July 7, 2023 • 60 mins
In this episode, we discuss Giving Professions: ➡️ what that means, ➡️ how we got into this work, ➡️ shared challenges many of us experience around exploitation and self-sacrifice ➡️ and how to keep doing good in the long term... as well as other topics that organically emerge as we go!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
All
Julia Firestone (00:03):
right.
We are live and so excited to be here withyou again for our second brain tickles.
Hi Malia.
Malia Wright-Merer (00:11):
Hi.
Julia Firestone (00:15):
Well,
Malia Wright-Merer (00:15):
I am so excited to be here.
I'm just gonna share a littlebit about us and why we're here.
Julia and I have the bestconversations, and until now, you've
probably missed out on our secretconversations that we've been having.
So we're starting to share theseconversations about topics that excite
us, confuse us, and make our brainstickle, and we'll be showing up.
(00:40):
Probably on a regular basis, butwe are really here to just allow
our collective synopsis to fireon topics that are relevant to
conscious and impactful people.
So Julia, I wanna readyour bio a little bit.
Oh, and introduce you to the world.
For those who do not know Julia Firestone.
(01:01):
Julia is a certified transformationalleadership and career coach and a
social impact consultant with a focuson providing leadership development
to purpose-driven people andgrowing social impact effectiveness
in purpose-driven organizations.
She is the founder of The PurposeCareer Lab, a career change
(01:22):
accelerator for mid-career and midsenior level professionals in social
impact fields and offers privatecoaching to clients around the world.
Thanks, Malia.
Julia Firestone (01:38):
Can I share a little bit about you too?
Malia Wright-Merer (01:40):
Yeah, I would love to hear about me.
Oh,
Julia Firestone (01:43):
I would love to talk about you.
Malia Wright Mirror is a facilitatorof diversity, equity, and inclusion
and accessibility who approaches thehealing of racialized and structural
trauma through an integrated lens ofcommunal psychology and embodied presence.
With a background in integrativeintegrative somatic trauma, Ugh.
(02:05):
Well, let's try that again.
She has a background in integrativesomatic trauma healing, and she's an
Ayurvedic health counselor bringing anexpansive perspective to her facilitation
of approach rooted in curiosity.
Malia's philosophy provides an openspace for individual processing and
engagement in order to support theprogress of wider cultural change.
(02:28):
Malia, I'm so honored anddelighted to be your friend.
Malia Wright-Merer (02:31):
Oh my gosh, Julia, I am so honored and delighted to be yours.
Julia Firestone (02:37):
So this week
Malia Wright-Merer (02:39):
we are talking about giving professions and mostly just
having this conversation about what thatmeans, how we get into this work, shared
challenges, many of us experience aroundexploitation and self-sacrifice, and
also how do we keep doing the good in thelong term and feel supported as well as.
(03:04):
Other things that might emerge aswe're having this conversation.
I, I do feel like whenever we startthese conversations we start with
a topic and then a thousand otherthings start to emerge mm-hmm.
As we're in it.
So we are also recordingthese conversations.
So we wanna figure out a way to sharethem in the future if you do miss them or
(03:26):
they do seem really interesting to you.
So Julia, You've worked manyyears in nonprofits and in
social impact professions.
So why don't you tell me a little bitabout how you got into this work, what,
what giving professions means to you?
(03:46):
Hmm.
Julia Firestone (03:48):
Well, let me start by saying, Malia, this is
a term I literally have not used.
I've never used this term, and youused it last week when we spoke, and
I thought, what a wonderful way tosummarize what we're trying to address.
You know, I think I, yeah, go ahead.
I was gonna say, I
Malia Wright-Merer (04:07):
don't know if I've ever used this word before.
Julia Firestone (04:11):
That's amazing.
I feel like, you know, I ju I talkabout social impact careers a lot and
you know, I think we hear a lot aboutconscious careers along those lines.
But I think what's so interesting tome about giving professions is it's
actually a much broader, encompassing.
(04:32):
Concept when I think about it versusa, so a social impact career I think
might be a little more limited toanything from nonprofit to diversity,
equity, inclusion and belonging work tocorporate social impact or responsibility,
sustainability, social entrepreneurship.
But there's sort of, thereare a few lanes and I think
(04:53):
what's interesting, when I was.
I was reflecting on the, thelanguage of giving professions.
You know, that's, that includes teachers,that includes medical professionals,
that includes you know, so many differentareas of mental health and, and wellbeing.
And so, you know, it, it strikes methat something as expansive as giving
(05:17):
professions could really encompass,you know, be more about how we show up.
You know, you might be I'mthinking about like trades too.
You might be in, in marketing,you might be a gardener.
But if you show up to that work thatyou do with an awareness, For example,
if you are a gardener, an awareness ofthe land that you're working on, whose
(05:42):
land it really was originally, andwhat it means to steward land for the
beings that, that live here, for the theplants, the animals, the people like you
can be in a giving profession as well.
And so I, I think.
Just to to name that I, I think is aninteresting opening as we're talking
(06:05):
about this, that it might be lessabout the job title or the type of
the legal entity that you work for,but how you approach your career in
Malia Wright-Merer (06:15):
the world.
There's, I wanna share somethingreally quickly before, yeah.
I wanna hear more about your journeys.
This reminds me of when I was 25,I was really upset living in New
York, didn't wanna be an actoranymore, crying on a park bench.
(06:35):
And my now husband said whatdo you wanna do with your life?
And I remember crying and justsaying, I wanna make people happy.
And I feel like there's thismoment in all of us where we
just know there's something that.
We are here to do.
Mm-hmm.
Like a, just this, I mean, we, you mighthear purpose driven, but there's this
(07:00):
moment that that core feeling that is,I have no other choice, but this is
the direction I know I need to go in.
And I think a lot of people in givingprofessions, you wouldn't be in it if
you did not have that core feeling.
And I didn't know whatthat was at the time.
But I remember crying and just saying,I just wanna give, I wanna help.
(07:23):
I wanna make people happy and Idon't know how I'm going to do that.
So Julia,
Julia Firestone (07:30):
yeah, thanks for sharing the, the park bench story.
Malia, I think.
You know, I I shared on LinkedInthe other day that my first career
aspiration was to be a lion when I grewup which I'll admit I have not achieved.
But by the time I we're going way back,by the time I was in, Middle school,
(07:51):
I started learning about I learnedabout hate crimes and the history
of racism in America and, and thepresent context of racism in America.
And it, it just felt so urgent.
And so we had an eighth grade projectthat we could do on any topic.
(08:11):
And, you know, I feel like most.
People did like, I don't know, a bookthey liked or an invention that was cool.
And I studied hate crimes in Americaand was like, you know, 12 or 13,
I guess, teaching my peers aboutlike all these horrible things that
had happened and we're were stillgoing on in the United States.
(08:34):
And I didn't quite know whatshape that would then take later
on, but I think it was reallyfoundational just in understanding
you know, violence, oppression.
Mm-hmm.
Inequity and feeling reallypassionate about those things.
And, and also like as a young personfeeling so confused as to how we
(08:54):
as humans, Could treat each otherso horribly mostly for our own
power and, and gain personal gains.
But ultimately, you know, and it'slike these are conversations I have
with my stepdaughter now who I thinkfeels similarly and has started
her own protest club, which I love.
But you know, I think.
(09:15):
I think there was alsoa lot going on when.
When we were in high school, like Igot to attend some different events
learning about and advocating around thegenocide that was taking place in Darfa.
And understanding, you know, I thinkprobably core in my psyche was learning
about the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.
(09:38):
And, and really just thesehuge humanitarian Horrific
things that had happened.
And so I knew when I was, you know,in college, but also looking towards
my career, that whatever I did had tocontribute meaningfully in some way to
You know, preventing these atrocitiesfrom happening or supporting the people
(10:01):
who were preventing these atrocities orhealing, supporting the healing on the
other side of, of these horrible things.
And my first longing, you know,was, was really to be working with
refugees working in refugee camps.
If I could, you know, I was justlike, who, who needs help the most?
(10:22):
And I really wanted to be possibly atherapist for former child soldiers.
Like that was a, a, anearly career longing.
But I think there's some underlyingpsychology that we'll get into there
Also about this like, Real desire to, youknow, sacrifice my wellbeing and feeling
(10:45):
there was so much heaviness around myown guilt and privilege in this world
and wanting to kind of sacrifice myselfin order to support the better Good.
But there were also.
You know, very, very specific contextthat that I think we both graduated into
(11:06):
that really determined what directionI could go in in my career, my, my
giving profession which was the, thefinancial that we're really going off on.
Like there's a lot of pieceshere, but with the financial
collapse in 2008 there was a real.
Real sense of competitionin the nonprofit world.
(11:29):
And so I graduated very kind ofeager and hopeful to make an impact.
And like, please, like,send me to the field.
I will, you know, like, you don'teven have to pay me, like just feed
me and fly me where you need me to go.
I will do whatever is helpful.
And I, I.
Again, really wanted to beideally in, in refugee camps
(11:51):
and no one would gimme a shot.
I was, I was going up againsthundreds if not thousands of people
who wanted unpaid internshipswith places like the International
Rescue Committee and, and others.
And so yeah, it, it totally shiftedmy focus and I ended up we can
talk about this a little more, butI was in doing some fundraising
(12:14):
for a small nonprofit for a bit.
Eventually made my way into morekind of program focused work,
while also nannying full-time.
Because New York City and yeah, youknow, it, it, it's really been quite
a journey from mostly small nonprofitsand, and I did eventually work
work abroad but not in a, not in a.
(12:34):
Conflict setting.
Fortunately for my parents.
But I, I did get to work and live abroadin, in Zambia and then ended up doing
more work for that nonprofit and ineducation and, and eventually made a
move over to corporate social impact.
So we can talk about that transition too.
Yeah.
But I'll pause there.
Malia Wright-Merer (12:54):
Oh, yeah.
Well, I just wanted to say, I thinkyou shared a really good point about.
This feeling of where is themost need and I need to go there.
But then in reality, everyone else wastrying to go there at the same time.
And it, it kind of pushes aside sometimeswhat the need is right in front of you.
(13:17):
And what is needed in your neighborhood,what is needed right next to you.
And I think, I think we actuallydo see this a lot, especially
when there's there's a lot ofsupport needed in so many places.
But where's the most need?
Let me put all of my eggs in this basket.
