July 9, 2025 • 33 mins
Taking notes isn’t always busywork; it can be a power move. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the underrated but essential skill of effective note-taking in the workplace. They reflect on how their own approach has evolved from admin duty to strategic tool and explore why the person writing the notes often holds more influence than you think.
From capturing decisions to controlling narratives, they share tactical advice on building a taxonomy, structuring your notes, and knowing what not to include. Whether you're tired of always being “the note taker” or looking to use your notes to drive strategy, this episode will shift how you see the role and the value it brings.
They also get real about AI tools, human nuance, and how to set yourself and your team up for success in the messy middle of meetings.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm doing well. I'm doingwell today. We're talking about
a topic that received an awfullot of attention in the
workplace, meeting notes. Whoshould take them? Why do they
need to take them? And are theyeven necessary? If nobody reads
(00:33):
them?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:35):
Yeah. And are they necessary? Does anyone even
need to take them? Because thereare so many AI note takers
nowadays, that
Indra Klavins (00:41):
too, the, oh, the oath of robots, the robots, and
whether and, okay, well, we'llget into that. We will get into
that I love I have a mixedrelationship with them. But back
to beating notes, back tomeeting notes. For me, I love
them. I love take I actuallyenjoy taking meeting notes.
We'll get into a little bitabout why. I haven't always
(01:03):
loved taking meeting notes overthe course of my career, but I
really, really, really enjoythem because I think they're an
underappreciated skill, becausewhen you master that skill,
you're actually you become suchan important part of the
strategic direction of thethings that are going on at
work. And it's kind of cool,it's kind of cool, and it's kind
(01:24):
of rewarding. Yeah, you'reliterally writing history.
You're writing history, you'rewriting history. And so, you
know, I think maybe a good placefor us to start is like early in
our careers, in note taking, andwhat that was like, and then
evolving from there. So do youwant to go first? Should I go
first? Yeah, I think go first.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:44):
So, like, early in my career, I was assistant
coordinator. I I support. I wasan EA for all intents and
purposes, and I was often theone who had to take meeting
notes no matter the meeting Yep.And, you know, early in my
career, I didn't have the, Ididn't always have the business
(02:08):
context around said meeting,right, like I would some I would
sometimes be invited tomeetings, sometimes not, and it
was just my role to sit thereand transcribe. Essentially,
yeah, transcribe. And, you know,synthesize the notes, summarize
them, yep, and, you know, sendout the the action items, like,
(02:29):
who, who did what? Yeah. Um,that, that skill got developed,
and my meeting note taking, uh,evolved, yeah. Um, as I evolved
in my career, as I progressed inmy career, and I've, I've
learned that it's exactly whatyou said at the top of the of
(02:51):
the podcast here, of the episodeof it is, it's strategic, right?
You are writing history. You arecontrolling a bit of the
narrative. And at the veryleast, you are writing your
version of what you heard in themeeting, even if it isn't the
official document of record,even if, like someone else, is
(03:12):
the official note taker, I stilllike to take my own notes 100%
Indra Klavins (03:17):
like I think there is. There's so many places
to go, but I'll start with,like, the early in your career,
actually a question for you. Iknow how I did it, but like, how
did you How did you know what totake down, like in those early
days, like when you were earlyin your career or new to an
organization, because, yeah, howdid you know what to write down?
(03:38):
And how did you get it right inthose early days.
Amanda Jane Lee (03:41):
I mean, in my in the early, early early days,
I would just write down as muchas I could, read it all later,
and then figure out what wasimportant. And then you just,
you train yourself, right? Youtrain yourself. And then, like,
you read your notes, and youfigure out what's important. And
then the next time you're in ameeting like that. You listen
for those same things, right?You listen for those same people
(04:05):
who say, you know, this is thedecision. And you write that
down. You listen for the wordsaction item, and you write those
things down, and it's just, it'slearning by doing.
Indra Klavins (04:17):
Yeah, it's funny. I You made me remember at some
there was a moment in my careerwhere I thought about taking
stenography classes. Because,you know, before we all had
laptops and all that kind ofstuff, it was, you know, you're
working off of a desktopcomputer. Laptops were a luxury
back in the day, but, yeah, Ithought about that for me, I
(04:42):
think the I there's one personin particular. His name is Ryan,
who I who really helped me honemy note taking skills. I was
working at an agency. He was theclient partner for folks who
haven't been in an agency. It'sa very senior salesperson.
Basically, he's the person who'sowned. The relationship with the
clients. And I was his seniorproject manager, and he would
(05:06):
just really, he's like, makesure you get this one, make sure
you get that one, make sure youget that one. And then over the
course of time, I would do, youknow, he and I built a
relationship over over overyears, like we were both in the
financial services verticalthere, I just learned the
different things that worked anddidn't work, right, you know, in
(05:26):
the note taking, like, whatwasn't? Prepending everything
with action item that was anaction item. Prepending with
something that's a decision, adecision, prepending something
that is just, like, just notes,or just, you know, like
discussion, you know. And youfind a way. And I, you know, I
have not settled on a perfect,you know, what are the things
(05:47):
that I pre pen, but thatapproach, even if it varies from
from meeting to meeting, andit's not exactly the same ever
across the board, it really doeshelp with people. It helps me
categorize stuff and do my worka little bit better. And it
helps people who will be readingthose notes like, look for the
stuff that they're looking for.They're like, what's the action
(06:08):
item? Who's owning it? What'sthe due date? Okay, cool. I know
that. You know that that Jamesis taking care of that thing
over there, and I won't worryabout it, but I'll ask him on
that date, but before that date.I shouldn't nag him about it,
because it's not due until thatdate. You know, I learned a lot
of those little things, largelynot exclusively, from Ryan, but
Ryan was a main portion of that.Yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:31):
that's a good point, I think, you know, early
on in my career, I did havebuddies in meetings right where,
you know, they knew I was thenew kid on the block, and they
knew that I had not honed theseskills yet. And, you know, they
would take their own notes. Wewould compare notes. We would we
would see, you know, what, whatwe each thought was important,
(06:54):
or even like during the meeting.We would just, you know, someone
would just give me a look oflike, oh, okay, cool. You're
writing that down.
Indra Klavins (07:01):
Yeah, I still do that with people. Like, I still
do that. Like, I love that.Debrief with the people I trust.
Like, hey, Alexa, I know you'rea good note taker. Like, what
did I grab this, this, this, andthis? Am I missing anything?
She'll look at her notepad bookand be like, Nope, you're good.
I'm like, okay, cool. Or no, addthis one. I'm like, Oh yeah,
that's right. Need to add thatone in there. Like, having,
having a buddy, no matter whereyou are in your career. As far
(07:25):
as note taking, goes for gutchecks or just like sanity
checks, or, you know, crosschecks, or all the checks, is
really good. I'd say the otherthing in note taking, as I'm
taking as I'm note taking, thisgoes back to words matter.
