March 21, 2025 • 20 mins
Tune in this week for: “Becoming the Most Known and Trusted Brand in Your Market: A Roadmap to Endless Customers” with my guest is Marcus Sheridan, Author of Endless Customers, Keynote Speaker, and Partner at IMPACT.
Don’t miss an episode! Subscribe to Sales Pipeline Radio or tune in live Thursdays at 11:30 PT | 12:30 MT | 1:30 CT | 2:30 ET on LinkedIn (also available on demand). In just 20 fast-paced minutes, host Matt interviews the brightest minds in sales and marketing, delivering actionable advice, best practices, and insights for B2B sales and marketing professionals. Sales Pipeline Radio was recently recognized as one of the 25 Best Sales Management Podcasts and Top 60 Sales Podcasts—don’t miss out! You can subscribe right at Sales Pipeline Radio and/or listen to full recordings of past shows everywhere you listen to podcasts! You can even ask Siri, Alexa and Google or search on Audible!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Heinz (00:16):
All right.
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
I'm your host, Matt Heinz.
So excited to have so many of you here.
So excited for our guestsand conversations here.
I wish you could have been inthe virtual green room just a
few, just a couple minutes ago.
Marcus is already on fire, so Ican't wait to release him to you all.
But thank you to those of you thatare watching and listening live
today in the middle of your workweek, in the middle of your workday
(00:38):
if you're on LinkedIn or YouTube.
Thanks for joining us if youare doing that right now.
You could be part of the show.
If you have a comment, if youhave a question, if you have a
rant or rebuttal put those in.
We will see those in the comments.
We will be able torespond to those as well.
So thank you so much for doing those.
If you are watching andlistening on demand thank you
for subscribing and downloading.
Almost a quarter million people havedownloaded Sales Pipeline Radio, and so
(01:01):
super excited for the impact we've beenable to have for people over the years.
Every episode.
Of this podcast, past, present,and future available always
at SalesPipelineRadio.com.
Super excited today to haveMarcus Sheridan joining us today.
He is a keynote speaker.
I've seen him speak.
He's phenomenal.
If you're looking for a keynote,definitely look him up, author
(01:21):
of the books, The Visual Sale,They Ask, You Answer, and his
newest book, Endless Customers.
Marcus, thanks for being here.
Marcus Sheridan (01:28):
All right, brother.
Let's do this man.
I am fired up today.
Matt Heinz (01:31):
You are fired up.
Well, I wanna get right back into it.
We'll talk about the book in a minute,but like you were, we started by
talking about AI and just how I'mnot even gonna steal your words,
just so like human reaction to AI.
I will just call it irrationaland let you go from there.
Marcus Sheridan (01:44):
Yeah, it's very irrational for, you know, in my opinion.
And this is the type of thing, this issubject that gets people just going.
I did a post recently on LinkedInand I got a lot of traction.
Essentially it came from mydaughter who works with me.
She's traveled with me around the world.
I mean, she is, she gets my brain.
Yeah.
She comes to me and shesays she's 24 years old.
(02:06):
She says, dad.
I've come to realize that I justenjoy talking to AI customer service
more than human customer service.
And then she lists the reasons why.
Yeah, she's like, they're patient.
They're not grumpy.
The only goal is to try tohelp me solve my problem.
Now she's smart enough to know thedifference, by the way, between AI.
And some like really cheap chat botassistant that has no value in life.
(02:30):
Right, right, right.
Which sometimes people, well, notsometimes, lots of times we see
people that are skewing their previousinteractions with some you know, automated
telephone system or some really bad chatbot and they're calling that AI and the
reality is that we don't have to talkto humans and we don't really care.
(02:54):
What we want fundamentally Yeah.
Is our problems to be solved quickly.
We wanna find what we wantand we wanna find it fast.
And there's all these reasons and datathat shows this, but this idea that the
amount of comments that that post got.
Yeah.
First of all, the amount of peoplethat said you never had that
conversation with your daughter, which.
(03:15):
What the heck, what iswrong with you people?
Yes, I, yes, I had thatconversation with my daughter.
Secondly was the amount ofpeople that said, I've never
had a good interaction with AI.
And truth be told if you haven't,you probably haven't used any
modern AI tools because if you'dused one that had been trained
properly, it's pretty extraordinary.
(03:36):
Some of the conversations that youcan have with it, and all you have to
do is have a voice conversation withChat GPT right now on your phone.
And you're not gonna say, that's terrible.
You're gonna say, wow, that'sactually really, really impressive.
So you can see that the battle linesare starting to be drawn, Matt,
yeah.
In terms of the clinching of the fist.
Whenever anybody says, youknow, AI does this pretty well.
Matt Heinz (03:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no I literally this morningwas looking at a CMOs sort of an
org chart, but it was really moreof an accountability chart of the
work that they need done to drive asuccessful marketing organization.
And it wasn't as org chart aboutwhere people are, as much as it was an
accountability chart, here's the functionsI need done, here's the work I need done.
(04:21):
And the top half were managerssort of owning strategy and the
bottom half were a bunch of agents.
Right that own different components.
That would've been people, thatwould've been junior people in
the organization and now you'vegot agents that can do that work.
It's not replacing the people.
I think it's upgrading what we allowpeople as humans to do in that process.