And maybe there's.
(13:37):
This flooding amount and yeah,I just, I didn't know if you had
any thoughts on that because justhearing, hearing you say so many
people are wanting unpaid internships,that there was no room for me.
Julia Firestone (13:52):
Right.
Well, I think that's the otherthing that I have, I came to realize
pretty quickly is you know, actuallyme, with the skill sets I had at.
I was probably going to bea greater burden living and
working in a refugee camp than
Malia Wright-Merer (14:13):
I could have contributed.
Oh yeah.
We'll let that one simmerwe lost unpack there.
Julia Firestone (14:20):
Yeah, right.
I mean, you know, and we don't haveto go deep into it, but we know about.
Voluntourism.
There's a lot of cases where especiallyyoung white Americans with a lot of
wealth privilege are going places andyou know, stacking a bunch of bricks
together, so, When they're like, theydon't have any background in construction.
(14:44):
They don't really know what they'redoing, but they just wanna be helpful
and they're doing that pattingthemselves on the back and as soon
as they leave, those communities arehaving to rebuild or, or break it so
that the next volunteer volunteer cancome back and do the same thing again.
Malia Wright-Merer (15:00):
Yeah.
Well, I think this is, this is a goodlittle segue about lasting change.
Yes.
And also when we do, let's say, find aniche or a direction that we, that we
do put ourselves in, in those givingprofessions, how do we sustain it?
How do we feel supported and nourished?
(15:22):
And while we are in these professions,and this might be a good place to
plug in this question that that wasasked, actually, I'm gonna read it.
Yeah,
Julia Firestone (15:32):
go for it.
So
Malia Wright-Merer (15:34):
this was one of the questions that were asked
before we started this session.
Okay, let me see if I can find it.
Here we go.
How to stay in engagedwithout getting overwhelmed.
What techniques do people use forbalancing when they do feel inundated by
(15:54):
any number of things in social impact?
I'm gonna
Julia Firestone (15:59):
start there.
There's more, but I'm just there.
There's lot there.
It's a great, a great, greatsubmission, so thank you.
Malia Wright-Merer (16:06):
Yeah.
Julia Firestone (16:07):
Yeah.
How to stay engaged without gettingoverwhelmed, I think is the first part.
Well, I mean, Malia, you arehighly trained in somatic work
and absolutely specialized inreally helping people integrate.
Challenging emotions and experiencesso that they can, you know, move
forward with intentional action.
(16:30):
And so I wonder, you know, whatcomes to mind for you when you think
about, and, and you're someone whois personally affected Of course.
Yeah.
And very passionate about alot of issues in the world and,
and justice and equity, so.
I guess, whichever way you wannaanswer it, how do you personally stay
engaged without getting overwhelmed?
And also how would you help clientsor folks you support with that
Malia Wright-Merer (16:54):
too?
Yes.
This this I actually thinkabout a lot because is there
any other empaths out there?
You know, what it's liketo feel like a sponge of.
Different emotions, feelings,what's happening in the world.
I know there are some peoplethat have better separation.
(17:14):
I can critically think about this issuewithout getting emotionally involved.
I am not one of those people.
My husband and I talk about this all thetime, and he says, can't you just, you
know, critically think about this topic?
That's really traumatic.
So, And I'm like, no, I can't.
I dunno what that means because Ifeel so strongly, which is why I'm
(17:39):
here, which is why I do what I do.
But I think something that I will share.
And I saw this especially come uparound the George Floyd protests.
Mm.
And everything happening in 2020 likeeverything blowing up at this time.
Right.
The pandemic, natural disastersthe social the social activist
(18:02):
emergences extremes that kind of.
Exploded around all at this time.
And I started noticing myself sayingto myself, I'm not doing enough.
And as if you can imagine what alsoresulted from that place was stress,
anxiety, shame, guilt overwhelm.
(18:26):
Maybe let's sprinkle in alittle panic attack there.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, it wasn't one thing,of course, but I started noticing
how people were responding and howpeople were showing up and how I was
showing up and how I wanted to utilize.
(18:48):
My body, my skills, myawareness in that moment.
And I had this huge, huge revelationthat wasn't only me, it was probably
from a lot of other peers, people Iwork with people I was learning with.
But I started recognizing how much my own.
(19:11):
Feeling of needing to take care ofanyone and everyone was overwhelming.
My response to show up and what thatmeant for me and And I started also
recognizing for me, I knew that I was aperson that was very skilled in emotional
(19:31):
intelligence, very skilled in processing,very skilled in how we are digesting
what is showing up, and I need to takemy own medicine at that time also.
But I also knew for me that callingCongress people every single day wasn't.
(19:51):
The way that I knew that I wasgoing to show up every single day.
And I think also when it comes to theseways that we are showing up for specific
issues, and there are so many, right?
There can be this.
This guilt of I am not doing whatthat person thinks I should be doing.
(20:13):
Mm.
The shoulds.
The shoulds, right.
The guilt, the shoulds, the shame.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not doing what this person says.
If you're not doing this,then you're not a good citizen
or you're not a good person.
And I actually had to drown out a lot ofthose noises and show up and say what?
(20:34):
Where can I utilize my skills thatcome so naturally to me to show up
for maybe this section of supportthat can grow in so many ways?
And sometimes they love to imagine ifeveryone was doing that and focusing
(20:56):
on their unique way of showing up.
Again, for me, emotional intelligence,processing digestion, how we are taking
care of ourselves in the process.
Mm-hmm.
If I can show up in this specificway and implement this in longevity.
So I always say there are peoplewho sh to work in short-term and
(21:20):
term activism that we need both.
That's great.
Yeah, and we need both.
Like, I'm, I'm not saying, youknow, one's better than the other,
but I, I definitely feel like along-term activism kind of person.
Like I'm looking in the longhaul, you know, past when I die,
like years ahead, what's goingto be continuous and happening.
(21:45):
And if everyone is only doing that, Ithink we wouldn't get a lot of change
happening on the floor right now.
So we need both.
Where is that place where you feelso aligned with and so connected to
what your unique way of showing up is?
My dad's on this call.
(22:06):
Shout out to I saw that.
Julia Firestone (22:08):
Hi.
Hi.
I
Malia Wright-Merer (22:10):
just wanted to, to bring, bring him up just for a moment
because My dad and I feel so lucky.
My dad and I get to work together.
My dad has been in the disabilityinclusion and consulting field for
40 plus years and has made waves.
I wonder, he's probably SMI smilingright now, but he's made waves.
(22:32):
In this field and focused in thisway of really supporting individuals
so that they feel as though they arebelonging, accepted, available, and
especially in working environments.
I think that's the main focus here.
But I see, I feel so lucky to growup in a household where my dad
(22:53):
and also my mom had this focus.
I'm going to help.
People with disabilities, disabled peopleto, and, and shifting the perspectives
of other people so that we are notletting bias or stereotypes get in
the way of hiring individuals, workingwith individuals with disabilities.
(23:16):
That is this core niche.
A huge coordination of that isself-advocacy and also believing
in people getting out of that that.
First barrier, and howdo we just see people?
And my dad's been in thisfield for 40 plus years.
(23:37):
He, he doesn't know this, but I thinkhe's kind of a celebrity in this field.
Everyone knows him, but I thinkthere's like this, this piece of.
Following where that is, where youknow you can support this area.
There are going be a thousand other issuesthat we can support on the sidelines.
(23:59):
We want belonging.
We want to dismantle these systems.
We want to soften thisintensity of power structures.
Of course, but we, I think it's soimportant to find the space where
you can say, okay, this is where Ican show up, and this is if I give it
(24:21):
my heart and my fullness is enough.
Julia Firestone (24:28):
That's huge, Malia and I, I think what you do in, in naming that
is also give us permission to both tofocus in and not have to do everything.
And I think there's also this sort of,I'm gonna be a little cheeky for a minute.
I think the like inverse of that,which is also part of our psychology,
(24:51):
I think as people who care deeply aboutdoing good in the world, and a little
bit of like what I felt coming intomy career is kind of an overinflated
ego about how much impact we can have.
Oh yes.
Right.
And so, You know, there, we had a,a brutal week last week in the US in
(25:13):
terms of Supreme Court cases, justtotally can I use the word terrorizing?
Us as, as human beings human rightsand like they really championed
the already wealthy white.
Cisgender straight dudes out there.
Someone needs to champion them.
Right.
No, that's sarcasm.
But you know, I think the realityis me as one person and, and I
(25:38):
feel like we're told, like you asone person can change the world.
Mm-hmm.
But also me as oneperson, I am not going to.
Change those Supreme Court decisions.
No matter how pissed off I am, no matterhow devastated I am, like it's, it's
not going to change that current moment.
(25:59):
There are plenty of constructive waysthat we can change things, but if
my focus is on changing every singlepolicy all at once, I'm just simply
not going to accomplish anything.
And, and it does require anoverinflated ego to think that
any one person can do all of thosethings all the time, like Right.
(26:20):
I think that's, it's it's a, acheeky take, but I think it also
comes back to the same point.
I think you're making Malia of like,you don't have to do everything
nor is it humanly possible.
Yeah.
Malia Wright-Merer (26:33):
Yeah.
And I think also I.
Kind of talking on thisinflated ego aspect of things.
And this is, this is a, a little,it's, it's a little more controversial
and I guess in public space spaces,what I'm about to say, but also in
very trauma, trauma-informed spaces.
(26:53):
This is not very controversial at all.
Julia Firestone (26:56):
Ok.
Brilliant.
And I come
Malia Wright-Merer (26:57):
from a very trauma-informed space, but but I think.
You know, when we're talking abouttrying to do everything, I think
there's partially some of the thingsyou said, oh, I need to make up
for things that my past family did.
And we're talking more on the,the white bodied side of course.
(27:19):
Mm-hmm.
But also like all, all bodies areIntegrated into the white supremacy
culture that we've, if you're,if you're living in basically
Northern America United States,like you've grown up with that.
And so I think there's this, thisoverwhelming need to fix what has been
(27:40):
done in the past without digesting orprocessing where that lives in your
body, which is what I geek out about.
But also, I think this is thecontroversial thing is that I just
remember so many people saying,if you're not doing this, then
you are, you are the problem.
(28:02):
Fill in the blank.
I, and here's my issue with that.
It's not that we shouldn't be doing thosethings that people are asking for, and
I hope people are doing those things.
