August 6, 2025 • 25 mins
What do you do when a talented team member has outgrown what your organization can offer? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the rarely discussed topic of supporting team members who are ready to move on, not because they've failed, but because they’ve grown. From recognizing career ceilings to embracing talent mobility, they explore how letting go can be an act of leadership, not loss. You’ll hear practical strategies for navigating these moments with honesty, generosity, and long-term vision, turning exits into alumni relationships and potential into legacy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:18):
How are you Indra? I'm good,
Indra Klavins (00:20):
I'm good. I'm excited for today's topic,
because it's something thatusually only gets discussed, if
it gets discussed at all. Itonly gets discussed in hushed
voices behind closed doors. It'sreally, what do you do when you
when, when somebody's outgrownthe team or the organization and
they have nowhere left to go.You love them, but you don't
(00:43):
have anywhere. You have nowherethat you can you know where
further you can take
Amanda Jane Lee (00:48):
them, right? You have nothing left to give
them at this moment in time.Yeah,
Indra Klavins (00:53):
yeah. I mean, I think I've, I feel like I've
been on both sides of that indifferent parts of my career. I
don't know i Your any thoughtsthat you have around this topic?
Yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:05):
I mean, I've left jobs voluntarily for
reasons, right? But you know thereasons why I've left jobs, at
least part of the reason was thecompany could not give me what I
wanted, yeah, right, whetherthat, whether that was like
radically changing the cultureof the organization,
Indra Klavins (01:27):
sure,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:30):
right, a promotion, or more money, or
insert all of the reasons here,right? There are so many reasons
people want to look elsewhere.
Indra Klavins (01:40):
Yeah. And hopefully, you know, by the end
of this episode, the people whoare listening, whether you're a
people leader or you're a personwho's working with an
organization that you feel likeyou've outgrown, you might have
a different perspective on howthis can be both a strategic
advantage for you as theemployer, letting people move
on, or You know, for yourself, astrategic advantage for going on
(02:03):
to a new opportunity somewhereelse?
Amanda Jane Lee (02:05):
Yeah, and I think you know, we there. I
mentioned, you know, thechanging organizational culture
and all of that, right? Like thevibes of the organization.
Usually that means bad vibes allaround, like the there are ways
to mitigate that, but that's notwhat we're talking about here. I
(02:26):
think we're, we're being moreintentional and talking about
the, you know, we can't givethis person a promotion or or
the raise that they want, or thelearning opportunities, or the
leadership opportunities, or,you know, just the more positive
things that they're looking forthat the organization, for
whatever reason, can't, can'tprovide.
Indra Klavins (02:50):
Yeah, I mean, I where I've seen, or the a
pattern where this is moreprevalent is where there's,
like, a really healthy culture,there's a lovely organization.
And let's say there's a cohortof three people that joined
around the same time at the samelevel, and they start moving up.
(03:11):
And, you know, we talk aboutleadership, things usually often
in the shape of pyramids. Andthere's a reason we talk about
those pyramids, because it'sthere are budgetary reasons for
pyramids, right, where you'rethinking about, like you can
only hire and bring so manypeople to these different
levels. Or it's maybe the budgetmight be even just like capacity
(03:32):
of people to support or theremight be stock options. And
there's lots of differentfactors to it, but there's some
of that. There's also, you know,let's talk about, there's
sometimes there's only so manypeople to be led in an
organization, right? So let'ssay you had, you know, people
who were, well, we'll just pickany one level. But like moving
(03:54):
from moving up to the peoplemanager level, let's say you had
three people who started at theorganization same time, all
really talented, all relativelyequally qualified. It's all
relative, right, but you reallyand but the people that are more
junior than them, there's onlylike two How can you promote
(04:15):
three people into a manager rolewhen there's no one to manage?
You know, there are some veryreal practicalities to this. And
it's not for lack of wanting toprovide opportunities, it's
there. Are just bound there.There are limitations, or
actual, literal limitations,even if you do have the budgets,
even if you do have a lot
Amanda Jane Lee (04:36):
of different things, yeah, and you know, I've
seen this happen where, youknow, someone asked for what
they wanted, yeah, and theorganization said, you know, for
whatever reasons you write,usually budgetary or usually
budget, usually budgetary said,Hey, can't do that for you.
(04:59):
Yeah. And so. So that persongoes off and interviews, looks
elsewhere, like, you know, findsother opportunities, and they'll
they'll receive an offer fromanother company who can give
them what they want, whetherthat's title, whether that's
more money, whether that's morelearning opportunities, whatever
it is. And I've sometimes seenthe company be like, Oh, well,
(05:23):
we can't, we can't let you go.We can't lose you. So let's work
something out.
