September 17, 2025 • 27 mins
Let’s be honest. Networking often conjures awkward happy hours, forced small talk, and a vague sense that you should be doing more of it. But what if it didn’t have to feel gross? In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down how to keep your network warm, show up authentically, and build meaningful relationships that support your career and your humanity. Whether you’re introverted, overwhelmed, or just not sure where to start, this conversation offers a mix of pep talk and practical tips to make networking feel more like connection and less like a chore.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Indra. Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome
you to the messy middle matters,where my friends and I explore
all the twists, turns andchallenges that arise in the
messy middle of work. Hey,Amanda, how are you today? I'm
good. How are you, Indra? I'mdoing well. I'm doing well, you
know, I know you disagree withme on this, but I think you are
(00:26):
an exceptional networker, likeyou have a knack for keeping up
with people from your life in away that I I admire. I admire it
very deeply.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:38):
Thank you. I you know you're not the first
person who's told me that, and Ithink, I think it comes down to,
well, what is networking? Right?Like when, when people hear the
word networking, they think ofthe awkward like networking
events, the corporate networkingevents, and that. I don't like
(01:01):
that.
Indra Klavins (01:02):
I know who does sales people, maybe, maybe
Amanda Jane Lee (01:06):
the very extroverted. But, yeah, I don't
love and that's, and I thinkthat's what comes to even my
mind, like,
Indra Klavins (01:13):
yeah, when you hear that, oh, you're yes
networking with a capital,right? When you're so you're so
good at networking,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:20):
like, I dread all networking events.
Indra Klavins (01:24):
So I don't know if this episode is going to
follow our standard structure,if it's going to be me and
reviewing you, or how this isgoing to flow, but I know for a
fact I don't even need to get Idon't even need to send a poll
out to know this. I know for afact that a bunch of our
listeners struggle when it comesto the word networking, the act
of networking, like you werejust saying, and I'm sure that
between the two of us will sharesome strategies that work, that
(01:46):
for us, that might work forthem, and the very least, will
have some entertaining stories.Yeah, so let's go ahead, yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:55):
So you know, just continuing the train of
like, what is networking, right?
Indra Klavins (02:02):
So, like, how would you define, like, how? So
when I think of networking,like, one of my one of my
stories that comes up that I waslike, oh, Amanda is paying
attention in a way that I amjust not clocked in. So I couple
of years ago, after you and Iknew each other, I had lost my
father, one of our colleaguesalso had a loss, right? And you
(02:26):
said, hey person, you need to gotalk to Indra. You guys probably
have something that you guys cantalk to each other about, just
to whatever it might be and likeit was just so, yes, we did. I
adore that person. I Hey, Greg.Shout out. I think, why can't I
use my name? It's Greg, so butlike, we had a lovely
(02:50):
conversation, as we always do. Iadore him, right? But like, the
fact that you were so clockedin, you're like, I don't even
know what you guys will talkabout, what you will share, what
you won't share, but I feel likeit would be good for the two of
you to spend time with eachother. It was just like, oh, so
I count that as a version ofnetworking like this, very like
human centered, tuned into thepeople who you have encountered
(03:13):
in your life. Yeah. And
Amanda Jane Lee (03:15):
I, you know, when you first asked me, like,
how I'm so good at networking,right? Um, my immediate response
was, I just show up as, as me,as a person, and, like, I pay
attention and, you know, I, Iwas able to just connect those
dots, right? Like, piecetogether something that you two
(03:39):
had in common, unfortunately,like, it was that at the time,
but I was able to to just clockit right, to just identify that,
Hey, you, you know, Indra, like,you went through this, Greg,
you're going through this now.How about you guys talk to each
other and like, Yeah, I'll stepaway. Like, connect, yeah,
(04:01):
connect, connect, on a humanlevel,
Indra Klavins (04:03):
yeah. And I think that one of my whatevers, like,
we all have our insecurities andour Yeah, one of mine is, I
don't want to feel like aburden, right? And so even in
like, those types of things,like I even the language that I
use, even on the podcast, islike, hey, just in case, this is
useful for someone, like, no,it's a useful tidbit that you're
(04:26):
they're listening to yourpodcast. Listen to useful
tidbits. You don't need to couchsomething. But for me, like,
just that, the ease with whichyou're able to do that, and it's
not, it's not an imposition,it's not an imposition. You're
really just connecting peopleand seeing if there's a seeing
if there's a spark, and if thereisn't, there isn't, you know,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:46):
yeah, I it's just finding commonalities, I
think, well, one one, building anetwork, right? Just talking to
people, just talking to people,introducing myself, getting to
know. People you know at thesecorporate networking events, I
(05:06):
just show up authentically asmyself. I'm just like, hey, I'm
Amanda, you know what? Dependingon what the event is for, I'll
introduce myself as, you know, aTPM or like, this is what I'm
doing. And then I'll ask themthe same questions, yeah. And
like, hey, what? What do you dofor a living? Do you live in
(05:26):
Denver or, you know? Do you livein wherever you know? How do you
know the people who organizedthis event? Like, how did you
find out about this event? Andthen, just like, have a normal
conversation and things willcome naturally, I think, like
facts about people, just tidbitsabout their personality, will
(05:49):
shine through. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (05:52):
so let's, let's talk a little bit about the
those networking events. How doyou choose the ones to go to
because it's overwhelming. A Flike, and I go to a lot of
different and I don't, I don'tgo to events for the sake of
networking. I choose to go toevents where I will learn
(06:12):
something, and if I happen tonetwork like, it's a bonus.