But what happens in the nervoussystem, what happens in the body
in that point is that we, we do notin that moment feel probably safe.
(28:25):
Mm-hmm.
Probably like we belong and there, theremight be multiple things happening.
Activation maybe that's a fight, which is.
Okay, I'm gonna fight for this, right?
Which is not, I'm not saying anyof these things are good or bad.
There might be a collapse.
(28:46):
Oh, no, I'm not doing it.
I'm, I'm ashamed, I'm not doing enough.
There might be a freeze.
I can't move.
I'm frozen.
I can't act.
And I saw this happenagain and again and again.
People saying for rightful reasons.
(29:07):
If you're not doing this,then it's part of the problem.
But the thing is, we live in theproblem and to immediately separate
ourselves from that problem is like,I don't, I don't know what I, what.
It's like having a gash on your,on your knee and saying, Nope.
Doesn't exist.
(29:27):
Yeah.
And you're like, but the gash is
Julia Firestone (29:30):
there.
Malia Wright-Merer (29:31):
Right.
And it needs to heal.
So I think all of this being saidabout doing enough, or like the ego
or the nervous system response ofthat enoughness is where can I pause?
Where can I settle into my body?
(29:52):
Where can I take care of myself?
And then from that placeof, of grounded fire,
Julia Firestone (30:04):
Yes, and I think.
I, I, I don't think whatyou said was controversial.
I think maybe I'm closeenough to trauma-informed
Malia Wright-Merer (30:13):
spaces like it, I did give a trauma-informed perspective on it.
Yes.
Julia Firestone (30:19):
Well, I think part of what you're talking
about is hypervigilance.
Yeah.
And acting out of trauma.
There's a whole component ofwhite supremacy culture that
Tim Okun talks about mm-hmm.
Of urgency.
Right.
And getting it right.
Which is some of the shameand all of that that comes up.
But I think also it's so important toname that when you're talking about
(30:40):
the the care for oneself, which likeself-care has totally been chomped up by
buzzworthy, buzzword by the, the Goops ofthe world the Gwyneth Paltrows and such.
Tell me if I'm wrong, I think you'rereferring to more of like Audre Lords.
Way of approachingself-care, which is mm-hmm.
(31:01):
It's not, it's not really aboutwhite bodied people getting bubble
baths or like, like shirkingresponsibility or accountability.
That's, that's not the point.
Right.
The point is that it is radical for peoplewho are harmed by oppressive systems.
(31:22):
So, And told they're less thanand treated poorly to take amazing
care and, and love for themselves.
Well I also wanna
Malia Wright-Merer (31:31):
add to that challenge me.
Cause, cause yeah.
I, I'm gonna challenge youcause you know, yes, completely.
People who are harmed take,take care of yourself.
But I, I think I will alsoadd that there has been
Julia Firestone (31:45):
harm to everybody.
Malia Wright-Merer (31:49):
In this?
Mm-hmm.
I think especially when we're thinkingof white bodied, you know, white,
white supremacy, white bodied supremacythere is this belief that, that white
bodies are, are, have more access,more entitlement more availability.
(32:10):
Two things.
There has been a benefit,but what also that harm has
caused is a disconnection Mm.
To the world, and I think that is harm.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I, I do not know onewhite body person who's like
who has not had that experience,whether they're aware of it or not.
(32:35):
Mm.
Yeah.
And so, and I think overall, likeI, I, I, I also do processing with
racialized trauma, and I think everysingle person has racialized trauma.
Very different meanings of it.
Mm, very different meanings of it.
But in a white body, that mightbe this false idea that your
(32:59):
body is better than other bodies.
And this myth of that and whatthat starts to create in the brain
and also adds on more of thissense of, oh, I need to be enough.
I need to be better.
I need to achieve.
All of these things are linked.
So in that challenge,yeah, everyone needs care.
(33:24):
But I think you're right insaying it's not always like
white bodies babble B bubble.
Right?
It might be a bubble bath, but it'salso not taking away accountability
for digesting and processing wherewe play a role in those parts.
Julia Firestone (33:37):
Right.
And I think the yeah, I, no, I'ma hundred percent with you, Alia.
I think that the way that Audre Lordetalked about self-care, Was specific to, I
think was really specific to black people.
Yeah, definitely.
And, and sh I'll just, I'll give herthe, read the quote if that's okay too.
(33:59):
She said, caring for myselfis not self-indulgence.
It is self-preservation.
And that is an act of political warfare.
Yes.
Right.
And so it, it like feels very different.
Like a Gwyneth Paltrow,not to just like parade her
Malia Wright-Merer (34:14):
says the same thing.
Right?
She, if
Julia Firestone (34:16):
she takes that right, like self-care out of that context.
And this happens a lot, right?
Removes all of the context.
That's so important.
Yeah.
But yeah, I,
Malia Wright-Merer (34:28):
I think, I think this is a, this is another conversation I'm.
Woo.
But I do also wanna talk about youknow what, what happens when we
are in these giving professions?
And so we're showingup, we're in our niche.
We feel like we have a, a vision,a purpose that we want to go into.
(34:48):
And then how, how do we get paid?
Julia?
Ooh,
Julia Firestone (34:54):
thanks for wheeling us in Malia.
This, it does feel like awhole other conversation.
This like beautiful rhizomeof our dialogue that will yep.
Lead us to our next topic.
But yeah, you know, Ithink there's, there's.
So much we can talk about when itcomes to actually the, like the, the
working and the giving professions.
(35:14):
You know, I think there's like,maybe we could start by talking
about nonprofits a little bit.
And I think we have some folkswho have worked or do work in
nonprofits listening in right now.
You know, I, I think onething that's wild is.
That when you have only worked innonprofits, you may not actually be
aware of what is and isn't a toxic orunhealthy culture in an organization.
(35:40):
And, and I think people primarily go intowork in nonprofits with good intentions,
wanting to be of service, wanting tomake meaningful impact in the world.
I think there, there is a muchsmaller group that probably gets.
A disproportionate spotlight who is therebecause they, you know, come from a lot
of money are using that money to do good.
(36:03):
But also, you know, probably toget some some big acknowledgements
and ego boosts by doing it.
But they're, they, I think, shouldnot be the stars of the show, right?
I think there's, it's like all of thepeople who choose to take probably a
lower salary than they might have hadin a different field who are choosing
to do work constantly thinking about howdo strategically make the most positive
(36:28):
impact for the people they're serving.
You know, they, they deserve a lot morerecognition and I'm so conscious of
how, of literally hundreds of storiesI've heard of those people who show up
to do this work with, you know, fullhearts and like clear visions and, and
(36:49):
wanting to make a great impact and whoare treated like, Trash or just not
valued in the ways they need to be.
And, and, you know, you mightbe like in a position where
you can take that lower salary.
There's a whole piece aroundthat also, which means that.
That only certain people have theprivilege to take that lower salary,
(37:10):
and that means that people who don'thave that privilege can't work in that
field, and we can collectively organizeand prevent that from being the case.
I feel like that's also mm-hmm.
Laboring and social impact.
We're, we're just gonna talk about that.
And white supremacy andtrauma on every single.
But but you know, I think there's a realneed for, I come back to it, we talked
(37:35):
about this last week too, to transparency,which is the more openly we can share our
stories and our experiences working in,in nonprofits and in social impact the
more we can start to recognize patternsof ways of working, of things outside
of the actual like mission and impactwe're trying to make that are, are not.
(37:56):
Serving us for the long run and areactively, you know, burning people out.
So, you know, I, I, I wonder tooMalia, cause I know you haven't worked
in, have you worked in nonprofits?
No, I've
Malia Wright-Merer (38:11):
worked with nonprofits, but I've never, I've
never actually had a full-time job.
Julia Firestone (38:18):
How cool.
Malia Wright-Merer (38:19):
I love that.
I've always worked freelance, so yeah.
Yeah, so I've nev I've never actuallyworked in a specific nonprofit.
Space.
Mm-hmm.
But I have worked with nonprofitsand I think you know, my experience
is not as developed as other people.
(38:39):
Mm-hmm.
But I think one question that I wantto bring up, or, or inquiry in this is,
is that as an individual who lives in,we're just gonna say the United States.
We, we have to make money in this system.
(39:01):
Mm-hmm.
And we have to have food on our tableand we have to have a roof over our head.
And some of us might need a car if that'savailable in the space that you're in.
But I think there's this common,what I've heard a lot too is a
common feeling of saying yes to less.
(39:23):
Because you are doing itfor the good of humanity.
And I also wanna bring in thatinvitation and curiosity around what
does that mean for you as you areworking for the Good of Humanity.
(39:47):
Mm.
Julia Firestone (39:51):
I mean, I'm tempted to go back to like coaching mode
and also self, self-reflectionand say it, it means that you are
attributing less value to yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Because you are acceptingbeing undervalued basically.
Malia Wright-Merer (40:11):
Yeah.
Julia Firestone (40:12):
And I, I mean, I felt those pressures
early on in my career, right?
To take like the 30 k salary with nohealthcare benefits at a nonprofit.
And I did not feel, I'll use theword resourced to the point where I
could live a decent, healthy life.
Mm-hmm.
Malia Wright-Merer (40:32):
In New York City, by the way, in new.
Julia Firestone (40:34):
In New York City and I, there's, there's a, I think a
really common dynamic that also comesup in nonprofits alongside this is when
negotiating for a salary, especiallyif you're already on the inside, right?
Like we have, we've had, so muchhas changed in terms of salary
transparency since I was enteringnonprofits you know, 13 years ago.
(40:59):
But.
When, when you're already in anorganization and negotiating a salary
increase So many people in nonprofitsfind this this kind of argument used
of, like, Malia, we would love togive you more money, but every single
dollar more we give you takes awayfrom our programming and our, our,
(41:24):
the recipients of our programming.
And so, no.
Malia Wright-Merer (41:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've never heard that before.
Julia Firestone (41:32):
No.
I wish we had, I think wehave reactions on here.
We don't have like chat or hand raising,but maybe by a show of reactions.
This is not recorded.
LinkedIn friends feel free to give us alittle reaction, if that sounds familiar.
Malia Wright-Merer (41:48):
Oh my gosh.
We got so, yep.
Yeah, we got some thumbs up.
Julia Firestone (41:52):
Wow.
I, I think,
Malia Wright-Merer (41:54):
I mean, I, of course I haven't worked in specifically nonprofits,
but I've consulted with nonprofits.
