July 30, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into a frustrating contradiction many professionals have experienced: the same companies that go out of their way to hire the brightest minds often turn around and disempower them the moment they arrive. From micromanagement to fear-based leadership, they examine the organizational dynamics that hinder strong talent and the downstream consequences for innovation, retention, and culture.
With real-life stories and a healthy dose of kiki, they unpack why some leaders can’t “let go,” what it looks like when trust is missing, and how insecurity at the top often trickles down into broken systems. You’ll hear practical strategies for both managers and employees, whether you’re trying to create space for others to shine or just trying to breathe under someone else's heavy hand.
If you’ve ever been hired for your strategic mind but treated like a task rabbit, this one’s for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? Doing? Well. I'm doingwell. Our topic for today is
hiring smart people, and some ofthe consequences that happen
when you do hire smart people.And when I think about hiring
(00:31):
smart people, I think of myfirst day at work at a digital
agency. Many, many, many moonsago, there were about seven of
us in orientation sitting in oneof the conference rooms, getting
a walk through by HR andeverybody else. And in came our
regional president to greet usand say hello. And the way that,
(00:52):
one of the ways that he greetedus was to let us know, like,
Hey, you got hired here becauseyou're the smartest people in
the room, in the places thatyou've come from in the past,
but here we only hire thesmartest people who come from
their respective rooms. So getready to be humbled. I was like,
okay, that hit. I mean, it wasgood at expectation setting, but
(01:13):
it hit. It hit hard. But thenfast forward, you know, a number
of years later, there was thethere was a housing market
collapse, right? And soeverything was going sideways.
You know, all differentorganizations are getting hit by
the economy and all the thingsthat were happening at that
moment in time, and in all ofour town halls, they would way
that they would message to uswas as if we weren't smart
(01:36):
people who couldn't figure outwhat was going on. It was so
frustrating, all you want to dois scream like you hired us
because we're smart and we knowwe, we, you, you, you, you
don't. You're not saying whatyou think you're saying by
saying those words,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:53):
right? You're saying all these words. And we
all understand that this is justsmoke and mirrors, smoke
Indra Klavins (02:00):
and mirrors all day long, all day long. And,
yeah, it was an interesting itwas an interesting moment in
time. But I think that so manytimes and in so many
organizations, you know, peopledo go through those interview
processes to hire the toptalent, but then don't always
know how to support that talentonce they're hired.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:21):
Yeah, when you said the interview processes, I
just thought of every interviewprocess I've ever experienced.
It's just like multiple rounds,like the puzzles, the brain
teasers that tell me aboutyourselves, the assessing for
critical thinking andadaptability and initiative and
(02:42):
all of these things, all ofthese check boxes
Indra Klavins (02:46):
and performing dog going through all this,
right?
Amanda Jane Lee (02:49):
And then you get hired, and you, you know,
you show you, show that you usethose skills that you were
interviewed and presumably hiredfor. And they're like, no, no.
Stay in your
Indra Klavins (03:02):
box. Stay in your box, stay in your box. And
you're, you're just like, whydid you hire me? You wanted
somebody who could do this,this, this, this and this, but
you're not, you're not givingthose tasks to me, right? You
know? And there are reasons whythis can happen, and we'll go
through some of those. I mean, Ithink that I was actually in a I
(03:23):
was in a talk, or listening to atalk recently, and they were
talking about how, you know,when people get elevated to a
new level, especially like in apeople leadership role, but it
could go even higher than that.What can happen is that person
is so used to doing, you know,these five tasks to get the
reward and recognition thatthey're used to getting. Then
(03:44):
they get elevated. Let's say ata director level. They still
keep doing those five times atthat director level, not
recognizing the fact thatdirectors get rewarded on
completely different things.They need to stop doing that.
They don't delegate that stuffto their team and let them do
the work that they used to doand get rewarded for
Amanda Jane Lee (04:04):
Yeah, I think we, I think we talked about this
during our, one of our episodes.I want to say it was like, the
you want to be a managerepisode, probably, yeah, like,
what, what got you here isn'twhat's going to keep you going,
Indra Klavins (04:21):
No, and you need to learn how to delegate, which
is, you know, and there's lotsof reasons that, you know,
managers don't delegate. Thatwas just one example of why
somebody doesn't, a peopleleader, or a leader in the
organization doesn't delegatetheir responsibilities. It could
be the, you know, the fear thatthe team won't do it as well as
they could, or it could be the,you know, they're, they're,
(04:42):
they're, they're afraid thattheir team could do it better
than they
Amanda Jane Lee (04:47):
right, like, there's that insecurity piece,
yeah, 100%
Indra Klavins (04:51):
and you know, it's, it's not overly useful.
It's not overly useful. Like,for this particular one,
whenever I'm. Faced with tryingto look at myself and see
whether or not I should be doingsomething. I think of a story.
There was a wonderful CEO whileI was there at TD, AmeriTrade.
(05:13):
His name is Tim hockey, and wewere in a leadership forum. Was
a Q and A session, and somebodywas asking for some particular
advice. I don't remember whatthe question was, but I do
remember his response. He said,You know, when you step into a
leadership role, or as you moveup in your career, it's
important that you do the thingsthat you're uniquely qualified
(05:34):
to do and let everyone else dothe rest. And I was like,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:38):
Yeah, I mean, we've, we've talked about, you
know, the the contradiction of,you know, going making people go
through this process to to gethired, and you're hiring these
smart people, and then when theystart on the job, you don't
allow them to be smart, right?Or you're, you're surprised that
(05:59):
they're smart.
