September 3, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack a workplace tension that’s all too familiar: what happens when incentives, outputs, and motivation aren’t aligned.
They begin by defining key terms: intrinsic incentives (such as purpose or pride), extrinsic incentives (like pay or praise), and outputs (the tangible results of one's work). Then, they dive into two primary sources of misalignment:
- Conflicting incentives between teams, crafts, or departments
- Leadership messages that don’t match real decisions or rewards
With real-life examples, they explore the awkward dynamics that arise when your motivation doesn't match the system you're working in. Whether it's security versus speed, innovation versus client demands, or personal growth versus team goals, misalignment can erode culture, trust, and progress.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today?
I'm good. How are you Indra?
I'm doing well, I'm doing welltoday we're having one of those
episodes where we're going tostart with definitions, because,
you know, one of the things thatwe hold true, it's from our
(00:31):
episode two, is that wordsmatter, and having shared
understanding of words mattersmore than anything. So a few
words for everybody who'slistening. So we're going to
talk, be talking about intrinsicincentives, extrinsic incentives
and outputs, and theintersection of those three so
intrinsic incentives, those arethe internal motivators, the
(00:53):
things that drive us becausethey feel meaningful, satisfying
or aligned with who we are. It'sthe fulfillment you get from
solving a complex problem,helping a teammate or doing work
that reflects your values, evenwhen no one's watching.
Extrinsic incentives are theexternal motivators, things like
money, promotions, praise oravoiding punishment, they're
(01:16):
about what you get or avoid fromthe outside world in exchange
for your effort. Last one isoutputs. Those are the tangible
things that a person or teamproduces, the visible results of
their work. That could be aproject, plan a code commit, a
campaign, launch a workshop, youdelivered a customer ticket that
got resolved. It's the what inwhat you create and when you
(01:39):
complete it. So those are ourwords for the day. And you know,
the reason that we're talkingabout this today is one of the
biggest challenges at work iswhen you know those three are
not aligned with each other. Itwas briefly mentioned in our
episode between the naturaltension between professional
growth and teams, Team loyaltyand those types of things,
(02:01):
right? And team cohesion, butthis is so prevalent across, you
know, any company that I've beena part of. So today we'll focus
on two areas. One is themisalignment of incentives
between departments, crafts orteams, and the other one is the
disconnect between what leaderssay and what they value and what
they ask people to do. So we gota whole lot of stuff there, so I
(02:25):
just gave a little bit of a justan outline of the framework of
what we're going to be talkingabout today. But Amanda, I'm
positive you're having areaction as I was reading those
words, I was feeling thereaction in myself too.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:41):
I feel like this. This could get a little
spicy, like the topic screamsconflict or misalignment, or
like a failure in quotes tocollaborate, or things just
aren't meshing, right? Thingsaren't meshing, and there's
(03:03):
tension. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (03:06):
exactly, exactly. And that tension may be, you may
be conscious of it, you mightnot be conscious of it. Like,
there's lots of different waysthat this manifests. So let's
talk about, like, the easierone, it's it's smaller, it's
easier to address, it's easierto talk about, and it's easier
to address, which is themisalignment between
departments, or disalignmentbetween teams, or dismissal
(03:27):
alignment between crafts. Like,I've got a I've got a perfect
story. So I was leading a UXdesign team, and I had a member
of my team who had this reallygreat idea on how she wanted the
design to proceed. And therewere all these really good
reasons as to why her idea wasvalid. And she came to me, she's
like, flustered and flummoxedand just beside herself. She's
(03:49):
like, I was talking to thesoftware engineer, and they, you
know, I told them what I wantedto do, and they didn't want to
do it. And she's like, how couldthey, like, as if it was some
sort of moral deficit on theirpart that they didn't see her
point, right? I said to her, Isaid, Hey, let's pause a second.
Do you so at that company thatwas working at we were getting
(04:11):
paid quarterly bonuses, soeveryone was very conscious of
what they were getting measuredon all the time. And I said to
her, I said, Have you thoughtabout what he gets measured on
for his quarterly bonus. Shegoes, No, I haven't. I said, Oh,
okay, great. Let's, let's, Idon't know either, because I'm
not in their department, butlet's, let, let's play pretend.
Let's pray pretend. And let mehypothesize that he is going to
(04:36):
get partially rewarded on thenumber of stories that he
delivers using the AgileFramework. You know, the number
of things that he's delivered,he is going to be incentivized
on, you know, number of releasesto production. He is going to be
incentivized on the lack ofdefects in his code, right?
Like, let's just go with thosethree. I said, Do you see how
your idea could be getting inthe way of him hitting his.
(05:00):
Quarterly targets and gettinghis quarterly bonus.
All right, so now let's come upwith a plan. Let's go up with a
plan to get what you want andnot mess with his bag, right?
Yeah, I think
Amanda Jane Lee (05:16):
it's yet another example of like, take a
step back, start from anempathetic place, right, put
yourself in that person's shoes,and maybe it'll click and make
sense 100%
Indra Klavins (05:29):
and and, like, in the workplace, it's so funny.
And I've, I've cut my teeth, orI've spent an awful lot of time
with either software engineersor UX designers and those the
associated crafts, and so likein in either of those fields,
it's remarkably, it's it'sstriking how often either one of
(05:50):
those sets of folks would saythe user would want, or like,
all this empathy for the user,which may or may not be
accurate, but let's assume, forthe sake of argument, that it's
accurate, right? They have allthis empathy for the user, but
forget to apply that same kindof thinking for their
colleagues.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:05):
It is as you were telling that story. Another
example that came to my mind wasthe and I've seen this, I think,
at every company that I'veworked with or worked at the
tension. Between the customersupport team and the engineering
(06:27):
team. Yes, the customer supportteam is usually measured on how
many tickets are resolved, howfast they're resolved. Like a
customer, you know, writes inand says, Hey, I found a bug. I
found a defect. Something's notworking. Can you fix it? And
it's usually on, like, up to theengineering team to go fix that
(06:50):
thing. But the engineering teamhas their set of priorities, and
they're just like, well, I'vealready been told that, like,
these are my top 10. Sorry, yourcustomer defect isn't on that.