Like, that works for me. Butlike, how do you go about
choosing the spaces that couldbe overwhelming that you choose
to enter into.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:26):
Yeah, I so. A tactic I use is I do a little
recon on the event space. Okay,um, if it's a huge venue,
chances are there will be a lotof people there. If it's a
smaller, intimate venue, chancesare it'll be a smaller group of
(06:47):
people. And I choose thesmaller, more intimate ones
where, like, you walk into theroom and it's not like, Oh,
that's a lot of people. Yeah. Soyeah. One, I think, just like,
from a logistical standpoint,it's a good idea. I scope out,
like, where the event is goingto be. I also like the ones
(07:08):
where there is an activity ofsome kind, whether that's like a
panel discussion, and then thenetworking event after so that
you have, you already have thatcommonality of like, Oh, what
did you think about so and so,like, what this person said
during this panel discussion,yeah? Or like, you can share,
like, what resonated with you,and then get other people to
(07:29):
respond to that,
Indra Klavins (07:30):
yeah, I think that the ones that I think
you're right, it's for me, forme. And I think what I've heard
somebody say this recently myhome, like, it's probably true.
So there's introverts on one endof the spectrum of personality
types, there's extroverts on theother side, and in the middle is
ambiverts. And like, what thisperson said, and I they may or
may not, I haven't checked thefacts the most recent research,
(07:52):
but like, they were saying that80% of people are not introverts
or extroverts or somewhere inthe middle, right? Yeah. I'm
like, that's I'm like, that'sI'm like, I'm like,
controversial as a spectrum. I'mlike, I can, I can, I can get
down with that, right? You know,I'm finding the spaces that work
well for you. Like, it's sofunny. It's not a networking
it's not like a formalnetworking event kind of thing.
(08:13):
But there's a guy in New York,his name is sugary, and he's got
a newsletter, and he's got awhole community. He's building
amazing human being, right? Andwhat he started to do is, like,
they've started to add, he andhis partner, DK, have started to
add attributes to all of theevents that they promote in
their newsletter. Right? Some ofthem, they run themselves. Some
of them they, you know, theypromote for others. And some of
(08:36):
that is, like, what socialbattery is going to be required
for this one which like, andthere's a bunch of other things
that they include in there too.But, like, I find that so such a
generous thing to do, such agenerous thing to do. Yeah, I
love the
Amanda Jane Lee (08:53):
how much social battery do you need from this
event? Because that's so real.It's so real, right? Is it just,
you know, a very, very small,intimate event where we're, you
know, actually, you'll remembereverybody's names, everyone who
(09:13):
attended the event, right? It'slike, you know, five to six
people. Or is it a room full ofpeople where you have to be a
little more on, yeah,
Indra Klavins (09:22):
and I love, I love an event with good because
I'm, I'm terrible at names. Itis something that I have worked
on my entire life. I want to bebetter. I always strive to be
better. And I know that I'm notin the more networking events
you go to, the more you see asea of people. And start
forgetting, like, what the faceslook like and who connects to
what. And so my strategy forthat is, I always say to people,
(09:49):
I'm like, when I introducemyself to them, like, hey,
really get to me, what's yourname? I'm like, Hey, I promise
you that I'm going to ask youyour name again, because it's
something that I'm working on.And they. Let and make it like,
oh my gosh, me too. I forget.I'll ask you your name too. And,
like, the giving of thepermission of being humans in
that networking setting. Youknow that that's that's worked
(10:11):
for me and has helped meovercome that. Like, I can't
remember everyone's events. Theyjust said their name to me five
seconds ago, and I've got tostare at their name tag to see
what's cool. Like, who are you?Like, wait, what did she just
say? Because, like, it's can bea lot. It can be a lot, even in
those small, intimate ones,yeah. I think a lot of the
Amanda Jane Lee (10:31):
discomfort and fear comes from the fear of
being cringe, right? Yeah. Andfor me, I've learned to just,
like, Whatever I'll be thecringe one and, and I'll give
every and that will give peoplepermission, yeah, to to be
human, right? Like, we don'thave to be, we're not perfect.
(10:52):
We don't have to show up as thisperfect, polished person at
these events. In fact, like forme, you know, if someone is,
someone is like, too polished,I'm like,
Indra Klavins (11:09):
like, sus Right, yeah, oh, always, like, my
spidey senses are going off.Like, I'm like, What's your
angle and right, what's
Amanda Jane Lee (11:15):
your angle? What are you trying to sell me?
But I think another tactic thatI like to use, yeah, is, if
possible, bring a friend, like,have that familiar face already
built into your event, yeah. Andlike, if you, if you don't want
(11:37):
to talk about yourself, be like,hey, so and so. Like, nice to
meet you. Have you met Indra?Like, I, you know, it says on
your name tag that, you knowyou, you worked in the design
ops industry, so did Indra. Ithink you guys should, should
talk,
Indra Klavins (11:52):
yeah, I love that. Be the wingman, right?
Yeah, it's not, it's not allthat different than dating,
like, a romantic dating, like itis a version of permission,
professional. It's professionaldating. It's professional, like
keeping an eye of what's goingon.
Amanda Jane Lee (12:07):
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, in in today's
day and age, everything isonline. Everything's digital.
Everyone has an email address,everyone, well, most people are
on LinkedIn. It's so easy tojust share that contact
information. I'm not sharing mypersonal cell phone number with
everyone. But here have my emailaddress, or, like, have my spam
(12:29):
email address, whatever, right?And
Indra Klavins (12:32):
I'd say the LinkedIn one is fun because,
like, it's not everyone knowsabout the scan the barcode
thing, which the QR code, yeah.And like, the different ways to
get into it, like it's a, it's ahidden feature, sort of like
it's a, it's a discoverablefeature. It's probably about
it's not hidden, it's justdiscoverable. And like, the
delight that somebody hasaround, like, using a camera to
(12:54):
scan a code and suddenly itshows up. You're like, Oh my
gosh. Like, so you can make it.It becomes so playful that
exchange it kind of does, likeit's an accidental experience
that shows up in those moments,but that that's a lovely segue
into, like networking viaLinkedIn, right? Like there is
the and heaven knows that myinbox is not short of cold
(13:17):
emails from somebody trying tosell me their services, right?
Because, you know, once youstart an LLC, then suddenly all
the floodgates go off, and let'sstart a podcast. Suddenly the
flood like the inbox. The inboxis in boxing, right? But, you
know, I'm not talking about thatthose cold emails, right?
