July 23, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee explore the language used in hiring, specifically the overused and often problematic terms “rockstar” and “unicorn.” They unpack how these labels, while meant to signal excellence, can set unrealistic expectations and perpetuate individualism over collaboration. Along the way, they highlight the real risks of unicorn hunting, the myth of the full-stack engineer, and why generalists deserve more love. They also explore different “letter-shaped” professionals (T-shaped, I-shaped, M-shaped, and more) and discuss how mismatched job titles, overloaded expectations, and leadership insecurity can hinder team performance. And yes, they even tip their hats to The Bangles while rethinking what being a “rockstar” really means at work.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm good. I'm good. Todaywe're going to be talking about
a couple of words that make bothof our skins crawl. We're going
to be talking about rock starsand unicorns. To be clear,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:34):
I like unicorns. I like the idea of
unicorns. Unicorns, you know,they're pretty and sparkly, but
they're
Indra Klavins (00:42):
not real. They're not real despite Scotland having
it, I think, as their nationalanimal. But yes, they are not.
They do not exist still today inthis universe. No, no, they do
not, nor do well, rock stars doexist, but we'll talk a little
bit more about that. But let'sbefore we go in and dig into our
conversation. I did ask chat GPTto give me a couple of working
(01:03):
definitions that we can use sothat all of our listeners are
baselined in their understandingof the two terms. So a rock star
is a high performing standoutcandidate or employee who
consistently deliversexceptional results, often
exceeding expectations. The termis used to describe someone with
a strong track record, deepexpertise and the ability to
(01:25):
thrive under pressure. Acontextual note is that while
it's meant as praise, callingsomeone a rock star, it can
sometimes signal to signal focuson an individual performance
over a collaboration, orperpetuate a culture that
rewards visible wins rather thansustainable team based success.
(01:46):
It may also reflect a biastowards charisma or confidence
rather than competence orconsistency. I love me. I love I
love it when chat GPG just cannail something for me and say
the words in a really clear wayI was
Amanda Jane Lee (02:01):
gonna say chat GPT, nailed that,
Indra Klavins (02:04):
nailed it, nailed it, nailed it. And if I ever say
it on this episode, I name mychat GPD, Kathy. So we talk
about Kathy. Y'all know thatthat's, that's my nickname for
chat GPD, and how I've trainedher. Okay, so unicorns, the
definition that Kathy gave mefor unicorn is a unicorn is a
rare candidate who meets anunusually specific or ideal set
(02:26):
of criteria, often combiningtechnical excellence, strategic
thinking, cross functionalfluency and interpersonal skills
that seem to too good to betrue. The contextual note that
she gave us is hiring managersoften say that they're looking
for a unicorn when the whenwriting a job description, it
(02:47):
lists out unreal. It lists outan unrealistic combination of
skills or experience. It canindicate perfectionism in hiring
expectations, or misalignmentbetween the roles needs and
market realities. The term mayunintentionally discourage
qualified candidates fromapplying so magical thinking,
magical thinking, when it comesto you, when somebody writes out
(03:10):
that job description that'slooking unicorn hunting, unicorn
hunting,
Amanda Jane Lee (03:16):
right? And the definitions that you just read
off say a lot of things aboutideals, right? Idealistic
expectations, unrealisticexpectations. So why are
companies looking for thosethings 100%
Indra Klavins (03:33):
and I find that that's usually it can come out
of we talked about it in recentepisode, scarcity mindset, like
this feeling of like, I need aunicorn, like, there's, there's,
everyone believes that theseunicorns exist, and I it's it
doesn't Right. Or it could bebudgetary constraints, or it can
be pressure from like, theirneed to deliver or something,
(03:54):
and what they're being asked todo is unrealistic. So they look
for a candidate that's just asunrealistic. It's just like it
perpetuates and snowballs. Yeah,I think you
Amanda Jane Lee (04:04):
know both rock star and unicorn, those terms
disguise, like the company'slack of clarity, or, like, not
knowing what they want, right? Ifeel like a lot of the time the
company is just not sure whatthey want, so they're just like,
(04:24):
You know what? We're just gonnawrite all this stuff down and
hope that someone comes alongwho can read our minds and just
like, know what to do and goodat all of it.
Indra Klavins (04:35):
That's exactly it. That's exactly it. I mean,
it's, it's, yes, yeah, yeah. Solet's talk a little bit about
more about the unicorn fallacy.We'll dig into them really
specifically. So unicornfallacy, yeah, it's, it's, have
you ever found a unicorn? Orhave you, like, have you found a
(04:56):
I mean, I've got lots ofscenarios where people go
unicorn. Hunting. And like Isaid, it's usually in that job
description phase, and my job isoften to help them reset
expectations, you know, figureout exactly why they've decided
that they need somebody who candesign, code, create a marketing
(05:19):
strategy, you know, and figureout how to tease things apart so
that we can set some realistic,realistic expectations when
we're going to the market. Like,those are the scenarios for me
when it comes to the unicornhunting that I've seen happen.
Do you have any sort ofscenarios that come to mind for
you? Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:39):
not, not explicitly unicorn hunting,
right? I can't recall. Doesn'tmean I didn't experience it, but
I can't recall a company Iworked for that posted a job
description that was like, youknow, we want rock stars, we
want unicorns, right? But Iparticipated in a lot of hiring
(05:59):
panels, and I got that I wasable to experience the ins and
outs of being on those panels,and the feedback in those
conversations that happen. AndI've seen cases where everything
seemed great from a feedbackperspective, yeah, but you know,
(06:20):
there, there were comments oflike, oh, well, they were great.
