, I can't
remember now, one of the coachesmoved me to, to back row from
centre.
I was like, oh, this is gonna beawful.
And I absolutely loved it.
they obviously recognised that Imaybe wasn't quite skillful

(08:35):
enough to operate in the backs,but I was, I was crazy enough to
operate in the forwards andyeah, so that was it.
I, I was moved during a trial,and, it was like an epiphany.
I dunno whether you've had itArthur, when you play sport and
you just, you're given theopportunity to play in a
different position.
You know, you might haveresisted it because, you know, I

(08:55):
play centre or I play fly half.
But actually because someonetook a chance, went give it a
go, and I was, I suppose, braveenough or just following orders,
suddenly realised it wasabsolutely what I loved doing.
So essentially chasing the ballaround, tackling people as often
as I could do.
And, yeah, trying to inflict as,much chaos on the opposition as

(09:18):
possible.
It was a, wise decision, but Ithink it was Bryan Welford who
was, who coached generations ofLeicester Tigers rugby players
through the academy.
well, not the academy.
It would've mean the countysystem then.
What position do you play,arthur?

Arthur (09:35):
I play fly half.

Lewis (09:37):
Do you?
Okay.
And would you ever considerplaying the forwards?

Arthur (09:42):
I'm not big enough.
I'm only 4'10".
So

Lewis (09:46):
I Okay.
Maybe you got years of growingahead of you.

Arthur (09:49):
true.

Lewis (09:49):
had to play any other position, what would it be?

Arthur (09:51):
I'd probably quite like to play, at centre.

Lewis (09:55):
Okay.

Arthur (09:56):
I quite, that would be a good position to play.
What about you?

Lewis (09:59):
Well, I always had no, well, not an argument.
I always, tried to get myLeicester Tigers coach to play
me back in the centres.
And he said he would do it for agame, and then he got sacked.
So I never got to do it, but Idid, end up playing on the wing,
a couple of times for Leicesterbecause when I was young I was,
pretty quick.

(10:19):
And because I'd come from thatsort of centre position, I had a
reasonable understanding of whatI was doing.
But, but what position would I,I do, you know what, I don't
think there was another positionI'd like to have played on the
pitch other than six or seven.
I absolutely loved it.
It was just, it was made forsomeone like me.
Loved running around, lovedbeing in nuisance, and loved
looking after his teammates.

(10:40):
So, yeah.
Yeah, a difficult one.

Arthur (10:43):
You Debuted for Leicester at just 18.
Can you tell us about that?

Lewis (10:48):
I left school in the June, and my first team coach at
school was Chap called IanDosser Smith, who was a Tiger's
legend at the time.
And, he said, see how you go andget on at Tiger's training?
So, which I did.
So I went from sitting, youknow, in my, in my boarding
house, Oakham school inWharflands watching Martin
Johnson, Rory Underwood, GrahamRoundtree, Neil back, who all my

(11:10):
schoolboy heroes.
And then, you know, a monthlater I was training alongside
them.
And two months after that I wasasked to play my first game at
Welford Road.
And there are plenty of, words Icould use to, to tell you how I
felt in the buildup to thatgame, Arthur, but I'm not gonna
use'em on here.

(11:31):
I was very nervous.
We'll put it that way.
And and I remember sitting inthe, in, in the changing room
and there was guys like DeanRichards who'd played in World
Cups and you know, captainLeicester for donkey's years and
all these just unbelievablerugby players.
There was an 18-year-old mepublic schoolboy just been
playing first team rugby atOakham School.
Literally two months prior toit.

(11:53):
And all of a sudden I wasplaying at Welford Road where
I'd been sat, you know, sat inthe stands, chanting the various
Tiger songs.
So, and I played againstBoroughmuir and we won.
And it was one of the very fewoccasions that I scored two
tries in a game.
And they were both from over thehalfway line, which was quite
remarkable.
'cause every other Try I scoredwas from about three feet of the

(12:14):
back off a mall.
But, but yeah, it was one ofthe.
Proudest and most enjoyableexperiences of my life and what
and when I, what I loved aboutit the most, Arthur, was, I was
quite nervous individual priorto games.
I was quite a shy character atschool.
and I didn't really know any ofthe guys that I was playing
with.
But because I loved rugby somuch, I was prepared to deal

(12:36):
with the anxiety and the nervesand the, discomfort of the
social interactions, and justcrack on with it.
And, I did, and it was the bestthing I ever could have done.