Indra Klavins (05:31):
It's, you know, I'm just like, giggling on the
inside. Like, not in a, in a ina conspiratorial way, not in a
like, that's funny or like,that's silly, because that is
such a very real scenario.There's one company that I work
for where the only way thatpeople could get elevated was to
get an offer from somewhere elsefor that higher title. Like, it
(05:52):
was just, it was wacky, like,what a what a way to run your
organization. But it also getsinto things like, and this is a
much bigger topic. We won't gotoo deeply into it, but I
mentioned it, and at least theone episode that we've had in
the past. I was, I had thepleasure of seeing a
compensation specialist, Aarontweet. He was, he had worked. He
(06:16):
was teaching us aboutcompensation philosophies and
compensation models and when tohave them. And like, this
particular scenario that youactually, literally talked about
came up, somebody asked aquestion, like, Hey, I've got a
compensation philosophy.Compensation philosophy for
everyone who's listening. And Iit was a new term to me, so I'll
do my best to define it.Compensation philosophy is like,
(06:38):
what do you do in all thesevarious scenarios? Like how, how
willing are you to stretch theboundaries between and when are
you willing to stretch theboundaries between the rules
that you have in in, let's say,Pay bands, or whatever it might
be. So you figure all that in anideal world, in a in a let's
call it ideal, but I think thatit should be the norm. But an
ideal world, you have that alldefined ahead of time, so you
(07:01):
know how you're going torespond,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:03):
right? Like, this is your playbook. These are
the rules that you've defined,right? And as the situation
comes up, you can go to yourplaybook and be like, Oh, okay,
this is what the scenario is.What should we do is, you know,
it's like the flow chartmentality, right? Like,
Indra Klavins (07:19):
flow chart mentality, if this, then that,
because, like, if you do thisfor one person, and there's
these three people, let's, let'sstick with the three that we
had. One person did this thingand got themselves elevated. The
other two can do the same darnthing. What do you do? Then,
right, right. You start. You atsome point in time, you are
going to hit a boundary, andit's better to think through all
(07:42):
these scenarios when thepressure isn't done, when the
scenario isn't in your face andyou get emotional, because we're
human beings. Guess what? Wehave emotions. No matter how
much we try and pretend thatwe're stoic. We actually have
them, whether we acknowledge itor not, you know. And they do
cloud our judgment, like havingthat be clear, because sometimes
the best thing that you can dofor the greater good of your
(08:02):
organization, not for youfeeling great, not for anything,
is to let that person leave theorganization. Let them leave in
good with a good relationship.And term that I heard learned
years ago is you don't wantsomebody to be an ex employee or
a former employee, you want themto be an alumni or a graduate of
(08:25):
your organization, right? Youwant that. And when using that
terminology, it's all abouthaving looking back at another
company as their alma mater andsomething that they're proud of.
And so when they encounter otherpeople, they're like, Oh, that's
great. And you know, even thepeople who are, quote, left
behind feel really happy forthat person. They got a great
opportunity. Isn't that awesome?They landed a job at Google. Oh
(08:47):
my gosh, that's so cool, youknow,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:50):
right? They built, you know, they built up
all these skills and had allthese opportunities at this
company, and just took it as faras they could go, and they got
this amazing opportunity wherethey could use everything that
they learned, and it was justtime to move on. No hard
feelings like they're notleaving because things are bad.
They're just leaving because,you know, they're just ready for
(09:13):
that next step somewhere else.And they remember that time
fondly, and they talk abouttheir time at Google, or what,
whatever company
Indra Klavins (09:21):
it is, right, right? Exactly, exactly, I mean.
And that's that's because if youdon't do that, like, let's take
budget out of the equation.Like, you get so darn top heavy.
And how many, like we talkedabout, like, people management.
Not everyone who moves up a foodchain or up the ladder manages
people, but when you have allthese thought leaders at the
(09:42):
top, there's no one left to dothe work,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:46):
right, right? Yeah, I think letting letting
your best talent leave is okay,and it should be encouraged. And
like it's, I think it's a miss,a mission, a. A risk mitigation
strategy. It is a
Indra Klavins (10:02):
risk mitigation strategy for the long term
success of your team so much ofleadership is, is not just
looking at this particularmoment in at the altitude you're
usually at, looking at it fromthe 10,000 foot view, and then
looking at it three months fromnow, six months from now, one
year from now, and understandingthe consequences of it, because
(10:23):
when you make these decisionsthat are out of line with your
with the norm, the ripple effectthat you hold on to them for a
really, really long time.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:35):
Yeah, I think we've talked about this during
our prep call, but it's verysimilar to, you know, setting
your your trade triggers foryour stock portfolio, right?
Like you want to, you want tohave that figured out ahead of
time, so that you're notimpacted by the heat of the
moment, the emotional like, justthe emotions of what's going on
(10:59):
currently in the market, to makedecisions 100%
Indra Klavins (11:02):
and so my friend Enrique, big supporter, He'll be
so happy that we're talkingabout trade triggers. Let me
explain what a trade trigger is,everyone. So when you are, when
you are working in the stockmarket, and you're using a
platform to invest and buy anytype of equity, equity can be a
stock, it can be lots ofdifferent things, but you're
trying to invest in something,right? One of the best practices
(11:26):
is to set trade triggers. Solet's say, you know, I'm trying
to buy Apple, I'm going tochoose numbers that are not
real, but like, I want to buyApple. Apple today is at $100
I'm buying it at $100 and I wantto make sure that I've decided
that, you know, when Applereaches like $125 that's when I
want to sell right? Maybe Appleis not the best example, because
(11:48):
it's pretty reliable, but y'alllike, when it reaches a certain
threshold, I sell it right, andthen, and then move on. Or if it
drops to, let's say, $75 I sellit and I set these automations
in place, and then when thesethings hit these thresholds,
that trade executes, right? Andyou can there's, I don't want to
go to the whole thing, butthat's what we're talking about.