But our lizard brains, Marcus,think that's really scary.
(04:43):
Our lizard brains think that likemovies are becoming reality and I think
sometimes it clouds us from seeing thepotential that we can now accelerate
ourselves into to have the job thatwe ultimately really want anyway.
Marcus Sheridan (04:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, at this point, if you're notfeeling somewhat superhuman, you're
probably not using AI the rightway, and you're probably not using
it nearly as often as you should.
Of course, the big debate is where'sthe entry level jobs at, right?
It's like, what doesentry level mean today?
And maybe that's gonna evolve,you know, over the course of time.
But it's fascinating to me.
I do know this.
(05:17):
That the market is gonnado what the market does.
And I've learned that in business,Endless Customers talks about this, the
how we try to fight against the tide.
Mm-hmm.
But the tide always comesup and then it goes down.
It comes up, it goes down.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't care if you moveyour lounge chair or not.
It's gonna do what it does.
Right.
And so we have to understandthat when it comes to the market.
Matt Heinz (05:40):
Yeah.
Talking today on Sales Pipeline Radiowith Marcus Sheridan, author of the
new book, Endless Customers, famous forsaving a swimming pool company in 2008.
Do you have a two minuteversion of that story?
I know some people have heard it.
Yeah, sure.
Some people have not.
Marcus Sheridan (05:53):
Yeah so I started as pool guy, 2001.
Grew the business slowly, then 2008.
Nearly knocked us out, thought wewere gonna file bankruptcy, and the
beauty of pain and suffering is thatit forces us to think outside the box.
I started learning a ton at that time.
I was trying to save thebusiness and I said, okay.
Sounds like the way we save it is if webecome the best teachers in the world
when it comes to fiberglass pools online.
(06:14):
That's right.
And so we said we're gonnaanswer every single question
that anybody's ever asked us.
And we became the Wikipedia offiberglass pools, the WebMD, if you will.
And within a couple years wehad the most trafficked swimming
pool website in the world.
And I started to write aboutthe success we were having.
And that led to a book called TheyAsk, You Answer, and now over a
hundred thousand people have read thatbook, applied it to their business.
(06:35):
We've seen extraordinary results, buttimes have changed with AI and so we
said we have to do a new iteration andwith a new name and there you have it.
Endless Customers.
Matt Heinz (06:44):
Yeah.
And I think people, that used to focusa lot on content for search engine
optimization are starting to thinkabout that as sort of GPT optimization,
making sure the language learningmodels understand what they're doing.
Yes.
I don't think it changes the fundamentalneed for original content and ideas.
And I love the idea that you took,like just questions you're getting
from customers and prospects.
Turn that into content.
(07:04):
I think.
I dunno if you know and Andy Crestodinaat Orbit Media, if he gets a question
in a biz dev process, he will turnthat into a 1500 word blog post.
And now he not only has theanswer for other prospects, but
other people's searching forhim online have that as well.
Marcus Sheridan (07:18):
Yeah.
2000. Go ahead.
Everything's about signals today, right?
And we gotta please threefundamental parties if we're
gonna be successful going forward.
Number one, we gotta please customers,we gotta be known, we gotta be
found and recommended by customers.
Number two, we've gotta berecommended by search engines.
We gotta be known, found,recommended by them.
And then number three,we gotta be known by AI.
(07:38):
Mm-hmm.
And that's not necessarily anorder of importance, by the way.
Yeah.
And, your ability to send out signalsto the market that says this is a
known and trusted brand is gonna becomeeverything to your success going forward.
And along those lines, because we'retalking about it, you cannot build your
house on Google and think that houseis gonna be built to last, friends.
(08:00):
Right?
And I don't care what SEOs tell you thathave been in the game and are afraid
to lose your business, you cannot builda long-term company on Google alone.
It's not gonna work.
Matt Heinz (08:12):
Well, it's not gonna work in part because like
you don't own the algorithm.
It's rented land versus owned land.
It's not a land you control.
And so you start to think aboutlike, what do you have control over?
You have a control over what you say.
Where you say it, especially if you canplant that on own land versus rented land.
And how do you start to get intothe hearts and minds of those
customers if the platforms go away?
(08:33):
Yeah.
The relationship in someone'sbrain doesn't go away.
And even in B2B, we focus a lot onsort of account based, and we focus a
lot on the target accounts we want togo to, but the account doesn't have a
soul, the account doesn't have a heart.
So your ability to actuallysort of live there with your
customers I think is critical.
And , I think we could probably bothrant a little bit on sort of the short
term mentality of a lot of marketerssaying, I gotta hit my number tomorrow.
(08:56):
How do I get leads this afternoon?
Which yeah, you can go do someperformance marketing to increase
your conversion rates, but thatusually does very little to build
long-term equity with that audience.
Marcus Sheridan (09:07):
Yeah.
You know, in the book we talkabout what we call the four pillars
of a known and trusted brand.
Mm-hmm.
And, Things are gonna change a lot in thecoming years, as we've already stated,
platforms are gonna come and go, right?
You don't wanna make big bets onplatforms as a forever thing, right?
You wanna put big bets on our principlesbecause they're always built to last.
(09:28):
And so whether you know, we'retalking today or in 10 years,
or in 20 years, trust is gonnabe fundamental to your business.