I'm not working on it. Well,
Indra Klavins (07:05):
you're talking about extrinsic incentives of
what people get measured on.I'll give you an intrinsic one
that goes with that same type ofthing, call volume. Call volume,
if you're in a large company oreven a small company, if your
customer support team gets inflood of call volume from a
release, and they're not readyfor it. They were not briefed on
(07:26):
it. They don't have the talkingpoints on it. They weren't like
they're not ready to to to copewith that incoming feedback,
right, rightful or not, right?Because people don't like
change, let's be honest. But youknow, you don't deal with that,
you've got a different kind ofconflict, where intrinsic and
extrinsic, they just don't wantto have a headache all day long,
(07:47):
right? They don't want
Amanda Jane Lee (07:47):
the headache. They don't want to get burnt
out. They don't they don't wantto talk to this many customers a
day.
Indra Klavins (07:53):
No? I mean, they do, but not when they're all
seething at them. Okay, let metell you. I mean, so, I mean, I
think that in those scenarios, Ithink it's so important to and I
gave a talk on this years ago.It's so funny, I actually just
found it online again, like it'sbehind a paywall. I'm like, I
will figure out how to make Imight make it an episode so that
(08:14):
we can. I'll revisit the talk.But it's about understanding
somebody else's motivations,understanding somebody else's
origin stories, understanding,you know who they are, like,
what's their, what's their whatare they? What are they jazzed
about? What are they jazzedabout? And when you understand
that, and you also try andunderstand because you never
will really know what hits theirpocketbook like, or what impacts
(08:38):
their pocketbook, if you try andkeep those two things in mind
when you're working withsomebody else, or try and help
them understand yours, you're ina much better place, yeah?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:50):
And then it's putting that on the table,
right? And like, assessing it,and being able to, oh, like, now
that I know, or can assume,yeah, this is what everyone's
incentives are. Then you canlike, you'll realize, oh, where,
where is the misalignment? Isthe misalignment between us? Is
(09:12):
the misalignment between like,what's important to us is the
misalignment between us and whatleadership is telling us? Like,
where, where is the the frictionpoint?
Indra Klavins (09:24):
Yeah, and I know you have a lot of experience
with this one, like one of theor some of the teams that have
the most friction with everyonein an organization, legal,
compliance, InfoSec, anybodywho's trying to keep the company
safe and out of litigation andstate, physically stable,
(09:46):
technically stable,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:48):
like the more like, operational pieces, yeah,
organization, yeah,
Indra Klavins (09:53):
yeah. Cuz I'm like, I just, I just think about
like, so for me, I think I'vehad more experience with, like,
the legal and compliance.Inside. I think that you've had
more experience with like thesecurity teams like in this that
like engineering wants to do X,whether it's pushing code,
getting a piece of software,whatever
Amanda Jane Lee (10:12):
like and right. And a lot of engineering teams
don't have security don't havethe security team and the
securities, the security teamsrequirements top of mind. I'm
not saying that engineeringteams are like, No, screw
security
Indra Klavins (10:27):
because, because they don't want to get woken up
at two o'clock in the morningwhen there's a security breach,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:32):
right? But it's not the most top of mind when,
especially when you're trying toship something fast, right?
Indra Klavins (10:39):
And your product person is like, I have to, I
have to, I have to, you have to,or else, you know, rah, rah,
rah, rah, the sky is falling.Like, insecurities, like, you
know, you're going to bring downthe whole infrastructure in the
process, right, right? Like, has
Amanda Jane Lee (10:51):
anybody taken a look at what you're trying to do
and assess the security risk ofthis new product or feature? And
sometimes the answer is no, andthen, like, everybody gets upset
because it's a slowdown right?
Indra Klavins (11:07):
Well, but what they don't realize is that if
you're proactive and you'reslowed down, and I know you know
this, if you slow down and areproactive in those
conversations, you have themearly, or you have them
strategically, or you buildthose relationships so that when
something comes from, like from,from left field, and you need to
do it right away, you know thatthere's some, there's a fair bit
(11:27):
of risk to it, you can, you canget that conversation moving a
lot more quickly. So it's like,it's the slow down to speed up
kind of thing. Like, you got toslow down build the foundation,
whether it's for that particularproject or for just like that
more durable relationshipoverall, so that you can start
flowing things through and bringthem into the process at the
(11:47):
right times, like they don'twant to stop you, because that
gives them addict they theydon't want to be they don't want
to hear your griping the sameway a call center doesn't want
to hear customers griping,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:55):
right? That's their intrinsic motivation,
right? Exactly,
Indra Klavins (12:00):
exactly. They don't want
Amanda Jane Lee (12:01):
to argue with you. No, it's, it's not great.
They, you said the slow down tospeed up, the number of times
I've I might
Indra Klavins (12:15):
need to create a sticker for that too. Slow down
to speed up. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:19):
slow down to speed up. Right? Like you're
taking a step back. You'reassessing, you know, you're
assessing the processes andframeworks and relationships and
like, getting everyone on thesame page, so that when
something does break later on,you don't have to waste valuable
minutes explaining the thing100%
Indra Klavins (12:39):
and or when you do have to mess with somebody's
intrinsic or extrinsic motivemotivators, whichever they are,
you can have that post mortem. Ihate that phrase. Sorry. I'm
cringing at myself a little bit.But like after, after the thing
has happened, because you had todo it, and there was just, like,
(12:59):
there was no way around it. Youhad to do it quickly afterwards.