Because that's a different kindof skill. I mean, I do it
sometimes too, but thoughtfully.But there is the networking that
(13:39):
can happen in the commentssection of posts. Yes, it's,
it's
Amanda Jane Lee (13:45):
the engagement, it's the interaction, it's the
it's as simple as, like,scrolling by and seeing that
someone that you used to workwith five jobs ago just started
a new job. Yeah. Like, hey Jen,congrats on your new gig. And,
like, put a little more effortin, because, you know, LinkedIn
(14:07):
will, will auto suggest, yeah,the auto suggest. And it's just
like, congrats, Jen, send, like,put a little bit more like,
personalize it, just a tiny bit.I'm not saying like, spend, you
know, however much amount oftime, you know, right? Writing a
paragraph about it, but
Indra Klavins (14:24):
like, they're lucky to have you is my favorite
go to, and I you do mean it whenI write it right? Like it's, it
is a go to because it worksreally well. And I know that
person is fantastic, and I knowthat that organization is lucky
to have them. They're lucky tohave you, right? They're lucky
to have you, or, like, you'regonna crush it. Easy, easy,
easy, easy, easy, and it's sofunny, like it's so funny, how I
(14:47):
actually, okay, the podcast hashelped with this, but I have,
actually, haven't told you this,so there's a Anastasia. I've met
this woman, Anastasia, she is sofantastic. And a bunch of other
folks at a in. It was a, it wasan event for people wanting to
build community. Shout out toTony bacigalupa for that one.
And it was at fabric. Shout outto them too. And there was a,
(15:10):
there was a partnering exercisethat was happening. And I have,
I have strong feelings aboutpartnering exercises, but this
one was led well. And there wasa share out, and these women
across the room said, Hey, like,and they're like, Oh, we didn't
know each other, but turns outwe both went to Rutgers and,
like, I went to Rutgers too,which then cascaded, and now
that's cascaded online, whereI'm pretty sure that Anastasia
(15:32):
is connected with you Amanda.Like, she's like, she's like, Oh
my God, you're Rutgers too.Like, it's so and that's it
started in real life, itcascaded into LinkedIn, and the
way that it just like tricklesout, which is super useful,
because it also helps to trainLinkedIn algorithm and bring
back posts to me that I mightlike because I commented on the
(15:56):
right thing in the right way. Sofor whatever that's worth,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:59):
yes, and Anastasia did reach out to me. I
think the message was somethingaround I met Indra at this event
at fabric, and it came up inconversation that we're both
Rutgers alum, and she mentionedthat you're also a Rutgers alum,
and I didn't realize that, youknow, you weren't even in New
(16:19):
York, right? You weren't, youdidn't live in the area anymore,
but wanted to reach out.Because, you know, we have this
thing in common. And, yeah, it'sjust like building upon that,
like one thing, however small itis, one thing that you have in
common with someone, and you'rejust going to connect on this
human level.
Indra Klavins (16:39):
That's all it is. And, you know, I think that the
other thing that you that I needto do when I'm networking is
honor my social battery, likewhen I'm depleted, I dip, I dip,
I dip, I dip, I like, I'm like,This is not worth the content is
not resonating for me, and Ifeel like it's, it's not going
to work. I excuse myself, I'mlike, hey, something came up.
(17:03):
Thank you so much. Great event.And I leave because I know that
I will not be my authentic self.I know I will be performative. I
know I will be there trying tomake the other person feel good,
and me getting absolutelydepleted with every single
conversation. So knowing thatit's okay to exit skillfully,
for me has been a very, veryimportant coping
Amanda Jane Lee (17:26):
skill. Yeah, I'm gonna sound like such a
millennial when I say this, butif the vibes are off, I'm out.
Indra Klavins (17:34):
The vibes are I'm out too. I've had no patience
for that. I'm not I'm not hereto boost anyone else's ego. I'm
also not there to tear themdown. So I'll do it nicely. But
I'm like, I'm out, I can't dothis. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:44):
right? And if you feel awkward about just
like, disappearing, Oh, hey.Like, sorry that I could only
stay for this long. I've got torun, make my use,
Indra Klavins (17:55):
right? I have plans that came up. So thing
like, there's a, there's anauthor named Rob Bell, and he
has a he has a podcast. He's abunch of things he I learned
this from him. It's, I haveplans. My plans can be sitting
on the couch and watching Bravo,right? But I got plans right,
like and they don't need to knowwhat your plans are. Like
(18:15):
something came up. What came upfor me in this moment is the
fact that I'm absolutelyexhausted and I need to go
recharge. Don't need to completethat sentence for them. But you
know, this is, or this is notserving me like you don't, and
you don't even mean about it,like you just, like, say, hey,
you know, something came up. I'mso sorry. This is I'm so great.
I'm sure you guys are having agreat time. Thanks for, thanks
(18:36):
for letting me join, and you'reout, and that's it. Yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:41):
And, like, after the networking event,
yeah, you know it. And itusually, I usually leave the
networking event with at leastone new connection, whether or
not that's, you know, someonethat I actually, genuinely
connected with. And like, I willremember them forever, or, like,
just share a LinkedInconnection, right? I like, file
(19:04):
that away. I file that away.And, you know, depending on on
how that interaction went, like,sometimes it'll just come up
organically, months, even yearsin the future of just like, hey,
I remember, you know, I rememberAnastasia from that event. She
(19:25):
went to Rutgers and, like, wehit it off, we talked about
this, that, or the other. Ithink she'd be really interested
in this. Like, let me send thisto her. Or, like, let me tag her
in in the comments of this, sothat she sees this post. Yeah,
she sees this post about the thedaily Targum, right?
Indra Klavins (19:42):
She was a photo editor at The Targum, so she's,
she's, she's hardcore. She wouldlove that. She would love that.