(12:09):
Like trade triggers. The tradeis triggered by a certain set of
conditions, and therecommendation is to figure out
your trade triggers when themarket hours are not there, so
that you're not faced with allthose emotions of like,
watching, like, things bounce upand down, oh my gosh. Apple went
up $1 down $1 up $1 down $1 likelook at it,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:24):
right? It's at 125 but maybe it'll get to 126
127 Should I just hang on to it?And if you, if you get caught up
in those emotional decisions,it's like you said, you know, in
relation to letting your besttalent go. It's your you're
going to hold on to thosedecisions. You're going to be
(12:46):
thinking about that decisionthat you made emotionally for a
while,
Indra Klavins (12:50):
for a while, and, you know, but also, you know,
extending the trade triggerpiece, like, you can set
secondary triggers where you reevaluate the situation in any
sort of direction. So like, ifApple it sells automatically at
125 I can always have somethingset up if it ratchets up to 126
let's buy it again, and let'ssee what happens. Like you can I
(13:11):
mean, I'm not recommendinganyone takes this strategy. This
is, these are hypotheticalscenarios. I am so I have an
investment advisor because I donot know how to do this myself.
So all hypotheticals, notfinancial advice, but when we're
talking about people like, maybeyou know you have this plan
where you set these decisions,and you set this framework, and
you set whatever you want to do,and market conditions change. A
(13:33):
great example of marketconditions changing was the year
2021, the hiring recruitinglandscape was cuckoo for Cocoa
Puffs. Salaries skyrocketed.Everything was out of whack, and
everyone needed to make certain,certain decisions, right? And
you need to figure out, like,how am I handling things I can
(13:55):
revisit, like, this is myphilosophy, but if I ever want
to hire anyone, I need to makesome exceptions at this moment
in time. But then also, whatpeople need to think about was
like, when do I stop makingexceptions? That's your other
quote. Trade trigger, like, whenyou're making the exceptions.
Like, when do I try and changemy philosophy? So,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:16):
right? Figure out what your exceptions are,
right? Figure out what yourexceptions
Indra Klavins (14:19):
are. And so like, you know, bringing it back down
to, like, a, you know, moresimplistic level, like, take a
look. I would like on duringthose during those quiet times,
what is your org design? Howmany people do you have at
different levels? What are theexceptions you're willing to
make? What are the conditionsthat you want to make? Those
exceptions? Like, if I hadsomebody who was the chief
(14:43):
technical architect or ourcreative director or visionary
or strategist, or whatever,like, who are the what are the
types of talent that you'rewilling to make the exceptions,
or sometimes, like the literalperson, because, you know,
you're at a startup, and theywere the third hire, and they.
Happen to know an awful lot, orthey were the third hire, and
(15:03):
they're vital to your culture,and you're pretty confident that
that, like, you could have anexodus if that person leaves,
like, figure things out, bothlike, generically and
specifically, and then whenpeople do let go, like, do
choose to leave, don't feel likeit's an insult to yourself, I
think that that's part of ittoo,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:24):
right? There's not that. There's that emotional
piece, right? They take itpersonally, right? Yeah, and I
think it's just a really goodcall out that it's, yes, it is
personal, but it's also businessand, right, it's both. And
(15:44):
sometimes the best businessdecision is to just let that
person leave. Let
Indra Klavins (15:49):
them leave. I mean, this is this could
dovetail into, like, when youneed to exit someone, but let's
talk about the positives today,but you just need to let them
leave. It's for the greater.It's for the their betterment,
like, if you held on to thatperson, but you couldn't give
them the opportunities otherlike, or you would get them into
a situation where everyone'sresenting them because they got
(16:09):
like, that's not great,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:11):
right? It's not great. And I've seen, I've
witnessed those scenarios where,you know, they that person who
was irreplaceable, right? Got anoffer, and and the company
counter offered, and theystayed. And you know, the
stories people tell themselvesabout what happened there, and
(16:32):
it's just, it just sets a badprecedent.
Indra Klavins (16:36):
It sets a bad precedent. There's one time in
my career where I accepted acounter didn't work out,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:41):
oh yeah, it didn't work out. Precedent for
everybody, and it's just like,No, I I think it would have been
better for everyone, the personwho's trying to leave the
company. It's just better foreveryone if we just let that
person leave. Let them grow,
Indra Klavins (16:58):
let them grow. And when they grow, they create
space for someone new to enterin your organization, and that
brings new life and newperspective. Like, I love we
work with constantly hiringpeople. And while I was there,
were Blitzscaling, that's awhole nother conversation, but
with each new hire, they wouldall there every single week,
(17:18):
somebody would point out thesame things that we should be
doing. But like, you get thosefresh eyes, you get those fresh
eyes, you're like, oh, okay,yeah, we should do that. Yeah,
you know. And it's in you. Or wecan take a different
perspective, or they'll bring insomething from a different
industry. It doesn't stagnateyour organization. Like, if you
really hold on to everyone tootightly, it's like that
metaphor, like, if you let most,gosh, I'll back to my
microphone. If you, if you lovesomething, let it go. Or, how do
(17:41):
you keep a bird? Don't hold ittoo tightly, right? Like
there's, there's differentthings to it. So yeah, for sure.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:47):
And you know, you, you maintain that positive
relationship, I think is, is theone of the biggest benefits,
they don't resent you, right?They don't resent you, your car,
the employees who are left inthe organization don't resent
you or that person, like ifsomeone truly wants to leave
(18:09):
because you cannot give themwhat they are asking for. Okay,
let them be a proud alum, notalumni, alumnus,
Indra Klavins (18:19):
alumnus, yeah, and it's, and I think that it's
also part, don't forget to alsohave the right conversations
with people who are, quote, leftbehind, right? Because, like,
you know, I
Amanda Jane Lee (18:33):
said left behind, but I didn't mean it,
like, oh, left behind. There'sno, no. I didn't
Indra Klavins (18:37):
think you did, and I can't find a better phrase
for it, right? Like the peoplewho continue to remain right, so
like it, because they couldfeel, they will feel, they could
feel left behind by that person,right. They could feel like you
didn't fight hard enough forthem. You know, they could feel
a lot of different things. Ifyou need to have those
conversations with those folks,and really, yeah, have that
(19:01):
conversation with folks. Itcould be in like, risk
mitigation, in having themfollow that person. It could be,
you know, like you've got a lotof different things you need you
can't it's not just a one personthing. It's your entire team
that you need to address whenthese things happen. And be
clear and as transparent as youcan on your your philosophies
around talent and compensationand all of that stuff, and just
(19:23):
remind them and reinforce thosethings and say, Hey, we're
really happy when people findnew opportunities. Are we happy
that they left? No, but are wehappy that they found something
that really makes them happy?Yes, of course we are. Why
wouldn't we be fans of that?Yeah, I
Amanda Jane Lee (19:37):
think you said something really important.