Yes.
So you've gotta become aknown and trusted brand.
Well, how do you do that?
Well, here's the four pillars.
Number one, you gotta be willingto say what others in your
space aren't willing to say.
And we got a bunch of frameworks for that.
But you know, most companies essentiallyfollow the rules they've been given by
(09:51):
everyone else and do not address whatbuyers really want to know online.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Number two, you gotta be willingto show with video what others in
your space aren't willing to show.
Most aren't thinking like a media companymost having gone all in on video like
they should, even though many industriesare now video first, tech second, and.
Three.
You gotta be willing to sellin a way that others in your
(10:13):
space aren't willing to sell.
Most aren't willing to do thateven though they think they've
got a unique sales process.
As you know, Matt, they do not.
And finally, number four, you gotta bemore human than others are willing to be.
When I say be more human, I meanmake the human connection with
someone on a very deep level.
And there's ways that you can do that,especially using AI in technology
more than we ever have before.
(10:33):
So those are the big four.
Most don't follow.
Matt Heinz (10:36):
Yeah, I think you, you mentioned sort of how things are changing
and I think, you know, I've been alivefor a while and I've been in business
for a while and I've heard things arechanging rapidly for a long time and
they continue to, but I think a lotabout Pascal Finette and he's like, he
calls himself a futurist and he talksabout this thing he calls the innovation
paradox, and I'm probably gonna paraphrasethis poorly, but he says, the innovation
that has happened in the past of fears.
(10:57):
Appears far shallowerthan it actually was.
Right.
You think about, this incrediblecomputer that we take for granted
all the things your phone can do.
Mm-hmm.
That literally just 16 yearsago, like mostly didn't exist.
And now as we take it for granted, right?
Like wifi on an airplane, thatstill kind of bogs my mind, right?
Innovation in the future willnot be nearly as steep as it
(11:19):
feels like it will be today.
And that has almostalways beared out as well.
And people say, well, AI may breakthat and go faster, but we've been
talking about, sort of a post chat GPTAI world for almost three years now.
And yes, things are advancing, but ourability to think of those as the new
normal, our ability to normalize thosethings in our lives just like the phone
is happening and will continue to happen.
(11:39):
D o you buy that?
Marcus Sheridan (11:41):
Yeah the quote that I like the most is you cannot fit the
future in the containers of the past.
Mm-hmm.
And it's really powerful becausewhat happens is somebody might say,
well, you know, I mean, when websitescame out, you really didn't have
to have a website for 10 years.
Mm-hmm.
(12:01):
And you could get away with it, buteventually you had to have a website.
Matt Heinz (12:04):
Right, right.
Marcus Sheridan (12:05):
But it's like, today, what I've seen, I don't know
if you feel this way, Matt, butI feel like the rate of change.
Since Chat GPT came out is faster than therate of change from the previous decade.
It's like we're seeing witheach new iteration of the tech,
you're like, it's son of a gun.
This is extraordinary.
Like deep research comes out.
Yeah.
A lot of people are sleepingon it and I'm like, holy freak.
(12:28):
This is extraordinary.
Right?
Yeah.
And you know, like agents, right?
It's like, oh my goodness,are you kidding me right now?
The problem is there's still somuch ignorance in the market.
That people just don't realize what'spossible right now and really only
like there's only a couple percent ofpeople that are really into it saying.
(12:49):
Oh my goodness.
And reality is they're gonna justcreate, this is why you're gonna
see billion dollar businessesthat have a couple of employees.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just gonna happen.
It's inevitable.
Even though that's hardfor people to understand.
Can't fit the future inthe containers of the past.
Matt Heinz (13:03):
I remember years ago, and I don't even know if she still does
it, but Mary Meeker, who I think shewas at Kleiner Perkins at the time,
would do her like internet report.
Right?
And there was one year where she sayswe are not far away from for mobile
being the primary platform versuslike laptop or desktop and I'm not
at all a futurist, so in my brainI'm like, there's no frigging way.
Yeah, right.
Mobile usurps like us looking likeI'm on a laptop and, but there's
(13:27):
no way that happens and now youkind of take it for granted.
That's right.
And so it taught me that like wheneverI think something is not possible
or if it's outside of my frame ofreference, I'm like, that might happen.
Right?
You can't say that's not gonna happen.
Now.
You don't wanna sit here and sayevery flash, every fly by night,
every idea, every fad is gonna stick.
So I guess I ask you like, how doyou identify the things that are
(13:47):
going to have some staying power?
And how do you start it?
You don't need to be necessarilyat the very crest of the wave, but
if someone's listening, if they'rein business of an entrepreneur,
if they're a go to market leader.
How do you try to separate thewheat from the chaff there?
Marcus Sheridan (14:00):
The way that has worked for me, the best far and away, Matt,
is becoming very, very self-aware.
And this really started for me in2008, 2009 when I was struggling and I
thought I was gonna lose the business.
It's becoming very self-awareof your own behaviors online.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
Because I knew that I was shiftingaway from traditional media and I was
starting to learn everything from.
(14:22):
Online, like from websites.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm like, well, if I'm goingthis way, obviously this is the world.
It makes sense that the world would goin the same direction because this is so
much easier, it's so much more effective.
It's just a better UX overall in termsof learning, in terms of shopping.