And all of these things that, bythe way, we asked for, yeah,
they can't do this, this, this,this, and this, and it's just
like, Okay, well, you're nevergonna find that person like,
here are some things like, let'sbe realistic here. Here are some
things that you need to change,right? Like, one, your
expectations. Two, if you'reexpecting all of these things,
(06:42):
you can't be paying this low ofa number.
Indra Klavins (06:46):
I love the fact that you talked about, like the
job description, the personticked all the marks, right?
Like everything that was there,all the requirements, maybe even
the nice to haves, right? Youknow, the in the job
description. But then there'sall these things that can get
inserted at the at the 11thHour, often enough because that
(07:07):
person who's adding thoserequirements just experienced
some stress in a meeting thatthis person could like. They're
like, well, we need somebody whoalso knows how to do costume
design. I know that we talkedthat we need a software
engineer, but I also needsomebody who specializes in
sequence, right? Dude. I mean,that's an that's a clearly
(07:29):
fictitious example, but, yeah,it's, it can be that that knee
jerk reaction that shows up inthat, in that panel discussion,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:38):
yeah, it's, you don't necessarily have to start
off unicorn hunting, but youmight end up unicorn
Indra Klavins (07:45):
accidentally, yeah, if you don't check
yourself. And I think that it'sa really fair I mean, I noted
the one of the reasons that Ioften find that people are
hunting for their unicorns isbudget constraints. But then you
you because you can't hire thethree people that you need to
actually do the job. You put itall into one job description.
(08:07):
You offer the one salary. Andanyone who has that kind of, any
form of, that kind of super setof skills, is going to and if
they know their worth, they'renever gonna settle for that,
like 1/3
Amanda Jane Lee (08:23):
right? They're gonna realize really quick that
this is actually three separatejobs.
Indra Klavins (08:29):
Gosh, gosh, yeah, it's wild. It's wild. So okay,
so we talked a little bit aboutthe unicorns. Let's talk about
the rock stars. But like, Ithink that we're talking about
it earlier, like this, often issomething that can land. It's
not necessarily in the seekingof a new person for the team. It
really appears as the teamexists. And like, during the day
(08:53):
to day work and some of thestuff that goes there, and there
is this, when I think of rockstars in general, like are the
classic pop culture example islike, what's on their rider,
right? What's on their writer?Do they need only Green M, M's
like, what's on their right?
Amanda Jane Lee (09:11):
I saw a meme sort of recently that was to, I
wish I had pulled it up andfound it and pulled it up before
this episode, but it wassomething to the effect of,
everybody wants to hire a rockstar, but then they get mad that
they show up late and like, havea list of demands. Like, what do
you want?
Indra Klavins (09:32):
You hired an ego, and that's, you know, and
sometimes, sometimes it is. Itcan be worth having that rock
star, like, there was somebodywho I inherited on one of my
teams along the way, and, youknow, he refused to be on calls,
he refused to come into theoffice. He refused to, like,
(09:54):
there are all these differentthings, and it was because he
was hired at a time when. We, Imean, it was a very particular
skill set that we needed. But aswe built out the team and we had
more people who could do thesame job as this person, like it
became problematic. It becameproblematic and it was, it was
(10:17):
really interesting with me tohelp, like, trying to navigate
and understand how much I neededto hold on to this person who
was the rock star for all thistime, versus how I could create
a healthy balance on the teamthat I was leading. Yeah, as you
were
Amanda Jane Lee (10:32):
describing this rock star, a few rock stars I've
encountered in my career came tomind, and it they all have that
income, at least the people Ihave in mind, they all have that
they were hired at an earlierstage. They were, you know, they
had a certain set of skills, orthey had that more generalist
(10:56):
skill set, because they couldwear many hats, and it was
possible to be a higher achieverbecause the the company was
small at the time, yes, yes. Andright. And like, they've,
they've just built all of thissocial capital within the
company as well. And as thecompany grew and scaled, it's
(11:17):
like, well, you, you know, picka lane. Yeah, you don't need to
do all of it, and you don't needto act that way. No,
Indra Klavins (11:26):
no, you don't. It's, it's, and it sort of
makes, it doesn't, sort of itdoes make enough of your other
team members feel like, likeless than like, when you keep on
calling that person, oh, they'rethe rock star, they're the this,
they're the that, like a thosepeople feel, you know, like
less, like I said, less thanthey can feel a little bit icky,
(11:49):
and it can also, then, if theysee, you know, Mr. Mrs. Rock
star, getting rewarded for thismore garish behavior. It then
encourages people, especiallyearly in their career, to act
more garishly. Like, I'm sittinghere thinking around it's not
(12:11):
quite the same, but it is thesame. Like, so I worked at
WeWork. I worked there duringthe like, the peak and the
downfall, like, so it was, itwas like, it was, it was really
interesting, well documented,too, and like Adam Newman. Adam
Newman was our CEO. What apersonality like, what a
personality. And you know, inthe startup world, you do need a
(12:35):
leader who is, has magicalthinking, who is, who can rally
people, who can pull folkstogether, who can like,
galvanize folks and create amovement of sorts, right? But
what can happen is that the restof the talent then starts to act
that way. And I'm not, and I'mnot saying that I they happened
(12:58):
all over the place, or whateverI like, either we work had some
of the most talented, heartfeltindividuals. Like, I just want
to just, like, really, reallyset that straight, because
there's a lot of misconceptionsaround what it was like to work
at WeWork and who was workingthere. But from time to time,
you'd see somebody acting in aparticular way, and you're like,
Whoa, whoa, whoa, that works forAdam, not going to work here.