There the reminders of thecompensation philosophy, right?
It's not just a, oh, I wrote itdown in a doc, and I shared it
in the all company Slackchannel, and here you go. I
think it's a constant reminderof this is our compensation
philosophy, especially,especially relevant around
(19:58):
review, cycle time and rate.Days and promotion time, right?
And just reminding everyone thatthis exists and be these are the
rules, right? The limitations,the boundaries. This is like,
how we think about compensationhere, and like, setting those
expectations up front,
Indra Klavins (20:17):
or reminding people what they are in the
economic downturns, like, let'sbe real about that stuff. Or
reminding people when you knowagain, 2021 wacky here in the
job market, remind like, havingthose reinforcing conversations,
having the like, or having thewe hear you conversations, or
having like, there's, there's somany, and not just having the
(20:39):
conversation, actually engagingin active listening in those
conversations and taking in,taking in those takeaways from
those team members, andcontinuing to close those loops
and follow ups in whichever wayyou need to. So, yeah, yeah. I
mean, we've
Amanda Jane Lee (20:56):
said risk mitigation a few times. Yeah,
something that I just thought ofwas, you know, this is going to
happen. It is your your besttalent is going to want to
leave. Fact, at some point it'sgoing to happen somebody,
somebody you thought like wasirreplaceable. You cannot
(21:16):
function as a company withoutthem. They are going to leave.
They're going to want to leave.So also think about how you're
going to fill that gap. I can'tthink of a better
Indra Klavins (21:27):
term resiliency. I think it's resiliency. How do
you build the resiliency intoyour organization?
Amanda Jane Lee (21:33):
Yes, right, right. How do you build that
resiliency? How do you build thestructure and the systems to to
lessen the load, to mitigatethat risk. To, you know, once
that person leaves, all of theirinstitutional knowledge doesn't
immediately disappear, andthat's
Indra Klavins (21:52):
some actually something that, I mean, it's
it's not easy to always do that,especially when an organization
is moving rapidly or isexperiencing a lot of pressures,
but having that kind of crosspollination, having the
succession planningconversations around things,
even at like, like, you won'tnecessarily have to document it
(22:15):
with your HR or people, people,professionals, but you know, You
You should always have that inthe back of your mind, like, oh,
what happens? Like, because,because the reality is that life
is lifey, and you never know.What could cause an exit, right?
You never know. And in thiscase, we're, we're talking
about, like, somebody got agreat opportunity. Always have
(22:38):
that. Always have that. And itcreates, it creates such rich
conversations, which I kind oflove. So, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:44):
yeah, for sure. Any other thoughts, no, I think
we, we covered, we covered a lotof ground
Indra Klavins (22:53):
here. Covered a lot of ground. I mean, another
thing is, it's think of it as agraduation.
Amanda Jane Lee (22:59):
I know I when you said that, I love it. I love
I love thinking about it as agraduation of this school that
you're really proud to haveattended, and you learn so much,
and you got to meet so manyamazing people,
Indra Klavins (23:13):
yeah, and then you'll be in touch with them.
You'll see them at a classreunion, a happy hour, or
whatever you know, like and youknow, and have have embraced
that embrace talent mobility,whether it's they're leaving an
organization to, you know,outside of the company, or going
to a sister team or whatever. Imean, see that as a strength.
You get to grow and develop themost exceptional talent that
(23:37):
then others are so grateful tohave on their team. Now, isn't
that delightful?
Amanda Jane Lee (23:42):
Yeah, and, you know, we talked about it in our
manager episode, right? But,like, that's, that's something
that you should consider whenyou, when you're considering
taking the leap to becoming apeople manager, right? Like,
are, is that the thing thatbrings you joy being able to
grow and mentor, and
Indra Klavins (24:02):
you know, let your little birds fly, get your
get your nest empty, get yournest empty, and then refill it
with new birdlings Anyway.Amanda, thank you again for
joining me for our conversationthat was so rich. Hopefully our
listeners got something good outof it, and I hope that, and
thank you to our listeners forlistening. I We hope that you
(24:24):
join us next time when we coveranother topic from the messy
middle
Unknown (24:27):
Bye, bye.