Indra Klavins (06:00):
You're surprised. Like, what? Like, Wait, how do
you know that? Like, because youhired me, because I know that
Amanda Jane Lee (06:05):
right? And I think a lot of it comes back to
just flexing those, thoseleadership muscles, right,
learning how to to lead, asopposed to to
Indra Klavins (06:16):
do, yeah, yeah. And what people don't realize
that there are consequences whenyou don't, when you don't let
the person that you hired do thething that they were hired to
do. You're you're in you're in apickle. You're in a real big
pickle, I mean, and sometimesyou hire the person because you
(06:37):
need, you need, you knew youneeded the skills for this
particular project, and thatparticular initiative, or
whatever it might be, is notcoming through. You're still
waiting for approvals, and youneed to bide your time. We're
not talking about that scenariothat's in that scenario, you let
the person know, hey, this iswhy we hired you. This is what's
going on right now. We can't letyou use your skills explain the
(06:58):
whole thing to them, and in themeantime, can you do X, Y and Z,
like that, that you handle thatthat way, but when, when you
don't, when you have theability, or you're in a
position, to let people thrive,and something in yourself is not
letting you do that, right?You're what you're going to do
is that one part like, well,let's just assume it's one
(07:18):
person, right? That one personis going to get so frustrated,
and that frustration at best,that person will leave and just
go to find another job, right?Which means that you've burned
all that time and energy findinga person, and you're at square
one, again, fulfilling yourneed. But that's your best case
scenario, if you can believethat your worst case scenario,
(07:42):
or more realistic scenario, isthat person is there, and they
start talking to others, andtheir frustration starts to
spread, and there's a contagionacross your organization.
Amanda Jane Lee (07:52):
Yeah, contagion is such a good word for you,
right? And it really, it reallydoes come down to leadership
style and leadership abilities,right? Because, yeah, sure, you
can vent your frustrations toyour peers, but if they're
seeing the same things too, ifthey're experiencing the same
(08:13):
things too, which they probablyare, right, there something
about that conver that littleventing conversation, trigger
something in them to be like,Oh, you're, you know, you're
right. Validation. This isterrible. Like, every time I
raise my hand in a meeting with,you know, what I think is a good
idea, because, you know, theyhired me because I, you know, I
(08:36):
asked questions. I'm innovative,like, I have fresh perspective.
Insert all of the things here,all the things, but when I raise
my hand to suggest a new idea,I'm shut down every single time,
and it's like, why did they hireme if they're not going to
listen to me,
Indra Klavins (08:51):
right? Or you rate, or in another scenario, be
I raise my hand to take onsomething that's a stretch goal,
and you keep on shutting medown, and you keep on delegating
to the same person if you don'tmanage that expectation and
handle that and give a give aclear reason for why you're not
doing that clear, satisfyingreason for why you're not doing
(09:13):
that. It's really, it just, itjust spreads. It just spreads.
It just spreads. It justspreads.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:20):
Yeah, and I think it just it spreads, so
that part spreads, and I thinkthe the innovation and the the
momentum stagnates.
Indra Klavins (09:33):
Yes, you're not giving space for people to
breathe and play and get curiousaround the things that they're
doing, or try things out. Youknow, sometimes this comes
across in like, maybe you willdelegate it, but then you start
micromanaging all the delegationthat doesn't work. Either,
that's not delegation, that'snot delegation.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:55):
Yeah, I've seen that, and that really doesn't
work. That is actually worsethe. And trying, but then, like,
not delegating at all
Indra Klavins (10:03):
a really, it really is, I mean, I and I've
done things where, you know, Igive somebody a stretch goal
and, you know, we're against adeadline, or against a lot of
things. Like, I'm thinking ofone particular person in
particular scenario, but I'vedone it many times. Like she
said to me, she's like, I wantto try to do this thing. I'm
like, Great, fantastic. I'mlike, you know that we have a
deadline of tomorrow when youknow that we need to nail this.
(10:24):
So what I'm going to do is, Idon't want you to feel all the
pressure of this, because it's ahigh stakes situation, but I'm
going to let you run. Let'slike, let's give you a shot. I'm
also going to do the work and doit as well, so that we have two
potential solutions foraddressing it on the day of I'm
not trying to undermine you. Itell them ahead of time so they
don't feel like, oh my god, shedidn't trust me. Like, no, I'm
(10:47):
trusting you, but I'm alsogiving you a safety net,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:50):
right? I was gonna say it's a safety net,
which is nice, but you know, youhave to be clear up front,
because otherwise, otherwise,you know the stories that people
tell themselves, right? It'sjust like, oh, Indra didn't
trust me, like she just went offand did it on her own. Because
what, she didn't trust me to doit myself.
Indra Klavins (11:08):
It feels terrible. Or if I had come in
and like, Seagull managementsoup swoop and poop, if I'd
swooped and pooped on her at theend, be like, Hey, your solution
doesn't work. So I'm going tocome in and I'm going to be the
hero, and I'm going to stay upand pull an all nighter to pull
like that also feels terrible,even if I didn't say it in a
snarky way, like, even if I,like, even if I did it a nice
(11:28):
way. And like, Hey, this is foryou to try out. Let's stretch
you. Let's grow you. You aresmart. You are intelligent.
Let's figure out how to do this.And then, like, when, if they
were to come short, coming like,and then like, oh, I have to do,
they'll feel bad that theydidn't meet the meet the
expectations. You find the wayto let people stretch in
different scenarios, or, ifthey're an expert in the thing,
(11:51):
let them run, find the check insalong the way to make sure that
they have the organizationalcontext, or the project context,
or whatever it is, to make surethat they actually succeed at
it, not just with theirtechnical skills, but they're
with the but they're with thecontextual organizational
skills. You'll find a way. Youfind a way, and when your team
wins, like that's the thing withsome leaders don't understand.
