August 13, 2025 • 17 mins
What do people mean when they say someone is “too senior”? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the layered, often coded ways the word "senior" is used in hiring and professional contexts.
From recruiter conversations to team dynamics, the term is frequently a stand-in for other qualities—such as executive presence, high salary expectations, and perceived difficulty to manage—that often reveal unspoken biases. They explore the disconnect between titles and actual responsibilities, challenge the euphemistic use of senior, and call for clearer, more honest language in describing skills and roles.
If you’ve ever been told you’re too much or not enough without a clear why, this episode is for you.
Useful Links:
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:00):
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? Good. How are you
Indra? I'm doing well, I'm doingwell. I know that you and I have
lately been thinking about theword seniority as a euphemism
and how people use it to mean somany different things in the
(00:30):
world, and I'll tell you, like arecent story that happens
because this is one of my petpeeves, is when people use words
really broadly with a definitionthat's unique to them. So
recently, I had a recruiterreach out to me, cold email,
cold email, reaching out to meabout a role. And I wasn't
interested in the role, becauseI'm doing my own thing now, but
(00:51):
I suggested a friend of mine,friend of mine, who I've you
know, collaborated with over theyears, fantastic human being,
same career stage andeverything. And I sent that off
to the recruiter. I said, Hey, Iknow this person is looking for
opportunities. They have a verysimilar background to mine. Here
you go. The recruiter sends anemail back to me. He goes, Don't
you think that that person istoo senior for this role? Oh,
(01:14):
what do you mean by that? Oh,the my self advocating self
said, Hello, my friend. Thisperson is a peer. Same career
stage led similar size scaleteams. You know, I if they're
too senior, I'm too senior.
Unknown (01:33):
I was like you, and you reached out to me. Colby
Indra Klavins (01:36):
was my personal email of all places to like. So
I have no idea how this persongot my email address, but not
that. It's that hard to figureout, but so he then he shot
back, oh, I hope that you're notoffended. That's not what I
intended. What I was trying tosay was that you're much more
hands on and into thepracticalities of the type of
role. And this person is muchmore into the, you know, the
(01:59):
theoretical. And I don't knowremember what other words they
use. It may have said strategic.I don't think they use the word
strategic, but they were reallyspeaking to like, the the
ability to executivestakeholder, and a lot of
different things that are outthere, all this jargon. So
sorry, folks, but that was howhe was differentiating, too. And
I'm like, Oh, that's not toosenior. That's two different
skill sets within the samecraft, like, and I will, I agree
(02:22):
with you that that person ismore of that but two, stop using
senior to differentiate the twoof us,
Unknown (02:29):
right? Like, I think this recruiter was using two
senior as just a catch all termwithout really understanding
maybe even there, they probablyunderstood their own definition
of two senior. But then, whenthey said
Indra Klavins (02:47):
it, they would understand how it hits. You
know,
Unknown (02:51):
like your definition is different. My definition is
different. My take on two senioris that. I mean, as you said,
it's a euphemism for
Indra Klavins (02:59):
other things. It's a euphemism for so many
other things. And I've, youknow, I've been guilty of using
the euphemism. I'll raise myhand on that one. But you know
when you're going to use theeuphemism, and sometimes you
need to use euphemisms in theworkplace for a whole slew of
reasons, a lot of reasons,right? A lot of them very legal,
(03:21):
but you need to be reallythoughtful about, like, an
intentional and aware of how andwhy are using them,
Unknown (03:28):
right? Yeah, I think it goes back. I think I reference
our words matter episode so manytimes. Words matter. Words
Matter mug. But like, what? Whatdo
Indra Klavins (03:42):
you mean by that? Like, tell me more, right?
Because to senior doesn't meananything to me. No, it doesn't.
And, you know, it's so let's gothrough the stuff that the
reasons, like some of the mostpopular reasons or ways that
people use the word senior as aeuphemism. So, and I'm going to
use very gross, simple language,not you know. So there's,
(04:03):
there's the person who is, like,just a figurehead, not a doer.
