September 10, 2025 • 19 mins
In this episode, Indra and Amanda explore the difference between influence and authority and why mastering influence is essential for most people at work. While authority comes with titles and structure, influence is often how real change happens: through relationships, trust, and timing.
They share personal stories of leading without formal power, the subtle art of planting seeds and letting ideas take root, and strategies for shifting mindsets and behavior over time. Whether you’re driving change from the middle or navigating a complex org, this episode offers practical tips for using influence to get things done—without steamrolling anyone in the process.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda. How areyou today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:18):
I'm good. How are you Indra?
Indra Klavins (00:19):
I'm doing well. I'm doing well today we're going
to talk a little bit about ourcareer progression in an
indirect way, because you and Iboth came of age professionally
in roles that had very littleauthority but required people to
get things done, which meantthat you had to rely on
influence an awful lot andgetting people to even though
(00:42):
you had no like said, you know,authority over them. Let's do
some definitions so that weunderstand what we're talking
about and then jump right in. Soauthority is the formal power
granted by a role or title, theability to make decisions,
allocate resources or directothers based on organizational
(01:02):
structure. People with authoritylead because they can influence
is the ability to shapeoutcomes, decisions or behaviors
without formal power throughrelationships, expertise, trust
or communication. People withinfluence lead because others
choose to follow them. And thereality is, I think that most
(01:23):
people have to rely so much ontheir influence, not authority,
because, you know, if you thinkabout an organization and how
it's structured, the people withthe most authority are at the
top of the pyramid. Peoplealways use that pyramid example
as for good reason, right?Because CEOs at top, and then,
(01:43):
you know, the seniority cascadesdown from there. So so many of
us, even if they have authority,if we have authority, we have to
rely on our influence to getthings done. It's pretty
remarkable. It's prettyremarkable how important that
skill is.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:00):
Yeah, you, you know, you said the
organizational pyramid. I thinkthe the easiest example of
authority versus influence is ifyou are a direct manager of a
team, you have authority overthe people who report directly
to you, yeah, whereas you couldbe the manager of a team, but
you don't manage people onanother team, so you need to
(02:23):
influence that other team to getthings done.
Indra Klavins (02:26):
Yes, yes. And when you've gotten it right, and
I like, I giggle every singletime this happens to me, when I
when you get it right, is whenpeople start coming to you, not
their people manager, not anyonewho has the real authority and
asks you for permission to dothings like, Can I do this in X,
Y and Z? I'm like, that. I'mlike, I'm not the person who
(02:47):
gets to make that decision. Butthat sounds great to me, or like
I wouldn't do that if I was.When you're that person, you're
like, oh, influence unlocked.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:58):
Sure. Like, sure. I don't know that I could
explicitly give you permissionto go do that, but yeah, sure
that that sounds like a goodidea. Sounds like a good idea.
Indra Klavins (03:09):
So I think that there's, there's lots of the
metaphor that you know is one ofmy favorite. I think it's one of
your favorites too, is theplanting of seeds and watering
them like so, differentscenarios, different ideas,
different concepts, differentchange management requires or
different incentivizationrequires different tactics. But
(03:31):
like, planting of seeds andwatering them is one of my
personal favorites, whether it'sI drop a phrase in a meeting and
just like, just leave it anddon't pay attention to it,
because I know that they'll getscared. Like, the idea by by
hearing if I say it too loud,or, you know, and then
mentioning it over and overagain, like for three successive
weeks, and people like, hey, youknow, we should do this thing
(03:52):
where we're planting sunflowers.You don't say sunflowers. I
don't know where that idea camefrom. Like, that's my, one of my
favorite, really indirect waysof showing influence. I don't
know what others you know if youwant to add to that one, if you
have others that you might wantto add to the mix,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:09):
yeah, for me, it's, it's leading by example.
It's like, what comes to mindfor me is, I'll join an
organization that has a lot ofmeetings on the calendar that
don't have any agendas, thatdon't have a clear purpose.