I think the, the biggest shock here iswhat, what I'm hearing in that comment is
you know, you're showing up for this work.
A and out of the goodness of yourheart should be everything that we
need to do or you need, you needto do to be able to do this job.
(42:16):
And that my, my thing here isthis creates a cycle of scarcity.
Of not, again, not enoughness, is thatif we are not able to support this
individual who is supporting these otherpeople and bringing these resources, then
it is a downward spiral of not enough.
(42:39):
Yep.
And part of me, and I'm a dreamer.
I'm definitely a dreamer,but I am just like, there's
gotta be more space for this.
There has to be more there.
It exists, it exists in the world.
I can't remember.
I was looking up like how muchmoney exists in the world.
And I was like, wow, if thismuch money exists in the
(43:01):
world, what are we all doing?
Saying yes to low pays.
And I know that money is not always inpeople's pockets, but I'm so curious
about how this exchange and this flowstarts to to work when we start giving
and receiving in ways that are so.
Re or reciprocal, right?
(43:22):
And I, you know, just that kind of breaksmy heart because, because right there,
somebody is saying to you in this, or, youknow, hypothetical, you, someone is saying
to you you know, we can't have both.
Yeah, we can't, we can't pay youand we can't support these people.
(43:45):
So now it's on you.
I'm putting thisresponsibility as you, mm-hmm.
As an individual to make thischoice for this organization.
Julia Firestone (43:58):
It's deeply manipulative.
Malia Wright-Merer (44:00):
Yeah.
Wow.
I'm just here
Julia Firestone (44:05):
for both.
Both.
Both and well, I mean, there's a,there's a larger context too whereby,
you know there was a, a big trend andcontinues to be this idea that if a
nonprofit has more than 10% overhead,as in like paying towards operational
costs like staff then you shouldn'tdonate to them and nonprofits.
(44:29):
Like annual reports and, and their,their donations, all of that is
publicly available on GuideStar.
It's online.
So donors Including foundationscan look that information up.
And what it actually means is thateveryone's kind of fudging the
numbers, so it looks like theiroverhead is 10% or less, which is wild.
(44:52):
And so there's like a whole systemslevel problem that contributes
further to this issue of chronicallyunderpaying folks who work in nonprofits.
Some of it is, you know, the, likeNew York Times editorial people
who keep writing stories about, youknow, don't donate to nonprofits
with overheads more than 10%.
(45:14):
Right.
That's a problem.
And they like, they look to justa couple nonprofits where the,
the executive director is making.
What appears to be a huge amountof money we can, that's like
a different question, right?
But I, I believe, although this isnot the case, I don't think in many
organizations at all, but I believevery strongly in the the executive of
an organization making no more thanfour times the lowest paid person there.
(45:37):
I
Malia Wright-Merer (45:38):
was just gonna ask you to talk about that and the pirate,
what's that pirate book it called again?
Yeah.
Julia Firestone (45:44):
Which should all be pirates.
It's called Be more pirate B More pirate.
Be more pirate.
It's on my shelf.
I can't see his name, but I'll,I'll leave the, the notes.
Yeah.
Be more pirate that the
Malia Wright-Merer (45:57):
lowest person, the lowest sal or
salaried person should be paid.
Or the highest salary personshould not be paid more than four
times the lowest salary person.
Mm-hmm.
Which, you know, somebody mightsay oh my gosh, the highest salary
person's gonna make so little
Julia Firestone (46:16):
and
Malia Wright-Merer (46:17):
nope, it's actually the opposite.
The lowest salary person'sgonna just make that much more.
Julia Firestone (46:23):
I think that's what it needs to be.
Right?
Yep.
I, and then the other side of it too,I think is Is the funders and not,
not like the individual donors, butthinking about funding mechanisms.
Right?
Like not, I, I see.
Even though I come from nonprofitsand support a lot of people who work
in nonprofits, I see nonprofits assupplemental to government services and.
(46:48):
My ideal would be that the governmentwas providing the services.
That's all of they do.
Malia Wright-Merer (46:52):
It also, you know, also
Julia Firestone (46:54):
depends on, you do a lot.
They do.
And also depends on who isin government and if you can
trust them to actually do that.
So I understand that continuity andlike security issue around nonprofits.
But so.
But in terms of hownonprofits get funding, right?
There's individual donors,there's grant funding, there's
foundations, philanthropy, and.
(47:16):
I think we need to see more kind ofradical funding mechanisms that say we
are going to ensure all of the peoplewho do work for your organization are
paid fairly, have all their medical care,like yes, really advocating for this.
And I would love to share aquick, we're onto like, Pay again.
(47:40):
But I'd love to share a, like, superquick anecdote about my, my dear
friend, I think I'm not gonna nameher in case this is all private.
But a friend of mine who works for afamily foundation I won't even say where,
shared that one of their their partnersthat they fund reached out to talk about.
(48:02):
You know, the next, or or rather myfriend reached out to one of one of these
partners they had funded to talk aboutwhat their next round of funding would
look like and what it would go towards.
And the partner said, well, wewere thinking we could start this
new program that you could fund.
And you know how like that's kind of thenormal thing that happens in nonprofits
(48:22):
is they're like, oh, we'll build thisthing so that you have reason to fund it.
And my friend stopped her and said,Aren't you eight months pregnant?
And the partner said, well, yeah,but you know, don't worry about me.
Like I'm gonna be fine.
And my friend said, what?
(48:43):
What are you doing for your.
Leave.
Like, are you, do youhave a plan in place?
Are you getting paid for that?
Do you have someonestepping in to replace you?
And this partner was like, oh, no, no.
I'm just like, I'm justnot gonna get paid.
It's fine.
And my friend was like, actually, ifyou're okay with this, we would really
like to fund your parental leave for threemonths and pay you fully while you're out
Malia Wright-Merer (49:09):
and pay the person
Julia Firestone (49:10):
who's replacing you.
How does that sound?
His partner was like, wait, are you sure?
And my friend was like, yeah, yeah,you're not going on leave unpaid.
And I just feel like, I thinkwe need to see more funders.
This is a, a small organization, but.
It's like a total shift in thinkingof like, are you cared for?
(49:32):
Yes.
And if we can start from a place of carefor our people in giving professions.
And, and in that I am including,it's not just nonprofits.
It is it is nurses, teachers, itis like across the board, people in
giving professions My phone is buzzing.
Sorry.
And my husband's baking a cake, so Ihope that hasn't been distracting, but
(49:55):
it is like, how do we start from a placeof ensuring that those people who are
showing up with care in the world, I.
Are resourced in the ways that theyneed to be and, and also that they
start expecting that of all of us,
Malia Wright-Merer (50:10):
I think to kind of put a bow on this and going through all the
topics of feeling resourced emotionally.
Feeling resourced financially andalso being able to show up and
give the support and have thatintegrity of what you do care about.
Comes back to transparency.
(50:30):
This is gonna be like our through linetheme consistently is transparency.
There was something that yousaid about what if when people
were Donating to organizations.
If an organization had a pact that wascreating livable wages and benefits for
all employees, and that was what you werethat you were donating and investing in.
(50:53):
That was part of the story.
You know what happens when westart to have these conversations
more with other people?
Julie and I are having this conversationnow with you all here, but what happens
when this con conversation keepscontinuing and people start talking
about it more and creating more ofan understanding of the systems that
(51:16):
are in place of, of if you are ina giving profession, then you might
not be able to ask for that much.
Mm.
Because it's a, something that you'regiving in the goodness of your heart.
I, I taught yoga for 10 years.
One, know what peoplepay, what do people pay?
(51:36):
I mean, that's not peoplelike studios, you know?
Yeah.
$25 an hour, maybe 50, 75.
It's if it's a good class and you know, I.
It's it, and it shows you notonly with giving professions,
but creative professions, peoplewho are giving to community of
(51:59):
giving support to other bodies.
You can see that there is a valuethat is not always important or
celebrated because it's not gainingprofit, but in reality it is.
It is gaining profit because themore that this exchanges, the more
(52:21):
abundance, the more creation, themore supported everyone is going
to
Julia Firestone (52:26):
feel.
Right.
Ooh, can I, I love that.
Can I connect it back up to Audrey Lords?
So the, I think the, this notionof self-care that we talked about
earlier is, It's not about caringfor yourself to care for yourself.
(52:51):
I mean, it it is in some context, right?
It is.
For, for black women inparticular, for, for trans folks.
Like, like just the care itself Yes.
Is, is radical.
Just take care of yourself.
Right.
And it's caring for yourself and how that.
Reflects for others and howit allows you to show up.
And so when I advocate for fair wages,for a flexible schedule for time off
(53:19):
that I need to take, take care of arelative who needs support It's not
for me alone, it is for our collectivewellbeing and collective continuity to,
to make positive change in the world.
And so I think this is, can we leavethis as an invitation to those who
have listened or hearing this later?
(53:41):
You know, as to keep in mind, likeit can be so hard to go in for
negotiations to advocate for yourselfto advocate for your field, but.
Keep in mind as you're doing that,that it is not you doing this alone.
You are sharing this gift.
You are creating space and resourcingfor everyone who is doing work
(54:07):
to make the world a better place.
So that's, that's aninvitation for all of us.
Thank you Malia, for another,I'm feeling amazing conversation.
I'm excited.
Malia Wright-Merer (54:21):
I hope this is encouraging.
I'm we would love to,to hear any comments.
Feel free to message us,friend us, connect us, and.
Yes, go ahead Julia.
Julia Firestone (54:38):
And let us know on the original event page.
Yes.
If you go back to it you'll see, youknow, that first post about this event
and you can comment there with othertopics you want us to talk about.
Interesting takeaways.
We'll share out a couple of referencesthat, that we talked about from this call.
Challenges, concerns, what
Malia Wright-Merer (55:01):
do I do about this situation?
Oof.
Julie and I will bite into it.
We're, we're
Julia Firestone (55:09):
eventually going to be like a really
cheesy live call in radio show.
We're moving in thatdirection, so help us do that.
And anyone who, who missed thisconversation, who joined, is just
joining as we're wrapping up.
We will definitely keep doingthis if that's okay with you.
Malia, I love talking to you.
I think
Malia Wright-Merer (55:28):
I'll stay.
Okay.
Julia Firestone (55:30):
Okay.
