Ep 31: Professional Identity: How Others See You vs. How You See Yourself (w/ Amanda Jane Lee)

Your professional identity shapes how others see you, how you show up, and the opportunities that come your way. In this episode, we explore the difference between brand (how you want to be seen) and reputation (how others actually see you), and share practical strategies for defining and communicating your identity at work. We dive into real-world examples, tips for aligning your actions with your intentions, and ways to make your presence consistent across teams, projects, and platforms.

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• Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/ 
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/ 

Episode Transcript

Indra Klavins (00:05):
Indra. Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome
you to the messy middle matters,where my friends and I explore
all the twists, turns andchallenges that arise in the
messy middle of work. Hey,everyone. I hope you're all
having a good day. Today, I'mbeing joined with Amanda, joined
by Amanda, and we're going to betalking about a topic that gets

(00:25):
batted around from time to time,personal brand. It can be
triggering. I know for me, itcan sometimes set off my fight,
flight, freeze, fawn reaction,like depending on what's going
on and who's around me. I stillremember the first time that it
came up for me was when I was atTD Ameritrade. I was senior
manager level. I was relativelynew to the company. I knew a lot

(00:47):
of the people there, but stillit was just like, What am I
supposed to define? How am Isupposed to define it? Like I
work in a corporation, like,why? You know, how does this
fit? So today, we're going to bedigging into that and talking
about it. And, yeah, so hey,Amanda, how are you today? I
know you've been thinking aboutthis one a lot lately. Yeah, I'm

(01:08):
good. How are you, Indra, wow,I'm doing well. So yeah, I

Amanda Jane Lee (01:14):
love this topic, because, you know, like
you mentioned, it has been topof mind for me. And you know, I
never really sat down to thinkabout it until somewhat
recently, because I feel likepersonal branding is one of
those topics that has alwaysfelt like for influencers, or,

(01:36):
you know, for all the people onsocial, and not for regular
professionals like us, like,unless you're in marketing or
something right? Like, when doyou really when are you forced
to think about your personalbrand

Indra Klavins (01:50):
when a corporation puts you in an
exercise? But the reality isthat everyone should think about
it. So before we dig into thecontent of the conversation,
y'all know we love a gooddefinition around here, make
sure that we have a workingdefinition that everyone can can
align on, at least for thepurposes of this episode. So
your brand is the intentionalway you present yourself to the

(02:12):
world. It's the story you tellabout who you are, what you
stand for, and the value youbring. It's crafted. It shows up
in your messaging, your visualidentity, your tone, and a whole
bunch of other things. I wouldeven say, even the clothes that
you wear, it can show up in thatway too. In other words, the
brand is what you say aboutyourself, another word that's

(02:34):
very related to it, and it canbe hard to not conflate the two,
is reputation. Reputation ismore about how others perceive
you based on their experiencesword of mouth and what you
consistently deliver over time.It's earned, not designed, and
it may or may not align with thebrand that you've tried to

(02:57):
build. In other words,reputation is what others say
about you when you're not in theroom. So, yeah, definitions,
definitions, there's event. I'msure we're gonna, I'm sure we're
going to have to tease thoseapart over and over again. But
yeah, I so always important forme to think about those two
differently. Yeah, for sure. I Iappreciate that you

(03:22):
disambiguated the two. They arerelated. They are very related,
very related, and they dancetogether, right? Yeah, they
dance

Amanda Jane Lee (03:29):
together, for sure. I think it's worth
mentioning that if you know yourbrand is what you you tell the
world about yourself, right? Andyour reputation, your reputation
is what other how othersperceive you, and if we don't
take control over our brand andwhat we tell the world, others

(03:49):
will shape that story for us,

Indra Klavins (03:53):
right? Because, whether you're conscious of it
or not, you actually are tellingpeople what your brand is every
day, whether, like I said,whether you're trying to or not,
like I start with the thing thatI just said earlier, the clothes
that you wear. That mightactually be the first way that I
showed up as a brand in general,in the workplace, right thinking
through, like, how are youpresenting yourself? Are you?