Yeah, and I will start, when Istart scheduling my own
(04:31):
meetings, I list out a verydetailed agenda here, here's the
purpose, here's the audience,here's here's the agenda. Here's
what we're going to cover.Here's what the the desired
outputs are. And I'll justcontinuously like, do that, and
people usually catch on,
Indra Klavins (04:53):
yeah, being, being super helpful when it
comes to like, I would put a lotof that, not all of it, but a
lot of that, into the cat.Degree of glue work. When you
start doing that little gluework, that invisible work that
helps the teams move forward andwork really effectively, and
it's not part of your jobdescription, right? When you do
something that you're not, thatthey know you're not getting
(05:14):
measured on, it builds so muchgoodwill. It's so much and the
dividends you reap from that areare unexpected and
disproportionate with that. Likeyou gotta, you gotta walk a
line, and it's a differentepisode about walking the line
of where you and we've done thatbefore, but like you that plant
that, doing of those littlethings for people, bringing in
(05:35):
the chocolate, hey, I brought indonuts,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:39):
right? It's building trust, right? It's
building trust. You saidgoodwill. It's building
goodwill. It's, it's remainingconsistent, right? Like, going
back to the watering the seedmetaphor, it's, it's continually
watering that seed that youplanted.
Indra Klavins (05:57):
Yeah, yeah. And, like, I think that not every
tactic works all the time. Thereason that I like the whole
seed example, least for mybrain, you know, is I try a lot
of little things. And like, Iit's not completely like
buckshot, where there's thingsabsolutely everywhere and it's
completely random spaghettiagainst the wall, but there are,
(06:17):
like, lots of little microexperiments that I read. I'm
like, What's going to hit andwhat's going to get the traction
that I needed to get so that Ican get my agenda advanced.
Because, let's face it, we'veall got agendas at work. Let's
not kid ourselves you don'tthink you have an agenda. That's
a that's you got some reflectionto self reflection to do,
because the very least, you wantto get paid. But yeah, run a lot
(06:41):
of those little microexperiments and say, you know,
hey, like which, oh, that, Oh,they responded well to that one.
Okay, let me do more of that orless of the other thing. Yeah,
it's a
Amanda Jane Lee (06:53):
tactic that I like to use is, Hey, have we
thought about trying this, orhave we thought about doing this
thing this way, like, no, okay,can we try it just once if it
sucks, like we don't have tocontinue doing it right?
Indra Klavins (07:11):
What I love about that type of phrasing, and that
phrasing specifically too, isthat it invites conversation,
and it also invites somebodywith authority to come in and
say, I think that's a greatidea. Let me take this seed that
Amanda threw out there with thisin the form of a question, and
(07:31):
now I with authority, I'm goingto come in and I'm going to say,
let's pursue this and let's trythis out. Or with authority,
they might be able to say, hey,we tried that three years ago,
and it failed for X, Y and Zreasons. These conditions have
changed, but these ones haven't.So I don't know if we want to
try that again, right? Like, Oh,okay. Like, but that invites the
(07:52):
conversation, and that allows toallows you to collect more
information, that then allowsyou to have a larger resource
pool when you're trying to exudeinfluence in a situation
Amanda Jane Lee (08:05):
that is such a good point, you know, part of
the a potential strategy couldbe to as An influencer, to
influencer,
Indra Klavins (08:17):
not like a corporate influencer. It's
corporate
Amanda Jane Lee (08:23):
influencer, but as an influence, as an
influencer, to invite someonewith authority to to be that
voice of authority at the tableto like boost your your
influencing seeds.
Indra Klavins (08:43):
Yes, or if you can, and like, that's what the
authority the other one, if youdon't have access to that,
because you know, executives orpeople with authority are being
pulled in 50 differentdirections, and their time is
sometimes hard to get. Who canyou elevate from a different
team, or from your own team,even as well. Like, if you lead
people, but who can you elevateto champion this thing and bring
(09:04):
it forward and let them shineand help to shine the spotlight
on them? Like, that's alsobecause what'll happen is a that
person who's being elevated andsupported while they're being
elevated, because you're thereto help support them, is going
to remember that the people whoknow that person, who see you,
elevating this person they likeand respect is going to see that
(09:25):
and build your your goodwill andyour trust and your influence,
and it's just going to cascadethe ripples you can get from
something like that. So, like,you can either take the I love
the idea of bringing in thatexecutive and like, say, hey, I
need you for 15 minutes for x, yand z, this is the reason, but,
and that'll help you move thingsforward, or you can go the other
way, or from this, there's lotsof different ways you can use
(09:47):
that tactic. I love
Amanda Jane Lee (09:48):
that. You brought that up, yeah, it's the,
it's, it's, you said, ripple andcascade. It's like, well, you
know, I don't know, for example.I don't know your friend,
Shelly, right, but I know andtrust you, Indra, yeah. And if
you trust Shelley, I'm gonnatrust Shelley.