You know, we've seen this andheard about this in many, many
different things. You know? Theyjust get paraded out whenever
there's a big event, andeveryone's like, Oh my God, it's
such and such, yay. Like, right?There's the person who's, like,
really good at networking andstakeholdering and keynote
(04:24):
speaking and providing thoughtleadership in large forums,
right? So, like, that's a that'sa euphemism for that. You know,
someone who commands a highsalary executive presence. I use
that phrase before. Somebodywith that executive presence,
somebody who could bechallenging to lead sometimes,
oh, they're too senior for thatmeans I don't have the
confidence to be their leader,
Unknown (04:46):
right? They're going to challenge me too much, too much.
Indra Klavins (04:49):
And then the overqualified one, you know,
that usually happens inrecruitment conversation, so
like I've heard, and used allthose different ways,
Unknown (04:56):
the overqualified Patrick or something. For me,
because, like, I, I've heardthat feedback, like, personally,
right? Like, good old, you know,we've decided to move on with
some, move forward with someoneelse. And, like, Here, here's
the vague, general feedbackwe're going to give you. We
thought the team thought thatyou were too
Indra Klavins (05:17):
you were overqualified, and they treat,
they deliver it as if it's acompliment, and it's not like,
it's not the, you know, you areso wonderful at what you do,
and, you know, like the way thatwhen I've been in those
situations. So I was actuallypart of a hiring panel, hiring
somebody, recruiting somebody,and there were multiple leaders
(05:40):
who were making the hiringdecision on this particular
role, and so we had, we'd metlots of candidates, we had a
debrief on the conversation, andI'm like, say, Hey folks, what
did you think of Michelle andall three people who are helping
to make the hiring decision saidshe's overqualified. And I said,
Okay, why is that a bad thing. Iunderstand your perspective on
(06:03):
that. You know, I can see howyou would think that. But isn't
it her decision as to whether ornot she takes this job? Like, we
can have the very crucialconversation and candid
conversation saying, Hey, youhave this really good breadth of
skills and like, I don't know ifyou might be bored in this
(06:24):
conversation. Like, the role isnot going to allow you to
exercise this, this and this,because that, that and that is
going to demand all of yourtime. You can have that
conversation and then give thecandidate, or give the person
the opportunity to say, hey, youknow what? You're right, I would
get bored like that is not mydecision to make,
Unknown (06:41):
right? Instead of giving this vague feedback of
the team thought you wereoverqualified. And so what I
think is interesting is, and Ijust thought I know, a few
episodes back, we talked aboutunicorn hunting,
Indra Klavins (06:56):
unicorn hunting, yes,
Unknown (06:58):
right? We talked about unicorn hunting. And I think
it's so interesting that this,this dichotomy exists of just
like we want the best, brighteststar, unicorn, but also not too
qualified, because we're gonnatell you, you're overqualified,
you're too senior. Actually,it's so it, but it's
Indra Klavins (07:21):
so true. I think it's, we're not clear, like,
we're not clear on, and I thinkthat that might be why some
people also use the euphemismsenior. Like, they may not even
know what they're trying to say,but they yank in the word
they're, like, feels too seniorto me, or, Oh, they're so
senior, like, I don't understandthat, you know,
Unknown (07:40):
right? It, yeah, it's, it's just the again, it's a
catch all term that capturesunclear expectations, or, like,
you actually don't know whatyou're looking for, right? I
just know it's not right. So I'mgonna say it's too they're too
senior. They're
Indra Klavins (07:59):
too senior, and, like some of the other ones,
they might literally think thatsomebody is too chronologically
senior.
Unknown (08:07):
That is a good PC way of saying,
Indra Klavins (08:14):
oh, you know, because it's so funny, like it's
or they're like, are they're tooexpensive. That's another way to
say to senior especially inrecruitment. Or, you know, they
have antiquated thinking. Like,I've had conversations with
folks who are looking for roles,the market is tough right now.