Amanda's wearing her wordsmatter t shirt. I've got my
words matter mug today, but inis the jargon. Sometimes I take
(07:47):
things down or take names ofthings. I have no idea how to
spell that name. I have no idea,like, I'll just write it down
and I'll ask someone later. I'mlike, Hey, is that, you know,
whatever. And they're like, Ohno, no, no. I see how you
thought that that sounded thatway. That's this person over
here. Or like, oh, that's theirnickname. You'd already know
them as something else. I'mlike, Oh, okay. And, or, or
(08:10):
what's that abbreviation? Orwhat's that this? Or what's that
that? And you know, it's, it's,that's that follow up, and that
checking with my friends, orthat my trusted advisors, or
whatever it turns out to be, isreally important as part of my
note taking, before I send themout, which is going to be
something we'll
Amanda Jane Lee (08:26):
talk about. So, yeah, my thing like that, by the
way, is names of databases. Tellme more, yeah, just names of
databases where, like, I hear,like, someone, you know, usually
an engineer says, the name of adatabase, and it's important for
the notes. And before I writethat down and send it out, I
(08:47):
want to make sure that you knowit's it's captured correctly.
It's spelled correctly. It'scaptured correctly, you know,
whatever it is, so that peoplereading that know that's exactly
what we were referring to inthat meeting.
Indra Klavins (09:02):
Yeah, I think that's really important,
because, you know, differentparts of the business have
different languages that theyuse. We all have different
dialects of business, right? Andrarely do people are not rarely
off. More often than not, peoplejust let words that they don't
(09:24):
understand slide, you know. Andwe've talked about, like, I
mentioned the words matterepisode a couple of times now,
like, there is, there is thetime in the place where you ask
the clarifying question of, Whatdo you mean by that? Or there is
the time when you're like, Iknow that's a software,
programming language, a system,a service, a whatever that
engineers have called it somecookie name, whether it's our
engineers or engineers in thewild in the larger landscape,
(09:47):
it's not worth me stopping thismeeting to say, what is that and
how do I spell it? You write itdown well enough where you'll be
able to follow up with Mark orwhoever, and say, hey. Say, did
I get this right? And they'll,they'll be able to explain. I'm
like, Can I, can you give me adefinition for because I'm going
to put it in the meeting notes.And our business partners who
(10:08):
don't speak your dialect aremight be wondering, what this
thing?
Amanda Jane Lee (10:13):
Yeah, I think, you know, having this
conversation made me realizethere's two facets of it, right?
There's the what do you writedown in the meeting? It's the
actual taking of the notes. Andthen the second piece is the
send, organizing and sending outthe notes.
Indra Klavins (10:33):
Yes, which I think there are two
complementary skills of thecraft of note taking, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (10:41):
It's like knowing, knowing what's
important to take down, and thenknowing how to organize it, so
that you you know what the nextsteps are, and that it's clear
to everyone what the what themeeting was about, what was
discussed, what what theoutcomes were,
Indra Klavins (10:59):
100% Yeah, totally. So let's talk about,
like I did talk a little bitabout, like, some of the tools
and techniques that I've pickedup along the way around the the
cleaning up of the notes beforesending them further, like the
cleaning of the notes, you know,with that prepending of things,
which sort of does create itsown little bit of a taxonomy to
(11:21):
the notes and a logicalorganizing structure, or a
visual or it's not a visualmnemonic. It's like, it's a
whatever. It's an indicator ofsome sort of classification.
What are your favorite tools andtechniques when you're like,
cleaning up your notes beforeyou
Amanda Jane Lee (11:35):
send them out? Yeah, I again, this is just
learned life experience where II found a template that works
for me, like you, like you saidthat you like to prepend Yeah,
action items with action item,yeah, I like to do that and put
them all like in the samesection, and usually at the top,
(11:58):
right at the top of the MeetingNotes, action items. If you read
nothing else, this is thesection you read. This is the
section you read. It's veryclear in multiple ways that this
is an action item. And who ownsthat action item? Yeah,
Indra Klavins (12:14):
it's and there's no right or wrong. My bias is
always my bias is usually tokeep it in the way that the
conversation flowed, becausethat helps me remember that,
like I see the picture that way,and neither is right or wrong.
Everybody's got to find theirown style for themselves and for
their scenario. Like, if Iworked in a workplace where that
was, like, more effective, Iwould totally steal that
approach from you or borrowYeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:34):
it depends on the organization. It depends on
who's reading the notes. It'skeeping your audience in mind,
right? Like, a lot of themeetings that I, I've run in my
career, are for the people who,like, who cares about the
context. Like, I just want toknow what, what the decisions
were, what the action itemswere, yeah, and what, if there's
anything I need to do, is therean action item for me? Yeah?
(12:56):
Like that. That's what isimportant. And I've also
sometimes included just the rawmeeting notes at the bottom,
like appendix. Here's my rawnotes, if, if you want to really
read through them, or, I mean,in these days, you know, here's
the AI transcription
Indra Klavins (13:13):
of the meeting and, you know, but there might
be some meetings, depending onmy forum, I'd be like, hey, here
are my raw notes. I'm notcleaning them. Like, I'm like,
here's my raw notes. I trust youguys understand with the typos
and all, like, we're moving tooquickly. Like, let's go right?
And that can work sometimes too.It's not you know, you don't
(13:34):
have to always clean your notes.It's it you'll, you need to know
you'll, you'll, you need to knowyour context, and you'll need to
know what works best,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:42):
right? And like, just being strategic about
it, right? Like, if you if it isa meeting where there were a lot
of action items, and if thoseaction items are not complete,
we are blocked, then youstructure your notes a certain
way. If it was more of acollaboration brainstorming
meeting, maybe you don't need tostructure your notes at
Indra Klavins (14:01):
all. Yeah, totally. And I think that you
just said strategic, which is,you know, one of the things that
I've got so many stories when itcomes to strategic stuff, but
I'll pick one, somebody that youand I used to work with, Corey.
We were in a meeting. Corey is abig advocate of making sure that
workplaces are equitable and thework is distributed properly.
(14:24):
And he joined the organization,and we were in some sort of
leadership meeting, and I wasalways taking the notes. And
Corey is like, and like, he'slike, he's like, Indra, you
don't need to take, I think heeven said it out loud, Indra,
you don't need to take thenotes, or you don't need to
always take the notes. I'm like,no Corey, I will. And then after
the meeting, I explained to him,I'm like, Corey, my taking of
(14:47):
the notes like, I appreciate theprotection, because the notes
use often, not usually, oftenenough they go to the person
with the least amount of powerin the room, right? And that
could be societal power. Or thatcould be little hierarchy power.
There's lots of different thingsthat can happen. I said to him,
I said, Corey, I said, I knowthat in certain forums, if I
(15:08):
write the notes, I can helpdrive the strategy, and I know I
can do a better job of it thaneverybody else, and that's in
this conversation. And so forthose reasons, I'm holding on to
taking the meeting notes. Iinvite you to check me every
once in a while to make surethat I am still doing it for
those reasons, and it has thatvalue, but I'm going to take the
meeting. Okay? That makes sense,yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:33):
yeah, yeah, I and I think that's just again, a
learned experience, right? Likeyou, you learn from experience
where, oh, the notes actually dohave weight and value and like
the way things are captured andsaid and documented as like
(15:56):
system of record, yes, is reallyimportant. And if you are the
one who's doing that, you havepower, whether you realize it or
not you really
Indra Klavins (16:07):
do. And you know, the other thing that, like
another signal, that I knew thatI was really good at it was I
had a boss. His name was Satya,and he was it was one of these
leadership meetings that we'vetalked about in the last episode
that had like no purpose. Itwas, it was a lot of leaders
saying lots and lots and lots ofwords, but we never got to
(16:30):
anything. And so I joined theorganization he taught and
joined around the same time, andI would use my approach that
around using a shared documentto define the agenda. The same
agenda was where I captured allthe meeting notes, and that way
we would have one system ofrecord for everything to look
at. Like, what have we talkedabout over the past forever?