Indra Klavins (24:31):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(24:52):
feedback form at the messymiddlematters.com or in the show
notes. Thank you for joining uson this journey. This work is
better when we do it together.Together until next time bye.
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:18):
How are you Indra? I'm good,
Indra Klavins (00:20):
I'm good. I'm excited for today's topic,
because it's something thatusually only gets discussed, if
it gets discussed at all. Itonly gets discussed in hushed
voices behind closed doors. It'sreally, what do you do when you
when, when somebody's outgrownthe team or the organization and
they have nowhere left to go.You love them, but you don't
(00:43):
have anywhere. You have nowherethat you can you know where
further you can take
Amanda Jane Lee (00:48):
them, right? You have nothing left to give
them at this moment in time.Yeah,
Indra Klavins (00:53):
yeah. I mean, I think I've, I feel like I've
been on both sides of that indifferent parts of my career. I
don't know i Your any thoughtsthat you have around this topic?
Yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:05):
I mean, I've left jobs voluntarily for
reasons, right? But you know thereasons why I've left jobs, at
least part of the reason was thecompany could not give me what I
wanted, yeah, right, whetherthat, whether that was like
radically changing the cultureof the organization,
Indra Klavins (01:27):
sure,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:30):
right, a promotion, or more money, or
insert all of the reasons here,right? There are so many reasons
people want to look elsewhere.
Indra Klavins (01:40):
Yeah. And hopefully, you know, by the end
of this episode, the people whoare listening, whether you're a
people leader or you're a personwho's working with an
organization that you feel likeyou've outgrown, you might have
a different perspective on howthis can be both a strategic
advantage for you as theemployer, letting people move
on, or You know, for yourself, astrategic advantage for going on
(02:03):
to a new opportunity somewhereelse?
Amanda Jane Lee (02:05):
Yeah, and I think you know, we there. I
mentioned, you know, thechanging organizational culture
and all of that, right? Like thevibes of the organization.
Usually that means bad vibes allaround, like the there are ways
to mitigate that, but that's notwhat we're talking about here. I
(02:26):
think we're, we're being moreintentional and talking about
the, you know, we can't givethis person a promotion or or
the raise that they want, or thelearning opportunities, or the
leadership opportunities, or,you know, just the more positive
things that they're looking forthat the organization, for
whatever reason, can't, can'tprovide.
Indra Klavins (02:50):
Yeah, I mean, I where I've seen, or the a
pattern where this is moreprevalent is where there's,
like, a really healthy culture,there's a lovely organization.
And let's say there's a cohortof three people that joined
around the same time at the samelevel, and they start moving up.
(03:11):
And, you know, we talk aboutleadership, things usually often
in the shape of pyramids. Andthere's a reason we talk about
those pyramids, because it'sthere are budgetary reasons for
pyramids, right, where you'rethinking about, like you can
only hire and bring so manypeople to these different
levels. Or it's maybe the budgetmight be even just like capacity
(03:32):
of people to support or theremight be stock options. And
there's lots of differentfactors to it, but there's some
of that. There's also, you know,let's talk about, there's
sometimes there's only so manypeople to be led in an
organization, right? So let'ssay you had, you know, people
who were, well, we'll just pickany one level. But like moving
(03:54):
from moving up to the peoplemanager level, let's say you had
three people who started at theorganization same time, all
really talented, all relativelyequally qualified. It's all
relative, right, but you reallyand but the people that are more
junior than them, there's onlylike two How can you promote
(04:15):
three people into a manager rolewhen there's no one to manage?
You know, there are some veryreal practicalities to this. And
it's not for lack of wanting toprovide opportunities, it's
there. Are just bound there.There are limitations, or
actual, literal limitations,even if you do have the budgets,
even if you do have a lot
Amanda Jane Lee (04:36):
of different things, yeah, and you know, I've
seen this happen where, youknow, someone asked for what
they wanted, yeah, and theorganization said, you know, for
whatever reasons you write,usually budgetary or usually
budget, usually budgetary said,Hey, can't do that for you.
(04:59):
Yeah. And so. So that persongoes off and interviews, looks
elsewhere, like, you know, findsother opportunities, and they'll
they'll receive an offer fromanother company who can give
them what they want, whetherthat's title, whether that's
more money, whether that's morelearning opportunities, whatever
it is. And I've sometimes seenthe company be like, Oh, well,
(05:23):
we can't, we can't let you go.We can't lose you. So let's work
something out.