Like, let's be very honest, forknowledge workers, really,
really tough. And like, they getall of this feedback, and it's,
(08:39):
I don't know if it's so like,they'll say that it's ageism. I
don't know if it's like,directly ageism, but I see how
age plays into it because it isthis. I don't know how to manage
this person. I don't know ifthey'll be contemporary in their
thinking. I don't know if I canafford I don't know so, right?
There
Unknown (08:57):
are a lot of correlations here. Yes, right?
Yes, the two chronologicallysenior, chronologically
Indra Klavins (09:05):
senior ones, right? Well, you bring
Unknown (09:09):
up an interesting point, right? Like, I think it's
this catch all term to hidebiases, whether or not you're
intentionally hiding them 100%
Indra Klavins (09:23):
and like whether they're conscious or
unconscious, to your point,right? That's the question. And
I think that what I like to dowhen I catch myself in some sort
of euphemism is ask myself, whyam I saying it? And is there a
way, if there isn't a superuseful way for me to be using
that euphemism. Are theredifferent words, or is there a
(09:44):
qualifier that I can use forit's like, hey, that person has
a lot of scope, like, a lot ofbackground, and they're used to
working on super complexsystems, and what we have right
now is a pretty straightforwardprocess. I don't know if they're
going to be happy and engagedenough. In this role, you can
have that dialog with, let'ssay, I mean, I think recruiting,
recruitment is probably theeasiest place for us to talk
(10:06):
about some of this stuff, right?But it applies in lots of
different places. But then youcan have that conversation with
that panel that's evaluatingcandidates, right? And then
you'll be able to examine like,Oh, are we all in agreement with
what that means? Can we overcomethat? Is this something that we
should put into that candidate'scourt and say, Hey, let me paint
(10:27):
the landscape for you, right?You know, because the law
exists, the employment lawexists to protect a lot of the
employment law, I won't say allof it, but a lot of the
employment law exists to protectthe candidates and the
individuals, right? Let them,and it's there for a reason. Let
them make the decisions. Powerthem with that. And if you need
to recruit in six months, youdidn't read their you might need
(10:50):
to recruit in six months. If youwound up with you know, not
going with that person too.You're never guaranteeing
bulletproofing your decision.So, right? I think a good place
to start would be, you know,when you hear, Oh, they're too
senior, right, or they'reoverqualified, yeah, we're using
those pieces of feedbackinterchangeably in this
(11:10):
conversation. But I think a goodplace to start would be
Unknown (11:15):
asking yourself or asking the team, what, is the
concern? What is your concernwith that? Yeah, right. Like,
what's that the real issue here?Like, why are you giving this
feedback? Is it because youthink that they're too
expensive, that you know they'rejust not within budget, right?
(11:36):
Yeah, okay, bring that back tothe candidate and say, Hey, this
is what we're gonna pay and toyour your point about, you know,
when you were talking about theMichelle, let them make the
decision.