(16:51):
Like, as long as that documenthas existed and we were walking
out of a meeting once he goes,you know, Indra, not only do I
like what you do write down, Ilike what you don't write down,
and I also like how you phrasethings, so we can all remember
what we talked about. But thatthing never made it onto paper.
Because there are some thingsthat should actually never make
it onto paper because you youdon't want it to the information
(17:13):
to inevit, um, unintentionallyland in the wrong hands. Someone
will look over somebody'sshoulder, whatever it might be.
So like, those types ofcompliments are the ones where,
you know, like, Oh, I'm I'mhelping with strategy here. I'm
taking meeting notes, and I'mhelping strategy. Yeah, right.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:29):
And you know, back to what you said about
about Corey, right? Like he wastrying to protect you. He was
trying to protect me. It wastrying to protect you. He, he
was like, Oh, well, you don'thave to always do the
administrative thing. That'swhen I get annoyed when somebody
is like, Amanda, can you takethe notes? And it's like, this
(17:50):
isn't my meeting. This isn't mymy my topic of discussion. I'm
going to take notes for myself,but you're all on your own. To
take your own notes and actionitems,
Indra Klavins (18:01):
facts. You need to have boundaries. You can't,
you can't do it for everyone allthe time, 100% 100% and that's
for me, where those you know,I'll create, sometimes it
depends on the environment, butlike, I'll create the shared
document that everyone can dumptheir notes into. Yeah, well,
I've
Amanda Jane Lee (18:19):
done that too, right? Like, Okay, Amanda, can
you take the notes? All right,this isn't my meeting. This
isn't my bag, but you know, I'mhere to facilitate the
conversation and to make surethat you guys have action items
and you guys know what you'redoing, but I'm not going to be
the one capturing it, because Idon't have all of the context
here, like you can all takenotes while you're speaking. And
(18:41):
so I'm happy to create the doc,share the doc link in the in the
meeting, and say, here's whereI'm taking notes, or I'm trying
to take notes. Please, pleasejoin me. Please correct all of
the misspellings of thedatabases that I'm going to
write down. And
Indra Klavins (18:58):
then what I'll do is in that document, I loved it.
Like, as a officer is put at thetop of it. This is a shared
document, and the controleveryone in the team is
responsible for adding to it,like, or something like that.
Like, it sets expectations. Soit's not like, well, Indra, you
created the document, so we justassumed, like, no, no, did you
read that thing at the top,which I highlighted in yellow
(19:18):
and made it really, really bold.Like, did you read that? I
created it because I know how tocreate documents really quickly.
But not my meeting, not mymeeting
Amanda Jane Lee (19:27):
notes right now, my meeting, not my meeting
notes. Happy to help where Ican, but this is all you. I'm
reminding you all that this isall you and yeah, just going
back to the having a buddy in ameeting. Yeah, you know, I'll,
I'll often identify a buddy andbe like, Hey, can you please,
(19:49):
like, Help me take notes in thismeeting? Because otherwise,
like, no one's gonna writeanything down.
Indra Klavins (19:55):
And this is where your AI comes into play. Like,
there's enough AI Notes. Takersthat are out there. I have a
very good relationship with myAIS, I think, but I also know
that they are I think of my AISas interns. Interns are
wonderful. They're enthusiastic.They often do good work, and
they often get it wrong. So Iuse that as my backup, like let
(20:18):
me get the literal words, andlet's see what an AI can pull
together. That's sort of mybackup on note taking. And then
I will take what they take. Inever send out what they did,
like exactly as is. I take alook at I'm like, Oh, that's
interesting. I forgot aboutthat. I'll take the pieces and
I'll create a new notes documentand send that off. Because what
the AI is lacking, it's lackingcontext, a whole lot of context,
(20:43):
it only knows what it knows fromthat meeting and maybe other
meetings that it was a part of.Like each AI has got a different
algorithm and knowledge base andall that kind of stuff. But
assume that it only knows whatwas discussed in that exact
forum at that particular time,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:58):
right the business context that baby
Amanda was was missing way backearly in my career, 100%
Indra Klavins (21:04):
like and it's like, you, oh, no, sorry. The AI
did not hear that sideconversation that happened over
slack, for example,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:13):
right? The AI doesn't know that this person
who said this thing is the mostimportant person in the room,
and they should have taken downbasically everything that this
person said and
Indra Klavins (21:27):
ignored everything that that really
loquacious. The person who haslots and lots of words was
saying that stuff. Not soimportant. We let them talk
because that's sort of our teamdynamic, and they they need to
get it out. We all understandthat, but that's not the most
important thing, and that's notthe thing that we're going to
focus on next right? Valuable.That's next quarter
(21:47):
conversation, though. That's notthis quarter conversation or
this week conversation,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:51):
right? Just because Steve was saying that we
should do all of these thingsdoesn't mean we should do all of
these things. No,
Indra Klavins (21:57):
no. And that's and that's so use it as a
backup. Use it as a reference. Ii Oh, like I keep and say it's
always as I think of them asthey're an intern. I think of
them as an intern. I cannot,really, I cannot wholeheartedly
rely on my AI to take the bestmeeting notes. But I love having
it there, because sometimes Iwon't have, I won't have the
(22:19):
time to write it all down. Andsometimes I will rely on the ad
to do all the notes during it,but then I'll rewrite them
afterwards, like I'll take whatthey have to remind me what the
conversation was, and then gofrom there. So I'm giving you
the full transcript so you canactually go back and look at it,
so which is kind of fun, too. SoRight? Yeah, that reminds me of
a conversation, like I was in ameeting, and I did my thing
(22:41):
right? I opened up my notesdocument. I started taking
notes. I i Even, because I wasleading the meeting, I shared my
screen with my live note takingso that everybody could see my
live note taking.
Amanda Jane Lee (22:55):
And I got a Slack DM, like, Why do you take
your own notes, like there's anAI like, use right? Why are you
taking the notes? Like you don'ttrust the AI note taker? And I
was like, It's not that I don'ttrust the AI note taker. It's I
like to have my own notes for myown context, and again, with the
(23:18):
strategic angle, um, using theright words, yeah, to drive the
next steps,
Indra Klavins (23:26):
yeah, you actually just highlighted
something that I had that thatis so important, or it's such a
useful skill when you're on thatmore advanced side of note
taking, that I think we need toTalk about screen sharing.
Screen sharing is one of my ifyou see me in a Zoom meeting,
odds are that at some point Iwill wind up sharing my screen.
(23:48):
It gives everybody in thisscenario for this particular
topic, it gives everyonesomething to focus on, right and
they stay. They're more likelyto stay in the conversation than
answer slack messages or chatmessages or emails on the side
like they're more likely to staypresent. And by doing the live
note taking they are that givesthem an added focus. They can
(24:11):
see there are notes happening,and they'll be like, oh, did she
get that right? And when say tolike, Amanda, you didn't get
that right, you're like, great.It's a shared notes document you
want to fix that database namefor me, because I know I'm not
going to get it right. Andthey'll go and they'll do the
thing, and which is great,they're more engaged, and
they're part of the solution,which is really kind of fun.