(12:11):
Like good leaders, when there'sa success, they let their team
shine. When there's a failure,they take the demerit for
themselves, right? But when yourteam shines, you actually shine.
You need to stand in thebackground, but it actually
speaks to how good of a leaderyou are. So let go of the thing.
(12:31):
Have a little faith in yourorganization. Be there to
support them and let them takethe credit, and you're actually
going to look really great inthe end,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:40):
right? Success is the team's doing, and
failure, or, you know, less thansuccess. I'm not going to call
everything a failure, yeah,right. But less than success is
on you. Yeah. As a leader, youtake a ball 100%
Indra Klavins (12:55):
but like you were talking about, like, it does
also stifle ideas. It doesstifle innovation, and
innovation isn't always like thenew the next iPhone. Innovation
can be like small, these littlemicro move, micro moments that
make everything just a littlebit better. You know, you talked
a little bit about that, butlike when you stifle, when you
stifle your team, you kind oflock them in amber, so to speak.
(13:18):
You're like you get they getlocked in time, and they
stagnate, and they get stuck,and it just becomes mechanical.
You know,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:28):
you lock them in a state of what came to mind
was compliance,
Indra Klavins (13:33):
ooh, like, and not the good kind of compliance
that keeps you out of jail,right? We're talking about like,
just very Yes sir. No, sir, I'mnot going to think, thank you,
sir. I may, I may. I'm anautomaton who just does what
they're told. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:46):
right, because you're every time I question
what I've been told to do, I wastold to just, just do it. Just
do it my way.
Indra Klavins (13:55):
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, you know, we
talked, we've spent a fair bitof time talking about supporting
the teams that are there, butthat newcomer, when they're
coming in, when you hire thatreally, really smart person, and
you want them to do really smartthings before they start, or
before you even post the job,you need to think through how
you're going to how you're goingto support them. Because the
(14:17):
thing is, that smart talent isthey can be the most satisfying
people to lead, but they're hardto lead. It takes a lot of work.
They will challenge you in suchgood ways, but they will
challenge you and you need tobefore you even start
recruiting. Really analyze. Areyou ready to to support them?
(14:39):
Are you ready to let go ofthings. Are you ready for the
the fact that they willchallenge you like they're they
will they will ask youquestions. They will be
inquisitive, they will beprecocious. They will do all
those things. Think about yourstrategies of how you're going
to support them, how you'regoing to give them the space,
how you're going to let them,how you're going to unlock. Mock
(15:01):
all of their smartness. Yeah, I
Amanda Jane Lee (15:03):
love that you use the word precocious. It
just, it's just such a goodword. But yeah, I think you're
right the hiring manager or themanager of said people, really
you need to take a look atyourself, like, do some deep
(15:24):
reflection and ask yourself,like, are you emotionally ready?
Are you emotionally ready to bechallenged to have somebody like
me ask you, like, a millionquestions about, why is it this
way? Why are we doing that? Notin a like, Oh, why are we doing
that? But like, but why are wedoing that? Yes. And do you have
(15:46):
the answers? Do you are youprepared to have the answers and
or are you just going to getfrustrated and be like, it's
just the way it is. Like, justdo what, what I tell you to do,
right? Like, because that that'snot how you support the talent
that you think you want to hire,right? Or
Indra Klavins (16:02):
are you prepared to say, I don't know. Let's
figure it out together, right?You don't need to have every
answer, but you need to be ableto you need to be ready to
engage. You need to be ready toengage. You need to be ready to
be creative in the way that yousupport this person. You need to
be ready to sometimes tell them,hey, I love the fact that you
(16:23):
challenge me. This is not themoment to do that, right? You
need to know and and hone yourskills in being a good leader if
you want to have a team full ofreally exceptional talent. Now
I'm not saying I it is, in myopinion, this terrible
organizational design to have ateam exclusively of top talent.
You know that you need to have agood mix for a wide variety of
(16:46):
reasons. That's a whole notherepisode, but so I don't want
anyone take any sort ofassumptions away from around for
that. But if you did have a teamfull of really smart people, you
need to be ready for that. Andyou need to, you need to go to
the your proverbial leadershipgym and get ready. Get ready to
exercise your letting go. Muscleexercise your communication,
(17:07):
muscle exercise your patience.Muscle all the muscles right,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:12):
right? And if you've thought about all of
this, and you realize, you know,I think I want the most
exceptional talent, I think Iwant the smart people. I think I
want the most, the best and thebrightest and the most
innovative, and this that andthe other thing, but you take a
step back and you think aboutwhat, what the job really
entails, and what you arewilling to support, and you're
(17:36):
like, actually, I need a smartperson, but I don't need like,
the the best, the mostexceptional. I actually, right
now, at this point in time forthis job, I would be very happy
with someone who, you know,someone less senior, someone who
(17:56):
is just able to come in andlike, do the things that we've
asked them to do and, like,that's their job, and that's
okay,
Indra Klavins (18:04):
and that's good leadership, and that's good
business, because the worldtakes all kinds, and not
everyone wants to be the toptalent, you know, like some
people just like that. Andthat's that's perfectly fine.
I'd say the other thing that,looping back to my story that I
started this episode with, theother thing is, when there are,
when you've hired any smartpeople in your organization, any
(18:26):
of them, they don't need to allbe smart, but any smart person
in your organization, when timesget tough and you need to
deliver tough messages, you haveto remember that they are going
To see through your veneer ofwhat you're saying, right? You
need to figure out. You need toemploy lots of different skills.