Indra Klavins (11:50):
Let them make the decision. And, you know, it's
also the other side of this iswhen somebody says you're not
senior enough, or you're toosenior, or whatever, like,
whatever, the answer is, like,maybe the not senior enough,
because that's what triggeredfor me in that exchange with
that recruiter, was like thatnot enoughness. I'm like, hold
on, hold the mic. I have I dofor I have the feedback I've
(12:17):
received over the course of mycareer. You know, not enough
executive presence or notenough, you know, I some, some
stakeholder management I'mreally good at, and some sticker
older management I'm less goodat, right? And so some of that
stuff might be that, or, youknow, I don't I'm not the I'm I
will, not, I will. I will bechallenged when I'm in a room
(12:38):
full of suits who are used toposturing and and having
conversations based on the rulesof boardrooms from the 1980s
right? I'm going to bechallenged. I'm going to be
challenged to mask, blend fitin, you know, go toe to toe in
that whatever, like measurementcontest that's going on there. I
(13:00):
think we could
Unknown (13:00):
do a whole episode about executive presence,
because I have a lot ofthoughts, probably too
Indra Klavins (13:06):
probably, and I think, but I think that in this
scenario, when you are theperson receiving the feedback
saying that you're too senior ornot senior enough, ask the
qualifying question or aclarifying question. Not
qualified clarifying questionssay, hey, that word can mean
lots of different things. It's alittle trickier to ask that
question then, versus like, Whatdo you mean by design? But ask
(13:28):
that question, you know, andsay, Hey, what did you mean by
that? Because I'm just trying tounderstand, because the words
can mean different things, and Iwant to make sure I'm ingesting
your feedback in the most in themost clear way, right? It's a
polite
Unknown (13:42):
way of asking people to be more more detailed, direct
feedback, direct detailed,actually actionable feedback, as
opposed to, you're too senior,you're too senior,
Indra Klavins (13:58):
you're too senior. And, you know, I think
that we all need to checkourselves for when we like I
said, I think it's where westarted this whole conversation.
Need to check ourselves on whenwe use that type of terminology,
like because it can, it can bevery damaging. You know, in the
worst case scenarios, in themiddle scenarios, it can be
confusing and ambiguous, AF,right? And the best case
(14:20):
scenarios, you're alignedbecause you're in a group that
you've had used these euphemismsbefore, again, for legal
reasons. You might be usingeuphemisms to talk around
things, but you know, do better.We all need to do better. I need
to do better for using the wordand for advocating for clarity,
and I think that we all do.Yeah, I think that last
Unknown (14:39):
point, it what jumped into my brain was it might be
part of the company culture touse these euphemisms, right,
instead of being more
Indra Klavins (14:51):
direct and detailed. Not every company is
direct, and I don't do well inthose Yeah. No. Think you're
right. Sometimes you're battlingculture, and sometimes you can't
get that clarity. I mean, asmuch as you might want to, you
can, you gotta. You can maybenudge towards it. Maybe go
(15:11):
ahead, yeah,
Unknown (15:12):
you can nudge towards it. You can poke a little, but
you may never get it, dependingon the company and its culture
and how much they're willing toshare their honest thoughts.
Indra Klavins (15:26):
I have a little bit of cough water went down the
wrong pipe. Um, anyway, so inthose scenarios, I'm thinking of
a tactic that's worked for me inthe past. When people haven't
been able to clarify, what dothey mean by something I'm like,
Are they more like this personor more like that person? Not
that, not that everyone can bealigned to or whatever, but are
(15:47):
they, you know, more like thisleader or more like that leader?
That might give you the sense ofthat, like, oh, okay, I
understand what you're saying.Or, or if you can't go that
direct route, you can say, youknow, who would be good for
this? Like, what's an example ofthe seniority that you're
talking about? That's anotherbackdoor weigh in, right? I feel
like we've
Unknown (16:07):
had this conversation about, I forget even what the
topic was, but, and I'm gonnachange names, right? But we've
had this conversation of like,well, who's a good example of
this. And everybody in the roomwas like, you know, Dan's a good
example of this, exactly.
Indra Klavins (16:29):
And that's a lovely way to get the attributes
when people can't find theirwords, right? Love it. Yeah, any
other thoughts or things thatyou want to add?
Unknown (16:41):
No, um, I think, I think the recap is, let's be
more clear about what two seniormeans, because it's a vague
term.
Indra Klavins (16:51):
It's vague. It's so vague, overused broadly,
maybe not. Yeah, overusedbroadly, used in way too many
contexts for us just to be ableto be able to use it and assume
that everybody understands we'retalking about and it's clear,
and it's clear. Yay. Thank you,Amanda, for yet another lovely
(17:12):
conversation around something inthe messy middle. Hopefully
everybody who is listening gotsomething out of today's
episode, and you'll join us nexttime for another topic for the
messy middle. Bye, everyone.Bye. Thanks for taking time with
us in the messy middle. Word ofmouth remains most powerful way
(17:32):
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
you, we'd love it. If you'dsubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite app, download a fewepisodes and share it with
someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore?