Amanda Jane Lee (24:30):
Yeah, I do it, yes, and I do it because it
creates a shared under what'shappening in the meeting. Yes,
100%
Indra Klavins (24:41):
100% I also love the fact that you said yes, and
that's why I've had the giggle.If anybody heard my giggle, it's
such a useful thing from theimprov world, that is useful in
the workplace too, and part ofconversations yes and yes,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:57):
and it creates a shared understanding for
everyone in the. Room, yeah, inthe or in the virtual room,
yeah, where, you know, yes, thisis Amanda's meeting. This
Amanda's taking the notes. ButI'm, I'm looking at this and
fact checking the notes thatshe's taking, right? Like, oh,
she totally got that wrong. Letme raise my hand. Hey, Amanda,
(25:19):
you I think you misunderstood?Oh, I did. Let's talk about it.
Because if I'm if Imisunderstood, maybe someone
else did too. Ding, ding, ding,
Indra Klavins (25:28):
everyone leaves the conversation with shared
understanding, one of ourfavorite phrases, right? Like,
shared understanding iseverything, and then the meeting
has value. You know, the meetinghas value and is delivering on
its promise, which is lovely,lovely when the meetings
actually have value and theydon't dislike meander, because
people like to hear themselvestalk,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:50):
right? And the creation of that Doc is the
creation of that artifact thatyou can refer to later.
Indra Klavins (25:59):
And sometimes it's months later, sometimes
months later. And you know, youdon't want to over invest in
stuff, but it is, you're likeyou've said the word, system of
record. It is the it is thehistory keeping. It is the it's
a lot. There's a lot of value toit. And you don't know why,
when, where, and how that'sgoing to pay off, but it often
(26:20):
does
Amanda Jane Lee (26:21):
right? It's like you had the meeting. You
might as well get the benefitsof the meeting right. You might
as well write down what wasdiscussed in that meeting, in
case you need it later, in
Indra Klavins (26:32):
case you need it later. And last episode was
about, Gosh, my brain iscompletely forgetting from all
the way from last week. But wetalked about follow through.
Let's talk about sending outmeeting notes.
Amanda Jane Lee (26:43):
Yeah, yeah. Because, well, back to the AI
thing related. But AI thingpeople will invite their AI note
takers. The AI note takers willtake the notes. Where are the
notes to refer to later? Likeit's either just in someone's
google drive somewhere, or,like, on their personal machine,
(27:04):
or like attached to, it's justlost in the ether, right? Like
there, there's this art offollow up of, okay, we took the
notes. Let's distribute thenotes, and let's organize the
notes. Let's distribute thenotes. Let's, you know, what I
like to do is I, you know, for aGoogle meeting, the notes Doc is
(27:26):
attached to the calendar.Invite, yes, but I also like to
link that doc to a centrallocation, yes,
Indra Klavins (27:35):
yes. You can find it in lots of different so
Amanda Jane Lee (27:37):
you can find it later, so that you're not
combing through your calendarand your 1000s of meetings on
your calendar, wondering, weespecially for a recurring
meeting. You're like, what weekdid we talk about that thing?
Indra Klavins (27:48):
Yeah, yeah. And like, I think that you made me
think of something silly that Isay when I, when I, I do it in a
couple of different contexts.But like, in this context, if
you're taking the time to writethe notes, make sure you send
them out. Because my littlesilly saying is, like, if a bear
poops in the woods and doesn'ttell anyone about it, does he
(28:10):
get credit for it? The answer isno. If you take the meeting
notes and you don't send themout, do you get credit for it?
No. Like, just make sure thatyou're doing and in some cases,
everyone knows it's in themeeting invite, and it's in the
shared drive, and it's in allthe places. So you may not need
to do that, but like, maybethere's something that you send
out a Slack message saying, hey,hey, folks, made sure I cleaned
(28:31):
up the meeting notes. Here's thelink as a reminder. Check it out
and make any corrections orcomments. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:37):
that that's my method. I you know, even though
it's understood that the meetingnotes are attached to the invite
and that this is a this is astanding meeting, and we know,
we all know where the notes are,I like to send a message to
remind people these are wherethe notes are, and to please
review the notes, in casesomething is incorrect, in case
(28:59):
Amanda just did not understandwhat happened in this meeting,
and everything she wrote downwas wrong.
Indra Klavins (29:07):
It's, you know what I say? I like to make new
mistakes every single day, and Iguarantee you that I make new
mistakes every single day,Amanda, you'll make mistakes.
I'll make mistakes. We all makemistakes, and it takes all of us
as a community at work right toget this stuff right as a
collective,
Amanda Jane Lee (29:22):
yeah, I back when, back when email was more
of the thing, and, like, Slackwas less of the thing. I used to
send my notes, yeah, you know,over email, and in order to get
people to acknowledge, I wouldput in, you know, bold, bigger,
font, highlighted, underlined atthe top, like, you know, please,
(29:46):
please correct anything that mayhave been misstated here. If you
know, if an approval is needed,it'd be like, everyone needs to
approve this by this date. Andthen I would say, if I don't
receive. Receive your like, anexplicit reply, I am going to
assume everything is good.
Indra Klavins (30:07):
I love that. But that's exactly it. And sometimes
you need to, sometimes you stillneed to send out those emails,
because people, and we will havean episode on communication
channels and what to send,where, how and why and when. And
it's that's that's a whole,that's a whole rabbit hole, but,
you know, making sure you namethat inputs that that email the
same way, consistently, like,weekly status update that, or
(30:30):
like, you know, weekly statusmeeting, action items included
in, like, in all caps at theend, right? Yeah, decision,
decision required in all caps atthe end of that email title,
like, you know, like subjectline, it's, there's, there's
lots of different tools andtechniques. I love that you
brought up the whole email andsending it out. Thank you for
that right email.
Amanda Jane Lee (30:52):
Back when email, like, you would get 1000s
and 1000s of emails, because wedidn't have chat, right? We
didn't have, like, group chats.
Indra Klavins (30:59):
None of this. None of like, oh gosh, before
times the before the before theall the technology times
goodness,
Amanda Jane Lee (31:05):
right before all the technology times this
is, this is how we distributedmeeting notes.
Indra Klavins (31:10):
Yeah, I would, I, I'm, I'm about to go down a
rabbit hole. Has nothing to dowith meeting notes. So any other
last thoughts before we wrapthings up? Amanda,
Amanda Jane Lee (31:19):
um, no other than you know, meeting notes is
a craft. It's craft. It's acraft. And you have to much like
soft skills, right? You have to,you have to practice them, and
you have to take context intoconsideration, right? Who is
(31:39):
your audience? What are youtrying to achieve with these
meeting notes? Because that thatcan determine the method in
which you send them and how youstructure them, and like all of
the things,
Indra Klavins (31:53):
yeah, and I love the fact you're talking about
soft skills. It makes me think,use the approaches that work for
you, right? You can't unlessthere's some sort of, like, PMO
structure that's demandingsomething be done in certain
ways. Find the style that worksfor you, practice those skills,
test and learn, you know, see,see what works. See what works
(32:15):
for you. Yeah? And you can all.You can always ask for feedback
on your notes too. Like, doesthis structure make sense to
you? Yeah, everybody. Amanda,thank you again for always
joining me for this and havinganother thoughtful conversation.