Arthur (12:46):
speaking about nerves, how did you deal your nerves
before a big game?

Lewis (12:51):
I think in different ways, as you get older and as
you mature, you, find differentthings that work for you.
I suppose I'll share a couple.
So to start with, when I, wasplaying a Leicester, because I
got quite nervous, I'd try anddo anything I could to distract
myself pre-game.
So, when we got to the ground.

(13:13):
We'd, I'd go out with a coupleof other lads my age and we'd
just get rugby ball.
We'd do Keepy-Ups, you know,like football Keepy-Ups.
and we had to try and get 20before we were allowed back
inside, and that could take 40minutes for us to try and get 20
Keepy-Ups.
but it was literally just a wayof distracting my mind because
otherwise it would be really, itis really easy to use up all

(13:34):
your emotional energy before thegame.
And because I'm quite anemotional character and quite a
passionate individual, the.
I want to keep all that underwraps until I need it when I get
out on the pitch.
So that was one way that I didit.
as I moved through Leicester andwent off to England, you
encounter a different type of,anticipation and nerves pre-game
because all of a sudden you'rein massive stadium.

(13:54):
You've got people watching, morepeople watching on tv.
so I used to night before agame.
I, the nervous energy wouldstart.
So I'd just find littleroutines.
So if there were things I wasworried about forgetting, I had
a notepad by my bed.
So I'd, make a note of all the,well, we had the first
involvement, so a list of yourfirst involvements in the game.

(14:16):
So it might be line out, scrum22 backs, play whatever it was.
So I had them listed down.
Then if there's anything inparticular like, a call or, a
focus area that I wanted to bereally, clear and focused on in
the game, I'd have that.
And sort of highlighted at thebottom.
And so once I'd written themdown, I could then almost forget
about it and not worry about it.

(14:38):
And then, another distractiontechnique was that we used to go
to the cinema.
So literally switch your brainoff completely.
Just go and sit in a cinema witha huge tub of pick and mix.
You know, the nutritionistdidn't know about that, but we
were gonna burn it off the nextday, so it was fine.
and yeah, and from the, movies,we'd try and pick out a try

(14:58):
celebration.
So whatever movie we watched,we'd pick out a try celebration.
And because I normally went witha couple of backs, they'd end up
getting to do the trycelebration in the game.
I, mean, I might have got to doabout two or three, but, but it
was just a way of relaxingyourself.
And then in the morning when hewoke up, I'd cast my eye over
the list again.
I cast my over the list before Iwent to bed.
When I woke up, becamecomfortable, I've got all the

(15:21):
calls.
and then I had to check that Igot all my kit packed.
So go through my bag, check it,again.
Leave it, check it again, checkit about 10 times so you can end
up picking up so manysuperstitions.
Arthur, if you're not careful.
I remember I got to the pointwhere I had so many little
rituals that I did pre-game.
I was nervous.
I was gonna forget a ritual, andthen that was becoming

(15:43):
counterproductive.
So I had to sort of cut back thenumber of things I had over
time.
But they, were a few ways that,that I used to, control my
nerves and, sort of ananticipation pregame.
There was another one as well asI got further into my career.
I actually found it harder toget to the level of emotional
readiness that I felt I neededto play at the highest level.

(16:05):
And, I worked with a, leadershipcoach and a sports psychologist,
and he gave me this really coollittle sort of tool where he
said, you need three things.
So pick a really important pieceof music that, you know, you
connect with instantly, and youknow, a piece of music that when
you, listen to it, transportsyou to a place straight away.

(16:25):
Might be a beach or a rugbypitch or a changing room or
whatever.
So pick one piece of music.
take a important possession thatis, you know, important to you
and only you.
And then a world class moment.
So in your mind, pick a momentwhen you are playing at your
best.
So when you are world class, forme that was playing for the

(16:47):
Lions against the All Blacks andplaying Richie McCaw.
And my item was my namesakes.
I'm named after mygreat-grandfather, Lewis Walton
Moody, and on the shelf overhere, I've got his first World
War, Bronze Star, and it's so,it's a little star.
So I'd hold that in my hand inthe, change rooms before the
game, and I'd pick a song by theFoo Fighters called My Hero.