So I said, let's go all in onthis thing called our website and
(14:43):
not do any of that other crap.
That's a distraction.
And of course, you know, that decisionjust changed our business forever and
if you become very self-aware, youstart to notice things like, okay, how
much more am I. Using my phone todaythan I was using it five years ago.
How much more video am I watching todaythan I was watching five years ago?
Like, how much stuff am I rentingtoday versus owning five years ago?
(15:05):
It's like there's all these trendsthat you represent, but you're not.
Paying attention, right?
Yeah.
It's like, okay, how often are you notgoing to Google now and going to Chat GPT
or Claude or something like that instead,
right?
See if this is happening,it means, oh, guess what?
You're gonna do that more in the future,and eventually you're probably not
gonna be using Google at all becauseyou can get exactly what you want in a
(15:26):
better answer, in a better form, in aquicker way with a different platform.
Matt Heinz (15:30):
And I do, I agree with you and I do think that, you don't
have to wait till that 10 year point.
Oh no one's gonna needa website for 10 years.
Well, you don't have to wait 10 years andyou don't have to start on day two, right?
If you think about like innovations thatcame out, if you were hot to trot on
YouTube from the beginning, good for you.
If you did the same thingwith Google Plus, well maybe
that didn't work out right?
LinkedIn.
Awesome Clubhouse.
(15:51):
Maybe not so much.
Not so much.
Right.
And so you don't have to be thereat the very beginning, but as things
start, I mean, and I would say likea realtime example of that right now
might be like Bluesky I dunno, maybethe jury's still out on Bluesky.
Does that actually become a realTwitter alternative, or is that
gonna be like this year's Clubhouse?
I don't know.
Marcus Sheridan (16:08):
I'll tell you the answer.
No, just like I said with Clubhouse,that was such a mega No, I could tell
so quickly that was just a spur of themoment thing, and I'll tell you why.
And by the way, I would callmyself a futurist, but I'm really
good at looking about a year anda half to two years like ahead.
And with Clubhouse, it was so stinkingobvious because I'm like, there's no way
someone is going to spend this much timelistening to people that they may or
(16:32):
may not enjoy liking because it's nevergonna create a consistent experience.
And if you can't create a consistentexperience, it's not gonna fly.
And I was dogging Clubhouseand everybody's like, Marcus,
it's gonna be awesome.
I'm gonna place all my moneyon the one that says that
platform is gonna, and it did.
So, yeah.
But that's why, but that's why it's,we want to be principle centric.
(16:53):
Not platform centric.
Yes.
And what's gonna continue to matter?
Transparency.
Right?
Disruption.
Not following the rulesthat you've been given.
All these things.
And of course, that's whatI'm trying to drive hard.
So home and teach so clearlywith Endless Customers
. Matt Heinz: So we're running out of time with our guest today, Marcus Sheridan.
Definitely wanna make sure you checkout his new book, Endless Customers.
(17:15):
You can check that out bygoing to EndlessCustomers.com.
Before we run out of time, if peoplethat are not proud mountaineers
from the university or from WestVirginia University may not know
about the pepperoni roll, can youexplain the pepperoni roll to people
that may not be from West Virginia?
Yeah, I mean, it's just like one of the great inventions of
(17:35):
West by God, and the way that it worksis you've got this, what feels like a
homemade roll, but inside of it you'vegot pepperoni and cheese and they sell it.
at these different convenience stores.
If you throw in the microwave for about 20seconds and then it starts to change your
life and you're never the same and youtake it with you the rest of your life.
So if you haven't had a pepperoniroll, you haven't lived your
(17:56):
fullest existence just yet.
Matt Heinz (17:57):
Can you get a decent pepperoni roll like outside regionally?
I mean, you're not that far from homewhere you are, but I'm in Seattle?
Is it even possible?
Marcus Sheridan (18:05):
Maybe Pittsburgh.
Maybe Pittsburgh.
That's about it.
Yeah, that's about it.
Matt Heinz (18:09):
The other thing before we go, so I had, until this summer,
I had never been to a Bucky's.
Okay, so we did a familyreunion in the Smokey Mountains.
We flew into Nashville and thenwe drove east to to Pigeon Ford.
And we started to see these billboards.
Yep.
And the one that got me was,it said Bucky's, 45 minutes.
(18:29):
We understood the assignment and I stilldidn't know anything about Bucky's.
And we get there and I'm like, boy, howdy.
Did they, that's one of those things thatyou kind of like, I wish that it was one
closer, but I don't think it would work.
I think it's a, it's justa southern institution,
Marcus Sheridan (18:41):
but lemme just say this and this is gonna sound self-serving.
'cause somehow I'm gonna find away to bring that back to my book.
And that is this Sally Hogshead sayssomething that I just love so much, which
is different, is better than better.
Now Bucky's is clearly better.
Yeah.
But they're very, very different.
And it's the reason why they have aphenomenal following is they didn't
(19:02):
follow the rules they were givenby everyone else in their space.
Mm-hmm.
And so if you're looking to dosomething extraordinary as Bucky's
has done, and they're gonna just,that's a brand that's built to last.
And God bless Bucky's in Texas, right?
Yeah.
If you're gonna build extraordinarybrand, you can't follow the
rules you've been given.
That's why.