(18:48):
You need to be skillful in themessage you deliver in large
forums. You need to, in myopinion, leave breadcrumbs so
that people who know canunderstand what you're saying
and why you're saying it in whatthe ways that you're saying it,
you need to, and there's youneed to be really skillful on
which levers you pull, where,why and how. But like, you need
(19:11):
to maybe have side conversationswith people that can help
support that message that doesnot make sense. Like, I have a
blog post out there from many,many moons ago, like, little off
topic. On topic is why such andsuch person left the company,
why didn't anyone tell me,right? And it outlines why
that's not the case. Like thelong and the short of it is
(19:33):
employment law. Sometimesemployers have to comply to the
law, and they cannot tell youeverything, and there are things
that they're trying to mitigateit against. And the employment
law is actually to protect theperson who's no longer with the
organization. They're nottreating you like you're stupid.
They're not thinking that youyou know, they're not being
disrespectful to the person wholeft in their legacy. They're
(19:54):
not doing a lot of these things.And this, this holds true,
whether that was a I'm going touse corporate speak, volunteer.
Or an involuntary exit. In bothscenarios, they won't, they're
not going to make a big dealabout it, at least not
officially, because there arecertain rules and regulations
that are in place to protectthese but that does mean that
you need to whisper in enoughpeople's ears like, hey,
(20:16):
remember like when somebody sayssomething to you, remind them
about employment law or whateveryou're talking about like, you
need to plant those seeds in theright places with your right
communicators to help spread thespread the secondary message in
the right way, and they need todo it skillfully. Yeah, when you
said,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:35):
you know, employers have to, have to
remember when times are tough,right? Immediately, what came to
mind was layoffs. I I've seenmany layoffs in my career, been
on both sides of layoffs, right?I've been the one laid off. I've
been the one to survive thelayoff. And there were
(20:56):
communications that were good,solid, clear, and there were
communications that were like,do they all think we're dumb?
Indra Klavins (21:05):
Do they all think we're dumb? And even your most
junior person might think thatyour mid level people might
think that your person who'shappy coming in and just doing
their job, might think that youknow their top talent, might
think that like everyone, mightthink that like you need to find
the ways to, if you know, sendthe, if you know you know,
(21:27):
messages to make sure thateveryone or or get your get your
alliances together becausepeople are smart and you hire
them because they're smart andtalented.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:37):
Yeah, and right. And if you are not good
at that kind of messaging. Like,if you if you flub, it the
impact, it's bad, the aftereffect of that is bad
Indra Klavins (21:51):
and it lasts. It's not immediate. It lasts
like it lasts for it lasts foryears. I'm not talking about
weeks. I'm not talking aboutyears. People will remember
that. Oh, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:05):
people lose confidence, right? People lose
confidence when, again, when youhire smart people and you treat
them like they're not smart, orat least you you you make it
seem like you treat them likethey're not smart, right? Yeah,
Indra Klavins (22:21):
and give them outlets. Just give them outlets.
Give them create the rightforums to find the right things,
you know. So we've talked abouttop talent, we've talked about
more generally speaking, butjust assume that everyone in
your workplace is smart. Assumethat they will know that there's
a charade going on. When you'rehave a charade going on, at
least one person will know, andthat word will spread, and
(22:43):
figure out how to how tomitigate that. So, yeah, figure
out how to support the peoplethat you've hired. Yeah, I mean,
and again, another scenario likeI was trying to think like,
because I'm trying to think likeother scenarios where this
happens, like another one. Andagain, this is a whole entire
episode unto itself is when wetalk about promotion cycles
(23:05):
like, you know, like the realityof it is that promotion cycles
super complicated. And thereality is that there are
usually caps, not that, not thatanyone will ever use that
terminology. No one will eversay that out loud, and this is
Indra speaking in Indralanguage, right? There are
usually caps, and that's usuallyhaving to do with budgets.
(23:27):
That's usually having to do withthe number of people they can
have at certain levels withoutthe organization being upside
down, you know, being too topheavy. What I mean by upside
down in this context, you know,and making sure that enough
people understand that andgetting ahead of those things,
like, I get ahead of, I try andget ahead of performance cycle,
managing expectations, sixmonths in advance, six months in
(23:52):
advance. Like, let's startmanaging that step, and let's
start talking about hypotheticalscenarios, about hypothetical
organizations, or arming youknow your people who you can
trust to have thoseconversations with the right
language, with the rightcontext,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:07):
yeah, and, you know, you just hit something
setting expectations right setthose expectations. And, you
know, I think going back to thebeginning where we talk about
interviewing for for theseroles. Set those expectations.
Set those expectations withthose candidates, those
(24:30):
employees, set thoseexpectations with yourself.
Indra Klavins (24:34):
I think that's, I think that's a beautiful button
for this. I mean, like it isabout setting expectations,
resetting expectations.Resetting expectations,
reminding people of theresetting of the resetting of
the expectations. It's importantwe're just human beings. We're
just human beings. And as one ofmy teachers once said, these
brains that we have, they'reterrible computers. Their
(24:55):
memories are not so good. Theway that things. It's not the
it's a computer has. Been defragsince the 80s, right? They're
faulty. They're faulty. Weremember what we remember. We
forget what we forget, and wemisremember. So Reset, reset,
reset, expectations for sure. Ilove it. Amanda yet another
(25:16):
amazing, rich conversation. Ihope that all of our listeners
got something out of it today,whether it was validation or an
insight or anything, and I hopethat everyone joins us next time
when we explore another topicfor the messy middle bye,
everyone
Amanda Jane Lee (25:31):
thanks bye.