So we'll be back again and we'llshare all of that info out on
our, each of our LinkedIns.
We'll have another event invite and pullone of the many topics we've brought up
from this week to share with you again.
All
Julia Firestone (00:03):
right.
We are live and so excited to be here withyou again for our second brain tickles.
Hi Malia.
Malia Wright-Merer (00:11):
Hi.
Julia Firestone (00:15):
Well,
Malia Wright-Merer (00:15):
I am so excited to be here.
I'm just gonna share a littlebit about us and why we're here.
Julia and I have the bestconversations, and until now, you've
probably missed out on our secretconversations that we've been having.
So we're starting to share theseconversations about topics that excite
us, confuse us, and make our brainstickle, and we'll be showing up.
(00:40):
Probably on a regular basis, butwe are really here to just allow
our collective synopsis to fireon topics that are relevant to
conscious and impactful people.
So Julia, I wanna readyour bio a little bit.
Oh, and introduce you to the world.
For those who do not know Julia Firestone.
(01:01):
Julia is a certified transformationalleadership and career coach and a
social impact consultant with a focuson providing leadership development
to purpose-driven people andgrowing social impact effectiveness
in purpose-driven organizations.
She is the founder of The PurposeCareer Lab, a career change
(01:22):
accelerator for mid-career and midsenior level professionals in social
impact fields and offers privatecoaching to clients around the world.
Thanks, Malia.
Julia Firestone (01:38):
Can I share a little bit about you too?
Malia Wright-Merer (01:40):
Yeah, I would love to hear about me.
Oh,
Julia Firestone (01:43):
I would love to talk about you.
Malia Wright Mirror is a facilitatorof diversity, equity, and inclusion
and accessibility who approaches thehealing of racialized and structural
trauma through an integrated lens ofcommunal psychology and embodied presence.
With a background in integrativeintegrative somatic trauma, Ugh.
(02:05):
Well, let's try that again.
She has a background in integrativesomatic trauma healing, and she's an
Ayurvedic health counselor bringing anexpansive perspective to her facilitation
of approach rooted in curiosity.
Malia's philosophy provides an openspace for individual processing and
engagement in order to support theprogress of wider cultural change.
(02:28):
Malia, I'm so honored anddelighted to be your friend.
Malia Wright-Merer (02:31):
Oh my gosh, Julia, I am so honored and delighted to be yours.
Julia Firestone (02:37):
So this week
Malia Wright-Merer (02:39):
we are talking about giving professions and mostly just
having this conversation about what thatmeans, how we get into this work, shared
challenges, many of us experience aroundexploitation and self-sacrifice, and
also how do we keep doing the good in thelong term and feel supported as well as.
(03:04):
Other things that might emerge aswe're having this conversation.
I, I do feel like whenever we startthese conversations we start with
a topic and then a thousand otherthings start to emerge mm-hmm.
As we're in it.
So we are also recordingthese conversations.
So we wanna figure out a way to sharethem in the future if you do miss them or
(03:26):
they do seem really interesting to you.
So Julia, You've worked manyyears in nonprofits and in
social impact professions.
So why don't you tell me a little bitabout how you got into this work, what,
what giving professions means to you?
(03:46):
Hmm.
Julia Firestone (03:48):
Well, let me start by saying, Malia, this is
a term I literally have not used.
I've never used this term, and youused it last week when we spoke, and
I thought, what a wonderful way tosummarize what we're trying to address.
You know, I think I, yeah, go ahead.
I was gonna say, I
Malia Wright-Merer (04:07):
don't know if I've ever used this word before.
Julia Firestone (04:11):
That's amazing.
I feel like, you know, I ju I talkabout social impact careers a lot and
you know, I think we hear a lot aboutconscious careers along those lines.
But I think what's so interesting tome about giving professions is it's
actually a much broader, encompassing.
(04:32):
Concept when I think about it versusa, so a social impact career I think
might be a little more limited toanything from nonprofit to diversity,
equity, inclusion and belonging work tocorporate social impact or responsibility,
sustainability, social entrepreneurship.
But there's sort of, thereare a few lanes and I think
(04:53):
what's interesting, when I was.
I was reflecting on the, thelanguage of giving professions.
You know, that's, that includes teachers,that includes medical professionals,
that includes you know, so many differentareas of mental health and, and wellbeing.
And so, you know, it, it strikes methat something as expansive as giving
(05:17):
professions could really encompass,you know, be more about how we show up.
You know, you might be I'mthinking about like trades too.
You might be in, in marketing,you might be a gardener.
But if you show up to that work thatyou do with an awareness, For example,
if you are a gardener, an awareness ofthe land that you're working on, whose
(05:42):
land it really was originally, andwhat it means to steward land for the
beings that, that live here, for the theplants, the animals, the people like you
can be in a giving profession as well.
And so I, I think.
Just to to name that I, I think is aninteresting opening as we're talking
(06:05):
about this, that it might be lessabout the job title or the type of
the legal entity that you work for,but how you approach your career in
Malia Wright-Merer (06:15):
the world.
There's, I wanna share somethingreally quickly before, yeah.
I wanna hear more about your journeys.
This reminds me of when I was 25,I was really upset living in New
York, didn't wanna be an actoranymore, crying on a park bench.
(06:35):
And my now husband said whatdo you wanna do with your life?
And I remember crying and justsaying, I wanna make people happy.
And I feel like there's thismoment in all of us where we
just know there's something that.
We are here to do.
Mm-hmm.
Like a, just this, I mean, we, you mighthear purpose driven, but there's this
(07:00):
moment that that core feeling that is,I have no other choice, but this is
the direction I know I need to go in.
And I think a lot of people in givingprofessions, you wouldn't be in it if
you did not have that core feeling.
And I didn't know whatthat was at the time.
But I remember crying and just saying,I just wanna give, I wanna help.
(07:23):
I wanna make people happy and Idon't know how I'm going to do that.
So Julia,
Julia Firestone (07:30):
yeah, thanks for sharing the, the park bench story.
Malia, I think.
You know, I I shared on LinkedInthe other day that my first career
aspiration was to be a lion when I grewup which I'll admit I have not achieved.
But by the time I we're going way back,by the time I was in, Middle school,
(07:51):
I started learning about I learnedabout hate crimes and the history
of racism in America and, and thepresent context of racism in America.
And it, it just felt so urgent.
And so we had an eighth grade projectthat we could do on any topic.
(08:11):
And, you know, I feel like most.
People did like, I don't know, a bookthey liked or an invention that was cool.
And I studied hate crimes in Americaand was like, you know, 12 or 13,
I guess, teaching my peers aboutlike all these horrible things that
had happened and we're were stillgoing on in the United States.
(08:34):
And I didn't quite know whatshape that would then take later
on, but I think it was reallyfoundational just in understanding
you know, violence, oppression.
Mm-hmm.
Inequity and feeling reallypassionate about those things.
And, and also like as a young personfeeling so confused as to how we
(08:54):
as humans, Could treat each otherso horribly mostly for our own
power and, and gain personal gains.
But ultimately, you know, and it'slike these are conversations I have
with my stepdaughter now who I thinkfeels similarly and has started
her own protest club, which I love.
But you know, I think.
(09:15):
I think there was alsoa lot going on when.
When we were in high school, like Igot to attend some different events
learning about and advocating around thegenocide that was taking place in Darfa.
And understanding, you know, I thinkprobably core in my psyche was learning
about the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.
(09:38):
And, and really just thesehuge humanitarian Horrific
things that had happened.
And so I knew when I was, you know,in college, but also looking towards
my career, that whatever I did had tocontribute meaningfully in some way to
You know, preventing these atrocitiesfrom happening or supporting the people
(10:01):
who were preventing these atrocities orhealing, supporting the healing on the
other side of, of these horrible things.
And my first longing, you know,was, was really to be working with
refugees working in refugee camps.
If I could, you know, I was justlike, who, who needs help the most?
(10:22):
And I really wanted to be possibly atherapist for former child soldiers.
Like that was a, a, anearly career longing.
But I think there's some underlyingpsychology that we'll get into there
Also about this like, Real desire to, youknow, sacrifice my wellbeing and feeling
(10:45):
there was so much heaviness around myown guilt and privilege in this world
and wanting to kind of sacrifice myselfin order to support the better Good.
But there were also.
You know, very, very specific contextthat that I think we both graduated into
(11:06):
that really determined what directionI could go in in my career, my, my
giving profession which was the, thefinancial that we're really going off on.
Like there's a lot of pieceshere, but with the financial
collapse in 2008 there was a real.
Real sense of competitionin the nonprofit world.
(11:29):
And so I graduated very kind ofeager and hopeful to make an impact.
And like, please, like,send me to the field.
I will, you know, like, you don'teven have to pay me, like just feed
me and fly me where you need me to go.
I will do whatever is helpful.
And I, I.
Again, really wanted to beideally in, in refugee camps
(11:51):
and no one would gimme a shot.
I was, I was going up againsthundreds if not thousands of people
who wanted unpaid internshipswith places like the International
Rescue Committee and, and others.
And so yeah, it, it totally shiftedmy focus and I ended up we can
talk about this a little more, butI was in doing some fundraising
(12:14):
for a small nonprofit for a bit.
Eventually made my way into morekind of program focused work,
while also nannying full-time.
Because New York City and yeah, youknow, it, it, it's really been quite
a journey from mostly small nonprofitsand, and I did eventually work
work abroad but not in a, not in a.
(12:34):
Conflict setting.
Fortunately for my parents.
But I, I did get to work and live abroadin, in Zambia and then ended up doing
more work for that nonprofit and ineducation and, and eventually made a
move over to corporate social impact.
So we can talk about that transition too.
Yeah.
But I'll pause there.
Malia Wright-Merer (12:54):
Oh, yeah.
Well, I just wanted to say, I thinkyou shared a really good point about.
This feeling of where is themost need and I need to go there.
But then in reality, everyone else wastrying to go there at the same time.
And it, it kind of pushes aside sometimeswhat the need is right in front of you.
(13:17):
And what is needed in your neighborhood,what is needed right next to you.
And I think, I think we actuallydo see this a lot, especially
when there's there's a lot ofsupport needed in so many places.
But where's the most need?
Let me put all of my eggs in this basket.
And maybe there's.
(13:37):
This flooding amount and yeah,I just, I didn't know if you had
any thoughts on that because justhearing, hearing you say so many
people are wanting unpaid internships,that there was no room for me.