(04:15):
Are you? Are what it was thisphrase years ago, and dress for
the job that you want, not theone that you have. There was a
phrase for a while, there waysback, but that's, that's one way
that you're conveying yourbrand, consciously or
subconsciously, right?

Amanda Jane Lee (04:29):
And the job I trust for the job that I want,
which is just like totallyrelaxed if you're watching the
video, I'm I'm wearing a band tshirt right now. Hey?

Indra Klavins (04:42):
And for me, it's sneakers I love. Whenever I can
wear comfortable shoes, I'mhappy. As a claim, I am grateful
to generations younger than Ifor making sneakers and
acceptable shoe wear and nothaving to always wear pumps like
That's lovely. That's a lovelything for me. But why does it
matter? Like, you know, besides.Besides the fact that you want
to be seen in a certain way, italso helps to differentiate you

(05:04):
from everybody else that's outthere. Because if you're part of
an organization of more thanthree people, you people,
you'll, you'll need a way todifferentiate yourself from from
everyone else. You need to wait,a way to be remembered, a way
to, you know, for people tothink of you so, like, that's,
that's one really important waythat that this can help. And,

(05:28):
you know, I know there's lots ofdifferent ways that this can
help to shape your career. Iknow that you've got some good
ideas on this one. Maybe, Isuspect,

Amanda Jane Lee (05:35):
yeah, yeah, um, you know, even before I started,
I actually sat down and thoughtabout my brand, going back to
what you said about you show upas your brand, whether you
realize it or not. I you know, Ihad always been in all, most,

(05:56):
mostly, most of my my jobs overthe last decade or so, I was
always known as the go to personfor information, right? The go
to person for information. Andwhen I realized that, you know,
that was part of my brand, Istarted leaning into it and and

(06:18):
showed up in those ways. I, youknow, I put those micro signals
out in the world of for example,after meetings, I would send out
the minutes, all the decisionsthat were made, what the next
steps were, who to who the keyplayers were, who to go to for

(06:38):
all the answers to all of yourquestions about this meeting,
and I was the collator andcurator of information, and that
was my brand.

Indra Klavins (06:49):
It's I love that because it gives an example of
how your reputation can be. Thefoundation for developing a
brand and identifying what yourbrand could be. You don't have
to always lean into yourreputation, but in your case,
it's worked out Right, right.Um, right. It's your reputation

(07:12):
is.

Amanda Jane Lee (07:13):
It can be a starting point or a variable or
an input to what what your brandends up being,

Indra Klavins (07:21):
yeah, and for me, I think that my in some when
you're when you're sharing yourexample, I was like, Oh, I've
had moments where I know that Ibecome that person, and I'm
like, How do I combat it? Right?Because, like, you know, just
whatever you know, I think it's,occupational hazard, and in some
cases, it really helps you withyour work. But like, being the

(07:45):
person that everyone talks toyou know throughout the day can
be really useful in helping tobuild your influence, because
they trust you, and you can geta lot of interesting things from
casual conversations. But Istill remember a moment in time
where, like, it was stopping mefrom being able to do my job, so
I needed to change my reputationof being the person that people

(08:08):
talk to when they're gettingtheir coffee. I actually,
literally had to change my desktwice, twice to make it stop.
But you need there's sometimesyou want to combat it. Sometimes
you want to lean into it.