You can have you have to havethat conversation to say, Hey, I
acknowledge that my actionsmessed with your intrinsic or
your extrinsic motivators, or,you know, and that's just like a
really important thing. So let'sgo on to the harder one, which
is kind of where we get into theoutputs, kind of things, like
(13:22):
we're touching against outputson this one. But like, the
bigger it's not to me, it'sbigger because it's like, the
scale of it is usually bigger.It's usually organization wide,
and it's a little it'spolitically stickier. Is the
misalignment between the wordsthat leadership says and the
(13:44):
actions that they take in theheat of the moment.
Amanda Jane Lee (13:48):
Uh, huh,
Indra Klavins (13:50):
I could go know them, not less of words, but
yeah, it
Amanda Jane Lee (13:55):
is stickier. It is a little more politically,
political, political. What comesto mind is, you know, and I
think you and I have talkedabout how this could be its own
episode, so I'll just touch uponit, and then I'll walk away
(14:15):
company values, right? You cansay the company. Can say that
the company, you know, companyvalues include like
sustainability and liketechnical excellence,
Indra Klavins (14:29):
work life balance, work life balance.
Amanda Jane Lee (14:32):
But if bonuses, like the extrinsic incentives
are tied to quarterly revenue,right, what's the real priority
here?
Indra Klavins (14:42):
Right, right? And, and, no, I think this is
worth going into, because we'retalking not just about, I'm
going to go into it in a second,but it's about the incentives of
leadership, like, what doesleadership get measured and
rewarded on, versus what do.Their team members get measured
or more than one, and that'salso when there's a disconnect
(15:03):
between those two, likeextrinsic and extrinsic, then
there's a whole nother set ofproblems. But like the one that
comes to mind for me, that Ithink is, I think will be
familiar to a lot of people, isinnovation, innovation teams,
innovation. We're gonna have ablue sky project. We're gonna
rethink X, Y and Z and blah,blah, blah, blah, every single
time a next gen. And I knowthat's another set phrase that
(15:26):
will set off, like, for a lot ofpeople, because I don't know who
hasn't been touched by one ofthose in their in their career.
It's a, it's a, it's a.comphrase that I wish that would
just see an end. CNN, but, butwhenever there's like, this new
blue sky project that comes out,and everyone gets so excited,
and it gets everybody energized,and they show it at town halls,
(15:49):
and like, Yeah, we're gonna, youknow, we're gonna be different.
We're gonna disrupt blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, and they'll
come out with this vision, andthey'll come out with the whole
thing and the prototype andwhatever. And then when the
rubber hits the road, it's aboutbug fixes. It's about not being
able to migrate the code basefor X, Y and Z reasons, and
(16:09):
you're back to business as usualand like that is so
disorienting. It's such a scalefor anybody who bought into that
vision. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:21):
when, when you're talking about, like, the
vision I just imagine, like,innovation with, like, jazz
hands, right? It's next gen.It's innovative, um, and, yeah,
like, I'm trying to think ofhow, like, the different ways,
different companies that I'veworked with, different teams
(16:41):
have tried to prioritizeinnovation, and you're right at
the end of the day, it usuallyjust falls back into business as
usual, keeping the lights on,just ensuring that we have, you
know, a stable product, asopposed to, like, the most
innovative product. And
Indra Klavins (17:00):
it has to and it has, like, let's be very
honestly whenever. You know,just in case, this is useful for
anyone who's in a leadershiprole, or even if you're talking
to your peers, whenever anybodygets demoralized in those
scenarios, I'm like, I hear you.I totally understand your
frustration. I like to get paid,and I know you like to get paid
(17:21):
too, and I know that that'slike, not the most satisfying
answer on Earth, but that's theanswer. So we're gonna have to
worry about that. We need tokeep the lights on. We need to
keep everything money flowing.And then let's figure out how we
can carve out enough time orenergy, or how we can, like,
strategically pull in as much aswe can from this vision
innovation thing into our day today work, right? Like, so, like,
that's just a little tool andtactic for somebody who's trying
(17:42):
to somebody who's trying tomitigate the despondence that
can happen. It's a big word, butI feel like it can get to that
level when people arenavigating, because it's really,
it's really, really tough. AndI've, you know, I've navigated
this multiple times. Like,actually one of my like, most
when I go on interviews, one ofmy popular things that I talk
(18:04):
about is a project like thatwhere, like, the vision was sold
through, and then it was like,it couldn't deliver. And it's
like, how do you how do youreconcile this? And it was all
being done in the public eyetoo. So our clients noticed too.
Clients knew that fancy newthing was coming, but how do we
do it and still keep it allrunning and see, yeah, and
compliant. It's really hard.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:24):
It is. And you know, another tactic for for
those listening, could be towell, be tactical about it,
right, like you're
Indra Klavins (18:36):
a lot of the
Amanda Jane Lee (18:38):
squishiness and mismatch and misalignment comes
from. We're trying to take thisoverarching vision and actually
do something to execute on thatvision, right? But we've never
talked about how,
Indra Klavins (18:55):
yeah, and I think this is a different episode, but
it's reminding me of aparticular project that you and
I were in and we wereshepherding. It took two of us.
It took two of us from twodifferent angles to get this
group of folks to proceed withspeed and agility
Amanda Jane Lee (19:12):
right, taking, taking that vision and being
able to translate it into a setof steps. Actionable. Something
actionable. Yeah, totallysomething actionable, something
like an actual plan that peoplecan follow to start chipping
away at achieving this vision.
Indra Klavins (19:30):
Yep, not just some sizzle reel with fancy
music and whiz bang effects,right? You know, something
that's like, you know, I breakthis down this way, okay, today,
we're swapping out the logo.Tomorrow, we're swapping out the
button. We're going to do themicro service on the third
release, like, figure out allthat stuff, whatever it might
be. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (19:46):
right? Figure it out and figure out just like,
what does this mean on a day today basis, right? Does this
right? Does this mean, you know,a lot of a lot of teams. Try the
20% innovative time.