(13:21):
Just like, and I see how you getswept up in that, and you start
to emulate these types ofbehaviors, and you don't even
think about it's not evennecessarily in your nature. And
you start doing some of these,like, things like, Oh, if he was
successful for doing that, maybeI should try that out. That's
not that doesn't. That does. Ifyou have too many people who are
rock stars on a team, or thinkthat they're rock stars, you
(13:43):
breed a whole nother set ofproblems,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:46):
right? And I think calling people rock stars
is is a slippery slope. And Ithink in many cases, it's not
meant to be, you know, negative,right? It's meant to be like,
it's very well intentioned,right? 100% very well
intentioned. Like, you know,Indra, you're a rock star. Like,
(14:09):
you're, you're just crushing it.You're a rock star. And, you
know, when I've been called arock star, I because of, I
guess, just what I'veexperienced of other people, you
know, being called rock stars,and this behavior that happens,
and all of the things we justmentioned, when I've been called
(14:29):
a rock star, I have, like, akind of reaction now. I'm like,
Thank you, but really, like, Idon't know, like, I don't want
to, I don't, I don't need thatpressure of maintaining rock
star status, I guess is what I'mtrying to say. I
Indra Klavins (14:46):
like that. I like that. But I also like the fact
that you talked about how likethat first time that someone
calls you a rock star, it feelskind of good. It does. It does.
And
Amanda Jane Lee (14:56):
then you realize what it takes to be a
rock star and to maintain thatrock. Our status, and it's just
an unnecessary amount ofpressure, and
Indra Klavins (15:06):
it's unrealistic. You want to be a nurse person
again, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (15:10):
And then you think about how, you know, like
we mentioned, how it impacts therest of the team, and you're
like, oh, this actually isn't agood thing,
Indra Klavins (15:19):
yeah? And I think that, you know, I, what I where
I've seen it used, well, thatphrase is, you know, Amanda was
a rock star in this particularsituation. You know, for this
week, we needed her to step up.And she was a rock star in this
moment. And we're not going toexpect that for her forever, but
she knew how important this was.And high fives for Amanda for
(15:39):
stepping up in this moment.Like, you can, you know,
deputize somebody as a temporaryrock star. And I think that's a
good way to use some sort ofaccolade, you know, and whether
or not you use, like, literally,that phrase or not, you know,
there's, there's, there's othersynonyms for rock stars that are
out there, or, you know, evensometimes they, Oh, you're such
a unicorn, you can do so manythings like use it very
(16:01):
judiciously, if it does slip outor add a qualifier afterwards
and say, Hey, you're awesome.Thank you. I don't expect that
of you all the time, right? Butlike for this moment, I'm so
happy you did it, and thank you.We're all grateful for it.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:16):
Yeah, it's just going back to setting realistic
expectations,
Indra Klavins (16:20):
realistic expectations. And another thing,
like another thing, it's not theit's not a rock star, it's not a
unicorn. But another term that Ihear an awful lot, that is an,
in my opinion, is an unrealisticexpectation. Is the myth of a
full stack engineer, a fullstack designer, a full stack any
human being. I don't, I thinkit's I find this term
(16:43):
problematic. I don't know whatyou're and we're going to dig
into this. So don't worry,folks, I'm not going to just say
this line and, like, walk awayfrom it. But you know, I don't
know what your impression is ofthat terminology or experiences
with that particular turn ofphrase or label or type.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:57):
Yeah. Full Stack is an interesting one,
because I do think the idea, theconcept of a full stack
engineer, exists, but what weare defining as a full stack and
with the broader we are definingas a full stack engineer,
perhaps, is not the mostrealistic. I think it's a good
(17:17):
way to phrase it. I think thatthere is
Indra Klavins (17:21):
when somebody hears full stack engineer, their
brain automatically assumes, oh,they can do everything, and they
can do it all like a rock star,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (17:31):
They can do all of the things, and they can do
all of the things well. And thatis not realistic. No,
Indra Klavins (17:37):
no, which is where I love the terminology,
something I was introduced toyears ago when we first came
into the zeitgeist, it was eyepeople and T shaped people. So
the eye shaped person issomebody with deep like they're
a specialist, they're reallydeep in one particular field or
(17:58):
skill, or whatever it might be,like they are just really
focused on that, and don'tnecessarily have other skills.
So if we're thinking, let's justuse software engineers and
continue down that. They're a,you know, they're a database
engineer. They know databasesreally well. That's their skill
set. You should never ask themto create HTML or, you know,
(18:19):
micro services or whatever elseyou might need to do. They
really specialize in something.And then there's the idea of a T
shaped person. So T shapedperson, you can think of it like
a tree, like there's a trunk ofa tree. They're really good at
database engineering, but theyhave enough skills where they
can dabble in HTML, they candabble in micro services. They
can dabble in I always use flashtechnology as my ridiculous
(18:42):
example sometimes, but like,there's some other, there's
other technologies that theycan, they can they can function
in and they can support on an asneeded basis, or they can
pontificate on and give a littlebit of perspective on, like the
I's and the T's. Since then, awhole bunch of other letters
have showed up into thevocabulary I never understand.
What any of those are.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:03):
I know during our prep call, we went into some
of the other letters, and I'mlike, are we just making things
up? Now it's alphabet soup,right?
Indra Klavins (19:12):
People are Wait, what was our favorite one? So I
think we both had heard of m'sand W's, which, again, we'll get
it. We might touch on those alittle bit, but the ones that
stuck out for both of us werethe x's and the pi's. Like, when
did the Greek alphabet show up?
Amanda Jane Lee (19:30):
And I read the definition, and I'm like, I
still don't really get it,
Indra Klavins (19:34):
but, like, so back to the full stack engineer.
I think that full stackengineers are generally T's,
right? They are teas. And, youknow, leveraging that, that like
tea metaphor, and that treemetaphor that I was just
thinking about, like, there'syour trunk, you can be like a
banyan tree, and these aerialroots might drop down to the
ground to help support and youdraw more nutrition from the
(19:55):
ground. You might have like,Hey, I also can do HTML. I also
can do micro. Services. I canalso do XML. I can also do, you
know, whatever, whatever pieceof technology. But it's your
trunk.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:08):
Is your trunk, right? Your trunk is like the
solid, rooted this is yourdomain. This is your expertise.