Amanda Jane Lee (08:21):
Yeah, when you mentioned that, what came to
mind was like being the fixer,right? Like, it's, it's, it's
good in some ways, but there's abalance to it, right? Like you
don't want that to become yourwhole brand, your whole
identity, right? And you do wantto combat you. You might want to

(08:41):
combat it at some at somepoints, right? Like you don't
want to, if people will takeadvantage of what your brand is
or what your reputation is.Think about how to steer away
from

Indra Klavins (08:56):
that or it doesn't serve your long term
career goals, right? It might besomething that you're totally
fine with, but it traps you at acertain level of the company, or
it traps you into a particularcareer path, or, like, there's
a, there's a lot of reasons thatyou know you, you might want to,
like, just constantly monitorit, because I think that you

(09:19):
know we, we've had thisconversation before in other
forums, but like you've oncesaid, like your brand isn't
static. It's not like you're notyou're luckily, you're not a
corporation who needs to worryabout all the things that come
with a rebrand, right? Changingyour packaging, changing your
signage, like you can justchange it and know what it's

(09:42):
because it's yours, it's yours,and you get to define it, and
it's probably not in anythingtoo concrete. It might be in
your LinkedIn bio, which iswhere I started my brand, years
and years ago. My company iscalled people process things.
But where that started as itwas. My LinkedIn tagline for a
really long time, like, because,you know, at that point the

(10:05):
taglines were shorter, orwhatever. I don't remember which
field I used LinkedIn alwaysconfuses me, but that's where I
used it. I dropped it in there,and, you know, and then people
would start actually, like,they'll, they'll acknowledge
that they saw it. They're like,Oh my gosh. Like, oh, you're
doing that because you saw thepeople. You're get, like,
because you're the peopleprocess things first. And I'm
like, I've never said that outloud at work, but you notice
that cool, okay, brand andreality are a lie. Reputation

(10:28):
and brand are aligning, okay,cool, cool. You get to play with
things. You get to play withthings and see how it

Amanda Jane Lee (10:33):
works, right? Yeah, it's, it's an important
it's an important point thatyour brand is an evolution. It's
not, it's not static, it's notetched in stone. It's not, you
know, you're a human being. As ahuman being, we evolve, we
change. So Why can't your brand?

Indra Klavins (10:55):
Why can't your brand? And like I think that one
of my favorite places to testout my brand and see how it is
and isn't working for me, is atmixers, professional or
otherwise, there's usually thequestion that comes up that
like, oh, like, I phrase it as,how do you spend the days of
your week? But the way thequestion usually comes to me is

(11:15):
like, oh, so tell me about yourwork. What do you do? Who do you
work for? What's your you know,like, what's your, you know,
like, what's your, what's your?Like, they did get to a job
title, yeah, whatever. You know,it's different scenarios. Same,
same question, different flavorsof it. Um, but you know what? I
I'm not great at networking. Iknow we had a recent, recent

(11:36):
episode on networking, which Ithink is really important,
because we all need to do that,but I it's highly encouraged in
my mind. Need this might be toostrong, but the fact is, in
those scenarios, even at theThanksgiving dinner table or
wherever you find yourself, thequestion comes up, you try it
out. Say the thing. See howpeople react. What is their

(11:56):
reaction to it? How are they?How are they? How are they
responding to it? Did that land?Did that not land? Next
conversation, try a tweak. Imean, that again, that's the
great part of a networkingevent. You're moving person to
person to person to person, trya different flavor, try a
different variation, and see howit hits. I like that.

Amanda Jane Lee (12:14):
You're doing the micro experiments all in in
one event,

Indra Klavins (12:18):
in one event, in one event. I mean, I couldn't
gracious. I've learned intonetworking so but, but it's
important. And you see how thisturn of phrase works, and you're
like, oh, that worked. And thenyou see how the people react to
it throughout the conversation.Like, did they did that land and
did that follow through? Do theyask me a question about what I
do, like or like I like, askedme to use my expertise. You're

(12:41):
like, okay, cool, or not, so,right?