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
or in the show notes. Thank youfor joining us on this journey.
(17:54):
This work is better when we doit together. Until next time.
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? Good. How are you
Indra? I'm doing well, I'm doingwell. I know that you and I have
lately been thinking about theword seniority as a euphemism
and how people use it to mean somany different things in the
(00:30):
world, and I'll tell you, like arecent story that happens
because this is one of my petpeeves, is when people use words
really broadly with a definitionthat's unique to them. So
recently, I had a recruiterreach out to me, cold email,
cold email, reaching out to meabout a role. And I wasn't
interested in the role, becauseI'm doing my own thing now, but
(00:51):
I suggested a friend of mine,friend of mine, who I've you
know, collaborated with over theyears, fantastic human being,
same career stage andeverything. And I sent that off
to the recruiter. I said, Hey, Iknow this person is looking for
opportunities. They have a verysimilar background to mine. Here
you go. The recruiter sends anemail back to me. He goes, Don't
you think that that person istoo senior for this role? Oh,
(01:14):
what do you mean by that? Oh,the my self advocating self
said, Hello, my friend. Thisperson is a peer. Same career
stage led similar size scaleteams. You know, I if they're
too senior, I'm too senior.
Unknown (01:33):
I was like you, and you reached out to me. Colby
Indra Klavins (01:36):
was my personal email of all places to like. So
I have no idea how this persongot my email address, but not
that. It's that hard to figureout, but so he then he shot
back, oh, I hope that you're notoffended. That's not what I
intended. What I was trying tosay was that you're much more
hands on and into thepracticalities of the type of
role. And this person is muchmore into the, you know, the
(01:59):
theoretical. And I don't knowremember what other words they
use. It may have said strategic.I don't think they use the word
strategic, but they were reallyspeaking to like, the the
ability to executivestakeholder, and a lot of
different things that are outthere, all this jargon. So
sorry, folks, but that was howhe was differentiating, too. And
I'm like, Oh, that's not toosenior. That's two different
skill sets within the samecraft, like, and I will, I agree
(02:22):
with you that that person ismore of that but two, stop using
senior to differentiate the twoof us,
Unknown (02:29):
right? Like, I think this recruiter was using two
senior as just a catch all termwithout really understanding
maybe even there, they probablyunderstood their own definition
of two senior. But then, whenthey said
Indra Klavins (02:47):
it, they would understand how it hits. You
know,
Unknown (02:51):
like your definition is different. My definition is
different. My take on two senioris that. I mean, as you said,
it's a euphemism for
Indra Klavins (02:59):
other things. It's a euphemism for so many
other things. And I've, youknow, I've been guilty of using
the euphemism. I'll raise myhand on that one. But you know
when you're going to use theeuphemism, and sometimes you
need to use euphemisms in theworkplace for a whole slew of
reasons, a lot of reasons,right? A lot of them very legal,
(03:21):
but you need to be reallythoughtful about, like, an
intentional and aware of how andwhy are using them,
Unknown (03:28):
right? Yeah, I think it goes back. I think I reference
our words matter episode so manytimes. Words matter. Words
Matter mug. But like, what? Whatdo
Indra Klavins (03:42):
you mean by that? Like, tell me more, right?
Because to senior doesn't meananything to me. No, it doesn't.
And, you know, it's so let's gothrough the stuff that the
reasons, like some of the mostpopular reasons or ways that
people use the word senior as aeuphemism. So, and I'm going to
use very gross, simple language,not you know. So there's,
(04:03):
there's the person who is, like,just a figurehead, not a doer.