Indra Klavins (20:04):
I agree with that, like, or like,
conceptually, I agree with that.But
Amanda Jane Lee (20:08):
yes, but like, what does that actually mean?
What, 20% of what,
Indra Klavins (20:12):
and when, and wow, and all that's, you know,
it's, it's, you know, anotherway that this shows up in
places, and I'm, I have multipleworkplace examples of this is,
you know, let's say you are, youhave had all those
conversations. You arereconciled. You're figuring out
how to achieve this vision, and,quote, keep the lights on like
(20:33):
and how to make sure that peopledon't get burnt out on one set
of work or another work. Andyou're, you're, you're, you're
cooking, you're cooking withgas. And you're, you're, you're
running like a well oiledmachine, and then, and then a
high value client or customercomes in and said, Hey, I know
that your entire site isdesigned for people who love the
(20:54):
color blue, but I want it to begreen. I know your entire site
is developed for portrait, and Iwant it to be landscape or
whatever. I mean. I'm justtrying to figure out two
extreme, just hypotheticalexamples, and then the tail spin
that happens when high valueclients. So high value client
(21:17):
often talks to the CEO or thepresident or somebody on the
executive team, and that saidperson on the executive team,
who may or may not understandwhat it takes to get things
done, says high value. Clientsays they're going to leave. We
need to get this done next week.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:32):
We need to get this done yesterday.
Indra Klavins (21:35):
And then you're like, but the core values say
work, life, balance. The corevalues say we're focusing on
things, and we're not going toget distracted. Right? The core
values say,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:47):
right. The core values say, and our plan says,
and our quarterly like, are youjust throwing that all out the
window? Yes, yes, you are forfor this high value client that,
when they say jump, you say howhigh,
Indra Klavins (22:02):
and it's hot, it's so, you know, let's take
this from like, the leadershipperspective, like, I'm going to
call it the mid leadership. It'sthe messy middle matters for
mid, mid level leaders. Hello,not to say that others aren't
welcome, but I think that y'allare. You're a part of our sweet
spot. You're not the only peoplein our sweet spot. But you know,
if you are in that middle and itcascades down to you from your
(22:23):
VP or your director, dependingon where you're landing, like,
how do you cope? I mean, I thinkthat the this is where I do the
slow down to speed up, it mightmean an extra, like, few hours
that day where I stay late tofigure it out. So the next day I
can start running. So they can'treally slow the thing down,
because that will cause evenmore chaos. And that's, you
(22:45):
know, mess is one thing. Chaosis another. Come up with a plan
to figure out, how do youwhat's, what are they asking
for? What's reasonablyachievable, right? You know
you're going to have to Youcannot. You cannot, you cannot
proceed with your original planas you had. Like, that's the
reality. You need to acceptthat. But like, what can you
(23:06):
incorporate? How can youincorporate it, and how can you
do it in a way that's the that'sdisruptive to the least amount
of people like that, to me, isusually how I think about it,
when, when this mandate from Ialways call it an executive
mandate. Like, the executivemandate comes down and lands in
your lap. You're like, okay, andand then how you're gonna
(23:30):
communicate your team? Like, howare you going to tell them, hey,
guess what? Things are not goingto go to the way we wanted them
to. But we're gonna get throughthis together, right? But we're
gonna get through this together.And
Amanda Jane Lee (23:41):
I think it's also using your your management
clout, right position to Okay,we're gonna get through this
together, and then when we getthrough this, how do we figure
out a way to avoid this fromhappening again?
Indra Klavins (24:02):
I don't know if you can do that. I'll be honest.
I don't know. I don't know howeasy it is to, oh, it's not
easy. I would say it's I'd sayit's probably more possible to
happen less often. Okay, yeah,you're right. Not never
Amanda Jane Lee (24:22):
again. I know that's that's very wishful,
hopeful.
Indra Klavins (24:26):
Yes, let's audit with less with with less
emergency sirens going on, like,hey, and that's where the
Managing Up comes up, like, hey,we did this for you. You know,
you know, how do we? How do we,how do we get this so that it's
less disruptive next time,right? And I would say also, you
need to do the you need to finda way to make good by your team
(24:46):
that had to, had to just eatcrow. And just maybe that's not
the right metaphor, but like,just suck it up and and do the
thing that they didn'tnecessarily want to do. Like
that could be a happy hour. Thatcould be. A, you know, whatever
it might be, it might come outof your own personal pocket, if
you're a leader, you know,sometimes that is part of what
(25:07):
some of us do, you know, like,but find a workaby, it can do
also no cost ways, which isanother episode, probably, yeah,
yeah, yeah. Figure
Amanda Jane Lee (25:16):
out what, what incentivizes your team, right?
Like, what, what theirincentives are and what what
would make them happy,
Indra Klavins (25:23):
what's their release valve, right? Which is a
different version of anincentive, which is a different
version of incentive. So I thinkwe covered a lot of good ground
there. I think we covered a lotso Okay, so it's important for
us to understand each other'sintrinsic, extrinsic incentives,
and understood what outputspeople are being measured on
which ties to the extrinsicincentives, but understanding
(25:44):
that it's important to laygroundwork and build durable
relationships to help supportthe difficult conversations, and
it's important to have theconversations at the moment when
you recognize those disconnectsso that you can navigate through
(26:04):
that complexity together. Andit's not like where one side
always wins and the other onedoesn't any other things that I
missed.
Amanda Jane Lee (26:12):
No, I think that was a very eloquent way to
just like, sum it up, wrap itup.
Indra Klavins (26:20):
Sometimes I'm long on the words, sometimes I
get it right. All right,awesome. Well, thank you,
Amanda, for an awesomeconversation, and thank you to
everyone who listened. I hopeyou guys got something good out
of it, and I hope that you joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messymiddle. Bye everyone. Thanks for
(26:40):
taking time with us in the messymiddle word of mouth remains
most powerful way for people tofind us. If this episode sparked
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share it with someone else who'snavigating the in between. Do
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(27:02):
matters.com or in the shownotes. Thank you for joining us
on this journey. This work isbetter when we do it together,
until next time.