I love the visual of a banyantree. The Banyan the Lahaina
banyan tree is special to bothof us. But, yeah, like, and the
aerial roots there, they exist,and they're all over the place,
but they're not as solid as thatmain trunk, no.
Indra Klavins (20:31):
And some of them are really thick and some of
them are really skinny, right,right? But the person really we,
you know, maybe a person haslike, two relatively equal, I
could see that's where that piecomes in, right? Whatever. But
like, you know, there could besome aerial roots that have
dropped down that are, like,have a thicker piece. And, you
know, people could mistake thatas the main trunk of the tree.
(20:55):
Okay, fine, but you're nevergoing to find somebody who's got
all the aerial roots for all thethings. Like, in design, it's
like, you know, are they a UXdesigner? Are they a UI
designer? Are they a UXstrategist? Are they a content
strategist? Like these thingsdon't realistically, they don't
exist. Or if they do exist andyou encounter them, you just
(21:16):
need to be grateful that youfound that person. And isn't
that lovely, and it's a gift.And you should not create a job
description to find more of thisparticular person because
they're so unique and sospecial. Don't call them a rock
star all the time because thatthat can cause problems. But you
know, don't go try and hunt formore of them, right? Right?
(21:38):
Like, congratulations, you foundyour unicorn, right? But they're
your unicorn. You don't, whatare the chances you're going to
find a herd of unicorns? Andit's, I was, I was at a talker.
I met somebody who used to be,he was one of their heads of
compensation at SpaceX, rightduring, it's really, you know,
(22:00):
scaling phase of things, and socompensation, trying to figure
out, like making sure thatpeople are getting the right
salaries for their roles. Andone of the things that he saw
through this experience was how,and let's just one more thing,
I'm sorry, one more importantthing is they were hiring for
people who are at the bleedingedge of B, L, E, B, L, E, E, D,
(22:24):
I, N, G. So not leading edge,bleeding edge, like, way you're
like, they're, they're in noman's land when it comes to
talent. And what he was seeingwas that people were asking for
somebody with a PhD in in somesort of tensile physics
technology. Because, I mean,we're talking about literal
rocket science here, andunderstanding that somebody
would want to have somebody whounderstands all of the things
(22:47):
that are necessary to go to Marsfrom a physics perspective, or
an engineering perspective, or,I don't even know what, all the
other stuff that they need arocket science perspective, the
rocket science you need rocketsciences. But the reality of it
is, is that, let's say, for someof these roles that they would
wanted to hire. You know, thereare only 12 people with a PhD in
(23:07):
that particular thing in theworld, and you're trying to hire
24 people. So even if you've gotall 12 people, which is not
realistic, how do you figurethis out? So like, you really
need to set your ownexpectations when you're hiring,
and, you know, not trying tofind too many unicorns, because
(23:28):
if you do find one, it was, itwas it was a blessing. It was a
blessing. You were so lucky toget one. Don't look for too many
more. Look for people who havereally had the aptitude to maybe
step up and become unicorn like,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:43):
right? Unicorn adjacent, rock star adjacent
Indra Klavins (23:48):
the occasion. They can dabble in. Rock star,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:51):
right? They're, they're good for the band,
right? They're good for the rockgroup. Love
Indra Klavins (23:58):
that you're, I hadn't thought of this earlier,
but like, I'm sitting herethinking, like there's different
kinds of bands. Different kindsof bands that are out there.
There are bands that, you know,rely on harmonies, versus the
ones that rely on that personwho's way out front. I think in
the workplace, we need to worryabout things that are harmonies,
like the Bengals from the 80s,right? The Bengals group, yeah,
what was their thing? Theyreally modeled themselves off of
(24:20):
the Beatles in some ways, and itwas really about different
people taking the lead on thesongs at different times, like
they didn't have the one frontperson who was always singing
lead vocals. They took turns.And so I think that that's
really what you want to thinkabout when you're thinking of
building out your team, or howyou talk about the members of
(24:40):
your team. It requires everyone.It requires everyone. And
sometimes one person will takethe lead, and sometimes another
person might take the lead, andsometimes it might be the same
person who takes the lead mostoften. But you need to find that
harmony. Yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (24:55):
I love that you brought up the bangles. It just
brought me back to my childhood.Yeah. And what's, what's
beautiful about the bangles isthat they all play instruments.
They all play multipleinstruments, I believe. And
you're right there. Yes, Susannawas like the lead most of the
time, but all the others sangtoo.
Indra Klavins (25:15):
They sang too. They sang too. And they knew
that, they knew that they were aensemble. Yep, you know, they
were an ensemble. They worked asa collective, and they succeeded
together. And yeah, I adore,yeah, the bangles. I'm gonna
listen some bangles after weafter we end
Amanda Jane Lee (25:33):
recording. I know now I have mannequin day.
Indra Klavins (25:37):
Oh, my God. Hero takes a fall. All right, um, but
yeah, I you know, any otherthoughts? I think we've covered
a lot of good ground on thisone. So too. Yeah, anything else
to add? Yeah? Um,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:52):
no, I think just the the lesson here is stop
hunting unicorns, and if youfind one, congratulations, you
found, but don't expect a herdof them.