I invite you to go toEndlessCustomers.com.
Check out the book EndlessCustomers.com.
You want to get it because it'sgonna give you a system that you
(19:24):
can follow to become the most knownand trusted brand in your market.
Matt Heinz (19:29):
Marcus, you're a busy man.
Thank you so much for your time today.
Everyone.
Check out EndlessCustomers.com.
Some great content insights there.
Thank you everyone for joining us.
Another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
We'll see you back here in a couple weeks.
Until then have a good rest of your week.
We'll see you soon.
All right.
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
I'm your host, Matt Heinz.
So excited to have so many of you here.
So excited for our guestsand conversations here.
I wish you could have been inthe virtual green room just a
few, just a couple minutes ago.
Marcus is already on fire, so Ican't wait to release him to you all.
But thank you to those of you thatare watching and listening live
today in the middle of your workweek, in the middle of your workday
(00:38):
if you're on LinkedIn or YouTube.
Thanks for joining us if youare doing that right now.
You could be part of the show.
If you have a comment, if youhave a question, if you have a
rant or rebuttal put those in.
We will see those in the comments.
We will be able torespond to those as well.
So thank you so much for doing those.
If you are watching andlistening on demand thank you
for subscribing and downloading.
Almost a quarter million people havedownloaded Sales Pipeline Radio, and so
(01:01):
super excited for the impact we've beenable to have for people over the years.
Every episode.
Of this podcast, past, present,and future available always
at SalesPipelineRadio.com.
Super excited today to haveMarcus Sheridan joining us today.
He is a keynote speaker.
I've seen him speak.
He's phenomenal.
If you're looking for a keynote,definitely look him up, author
(01:21):
of the books, The Visual Sale,They Ask, You Answer, and his
newest book, Endless Customers.
Marcus, thanks for being here.
Marcus Sheridan (01:28):
All right, brother.
Let's do this man.
I am fired up today.
Matt Heinz (01:31):
You are fired up.
Well, I wanna get right back into it.
We'll talk about the book in a minute,but like you were, we started by
talking about AI and just how I'mnot even gonna steal your words,
just so like human reaction to AI.
I will just call it irrationaland let you go from there.
Marcus Sheridan (01:44):
Yeah, it's very irrational for, you know, in my opinion.
And this is the type of thing, this issubject that gets people just going.
I did a post recently on LinkedInand I got a lot of traction.
Essentially it came from mydaughter who works with me.
She's traveled with me around the world.
I mean, she is, she gets my brain.
Yeah.
She comes to me and shesays she's 24 years old.
(02:06):
She says, dad.
I've come to realize that I justenjoy talking to AI customer service
more than human customer service.
And then she lists the reasons why.
Yeah, she's like, they're patient.
They're not grumpy.
The only goal is to try tohelp me solve my problem.
Now she's smart enough to know thedifference, by the way, between AI.
And some like really cheap chat botassistant that has no value in life.
(02:30):
Right, right, right.
Which sometimes people, well, notsometimes, lots of times we see
people that are skewing their previousinteractions with some you know, automated
telephone system or some really bad chatbot and they're calling that AI and the
reality is that we don't have to talkto humans and we don't really care.
(02:54):
What we want fundamentally Yeah.
Is our problems to be solved quickly.
We wanna find what we wantand we wanna find it fast.
And there's all these reasons and datathat shows this, but this idea that the
amount of comments that that post got.
Yeah.
First of all, the amount of peoplethat said you never had that
conversation with your daughter, which.
(03:15):
What the heck, what iswrong with you people?
Yes, I, yes, I had thatconversation with my daughter.
Secondly was the amount ofpeople that said, I've never
had a good interaction with AI.
And truth be told if you haven't,you probably haven't used any
modern AI tools because if you'dused one that had been trained
properly, it's pretty extraordinary.
(03:36):
Some of the conversations that youcan have with it, and all you have to
do is have a voice conversation withChat GPT right now on your phone.
And you're not gonna say, that's terrible.
You're gonna say, wow, that'sactually really, really impressive.
So you can see that the battle linesare starting to be drawn, Matt,
yeah.
In terms of the clinching of the fist.
Whenever anybody says, youknow, AI does this pretty well.
Matt Heinz (03:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no I literally this morningwas looking at a CMOs sort of an
org chart, but it was really moreof an accountability chart of the
work that they need done to drive asuccessful marketing organization.
And it wasn't as org chart aboutwhere people are, as much as it was an
accountability chart, here's the functionsI need done, here's the work I need done.
(04:21):
And the top half were managerssort of owning strategy and the
bottom half were a bunch of agents.
Right that own different components.
That would've been people, thatwould've been junior people in
the organization and now you'vegot agents that can do that work.
It's not replacing the people.
I think it's upgrading what we allowpeople as humans to do in that process.
But our lizard brains, Marcus,think that's really scary.
(04:43):
Our lizard brains think that likemovies are becoming reality and I think
sometimes it clouds us from seeing thepotential that we can now accelerate
ourselves into to have the job thatwe ultimately really want anyway.
Marcus Sheridan (04:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, at this point, if you're notfeeling somewhat superhuman, you're
probably not using AI the rightway, and you're probably not using
it nearly as often as you should.
Of course, the big debate is where'sthe entry level jobs at, right?