Indra Klavins (10:11):
Yes, yes. And I think that the one thing that we
all need to be really carefulwhen we're doing this like this
cannot be you need to proceedwith this with a true like true
selfless intentions or truegreater good intentions, or else
it's going to be perceived andit might actually be
(10:34):
manipulation of people, becausemanipulation and they have
similar there's similaritiesbetween the behaviors, but the
intention behind doing thisstuff gives you a completely
different read and completelydifferent results, right? If you
Amanda Jane Lee (10:50):
come at this with, I want to progress
something for the greater good,right? For for the to get the
thing done,
Indra Klavins (11:01):
our shared objectives,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:02):
absolutely share goals, right? Like we
it'll, it'll come off a lotbetter
Indra Klavins (11:09):
then I'm trying to elevate myself, myself,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:12):
right? Or I'm trying to push my own personal
agenda 100%
Indra Klavins (11:17):
100% like, and so, you know, it's, it's really,
it's really important to that.And the other thing is
influence, authority can beexerted in that moment at that
time, and get results in thatmoment. Influence, it's a much
longer game. It's a much, much,much longer game depending and
(11:39):
sometimes you need to be moreauthoritative, because there is
a deadline you need to remindpeople of things and etc, etc.
But like, influence is the longgame. It's about building those
durable relationships. It'sabout building like you're
saying, building that trust.It's about, it's and it's about
people remembering things like,when, gosh, I'll say TD
Ameritrade, it took two like, Iwas always say, like, from the i
(12:01):
The moment that my team had anidea, to when it would actually,
like, catch fire, it was twoyears. It was two years I
clocked it somewhere early, and,like, they're like, oh my gosh,
your number is right. I'm like,I know my number is right. It
takes two years, and that'sokay. And that's the speed at
which this organization works.And that's fine, because change,
(12:21):
because what my team wasadvocating for was change, and
change is really hard,especially when you're in a
complex organization, right? Youknow, like, we could do things
really quickly when we had to,but, like, some of the stuff
that we were championing for wasnot the stuff that was going to
make to the top of the list,right? Not immediately. It
wasn't the value wasn'tinherently clear for folks. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:42):
right? There's a whole change management cycle,
right? It like, not everything.I would say most things don't
happen overnight. Like, whatcomes to mind is a like, a
culture change, right? Justsomething as simple as So, an
organization that I work withdoes a water cooler Wednesdays
(13:03):
question, right? And I thinkwhen, when it first started,
there wasn't a lot ofengagement, yeah, like a few
people, and I think showing upconsistently every Wednesday,
right? With this question of,like, trying to get to know your
co workers better, and justlike, have it, having a little
bit of banter and levity in yourday showing up consistently, and
(13:28):
like showing the value of havingthis ritual made it become a
thing that people look forwardto now. But it didn't happen
overnight. It happened over thecourse of time, every Wednesday,
for however long it took forpeople to really buy in and be
like, Oh, I'm actually reallyexcited for the question on
(13:49):
Wednesday now,
Indra Klavins (13:49):
yeah, it's like, I love that you, that you, you
went there. It's because I'mpart of I'm part of community.
I'm part of a community ofcommunity builders. And shout
out to fabric. And some of thestuff that they talk about all
the time is how it's aboutshowing up consistently and
(14:10):
authentically. Like, those arethe things that build the trust.
And when people see, I love yourstory, when people see that you
showed up with consistency,like, maybe the first time
you'll have two people show up,maybe you'll have three people
show up, maybe the fourth timeyou'll have one person show up.