But, yeah, no. And, like, Ithink that the thing is,
whenever possible, and I don'tdo this all the time, which
leads me to have to ask him,like, Hey, I meet a lot of
people, and I'm so sorry. Haveto do this. Can you remind me
how I know you, which I which Iwill do? But if, whenever I can,
(20:05):
I will add a note in my contactslist, or if it's on LinkedIn,
when that LinkedIn connectionscomes through, shoot them a
message back, saying it wasreally great meeting you at such
and such event. I met you atAshley's founders funders on
fractionals, like she's just andthen you have written history,
you have that, right? Like, it'sthat audit trail of, like, how
(20:26):
do I know this first, like, alittle breadcrumb for you, for
future you, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:31):
oh, yeah, the number of times I'm like, I'm so
glad past Amanda thought aboutthis for present Amanda,
because, yeah, like, somesometimes like it, and it takes
a minute, right? Hey, you know,Hey, Ashley, it was so nice
meeting you. You know, best ofluck on that job interview.
Yeah. And then you send it off,and that's it.
Indra Klavins (20:53):
Yeah, I'd say the one thing that I do want to
touch on because I embody thisbehavior, not that I'm proud of
it. I see this body in behaviorembodied an awful lot is people
only network when they'relooking for a job.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:07):
Oh, yeah, no, um, I think not to, like, toot
my own horn, right? But, like, Ithink that's one of the reasons
why I'm so good at networking,as people say, right? It's I
just reach out at the mostrandom moment. Sometimes, like,
if I'm thinking about someone,like, Hi, Greg, I'm going to
send you a text after this.Like, if I'm thinking about you,
(21:32):
I'll send you a message, andI'll be just with or without
context, hey, I was justthinking about you today. Or,
Hey, I was thinking about you.And I thought, like, I saw this,
and I thought about you, and Ithought you would like it, so
I'm sending it to you. Yeah, I
Indra Klavins (21:45):
love that. I love that. And I think it's also
like, networking is like, justlike any other skill, it's a
skill. It's a muscle, and themore you exercise it, the easier
it is. So if you, if you go onlike, yes, work can be a turn.
Yes, it can, like, like, it cansuck your hours out of your day,
and you may not have the time togo networking find the time,
(22:07):
because it'll keep your skillsfrom being atrophied. Networking
through your company is one setof skills, right? So we can
touch on that too, butnetworking outside of your
company is is likely to besomething that you will need to
do to land your next role,whatever it is, whether it's
understanding another skill set,or finding the person who puts
(22:29):
you into contact with something,or whatever it is, like it's,
it's, keep that muscle, keepthat muscle. It's, and it's, it
is the gym. It can be hard, butit's worth it. It's worth it.
Yeah, I feel
Amanda Jane Lee (22:41):
like this is a recurring theme in a lot of our
podcast episodes. Of it's askill that needs to be
practiced. It's like, go go tothat networking gym, so to
speak, right? Like practice inlow stakes environments so that
you're ready for the theinteractions that matter.
Indra Klavins (23:02):
Yeah, and so, I mean, that's where I subscribe
to a gazillion newsletters,like, which can become
overwhelming, but, you know,like, pick the ones you want,
or, you know, subscribe to theright one. Like, for me, I
mentioned I mentioned it. I'vementioned it a lot recently in
episodes. But, like, I'm amember of fabric, which is a,
which is a wonderful communityspace. It's a social space here
(23:24):
in New York City, and they theypromote all the events that are
happening within their spaces.And I know the vibe of the space
back to your first point like Iknow the size, I know the scope,
I know the environment, I knowthe types of people that tend to
get attracted to the space. AndI know a lot of the members who
(23:45):
are the ones who are most oftenthe ones putting on the events.
I'm like, Oh, I like thatperson. They like. I don't know
this topic, but let me go tothat one. Let me go to that one,
you know, but find the way tostay connected. Find the low
six. Join your UX pa newsletter.If you're a UX person, if you
are, you know, PMI, I think, hasProgram Management Institute has
theirs. Like, there's productthings, there's meetups. Find
(24:08):
the things. Subscribe to themand go to the events. And if you
don't like it, find a new one.Find a new one, whether it's
virtual events or IRL events,you know, find them, yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (24:19):
give yourself permission to leave, going back
to, like, our earlier point,like, if you're just not feeling
it,
Indra Klavins (24:26):
you don't have to do it. You can dip. You can dip.
There's plenty of other peopleat that party to hold things
down. So, right,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:34):
right, yeah, I think it's just giving yourself
the permission to be yourself,right? Whether or not, that's
whether or not, that's just, youknow, going out, making friends,
no like, no, no agenda, no goalof like, No, I am going to this
networking event to find a job.Like, why put that undue
pressure
Indra Klavins (24:54):
on so much pressure? Good Lord, good lord.
And then you show up, and thenyou realize that three. Borders
of the people there are alltrying to find jobs. And like,
it's, it feels, it feels very,yeah, it's unnecessary pressure.
Yeah. I think,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:09):
like, you know, we, in a past episode, we talk
about planting the seeds andwatering them. It's no different
in a relationship, right? Yeah,it's, you're planting these
seeds, you're watering, you'renurturing that relationship, you
know, it I'm not saying go outand message all of your LinkedIn
followers every week,
Indra Klavins (25:30):
but like, every reason, not for everyone, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:33):
like, every so often, if there's something
that, organically, you know,comes up and you're just like,
you know, I think Indra would bereally interested in this. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (25:46):
just send the thing. Just send the message.
The worst that can happen isthat, I don't know. I'm sure
there are worse things that canhappen, but in a lot of cases,
like, you just get ignored anddon't take that personally and
like, that's okay. That's okaybecause Heaven knows if I'm not
on my LinkedIn, like, things getlost in the cyber verse, and
life gets lifey. Life getslifey. It's often not personal.
(26:09):
So yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (26:10):
this is inspiring me to, like, I I've
thought of not just Greg, butlike a few other people during
this conversation, and like,right after this, I'm gonna be
like, hey,
Indra Klavins (26:19):
just thinking of you, just talking about you
today in a really good way toGreg. That is, I don't know
about the rest of them, but liketo Greg, tell Greg, I say hello
when you message him, and I'llprobably message him too. Okay,
thank you, Amanda, for runningthis little experiment slightly
different, and thank you for forsharing all your experience in
networking. I know thateveryone's going to get
(26:41):
something out of this one so andthank you to everyone for
listening. We hope that you joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messymiddle bye, everyone bye. Thanks
for taking time with us in themessy middle word of mouth
remains most powerful way forpeople to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
(27:03):
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
at the messymiddle matters.comor in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey,this work is better when we do
it together, until next timeyou.