(17:10):
And for about two minutes I justlocked myself away, the toilet,
holding the star music on andjust visualising this.
Moment in time where I felt Iwas playing at my best.
And it, I suppose the, intent ofdoing all that was to hype, you
know, it was almost to hypemyself up enough because I was
finding it really difficult toget hyped up for games as longer

(17:31):
I'd played.
and that was quite a, that wasquite a, you know, a cool
experience to figure out, firstof all, how to, in my early
career, how to, you know, calmand stay under control and
repress those, anxieties,anticipations, excitement.
And then as I got older, how doI lean into them and how do I

(17:51):
actually fire them up again sothat I can deliver what I need
to on the pitch?
Yeah.
So those,

Arthur (17:57):
Speaking.
of Try celebrations.
What was your favouritecelebration?

Lewis (18:01):
well, we had loads mapped out.
My mine always endedembarrassingly because I got too
excited'cause I didn't scorevery often.
I scored against New Zealand inmy first game against the All
Blacks at Twickenham and I had areally nice, try celebration
lined up from the movie from thenight before.
I think it was, dude, where's mycar?
And as I scored in the corner, Igot knee in the kidneys and, the

(18:23):
head by, Chris, Jack and DougieHowlet.
And and I didn't get up forabout two minutes, so the try
celebration went out the window.
But the other one I remember waswe watched a movie called
Crouching Tiger.
Hidden Dragon.
And oh no, was it, or was it,might have been another one.
Meet, meet the Fockers where hedoes the whole looking at you

(18:46):
type thing.
And and I remember I scored offa kickoff, so Sprinted chased
kickoff, caught it, ran underthe post against Gloucester and
scored, and I was so excited.
I actually poked myself in theeye.
try celebrations didn't normallygo that well for me.
Arthur to leave that the backs,leave that to you fly-halfs.

Arthur (19:03):
What skill did you have to work the hardest on as a
young flanker?

Lewis (19:07):
Ooh.
Probably the jackal.
So I grew up, in a team whereNeil back, who was the best
openside flanker in the world,arguably at the time, playing in
a similar position to me.
I played six and seven.
And he was remarkable atJackaling so I say jackaling at,
you know, getting in over theopposition ball and stealing it

(19:28):
essentially.
and because I was, you know,probably five or six inches
taller than Backie, you know, itwas harder for me to get well.
I found it hard to get downthere and do that.
So that was something that Itried to improve during the
course of, during the course ofmy career.
I could never master it as wellas Neil Back, but, but I did
improve.

Arthur (19:48):
How did you have any mantras that you lived by when
you were playing or now?

Lewis (19:54):
oh, when I was playing, you know, this, will sound very
cheesy, but it was.
It was that sort of, it was justnever give up.
It was like, and that, thatapplied in multiple situations,
whether it was on the pitch andwe were losing, you know, by 20
points and there was only fiveminutes left.
You know, that desire to neverwant to concede any point.

(20:15):
that, that was probablyinstilled in me from a young age
by Ian Dosser Smith, who was myfirst team coach.
but also in training that thensort of.
That need to impress intraining, wherever I was,
whoever I was playing with,however long I'd been playing,
whether I was senior or junior.
yeah, there was something aboutthat, that never giving up

(20:38):
mentality that resonated with meso that the game was never done.
A point was never done.
You know, a, a breakdown wasnever conceded until the, you
know, until you move on to thenext job.
So that was, that was probablyone is there.
Is that one that I live by now?
There probably is, and Inormally have, I normally have

(20:58):
loads of, little quotes in theback of my mind, but I suppose,
if there's anything I live bynow, so when I retired, I met
loads of people when I playedthat were businessmen that had
retired in their fifties,forties, early, late, fifties,
trying to catch up time withtheir kids again.