But when they maybe the fourthtime they like, suddenly have 15
people. They're like, Oh, she'sreally committed to this.
(14:30):
Because in organizations, thenumber of times somebody starts
something like a water coolerWednesday, and it's like, we're
starting a new series, and yousee a series of one, right? And
it's just like, womp. Womp. Itnever happens again. Like nobody
believes it until they see thatthere is that consistency in in
you, in the way you're talkingabout things, in the way that
you operate, and then the thingsthat you're doing when they see
(14:52):
that. And then, if you're like,maybe water cooler Wednesday
doesn't work out. You're like,Hey guys, tried water cooler
Wednesday didn't work out. You.Abandoning that one, not
because, you know, like, I don'tlike the idea. It's just clearly
not catching on. So we're gonnamove on to something else that
actually builds trust and plantsa different seed for the trust
that gives you the influencelater, right, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (15:12):
And you know, you don't have to, using the
water cooler Wednesday'sexample. Again, you don't have
to show up in the same exact wayevery time, right? Like going
back to your micro experiments,right? You can, you can adjust,
you can iterate. You can, likeshift. You could shift the the
(15:34):
format of the questions. You canshift the the type of question
you ask. You can shift, youknow, you can shift all kinds of
things to figure out
Indra Klavins (15:42):
what does work you don't want, right? You
wouldn't and you wouldn't. Ithink that people would react
terribly, actually, if it wasabsolutely consistent every
single time, because that feelslike it's phoned in. It feels
templated, it feels sterile. Itfeels like you don't want. It
completely, drasticallydifferent, because that's too
much, right? But like, hey,trying out this work. This
(16:04):
didn't work. Like, let's keep,let's keep the good and, yeah,
introduce it and let go of thethings that weren't as good. So,
yeah, yeah, as someone whosuccessfully grew some things in
an actual garden in the backyardthis year, it just goes back to
the whole planting, a seed,watering the seed. If
(16:24):
something's not working,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:26):
move the plant, or like, shade the plant, or
like, maybe water it more, maybewater it less. Like, just do
those, those little experimentsto to figure out what works,
what doesn't work, and and tocontinue to continue watering
that plant and eventually reapthe benefits of it, right? 100%
Indra Klavins (16:49):
I think that the the the word that came to mind,
as you're talking about that,is, pay attention. Pay
attention. Yeah, I mean, I, we
Amanda Jane Lee (16:57):
had friends over last night, and, you know,
they, they're very into, intoplants, right? Yeah. And I was
like, our tomatoes aren't doingso well, like, what's wrong? And
they were able to, like,diagnose the problem, suggest
some adjustment levels. And sowe're gonna go, we're gonna go
(17:19):
out of the store and get somesome vitamins. I think it was
like, I think phosphorus was thething. Like, they're,
Indra Klavins (17:27):
they're, they're, they're not out to phosphorus.
The
Amanda Jane Lee (17:31):
tomatoes are not getting all the nutrients
they need, right? But it's, it'sone of those things where, like,
the the light is great. Thewatering is great, but there's
just something that's not right.
Indra Klavins (17:45):
And all you have over those tomatoes is
influence. They're going to dowhat they're going to do, how
they're going to do it, justlike humans, they're going to do
what they're going to do, howthey're going to do it. And no
matter what you try and forcethem to do, people or tomatoes,
you can't. You can't at acertain point, there's a even
(18:06):
with authority, there's,there's, there's a threshold
that you hit, and you still needinfluence when you have
authority,
Amanda Jane Lee (18:12):
people are tomatoes. Is my takeaway from
Indra Klavins (18:15):
this. Okay with that. We have to call it. I
think we got to call it anepisode. I don't know how you
follow that one up anyway, soeveryone you know, try things
out. You know, build good builda good reputation. Be consistent
and treat people like tomatoes.Question mark. Amanda, thank you
(18:37):
for a delightful episode. I hopethat everyone who is listening
got something out of this,whether it's it's some a nugget
that they can apply, or theyfeel like they've been seen a
little bit. And I hope you alljoin us next time for another
topic from the messy middle
Amanda Jane Lee (18:51):
Bye, bye.