Indra. Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome
you to the messy middle matters,where my friends and I explore
all the twists, turns andchallenges that arise in the
messy middle of work. Hey,Amanda, how are you today? I'm
good. How are you, Indra? I'mdoing well. I'm doing well, you
know, I know you disagree withme on this, but I think you are
(00:26):
an exceptional networker, likeyou have a knack for keeping up
with people from your life in away that I I admire. I admire it
very deeply.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:38):
Thank you. I you know you're not the first
person who's told me that, and Ithink, I think it comes down to,
well, what is networking? Right?Like when, when people hear the
word networking, they think ofthe awkward like networking
events, the corporate networkingevents, and that. I don't like
(01:01):
that.
Indra Klavins (01:02):
I know who does sales people, maybe, maybe
Amanda Jane Lee (01:06):
the very extroverted. But, yeah, I don't
love and that's, and I thinkthat's what comes to even my
mind, like,
Indra Klavins (01:13):
yeah, when you hear that, oh, you're yes
networking with a capital,right? When you're so you're so
good at networking,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:20):
like, I dread all networking events.
Indra Klavins (01:24):
So I don't know if this episode is going to
follow our standard structure,if it's going to be me and
reviewing you, or how this isgoing to flow, but I know for a
fact I don't even need to get Idon't even need to send a poll
out to know this. I know for afact that a bunch of our
listeners struggle when it comesto the word networking, the act
of networking, like you werejust saying, and I'm sure that
between the two of us will sharesome strategies that work, that
(01:46):
for us, that might work forthem, and the very least, will
have some entertaining stories.Yeah, so let's go ahead, yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:55):
So you know, just continuing the train of
like, what is networking, right?
Indra Klavins (02:02):
So, like, how would you define, like, how? So
when I think of networking,like, one of my one of my
stories that comes up that I waslike, oh, Amanda is paying
attention in a way that I amjust not clocked in. So I couple
of years ago, after you and Iknew each other, I had lost my
father, one of our colleaguesalso had a loss, right? And you
(02:26):
said, hey person, you need to gotalk to Indra. You guys probably
have something that you guys cantalk to each other about, just
to whatever it might be and likeit was just so, yes, we did. I
adore that person. I Hey, Greg.Shout out. I think, why can't I
use my name? It's Greg, so butlike, we had a lovely
(02:50):
conversation, as we always do. Iadore him, right? But like, the
fact that you were so clockedin, you're like, I don't even
know what you guys will talkabout, what you will share, what
you won't share, but I feel likeit would be good for the two of
you to spend time with eachother. It was just like, oh, so
I count that as a version ofnetworking like this, very like
human centered, tuned into thepeople who you have encountered
(03:13):
in your life. Yeah. And
Amanda Jane Lee (03:15):
I, you know, when you first asked me, like,
how I'm so good at networking,right? Um, my immediate response
was, I just show up as, as me,as a person, and, like, I pay
attention and, you know, I, Iwas able to just connect those
dots, right? Like, piecetogether something that you two
(03:39):
had in common, unfortunately,like, it was that at the time,
but I was able to to just clockit right, to just identify that,
Hey, you, you know, Indra, like,you went through this, Greg,
you're going through this now.How about you guys talk to each
other and like, Yeah, I'll stepaway. Like, connect, yeah,
(04:01):
connect, connect, on a humanlevel,
Indra Klavins (04:03):
yeah. And I think that one of my whatevers, like,
we all have our insecurities andour Yeah, one of mine is, I
don't want to feel like aburden, right? And so even in
like, those types of things,like I even the language that I
use, even on the podcast, islike, hey, just in case, this is
useful for someone, like, no,it's a useful tidbit that you're
(04:26):
they're listening to yourpodcast. Listen to useful
tidbits. You don't need to couchsomething. But for me, like,
just that, the ease with whichyou're able to do that, and it's
not, it's not an imposition,it's not an imposition. You're
really just connecting peopleand seeing if there's a seeing
if there's a spark, and if thereisn't, there isn't, you know,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:46):
yeah, I it's just finding commonalities, I
think, well, one one, building anetwork, right? Just talking to
people, just talking to people,introducing myself, getting to
know. People you know at thesecorporate networking events, I
(05:06):
just show up authentically asmyself. I'm just like, hey, I'm
Amanda, you know what? Dependingon what the event is for, I'll
introduce myself as, you know, aTPM or like, this is what I'm
doing. And then I'll ask themthe same questions, yeah. And
like, hey, what? What do you dofor a living? Do you live in
(05:26):
Denver or, you know? Do you livein wherever you know? How do you
know the people who organizedthis event? Like, how did you
find out about this event? Andthen, just like, have a normal
conversation and things willcome naturally, I think, like
facts about people, just tidbitsabout their personality, will
(05:49):
shine through. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (05:52):
so let's, let's talk a little bit about the
those networking events. How doyou choose the ones to go to
because it's overwhelming. A Flike, and I go to a lot of
different and I don't, I don'tgo to events for the sake of
networking. I choose to go toevents where I will learn
(06:12):
something, and if I happen tonetwork like, it's a bonus.
Like, that works for me. Butlike, how do you go about
choosing the spaces that couldbe overwhelming that you choose
to enter into.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:26):
Yeah, I so. A tactic I use is I do a little
recon on the event space. Okay,um, if it's a huge venue,
chances are there will be a lotof people there. If it's a
smaller, intimate venue, chancesare it'll be a smaller group of
(06:47):
people. And I choose thesmaller, more intimate ones
where, like, you walk into theroom and it's not like, Oh,
that's a lot of people. Yeah. Soyeah. One, I think, just like,
from a logistical standpoint,it's a good idea. I scope out,
like, where the event is goingto be. I also like the ones
(07:08):
where there is an activity ofsome kind, whether that's like a
panel discussion, and then thenetworking event after so that
you have, you already have thatcommonality of like, Oh, what
did you think about so and so,like, what this person said
during this panel discussion,yeah? Or like, you can share,
like, what resonated with you,and then get other people to
(07:29):
respond to that,
Indra Klavins (07:30):
yeah, I think that the ones that I think
you're right, it's for me, forme. And I think what I've heard
somebody say this recently myhome, like, it's probably true.