Indra Klavins (25:35):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(25:55):
feedback form at the messymiddlematters.com or in the show
notes. Thank you for joining uson this journey, this work is
better when we do it together,until next time you.
I'm Indra
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? Doing? Well. I'm doingwell. Our topic for today is
hiring smart people, and some ofthe consequences that happen
when you do hire smart people.And when I think about hiring
(00:31):
smart people, I think of myfirst day at work at a digital
agency. Many, many, many moonsago, there were about seven of
us in orientation sitting in oneof the conference rooms, getting
a walk through by HR andeverybody else. And in came our
regional president to greet usand say hello. And the way that,
(00:52):
one of the ways that he greetedus was to let us know, like,
Hey, you got hired here becauseyou're the smartest people in
the room, in the places thatyou've come from in the past,
but here we only hire thesmartest people who come from
their respective rooms. So getready to be humbled. I was like,
okay, that hit. I mean, it wasgood at expectation setting, but
(01:13):
it hit. It hit hard. But thenfast forward, you know, a number
of years later, there was thethere was a housing market
collapse, right? And soeverything was going sideways.
You know, all differentorganizations are getting hit by
the economy and all the thingsthat were happening at that
moment in time, and in all ofour town halls, they would way
that they would message to uswas as if we weren't smart
(01:36):
people who couldn't figure outwhat was going on. It was so
frustrating, all you want to dois scream like you hired us
because we're smart and we knowwe, we, you, you, you, you
don't. You're not saying whatyou think you're saying by
saying those words,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:53):
right? You're saying all these words. And we
all understand that this is justsmoke and mirrors, smoke
Indra Klavins (02:00):
and mirrors all day long, all day long. And,
yeah, it was an interesting itwas an interesting moment in
time. But I think that so manytimes and in so many
organizations, you know, peopledo go through those interview
processes to hire the toptalent, but then don't always
know how to support that talentonce they're hired.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:21):
Yeah, when you said the interview processes, I
just thought of every interviewprocess I've ever experienced.
It's just like multiple rounds,like the puzzles, the brain
teasers that tell me aboutyourselves, the assessing for
critical thinking andadaptability and initiative and
(02:42):
all of these things, all ofthese check boxes
Indra Klavins (02:46):
and performing dog going through all this,
right?
Amanda Jane Lee (02:49):
And then you get hired, and you, you know,
you show you, show that you usethose skills that you were
interviewed and presumably hiredfor. And they're like, no, no.
Stay in your
Indra Klavins (03:02):
box. Stay in your box, stay in your box. And
you're, you're just like, whydid you hire me? You wanted
somebody who could do this,this, this, this and this, but
you're not, you're not givingthose tasks to me, right? You
know? And there are reasons whythis can happen, and we'll go
through some of those. I mean, Ithink that I was actually in a I
(03:23):
was in a talk, or listening to atalk recently, and they were
talking about how, you know,when people get elevated to a
new level, especially like in apeople leadership role, but it
could go even higher than that.What can happen is that person
is so used to doing, you know,these five tasks to get the
reward and recognition thatthey're used to getting. Then
(03:44):
they get elevated. Let's say ata director level. They still
keep doing those five times atthat director level, not
recognizing the fact thatdirectors get rewarded on
completely different things.They need to stop doing that.
They don't delegate that stuffto their team and let them do
the work that they used to doand get rewarded for
Amanda Jane Lee (04:04):
Yeah, I think we, I think we talked about this
during our, one of our episodes.I want to say it was like, the
you want to be a managerepisode, probably, yeah, like,
what, what got you here isn'twhat's going to keep you going,
Indra Klavins (04:21):
No, and you need to learn how to delegate, which
is, you know, and there's lotsof reasons that, you know,
managers don't delegate. Thatwas just one example of why
somebody doesn't, a peopleleader, or a leader in the
organization doesn't delegatetheir responsibilities. It could
be the, you know, the fear thatthe team won't do it as well as
they could, or it could be the,you know, they're, they're,
(04:42):
they're, they're afraid thattheir team could do it better
than they
Amanda Jane Lee (04:47):
right, like, there's that insecurity piece,
yeah, 100%
Indra Klavins (04:51):
and you know, it's, it's not overly useful.
It's not overly useful. Like,for this particular one,
whenever I'm. Faced with tryingto look at myself and see
whether or not I should be doingsomething. I think of a story.
There was a wonderful CEO whileI was there at TD, AmeriTrade.
(05:13):
His name is Tim hockey, and wewere in a leadership forum. Was
a Q and A session, and somebodywas asking for some particular
advice. I don't remember whatthe question was, but I do
remember his response. He said,You know, when you step into a
leadership role, or as you moveup in your career, it's
important that you do the thingsthat you're uniquely qualified
(05:34):
to do and let everyone else dothe rest. And I was like,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:38):
Yeah, I mean, we've, we've talked about, you
know, the the contradiction of,you know, going making people go
through this process to to gethired, and you're hiring these
smart people, and then when theystart on the job, you don't
allow them to be smart, right?Or you're, you're surprised that
(05:59):
they're smart.