Thanks to everyone forlistening. I hope that you all
got something out of today'sepisode, and I hope you'll join
(32:37):
us next time when we exploreanother topic from the messy
middle Bye, everyone. Bye.Thanks for taking time with us
in the messy middle. Word ofmouth remains most powerful way
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
you, we'd love it if you'dsubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite app, download a fewepisodes and share it with
(32:58):
someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore?
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
or in the show notes. Thank youfor joining us on this journey.
This work is better when we doit together. Until next time
you.
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm doing well. I'm doingwell today. We're talking about
a topic that received an awfullot of attention in the
workplace, meeting notes. Whoshould take them? Why do they
need to take them? And are theyeven necessary? If nobody reads
(00:33):
them?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:35):
Yeah. And are they necessary? Does anyone even
need to take them? Because thereare so many AI note takers
nowadays, that
Indra Klavins (00:41):
too, the, oh, the oath of robots, the robots, and
whether and, okay, well, we'llget into that. We will get into
that I love I have a mixedrelationship with them. But back
to beating notes, back tomeeting notes. For me, I love
them. I love take I actuallyenjoy taking meeting notes.
We'll get into a little bitabout why. I haven't always
(01:03):
loved taking meeting notes overthe course of my career, but I
really, really, really enjoythem because I think they're an
underappreciated skill, becausewhen you master that skill,
you're actually you become suchan important part of the
strategic direction of thethings that are going on at
work. And it's kind of cool,it's kind of cool, and it's kind
(01:24):
of rewarding. Yeah, you'reliterally writing history.
You're writing history, you'rewriting history. And so, you
know, I think maybe a good placefor us to start is like early in
our careers, in note taking, andwhat that was like, and then
evolving from there. So do youwant to go first? Should I go
first? Yeah, I think go first.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:44):
So, like, early in my career, I was assistant
coordinator. I I support. I wasan EA for all intents and
purposes, and I was often theone who had to take meeting
notes no matter the meeting Yep.And, you know, early in my
career, I didn't have the, Ididn't always have the business
(02:08):
context around said meeting,right, like I would some I would
sometimes be invited tomeetings, sometimes not, and it
was just my role to sit thereand transcribe. Essentially,
yeah, transcribe. And, you know,synthesize the notes, summarize
them, yep, and, you know, sendout the the action items, like,
(02:29):
who, who did what? Yeah. Um,that, that skill got developed,
and my meeting note taking, uh,evolved, yeah. Um, as I evolved
in my career, as I progressed inmy career, and I've, I've
learned that it's exactly whatyou said at the top of the of
(02:51):
the podcast here, of the episodeof it is, it's strategic, right?
You are writing history. You arecontrolling a bit of the
narrative. And at the veryleast, you are writing your
version of what you heard in themeeting, even if it isn't the
official document of record,even if, like someone else, is
(03:12):
the official note taker, I stilllike to take my own notes 100%
Indra Klavins (03:17):
like I think there is. There's so many places
to go, but I'll start with,like, the early in your career,
actually a question for you. Iknow how I did it, but like, how
did you How did you know what totake down, like in those early
days, like when you were earlyin your career or new to an
organization, because, yeah, howdid you know what to write down?
(03:38):
And how did you get it right inthose early days.
Amanda Jane Lee (03:41):
I mean, in my in the early, early early days,
I would just write down as muchas I could, read it all later,
and then figure out what wasimportant. And then you just,
you train yourself, right? Youtrain yourself. And then, like,
you read your notes, and youfigure out what's important. And
then the next time you're in ameeting like that. You listen
for those same things, right?You listen for those same people
(04:05):
who say, you know, this is thedecision. And you write that
down. You listen for the wordsaction item, and you write those
things down, and it's just, it'slearning by doing.
Indra Klavins (04:17):
Yeah, it's funny. I You made me remember at some
there was a moment in my careerwhere I thought about taking
stenography classes. Because,you know, before we all had
laptops and all that kind ofstuff, it was, you know, you're
working off of a desktopcomputer. Laptops were a luxury
back in the day, but, yeah, Ithought about that for me, I
(04:42):
think the I there's one personin particular. His name is Ryan,
who I who really helped me honemy note taking skills. I was
working at an agency. He was theclient partner for folks who
haven't been in an agency. It'sa very senior salesperson.
Basically, he's the person who'sowned. The relationship with the
clients. And I was his seniorproject manager, and he would
(05:06):
just really, he's like, makesure you get this one, make sure
you get that one, make sure youget that one. And then over the
course of time, I would do, youknow, he and I built a
relationship over over overyears, like we were both in the
financial services verticalthere, I just learned the
different things that worked anddidn't work, right, you know, in
(05:26):
the note taking, like, whatwasn't? Prepending everything
with action item that was anaction item. Prepending with
something that's a decision, adecision, prepending something
that is just, like, just notes,or just, you know, like
discussion, you know. And youfind a way. And I, you know, I
have not settled on a perfect,you know, what are the things
(05:47):
that I pre pen, but thatapproach, even if it varies from
from meeting to meeting, andit's not exactly the same ever
across the board, it really doeshelp with people. It helps me
categorize stuff and do my worka little bit better. And it
helps people who will be readingthose notes like, look for the
stuff that they're looking for.They're like, what's the action
(06:08):
item? Who's owning it? What'sthe due date? Okay, cool. I know
that. You know that that Jamesis taking care of that thing
over there, and I won't worryabout it, but I'll ask him on
that date, but before that date.I shouldn't nag him about it,
because it's not due until thatdate. You know, I learned a lot
of those little things, largelynot exclusively, from Ryan, but
Ryan was a main portion of that.Yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:31):
that's a good point, I think, you know, early
on in my career, I did havebuddies in meetings right where,
you know, they knew I was thenew kid on the block, and they
knew that I had not honed theseskills yet. And, you know, they
would take their own notes. Wewould compare notes. We would we
would see, you know, what, whatwe each thought was important,
(06:54):
or even like during the meeting.We would just, you know, someone
would just give me a look oflike, oh, okay, cool. You're
writing that down.
Indra Klavins (07:01):
Yeah, I still do that with people. Like, I still
do that. Like, I love that.Debrief with the people I trust.
Like, hey, Alexa, I know you'rea good note taker. Like, what
did I grab this, this, this, andthis? Am I missing anything?
She'll look at her notepad bookand be like, Nope, you're good.
I'm like, okay, cool. Or no, addthis one. I'm like, Oh yeah,
that's right. Need to add thatone in there. Like, having,
having a buddy, no matter whereyou are in your career. As far
(07:25):
as note taking, goes for gutchecks or just like sanity
checks, or, you know, crosschecks, or all the checks, is
really good. I'd say the otherthing in note taking, as I'm
taking as I'm note taking, thisgoes back to words matter.
Amanda's wearing her wordsmatter t shirt. I've got my
words matter mug today, but inis the jargon. Sometimes I take
(07:47):
things down or take names ofthings. I have no idea how to
spell that name. I have no idea,like, I'll just write it down
and I'll ask someone later. I'mlike, Hey, is that, you know,
whatever. And they're like, Ohno, no, no. I see how you
thought that that sounded thatway. That's this person over
here. Or like, oh, that's theirnickname. You'd already know
them as something else. I'mlike, Oh, okay. And, or, or
(08:10):
what's that abbreviation? Orwhat's that this? Or what's that
that? And you know, it's, it's,that's that follow up, and that
checking with my friends, orthat my trusted advisors, or
whatever it turns out to be, isreally important as part of my
note taking, before I send themout, which is going to be
something we'll
Amanda Jane Lee (08:26):
talk about. So, yeah, my thing like that, by the
way, is names of databases. Tellme more, yeah, just names of
databases where, like, I hear,like, someone, you know, usually
an engineer says, the name of adatabase, and it's important for
the notes. And before I writethat down and send it out, I
(08:47):
want to make sure that you knowit's it's captured correctly.