So there's introverts on one endof the spectrum of personality
types, there's extroverts on theother side, and in the middle is
ambiverts. And like, what thisperson said, and I they may or
may not, I haven't checked thefacts the most recent research,
(07:52):
but like, they were saying that80% of people are not introverts
or extroverts or somewhere inthe middle, right? Yeah. I'm
like, that's I'm like, that'sI'm like, I'm like,
controversial as a spectrum. I'mlike, I can, I can, I can get
down with that, right? You know,I'm finding the spaces that work
well for you. Like, it's sofunny. It's not a networking
it's not like a formalnetworking event kind of thing.
(08:13):
But there's a guy in New York,his name is sugary, and he's got
a newsletter, and he's got awhole community. He's building
amazing human being, right? Andwhat he started to do is, like,
they've started to add, he andhis partner, DK, have started to
add attributes to all of theevents that they promote in
their newsletter. Right? Some ofthem, they run themselves. Some
of them they, you know, theypromote for others. And some of
(08:36):
that is, like, what socialbattery is going to be required
for this one which like, andthere's a bunch of other things
that they include in there too.But, like, I find that so such a
generous thing to do, such agenerous thing to do. Yeah, I
love the
Amanda Jane Lee (08:53):
how much social battery do you need from this
event? Because that's so real.It's so real, right? Is it just,
you know, a very, very small,intimate event where we're, you
know, actually, you'll remembereverybody's names, everyone who
(09:13):
attended the event, right? It'slike, you know, five to six
people. Or is it a room full ofpeople where you have to be a
little more on, yeah,
Indra Klavins (09:22):
and I love, I love an event with good because
I'm, I'm terrible at names. Itis something that I have worked
on my entire life. I want to bebetter. I always strive to be
better. And I know that I'm notin the more networking events
you go to, the more you see asea of people. And start
forgetting, like, what the faceslook like and who connects to
what. And so my strategy forthat is, I always say to people,
(09:49):
I'm like, when I introducemyself to them, like, hey,
really get to me, what's yourname? I'm like, Hey, I promise
you that I'm going to ask youyour name again, because it's
something that I'm working on.And they. Let and make it like,
oh my gosh, me too. I forget.I'll ask you your name too. And,
like, the giving of thepermission of being humans in
that networking setting. Youknow that that's that's worked
(10:11):
for me and has helped meovercome that. Like, I can't
remember everyone's events. Theyjust said their name to me five
seconds ago, and I've got tostare at their name tag to see
what's cool. Like, who are you?Like, wait, what did she just
say? Because, like, it's can bea lot. It can be a lot, even in
those small, intimate ones,yeah. I think a lot of the
Amanda Jane Lee (10:31):
discomfort and fear comes from the fear of
being cringe, right? Yeah. Andfor me, I've learned to just,
like, Whatever I'll be thecringe one and, and I'll give
every and that will give peoplepermission, yeah, to to be
human, right? Like, we don'thave to be, we're not perfect.
(10:52):
We don't have to show up as thisperfect, polished person at
these events. In fact, like forme, you know, if someone is,
someone is like, too polished,I'm like,
Indra Klavins (11:09):
like, sus Right, yeah, oh, always, like, my
spidey senses are going off.Like, I'm like, What's your
angle and right, what's
Amanda Jane Lee (11:15):
your angle? What are you trying to sell me?
But I think another tactic thatI like to use, yeah, is, if
possible, bring a friend, like,have that familiar face already
built into your event, yeah. Andlike, if you, if you don't want
(11:37):
to talk about yourself, be like,hey, so and so. Like, nice to
meet you. Have you met Indra?Like, I, you know, it says on
your name tag that, you knowyou, you worked in the design
ops industry, so did Indra. Ithink you guys should, should
talk,
Indra Klavins (11:52):
yeah, I love that. Be the wingman, right?
Yeah, it's not, it's not allthat different than dating,
like, a romantic dating, like itis a version of permission,
professional. It's professionaldating. It's professional, like
keeping an eye of what's goingon.
Amanda Jane Lee (12:07):
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, in in today's
day and age, everything isonline. Everything's digital.
Everyone has an email address,everyone, well, most people are
on LinkedIn. It's so easy tojust share that contact
information. I'm not sharing mypersonal cell phone number with
everyone. But here have my emailaddress, or, like, have my spam
(12:29):
email address, whatever, right?And
Indra Klavins (12:32):
I'd say the LinkedIn one is fun because,
like, it's not everyone knowsabout the scan the barcode
thing, which the QR code, yeah.And like, the different ways to
get into it, like it's a, it's ahidden feature, sort of like
it's a, it's a discoverablefeature. It's probably about
it's not hidden, it's justdiscoverable. And like, the
delight that somebody hasaround, like, using a camera to
(12:54):
scan a code and suddenly itshows up. You're like, Oh my
gosh. Like, so you can make it.It becomes so playful that
exchange it kind of does, likeit's an accidental experience
that shows up in those moments,but that that's a lovely segue
into, like networking viaLinkedIn, right? Like there is
the and heaven knows that myinbox is not short of cold
(13:17):
emails from somebody trying tosell me their services, right?
Because, you know, once youstart an LLC, then suddenly all
the floodgates go off, and let'sstart a podcast. Suddenly the
flood like the inbox. The inboxis in boxing, right? But, you
know, I'm not talking about thatthose cold emails, right?