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today?
I'm good. How are you Indra?
I'm doing well, I'm doing welltoday we're having one of those
episodes where we're going tostart with definitions, because,
you know, one of the things thatwe hold true, it's from our
(00:31):
episode two, is that wordsmatter, and having shared
understanding of words mattersmore than anything. So a few
words for everybody who'slistening. So we're going to
talk, be talking about intrinsicincentives, extrinsic incentives
and outputs, and theintersection of those three so
intrinsic incentives, those arethe internal motivators, the
(00:53):
things that drive us becausethey feel meaningful, satisfying
or aligned with who we are. It'sthe fulfillment you get from
solving a complex problem,helping a teammate or doing work
that reflects your values, evenwhen no one's watching.
Extrinsic incentives are theexternal motivators, things like
money, promotions, praise oravoiding punishment, they're
(01:16):
about what you get or avoid fromthe outside world in exchange
for your effort. Last one isoutputs. Those are the tangible
things that a person or teamproduces, the visible results of
their work. That could be aproject, plan a code commit, a
campaign, launch a workshop, youdelivered a customer ticket that
got resolved. It's the what inwhat you create and when you
(01:39):
complete it. So those are ourwords for the day. And you know,
the reason that we're talkingabout this today is one of the
biggest challenges at work iswhen you know those three are
not aligned with each other. Itwas briefly mentioned in our
episode between the naturaltension between professional
growth and teams, Team loyaltyand those types of things,
(02:01):
right? And team cohesion, butthis is so prevalent across, you
know, any company that I've beena part of. So today we'll focus
on two areas. One is themisalignment of incentives
between departments, crafts orteams, and the other one is the
disconnect between what leaderssay and what they value and what
they ask people to do. So we gota whole lot of stuff there, so I
(02:25):
just gave a little bit of a justan outline of the framework of
what we're going to be talkingabout today. But Amanda, I'm
positive you're having areaction as I was reading those
words, I was feeling thereaction in myself too.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:41):
I feel like this. This could get a little
spicy, like the topic screamsconflict or misalignment, or
like a failure in quotes tocollaborate, or things just
aren't meshing, right? Thingsaren't meshing, and there's
(03:03):
tension. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (03:06):
exactly, exactly. And that tension may be, you may
be conscious of it, you mightnot be conscious of it. Like,
there's lots of different waysthat this manifests. So let's
talk about, like, the easierone, it's it's smaller, it's
easier to address, it's easierto talk about, and it's easier
to address, which is themisalignment between
departments, or disalignmentbetween teams, or dismissal
(03:27):
alignment between crafts. Like,I've got a I've got a perfect
story. So I was leading a UXdesign team, and I had a member
of my team who had this reallygreat idea on how she wanted the
design to proceed. And therewere all these really good
reasons as to why her idea wasvalid. And she came to me, she's
like, flustered and flummoxedand just beside herself. She's
(03:49):
like, I was talking to thesoftware engineer, and they, you
know, I told them what I wantedto do, and they didn't want to
do it. And she's like, how couldthey, like, as if it was some
sort of moral deficit on theirpart that they didn't see her
point, right? I said to her, Isaid, Hey, let's pause a second.
Do you so at that company thatwas working at we were getting
(04:11):
paid quarterly bonuses, soeveryone was very conscious of
what they were getting measuredon all the time. And I said to
her, I said, Have you thoughtabout what he gets measured on
for his quarterly bonus. Shegoes, No, I haven't. I said, Oh,
okay, great. Let's, let's, Idon't know either, because I'm
not in their department, butlet's, let, let's play pretend.
Let's pray pretend. And let mehypothesize that he is going to
(04:36):
get partially rewarded on thenumber of stories that he
delivers using the AgileFramework. You know, the number
of things that he's delivered,he is going to be incentivized
on, you know, number of releasesto production. He is going to be
incentivized on the lack ofdefects in his code, right?
Like, let's just go with thosethree. I said, Do you see how
your idea could be getting inthe way of him hitting his.
(05:00):
Quarterly targets and gettinghis quarterly bonus.
All right, so now let's come upwith a plan. Let's go up with a
plan to get what you want andnot mess with his bag, right?
Yeah, I think
Amanda Jane Lee (05:16):
it's yet another example of like, take a
step back, start from anempathetic place, right, put
yourself in that person's shoes,and maybe it'll click and make
sense 100%
Indra Klavins (05:29):
and and, like, in the workplace, it's so funny.
And I've, I've cut my teeth, orI've spent an awful lot of time
with either software engineersor UX designers and those the
associated crafts, and so likein in either of those fields,
it's remarkably, it's it'sstriking how often either one of
(05:50):
those sets of folks would saythe user would want, or like,
all this empathy for the user,which may or may not be
accurate, but let's assume, forthe sake of argument, that it's
accurate, right? They have allthis empathy for the user, but
forget to apply that same kindof thinking for their
colleagues.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:05):
It is as you were telling that story. Another
example that came to my mind wasthe and I've seen this, I think,
at every company that I'veworked with or worked at the
tension. Between the customersupport team and the engineering
(06:27):
team. Yes, the customer supportteam is usually measured on how
many tickets are resolved, howfast they're resolved. Like a
customer, you know, writes inand says, Hey, I found a bug. I
found a defect. Something's notworking. Can you fix it? And
it's usually on, like, up to theengineering team to go fix that
(06:50):
thing. But the engineering teamhas their set of priorities, and
they're just like, well, I'vealready been told that, like,
these are my top 10. Sorry, yourcustomer defect isn't on that.