It's spelled correctly. It'scaptured correctly, you know,
whatever it is, so that peoplereading that know that's exactly
what we were referring to inthat meeting.
Indra Klavins (09:02):
Yeah, I think that's really important,
because, you know, differentparts of the business have
different languages that theyuse. We all have different
dialects of business, right? Andrarely do people are not rarely
off. More often than not, peoplejust let words that they don't
(09:24):
understand slide, you know. Andwe've talked about, like, I
mentioned the words matterepisode a couple of times now,
like, there is, there is thetime in the place where you ask
the clarifying question of, Whatdo you mean by that? Or there is
the time when you're like, Iknow that's a software,
programming language, a system,a service, a whatever that
engineers have called it somecookie name, whether it's our
engineers or engineers in thewild in the larger landscape,
(09:47):
it's not worth me stopping thismeeting to say, what is that and
how do I spell it? You write itdown well enough where you'll be
able to follow up with Mark orwhoever, and say, hey. Say, did
I get this right? And they'll,they'll be able to explain. I'm
like, Can I, can you give me adefinition for because I'm going
to put it in the meeting notes.And our business partners who
(10:08):
don't speak your dialect aremight be wondering, what this
thing?
Amanda Jane Lee (10:13):
Yeah, I think, you know, having this
conversation made me realizethere's two facets of it, right?
There's the what do you writedown in the meeting? It's the
actual taking of the notes. Andthen the second piece is the
send, organizing and sending outthe notes.
Indra Klavins (10:33):
Yes, which I think there are two
complementary skills of thecraft of note taking, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (10:41):
It's like knowing, knowing what's
important to take down, and thenknowing how to organize it, so
that you you know what the nextsteps are, and that it's clear
to everyone what the what themeeting was about, what was
discussed, what what theoutcomes were,
Indra Klavins (10:59):
100% Yeah, totally. So let's talk about,
like I did talk a little bitabout, like, some of the tools
and techniques that I've pickedup along the way around the the
cleaning up of the notes beforesending them further, like the
cleaning of the notes, you know,with that prepending of things,
which sort of does create itsown little bit of a taxonomy to
(11:21):
the notes and a logicalorganizing structure, or a
visual or it's not a visualmnemonic. It's like, it's a
whatever. It's an indicator ofsome sort of classification.
What are your favorite tools andtechniques when you're like,
cleaning up your notes beforeyou
Amanda Jane Lee (11:35):
send them out? Yeah, I again, this is just
learned life experience where II found a template that works
for me, like you, like you saidthat you like to prepend Yeah,
action items with action item,yeah, I like to do that and put
them all like in the samesection, and usually at the top,
(11:58):
right at the top of the MeetingNotes, action items. If you read
nothing else, this is thesection you read. This is the
section you read. It's veryclear in multiple ways that this
is an action item. And who ownsthat action item? Yeah,
Indra Klavins (12:14):
it's and there's no right or wrong. My bias is
always my bias is usually tokeep it in the way that the
conversation flowed, becausethat helps me remember that,
like I see the picture that way,and neither is right or wrong.
Everybody's got to find theirown style for themselves and for
their scenario. Like, if Iworked in a workplace where that
was, like, more effective, Iwould totally steal that
approach from you or borrowYeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:34):
it depends on the organization. It depends on
who's reading the notes. It'skeeping your audience in mind,
right? Like, a lot of themeetings that I, I've run in my
career, are for the people who,like, who cares about the
context. Like, I just want toknow what, what the decisions
were, what the action itemswere, yeah, and what, if there's
anything I need to do, is therean action item for me? Yeah?
(12:56):
Like that. That's what isimportant. And I've also
sometimes included just the rawmeeting notes at the bottom,
like appendix. Here's my rawnotes, if, if you want to really
read through them, or, I mean,in these days, you know, here's
the AI transcription
Indra Klavins (13:13):
of the meeting and, you know, but there might
be some meetings, depending onmy forum, I'd be like, hey, here
are my raw notes. I'm notcleaning them. Like, I'm like,
here's my raw notes. I trust youguys understand with the typos
and all, like, we're moving tooquickly. Like, let's go right?
And that can work sometimes too.It's not you know, you don't
(13:34):
have to always clean your notes.It's it you'll, you need to know
you'll, you'll, you need to knowyour context, and you'll need to
know what works best,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:42):
right? And like, just being strategic about
it, right? Like, if you if it isa meeting where there were a lot
of action items, and if thoseaction items are not complete,
we are blocked, then youstructure your notes a certain
way. If it was more of acollaboration brainstorming
meeting, maybe you don't need tostructure your notes at
Indra Klavins (14:01):
all. Yeah, totally. And I think that you
just said strategic, which is,you know, one of the things that
I've got so many stories when itcomes to strategic stuff, but
I'll pick one, somebody that youand I used to work with, Corey.
We were in a meeting. Corey is abig advocate of making sure that
workplaces are equitable and thework is distributed properly.
(14:24):
And he joined the organization,and we were in some sort of
leadership meeting, and I wasalways taking the notes. And
Corey is like, and like, he'slike, he's like, Indra, you
don't need to take, I think heeven said it out loud, Indra,
you don't need to take thenotes, or you don't need to
always take the notes. I'm like,no Corey, I will. And then after
the meeting, I explained to him,I'm like, Corey, my taking of
(14:47):
the notes like, I appreciate theprotection, because the notes
use often, not usually, oftenenough they go to the person
with the least amount of powerin the room, right? And that
could be societal power. Or thatcould be little hierarchy power.
There's lots of different thingsthat can happen. I said to him,
I said, Corey, I said, I knowthat in certain forums, if I
(15:08):
write the notes, I can helpdrive the strategy, and I know I
can do a better job of it thaneverybody else, and that's in
this conversation. And so forthose reasons, I'm holding on to
taking the meeting notes. Iinvite you to check me every
once in a while to make surethat I am still doing it for
those reasons, and it has thatvalue, but I'm going to take the
meeting. Okay? That makes sense,yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:33):
yeah, yeah, I and I think that's just again, a
learned experience, right? Likeyou, you learn from experience
where, oh, the notes actually dohave weight and value and like
the way things are captured andsaid and documented as like
(15:56):
system of record, yes, is reallyimportant. And if you are the
one who's doing that, you havepower, whether you realize it or
not you really
Indra Klavins (16:07):
do. And you know, the other thing that, like
another signal, that I knew thatI was really good at it was I
had a boss. His name was Satya,and he was it was one of these
leadership meetings that we'vetalked about in the last episode
that had like no purpose. Itwas, it was a lot of leaders
saying lots and lots and lots ofwords, but we never got to
(16:30):
anything. And so I joined theorganization he taught and
joined around the same time, andI would use my approach that
around using a shared documentto define the agenda. The same
agenda was where I captured allthe meeting notes, and that way
we would have one system ofrecord for everything to look
at. Like, what have we talkedabout over the past forever?