You know, we've seen this andheard about this in many, many
different things. You know? Theyjust get paraded out whenever
there's a big event, andeveryone's like, Oh my God, it's
such and such, yay. Like, right?There's the person who's, like,
really good at networking andstakeholdering and keynote
(04:24):
speaking and providing thoughtleadership in large forums,
right? So, like, that's a that'sa euphemism for that. You know,
someone who commands a highsalary executive presence. I use
that phrase before. Somebodywith that executive presence,
somebody who could bechallenging to lead sometimes,
oh, they're too senior for thatmeans I don't have the
confidence to be their leader,
Unknown (04:46):
right? They're going to challenge me too much, too much.
Indra Klavins (04:49):
And then the overqualified one, you know,
that usually happens inrecruitment conversation, so
like I've heard, and used allthose different ways,
Unknown (04:56):
the overqualified Patrick or something. For me,
because, like, I, I've heardthat feedback, like, personally,
right? Like, good old, you know,we've decided to move on with
some, move forward with someoneelse. And, like, Here, here's
the vague, general feedbackwe're going to give you. We
thought the team thought thatyou were too
Indra Klavins (05:17):
you were overqualified, and they treat,
they deliver it as if it's acompliment, and it's not like,
it's not the, you know, you areso wonderful at what you do,
and, you know, like the way thatwhen I've been in those
situations. So I was actuallypart of a hiring panel, hiring
somebody, recruiting somebody,and there were multiple leaders
(05:40):
who were making the hiringdecision on this particular
role, and so we had, we'd metlots of candidates, we had a
debrief on the conversation, andI'm like, say, Hey folks, what
did you think of Michelle andall three people who are helping
to make the hiring decision saidshe's overqualified. And I said,
Okay, why is that a bad thing. Iunderstand your perspective on
(06:03):
that. You know, I can see howyou would think that. But isn't
it her decision as to whether ornot she takes this job? Like, we
can have the very crucialconversation and candid
conversation saying, Hey, youhave this really good breadth of
skills and like, I don't know ifyou might be bored in this
(06:24):
conversation. Like, the role isnot going to allow you to
exercise this, this and this,because that, that and that is
going to demand all of yourtime. You can have that
conversation and then give thecandidate, or give the person
the opportunity to say, hey, youknow what? You're right, I would
get bored like that is not mydecision to make,
Unknown (06:41):
right? Instead of giving this vague feedback of
the team thought you wereoverqualified. And so what I
think is interesting is, and Ijust thought I know, a few
episodes back, we talked aboutunicorn hunting,
Indra Klavins (06:56):
unicorn hunting, yes,
Unknown (06:58):
right? We talked about unicorn hunting. And I think
it's so interesting that this,this dichotomy exists of just
like we want the best, brighteststar, unicorn, but also not too
qualified, because we're gonnatell you, you're overqualified,
you're too senior. Actually,it's so it, but it's
Indra Klavins (07:21):
so true. I think it's, we're not clear, like,
we're not clear on, and I thinkthat that might be why some
people also use the euphemismsenior. Like, they may not even
know what they're trying to say,but they yank in the word
they're, like, feels too seniorto me, or, Oh, they're so
senior, like, I don't understandthat, you know,
Unknown (07:40):
right? It, yeah, it's, it's just the again, it's a
catch all term that capturesunclear expectations, or, like,
you actually don't know whatyou're looking for, right? I
just know it's not right. So I'mgonna say it's too they're too
senior. They're
Indra Klavins (07:59):
too senior, and, like some of the other ones,
they might literally think thatsomebody is too chronologically
senior.
Unknown (08:07):
That is a good PC way of saying,
Indra Klavins (08:14):
oh, you know, because it's so funny, like it's
or they're like, are they're tooexpensive. That's another way to
say to senior especially inrecruitment. Or, you know, they
have antiquated thinking. Like,I've had conversations with
folks who are looking for roles,the market is tough right now.
Like, let's be very honest, forknowledge workers, really,
really tough. And like, they getall of this feedback, and it's,
(08:39):
I don't know if it's so like,they'll say that it's ageism. I
don't know if it's like,directly ageism, but I see how
age plays into it because it isthis. I don't know how to manage
this person. I don't know ifthey'll be contemporary in their
thinking. I don't know if I canafford I don't know so, right?