It's like, what doesentry level mean today?
And maybe that's gonna evolve,you know, over the course of time.
But it's fascinating to me.
I do know this.
(05:17):
That the market is gonnado what the market does.
And I've learned that in business,Endless Customers talks about this, the
how we try to fight against the tide.
Mm-hmm.
But the tide always comesup and then it goes down.
It comes up, it goes down.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't care if you moveyour lounge chair or not.
It's gonna do what it does.
Right.
And so we have to understandthat when it comes to the market.
Matt Heinz (05:40):
Yeah.
Talking today on Sales Pipeline Radiowith Marcus Sheridan, author of the
new book, Endless Customers, famous forsaving a swimming pool company in 2008.
Do you have a two minuteversion of that story?
I know some people have heard it.
Yeah, sure.
Some people have not.
Marcus Sheridan (05:53):
Yeah so I started as pool guy, 2001.
Grew the business slowly, then 2008.
Nearly knocked us out, thought wewere gonna file bankruptcy, and the
beauty of pain and suffering is thatit forces us to think outside the box.
I started learning a ton at that time.
I was trying to save thebusiness and I said, okay.
Sounds like the way we save it is if webecome the best teachers in the world
when it comes to fiberglass pools online.
(06:14):
That's right.
And so we said we're gonnaanswer every single question
that anybody's ever asked us.
And we became the Wikipedia offiberglass pools, the WebMD, if you will.
And within a couple years wehad the most trafficked swimming
pool website in the world.
And I started to write aboutthe success we were having.
And that led to a book called TheyAsk, You Answer, and now over a
hundred thousand people have read thatbook, applied it to their business.
(06:35):
We've seen extraordinary results, buttimes have changed with AI and so we
said we have to do a new iteration andwith a new name and there you have it.
Endless Customers.
Matt Heinz (06:44):
Yeah.
And I think people, that used to focusa lot on content for search engine
optimization are starting to thinkabout that as sort of GPT optimization,
making sure the language learningmodels understand what they're doing.
Yes.
I don't think it changes the fundamentalneed for original content and ideas.
And I love the idea that you took,like just questions you're getting
from customers and prospects.
Turn that into content.
(07:04):
I think.
I dunno if you know and Andy Crestodinaat Orbit Media, if he gets a question
in a biz dev process, he will turnthat into a 1500 word blog post.
And now he not only has theanswer for other prospects, but
other people's searching forhim online have that as well.
Marcus Sheridan (07:18):
Yeah.
2000. Go ahead.
Everything's about signals today, right?
And we gotta please threefundamental parties if we're
gonna be successful going forward.
Number one, we gotta please customers,we gotta be known, we gotta be
found and recommended by customers.
Number two, we've gotta berecommended by search engines.
We gotta be known, found,recommended by them.
And then number three,we gotta be known by AI.
(07:38):
Mm-hmm.
And that's not necessarily anorder of importance, by the way.
Yeah.
And, your ability to send out signalsto the market that says this is a
known and trusted brand is gonna becomeeverything to your success going forward.
And along those lines, because we'retalking about it, you cannot build your
house on Google and think that houseis gonna be built to last, friends.
(08:00):
Right?
And I don't care what SEOs tell you thathave been in the game and are afraid
to lose your business, you cannot builda long-term company on Google alone.
It's not gonna work.
Matt Heinz (08:12):
Well, it's not gonna work in part because like
you don't own the algorithm.
It's rented land versus owned land.
It's not a land you control.
And so you start to think aboutlike, what do you have control over?
You have a control over what you say.
Where you say it, especially if you canplant that on own land versus rented land.
And how do you start to get intothe hearts and minds of those
customers if the platforms go away?
(08:33):
Yeah.
The relationship in someone'sbrain doesn't go away.
And even in B2B, we focus a lot onsort of account based, and we focus a
lot on the target accounts we want togo to, but the account doesn't have a
soul, the account doesn't have a heart.
So your ability to actuallysort of live there with your
customers I think is critical.
And , I think we could probably bothrant a little bit on sort of the short
term mentality of a lot of marketerssaying, I gotta hit my number tomorrow.
(08:56):
How do I get leads this afternoon?
Which yeah, you can go do someperformance marketing to increase
your conversion rates, but thatusually does very little to build
long-term equity with that audience.
Marcus Sheridan (09:07):
Yeah.
You know, in the book we talkabout what we call the four pillars
of a known and trusted brand.
Mm-hmm.
And, Things are gonna change a lot in thecoming years, as we've already stated,
platforms are gonna come and go, right?
You don't wanna make big bets onplatforms as a forever thing, right?
You wanna put big bets on our principlesbecause they're always built to last.
(09:28):
And so whether you know, we'retalking today or in 10 years,
or in 20 years, trust is gonnabe fundamental to your business.
Yes.
So you've gotta become aknown and trusted brand.
Well, how do you do that?
Well, here's the four pillars.
Number one, you gotta be willingto say what others in your
space aren't willing to say.
And we got a bunch of frameworks for that.
But you know, most companies essentiallyfollow the rules they've been given by
(09:51):
everyone else and do not address whatbuyers really want to know online.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Number two, you gotta be willingto show with video what others in
your space aren't willing to show.
Most aren't thinking like a media companymost having gone all in on video like
they should, even though many industriesare now video first, tech second, and.