Julia Firestone (13:52):
Right.
Well, I think that's the otherthing that I have, I came to realize
pretty quickly is you know, actuallyme, with the skill sets I had at.
I was probably going to bea greater burden living and
working in a refugee camp than
Malia Wright-Merer (14:13):
I could have contributed.
Oh yeah.
We'll let that one simmerwe lost unpack there.
Julia Firestone (14:20):
Yeah, right.
I mean, you know, and we don't haveto go deep into it, but we know about.
Voluntourism.
There's a lot of cases where especiallyyoung white Americans with a lot of
wealth privilege are going places andyou know, stacking a bunch of bricks
together, so, When they're like, theydon't have any background in construction.
(14:44):
They don't really know what they'redoing, but they just wanna be helpful
and they're doing that pattingthemselves on the back and as soon
as they leave, those communities arehaving to rebuild or, or break it so
that the next volunteer volunteer cancome back and do the same thing again.
Malia Wright-Merer (15:00):
Yeah.
Well, I think this is, this is a goodlittle segue about lasting change.
Yes.
And also when we do, let's say, find aniche or a direction that we, that we
do put ourselves in, in those givingprofessions, how do we sustain it?
How do we feel supported and nourished?
(15:22):
And while we are in these professions,and this might be a good place to
plug in this question that that wasasked, actually, I'm gonna read it.
Yeah,
Julia Firestone (15:32):
go for it.
So
Malia Wright-Merer (15:34):
this was one of the questions that were asked
before we started this session.
Okay, let me see if I can find it.
Here we go.
How to stay in engagedwithout getting overwhelmed.
What techniques do people use forbalancing when they do feel inundated by
(15:54):
any number of things in social impact?
I'm gonna
Julia Firestone (15:59):
start there.
There's more, but I'm just there.
There's lot there.
It's a great, a great, greatsubmission, so thank you.
Malia Wright-Merer (16:06):
Yeah.
Julia Firestone (16:07):
Yeah.
How to stay engaged without gettingoverwhelmed, I think is the first part.
Well, I mean, Malia, you arehighly trained in somatic work
and absolutely specialized inreally helping people integrate.
Challenging emotions and experiencesso that they can, you know, move
forward with intentional action.
(16:30):
And so I wonder, you know, whatcomes to mind for you when you think
about, and, and you're someone whois personally affected Of course.
Yeah.
And very passionate about alot of issues in the world and,
and justice and equity, so.
I guess, whichever way you wannaanswer it, how do you personally stay
engaged without getting overwhelmed?
And also how would you help clientsor folks you support with that
Malia Wright-Merer (16:54):
too?
Yes.
This this I actually thinkabout a lot because is there
any other empaths out there?
You know, what it's liketo feel like a sponge of.
Different emotions, feelings,what's happening in the world.
I know there are some peoplethat have better separation.
(17:14):
I can critically think about this issuewithout getting emotionally involved.
I am not one of those people.
My husband and I talk about this all thetime, and he says, can't you just, you
know, critically think about this topic?
That's really traumatic.
So, And I'm like, no, I can't.
I dunno what that means because Ifeel so strongly, which is why I'm
(17:39):
here, which is why I do what I do.
But I think something that I will share.
And I saw this especially come uparound the George Floyd protests.
Mm.
And everything happening in 2020 likeeverything blowing up at this time.
Right.
The pandemic, natural disastersthe social the social activist
(18:02):
emergences extremes that kind of.
Exploded around all at this time.
And I started noticing myself sayingto myself, I'm not doing enough.
And as if you can imagine what alsoresulted from that place was stress,
anxiety, shame, guilt overwhelm.
(18:26):
Maybe let's sprinkle in alittle panic attack there.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, it wasn't one thing,of course, but I started noticing
how people were responding and howpeople were showing up and how I was
showing up and how I wanted to utilize.
(18:48):
My body, my skills, myawareness in that moment.
And I had this huge, huge revelationthat wasn't only me, it was probably
from a lot of other peers, people Iwork with people I was learning with.
But I started recognizing how much my own.
(19:11):
Feeling of needing to take care ofanyone and everyone was overwhelming.
My response to show up and what thatmeant for me and And I started also
recognizing for me, I knew that I was aperson that was very skilled in emotional
(19:31):
intelligence, very skilled in processing,very skilled in how we are digesting
what is showing up, and I need to takemy own medicine at that time also.
But I also knew for me that callingCongress people every single day wasn't.
(19:51):
The way that I knew that I wasgoing to show up every single day.
And I think also when it comes to theseways that we are showing up for specific
issues, and there are so many, right?
There can be this.
This guilt of I am not doing whatthat person thinks I should be doing.
(20:13):
Mm.
The shoulds.
The shoulds, right.
The guilt, the shoulds, the shame.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not doing what this person says.
If you're not doing this,then you're not a good citizen
or you're not a good person.
And I actually had to drown out a lot ofthose noises and show up and say what?
(20:34):
Where can I utilize my skills thatcome so naturally to me to show up
for maybe this section of supportthat can grow in so many ways?
And sometimes they love to imagine ifeveryone was doing that and focusing
(20:56):
on their unique way of showing up.
Again, for me, emotional intelligence,processing digestion, how we are taking
care of ourselves in the process.
Mm-hmm.
If I can show up in this specificway and implement this in longevity.
So I always say there are peoplewho sh to work in short-term and
(21:20):
term activism that we need both.
That's great.
Yeah, and we need both.
Like, I'm, I'm not saying, youknow, one's better than the other,
but I, I definitely feel like along-term activism kind of person.
Like I'm looking in the longhaul, you know, past when I die,
like years ahead, what's goingto be continuous and happening.
(21:45):
And if everyone is only doing that, Ithink we wouldn't get a lot of change
happening on the floor right now.
So we need both.
Where is that place where you feelso aligned with and so connected to
what your unique way of showing up is?
My dad's on this call.
(22:06):
Shout out to I saw that.
Julia Firestone (22:08):
Hi.
Hi.
I
Malia Wright-Merer (22:10):
just wanted to, to bring, bring him up just for a moment
because My dad and I feel so lucky.
My dad and I get to work together.
My dad has been in the disabilityinclusion and consulting field for
40 plus years and has made waves.
I wonder, he's probably SMI smilingright now, but he's made waves.
(22:32):
In this field and focused in thisway of really supporting individuals
so that they feel as though they arebelonging, accepted, available, and
especially in working environments.
I think that's the main focus here.
But I see, I feel so lucky to growup in a household where my dad
(22:53):
and also my mom had this focus.
I'm going to help.
People with disabilities, disabled peopleto, and, and shifting the perspectives
of other people so that we are notletting bias or stereotypes get in
the way of hiring individuals, workingwith individuals with disabilities.
(23:16):
That is this core niche.
A huge coordination of that isself-advocacy and also believing
in people getting out of that that.
First barrier, and howdo we just see people?
And my dad's been in thisfield for 40 plus years.
(23:37):
He, he doesn't know this, but I thinkhe's kind of a celebrity in this field.
Everyone knows him, but I thinkthere's like this, this piece of.
Following where that is, where youknow you can support this area.
There are going be a thousand other issuesthat we can support on the sidelines.
(23:59):
We want belonging.
We want to dismantle these systems.
We want to soften thisintensity of power structures.
Of course, but we, I think it's soimportant to find the space where
you can say, okay, this is where Ican show up, and this is if I give it
(24:21):
my heart and my fullness is enough.
Julia Firestone (24:28):
That's huge, Malia and I, I think what you do in, in naming that
is also give us permission to both tofocus in and not have to do everything.
And I think there's also this sort of,I'm gonna be a little cheeky for a minute.
I think the like inverse of that,which is also part of our psychology,
(24:51):
I think as people who care deeply aboutdoing good in the world, and a little
bit of like what I felt coming intomy career is kind of an overinflated
ego about how much impact we can have.
Oh yes.
Right.
And so, You know, there, we had a,a brutal week last week in the US in
(25:13):
terms of Supreme Court cases, justtotally can I use the word terrorizing?
Us as, as human beings human rightsand like they really championed
the already wealthy white.
Cisgender straight dudes out there.
Someone needs to champion them.
Right.
No, that's sarcasm.
But you know, I think the realityis me as one person and, and I
(25:38):
feel like we're told, like you asone person can change the world.
Mm-hmm.
But also me as oneperson, I am not going to.
Change those Supreme Court decisions.
No matter how pissed off I am, no matterhow devastated I am, like it's, it's
not going to change that current moment.
(25:59):
There are plenty of constructive waysthat we can change things, but if
my focus is on changing every singlepolicy all at once, I'm just simply
not going to accomplish anything.
And, and it does require anoverinflated ego to think that
any one person can do all of thosethings all the time, like Right.
(26:20):
I think that's, it's it's a, acheeky take, but I think it also
comes back to the same point.
I think you're making Malia of like,you don't have to do everything
nor is it humanly possible.
Yeah.
Malia Wright-Merer (26:33):
Yeah.
And I think also I.
Kind of talking on thisinflated ego aspect of things.
And this is, this is a, a little,it's, it's a little more controversial
and I guess in public space spaces,what I'm about to say, but also in
very trauma, trauma-informed spaces.
(26:53):
This is not very controversial at all.
Julia Firestone (26:56):
Ok.
Brilliant.
And I come
Malia Wright-Merer (26:57):
from a very trauma-informed space, but but I think.
You know, when we're talking abouttrying to do everything, I think
there's partially some of the thingsyou said, oh, I need to make up
for things that my past family did.
And we're talking more on the,the white bodied side of course.
(27:19):
Mm-hmm.
But also like all, all bodies areIntegrated into the white supremacy
culture that we've, if you're,if you're living in basically
Northern America United States,like you've grown up with that.
And so I think there's this, thisoverwhelming need to fix what has been
(27:40):
done in the past without digesting orprocessing where that lives in your
body, which is what I geek out about.
But also, I think this is thecontroversial thing is that I just
remember so many people saying,if you're not doing this, then
you are, you are the problem.
(28:02):
Fill in the blank.
I, and here's my issue with that.
It's not that we shouldn't be doing thosethings that people are asking for, and
I hope people are doing those things.
But what happens in the nervoussystem, what happens in the body
in that point is that we, we do notin that moment feel probably safe.
(28:25):
Mm-hmm.