I'm not working on it. Well,
Indra Klavins (07:05):
you're talking about extrinsic incentives of
what people get measured on.I'll give you an intrinsic one
that goes with that same type ofthing, call volume. Call volume,
if you're in a large company oreven a small company, if your
customer support team gets inflood of call volume from a
release, and they're not readyfor it. They were not briefed on
(07:26):
it. They don't have the talkingpoints on it. They weren't like
they're not ready to to to copewith that incoming feedback,
right, rightful or not, right?Because people don't like
change, let's be honest. But youknow, you don't deal with that,
you've got a different kind ofconflict, where intrinsic and
extrinsic, they just don't wantto have a headache all day long,
(07:47):
right? They don't want
Amanda Jane Lee (07:47):
the headache. They don't want to get burnt
out. They don't they don't wantto talk to this many customers a
day.
Indra Klavins (07:53):
No? I mean, they do, but not when they're all
seething at them. Okay, let metell you. I mean, so, I mean, I
think that in those scenarios, Ithink it's so important to and I
gave a talk on this years ago.It's so funny, I actually just
found it online again, like it'sbehind a paywall. I'm like, I
will figure out how to make Imight make it an episode so that
(08:14):
we can. I'll revisit the talk.But it's about understanding
somebody else's motivations,understanding somebody else's
origin stories, understanding,you know who they are, like,
what's their, what's their whatare they? What are they jazzed
about? What are they jazzedabout? And when you understand
that, and you also try andunderstand because you never
will really know what hits theirpocketbook like, or what impacts
(08:38):
their pocketbook, if you try andkeep those two things in mind
when you're working withsomebody else, or try and help
them understand yours, you're ina much better place, yeah?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:50):
And then it's putting that on the table,
right? And like, assessing it,and being able to, oh, like, now
that I know, or can assume,yeah, this is what everyone's
incentives are. Then you canlike, you'll realize, oh, where,
where is the misalignment? Isthe misalignment between us? Is
(09:12):
the misalignment between like,what's important to us is the
misalignment between us and whatleadership is telling us? Like,
where, where is the the frictionpoint?
Indra Klavins (09:24):
Yeah, and I know you have a lot of experience
with this one, like one of theor some of the teams that have
the most friction with everyonein an organization, legal,
compliance, InfoSec, anybodywho's trying to keep the company
safe and out of litigation andstate, physically stable,
(09:46):
technically stable,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:48):
like the more like, operational pieces, yeah,
organization, yeah,
Indra Klavins (09:53):
yeah. Cuz I'm like, I just, I just think about
like, so for me, I think I'vehad more experience with, like,
the legal and compliance.Inside. I think that you've had
more experience with like thesecurity teams like in this that
like engineering wants to do X,whether it's pushing code,
getting a piece of software,whatever
Amanda Jane Lee (10:12):
like and right. And a lot of engineering teams
don't have security don't havethe security team and the
securities, the security teamsrequirements top of mind. I'm
not saying that engineeringteams are like, No, screw
security
Indra Klavins (10:27):
because, because they don't want to get woken up
at two o'clock in the morningwhen there's a security breach,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:32):
right? But it's not the most top of mind when,
especially when you're trying toship something fast, right?
Indra Klavins (10:39):
And your product person is like, I have to, I
have to, I have to, you have to,or else, you know, rah, rah,
rah, rah, the sky is falling.Like, insecurities, like, you
know, you're going to bring downthe whole infrastructure in the
process, right, right? Like, has
Amanda Jane Lee (10:51):
anybody taken a look at what you're trying to do
and assess the security risk ofthis new product or feature? And
sometimes the answer is no, andthen, like, everybody gets upset
because it's a slowdown right?
Indra Klavins (11:07):
Well, but what they don't realize is that if
you're proactive and you'reslowed down, and I know you know
this, if you slow down and areproactive in those
conversations, you have themearly, or you have them
strategically, or you buildthose relationships so that when
something comes from, like from,from left field, and you need to
do it right away, you know thatthere's some, there's a fair bit
(11:27):
of risk to it, you can, you canget that conversation moving a
lot more quickly. So it's like,it's the slow down to speed up
kind of thing. Like, you got toslow down build the foundation,
whether it's for that particularproject or for just like that
more durable relationshipoverall, so that you can start
flowing things through and bringthem into the process at the
(11:47):
right times, like they don'twant to stop you, because that
gives them addict they theydon't want to be they don't want
to hear your griping the sameway a call center doesn't want
to hear customers griping,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:55):
right? That's their intrinsic motivation,
right? Exactly,
Indra Klavins (12:00):
exactly. They don't want
Amanda Jane Lee (12:01):
to argue with you. No, it's, it's not great.
They, you said the slow down tospeed up, the number of times
I've I might
Indra Klavins (12:15):
need to create a sticker for that too. Slow down
to speed up. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:19):
slow down to speed up. Right? Like you're
taking a step back. You'reassessing, you know, you're
assessing the processes andframeworks and relationships and
like, getting everyone on thesame page, so that when
something does break later on,you don't have to waste valuable
minutes explaining the thing100%
Indra Klavins (12:39):
and or when you do have to mess with somebody's
intrinsic or extrinsic motivemotivators, whichever they are,
you can have that post mortem. Ihate that phrase. Sorry. I'm
cringing at myself a little bit.But like after, after the thing
has happened, because you had todo it, and there was just, like,
(12:59):
there was no way around it. Youhad to do it quickly afterwards.
You can have you have to havethat conversation to say, Hey, I
acknowledge that my actionsmessed with your intrinsic or
your extrinsic motivators, or,you know, and that's just like a
really important thing. So let'sgo on to the harder one, which
is kind of where we get into theoutputs, kind of things, like
(13:22):
we're touching against outputson this one. But like, the
bigger it's not to me, it'sbigger because it's like, the
scale of it is usually bigger.It's usually organization wide,
and it's a little it'spolitically stickier. Is the
misalignment between the wordsthat leadership says and the
(13:44):
actions that they take in theheat of the moment.