Indra Klavins (18:57):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
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(19:17):
feedback form at the messymiddlematters.com or in the show
notes, thank you for joining uson this journey. This work is
better when we do it together,until next time.
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda. How areyou today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:18):
I'm good. How are you Indra?
Indra Klavins (00:19):
I'm doing well. I'm doing well today we're going
to talk a little bit about ourcareer progression in an
indirect way, because you and Iboth came of age professionally
in roles that had very littleauthority but required people to
get things done, which meantthat you had to rely on
influence an awful lot andgetting people to even though
(00:42):
you had no like said, you know,authority over them. Let's do
some definitions so that weunderstand what we're talking
about and then jump right in. Soauthority is the formal power
granted by a role or title, theability to make decisions,
allocate resources or directothers based on organizational
(01:02):
structure. People with authoritylead because they can influence
is the ability to shapeoutcomes, decisions or behaviors
without formal power throughrelationships, expertise, trust
or communication. People withinfluence lead because others
choose to follow them. And thereality is, I think that most
(01:23):
people have to rely so much ontheir influence, not authority,
because, you know, if you thinkabout an organization and how
it's structured, the people withthe most authority are at the
top of the pyramid. Peoplealways use that pyramid example
as for good reason, right?Because CEOs at top, and then,
(01:43):
you know, the seniority cascadesdown from there. So so many of
us, even if they have authority,if we have authority, we have to
rely on our influence to getthings done. It's pretty
remarkable. It's prettyremarkable how important that
skill is.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:00):
Yeah, you, you know, you said the
organizational pyramid. I thinkthe the easiest example of
authority versus influence is ifyou are a direct manager of a
team, you have authority overthe people who report directly
to you, yeah, whereas you couldbe the manager of a team, but
you don't manage people onanother team, so you need to
(02:23):
influence that other team to getthings done.
Indra Klavins (02:26):
Yes, yes. And when you've gotten it right, and
I like, I giggle every singletime this happens to me, when I
when you get it right, is whenpeople start coming to you, not
their people manager, not anyonewho has the real authority and
asks you for permission to dothings like, Can I do this in X,
Y and Z? I'm like, that. I'mlike, I'm not the person who
(02:47):
gets to make that decision. Butthat sounds great to me, or like
I wouldn't do that if I was.When you're that person, you're
like, oh, influence unlocked.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:58):
Sure. Like, sure. I don't know that I could
explicitly give you permissionto go do that, but yeah, sure
that that sounds like a goodidea. Sounds like a good idea.
Indra Klavins (03:09):
So I think that there's, there's lots of the
metaphor that you know is one ofmy favorite. I think it's one of
your favorites too, is theplanting of seeds and watering
them like so, differentscenarios, different ideas,
different concepts, differentchange management requires or
different incentivizationrequires different tactics. But
(03:31):
like, planting of seeds andwatering them is one of my
personal favorites, whether it'sI drop a phrase in a meeting and
just like, just leave it anddon't pay attention to it,
because I know that they'll getscared. Like, the idea by by
hearing if I say it too loud,or, you know, and then
mentioning it over and overagain, like for three successive
weeks, and people like, hey, youknow, we should do this thing
(03:52):
where we're planting sunflowers.You don't say sunflowers. I
don't know where that idea camefrom. Like, that's my, one of my
favorite, really indirect waysof showing influence. I don't
know what others you know if youwant to add to that one, if you
have others that you might wantto add to the mix,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:09):
yeah, for me, it's, it's leading by example.
It's like, what comes to mindfor me is, I'll join an
organization that has a lot ofmeetings on the calendar that
don't have any agendas, thatdon't have a clear purpose.