(21:18):
so one of the, one of themantras I had, actually, the
only real decision I ever madewhen I retired was, to make sure
that I used my time wisely.
and, for me that was making sureI spent as much time with my
kids as I possibly could dobecause, you never get that time
back.
And, and now that my kids are 17and 14, so I suppose if there's

(21:41):
a mantra to that, it's, beingpresent and living in the
moment.
And, and I've, always tried todo that, you know, whether when
I was playing or, in retirement.
And, and it's served me welltill now anyway.

Arthur (21:54):
Wow.
Thank you.
I'll use the never give up onewhen I play my next game.

Lewis (22:00):
Yeah, you got it.
there's something about chasing,there's never a lost cause.
You know, there was a, Iremember playing the sevens game
and we were winning, and, theopposition broke through the
line and one of the guys next tome said, oh, just leave him,
just save your energy.
I was like, leave him and saveyour energy.
What on earth do you mean?
So I chased him 60 meters backand tackled him five metres

(22:21):
short of the try line, turnedthe ball over and made sure they
didn't score.
You know, there was just that,there's that ruthless competitor
in me that would never letanything go, you know, just
couldn't let it.

Arthur (22:31):
What position did you play in sevens?

Lewis (22:34):
I was in the forwards.
I would've been prop.
Yeah, I was a prop.
'cause mostly backs that play.
Sevens really isn't it?
You know, not many of usforwards.
It's probably a couple offlankers would make a sevens
team now.
But you've gotta be rapid.
There's a guy I played withcalled Tom Croft who was as
quick as any of the back.
So he would've been pretty tidy.

Arthur (22:53):
Is, do you talk, is Tom Croft a professional rugby
player today?

Lewis (22:58):
No, he's retired now.
So Crofty is probably 10 yearsyounger than me, but he retired
early'cause he cracked his neck.
he was, yeah, really talented.
Played for Lions, played forLeicester for a long time.
Super quick.
he was actually a dancer atschool, which I think gave him a
whole different level offlexibility, agility, and
obviously he got mercilessly.

(23:19):
Mocked for that at times when hefirst turned up and we found
out.
but, but it, meant he could dothings on a rugby pitch that
none of us could do.
He was, really talented.

Arthur (23:29):
Anyone ever get in your head before a game?

Lewis (23:32):
I don't think so.
The only time I was everconcerned about.
Who I was playing against on arugby pitch was when we played
the All Blacks.
and Jonah Lomu was playing and Idunno, you may have heard of
Jonah Lomu.
Arthur, or you may have not, buthe was one of the first truly,
you know, athletic, powerful,huge Samoan, was he Samoan or

(23:56):
Tongan, and I forget now, andapologies, but he was just
enormous.
And at the time when, you know,we hadn't seen, Anything like
him.
And when England played him inthe World Cup in 95, he just
terrorised the entire team.
it was like a, an adult playingagainst babies.
You know, he was just sodominant.

(24:16):
And when I came into the Englandteam in 2000, 2001, he was, you
know, still an absolute force ofnature.
And my first game against theAll Blacks one in which I scored
in, I told you about, he wasplaying and I was.
I was nervous about having totackle him.
I really was.
But, but that's the only time Ithink I'd ever been concerned

(24:37):
about an opposition player and,how I would stop them, you know?
'cause I love part of rugby andsport is the, competition.
I love the test.
I love figuring out how good Iam compared to the other
individual.
and wheyou play South Africa,you get to see how physical you
are.
And can you compare with thelikes of, you know, Bakkies,

(24:57):
Botha and all these unbelievableplayers.
When you played the Australians,it was, you know, could you
outthink them because they're sotactical, they're so quick,
they're so sharp.
And, the all blacks, I supposewere a mix of, everything.
So, when you come up againstJonah, that was just a total
anomaly because you'd, we'dnever experienced anything like
it before.
And Phil Vickery was probably 23stone and on my team, and I was

(25:20):
about 16 stone as a flanker atthat point.
Probably quite light.
I remember Vicks being justoutside.
Me and Jonah ran straight at himand I thought, happy days.
'cause you know, Vicks isdefinitely gonna be able to stop
him.
And he literally just bumped himoff and ran over him.
But it did slow him down enoughso that I could sort of jump on
his back and hitch a ride untilenough of us could pile on him

(25:41):
and bring him down.
But yeah, he was, a reallyremarkable player and he set the
sort of precedent for whatbecame these enormous, highly
skillful, highly powerful.
Backs that we see in the gamenow.