Amanda Jane Lee (13:48):
Uh, huh,
Indra Klavins (13:50):
I could go know them, not less of words, but
yeah, it
Amanda Jane Lee (13:55):
is stickier. It is a little more politically,
political, political. What comesto mind is, you know, and I
think you and I have talkedabout how this could be its own
episode, so I'll just touch uponit, and then I'll walk away
(14:15):
company values, right? You cansay the company. Can say that
the company, you know, companyvalues include like
sustainability and liketechnical excellence,
Indra Klavins (14:29):
work life balance, work life balance.
Amanda Jane Lee (14:32):
But if bonuses, like the extrinsic incentives
are tied to quarterly revenue,right, what's the real priority
here?
Indra Klavins (14:42):
Right, right? And, and, no, I think this is
worth going into, because we'retalking not just about, I'm
going to go into it in a second,but it's about the incentives of
leadership, like, what doesleadership get measured and
rewarded on, versus what do.Their team members get measured
or more than one, and that'salso when there's a disconnect
(15:03):
between those two, likeextrinsic and extrinsic, then
there's a whole nother set ofproblems. But like the one that
comes to mind for me, that Ithink is, I think will be
familiar to a lot of people, isinnovation, innovation teams,
innovation. We're gonna have ablue sky project. We're gonna
rethink X, Y and Z and blah,blah, blah, blah, every single
time a next gen. And I knowthat's another set phrase that
(15:26):
will set off, like, for a lot ofpeople, because I don't know who
hasn't been touched by one ofthose in their in their career.
It's a, it's a, it's a.comphrase that I wish that would
just see an end. CNN, but, butwhenever there's like, this new
blue sky project that comes out,and everyone gets so excited,
and it gets everybody energized,and they show it at town halls,
(15:49):
and like, Yeah, we're gonna, youknow, we're gonna be different.
We're gonna disrupt blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, and they'll
come out with this vision, andthey'll come out with the whole
thing and the prototype andwhatever. And then when the
rubber hits the road, it's aboutbug fixes. It's about not being
able to migrate the code basefor X, Y and Z reasons, and
(16:09):
you're back to business as usualand like that is so
disorienting. It's such a scalefor anybody who bought into that
vision. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:21):
when, when you're talking about, like, the
vision I just imagine, like,innovation with, like, jazz
hands, right? It's next gen.It's innovative, um, and, yeah,
like, I'm trying to think ofhow, like, the different ways,
different companies that I'veworked with, different teams
(16:41):
have tried to prioritizeinnovation, and you're right at
the end of the day, it usuallyjust falls back into business as
usual, keeping the lights on,just ensuring that we have, you
know, a stable product, asopposed to, like, the most
innovative product. And
Indra Klavins (17:00):
it has to and it has, like, let's be very
honestly whenever. You know,just in case, this is useful for
anyone who's in a leadershiprole, or even if you're talking
to your peers, whenever anybodygets demoralized in those
scenarios, I'm like, I hear you.I totally understand your
frustration. I like to get paid,and I know you like to get paid
(17:21):
too, and I know that that'slike, not the most satisfying
answer on Earth, but that's theanswer. So we're gonna have to
worry about that. We need tokeep the lights on. We need to
keep everything money flowing.And then let's figure out how we
can carve out enough time orenergy, or how we can, like,
strategically pull in as much aswe can from this vision
innovation thing into our day today work, right? Like, so, like,
that's just a little tool andtactic for somebody who's trying
(17:42):
to somebody who's trying tomitigate the despondence that
can happen. It's a big word, butI feel like it can get to that
level when people arenavigating, because it's really,
it's really, really tough. AndI've, you know, I've navigated
this multiple times. Like,actually one of my like, most
when I go on interviews, one ofmy popular things that I talk
(18:04):
about is a project like thatwhere, like, the vision was sold
through, and then it was like,it couldn't deliver. And it's
like, how do you how do youreconcile this? And it was all
being done in the public eyetoo. So our clients noticed too.
Clients knew that fancy newthing was coming, but how do we
do it and still keep it allrunning and see, yeah, and
compliant. It's really hard.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:24):
It is. And you know, another tactic for for
those listening, could be towell, be tactical about it,
right, like you're
Indra Klavins (18:36):
a lot of the
Amanda Jane Lee (18:38):
squishiness and mismatch and misalignment comes
from. We're trying to take thisoverarching vision and actually
do something to execute on thatvision, right? But we've never
talked about how,
Indra Klavins (18:55):
yeah, and I think this is a different episode, but
it's reminding me of aparticular project that you and
I were in and we wereshepherding. It took two of us.
It took two of us from twodifferent angles to get this
group of folks to proceed withspeed and agility
Amanda Jane Lee (19:12):
right, taking, taking that vision and being
able to translate it into a setof steps. Actionable. Something
actionable. Yeah, totallysomething actionable, something
like an actual plan that peoplecan follow to start chipping
away at achieving this vision.
Indra Klavins (19:30):
Yep, not just some sizzle reel with fancy
music and whiz bang effects,right? You know, something
that's like, you know, I breakthis down this way, okay, today,
we're swapping out the logo.Tomorrow, we're swapping out the
button. We're going to do themicro service on the third
release, like, figure out allthat stuff, whatever it might
be. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (19:46):
right? Figure it out and figure out just like,
what does this mean on a day today basis, right? Does this
right? Does this mean, you know,a lot of a lot of teams. Try the
20% innovative time.
Indra Klavins (20:04):
I agree with that, like, or like,
conceptually, I agree with that.But
Amanda Jane Lee (20:08):
yes, but like, what does that actually mean?