Indra Klavins (05:31):
It's, you know, I'm just like, giggling on the
inside. Like, not in a, in a ina conspiratorial way, not in a
like, that's funny or like,that's silly, because that is
such a very real scenario.There's one company that I work
for where the only way thatpeople could get elevated was to
get an offer from somewhere elsefor that higher title. Like, it
(05:52):
was just, it was wacky, like,what a what a way to run your
organization. But it also getsinto things like, and this is a
much bigger topic. We won't gotoo deeply into it, but I
mentioned it, and at least theone episode that we've had in
the past. I was, I had thepleasure of seeing a
compensation specialist, Aarontweet. He was, he had worked. He
(06:16):
was teaching us aboutcompensation philosophies and
compensation models and when tohave them. And like, this
particular scenario that youactually, literally talked about
came up, somebody asked aquestion, like, Hey, I've got a
compensation philosophy.Compensation philosophy for
everyone who's listening. And Iit was a new term to me, so I'll
do my best to define it.Compensation philosophy is like,
(06:38):
what do you do in all thesevarious scenarios? Like how, how
willing are you to stretch theboundaries between and when are
you willing to stretch theboundaries between the rules
that you have in in, let's say,Pay bands, or whatever it might
be. So you figure all that in anideal world, in a in a let's
call it ideal, but I think thatit should be the norm. But an
ideal world, you have that alldefined ahead of time, so you
(07:01):
know how you're going torespond,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:03):
right? Like, this is your playbook. These are
the rules that you've defined,right? And as the situation
comes up, you can go to yourplaybook and be like, Oh, okay,
this is what the scenario is.What should we do is, you know,
it's like the flow chartmentality, right? Like,
Indra Klavins (07:19):
flow chart mentality, if this, then that,
because, like, if you do thisfor one person, and there's
these three people, let's, let'sstick with the three that we
had. One person did this thingand got themselves elevated. The
other two can do the same darnthing. What do you do? Then,
right, right. You start. You atsome point in time, you are
going to hit a boundary, andit's better to think through all
(07:42):
these scenarios when thepressure isn't done, when the
scenario isn't in your face andyou get emotional, because we're
human beings. Guess what? Wehave emotions. No matter how
much we try and pretend thatwe're stoic. We actually have
them, whether we acknowledge itor not, you know. And they do
cloud our judgment, like havingthat be clear, because sometimes
the best thing that you can dofor the greater good of your
(08:02):
organization, not for youfeeling great, not for anything,
is to let that person leave theorganization. Let them leave in
good with a good relationship.And term that I heard learned
years ago is you don't wantsomebody to be an ex employee or
a former employee, you want themto be an alumni or a graduate of
(08:25):
your organization, right? Youwant that. And when using that
terminology, it's all abouthaving looking back at another
company as their alma mater andsomething that they're proud of.
And so when they encounter otherpeople, they're like, Oh, that's
great. And you know, even thepeople who are, quote, left
behind feel really happy forthat person. They got a great
opportunity. Isn't that awesome?They landed a job at Google. Oh
(08:47):
my gosh, that's so cool, youknow,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:50):
right? They built, you know, they built up
all these skills and had allthese opportunities at this
company, and just took it as faras they could go, and they got
this amazing opportunity wherethey could use everything that
they learned, and it was justtime to move on. No hard
feelings like they're notleaving because things are bad.
They're just leaving because,you know, they're just ready for
(09:13):
that next step somewhere else.And they remember that time
fondly, and they talk abouttheir time at Google, or what,
whatever company
Indra Klavins (09:21):
it is, right, right? Exactly, exactly, I mean.
And that's that's because if youdon't do that, like, let's take
budget out of the equation.Like, you get so darn top heavy.
And how many, like we talkedabout, like, people management.
Not everyone who moves up a foodchain or up the ladder manages
people, but when you have allthese thought leaders at the
(09:42):
top, there's no one left to dothe work,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:46):
right, right? Yeah, I think letting letting
your best talent leave is okay,and it should be encouraged. And
like it's, I think it's a miss,a mission, a. A risk mitigation
strategy. It is a
Indra Klavins (10:02):
risk mitigation strategy for the long term
success of your team so much ofleadership is, is not just
looking at this particularmoment in at the altitude you're
usually at, looking at it fromthe 10,000 foot view, and then
looking at it three months fromnow, six months from now, one
year from now, and understandingthe consequences of it, because
(10:23):
when you make these decisionsthat are out of line with your
with the norm, the ripple effectthat you hold on to them for a
really, really long time.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:35):
Yeah, I think we've talked about this during
our prep call, but it's verysimilar to, you know, setting
your your trade triggers foryour stock portfolio, right?
Like you want to, you want tohave that figured out ahead of
time, so that you're notimpacted by the heat of the
moment, the emotional like, justthe emotions of what's going on
(10:59):
currently in the market, to makedecisions 100%
Indra Klavins (11:02):
and so my friend Enrique, big supporter, He'll be
so happy that we're talkingabout trade triggers. Let me
explain what a trade trigger is,everyone. So when you are, when
you are working in the stockmarket, and you're using a
platform to invest and buy anytype of equity, equity can be a
stock, it can be lots ofdifferent things, but you're
trying to invest in something,right? One of the best practices
(11:26):
is to set trade triggers. Solet's say, you know, I'm trying
to buy Apple, I'm going tochoose numbers that are not
real, but like, I want to buyApple. Apple today is at $100
I'm buying it at $100 and I wantto make sure that I've decided
that, you know, when Applereaches like $125 that's when I
want to sell right? Maybe Appleis not the best example, because
(11:48):
it's pretty reliable, but y'alllike, when it reaches a certain
threshold, I sell it right, andthen, and then move on. Or if it
drops to, let's say, $75 I sellit and I set these automations
in place, and then when thesethings hit these thresholds,
that trade executes, right? Andyou can there's, I don't want to
go to the whole thing, butthat's what we're talking about.