Probably like we belong and there, theremight be multiple things happening.
Activation maybe that's a fight, which is.
Okay, I'm gonna fight for this, right?
Which is not, I'm not saying anyof these things are good or bad.
There might be a collapse.
(28:46):
Oh, no, I'm not doing it.
I'm, I'm ashamed, I'm not doing enough.
There might be a freeze.
I can't move.
I'm frozen.
I can't act.
And I saw this happenagain and again and again.
People saying for rightful reasons.
(29:07):
If you're not doing this,then it's part of the problem.
But the thing is, we live in theproblem and to immediately separate
ourselves from that problem is like,I don't, I don't know what I, what.
It's like having a gash on your,on your knee and saying, Nope.
Doesn't exist.
(29:27):
Yeah.
And you're like, but the gash is
Julia Firestone (29:30):
there.
Malia Wright-Merer (29:31):
Right.
And it needs to heal.
So I think all of this being saidabout doing enough, or like the ego
or the nervous system response ofthat enoughness is where can I pause?
Where can I settle into my body?
(29:52):
Where can I take care of myself?
And then from that placeof, of grounded fire,
Julia Firestone (30:04):
Yes, and I think.
I, I, I don't think whatyou said was controversial.
I think maybe I'm closeenough to trauma-informed
Malia Wright-Merer (30:13):
spaces like it, I did give a trauma-informed perspective on it.
Yes.
Julia Firestone (30:19):
Well, I think part of what you're talking
about is hypervigilance.
Yeah.
And acting out of trauma.
There's a whole component ofwhite supremacy culture that
Tim Okun talks about mm-hmm.
Of urgency.
Right.
And getting it right.
Which is some of the shameand all of that that comes up.
But I think also it's so important toname that when you're talking about
(30:40):
the the care for oneself, which likeself-care has totally been chomped up by
buzzworthy, buzzword by the, the Goops ofthe world the Gwyneth Paltrows and such.
Tell me if I'm wrong, I think you'rereferring to more of like Audre Lords.
Way of approachingself-care, which is mm-hmm.
(31:01):
It's not, it's not really aboutwhite bodied people getting bubble
baths or like, like shirkingresponsibility or accountability.
That's, that's not the point.
Right.
The point is that it is radical for peoplewho are harmed by oppressive systems.
(31:22):
So, And told they're less thanand treated poorly to take amazing
care and, and love for themselves.
Well I also wanna
Malia Wright-Merer (31:31):
add to that challenge me.
Cause, cause yeah.
I, I'm gonna challenge youcause you know, yes, completely.
People who are harmed take,take care of yourself.
But I, I think I will alsoadd that there has been
Julia Firestone (31:45):
harm to everybody.
Malia Wright-Merer (31:49):
In this?
Mm-hmm.
I think especially when we're thinkingof white bodied, you know, white,
white supremacy, white bodied supremacythere is this belief that, that white
bodies are, are, have more access,more entitlement more availability.
(32:10):
Two things.
There has been a benefit,but what also that harm has
caused is a disconnection Mm.
To the world, and I think that is harm.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I, I do not know onewhite body person who's like
who has not had that experience,whether they're aware of it or not.
(32:35):
Mm.
Yeah.
And so, and I think overall, likeI, I, I, I also do processing with
racialized trauma, and I think everysingle person has racialized trauma.
Very different meanings of it.
Mm, very different meanings of it.
But in a white body, that mightbe this false idea that your
(32:59):
body is better than other bodies.
And this myth of that and whatthat starts to create in the brain
and also adds on more of thissense of, oh, I need to be enough.
I need to be better.
I need to achieve.
All of these things are linked.
So in that challenge,yeah, everyone needs care.
(33:24):
But I think you're right insaying it's not always like
white bodies babble B bubble.
Right?
It might be a bubble bath, but it'salso not taking away accountability
for digesting and processing wherewe play a role in those parts.
Julia Firestone (33:37):
Right.
And I think the yeah, I, no, I'ma hundred percent with you, Alia.
I think that the way that Audre Lordetalked about self-care, Was specific to, I
think was really specific to black people.
Yeah, definitely.
And, and sh I'll just, I'll give herthe, read the quote if that's okay too.
(33:59):
She said, caring for myselfis not self-indulgence.
It is self-preservation.
And that is an act of political warfare.
Yes.
Right.
And so it, it like feels very different.
Like a Gwyneth Paltrow,not to just like parade her
Malia Wright-Merer (34:14):
says the same thing.
Right?
She, if
Julia Firestone (34:16):
she takes that right, like self-care out of that context.
And this happens a lot, right?
Removes all of the context.
That's so important.
Yeah.
But yeah, I,
Malia Wright-Merer (34:28):
I think, I think this is a, this is another conversation I'm.
Woo.
But I do also wanna talk about youknow what, what happens when we
are in these giving professions?
And so we're showingup, we're in our niche.
We feel like we have a, a vision,a purpose that we want to go into.
(34:48):
And then how, how do we get paid?
Julia?
Ooh,
Julia Firestone (34:54):
thanks for wheeling us in Malia.
This, it does feel like awhole other conversation.
This like beautiful rhizomeof our dialogue that will yep.
Lead us to our next topic.
But yeah, you know, Ithink there's, there's.
So much we can talk about when itcomes to actually the, like the, the
working and the giving professions.
(35:14):
You know, I think there's like,maybe we could start by talking
about nonprofits a little bit.
And I think we have some folkswho have worked or do work in
nonprofits listening in right now.
You know, I, I think onething that's wild is.
That when you have only worked innonprofits, you may not actually be
aware of what is and isn't a toxic orunhealthy culture in an organization.
(35:40):
And, and I think people primarily go intowork in nonprofits with good intentions,
wanting to be of service, wanting tomake meaningful impact in the world.
I think there, there is a muchsmaller group that probably gets.
A disproportionate spotlight who is therebecause they, you know, come from a lot
of money are using that money to do good.
(36:03):
But also, you know, probably toget some some big acknowledgements
and ego boosts by doing it.
But they're, they, I think, shouldnot be the stars of the show, right?
I think there's, it's like all of thepeople who choose to take probably a
lower salary than they might have hadin a different field who are choosing
to do work constantly thinking about howdo strategically make the most positive
(36:28):
impact for the people they're serving.
You know, they, they deserve a lot morerecognition and I'm so conscious of
how, of literally hundreds of storiesI've heard of those people who show up
to do this work with, you know, fullhearts and like clear visions and, and
(36:49):
wanting to make a great impact and whoare treated like, Trash or just not
valued in the ways they need to be.
And, and, you know, you mightbe like in a position where
you can take that lower salary.
There's a whole piece aroundthat also, which means that.
That only certain people have theprivilege to take that lower salary,
(37:10):
and that means that people who don'thave that privilege can't work in that
field, and we can collectively organizeand prevent that from being the case.
I feel like that's also mm-hmm.
Laboring and social impact.
We're, we're just gonna talk about that.
And white supremacy andtrauma on every single.
But but you know, I think there's a realneed for, I come back to it, we talked
(37:35):
about this last week too, to transparency,which is the more openly we can share our
stories and our experiences working in,in nonprofits and in social impact the
more we can start to recognize patternsof ways of working, of things outside
of the actual like mission and impactwe're trying to make that are, are not.
(37:56):
Serving us for the long run and areactively, you know, burning people out.
So, you know, I, I, I wonder tooMalia, cause I know you haven't worked
in, have you worked in nonprofits?
No, I've
Malia Wright-Merer (38:11):
worked with nonprofits, but I've never, I've
never actually had a full-time job.
Julia Firestone (38:18):
How cool.
Malia Wright-Merer (38:19):
I love that.
I've always worked freelance, so yeah.
Yeah, so I've nev I've never actuallyworked in a specific nonprofit.
Space.
Mm-hmm.
But I have worked with nonprofitsand I think you know, my experience
is not as developed as other people.
(38:39):
Mm-hmm.
But I think one question that I wantto bring up, or, or inquiry in this is,
is that as an individual who lives in,we're just gonna say the United States.
We, we have to make money in this system.
(39:01):
Mm-hmm.
And we have to have food on our tableand we have to have a roof over our head.
And some of us might need a car if that'savailable in the space that you're in.
But I think there's this common,what I've heard a lot too is a
common feeling of saying yes to less.
(39:23):
Because you are doing itfor the good of humanity.
And I also wanna bring in thatinvitation and curiosity around what
does that mean for you as you areworking for the Good of Humanity.
(39:47):
Mm.
Julia Firestone (39:51):
I mean, I'm tempted to go back to like coaching mode
and also self, self-reflectionand say it, it means that you are
attributing less value to yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Because you are acceptingbeing undervalued basically.
Malia Wright-Merer (40:11):
Yeah.
Julia Firestone (40:12):
And I, I mean, I felt those pressures
early on in my career, right?
To take like the 30 k salary with nohealthcare benefits at a nonprofit.
And I did not feel, I'll use theword resourced to the point where I
could live a decent, healthy life.
Mm-hmm.
Malia Wright-Merer (40:32):
In New York City, by the way, in new.
Julia Firestone (40:34):
In New York City and I, there's, there's a, I think a
really common dynamic that also comesup in nonprofits alongside this is when
negotiating for a salary, especiallyif you're already on the inside, right?
Like we have, we've had, so muchhas changed in terms of salary
transparency since I was enteringnonprofits you know, 13 years ago.
(40:59):
But.
When, when you're already in anorganization and negotiating a salary
increase So many people in nonprofitsfind this this kind of argument used
of, like, Malia, we would love togive you more money, but every single
dollar more we give you takes awayfrom our programming and our, our,
(41:24):
the recipients of our programming.
And so, no.
Malia Wright-Merer (41:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've never heard that before.
Julia Firestone (41:32):
No.
I wish we had, I think wehave reactions on here.
We don't have like chat or hand raising,but maybe by a show of reactions.
This is not recorded.
LinkedIn friends feel free to give us alittle reaction, if that sounds familiar.
Malia Wright-Merer (41:48):
Oh my gosh.
We got so, yep.
Yeah, we got some thumbs up.
Julia Firestone (41:52):
Wow.
I, I think,
Malia Wright-Merer (41:54):
I mean, I, of course I haven't worked in specifically nonprofits,
but I've consulted with nonprofits.
I think the, the biggest shock here iswhat, what I'm hearing in that comment is
you know, you're showing up for this work.