Indra Klavins (26:06):
Don't expect a herd. Yes, I hope we could have
Oh, I love this. I love this.Amanda, thank you for joining me
in another thoughtfulconversation, and to all of our
listeners for joining us.Hopefully everyone heard
something that helped them feela little bit more seen or
supported or validated, and wehope that you join us next time
when we explore another topicfor the messy middle. Bye,
(26:27):
everyone bye. Thanks for takingtime with us in the messy
middle. Word of mouth remainsmost powerful way for people to
find us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
(26:48):
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey. This
work is better when we do ittogether. Until next time you.
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm good. I'm good. Todaywe're going to be talking about
a couple of words that make bothof our skins crawl. We're going
to be talking about rock starsand unicorns. To be clear,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:34):
I like unicorns. I like the idea of
unicorns. Unicorns, you know,they're pretty and sparkly, but
they're
Indra Klavins (00:42):
not real. They're not real despite Scotland having
it, I think, as their nationalanimal. But yes, they are not.
They do not exist still today inthis universe. No, no, they do
not, nor do well, rock stars doexist, but we'll talk a little
bit more about that. But let'sbefore we go in and dig into our
conversation. I did ask chat GPTto give me a couple of working
(01:03):
definitions that we can use sothat all of our listeners are
baselined in their understandingof the two terms. So a rock star
is a high performing standoutcandidate or employee who
consistently deliversexceptional results, often
exceeding expectations. The termis used to describe someone with
a strong track record, deepexpertise and the ability to
(01:25):
thrive under pressure. Acontextual note is that while
it's meant as praise, callingsomeone a rock star, it can
sometimes signal to signal focuson an individual performance
over a collaboration, orperpetuate a culture that
rewards visible wins rather thansustainable team based success.
(01:46):
It may also reflect a biastowards charisma or confidence
rather than competence orconsistency. I love me. I love I
love it when chat GPG just cannail something for me and say
the words in a really clear wayI was
Amanda Jane Lee (02:01):
gonna say chat GPT, nailed that,
Indra Klavins (02:04):
nailed it, nailed it, nailed it. And if I ever say
it on this episode, I name mychat GPD, Kathy. So we talk
about Kathy. Y'all know thatthat's, that's my nickname for
chat GPD, and how I've trainedher. Okay, so unicorns, the
definition that Kathy gave mefor unicorn is a unicorn is a
rare candidate who meets anunusually specific or ideal set
(02:26):
of criteria, often combiningtechnical excellence, strategic
thinking, cross functionalfluency and interpersonal skills
that seem to too good to betrue. The contextual note that
she gave us is hiring managersoften say that they're looking
for a unicorn when the whenwriting a job description, it
(02:47):
lists out unreal. It lists outan unrealistic combination of
skills or experience. It canindicate perfectionism in hiring
expectations, or misalignmentbetween the roles needs and
market realities. The term mayunintentionally discourage
qualified candidates fromapplying so magical thinking,
magical thinking, when it comesto you, when somebody writes out
(03:10):
that job description that'slooking unicorn hunting, unicorn
hunting,
Amanda Jane Lee (03:16):
right? And the definitions that you just read
off say a lot of things aboutideals, right? Idealistic
expectations, unrealisticexpectations. So why are
companies looking for thosethings 100%
Indra Klavins (03:33):
and I find that that's usually it can come out
of we talked about it in recentepisode, scarcity mindset, like
this feeling of like, I need aunicorn, like, there's, there's,
everyone believes that theseunicorns exist, and I it's it
doesn't Right. Or it could bebudgetary constraints, or it can
be pressure from like, theirneed to deliver or something,
(03:54):
and what they're being asked todo is unrealistic. So they look
for a candidate that's just asunrealistic. It's just like it
perpetuates and snowballs. Yeah,I think you
Amanda Jane Lee (04:04):
know both rock star and unicorn, those terms
disguise, like the company'slack of clarity, or, like, not
knowing what they want, right? Ifeel like a lot of the time the
company is just not sure whatthey want, so they're just like,
(04:24):
You know what? We're just gonnawrite all this stuff down and
hope that someone comes alongwho can read our minds and just
like, know what to do and goodat all of it.
Indra Klavins (04:35):
That's exactly it. That's exactly it. I mean,
it's, it's, yes, yeah, yeah. Solet's talk a little bit about
more about the unicorn fallacy.We'll dig into them really
specifically. So unicornfallacy, yeah, it's, it's, have
you ever found a unicorn? Orhave you, like, have you found a
(04:56):
I mean, I've got lots ofscenarios where people go
unicorn. Hunting. And like Isaid, it's usually in that job
description phase, and my job isoften to help them reset
expectations, you know, figureout exactly why they've decided
that they need somebody who candesign, code, create a marketing
(05:19):
strategy, you know, and figureout how to tease things apart so
that we can set some realistic,realistic expectations when
we're going to the market. Like,those are the scenarios for me
when it comes to the unicornhunting that I've seen happen.
Do you have any sort ofscenarios that come to mind for
you? Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:39):
not, not explicitly unicorn hunting,
right? I can't recall. Doesn'tmean I didn't experience it, but
I can't recall a company Iworked for that posted a job
description that was like, youknow, we want rock stars, we
want unicorns, right? But Iparticipated in a lot of hiring
(05:59):
panels, and I got that I wasable to experience the ins and
outs of being on those panels,and the feedback in those
conversations that happen. AndI've seen cases where everything
seemed great from a feedbackperspective, yeah, but you know,
(06:20):
there, there were comments oflike, oh, well, they were great.
And all of these things that, bythe way, we asked for, yeah,
they can't do this, this, this,this, and this, and it's just
like, Okay, well, you're nevergonna find that person like,
here are some things like, let'sbe realistic here. Here are some
things that you need to change,right? Like, one, your
expectations. Two, if you'reexpecting all of these things,
(06:42):
you can't be paying this low ofa number.
Indra Klavins (06:46):
I love the fact that you talked about, like the
job description, the personticked all the marks, right?