Yeah, and I will start, when Istart scheduling my own
(04:31):
meetings, I list out a verydetailed agenda here, here's the
purpose, here's the audience,here's here's the agenda. Here's
what we're going to cover.Here's what the the desired
outputs are. And I'll justcontinuously like, do that, and
people usually catch on,
Indra Klavins (04:53):
yeah, being, being super helpful when it
comes to like, I would put a lotof that, not all of it, but a
lot of that, into the cat.Degree of glue work. When you
start doing that little gluework, that invisible work that
helps the teams move forward andwork really effectively, and
it's not part of your jobdescription, right? When you do
something that you're not, thatthey know you're not getting
(05:14):
measured on, it builds so muchgoodwill. It's so much and the
dividends you reap from that areare unexpected and
disproportionate with that. Likeyou gotta, you gotta walk a
line, and it's a differentepisode about walking the line
of where you and we've done thatbefore, but like you that plant
that, doing of those littlethings for people, bringing in
(05:35):
the chocolate, hey, I brought indonuts,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:39):
right? It's building trust, right? It's
building trust. You saidgoodwill. It's building
goodwill. It's, it's remainingconsistent, right? Like, going
back to the watering the seedmetaphor, it's, it's continually
watering that seed that youplanted.
Indra Klavins (05:57):
Yeah, yeah. And, like, I think that not every
tactic works all the time. Thereason that I like the whole
seed example, least for mybrain, you know, is I try a lot
of little things. And like, Iit's not completely like
buckshot, where there's thingsabsolutely everywhere and it's
completely random spaghettiagainst the wall, but there are,
(06:17):
like, lots of little microexperiments that I read. I'm
like, What's going to hit andwhat's going to get the traction
that I needed to get so that Ican get my agenda advanced.
Because, let's face it, we'veall got agendas at work. Let's
not kid ourselves you don'tthink you have an agenda. That's
a that's you got some reflectionto self reflection to do,
because the very least, you wantto get paid. But yeah, run a lot
(06:41):
of those little microexperiments and say, you know,
hey, like which, oh, that, Oh,they responded well to that one.
Okay, let me do more of that orless of the other thing. Yeah,
it's a
Amanda Jane Lee (06:53):
tactic that I like to use is, Hey, have we
thought about trying this, orhave we thought about doing this
thing this way, like, no, okay,can we try it just once if it
sucks, like we don't have tocontinue doing it right?
Indra Klavins (07:11):
What I love about that type of phrasing, and that
phrasing specifically too, isthat it invites conversation,
and it also invites somebodywith authority to come in and
say, I think that's a greatidea. Let me take this seed that
Amanda threw out there with thisin the form of a question, and
(07:31):
now I with authority, I'm goingto come in and I'm going to say,
let's pursue this and let's trythis out. Or with authority,
they might be able to say, hey,we tried that three years ago,
and it failed for X, Y and Zreasons. These conditions have
changed, but these ones haven't.So I don't know if we want to
try that again, right? Like, Oh,okay. Like, but that invites the
(07:52):
conversation, and that allows toallows you to collect more
information, that then allowsyou to have a larger resource
pool when you're trying to exudeinfluence in a situation
Amanda Jane Lee (08:05):
that is such a good point, you know, part of
the a potential strategy couldbe to as An influencer, to
influencer,
Indra Klavins (08:17):
not like a corporate influencer. It's
corporate
Amanda Jane Lee (08:23):
influencer, but as an influence, as an
influencer, to invite someonewith authority to to be that
voice of authority at the tableto like boost your your
influencing seeds.
Indra Klavins (08:43):
Yes, or if you can, and like, that's what the
authority the other one, if youdon't have access to that,
because you know, executives orpeople with authority are being
pulled in 50 differentdirections, and their time is
sometimes hard to get. Who canyou elevate from a different
team, or from your own team,even as well. Like, if you lead
people, but who can you elevateto champion this thing and bring
(09:04):
it forward and let them shineand help to shine the spotlight
on them? Like, that's alsobecause what'll happen is a that
person who's being elevated andsupported while they're being
elevated, because you're thereto help support them, is going
to remember that the people whoknow that person, who see you,
elevating this person they likeand respect is going to see that
(09:25):
and build your your goodwill andyour trust and your influence,
and it's just going to cascadethe ripples you can get from
something like that. So, like,you can either take the I love
the idea of bringing in thatexecutive and like, say, hey, I
need you for 15 minutes for x, yand z, this is the reason, but,
and that'll help you move thingsforward, or you can go the other
way, or from this, there's lotsof different ways you can use
(09:47):
that tactic. I love
Amanda Jane Lee (09:48):
that. You brought that up, yeah, it's the,
it's, it's, you said, ripple andcascade. It's like, well, you
know, I don't know, for example.I don't know your friend,
Shelly, right, but I know andtrust you, Indra, yeah. And if
you trust Shelley, I'm gonnatrust Shelley.