Arthur (25:55):
What Leon, Lloyd said is just go for the legs.

Lewis (25:59):
Well, they can't run without their legs after that is
a fair point.
Although I never saw Leon make asingle tackle.
So I mean, I dunno.
He was, I played with Leon for along time.
He was a lot of fun.
He was a very good player.
but yeah, I think that'sprobably a fair.
A fair challenge.
The only sad thing when you'replaying Jonah Lomu is that his
legs are about the size of, twosmall cars.

(26:20):
So gonna get your arms aroundthem around one, let alone two,
is impossible.
we had to go the gang mentalityto tackle Jonah.
If you go into Google and put inJonah Lomu, like schoolboy days
or early career, you'll be blownaway.
'cause he literally picks upsix, seven people and carries
them all the way to the tryline.

Arthur (26:40):
I'll Watch that after this.

Lewis (26:41):
Yeah.

Arthur (26:42):
Did you ever feel intimidated by an opposite
number or an opposition pack?

Lewis (26:48):
So the only intimidation I felt was Jonah really as an
individual.
As I said, I, because I like totest myself and figure out how
good I was.
It meant I, I needed to testmyself against the best players
in my position as well.
So again, that was another backrower.
and that was Richie McCaw.
And I found out pretty quicklywhen I played him for the first

(27:08):
time, that I had a significantamount of work to do if I wanted
to get anywhere near hisstandard.
He was just remarkable.
He had a real, strength inreally low and difficult
positions and I could neverquite understand how he managed
to.
To stay as strong as he did inthose really awkward positions.

(27:29):
but yeah, he was there was nofear or anything like that
playing them.
There was almost an excitementto understand how far I had to
develop to, to end up, you know,being anywhere near as good as
Richie McCaw.
So, I really enjoyed playingagainst him.
He's just, just a reallyhardworking, skillful.

(27:54):
and ruthless rugby player, youknow, he knew how to get the
referees on his side, the best,the, team that I was probably
most excited to play against, oryou, asked about the pack Arthur
that would be South Africa,because I love the physical
nature of rugby.
You know, you'll probably listento a lot of the backs or
forwards talk about, you know,the evasion, the movement, the

(28:15):
creativity that I, there wassomething about the physicality
of rugby that I particularlyloved.
And it was maybe thatcompetitive challenge, you know,
it brought out certain innerqualities that you only really
found out in individuals whenthey were really tested in a
physical contest and, SouthAfrica always provided it.

(28:35):
so playing the South AfricansArthur was something I always
looked forward to, but with apang of, you know, trepidation
because they were massive.
you know, if you watch South,you got Eben, Etzabeth, and all
those giant.
and when I was playing you hadBakkies Botha and Victor Matlock
and you know, all sorts of,Schalk Brits and Schalk Berger

(28:57):
and these guys were just so muchfun to play against'cause they
were so tough and so physicaland you knew if you beat or you
got the better of South Africa,you knew you would've had to go
through some real discomfort to,to get a win.
Do you like, the contact, do youlike the physical

Arthur (29:13):
I like it when there's a, drizzle and it's a
competitive game.

Lewis (29:17):
okay.
Nice.

Arthur (29:18):
What made you successful as a rugby player?

Lewis (29:22):
I do not think I've ever been asked that question.
what made me successful as arugby player?
I think probably my tenacity.
I don't believe I was a, I wasa.
Good quality rugby player.
I was quick, I was skillful.
but my persistence, I think wasmy strength.

(29:42):
The fact that I never gave upon, on a lost cause, you know, I
would chase every kick I wouldchase, you know, defensively.
I would, pressure everyindividual, every fly, half.
I would then move on to the nextone.
I just, there was.
There was this tenacity withinme and this persistence to, to

(30:02):
want to succeed and, provemyself.
That I think probably meant Igot to play for longer than some
of the other guys that were moreskillful than me.
just because I bought maybe adifferent level of intensity.
I wasn't a hard player.
I wasn't tough, I wasn't, youknow, any of those things, but I

(30:25):
was just tenacious.
I just.
I loved playing for a team andwhen I played at Leicester,
playing with my mates, so youmentioned Leon Lloyd, Geordan
Murphy, all these lads that Igrew up with for years, we were
so tight.
And that tenacity and thatpassion grew.