(16:51):
Like, as long as that documenthas existed and we were walking
out of a meeting once he goes,you know, Indra, not only do I
like what you do write down, Ilike what you don't write down,
and I also like how you phrasethings, so we can all remember
what we talked about. But thatthing never made it onto paper.
Because there are some thingsthat should actually never make
it onto paper because you youdon't want it to the information
(17:13):
to inevit, um, unintentionallyland in the wrong hands. Someone
will look over somebody'sshoulder, whatever it might be.
So like, those types ofcompliments are the ones where,
you know, like, Oh, I'm I'mhelping with strategy here. I'm
taking meeting notes, and I'mhelping strategy. Yeah, right.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:29):
And you know, back to what you said about
about Corey, right? Like he wastrying to protect you. He was
trying to protect me. It wastrying to protect you. He, he
was like, Oh, well, you don'thave to always do the
administrative thing. That'swhen I get annoyed when somebody
is like, Amanda, can you takethe notes? And it's like, this
(17:50):
isn't my meeting. This isn't mymy my topic of discussion. I'm
going to take notes for myself,but you're all on your own. To
take your own notes and actionitems,
Indra Klavins (18:01):
facts. You need to have boundaries. You can't,
you can't do it for everyone allthe time, 100% 100% and that's
for me, where those you know,I'll create, sometimes it
depends on the environment, butlike, I'll create the shared
document that everyone can dumptheir notes into. Yeah, well,
I've
Amanda Jane Lee (18:19):
done that too, right? Like, Okay, Amanda, can
you take the notes? All right,this isn't my meeting. This
isn't my bag, but you know, I'mhere to facilitate the
conversation and to make surethat you guys have action items
and you guys know what you'redoing, but I'm not going to be
the one capturing it, because Idon't have all of the context
here, like you can all takenotes while you're speaking. And
(18:41):
so I'm happy to create the doc,share the doc link in the in the
meeting, and say, here's whereI'm taking notes, or I'm trying
to take notes. Please, pleasejoin me. Please correct all of
the misspellings of thedatabases that I'm going to
write down. And
Indra Klavins (18:58):
then what I'll do is in that document, I loved it.
Like, as a officer is put at thetop of it. This is a shared
document, and the controleveryone in the team is
responsible for adding to it,like, or something like that.
Like, it sets expectations. Soit's not like, well, Indra, you
created the document, so we justassumed, like, no, no, did you
read that thing at the top,which I highlighted in yellow
(19:18):
and made it really, really bold.Like, did you read that? I
created it because I know how tocreate documents really quickly.
But not my meeting, not mymeeting
Amanda Jane Lee (19:27):
notes right now, my meeting, not my meeting
notes. Happy to help where Ican, but this is all you. I'm
reminding you all that this isall you and yeah, just going
back to the having a buddy in ameeting. Yeah, you know, I'll,
I'll often identify a buddy andbe like, Hey, can you please,
(19:49):
like, Help me take notes in thismeeting? Because otherwise,
like, no one's gonna writeanything down.
Indra Klavins (19:55):
And this is where your AI comes into play. Like,
there's enough AI Notes. Takersthat are out there. I have a
very good relationship with myAIS, I think, but I also know
that they are I think of my AISas interns. Interns are
wonderful. They're enthusiastic.They often do good work, and
they often get it wrong. So Iuse that as my backup, like let
(20:18):
me get the literal words, andlet's see what an AI can pull
together. That's sort of mybackup on note taking. And then
I will take what they take. Inever send out what they did,
like exactly as is. I take alook at I'm like, Oh, that's
interesting. I forgot aboutthat. I'll take the pieces and
I'll create a new notes documentand send that off. Because what
the AI is lacking, it's lackingcontext, a whole lot of context,
(20:43):
it only knows what it knows fromthat meeting and maybe other
meetings that it was a part of.Like each AI has got a different
algorithm and knowledge base andall that kind of stuff. But
assume that it only knows whatwas discussed in that exact
forum at that particular time,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:58):
right the business context that baby
Amanda was was missing way backearly in my career, 100%
Indra Klavins (21:04):
like and it's like, you, oh, no, sorry. The AI
did not hear that sideconversation that happened over
slack, for example,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:13):
right? The AI doesn't know that this person
who said this thing is the mostimportant person in the room,
and they should have taken downbasically everything that this
person said and
Indra Klavins (21:27):
ignored everything that that really
loquacious. The person who haslots and lots of words was
saying that stuff. Not soimportant. We let them talk
because that's sort of our teamdynamic, and they they need to
get it out. We all understandthat, but that's not the most
important thing, and that's notthe thing that we're going to
focus on next right? Valuable.That's next quarter
(21:47):
conversation, though. That's notthis quarter conversation or
this week conversation,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:51):
right? Just because Steve was saying that we
should do all of these thingsdoesn't mean we should do all of
these things. No,
Indra Klavins (21:57):
no. And that's and that's so use it as a
backup. Use it as a reference. Ii Oh, like I keep and say it's
always as I think of them asthey're an intern. I think of
them as an intern. I cannot,really, I cannot wholeheartedly
rely on my AI to take the bestmeeting notes. But I love having
it there, because sometimes Iwon't have, I won't have the
(22:19):
time to write it all down. Andsometimes I will rely on the ad
to do all the notes during it,but then I'll rewrite them
afterwards, like I'll take whatthey have to remind me what the
conversation was, and then gofrom there. So I'm giving you
the full transcript so you canactually go back and look at it,
so which is kind of fun, too. SoRight? Yeah, that reminds me of
a conversation, like I was in ameeting, and I did my thing
(22:41):
right? I opened up my notesdocument. I started taking
notes. I i Even, because I wasleading the meeting, I shared my
screen with my live note takingso that everybody could see my
live note taking.
Amanda Jane Lee (22:55):
And I got a Slack DM, like, Why do you take
your own notes, like there's anAI like, use right? Why are you
taking the notes? Like you don'ttrust the AI note taker? And I
was like, It's not that I don'ttrust the AI note taker. It's I
like to have my own notes for myown context, and again, with the
(23:18):
strategic angle, um, using theright words, yeah, to drive the
next steps,
Indra Klavins (23:26):
yeah, you actually just highlighted
something that I had that thatis so important, or it's such a
useful skill when you're on thatmore advanced side of note
taking, that I think we need toTalk about screen sharing.
Screen sharing is one of my ifyou see me in a Zoom meeting,
odds are that at some point Iwill wind up sharing my screen.
(23:48):
It gives everybody in thisscenario for this particular
topic, it gives everyonesomething to focus on, right and
they stay. They're more likelyto stay in the conversation than
answer slack messages or chatmessages or emails on the side
like they're more likely to staypresent. And by doing the live
note taking they are that givesthem an added focus. They can
(24:11):
see there are notes happening,and they'll be like, oh, did she
get that right? And when say tolike, Amanda, you didn't get
that right, you're like, great.It's a shared notes document you
want to fix that database namefor me, because I know I'm not
going to get it right. Andthey'll go and they'll do the
thing, and which is great,they're more engaged, and
they're part of the solution,which is really kind of fun.