Like everything that was there,all the requirements, maybe even
the nice to haves, right? Youknow, the in the job
description. But then there'sall these things that can get
inserted at the at the 11thHour, often enough because that
(07:07):
person who's adding thoserequirements just experienced
some stress in a meeting thatthis person could like. They're
like, well, we need somebody whoalso knows how to do costume
design. I know that we talkedthat we need a software
engineer, but I also needsomebody who specializes in
sequence, right? Dude. I mean,that's an that's a clearly
(07:29):
fictitious example, but, yeah,it's, it can be that that knee
jerk reaction that shows up inthat, in that panel discussion,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:38):
yeah, it's, you don't necessarily have to start
off unicorn hunting, but youmight end up unicorn
Indra Klavins (07:45):
accidentally, yeah, if you don't check
yourself. And I think that it'sa really fair I mean, I noted
the one of the reasons that Ioften find that people are
hunting for their unicorns isbudget constraints. But then you
you because you can't hire thethree people that you need to
actually do the job. You put itall into one job description.
(08:07):
You offer the one salary. Andanyone who has that kind of, any
form of, that kind of super setof skills, is going to and if
they know their worth, they'renever gonna settle for that,
like 1/3
Amanda Jane Lee (08:23):
right? They're gonna realize really quick that
this is actually three separatejobs.
Indra Klavins (08:29):
Gosh, gosh, yeah, it's wild. It's wild. So okay,
so we talked a little bit aboutthe unicorns. Let's talk about
the rock stars. But like, Ithink that we're talking about
it earlier, like this, often issomething that can land. It's
not necessarily in the seekingof a new person for the team. It
really appears as the teamexists. And like, during the day
(08:53):
to day work and some of thestuff that goes there, and there
is this, when I think of rockstars in general, like are the
classic pop culture example islike, what's on their rider,
right? What's on their writer?Do they need only Green M, M's
like, what's on their right?
Amanda Jane Lee (09:11):
I saw a meme sort of recently that was to, I
wish I had pulled it up andfound it and pulled it up before
this episode, but it wassomething to the effect of,
everybody wants to hire a rockstar, but then they get mad that
they show up late and like, havea list of demands. Like, what do
you want?
Indra Klavins (09:32):
You hired an ego, and that's, you know, and
sometimes, sometimes it is. Itcan be worth having that rock
star, like, there was somebodywho I inherited on one of my
teams along the way, and, youknow, he refused to be on calls,
he refused to come into theoffice. He refused to, like,
(09:54):
there are all these differentthings, and it was because he
was hired at a time when. We, Imean, it was a very particular
skill set that we needed. But aswe built out the team and we had
more people who could do thesame job as this person, like it
became problematic. It becameproblematic and it was, it was
(10:17):
really interesting with me tohelp, like, trying to navigate
and understand how much I neededto hold on to this person who
was the rock star for all thistime, versus how I could create
a healthy balance on the teamthat I was leading. Yeah, as you
were
Amanda Jane Lee (10:32):
describing this rock star, a few rock stars I've
encountered in my career came tomind, and it they all have that
income, at least the people Ihave in mind, they all have that
they were hired at an earlierstage. They were, you know, they
had a certain set of skills, orthey had that more generalist
(10:56):
skill set, because they couldwear many hats, and it was
possible to be a higher achieverbecause the the company was
small at the time, yes, yes. Andright. And like, they've,
they've just built all of thissocial capital within the
company as well. And as thecompany grew and scaled, it's
(11:17):
like, well, you, you know, picka lane. Yeah, you don't need to
do all of it, and you don't needto act that way. No,
Indra Klavins (11:26):
no, you don't. It's, it's, and it sort of
makes, it doesn't, sort of itdoes make enough of your other
team members feel like, likeless than like, when you keep on
calling that person, oh, they'rethe rock star, they're the this,
they're the that, like a thosepeople feel, you know, like
less, like I said, less thanthey can feel a little bit icky,
(11:49):
and it can also, then, if theysee, you know, Mr. Mrs. Rock
star, getting rewarded for thismore garish behavior. It then
encourages people, especiallyearly in their career, to act
more garishly. Like, I'm sittinghere thinking around it's not
(12:11):
quite the same, but it is thesame. Like, so I worked at
WeWork. I worked there duringthe like, the peak and the
downfall, like, so it was, itwas like, it was, it was really
interesting, well documented,too, and like Adam Newman. Adam
Newman was our CEO. What apersonality like, what a
personality. And you know, inthe startup world, you do need a
(12:35):
leader who is, has magicalthinking, who is, who can rally
people, who can pull folkstogether, who can like,
galvanize folks and create amovement of sorts, right? But
what can happen is that the restof the talent then starts to act
that way. And I'm not, and I'mnot saying that I they happened
(12:58):
all over the place, or whateverI like, either we work had some
of the most talented, heartfeltindividuals. Like, I just want
to just, like, really, reallyset that straight, because
there's a lot of misconceptionsaround what it was like to work
at WeWork and who was workingthere. But from time to time,
you'd see somebody acting in aparticular way, and you're like,
Whoa, whoa, whoa, that works forAdam, not going to work here.