Because that's a different kindof skill. I mean, I do it
sometimes too, but thoughtfully.But there is the networking that
(13:39):
can happen in the commentssection of posts. Yes, it's,
it's
Amanda Jane Lee (13:45):
the engagement, it's the interaction, it's the
it's as simple as, like,scrolling by and seeing that
someone that you used to workwith five jobs ago just started
a new job. Yeah. Like, hey Jen,congrats on your new gig. And,
like, put a little more effortin, because, you know, LinkedIn
(14:07):
will, will auto suggest, yeah,the auto suggest. And it's just
like, congrats, Jen, send, like,put a little bit more like,
personalize it, just a tiny bit.I'm not saying like, spend, you
know, however much amount oftime, you know, right? Writing a
paragraph about it, but
Indra Klavins (14:24):
like, they're lucky to have you is my favorite
go to, and I you do mean it whenI write it right? Like it's, it
is a go to because it worksreally well. And I know that
person is fantastic, and I knowthat that organization is lucky
to have them. They're lucky tohave you, right? They're lucky
to have you, or, like, you'regonna crush it. Easy, easy,
easy, easy, easy, and it's sofunny, like it's so funny, how I
(14:47):
actually, okay, the podcast hashelped with this, but I have,
actually, haven't told you this,so there's a Anastasia. I've met
this woman, Anastasia, she is sofantastic. And a bunch of other
folks at a in. It was a, it wasan event for people wanting to
build community. Shout out toTony bacigalupa for that one.
And it was at fabric. Shout outto them too. And there was a,
(15:10):
there was a partnering exercisethat was happening. And I have,
I have strong feelings aboutpartnering exercises, but this
one was led well. And there wasa share out, and these women
across the room said, Hey, like,and they're like, Oh, we didn't
know each other, but turns outwe both went to Rutgers and,
like, I went to Rutgers too,which then cascaded, and now
that's cascaded online, whereI'm pretty sure that Anastasia
(15:32):
is connected with you Amanda.Like, she's like, she's like, Oh
my God, you're Rutgers too.Like, it's so and that's it
started in real life, itcascaded into LinkedIn, and the
way that it just like tricklesout, which is super useful,
because it also helps to trainLinkedIn algorithm and bring
back posts to me that I mightlike because I commented on the
(15:56):
right thing in the right way. Sofor whatever that's worth,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:59):
yes, and Anastasia did reach out to me. I
think the message was somethingaround I met Indra at this event
at fabric, and it came up inconversation that we're both
Rutgers alum, and she mentionedthat you're also a Rutgers alum,
and I didn't realize that, youknow, you weren't even in New
(16:19):
York, right? You weren't, youdidn't live in the area anymore,
but wanted to reach out.Because, you know, we have this
thing in common. And, yeah, it'sjust like building upon that,
like one thing, however small itis, one thing that you have in
common with someone, and you'rejust going to connect on this
human level.
Indra Klavins (16:39):
That's all it is. And, you know, I think that the
other thing that you that I needto do when I'm networking is
honor my social battery, likewhen I'm depleted, I dip, I dip,
I dip, I dip, I like, I'm like,This is not worth the content is
not resonating for me, and Ifeel like it's, it's not going
to work. I excuse myself, I'mlike, hey, something came up.
(17:03):
Thank you so much. Great event.And I leave because I know that
I will not be my authentic self.I know I will be performative. I
know I will be there trying tomake the other person feel good,
and me getting absolutelydepleted with every single
conversation. So knowing thatit's okay to exit skillfully,
for me has been a very, veryimportant coping
Amanda Jane Lee (17:26):
skill. Yeah, I'm gonna sound like such a
millennial when I say this, butif the vibes are off, I'm out.
Indra Klavins (17:34):
The vibes are I'm out too. I've had no patience
for that. I'm not I'm not hereto boost anyone else's ego. I'm
also not there to tear themdown. So I'll do it nicely. But
I'm like, I'm out, I can't dothis. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:44):
right? And if you feel awkward about just
like, disappearing, Oh, hey.Like, sorry that I could only
stay for this long. I've got torun, make my use,
Indra Klavins (17:55):
right? I have plans that came up. So thing
like, there's a, there's anauthor named Rob Bell, and he
has a he has a podcast. He's abunch of things he I learned
this from him. It's, I haveplans. My plans can be sitting
on the couch and watching Bravo,right? But I got plans right,
like and they don't need to knowwhat your plans are. Like
(18:15):
something came up. What came upfor me in this moment is the
fact that I'm absolutelyexhausted and I need to go
recharge. Don't need to completethat sentence for them. But you
know, this is, or this is notserving me like you don't, and
you don't even mean about it,like you just, like, say, hey,
you know, something came up. I'mso sorry. This is I'm so great.
I'm sure you guys are having agreat time. Thanks for, thanks
(18:36):
for letting me join, and you'reout, and that's it. Yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:41):
And, like, after the networking event,
yeah, you know it. And itusually, I usually leave the
networking event with at leastone new connection, whether or
not that's, you know, someonethat I actually, genuinely
connected with. And like, I willremember them forever, or, like,
just share a LinkedInconnection, right? I like, file
(19:04):
that away. I file that away.And, you know, depending on on
how that interaction went, like,sometimes it'll just come up
organically, months, even yearsin the future of just like, hey,
I remember, you know, I rememberAnastasia from that event. She
(19:25):
went to Rutgers and, like, wehit it off, we talked about
this, that, or the other. Ithink she'd be really interested
in this. Like, let me send thisto her. Or, like, let me tag her
in in the comments of this, sothat she sees this post. Yeah,
she sees this post about the thedaily Targum, right?
Indra Klavins (19:42):
She was a photo editor at The Targum, so she's,
she's, she's hardcore. She wouldlove that. She would love that.
But, yeah, no. And, like, Ithink that the thing is,
whenever possible, and I don'tdo this all the time, which
leads me to have to ask him,like, Hey, I meet a lot of
people, and I'm so sorry. Haveto do this. Can you remind me
how I know you, which I which Iwill do? But if, whenever I can,
(20:05):
I will add a note in my contactslist, or if it's on LinkedIn,
when that LinkedIn connectionscomes through, shoot them a
message back, saying it wasreally great meeting you at such
and such event. I met you atAshley's founders funders on
fractionals, like she's just andthen you have written history,
you have that, right? Like, it'sthat audit trail of, like, how
(20:26):
do I know this first, like, alittle breadcrumb for you, for
future you, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:31):
oh, yeah, the number of times I'm like, I'm so
glad past Amanda thought aboutthis for present Amanda,
because, yeah, like, somesometimes like it, and it takes
a minute, right? Hey, you know,Hey, Ashley, it was so nice
meeting you. You know, best ofluck on that job interview.