Indra Klavins (06:00):
You're surprised. Like, what? Like, Wait, how do
you know that? Like, because youhired me, because I know that
Amanda Jane Lee (06:05):
right? And I think a lot of it comes back to
just flexing those, thoseleadership muscles, right,
learning how to to lead, asopposed to to
Indra Klavins (06:16):
do, yeah, yeah. And what people don't realize
that there are consequences whenyou don't, when you don't let
the person that you hired do thething that they were hired to
do. You're you're in you're in apickle. You're in a real big
pickle, I mean, and sometimesyou hire the person because you
(06:37):
need, you need, you knew youneeded the skills for this
particular project, and thatparticular initiative, or
whatever it might be, is notcoming through. You're still
waiting for approvals, and youneed to bide your time. We're
not talking about that scenariothat's in that scenario, you let
the person know, hey, this iswhy we hired you. This is what's
going on right now. We can't letyou use your skills explain the
(06:58):
whole thing to them, and in themeantime, can you do X, Y and Z,
like that, that you handle thatthat way, but when, when you
don't, when you have theability, or you're in a
position, to let people thrive,and something in yourself is not
letting you do that, right?You're what you're going to do
is that one part like, well,let's just assume it's one
(07:18):
person, right? That one personis going to get so frustrated,
and that frustration at best,that person will leave and just
go to find another job, right?Which means that you've burned
all that time and energy findinga person, and you're at square
one, again, fulfilling yourneed. But that's your best case
scenario, if you can believethat your worst case scenario,
(07:42):
or more realistic scenario, isthat person is there, and they
start talking to others, andtheir frustration starts to
spread, and there's a contagionacross your organization.
Amanda Jane Lee (07:52):
Yeah, contagion is such a good word for you,
right? And it really, it reallydoes come down to leadership
style and leadership abilities,right? Because, yeah, sure, you
can vent your frustrations toyour peers, but if they're
seeing the same things too, ifthey're experiencing the same
(08:13):
things too, which they probablyare, right, there something
about that conver that littleventing conversation, trigger
something in them to be like,Oh, you're, you know, you're
right. Validation. This isterrible. Like, every time I
raise my hand in a meeting with,you know, what I think is a good
idea, because, you know, theyhired me because I, you know, I
(08:36):
asked questions. I'm innovative,like, I have fresh perspective.
Insert all of the things here,all the things, but when I raise
my hand to suggest a new idea,I'm shut down every single time,
and it's like, why did they hireme if they're not going to
listen to me,
Indra Klavins (08:51):
right? Or you rate, or in another scenario, be
I raise my hand to take onsomething that's a stretch goal,
and you keep on shutting medown, and you keep on delegating
to the same person if you don'tmanage that expectation and
handle that and give a give aclear reason for why you're not
doing that clear, satisfyingreason for why you're not doing
(09:13):
that. It's really, it just, itjust spreads. It just spreads.
It just spreads. It justspreads.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:20):
Yeah, and I think it just it spreads, so
that part spreads, and I thinkthe the innovation and the the
momentum stagnates.
Indra Klavins (09:33):
Yes, you're not giving space for people to
breathe and play and get curiousaround the things that they're
doing, or try things out. Youknow, sometimes this comes
across in like, maybe you willdelegate it, but then you start
micromanaging all the delegationthat doesn't work. Either,
that's not delegation, that'snot delegation.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:55):
Yeah, I've seen that, and that really doesn't
work. That is actually worsethe. And trying, but then, like,
not delegating at all
Indra Klavins (10:03):
a really, it really is, I mean, I and I've
done things where, you know, Igive somebody a stretch goal
and, you know, we're against adeadline, or against a lot of
things. Like, I'm thinking ofone particular person in
particular scenario, but I'vedone it many times. Like she
said to me, she's like, I wantto try to do this thing. I'm
like, Great, fantastic. I'mlike, you know that we have a
deadline of tomorrow when youknow that we need to nail this.
(10:24):
So what I'm going to do is, Idon't want you to feel all the
pressure of this, because it's ahigh stakes situation, but I'm
going to let you run. Let'slike, let's give you a shot. I'm
also going to do the work and doit as well, so that we have two
potential solutions foraddressing it on the day of I'm
not trying to undermine you. Itell them ahead of time so they
don't feel like, oh my god, shedidn't trust me. Like, no, I'm
(10:47):
trusting you, but I'm alsogiving you a safety net,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:50):
right? I was gonna say it's a safety net,
which is nice, but you know, youhave to be clear up front,
because otherwise, otherwise,you know the stories that people
tell themselves, right? It'sjust like, oh, Indra didn't
trust me, like she just went offand did it on her own. Because
what, she didn't trust me to doit myself.
Indra Klavins (11:08):
It feels terrible. Or if I had come in
and like, Seagull managementsoup swoop and poop, if I'd
swooped and pooped on her at theend, be like, Hey, your solution
doesn't work. So I'm going tocome in and I'm going to be the
hero, and I'm going to stay upand pull an all nighter to pull
like that also feels terrible,even if I didn't say it in a
snarky way, like, even if I,like, even if I did it a nice
(11:28):
way. And like, Hey, this is foryou to try out. Let's stretch
you. Let's grow you. You aresmart. You are intelligent.
Let's figure out how to do this.And then, like, when, if they
were to come short, coming like,and then like, oh, I have to do,
they'll feel bad that theydidn't meet the meet the
expectations. You find the wayto let people stretch in
different scenarios, or, ifthey're an expert in the thing,
(11:51):
let them run, find the check insalong the way to make sure that
they have the organizationalcontext, or the project context,
or whatever it is, to make surethat they actually succeed at
it, not just with theirtechnical skills, but they're
with the but they're with thecontextual organizational
skills. You'll find a way. Youfind a way, and when your team
wins, like that's the thing withsome leaders don't understand.
(12:11):
Like good leaders, when there'sa success, they let their team
shine. When there's a failure,they take the demerit for
themselves, right? But when yourteam shines, you actually shine.