There
Unknown (08:57):
are a lot of correlations here. Yes, right?
Yes, the two chronologicallysenior, chronologically
Indra Klavins (09:05):
senior ones, right? Well, you bring
Unknown (09:09):
up an interesting point, right? Like, I think it's
this catch all term to hidebiases, whether or not you're
intentionally hiding them 100%
Indra Klavins (09:23):
and like whether they're conscious or
unconscious, to your point,right? That's the question. And
I think that what I like to dowhen I catch myself in some sort
of euphemism is ask myself, whyam I saying it? And is there a
way, if there isn't a superuseful way for me to be using
that euphemism. Are theredifferent words, or is there a
(09:44):
qualifier that I can use forit's like, hey, that person has
a lot of scope, like, a lot ofbackground, and they're used to
working on super complexsystems, and what we have right
now is a pretty straightforwardprocess. I don't know if they're
going to be happy and engagedenough. In this role, you can
have that dialog with, let'ssay, I mean, I think recruiting,
recruitment is probably theeasiest place for us to talk
(10:06):
about some of this stuff, right?But it applies in lots of
different places. But then youcan have that conversation with
that panel that's evaluatingcandidates, right? And then
you'll be able to examine like,Oh, are we all in agreement with
what that means? Can we overcomethat? Is this something that we
should put into that candidate'scourt and say, Hey, let me paint
(10:27):
the landscape for you, right?You know, because the law
exists, the employment lawexists to protect a lot of the
employment law, I won't say allof it, but a lot of the
employment law exists to protectthe candidates and the
individuals, right? Let them,and it's there for a reason. Let
them make the decisions. Powerthem with that. And if you need
to recruit in six months, youdidn't read their you might need
(10:50):
to recruit in six months. If youwound up with you know, not
going with that person too.You're never guaranteeing
bulletproofing your decision.So, right? I think a good place
to start would be, you know,when you hear, Oh, they're too
senior, right, or they'reoverqualified, yeah, we're using
those pieces of feedbackinterchangeably in this
(11:10):
conversation. But I think a goodplace to start would be
Unknown (11:15):
asking yourself or asking the team, what, is the
concern? What is your concernwith that? Yeah, right. Like,
what's that the real issue here?Like, why are you giving this
feedback? Is it because youthink that they're too
expensive, that you know they'rejust not within budget, right?
(11:36):
Yeah, okay, bring that back tothe candidate and say, Hey, this
is what we're gonna pay and toyour your point about, you know,
when you were talking about theMichelle, let them make the
decision.
Indra Klavins (11:50):
Let them make the decision. And, you know, it's
also the other side of this iswhen somebody says you're not
senior enough, or you're toosenior, or whatever, like,
whatever, the answer is, like,maybe the not senior enough,
because that's what triggeredfor me in that exchange with
that recruiter, was like thatnot enoughness. I'm like, hold
on, hold the mic. I have I dofor I have the feedback I've
(12:17):
received over the course of mycareer. You know, not enough
executive presence or notenough, you know, I some, some
stakeholder management I'mreally good at, and some sticker
older management I'm less goodat, right? And so some of that
stuff might be that, or, youknow, I don't I'm not the I'm I
will, not, I will. I will bechallenged when I'm in a room
(12:38):
full of suits who are used toposturing and and having
conversations based on the rulesof boardrooms from the 1980s
right? I'm going to bechallenged. I'm going to be
challenged to mask, blend fitin, you know, go toe to toe in
that whatever, like measurementcontest that's going on there. I
(13:00):
think we could
Unknown (13:00):
do a whole episode about executive presence,
because I have a lot ofthoughts, probably too
Indra Klavins (13:06):
probably, and I think, but I think that in this
scenario, when you are theperson receiving the feedback
saying that you're too senior ornot senior enough, ask the
qualifying question or aclarifying question. Not
qualified clarifying questionssay, hey, that word can mean
lots of different things. It's alittle trickier to ask that
question then, versus like, Whatdo you mean by design? But ask
(13:28):
that question, you know, andsay, Hey, what did you mean by
that? Because I'm just trying tounderstand, because the words
can mean different things, and Iwant to make sure I'm ingesting
your feedback in the most in themost clear way, right? It's a
polite
Unknown (13:42):
way of asking people to be more more detailed, direct
feedback, direct detailed,actually actionable feedback, as
opposed to, you're too senior,you're too senior,
Indra Klavins (13:58):
you're too senior. And, you know, I think
that we all need to checkourselves for when we like I
said, I think it's where westarted this whole conversation.