Three.
You gotta be willing to sellin a way that others in your
(10:13):
space aren't willing to sell.
Most aren't willing to do thateven though they think they've
got a unique sales process.
As you know, Matt, they do not.
And finally, number four, you gotta bemore human than others are willing to be.
When I say be more human, I meanmake the human connection with
someone on a very deep level.
And there's ways that you can do that,especially using AI in technology
more than we ever have before.
(10:33):
So those are the big four.
Most don't follow.
Matt Heinz (10:36):
Yeah, I think you, you mentioned sort of how things are changing
and I think, you know, I've been alivefor a while and I've been in business
for a while and I've heard things arechanging rapidly for a long time and
they continue to, but I think a lotabout Pascal Finette and he's like, he
calls himself a futurist and he talksabout this thing he calls the innovation
paradox, and I'm probably gonna paraphrasethis poorly, but he says, the innovation
that has happened in the past of fears.
(10:57):
Appears far shallowerthan it actually was.
Right.
You think about, this incrediblecomputer that we take for granted
all the things your phone can do.
Mm-hmm.
That literally just 16 yearsago, like mostly didn't exist.
And now as we take it for granted, right?
Like wifi on an airplane, thatstill kind of bogs my mind, right?
Innovation in the future willnot be nearly as steep as it
(11:19):
feels like it will be today.
And that has almostalways beared out as well.
And people say, well, AI may breakthat and go faster, but we've been
talking about, sort of a post chat GPTAI world for almost three years now.
And yes, things are advancing, but ourability to think of those as the new
normal, our ability to normalize thosethings in our lives just like the phone
is happening and will continue to happen.
(11:39):
D o you buy that?
Marcus Sheridan (11:41):
Yeah the quote that I like the most is you cannot fit the
future in the containers of the past.
Mm-hmm.
And it's really powerful becausewhat happens is somebody might say,
well, you know, I mean, when websitescame out, you really didn't have
to have a website for 10 years.
Mm-hmm.
(12:01):
And you could get away with it, buteventually you had to have a website.
Matt Heinz (12:04):
Right, right.
Marcus Sheridan (12:05):
But it's like, today, what I've seen, I don't know
if you feel this way, Matt, butI feel like the rate of change.
Since Chat GPT came out is faster than therate of change from the previous decade.
It's like we're seeing witheach new iteration of the tech,
you're like, it's son of a gun.
This is extraordinary.
Like deep research comes out.
Yeah.
A lot of people are sleepingon it and I'm like, holy freak.
(12:28):
This is extraordinary.
Right?
Yeah.
And you know, like agents, right?
It's like, oh my goodness,are you kidding me right now?
The problem is there's still somuch ignorance in the market.
That people just don't realize what'spossible right now and really only
like there's only a couple percent ofpeople that are really into it saying.
(12:49):
Oh my goodness.
And reality is they're gonna justcreate, this is why you're gonna
see billion dollar businessesthat have a couple of employees.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just gonna happen.
It's inevitable.
Even though that's hardfor people to understand.
Can't fit the future inthe containers of the past.
Matt Heinz (13:03):
I remember years ago, and I don't even know if she still does
it, but Mary Meeker, who I think shewas at Kleiner Perkins at the time,
would do her like internet report.
Right?
And there was one year where she sayswe are not far away from for mobile
being the primary platform versuslike laptop or desktop and I'm not
at all a futurist, so in my brainI'm like, there's no frigging way.
Yeah, right.
Mobile usurps like us looking likeI'm on a laptop and, but there's
(13:27):
no way that happens and now youkind of take it for granted.
That's right.
And so it taught me that like wheneverI think something is not possible
or if it's outside of my frame ofreference, I'm like, that might happen.
Right?
You can't say that's not gonna happen.
Now.
You don't wanna sit here and sayevery flash, every fly by night,
every idea, every fad is gonna stick.
So I guess I ask you like, how doyou identify the things that are
(13:47):
going to have some staying power?
And how do you start it?
You don't need to be necessarilyat the very crest of the wave, but
if someone's listening, if they'rein business of an entrepreneur,
if they're a go to market leader.
How do you try to separate thewheat from the chaff there?
Marcus Sheridan (14:00):
The way that has worked for me, the best far and away, Matt,
is becoming very, very self-aware.
And this really started for me in2008, 2009 when I was struggling and I
thought I was gonna lose the business.
It's becoming very self-awareof your own behaviors online.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
Because I knew that I was shiftingaway from traditional media and I was
starting to learn everything from.
(14:22):
Online, like from websites.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm like, well, if I'm goingthis way, obviously this is the world.
It makes sense that the world would goin the same direction because this is so
much easier, it's so much more effective.
It's just a better UX overall in termsof learning, in terms of shopping.
So I said, let's go all in onthis thing called our website and
(14:43):
not do any of that other crap.
That's a distraction.
And of course, you know, that decisionjust changed our business forever and
if you become very self-aware, youstart to notice things like, okay, how
much more am I. Using my phone todaythan I was using it five years ago.
How much more video am I watching todaythan I was watching five years ago?
Like, how much stuff am I rentingtoday versus owning five years ago?
(15:05):
It's like there's all these trendsthat you represent, but you're not.
Paying attention, right?