You need to stand in thebackground, but it actually
speaks to how good of a leaderyou are. So let go of the thing.
(12:31):
Have a little faith in yourorganization. Be there to
support them and let them takethe credit, and you're actually
going to look really great inthe end,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:40):
right? Success is the team's doing, and
failure, or, you know, less thansuccess. I'm not going to call
everything a failure, yeah,right. But less than success is
on you. Yeah. As a leader, youtake a ball 100%
Indra Klavins (12:55):
but like you were talking about, like, it does
also stifle ideas. It doesstifle innovation, and
innovation isn't always like thenew the next iPhone. Innovation
can be like small, these littlemicro move, micro moments that
make everything just a littlebit better. You know, you talked
a little bit about that, butlike when you stifle, when you
stifle your team, you kind oflock them in amber, so to speak.
(13:18):
You're like you get they getlocked in time, and they
stagnate, and they get stuck,and it just becomes mechanical.
You know,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:28):
you lock them in a state of what came to mind
was compliance,
Indra Klavins (13:33):
ooh, like, and not the good kind of compliance
that keeps you out of jail,right? We're talking about like,
just very Yes sir. No, sir, I'mnot going to think, thank you,
sir. I may, I may. I'm anautomaton who just does what
they're told. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:46):
right, because you're every time I question
what I've been told to do, I wastold to just, just do it. Just
do it my way.
Indra Klavins (13:55):
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, you know, we
talked, we've spent a fair bitof time talking about supporting
the teams that are there, butthat newcomer, when they're
coming in, when you hire thatreally, really smart person, and
you want them to do really smartthings before they start, or
before you even post the job,you need to think through how
you're going to how you're goingto support them. Because the
(14:17):
thing is, that smart talent isthey can be the most satisfying
people to lead, but they're hardto lead. It takes a lot of work.
They will challenge you in suchgood ways, but they will
challenge you and you need tobefore you even start
recruiting. Really analyze. Areyou ready to to support them?
(14:39):
Are you ready to let go ofthings. Are you ready for the
the fact that they willchallenge you like they're they
will they will ask youquestions. They will be
inquisitive, they will beprecocious. They will do all
those things. Think about yourstrategies of how you're going
to support them, how you'regoing to give them the space,
how you're going to let them,how you're going to unlock. Mock
(15:01):
all of their smartness. Yeah, I
Amanda Jane Lee (15:03):
love that you use the word precocious. It
just, it's just such a goodword. But yeah, I think you're
right the hiring manager or themanager of said people, really
you need to take a look atyourself, like, do some deep
(15:24):
reflection and ask yourself,like, are you emotionally ready?
Are you emotionally ready to bechallenged to have somebody like
me ask you, like, a millionquestions about, why is it this
way? Why are we doing that? Notin a like, Oh, why are we doing
that? But like, but why are wedoing that? Yes. And do you have
(15:46):
the answers? Do you are youprepared to have the answers and
or are you just going to getfrustrated and be like, it's
just the way it is. Like, justdo what, what I tell you to do,
right? Like, because that that'snot how you support the talent
that you think you want to hire,right? Or
Indra Klavins (16:02):
are you prepared to say, I don't know. Let's
figure it out together, right?You don't need to have every
answer, but you need to be ableto you need to be ready to
engage. You need to be ready toengage. You need to be ready to
be creative in the way that yousupport this person. You need to
be ready to sometimes tell them,hey, I love the fact that you
(16:23):
challenge me. This is not themoment to do that, right? You
need to know and and hone yourskills in being a good leader if
you want to have a team full ofreally exceptional talent. Now
I'm not saying I it is, in myopinion, this terrible
organizational design to have ateam exclusively of top talent.
You know that you need to have agood mix for a wide variety of
(16:46):
reasons. That's a whole notherepisode, but so I don't want
anyone take any sort ofassumptions away from around for
that. But if you did have a teamfull of really smart people, you
need to be ready for that. Andyou need to, you need to go to
the your proverbial leadershipgym and get ready. Get ready to
exercise your letting go. Muscleexercise your communication,
(17:07):
muscle exercise your patience.Muscle all the muscles right,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:12):
right? And if you've thought about all of
this, and you realize, you know,I think I want the most
exceptional talent, I think Iwant the smart people. I think I
want the most, the best and thebrightest and the most
innovative, and this that andthe other thing, but you take a
step back and you think aboutwhat, what the job really
entails, and what you arewilling to support, and you're
(17:36):
like, actually, I need a smartperson, but I don't need like,
the the best, the mostexceptional. I actually, right
now, at this point in time forthis job, I would be very happy
with someone who, you know,someone less senior, someone who
(17:56):
is just able to come in andlike, do the things that we've
asked them to do and, like,that's their job, and that's
okay,
Indra Klavins (18:04):
and that's good leadership, and that's good
business, because the worldtakes all kinds, and not
everyone wants to be the toptalent, you know, like some
people just like that. Andthat's that's perfectly fine.
I'd say the other thing that,looping back to my story that I
started this episode with, theother thing is, when there are,
when you've hired any smartpeople in your organization, any
(18:26):
of them, they don't need to allbe smart, but any smart person
in your organization, when timesget tough and you need to
deliver tough messages, you haveto remember that they are going
To see through your veneer ofwhat you're saying, right? You
need to figure out. You need toemploy lots of different skills.