Indra Klavins (10:11):
Yes, yes. And I think that the one thing that we
all need to be really carefulwhen we're doing this like this
cannot be you need to proceedwith this with a true like true
selfless intentions or truegreater good intentions, or else
it's going to be perceived andit might actually be
(10:34):
manipulation of people, becausemanipulation and they have
similar there's similaritiesbetween the behaviors, but the
intention behind doing thisstuff gives you a completely
different read and completelydifferent results, right? If you
Amanda Jane Lee (10:50):
come at this with, I want to progress
something for the greater good,right? For for the to get the
thing done,
Indra Klavins (11:01):
our shared objectives,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:02):
absolutely share goals, right? Like we
it'll, it'll come off a lotbetter
Indra Klavins (11:09):
then I'm trying to elevate myself, myself,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:12):
right? Or I'm trying to push my own personal
agenda 100%
Indra Klavins (11:17):
100% like, and so, you know, it's, it's really,
it's really important to that.And the other thing is
influence, authority can beexerted in that moment at that
time, and get results in thatmoment. Influence, it's a much
longer game. It's a much, much,much longer game depending and
(11:39):
sometimes you need to be moreauthoritative, because there is
a deadline you need to remindpeople of things and etc, etc.
But like, influence is the longgame. It's about building those
durable relationships. It'sabout building like you're
saying, building that trust.It's about, it's and it's about
people remembering things like,when, gosh, I'll say TD
Ameritrade, it took two like, Iwas always say, like, from the i
(12:01):
The moment that my team had anidea, to when it would actually,
like, catch fire, it was twoyears. It was two years I
clocked it somewhere early, and,like, they're like, oh my gosh,
your number is right. I'm like,I know my number is right. It
takes two years, and that'sokay. And that's the speed at
which this organization works.And that's fine, because change,
(12:21):
because what my team wasadvocating for was change, and
change is really hard,especially when you're in a
complex organization, right? Youknow, like, we could do things
really quickly when we had to,but, like, some of the stuff
that we were championing for wasnot the stuff that was going to
make to the top of the list,right? Not immediately. It
wasn't the value wasn'tinherently clear for folks. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:42):
right? There's a whole change management cycle,
right? It like, not everything.I would say most things don't
happen overnight. Like, whatcomes to mind is a like, a
culture change, right? Justsomething as simple as So, an
organization that I work withdoes a water cooler Wednesdays
(13:03):
question, right? And I thinkwhen, when it first started,
there wasn't a lot ofengagement, yeah, like a few
people, and I think showing upconsistently every Wednesday,
right? With this question of,like, trying to get to know your
co workers better, and justlike, have it, having a little
bit of banter and levity in yourday showing up consistently, and
(13:28):
like showing the value of havingthis ritual made it become a
thing that people look forwardto now. But it didn't happen
overnight. It happened over thecourse of time, every Wednesday,
for however long it took forpeople to really buy in and be
like, Oh, I'm actually reallyexcited for the question on
(13:49):
Wednesday now,
Indra Klavins (13:49):
yeah, it's like, I love that you, that you, you
went there. It's because I'mpart of I'm part of community.
I'm part of a community ofcommunity builders. And shout
out to fabric. And some of thestuff that they talk about all
the time is how it's aboutshowing up consistently and
(14:10):
authentically. Like, those arethe things that build the trust.
And when people see, I love yourstory, when people see that you
showed up with consistency,like, maybe the first time
you'll have two people show up,maybe you'll have three people
show up, maybe the fourth timeyou'll have one person show up.
But when they maybe the fourthtime they like, suddenly have 15
people. They're like, Oh, she'sreally committed to this.