Amanda Jane Lee (24:30):
Yeah, I do it, yes, and I do it because it
creates a shared under what'shappening in the meeting. Yes,
100%
Indra Klavins (24:41):
100% I also love the fact that you said yes, and
that's why I've had the giggle.If anybody heard my giggle, it's
such a useful thing from theimprov world, that is useful in
the workplace too, and part ofconversations yes and yes,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:57):
and it creates a shared understanding for
everyone in the. Room, yeah, inthe or in the virtual room,
yeah, where, you know, yes, thisis Amanda's meeting. This
Amanda's taking the notes. ButI'm, I'm looking at this and
fact checking the notes thatshe's taking, right? Like, oh,
she totally got that wrong. Letme raise my hand. Hey, Amanda,
(25:19):
you I think you misunderstood?Oh, I did. Let's talk about it.
Because if I'm if Imisunderstood, maybe someone
else did too. Ding, ding, ding,
Indra Klavins (25:28):
everyone leaves the conversation with shared
understanding, one of ourfavorite phrases, right? Like,
shared understanding iseverything, and then the meeting
has value. You know, the meetinghas value and is delivering on
its promise, which is lovely,lovely when the meetings
actually have value and theydon't dislike meander, because
people like to hear themselvestalk,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:50):
right? And the creation of that Doc is the
creation of that artifact thatyou can refer to later.
Indra Klavins (25:59):
And sometimes it's months later, sometimes
months later. And you know, youdon't want to over invest in
stuff, but it is, you're likeyou've said the word, system of
record. It is the it is thehistory keeping. It is the it's
a lot. There's a lot of value toit. And you don't know why,
when, where, and how that'sgoing to pay off, but it often
(26:20):
does
Amanda Jane Lee (26:21):
right? It's like you had the meeting. You
might as well get the benefitsof the meeting right. You might
as well write down what wasdiscussed in that meeting, in
case you need it later, in
Indra Klavins (26:32):
case you need it later. And last episode was
about, Gosh, my brain iscompletely forgetting from all
the way from last week. But wetalked about follow through.
Let's talk about sending outmeeting notes.
Amanda Jane Lee (26:43):
Yeah, yeah. Because, well, back to the AI
thing related. But AI thingpeople will invite their AI note
takers. The AI note takers willtake the notes. Where are the
notes to refer to later? Likeit's either just in someone's
google drive somewhere, or,like, on their personal machine,
(27:04):
or like attached to, it's justlost in the ether, right? Like
there, there's this art offollow up of, okay, we took the
notes. Let's distribute thenotes, and let's organize the
notes. Let's distribute thenotes. Let's, you know, what I
like to do is I, you know, for aGoogle meeting, the notes Doc is
(27:26):
attached to the calendar.Invite, yes, but I also like to
link that doc to a centrallocation, yes,
Indra Klavins (27:35):
yes. You can find it in lots of different so
Amanda Jane Lee (27:37):
you can find it later, so that you're not
combing through your calendarand your 1000s of meetings on
your calendar, wondering, weespecially for a recurring
meeting. You're like, what weekdid we talk about that thing?
Indra Klavins (27:48):
Yeah, yeah. And like, I think that you made me
think of something silly that Isay when I, when I, I do it in a
couple of different contexts.But like, in this context, if
you're taking the time to writethe notes, make sure you send
them out. Because my littlesilly saying is, like, if a bear
poops in the woods and doesn'ttell anyone about it, does he
(28:10):
get credit for it? The answer isno. If you take the meeting
notes and you don't send themout, do you get credit for it?
No. Like, just make sure thatyou're doing and in some cases,
everyone knows it's in themeeting invite, and it's in the
shared drive, and it's in allthe places. So you may not need
to do that, but like, maybethere's something that you send
out a Slack message saying, hey,hey, folks, made sure I cleaned
(28:31):
up the meeting notes. Here's thelink as a reminder. Check it out
and make any corrections orcomments. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:37):
that that's my method. I you know, even though
it's understood that the meetingnotes are attached to the invite
and that this is a this is astanding meeting, and we know,
we all know where the notes are,I like to send a message to
remind people these are wherethe notes are, and to please
review the notes, in casesomething is incorrect, in case
(28:59):
Amanda just did not understandwhat happened in this meeting,
and everything she wrote downwas wrong.
Indra Klavins (29:07):
It's, you know what I say? I like to make new
mistakes every single day, and Iguarantee you that I make new
mistakes every single day,Amanda, you'll make mistakes.
I'll make mistakes. We all makemistakes, and it takes all of us
as a community at work right toget this stuff right as a
collective,
Amanda Jane Lee (29:22):
yeah, I back when, back when email was more
of the thing, and, like, Slackwas less of the thing. I used to
send my notes, yeah, you know,over email, and in order to get
people to acknowledge, I wouldput in, you know, bold, bigger,
font, highlighted, underlined atthe top, like, you know, please,
(29:46):
please correct anything that mayhave been misstated here. If you
know, if an approval is needed,it'd be like, everyone needs to
approve this by this date. Andthen I would say, if I don't
receive. Receive your like, anexplicit reply, I am going to
assume everything is good.
Indra Klavins (30:07):
I love that. But that's exactly it. And sometimes
you need to, sometimes you stillneed to send out those emails,
because people, and we will havean episode on communication
channels and what to send,where, how and why and when. And
it's that's that's a whole,that's a whole rabbit hole, but,
you know, making sure you namethat inputs that that email the
same way, consistently, like,weekly status update that, or
(30:30):
like, you know, weekly statusmeeting, action items included
in, like, in all caps at theend, right? Yeah, decision,
decision required in all caps atthe end of that email title,
like, you know, like subjectline, it's, there's, there's
lots of different tools andtechniques. I love that you
brought up the whole email andsending it out. Thank you for
that right email.
Amanda Jane Lee (30:52):
Back when email, like, you would get 1000s
and 1000s of emails, because wedidn't have chat, right? We
didn't have, like, group chats.
Indra Klavins (30:59):
None of this. None of like, oh gosh, before
times the before the before theall the technology times
goodness,
Amanda Jane Lee (31:05):
right before all the technology times this
is, this is how we distributedmeeting notes.
Indra Klavins (31:10):
Yeah, I would, I, I'm, I'm about to go down a
rabbit hole. Has nothing to dowith meeting notes. So any other
last thoughts before we wrapthings up? Amanda,
Amanda Jane Lee (31:19):
um, no other than you know, meeting notes is
a craft. It's craft. It's acraft. And you have to much like
soft skills, right? You have to,you have to practice them, and
you have to take context intoconsideration, right? Who is
(31:39):
your audience? What are youtrying to achieve with these
meeting notes? Because that thatcan determine the method in
which you send them and how youstructure them, and like all of
the things,
Indra Klavins (31:53):
yeah, and I love the fact you're talking about
soft skills. It makes me think,use the approaches that work for
you, right? You can't unlessthere's some sort of, like, PMO
structure that's demandingsomething be done in certain
ways. Find the style that worksfor you, practice those skills,
test and learn, you know, see,see what works. See what works
(32:15):
for you. Yeah? And you can all.You can always ask for feedback
on your notes too. Like, doesthis structure make sense to
you? Yeah, everybody. Amanda,thank you again for always
joining me for this and havinganother thoughtful conversation.
Thanks to everyone forlistening. I hope that you all
got something out of today'sepisode, and I hope you'll join
(32:37):
us next time when we exploreanother topic from the messy
middle Bye, everyone. Bye.Thanks for taking time with us
in the messy middle. Word ofmouth remains most powerful way
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
you, we'd love it if you'dsubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite app, download a fewepisodes and share it with
(32:58):
someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore?
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
or in the show notes. Thank youfor joining us on this journey.
This work is better when we doit together. Until next time
you.
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