(30:45):
The more we grew and got to knoweach other as a team, the more I
would want to do for my team.
so yeah, I think that's probablywhat.
What made me the, player I was,'cause I definitely wasn't the
most skillful, but, I wasprobably the most tenacious

Arthur (31:00):
What's the most enjoyable part of playing
flanker.

Lewis (31:04):
chasing Fly-Halfs, Arthur! I generally think for me
it was.
I was quite a defensive player,so I mean that I enjoyed the
defensive element of the game.
because of the club that I grewup in at Leicester, you know,
there was a lot of emphasis puton defence winning games.

(31:24):
and my role in terms of gettinginto a fly half's head and,
pressuring him early.
all those types of that, that Ienjoyed.
'cause that was, you You Vother, player, and probably
tackling the tackling side ofit.
I, really relished, you know,getting stuck into, the
opposition.
Yeah.

(31:44):
Those two things probably.

Arthur (31:46):
And speaking of fly halfs, was there any fly half
that really got on your nervesthat you just wanted to smash?

Lewis (31:53):
yes.
Yeah.
Many fly halfs.
Arthur, actually, I, but therewas a guy called Quade Cooper
who played for Australia, whowas unbelievable talent.
Just so good and in one game.
So it was my first game ascaptain of England, actually, he
utterly humiliated me on aboutseven or eight occasions.

(32:14):
I got my positioning wrong.
I got my timing wrong, you know,my height, everything.
I got wrong every time I gotnear him.
And the more I got it wrong, themore he would beat me, and the
more I would then overthink itand over chase it, and the more
he would beat me.
So I think I missed.
Seven tackles in that game,which is my first game as
England Captain.
When you want to impress.

(32:34):
and bearing in mind we had sortof completion, you know, rates.
So if you are making, you know,you are making 10 tackles a
game, let's say, you know, wewould normally have a 95 to 100%
completion rate.
So it gives you like, oh, you'reallowed to miss one tackle,
basically.
And so missing seven, itliterally never happened in my
entire career.
I think I'd had about 60 or 70caps at this point, and I

(32:55):
thought I'd never play again.
And, thankfully the coachesdecided to retain me on the team
the following week, and, and Imade it my absolute mission to
terrorise Quade Cooper for theentire game, which I did.
So from the very first line out,I set up a call, which would
allow me to get into him anopportunity to get stuck into

(33:16):
him.
And I did.
I absolutely clattered him forfirst, first line out, 30
seconds into the game.
and that was it.
Once we'd done that, once I wasinto it, never missed a tackle.
And, But, he really made me,because he was so good, he,
really made me want to get stuckinto him.
Andy was an Aussie, so they'vealways got that, bit of edge,
about him in the chat.

Arthur (33:36):
It must have felt good.

Lewis (33:38):
It did feel good.
Yeah.
Especially after he humiliatedme.

Arthur (33:41):
And what advice would you give to a youngster who
wants to play flanker?

Lewis (33:45):
I would say make sure you enjoy what you're doing.
Don't focus on just being aflanker.
Try lots of different positions.
and if you're gonna focus onanything, focus on, skill and
speed, over, over strength and,all those other things.
Fitness, maybe we'll come intoit at a certain point, but if

(34:05):
you're playing enough sport atschool, you'll probably be
getting a lot of fitness anyway.
So just that skillset andgetting lots of time on the ball
and.
And enjoying playing would, bemy, my advice.
I don't pigeonhole yourself tooearly.
Don't just think you're aflanker from the word go.
You may love that position, buttry other positions.

(34:26):
Try other sports, because itwill all benefit you ultimately.

Arthur (34:30):
How does it feel playing at Twickenham one week and at
your home ground the next?

Lewis (34:35):
I always found that strange actually,'cause I mean,
I was lucky'cause Leicester hada probably the biggest, fan base
in the Premiership during myplaying career.
So we sort of had 19 to 20 oddthousand a week.
so the step up to Twickenhamwasn't, didn't seem as, as big.
Obviously it was, you know, 80,90,000.