(18:48):
You need to be skillful in themessage you deliver in large
forums. You need to, in myopinion, leave breadcrumbs so
that people who know canunderstand what you're saying
and why you're saying it in whatthe ways that you're saying it,
you need to, and there's youneed to be really skillful on
which levers you pull, where,why and how. But like, you need
(19:11):
to maybe have side conversationswith people that can help
support that message that doesnot make sense. Like, I have a
blog post out there from many,many moons ago, like, little off
topic. On topic is why such andsuch person left the company,
why didn't anyone tell me,right? And it outlines why
that's not the case. Like thelong and the short of it is
(19:33):
employment law. Sometimesemployers have to comply to the
law, and they cannot tell youeverything, and there are things
that they're trying to mitigateit against. And the employment
law is actually to protect theperson who's no longer with the
organization. They're nottreating you like you're stupid.
They're not thinking that youyou know, they're not being
disrespectful to the person wholeft in their legacy. They're
(19:54):
not doing a lot of these things.And this, this holds true,
whether that was a I'm going touse corporate speak, volunteer.
Or an involuntary exit. In bothscenarios, they won't, they're
not going to make a big dealabout it, at least not
officially, because there arecertain rules and regulations
that are in place to protectthese but that does mean that
you need to whisper in enoughpeople's ears like, hey,
(20:16):
remember like when somebody sayssomething to you, remind them
about employment law or whateveryou're talking about like, you
need to plant those seeds in theright places with your right
communicators to help spread thespread the secondary message in
the right way, and they need todo it skillfully. Yeah, when you
said,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:35):
you know, employers have to, have to
remember when times are tough,right? Immediately, what came to
mind was layoffs. I I've seenmany layoffs in my career, been
on both sides of layoffs, right?I've been the one laid off. I've
been the one to survive thelayoff. And there were
(20:56):
communications that were good,solid, clear, and there were
communications that were like,do they all think we're dumb?
Indra Klavins (21:05):
Do they all think we're dumb? And even your most
junior person might think thatyour mid level people might
think that your person who'shappy coming in and just doing
their job, might think that youknow their top talent, might
think that like everyone, mightthink that like you need to find
the ways to, if you know, sendthe, if you know you know,
(21:27):
messages to make sure thateveryone or or get your get your
alliances together becausepeople are smart and you hire
them because they're smart andtalented.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:37):
Yeah, and right. And if you are not good
at that kind of messaging. Like,if you if you flub, it the
impact, it's bad, the aftereffect of that is bad
Indra Klavins (21:51):
and it lasts. It's not immediate. It lasts
like it lasts for it lasts foryears. I'm not talking about
weeks. I'm not talking aboutyears. People will remember
that. Oh, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:05):
people lose confidence, right? People lose
confidence when, again, when youhire smart people and you treat
them like they're not smart, orat least you you you make it
seem like you treat them likethey're not smart, right? Yeah,
Indra Klavins (22:21):
and give them outlets. Just give them outlets.
Give them create the rightforums to find the right things,
you know. So we've talked abouttop talent, we've talked about
more generally speaking, butjust assume that everyone in
your workplace is smart. Assumethat they will know that there's
a charade going on. When you'rehave a charade going on, at
least one person will know, andthat word will spread, and
(22:43):
figure out how to how tomitigate that. So, yeah, figure
out how to support the peoplethat you've hired. Yeah, I mean,
and again, another scenario likeI was trying to think like,
because I'm trying to think likeother scenarios where this
happens, like another one. Andagain, this is a whole entire
episode unto itself is when wetalk about promotion cycles
(23:05):
like, you know, like the realityof it is that promotion cycles
super complicated. And thereality is that there are
usually caps, not that, not thatanyone will ever use that
terminology. No one will eversay that out loud, and this is
Indra speaking in Indralanguage, right? There are
usually caps, and that's usuallyhaving to do with budgets.
(23:27):
That's usually having to do withthe number of people they can
have at certain levels withoutthe organization being upside
down, you know, being too topheavy. What I mean by upside
down in this context, you know,and making sure that enough
people understand that andgetting ahead of those things,
like, I get ahead of, I try andget ahead of performance cycle,
managing expectations, sixmonths in advance, six months in
(23:52):
advance. Like, let's startmanaging that step, and let's
start talking about hypotheticalscenarios, about hypothetical
organizations, or arming youknow your people who you can
trust to have thoseconversations with the right
language, with the rightcontext,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:07):
yeah, and, you know, you just hit something
setting expectations right setthose expectations. And, you
know, I think going back to thebeginning where we talk about
interviewing for for theseroles. Set those expectations.
Set those expectations withthose candidates, those
(24:30):
employees, set thoseexpectations with yourself.
Indra Klavins (24:34):
I think that's, I think that's a beautiful button
for this. I mean, like it isabout setting expectations,
resetting expectations.Resetting expectations,
reminding people of theresetting of the resetting of
the expectations. It's importantwe're just human beings. We're
just human beings. And as one ofmy teachers once said, these
brains that we have, they'reterrible computers. Their
(24:55):
memories are not so good. Theway that things. It's not the
it's a computer has. Been defragsince the 80s, right? They're
faulty. They're faulty. Weremember what we remember. We
forget what we forget, and wemisremember. So Reset, reset,
reset, expectations for sure. Ilove it. Amanda yet another
(25:16):
amazing, rich conversation. Ihope that all of our listeners
got something out of it today,whether it was validation or an
insight or anything, and I hopethat everyone joins us next time
when we explore another topicfor the messy middle bye,
everyone
Amanda Jane Lee (25:31):
thanks bye.
Indra Klavins (25:35):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(25:55):
feedback form at the messymiddlematters.com or in the show
notes. Thank you for joining uson this journey, this work is
better when we do it together,until next time you.
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