(13:21):
Just like, and I see how you getswept up in that, and you start
to emulate these types ofbehaviors, and you don't even
think about it's not evennecessarily in your nature. And
you start doing some of these,like, things like, Oh, if he was
successful for doing that, maybeI should try that out. That's
not that doesn't. That does. Ifyou have too many people who are
rock stars on a team, or thinkthat they're rock stars, you
(13:43):
breed a whole nother set ofproblems,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:46):
right? And I think calling people rock stars
is is a slippery slope. And Ithink in many cases, it's not
meant to be, you know, negative,right? It's meant to be like,
it's very well intentioned,right? 100% very well
intentioned. Like, you know,Indra, you're a rock star. Like,
(14:09):
you're, you're just crushing it.You're a rock star. And, you
know, when I've been called arock star, I because of, I
guess, just what I'veexperienced of other people, you
know, being called rock stars,and this behavior that happens,
and all of the things we justmentioned, when I've been called
(14:29):
a rock star, I have, like, akind of reaction now. I'm like,
Thank you, but really, like, Idon't know, like, I don't want
to, I don't, I don't need thatpressure of maintaining rock
star status, I guess is what I'mtrying to say. I
Indra Klavins (14:46):
like that. I like that. But I also like the fact
that you talked about how likethat first time that someone
calls you a rock star, it feelskind of good. It does. It does.
And
Amanda Jane Lee (14:56):
then you realize what it takes to be a
rock star and to maintain thatrock. Our status, and it's just
an unnecessary amount ofpressure, and
Indra Klavins (15:06):
it's unrealistic. You want to be a nurse person
again, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (15:10):
And then you think about how, you know, like
we mentioned, how it impacts therest of the team, and you're
like, oh, this actually isn't agood thing,
Indra Klavins (15:19):
yeah? And I think that, you know, I, what I where
I've seen it used, well, thatphrase is, you know, Amanda was
a rock star in this particularsituation. You know, for this
week, we needed her to step up.And she was a rock star in this
moment. And we're not going toexpect that for her forever, but
she knew how important this was.And high fives for Amanda for
(15:39):
stepping up in this moment.Like, you can, you know,
deputize somebody as a temporaryrock star. And I think that's a
good way to use some sort ofaccolade, you know, and whether
or not you use, like, literally,that phrase or not, you know,
there's, there's, there's othersynonyms for rock stars that are
out there, or, you know, evensometimes they, Oh, you're such
a unicorn, you can do so manythings like use it very
(16:01):
judiciously, if it does slip outor add a qualifier afterwards
and say, Hey, you're awesome.Thank you. I don't expect that
of you all the time, right? Butlike for this moment, I'm so
happy you did it, and thank you.We're all grateful for it.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:16):
Yeah, it's just going back to setting realistic
expectations,
Indra Klavins (16:20):
realistic expectations. And another thing,
like another thing, it's not theit's not a rock star, it's not a
unicorn. But another term that Ihear an awful lot, that is an,
in my opinion, is an unrealisticexpectation. Is the myth of a
full stack engineer, a fullstack designer, a full stack any
human being. I don't, I thinkit's I find this term
(16:43):
problematic. I don't know whatyou're and we're going to dig
into this. So don't worry,folks, I'm not going to just say
this line and, like, walk awayfrom it. But you know, I don't
know what your impression is ofthat terminology or experiences
with that particular turn ofphrase or label or type.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:57):
Yeah. Full Stack is an interesting one,
because I do think the idea, theconcept of a full stack
engineer, exists, but what weare defining as a full stack and
with the broader we are definingas a full stack engineer,
perhaps, is not the mostrealistic. I think it's a good
(17:17):
way to phrase it. I think thatthere is
Indra Klavins (17:21):
when somebody hears full stack engineer, their
brain automatically assumes, oh,they can do everything, and they
can do it all like a rock star,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (17:31):
They can do all of the things, and they can do
all of the things well. And thatis not realistic. No,
Indra Klavins (17:37):
no, which is where I love the terminology,
something I was introduced toyears ago when we first came
into the zeitgeist, it was eyepeople and T shaped people. So
the eye shaped person issomebody with deep like they're
a specialist, they're reallydeep in one particular field or
(17:58):
skill, or whatever it might be,like they are just really
focused on that, and don'tnecessarily have other skills.
So if we're thinking, let's justuse software engineers and
continue down that. They're a,you know, they're a database
engineer. They know databasesreally well. That's their skill
set. You should never ask themto create HTML or, you know,
(18:19):
micro services or whatever elseyou might need to do. They
really specialize in something.And then there's the idea of a T
shaped person. So T shapedperson, you can think of it like
a tree, like there's a trunk ofa tree. They're really good at
database engineering, but theyhave enough skills where they
can dabble in HTML, they candabble in micro services. They
can dabble in I always use flashtechnology as my ridiculous
(18:42):
example sometimes, but like,there's some other, there's
other technologies that theycan, they can they can function
in and they can support on an asneeded basis, or they can
pontificate on and give a littlebit of perspective on, like the
I's and the T's. Since then, awhole bunch of other letters
have showed up into thevocabulary I never understand.
What any of those are.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:03):
I know during our prep call, we went into some
of the other letters, and I'mlike, are we just making things
up? Now it's alphabet soup,right?
Indra Klavins (19:12):
People are Wait, what was our favorite one? So I
think we both had heard of m'sand W's, which, again, we'll get
it. We might touch on those alittle bit, but the ones that
stuck out for both of us werethe x's and the pi's. Like, when
did the Greek alphabet show up?
Amanda Jane Lee (19:30):
And I read the definition, and I'm like, I
still don't really get it,
Indra Klavins (19:34):
but, like, so back to the full stack engineer.
I think that full stackengineers are generally T's,
right? They are teas. And, youknow, leveraging that, that like
tea metaphor, and that treemetaphor that I was just
thinking about, like, there'syour trunk, you can be like a
banyan tree, and these aerialroots might drop down to the
ground to help support and youdraw more nutrition from the
(19:55):
ground. You might have like,Hey, I also can do HTML. I also
can do micro. Services. I canalso do XML. I can also do, you
know, whatever, whatever pieceof technology. But it's your
trunk.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:08):
Is your trunk, right? Your trunk is like the
solid, rooted this is yourdomain. This is your expertise.