(34:56):
So it was significant.
But because also at the time,the majority of my team at
Leicester, seven or eight ofthem, were in the England squad
with me.
So, whereas I think if I'd beenat Harlequins or Sale or London
Irish, the step up would'vebeen, would've maybe felt
bigger.

(35:16):
But because I was training withthese guys who were all seasoned
internationals.
They were so competitive.
You know, our second team wasprobably stronger than a lot of
the premise, the otherpremiership sites at the time,
during my era, which meanttraining was always, you know,
super combative and supercompetitive.
So you had to be at your bestall the time.

(35:37):
So whenever I stepped up intothose England sessions, it felt
very normal.
the, diff the hardest thing Ithink when you move from club to
international stage is, Gellingwith players that you spend.
Weekends and weeks learning to,you know, tear strips out of,
because they're the opposition.
All of a sudden now they're yourmates and your teammates, and

(35:58):
how do you build a rapport and abond with them?
I, enjoyed that actually, and itmade going back to club rugby
and playing against them evenmore enjoyable.

Arthur (36:07):
What other position on the rugby pitch do you rely on
the most?

Lewis (36:11):
I probably think my other back row colleagues and my fly
half.
So, you know, whether in defenceor attack, there's, you know,
there's a real link between thefly half and the flanker,
especially if you're an openside, defensively, you need to
know that the fly half's in theright position he's not, giving
you too much ground to cover.
So you can get beaten on theoutside.

(36:33):
you need a clear, you know,clear line of communication.
and you often have little sortof words or.
or messages that you'll use, inthose one-to-one interactions,
just between you and the flyhalf, that will mean something
specific, like watch the eightpick or, you know, centre might
be coming on a, on, a short ballback on the inside.

(36:55):
You know, there's all sorts ofthings.
and then the other connection iswith the number eight, because
if I'm, leaving as a flanker,let's say the eight picks or the
fly half stood really wide, soI've gotta chase hard to get to
that fly half if we're not.
drifting or pressing, dependingon what defence formation we're
using, I may have to go hard,which means there's always an

(37:17):
opportunity for cutback on myinside.
So knowing that eight is thereand covering, you know, covering
my back is, also key.
And those little conversationsthat you have when you're
binding up on a scrum, you know,you'll be talking to each other,
making sure that you are allswitched on to whatever
eventuality may present itself,but then we would've covered it.

(37:37):
A billion times in training, youknow, because you get the second
team to run all the oppositionplays.
So you've seen it, you've triedit, doesn't mean you always get
it right, but, yeah.
So the eight and the 10, Isuppose for me is a seven or a
six.

Arthur (37:50):
What wisdom do you have now that you wished you had when
you started out in your career?

Lewis (37:54):
I think that's probably quite easy for me because of all
the, things I've alluded to interms of my temperament and the
way that I played the game, itmeant that I had a lot of
injuries and, some of them were,just part and parcel of playing
sport, you know, muscle tearsand, you know, twisted ankles
and all sorts of things.
But, there were probably somethat could have been avoided, if

(38:18):
I could have tempered myapproach to training or not to
matches, because you have toplay a certain intensity if you
want to play elite sport.
but in training, I think I, Ibrought the same intensity,
which was detrimental to myhealth at times.
So, that, that would've been mylearning.

(38:39):
And it's not that people didn'ttry to say it.
I just, yeah, I found it hard tohear when I was a player.
I thought it, may dampen what Ibrought to the team.
So, I would change that now.
That would be my.
My piece of wisdom would be,look after you, look after your
body.
'cause it's the tool you need toplay the game.

Arthur (38:59):
Exactly.
If you had your rugby career allover again, what position would,
if you had to play any position,what would you play?

Lewis (39:07):
I literally can't imagine playing any other position,
Arthur, than, than back row.
I would've given, I would liketo have given it a go in the
centres just to see if there, ifI could have, if I could have
made it.
But I'm pretty confident Iwouldn't have done.
But it would've been nice tohave a run out in one game, at
least.

Arthur (39:21):
What do you miss most about playing rugby?