A and out of the goodness of yourheart should be everything that we
need to do or you need, you needto do to be able to do this job.
(42:16):
And that my, my thing here isthis creates a cycle of scarcity.
Of not, again, not enoughness, is thatif we are not able to support this
individual who is supporting these otherpeople and bringing these resources, then
it is a downward spiral of not enough.
(42:39):
Yep.
And part of me, and I'm a dreamer.
I'm definitely a dreamer,but I am just like, there's
gotta be more space for this.
There has to be more there.
It exists, it exists in the world.
I can't remember.
I was looking up like how muchmoney exists in the world.
And I was like, wow, if thismuch money exists in the
(43:01):
world, what are we all doing?
Saying yes to low pays.
And I know that money is not always inpeople's pockets, but I'm so curious
about how this exchange and this flowstarts to to work when we start giving
and receiving in ways that are so.
Re or reciprocal, right?
(43:22):
And I, you know, just that kind of breaksmy heart because, because right there,
somebody is saying to you in this, or, youknow, hypothetical, you, someone is saying
to you you know, we can't have both.
Yeah, we can't, we can't pay youand we can't support these people.
(43:45):
So now it's on you.
I'm putting thisresponsibility as you, mm-hmm.
As an individual to make thischoice for this organization.
Julia Firestone (43:58):
It's deeply manipulative.
Malia Wright-Merer (44:00):
Yeah.
Wow.
I'm just here
Julia Firestone (44:05):
for both.
Both.
Both and well, I mean, there's a,there's a larger context too whereby,
you know there was a, a big trend andcontinues to be this idea that if a
nonprofit has more than 10% overhead,as in like paying towards operational
costs like staff then you shouldn'tdonate to them and nonprofits.
(44:29):
Like annual reports and, and their,their donations, all of that is
publicly available on GuideStar.
It's online.
So donors Including foundationscan look that information up.
And what it actually means is thateveryone's kind of fudging the
numbers, so it looks like theiroverhead is 10% or less, which is wild.
(44:52):
And so there's like a whole systemslevel problem that contributes
further to this issue of chronicallyunderpaying folks who work in nonprofits.
Some of it is, you know, the, likeNew York Times editorial people
who keep writing stories about, youknow, don't donate to nonprofits
with overheads more than 10%.
(45:14):
Right.
That's a problem.
And they like, they look to justa couple nonprofits where the,
the executive director is making.
What appears to be a huge amountof money we can, that's like
a different question, right?
But I, I believe, although this isnot the case, I don't think in many
organizations at all, but I believevery strongly in the the executive of
an organization making no more thanfour times the lowest paid person there.
(45:37):
I
Malia Wright-Merer (45:38):
was just gonna ask you to talk about that and the pirate,
what's that pirate book it called again?
Yeah.
Julia Firestone (45:44):
Which should all be pirates.
It's called Be more pirate B More pirate.
Be more pirate.
It's on my shelf.
I can't see his name, but I'll,I'll leave the, the notes.
Yeah.
Be more pirate that the
Malia Wright-Merer (45:57):
lowest person, the lowest sal or
salaried person should be paid.
Or the highest salary personshould not be paid more than four
times the lowest salary person.
Mm-hmm.
Which, you know, somebody mightsay oh my gosh, the highest salary
person's gonna make so little
Julia Firestone (46:16):
and
Malia Wright-Merer (46:17):
nope, it's actually the opposite.
The lowest salary person'sgonna just make that much more.
Julia Firestone (46:23):
I think that's what it needs to be.
Right?
Yep.
I, and then the other side of it too,I think is Is the funders and not,
not like the individual donors, butthinking about funding mechanisms.
Right?
Like not, I, I see.
Even though I come from nonprofitsand support a lot of people who work
in nonprofits, I see nonprofits assupplemental to government services and.
(46:48):
My ideal would be that the governmentwas providing the services.
That's all of they do.
Malia Wright-Merer (46:52):
It also, you know, also
Julia Firestone (46:54):
depends on, you do a lot.
They do.
And also depends on who isin government and if you can
trust them to actually do that.
So I understand that continuity andlike security issue around nonprofits.
But so.
But in terms of hownonprofits get funding, right?
There's individual donors,there's grant funding, there's
foundations, philanthropy, and.
(47:16):
I think we need to see more kind ofradical funding mechanisms that say we
are going to ensure all of the peoplewho do work for your organization are
paid fairly, have all their medical care,like yes, really advocating for this.
And I would love to share aquick, we're onto like, Pay again.
(47:40):
But I'd love to share a, like, superquick anecdote about my, my dear
friend, I think I'm not gonna nameher in case this is all private.
But a friend of mine who works for afamily foundation I won't even say where,
shared that one of their their partnersthat they fund reached out to talk about.
(48:02):
You know, the next, or or rather myfriend reached out to one of one of these
partners they had funded to talk aboutwhat their next round of funding would
look like and what it would go towards.
And the partner said, well, wewere thinking we could start this
new program that you could fund.
And you know how like that's kind of thenormal thing that happens in nonprofits
(48:22):
is they're like, oh, we'll build thisthing so that you have reason to fund it.
And my friend stopped her and said,Aren't you eight months pregnant?
And the partner said, well, yeah,but you know, don't worry about me.
Like I'm gonna be fine.
And my friend said, what?
(48:43):
What are you doing for your.
Leave.
Like, are you, do youhave a plan in place?
Are you getting paid for that?
Do you have someonestepping in to replace you?
And this partner was like, oh, no, no.
I'm just like, I'm justnot gonna get paid.
It's fine.
And my friend was like, actually, ifyou're okay with this, we would really
like to fund your parental leave for threemonths and pay you fully while you're out
Malia Wright-Merer (49:09):
and pay the person
Julia Firestone (49:10):
who's replacing you.
How does that sound?
His partner was like, wait, are you sure?
And my friend was like, yeah, yeah,you're not going on leave unpaid.
And I just feel like, I thinkwe need to see more funders.
This is a, a small organization, but.
It's like a total shift in thinkingof like, are you cared for?
(49:32):
Yes.
And if we can start from a place of carefor our people in giving professions.
And, and in that I am including,it's not just nonprofits.
It is it is nurses, teachers, itis like across the board, people in
giving professions My phone is buzzing.
Sorry.
And my husband's baking a cake, so Ihope that hasn't been distracting, but
(49:55):
it is like, how do we start from a placeof ensuring that those people who are
showing up with care in the world, I.
Are resourced in the ways that theyneed to be and, and also that they
start expecting that of all of us,
Malia Wright-Merer (50:10):
I think to kind of put a bow on this and going through all the
topics of feeling resourced emotionally.
Feeling resourced financially andalso being able to show up and
give the support and have thatintegrity of what you do care about.
Comes back to transparency.
(50:30):
This is gonna be like our through linetheme consistently is transparency.
There was something that yousaid about what if when people
were Donating to organizations.
If an organization had a pact that wascreating livable wages and benefits for
all employees, and that was what you werethat you were donating and investing in.
(50:53):
That was part of the story.
You know what happens when westart to have these conversations
more with other people?
Julie and I are having this conversationnow with you all here, but what happens
when this con conversation keepscontinuing and people start talking
about it more and creating more ofan understanding of the systems that
(51:16):
are in place of, of if you are ina giving profession, then you might
not be able to ask for that much.
Mm.
Because it's a, something that you'regiving in the goodness of your heart.
I, I taught yoga for 10 years.
One, know what peoplepay, what do people pay?
(51:36):
I mean, that's not peoplelike studios, you know?
Yeah.
$25 an hour, maybe 50, 75.
It's if it's a good class and you know, I.
It's it, and it shows you notonly with giving professions,
but creative professions, peoplewho are giving to community of
(51:59):
giving support to other bodies.
You can see that there is a valuethat is not always important or
celebrated because it's not gainingprofit, but in reality it is.
It is gaining profit because themore that this exchanges, the more
(52:21):
abundance, the more creation, themore supported everyone is going
to
Julia Firestone (52:26):
feel.
Right.
Ooh, can I, I love that.
Can I connect it back up to Audrey Lords?
So the, I think the, this notionof self-care that we talked about
earlier is, It's not about caringfor yourself to care for yourself.
(52:51):
I mean, it it is in some context, right?
It is.
For, for black women inparticular, for, for trans folks.
Like, like just the care itself Yes.
Is, is radical.
Just take care of yourself.
Right.
And it's caring for yourself and how that.
Reflects for others and howit allows you to show up.
And so when I advocate for fair wages,for a flexible schedule for time off
(53:19):
that I need to take, take care of arelative who needs support It's not
for me alone, it is for our collectivewellbeing and collective continuity to,
to make positive change in the world.
And so I think this is, can we leavethis as an invitation to those who
have listened or hearing this later?
(53:41):
You know, as to keep in mind, likeit can be so hard to go in for
negotiations to advocate for yourselfto advocate for your field, but.
Keep in mind as you're doing that,that it is not you doing this alone.
You are sharing this gift.
You are creating space and resourcingfor everyone who is doing work
(54:07):
to make the world a better place.
So that's, that's aninvitation for all of us.
Thank you Malia, for another,I'm feeling amazing conversation.
I'm excited.
Malia Wright-Merer (54:21):
I hope this is encouraging.
I'm we would love to,to hear any comments.
Feel free to message us,friend us, connect us, and.
Yes, go ahead Julia.
Julia Firestone (54:38):
And let us know on the original event page.
Yes.
If you go back to it you'll see, youknow, that first post about this event
and you can comment there with othertopics you want us to talk about.
Interesting takeaways.
We'll share out a couple of referencesthat, that we talked about from this call.
Challenges, concerns, what
Malia Wright-Merer (55:01):
do I do about this situation?
Oof.
Julie and I will bite into it.
We're, we're
Julia Firestone (55:09):
eventually going to be like a really
cheesy live call in radio show.
We're moving in thatdirection, so help us do that.
And anyone who, who missed thisconversation, who joined, is just
joining as we're wrapping up.
We will definitely keep doingthis if that's okay with you.
Malia, I love talking to you.
I think
Malia Wright-Merer (55:28):
I'll stay.
Okay.
Julia Firestone (55:30):
Okay.
So we'll be back again and we'llshare all of that info out on
our, each of our LinkedIns.
We'll have another event invite and pullone of the many topics we've brought up
from this week to share with you again.
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