I love the visual of a banyantree. The Banyan the Lahaina
banyan tree is special to bothof us. But, yeah, like, and the
aerial roots there, they exist,and they're all over the place,
but they're not as solid as thatmain trunk, no.
Indra Klavins (20:31):
And some of them are really thick and some of
them are really skinny, right,right? But the person really we,
you know, maybe a person haslike, two relatively equal, I
could see that's where that piecomes in, right? Whatever. But
like, you know, there could besome aerial roots that have
dropped down that are, like,have a thicker piece. And, you
know, people could mistake thatas the main trunk of the tree.
(20:55):
Okay, fine, but you're nevergoing to find somebody who's got
all the aerial roots for all thethings. Like, in design, it's
like, you know, are they a UXdesigner? Are they a UI
designer? Are they a UXstrategist? Are they a content
strategist? Like these thingsdon't realistically, they don't
exist. Or if they do exist andyou encounter them, you just
(21:16):
need to be grateful that youfound that person. And isn't
that lovely, and it's a gift.And you should not create a job
description to find more of thisparticular person because
they're so unique and sospecial. Don't call them a rock
star all the time because thatthat can cause problems. But you
know, don't go try and hunt formore of them, right? Right?
(21:38):
Like, congratulations, you foundyour unicorn, right? But they're
your unicorn. You don't, whatare the chances you're going to
find a herd of unicorns? Andit's, I was, I was at a talker.
I met somebody who used to be,he was one of their heads of
compensation at SpaceX, rightduring, it's really, you know,
(22:00):
scaling phase of things, and socompensation, trying to figure
out, like making sure thatpeople are getting the right
salaries for their roles. Andone of the things that he saw
through this experience was how,and let's just one more thing,
I'm sorry, one more importantthing is they were hiring for
people who are at the bleedingedge of B, L, E, B, L, E, E, D,
(22:24):
I, N, G. So not leading edge,bleeding edge, like, way you're
like, they're, they're in noman's land when it comes to
talent. And what he was seeingwas that people were asking for
somebody with a PhD in in somesort of tensile physics
technology. Because, I mean,we're talking about literal
rocket science here, andunderstanding that somebody
would want to have somebody whounderstands all of the things
(22:47):
that are necessary to go to Marsfrom a physics perspective, or
an engineering perspective, or,I don't even know what, all the
other stuff that they need arocket science perspective, the
rocket science you need rocketsciences. But the reality of it
is, is that, let's say, for someof these roles that they would
wanted to hire. You know, thereare only 12 people with a PhD in
(23:07):
that particular thing in theworld, and you're trying to hire
24 people. So even if you've gotall 12 people, which is not
realistic, how do you figurethis out? So like, you really
need to set your ownexpectations when you're hiring,
and, you know, not trying tofind too many unicorns, because
(23:28):
if you do find one, it was, itwas it was a blessing. It was a
blessing. You were so lucky toget one. Don't look for too many
more. Look for people who havereally had the aptitude to maybe
step up and become unicorn like,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:43):
right? Unicorn adjacent, rock star adjacent
Indra Klavins (23:48):
the occasion. They can dabble in. Rock star,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:51):
right? They're, they're good for the band,
right? They're good for the rockgroup. Love
Indra Klavins (23:58):
that you're, I hadn't thought of this earlier,
but like, I'm sitting herethinking, like there's different
kinds of bands. Different kindsof bands that are out there.
There are bands that, you know,rely on harmonies, versus the
ones that rely on that personwho's way out front. I think in
the workplace, we need to worryabout things that are harmonies,
like the Bengals from the 80s,right? The Bengals group, yeah,
what was their thing? Theyreally modeled themselves off of
(24:20):
the Beatles in some ways, and itwas really about different
people taking the lead on thesongs at different times, like
they didn't have the one frontperson who was always singing
lead vocals. They took turns.And so I think that that's
really what you want to thinkabout when you're thinking of
building out your team, or howyou talk about the members of
(24:40):
your team. It requires everyone.It requires everyone. And
sometimes one person will takethe lead, and sometimes another
person might take the lead, andsometimes it might be the same
person who takes the lead mostoften. But you need to find that
harmony. Yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (24:55):
I love that you brought up the bangles. It just
brought me back to my childhood.Yeah. And what's, what's
beautiful about the bangles isthat they all play instruments.
They all play multipleinstruments, I believe. And
you're right there. Yes, Susannawas like the lead most of the
time, but all the others sangtoo.
Indra Klavins (25:15):
They sang too. They sang too. And they knew
that, they knew that they were aensemble. Yep, you know, they
were an ensemble. They worked asa collective, and they succeeded
together. And yeah, I adore,yeah, the bangles. I'm gonna
listen some bangles after weafter we end
Amanda Jane Lee (25:33):
recording. I know now I have mannequin day.
Indra Klavins (25:37):
Oh, my God. Hero takes a fall. All right, um, but
yeah, I you know, any otherthoughts? I think we've covered
a lot of good ground on thisone. So too. Yeah, anything else
to add? Yeah? Um,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:52):
no, I think just the the lesson here is stop
hunting unicorns, and if youfind one, congratulations, you
found, but don't expect a herdof them.
Indra Klavins (26:06):
Don't expect a herd. Yes, I hope we could have
Oh, I love this. I love this.Amanda, thank you for joining me
in another thoughtfulconversation, and to all of our
listeners for joining us.Hopefully everyone heard
something that helped them feela little bit more seen or
supported or validated, and wehope that you join us next time
when we explore another topicfor the messy middle. Bye,
(26:27):
everyone bye. Thanks for takingtime with us in the messy
middle. Word of mouth remainsmost powerful way for people to
find us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
(26:48):
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey. This
work is better when we do ittogether. Until next time you.
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The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.