Lewis (39:23):
The competition.
I speak to a lot of my oldplaying colleagues about this,
and we, all have differing.
Differing answers to this.
I think some of the lads willsay the camaraderie in the
changing room.
I do miss that.
You know, the amount of time youspend together in each other's
company, that's, reallyenjoyable.
You get to know people reallywell.

(39:45):
but the competition for me, youjust outside of the sport,
whether I, know you would, Icould probably make the
assumption that a lot of sportspeople feel this because there's
nothing that compares to thebubble of sport, whether it's
rugby, football.
it's so all encompassing andit's so important to you when
you are in it it's hard toreplace when you are, when

(40:07):
you're out of it.
So for me, it's the competitivenature of training, of being in
the gym, of banter in thechanging room of the matches.
it's having, you know, jeopardyand a reason to want to go out
and, and be successful, but thecompetitive nature of that is
probably what I miss the mostbecause you can't find it easily

(40:29):
in life outside of sport.

Arthur (40:31):
That's the same with me.
I love competitiveness in thegame.
In your view, who was or is themost complete back rower to play
the game?

Lewis (40:39):
that is super easy, and I've mentioned his name already
as Richie McCaw.
there are lots of players whowere incredible back rowers.
But because you said who is themost complete?
just, he was just so good.
Arthur, like every time heplayed, he was arguably the best
player on the pitch and he wasso consistent.

(41:00):
Somehow he didn't get on thewrong side of the referees,
which is a remarkableachievement for a back rower.
'cause I seemed to piss everyreferee off.
but yeah, you know, whether itwas the tackle, the turnover,
the chase, the timing of when hesort of chose to go in and
contest the ball.

(41:20):
yeah, he, was just, and thenwhen he moved into captaincy, he
just had a real calmness.
You could see that he was, alittle bit like Martin Johnson,
who was my England captain andmy club captain, who was a great
leader of people.
Richie McCaw seemed to have, hewas a different character that
seemed to have the samequalities that his team, aspired

(41:43):
to, to want to be, beside himand, playing with him.
And certainly playing himagainst him, he was just
remarkable.

Arthur (41:51):
Did you ever talk to him after the game?

Lewis (41:54):
yeah.
Nice guy.
Quiet chap.
very down to earth.
yeah.
wasn't a big drinker or anythinglike that, you know, in an era.
I grew up in an era where, therewas a, there was probably a
little bit of a, drinkingculture after games and people
would go out and, have, funtogether.
But, yeah, no, Richie was a, anout, out, a professional, really

(42:18):
nice guy.
Obviously he still is.
There were lots of guys likethat, you know, Schulke Berger,
for South Africa.
Martin Williams for Wales.
Ryan Jones for Wales.
yeah, goodness me, you know,Thierry Dusautoir Harinordoquy
there were just so many goodplayers.
Yeah.
But Richie stood, Richie was aYeah, he was the god of the back

(42:41):
row.

Arthur (42:43):
did you ever get any tips from him?

Lewis (42:45):
not that he ever gave me intentionally.
I got tips that I learned fromplaying against him.
but no, I didn't get any tipsoff him, sadly.

Arthur (42:56):
Thank you.
And last question, who of yourrugby mates do you think would
be great on my podcast?

Lewis (43:04):
Who of my rugby mates would be good on your podcast?
oh, goodness me.
You've had Leon, haven't you?
Geordan Murphy would be quitegood fun for you as an Irishman.
oh, you should, have you everhad Phil Vickery on?

Arthur (43:18):
No, I haven't.

Lewis (43:20):
Oh, you should get Vicks on.
He is such a bundle of fun.
He, one of the most passionate,lovely human beings you'll ever
meet, wears his heart on hissleeve.
He was a Gloucester player, whoended up.
Playing for wasps verysuccessful.
the Raging Bull was hisnickname.
I reckon he might him or GeordanMurphy might be, would be my two

(43:41):
names for you.
Does that mean I've gotta giveyou their contacts now?
I won't do it online.

Arthur (43:50):
I also wanna say thank you so much for our podcast.
I really appreciate you takingyour time, Lewis.

Lewis (43:56):
Arthur, it's an absolute pleasure talking to you, mate,
and and good luck with the restof the podcast.

Arthur (44:01):
Thank you.

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Lewis Moody: Tenacity, Persistence and Never Giving Up

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