Yeah.
It's like, okay, how often are you notgoing to Google now and going to Chat GPT
or Claude or something like that instead,
right?
See if this is happening,it means, oh, guess what?
You're gonna do that more in the future,and eventually you're probably not
gonna be using Google at all becauseyou can get exactly what you want in a
(15:26):
better answer, in a better form, in aquicker way with a different platform.
Matt Heinz (15:30):
And I do, I agree with you and I do think that, you don't
have to wait till that 10 year point.
Oh no one's gonna needa website for 10 years.
Well, you don't have to wait 10 years andyou don't have to start on day two, right?
If you think about like innovations thatcame out, if you were hot to trot on
YouTube from the beginning, good for you.
If you did the same thingwith Google Plus, well maybe
that didn't work out right?
LinkedIn.
Awesome Clubhouse.
(15:51):
Maybe not so much.
Not so much.
Right.
And so you don't have to be thereat the very beginning, but as things
start, I mean, and I would say likea realtime example of that right now
might be like Bluesky I dunno, maybethe jury's still out on Bluesky.
Does that actually become a realTwitter alternative, or is that
gonna be like this year's Clubhouse?
I don't know.
Marcus Sheridan (16:08):
I'll tell you the answer.
No, just like I said with Clubhouse,that was such a mega No, I could tell
so quickly that was just a spur of themoment thing, and I'll tell you why.
And by the way, I would callmyself a futurist, but I'm really
good at looking about a year anda half to two years like ahead.
And with Clubhouse, it was so stinkingobvious because I'm like, there's no way
someone is going to spend this much timelistening to people that they may or
(16:32):
may not enjoy liking because it's nevergonna create a consistent experience.
And if you can't create a consistentexperience, it's not gonna fly.
And I was dogging Clubhouseand everybody's like, Marcus,
it's gonna be awesome.
I'm gonna place all my moneyon the one that says that
platform is gonna, and it did.
So, yeah.
But that's why, but that's why it's,we want to be principle centric.
(16:53):
Not platform centric.
Yes.
And what's gonna continue to matter?
Transparency.
Right?
Disruption.
Not following the rulesthat you've been given.
All these things.
And of course, that's whatI'm trying to drive hard.
So home and teach so clearlywith Endless Customers
. Matt Heinz: So we're running out of time with our guest today, Marcus Sheridan.
Definitely wanna make sure you checkout his new book, Endless Customers.
(17:15):
You can check that out bygoing to EndlessCustomers.com.
Before we run out of time, if peoplethat are not proud mountaineers
from the university or from WestVirginia University may not know
about the pepperoni roll, can youexplain the pepperoni roll to people
that may not be from West Virginia?
Yeah, I mean, it's just like one of the great inventions of
(17:35):
West by God, and the way that it worksis you've got this, what feels like a
homemade roll, but inside of it you'vegot pepperoni and cheese and they sell it.
at these different convenience stores.
If you throw in the microwave for about 20seconds and then it starts to change your
life and you're never the same and youtake it with you the rest of your life.
So if you haven't had a pepperoniroll, you haven't lived your
(17:56):
fullest existence just yet.
Matt Heinz (17:57):
Can you get a decent pepperoni roll like outside regionally?
I mean, you're not that far from homewhere you are, but I'm in Seattle?
Is it even possible?
Marcus Sheridan (18:05):
Maybe Pittsburgh.
Maybe Pittsburgh.
That's about it.
Yeah, that's about it.
Matt Heinz (18:09):
The other thing before we go, so I had, until this summer,
I had never been to a Bucky's.
Okay, so we did a familyreunion in the Smokey Mountains.
We flew into Nashville and thenwe drove east to to Pigeon Ford.
And we started to see these billboards.
Yep.
And the one that got me was,it said Bucky's, 45 minutes.
(18:29):
We understood the assignment and I stilldidn't know anything about Bucky's.
And we get there and I'm like, boy, howdy.
Did they, that's one of those things thatyou kind of like, I wish that it was one
closer, but I don't think it would work.
I think it's a, it's justa southern institution,
Marcus Sheridan (18:41):
but lemme just say this and this is gonna sound self-serving.
'cause somehow I'm gonna find away to bring that back to my book.
And that is this Sally Hogshead sayssomething that I just love so much, which
is different, is better than better.
Now Bucky's is clearly better.
Yeah.
But they're very, very different.
And it's the reason why they have aphenomenal following is they didn't
(19:02):
follow the rules they were givenby everyone else in their space.
Mm-hmm.
And so if you're looking to dosomething extraordinary as Bucky's
has done, and they're gonna just,that's a brand that's built to last.
And God bless Bucky's in Texas, right?
Yeah.
If you're gonna build extraordinarybrand, you can't follow the
rules you've been given.
That's why.
I invite you to go toEndlessCustomers.com.
Check out the book EndlessCustomers.com.
You want to get it because it'sgonna give you a system that you
(19:24):
can follow to become the most knownand trusted brand in your market.
Matt Heinz (19:29):
Marcus, you're a busy man.
Thank you so much for your time today.
Everyone.
Check out EndlessCustomers.com.
Some great content insights there.
Thank you everyone for joining us.
Another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
We'll see you back here in a couple weeks.
Until then have a good rest of your week.
We'll see you soon.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com