Yeah. And then you send it off,and that's it.
Indra Klavins (20:53):
Yeah, I'd say the one thing that I do want to
touch on because I embody thisbehavior, not that I'm proud of
it. I see this body in behaviorembodied an awful lot is people
only network when they'relooking for a job.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:07):
Oh, yeah, no, um, I think not to, like, toot
my own horn, right? But, like, Ithink that's one of the reasons
why I'm so good at networking,as people say, right? It's I
just reach out at the mostrandom moment. Sometimes, like,
if I'm thinking about someone,like, Hi, Greg, I'm going to
send you a text after this.Like, if I'm thinking about you,
(21:32):
I'll send you a message, andI'll be just with or without
context, hey, I was justthinking about you today. Or,
Hey, I was thinking about you.And I thought, like, I saw this,
and I thought about you, and Ithought you would like it, so
I'm sending it to you. Yeah, I
Indra Klavins (21:45):
love that. I love that. And I think it's also
like, networking is like, justlike any other skill, it's a
skill. It's a muscle, and themore you exercise it, the easier
it is. So if you, if you go onlike, yes, work can be a turn.
Yes, it can, like, like, it cansuck your hours out of your day,
and you may not have the time togo networking find the time,
(22:07):
because it'll keep your skillsfrom being atrophied. Networking
through your company is one setof skills, right? So we can
touch on that too, butnetworking outside of your
company is is likely to besomething that you will need to
do to land your next role,whatever it is, whether it's
understanding another skill set,or finding the person who puts
(22:29):
you into contact with something,or whatever it is, like it's,
it's, keep that muscle, keepthat muscle. It's, and it's, it
is the gym. It can be hard, butit's worth it. It's worth it.
Yeah, I feel
Amanda Jane Lee (22:41):
like this is a recurring theme in a lot of our
podcast episodes. Of it's askill that needs to be
practiced. It's like, go go tothat networking gym, so to
speak, right? Like practice inlow stakes environments so that
you're ready for the theinteractions that matter.
Indra Klavins (23:02):
Yeah, and so, I mean, that's where I subscribe
to a gazillion newsletters,like, which can become
overwhelming, but, you know,like, pick the ones you want,
or, you know, subscribe to theright one. Like, for me, I
mentioned I mentioned it. I'vementioned it a lot recently in
episodes. But, like, I'm amember of fabric, which is a,
which is a wonderful communityspace. It's a social space here
(23:24):
in New York City, and they theypromote all the events that are
happening within their spaces.And I know the vibe of the space
back to your first point like Iknow the size, I know the scope,
I know the environment, I knowthe types of people that tend to
get attracted to the space. AndI know a lot of the members who
(23:45):
are the ones who are most oftenthe ones putting on the events.
I'm like, Oh, I like thatperson. They like. I don't know
this topic, but let me go tothat one. Let me go to that one,
you know, but find the way tostay connected. Find the low
six. Join your UX pa newsletter.If you're a UX person, if you
are, you know, PMI, I think, hasProgram Management Institute has
theirs. Like, there's productthings, there's meetups. Find
(24:08):
the things. Subscribe to themand go to the events. And if you
don't like it, find a new one.Find a new one, whether it's
virtual events or IRL events,you know, find them, yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (24:19):
give yourself permission to leave, going back
to, like, our earlier point,like, if you're just not feeling
it,
Indra Klavins (24:26):
you don't have to do it. You can dip. You can dip.
There's plenty of other peopleat that party to hold things
down. So, right,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:34):
right, yeah, I think it's just giving yourself
the permission to be yourself,right? Whether or not, that's
whether or not, that's just, youknow, going out, making friends,
no like, no, no agenda, no goalof like, No, I am going to this
networking event to find a job.Like, why put that undue
pressure
Indra Klavins (24:54):
on so much pressure? Good Lord, good lord.
And then you show up, and thenyou realize that three. Borders
of the people there are alltrying to find jobs. And like,
it's, it feels, it feels very,yeah, it's unnecessary pressure.
Yeah. I think,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:09):
like, you know, we, in a past episode, we talk
about planting the seeds andwatering them. It's no different
in a relationship, right? Yeah,it's, you're planting these
seeds, you're watering, you'renurturing that relationship, you
know, it I'm not saying go outand message all of your LinkedIn
followers every week,
Indra Klavins (25:30):
but like, every reason, not for everyone, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:33):
like, every so often, if there's something
that, organically, you know,comes up and you're just like,
you know, I think Indra would bereally interested in this. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (25:46):
just send the thing. Just send the message.
The worst that can happen isthat, I don't know. I'm sure
there are worse things that canhappen, but in a lot of cases,
like, you just get ignored anddon't take that personally and
like, that's okay. That's okaybecause Heaven knows if I'm not
on my LinkedIn, like, things getlost in the cyber verse, and
life gets lifey. Life getslifey. It's often not personal.
(26:09):
So yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (26:10):
this is inspiring me to, like, I I've
thought of not just Greg, butlike a few other people during
this conversation, and like,right after this, I'm gonna be
like, hey,
Indra Klavins (26:19):
just thinking of you, just talking about you
today in a really good way toGreg. That is, I don't know
about the rest of them, but liketo Greg, tell Greg, I say hello
when you message him, and I'llprobably message him too. Okay,
thank you, Amanda, for runningthis little experiment slightly
different, and thank you for forsharing all your experience in
networking. I know thateveryone's going to get
(26:41):
something out of this one so andthank you to everyone for
listening. We hope that you joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messymiddle bye, everyone bye. Thanks
for taking time with us in themessy middle word of mouth
remains most powerful way forpeople to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
(27:03):
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
at the messymiddle matters.comor in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey,this work is better when we do
it together, until next timeyou.
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