(14:30):
Because in organizations, thenumber of times somebody starts
something like a water coolerWednesday, and it's like, we're
starting a new series, and yousee a series of one, right? And
it's just like, womp. Womp. Itnever happens again. Like nobody
believes it until they see thatthere is that consistency in in
you, in the way you're talkingabout things, in the way that
you operate, and then the thingsthat you're doing when they see
(14:52):
that. And then, if you're like,maybe water cooler Wednesday
doesn't work out. You're like,Hey guys, tried water cooler
Wednesday didn't work out. You.Abandoning that one, not
because, you know, like, I don'tlike the idea. It's just clearly
not catching on. So we're gonnamove on to something else that
actually builds trust and plantsa different seed for the trust
that gives you the influencelater, right, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (15:12):
And you know, you don't have to, using the
water cooler Wednesday'sexample. Again, you don't have
to show up in the same exact wayevery time, right? Like going
back to your micro experiments,right? You can, you can adjust,
you can iterate. You can, likeshift. You could shift the the
(15:34):
format of the questions. You canshift the the type of question
you ask. You can shift, youknow, you can shift all kinds of
things to figure out
Indra Klavins (15:42):
what does work you don't want, right? You
wouldn't and you wouldn't. Ithink that people would react
terribly, actually, if it wasabsolutely consistent every
single time, because that feelslike it's phoned in. It feels
templated, it feels sterile. Itfeels like you don't want. It
completely, drasticallydifferent, because that's too
much, right? But like, hey,trying out this work. This
(16:04):
didn't work. Like, let's keep,let's keep the good and, yeah,
introduce it and let go of thethings that weren't as good. So,
yeah, yeah, as someone whosuccessfully grew some things in
an actual garden in the backyardthis year, it just goes back to
the whole planting, a seed,watering the seed. If
(16:24):
something's not working,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:26):
move the plant, or like, shade the plant, or
like, maybe water it more, maybewater it less. Like, just do
those, those little experimentsto to figure out what works,
what doesn't work, and and tocontinue to continue watering
that plant and eventually reapthe benefits of it, right? 100%
Indra Klavins (16:49):
I think that the the the word that came to mind,
as you're talking about that,is, pay attention. Pay
attention. Yeah, I mean, I, we
Amanda Jane Lee (16:57):
had friends over last night, and, you know,
they, they're very into, intoplants, right? Yeah. And I was
like, our tomatoes aren't doingso well, like, what's wrong? And
they were able to, like,diagnose the problem, suggest
some adjustment levels. And sowe're gonna go, we're gonna go
(17:19):
out of the store and get somesome vitamins. I think it was
like, I think phosphorus was thething. Like, they're,
Indra Klavins (17:27):
they're, they're, they're not out to phosphorus.
The
Amanda Jane Lee (17:31):
tomatoes are not getting all the nutrients
they need, right? But it's, it'sone of those things where, like,
the the light is great. Thewatering is great, but there's
just something that's not right.
Indra Klavins (17:45):
And all you have over those tomatoes is
influence. They're going to dowhat they're going to do, how
they're going to do it, justlike humans, they're going to do
what they're going to do, howthey're going to do it. And no
matter what you try and forcethem to do, people or tomatoes,
you can't. You can't at acertain point, there's a even
(18:06):
with authority, there's,there's, there's a threshold
that you hit, and you still needinfluence when you have
authority,
Amanda Jane Lee (18:12):
people are tomatoes. Is my takeaway from
Indra Klavins (18:15):
this. Okay with that. We have to call it. I
think we got to call it anepisode. I don't know how you
follow that one up anyway, soeveryone you know, try things
out. You know, build good builda good reputation. Be consistent
and treat people like tomatoes.Question mark. Amanda, thank you
(18:37):
for a delightful episode. I hopethat everyone who is listening
got something out of this,whether it's it's some a nugget
that they can apply, or theyfeel like they've been seen a
little bit. And I hope you alljoin us next time for another
topic from the messy middle
Amanda Jane Lee (18:51):
Bye, bye.
Indra Klavins (18:57):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it.
If you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(19:17):
feedback form at the messymiddlematters.com or in the show
notes, thank you for joining uson this journey. This work is
better when we do it together,until next time.
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