What, 20% of what,
Indra Klavins (20:12):
and when, and wow, and all that's, you know,
it's, it's, you know, anotherway that this shows up in
places, and I'm, I have multipleworkplace examples of this is,
you know, let's say you are, youhave had all those
conversations. You arereconciled. You're figuring out
how to achieve this vision, and,quote, keep the lights on like
(20:33):
and how to make sure that peopledon't get burnt out on one set
of work or another work. Andyou're, you're, you're, you're
cooking, you're cooking withgas. And you're, you're, you're
running like a well oiledmachine, and then, and then a
high value client or customercomes in and said, Hey, I know
that your entire site isdesigned for people who love the
(20:54):
color blue, but I want it to begreen. I know your entire site
is developed for portrait, and Iwant it to be landscape or
whatever. I mean. I'm justtrying to figure out two
extreme, just hypotheticalexamples, and then the tail spin
that happens when high valueclients. So high value client
(21:17):
often talks to the CEO or thepresident or somebody on the
executive team, and that saidperson on the executive team,
who may or may not understandwhat it takes to get things
done, says high value. Clientsays they're going to leave. We
need to get this done next week.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:32):
We need to get this done yesterday.
Indra Klavins (21:35):
And then you're like, but the core values say
work, life, balance. The corevalues say we're focusing on
things, and we're not going toget distracted. Right? The core
values say,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:47):
right. The core values say, and our plan says,
and our quarterly like, are youjust throwing that all out the
window? Yes, yes, you are forfor this high value client that,
when they say jump, you say howhigh,
Indra Klavins (22:02):
and it's hot, it's so, you know, let's take
this from like, the leadershipperspective, like, I'm going to
call it the mid leadership. It'sthe messy middle matters for
mid, mid level leaders. Hello,not to say that others aren't
welcome, but I think that y'allare. You're a part of our sweet
spot. You're not the only peoplein our sweet spot. But you know,
if you are in that middle and itcascades down to you from your
(22:23):
VP or your director, dependingon where you're landing, like,
how do you cope? I mean, I thinkthat the this is where I do the
slow down to speed up, it mightmean an extra, like, few hours
that day where I stay late tofigure it out. So the next day I
can start running. So they can'treally slow the thing down,
because that will cause evenmore chaos. And that's, you
(22:45):
know, mess is one thing. Chaosis another. Come up with a plan
to figure out, how do youwhat's, what are they asking
for? What's reasonablyachievable, right? You know
you're going to have to Youcannot. You cannot, you cannot
proceed with your original planas you had. Like, that's the
reality. You need to acceptthat. But like, what can you
(23:06):
incorporate? How can youincorporate it, and how can you
do it in a way that's the that'sdisruptive to the least amount
of people like that, to me, isusually how I think about it,
when, when this mandate from Ialways call it an executive
mandate. Like, the executivemandate comes down and lands in
your lap. You're like, okay, andand then how you're gonna
(23:30):
communicate your team? Like, howare you going to tell them, hey,
guess what? Things are not goingto go to the way we wanted them
to. But we're gonna get throughthis together, right? But we're
gonna get through this together.And
Amanda Jane Lee (23:41):
I think it's also using your your management
clout, right position to Okay,we're gonna get through this
together, and then when we getthrough this, how do we figure
out a way to avoid this fromhappening again?
Indra Klavins (24:02):
I don't know if you can do that. I'll be honest.
I don't know. I don't know howeasy it is to, oh, it's not
easy. I would say it's I'd sayit's probably more possible to
happen less often. Okay, yeah,you're right. Not never
Amanda Jane Lee (24:22):
again. I know that's that's very wishful,
hopeful.
Indra Klavins (24:26):
Yes, let's audit with less with with less
emergency sirens going on, like,hey, and that's where the
Managing Up comes up, like, hey,we did this for you. You know,
you know, how do we? How do we,how do we get this so that it's
less disruptive next time,right? And I would say also, you
need to do the you need to finda way to make good by your team
(24:46):
that had to, had to just eatcrow. And just maybe that's not
the right metaphor, but like,just suck it up and and do the
thing that they didn'tnecessarily want to do. Like
that could be a happy hour. Thatcould be. A, you know, whatever
it might be, it might come outof your own personal pocket, if
you're a leader, you know,sometimes that is part of what
(25:07):
some of us do, you know, like,but find a workaby, it can do
also no cost ways, which isanother episode, probably, yeah,
yeah, yeah. Figure
Amanda Jane Lee (25:16):
out what, what incentivizes your team, right?
Like, what, what theirincentives are and what what
would make them happy,
Indra Klavins (25:23):
what's their release valve, right? Which is a
different version of anincentive, which is a different
version of incentive. So I thinkwe covered a lot of good ground
there. I think we covered a lotso Okay, so it's important for
us to understand each other'sintrinsic, extrinsic incentives,
and understood what outputspeople are being measured on
which ties to the extrinsicincentives, but understanding
(25:44):
that it's important to laygroundwork and build durable
relationships to help supportthe difficult conversations, and
it's important to have theconversations at the moment when
you recognize those disconnectsso that you can navigate through
(26:04):
that complexity together. Andit's not like where one side
always wins and the other onedoesn't any other things that I
missed.
Amanda Jane Lee (26:12):
No, I think that was a very eloquent way to
just like, sum it up, wrap itup.
Indra Klavins (26:20):
Sometimes I'm long on the words, sometimes I
get it right. All right,awesome. Well, thank you,
Amanda, for an awesomeconversation, and thank you to
everyone who listened. I hopeyou guys got something good out
of it, and I hope that you joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messymiddle. Bye everyone. Thanks for
(26:40):
taking time with us in the messymiddle word of mouth remains
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share it with someone else who'snavigating the in between. Do
you have ideas for futureepisodes or topics you'd like us
to explore? You can find ourfeedback form at the messymiddle
(27:02):
matters.com or in the shownotes. Thank you for joining us
on this journey. This work isbetter when we do it together,
until next time.
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