Need to check ourselves on whenwe use that type of terminology,
like because it can, it can bevery damaging. You know, in the
worst case scenarios, in themiddle scenarios, it can be
confusing and ambiguous, AF,right? And the best case
(14:20):
scenarios, you're alignedbecause you're in a group that
you've had used these euphemismsbefore, again, for legal
reasons. You might be usingeuphemisms to talk around
things, but you know, do better.We all need to do better. I need
to do better for using the wordand for advocating for clarity,
and I think that we all do.Yeah, I think that last
Unknown (14:39):
point, it what jumped into my brain was it might be
part of the company culture touse these euphemisms, right,
instead of being more
Indra Klavins (14:51):
direct and detailed. Not every company is
direct, and I don't do well inthose Yeah. No. Think you're
right. Sometimes you're battlingculture, and sometimes you can't
get that clarity. I mean, asmuch as you might want to, you
can, you gotta. You can maybenudge towards it. Maybe go
(15:11):
ahead, yeah,
Unknown (15:12):
you can nudge towards it. You can poke a little, but
you may never get it, dependingon the company and its culture
and how much they're willing toshare their honest thoughts.
Indra Klavins (15:26):
I have a little bit of cough water went down the
wrong pipe. Um, anyway, so inthose scenarios, I'm thinking of
a tactic that's worked for me inthe past. When people haven't
been able to clarify, what dothey mean by something I'm like,
Are they more like this personor more like that person? Not
that, not that everyone can bealigned to or whatever, but are
(15:47):
they, you know, more like thisleader or more like that leader?
That might give you the sense ofthat, like, oh, okay, I
understand what you're saying.Or, or if you can't go that
direct route, you can say, youknow, who would be good for
this? Like, what's an example ofthe seniority that you're
talking about? That's anotherbackdoor weigh in, right? I feel
like we've
Unknown (16:07):
had this conversation about, I forget even what the
topic was, but, and I'm gonnachange names, right? But we've
had this conversation of like,well, who's a good example of
this. And everybody in the roomwas like, you know, Dan's a good
example of this, exactly.
Indra Klavins (16:29):
And that's a lovely way to get the attributes
when people can't find theirwords, right? Love it. Yeah, any
other thoughts or things thatyou want to add?
Unknown (16:41):
No, um, I think, I think the recap is, let's be
more clear about what two seniormeans, because it's a vague
term.
Indra Klavins (16:51):
It's vague. It's so vague, overused broadly,
maybe not. Yeah, overusedbroadly, used in way too many
contexts for us just to be ableto be able to use it and assume
that everybody understands we'retalking about and it's clear,
and it's clear. Yay. Thank you,Amanda, for yet another lovely
(17:12):
conversation around something inthe messy middle. Hopefully
everybody who is listening gotsomething out of today's
episode, and you'll join us nexttime for another topic for the
messy middle. Bye, everyone.Bye. Thanks for taking time with
us in the messy middle. Word ofmouth remains most powerful way
(17:32):
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
you, we'd love it. If you'dsubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite app, download a fewepisodes and share it with
someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore?
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
or in the show notes. Thank youfor joining us on this journey.
(17:54):
This work is better when we doit together. Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.