(12:09):
Like trade triggers. The tradeis triggered by a certain set of
conditions, and therecommendation is to figure out
your trade triggers when themarket hours are not there, so
that you're not faced with allthose emotions of like,
watching, like, things bounce upand down, oh my gosh. Apple went
up $1 down $1 up $1 down $1 likelook at it,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:24):
right? It's at 125 but maybe it'll get to 126
127 Should I just hang on to it?And if you, if you get caught up
in those emotional decisions,it's like you said, you know, in
relation to letting your besttalent go. It's your you're
going to hold on to thosedecisions. You're going to be
(12:46):
thinking about that decisionthat you made emotionally for a
while,
Indra Klavins (12:50):
for a while, and, you know, but also, you know,
extending the trade triggerpiece, like, you can set
secondary triggers where you reevaluate the situation in any
sort of direction. So like, ifApple it sells automatically at
125 I can always have somethingset up if it ratchets up to 126
let's buy it again, and let'ssee what happens. Like you can I
(13:11):
mean, I'm not recommendinganyone takes this strategy. This
is, these are hypotheticalscenarios. I am so I have an
investment advisor because I donot know how to do this myself.
So all hypotheticals, notfinancial advice, but when we're
talking about people like, maybeyou know you have this plan
where you set these decisions,and you set this framework, and
you set whatever you want to do,and market conditions change. A
(13:33):
great example of marketconditions changing was the year
2021, the hiring recruitinglandscape was cuckoo for Cocoa
Puffs. Salaries skyrocketed.Everything was out of whack, and
everyone needed to make certain,certain decisions, right? And
you need to figure out, like,how am I handling things I can
(13:55):
revisit, like, this is myphilosophy, but if I ever want
to hire anyone, I need to makesome exceptions at this moment
in time. But then also, whatpeople need to think about was
like, when do I stop makingexceptions? That's your other
quote. Trade trigger, like, whenyou're making the exceptions.
Like, when do I try and changemy philosophy? So,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:16):
right? Figure out what your exceptions are,
right? Figure out what yourexceptions
Indra Klavins (14:19):
are. And so like, you know, bringing it back down
to, like, a, you know, moresimplistic level, like, take a
look. I would like on duringthose during those quiet times,
what is your org design? Howmany people do you have at
different levels? What are theexceptions you're willing to
make? What are the conditionsthat you want to make? Those
exceptions? Like, if I hadsomebody who was the chief
(14:43):
technical architect or ourcreative director or visionary
or strategist, or whatever,like, who are the what are the
types of talent that you'rewilling to make the exceptions,
or sometimes, like the literalperson, because, you know,
you're at a startup, and theywere the third hire, and they.
Happen to know an awful lot, orthey were the third hire, and
(15:03):
they're vital to your culture,and you're pretty confident that
that, like, you could have anexodus if that person leaves,
like, figure things out, bothlike, generically and
specifically, and then whenpeople do let go, like, do
choose to leave, don't feel likeit's an insult to yourself, I
think that that's part of ittoo,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:24):
right? There's not that. There's that emotional
piece, right? They take itpersonally, right? Yeah, and I
think it's just a really goodcall out that it's, yes, it is
personal, but it's also businessand, right, it's both. And
(15:44):
sometimes the best businessdecision is to just let that
person leave. Let
Indra Klavins (15:49):
them leave. I mean, this is this could
dovetail into, like, when youneed to exit someone, but let's
talk about the positives today,but you just need to let them
leave. It's for the greater.It's for the their betterment,
like, if you held on to thatperson, but you couldn't give
them the opportunities otherlike, or you would get them into
a situation where everyone'sresenting them because they got
(16:09):
like, that's not great,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:11):
right? It's not great. And I've seen, I've
witnessed those scenarios where,you know, they that person who
was irreplaceable, right? Got anoffer, and and the company
counter offered, and theystayed. And you know, the
stories people tell themselvesabout what happened there, and
(16:32):
it's just, it just sets a badprecedent.
Indra Klavins (16:36):
It sets a bad precedent. There's one time in
my career where I accepted acounter didn't work out,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:41):
oh yeah, it didn't work out. Precedent for
everybody, and it's just like,No, I I think it would have been
better for everyone, the personwho's trying to leave the
company. It's just better foreveryone if we just let that
person leave. Let them grow,
Indra Klavins (16:58):
let them grow. And when they grow, they create
space for someone new to enterin your organization, and that
brings new life and newperspective. Like, I love we
work with constantly hiringpeople. And while I was there,
were Blitzscaling, that's awhole nother conversation, but
with each new hire, they wouldall there every single week,
(17:18):
somebody would point out thesame things that we should be
doing. But like, you get thosefresh eyes, you get those fresh
eyes, you're like, oh, okay,yeah, we should do that. Yeah,
you know. And it's in you. Or wecan take a different
perspective, or they'll bring insomething from a different
industry. It doesn't stagnateyour organization. Like, if you
really hold on to everyone tootightly, it's like that
metaphor, like, if you let most,gosh, I'll back to my
microphone. If you, if you lovesomething, let it go. Or, how do
(17:41):
you keep a bird? Don't hold ittoo tightly, right? Like
there's, there's differentthings to it. So yeah, for sure.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:47):
And you know, you, you maintain that positive
relationship, I think is, is theone of the biggest benefits,
they don't resent you, right?They don't resent you, your car,
the employees who are left inthe organization don't resent
you or that person, like ifsomeone truly wants to leave
(18:09):
because you cannot give themwhat they are asking for. Okay,
let them be a proud alum, notalumni, alumnus,
Indra Klavins (18:19):
alumnus, yeah, and it's, and I think that it's
also part, don't forget to alsohave the right conversations
with people who are, quote, leftbehind, right? Because, like,
you know, I
Amanda Jane Lee (18:33):
said left behind, but I didn't mean it,
like, oh, left behind. There'sno, no. I didn't
Indra Klavins (18:37):
think you did, and I can't find a better phrase
for it, right? Like the peoplewho continue to remain right, so
like it, because they couldfeel, they will feel, they could
feel left behind by that person,right. They could feel like you
didn't fight hard enough forthem. You know, they could feel
a lot of different things. Ifyou need to have those
conversations with those folks,and really, yeah, have that
(19:01):
conversation with folks. Itcould be in like, risk
mitigation, in having themfollow that person. It could be,
you know, like you've got a lotof different things you need you
can't it's not just a one personthing. It's your entire team
that you need to address whenthese things happen. And be
clear and as transparent as youcan on your your philosophies
around talent and compensationand all of that stuff, and just
(19:23):
remind them and reinforce thosethings and say, Hey, we're
really happy when people findnew opportunities. Are we happy
that they left? No, but are wehappy that they found something
that really makes them happy?Yes, of course we are. Why
wouldn't we be fans of that?Yeah, I
Amanda Jane Lee (19:37):
think you said something really important.
There the reminders of thecompensation philosophy, right?
It's not just a, oh, I wrote itdown in a doc, and I shared it
in the all company Slackchannel, and here you go. I
think it's a constant reminderof this is our compensation
philosophy, especially,especially relevant around
(19:58):
review, cycle time and rate.Days and promotion time, right?
And just reminding everyone thatthis exists and be these are the
rules, right? The limitations,the boundaries. This is like,
how we think about compensationhere, and like, setting those
expectations up front,
Indra Klavins (20:17):
or reminding people what they are in the
economic downturns, like, let'sbe real about that stuff. Or
reminding people when you knowagain, 2021 wacky here in the
job market, remind like, havingthose reinforcing conversations,
having the like, or having thewe hear you conversations, or
having like, there's, there's somany, and not just having the
(20:39):
conversation, actually engagingin active listening in those
conversations and taking in,taking in those takeaways from
those team members, andcontinuing to close those loops
and follow ups in whichever wayyou need to. So, yeah, yeah. I
mean, we've
Amanda Jane Lee (20:56):
said risk mitigation a few times. Yeah,
something that I just thought ofwas, you know, this is going to
happen. It is your your besttalent is going to want to
leave. Fact, at some point it'sgoing to happen somebody,
somebody you thought like wasirreplaceable. You cannot
(21:16):
function as a company withoutthem. They are going to leave.
They're going to want to leave.So also think about how you're
going to fill that gap. I can'tthink of a better
Indra Klavins (21:27):
term resiliency. I think it's resiliency. How do
you build the resiliency intoyour organization?
Amanda Jane Lee (21:33):
Yes, right, right. How do you build that
resiliency? How do you build thestructure and the systems to to
lessen the load, to mitigatethat risk. To, you know, once
that person leaves, all of theirinstitutional knowledge doesn't
immediately disappear, andthat's
Indra Klavins (21:52):
some actually something that, I mean, it's
it's not easy to always do that,especially when an organization
is moving rapidly or isexperiencing a lot of pressures,
but having that kind of crosspollination, having the
succession planningconversations around things,
even at like, like, you won'tnecessarily have to document it
(22:15):
with your HR or people, people,professionals, but you know, You
You should always have that inthe back of your mind, like, oh,
what happens? Like, because,because the reality is that life
is lifey, and you never know.What could cause an exit, right?
You never know. And in thiscase, we're, we're talking
about, like, somebody got agreat opportunity. Always have
(22:38):
that. Always have that. And itcreates, it creates such rich
conversations, which I kind oflove. So, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:44):
yeah, for sure. Any other thoughts, no, I think
we, we covered, we covered a lotof ground
Indra Klavins (22:53):
here. Covered a lot of ground. I mean, another
thing is, it's think of it as agraduation.
Amanda Jane Lee (22:59):
I know I when you said that, I love it. I love
I love thinking about it as agraduation of this school that
you're really proud to haveattended, and you learn so much,
and you got to meet so manyamazing people,
Indra Klavins (23:13):
yeah, and then you'll be in touch with them.
You'll see them at a classreunion, a happy hour, or
whatever you know, like and youknow, and have have embraced
that embrace talent mobility,whether it's they're leaving an
organization to, you know,outside of the company, or going
to a sister team or whatever. Imean, see that as a strength.
You get to grow and develop themost exceptional talent that
(23:37):
then others are so grateful tohave on their team. Now, isn't
that delightful?
Amanda Jane Lee (23:42):
Yeah, and, you know, we talked about it in our
manager episode, right? But,like, that's, that's something
that you should consider whenyou, when you're considering
taking the leap to becoming apeople manager, right? Like,
are, is that the thing thatbrings you joy being able to
grow and mentor, and
Indra Klavins (24:02):
you know, let your little birds fly, get your
get your nest empty, get yournest empty, and then refill it
with new birdlings Anyway.Amanda, thank you again for
joining me for our conversationthat was so rich. Hopefully our
listeners got something good outof it, and I hope that, and
thank you to our listeners forlistening. I We hope that you
(24:24):
join us next time when we coveranother topic from the messy
middle
Unknown (24:27):
Bye, bye.
Indra Klavins (24:31):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(24:52):
feedback form at the messymiddlematters.com or in the show
notes. Thank you for joining uson this journey. This work is
better when we do it together.Together until next time bye.
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