Amanda Jane Lee (12:43):
Yeah, it, you know, using people process
things as as the example, likethat, that then becomes your,
your tagline, your shorthand,right? Shorthand. It's your
shorthand like my, you know, oneof mine is the, the Get Stuff,
stuff done,

Indra Klavins (13:02):
I've got a sticker for that. If you all run
into me in the real world, I cangive you one of my get stuff. I
get stuff done stickers. Soanyway, but I mean, Amanda's, I
get stuff done or, I mean, andthat's a great way to, like,
just, just try it, try out thelanguage, try out the language.
And, you know, I loveafterwards, like a practice that

(13:25):
I don't do it consistently, butlike, from time to time, I'll do
like a a brainstorming sessionor a brain dumping session of
like, the things and or evenhave, like a little notebook
where I write down keywords andjust leave it, just leave it,
and then I come back to itlater. I'm like, I'm like, I'm
like, Okay, what are thekeywords I wrote down? Like, oh,
okay, I see a pattern. Let's useit same.

Amanda Jane Lee (13:48):
A lot of journaling, a lot of brain
dumping. And if there's nothingto dump, then I read for
inspiration.

Indra Klavins (13:55):
I like that. What do you what do you like to read
when you're trying to do thingslike that? Do you have any ideas
that anything jumped out or no,um,

Amanda Jane Lee (14:03):
no, nothing, nothing, long form, really, it's
just a lot of unfortunately,it's a lot of scrolling.
Unfortunately.

Indra Klavins (14:13):
I love Doom scrolling. It's not always
healthy for me, but I love it.

Amanda Jane Lee (14:17):
I know it's it's not healthy. I'm trying to
do less of it, but, but, yeah, alot of my inspiration comes from
scrolling. It comes from, youknow, either Instagram or
Instagram threads or blue sky orsub stack these days, and you
just see certain wordssometimes, and you're like, Oh,
my brain's gotta latch on tothat. And like, I'm reacting to

(14:39):
it. Like, will others react tothis the same way?

Indra Klavins (14:42):
Yeah, I love that. And I think that that's
and in my scenario, I wouldprobably, I'm probably pulling
out my notebook that's always inmy handbag, and I'll write down
the word so that goes into mymind, my brain dump. I love
that. I love it. Another thingthat we've talked about on
another episode was, like, selfassessments, like. One that
comes to mind for me in thiscontext is, yes, there are the

(15:04):
ones like Strengths Finder, etc,etc, disc and so on, like which
can help with this. But the onethat stands out for me most when
it comes to my personal brandwas, I think it's a fascinator
advantage, and I cannot rememberthe woman's name, and I'm not
suggesting y'all do this, but gopurchase it if you do want to
great. If not, that's fine, too.But I learned about it at a

(15:26):
conference, right? And I camehome from the conference, and I
was sharing with everyone that Ihad this assessment. And these
are the three things that werethat showed up for me, and the
one that felt the most odd forme was avant garde. And I was
like, Oh, I'm like, I am themost norm core person when it
comes to, like, clothing andnotebooks and whatever like, I

(15:51):
do not think of myself as avantgarde, because I think of avant
garde. I think of avant gardefashion, avant garde art. But
everyone when I would say that,like, tell them, the three of
them, like, Oh, my God, avantgarde is so you I'm like,

Amanda Jane Lee (16:05):
yeah. You're like, please explain, right?

Indra Klavins (16:09):
Like, and like, that was with them, not even
reading the definition of avantgarde. And I would read the word
avant garde in the context ofthis particular framework, and
it was like, oh, you know,thinks about things differently.
Doesn't always have to go theprescribed path, etc. I'm like,
oh. I'm like, okay, in thatcontext, I'm avant garde. But
what that's done for me is that,like everyone had such a had

(16:30):
just a strong opposite reactionto the word that I did. I was
like, of that must be true tothem, because it was all about
how the world sees you thisparticular assessment. I was
like, I keep on using that as atouch tone. When I think of
things in work, I'm like, Oh,they think I'm avant garde.
Okay, I can't fight thisbecause, like, it's kind of part
of the part of who I am.

Amanda Jane Lee (16:50):
How do I integrate some part of your
reputation?

Indra Klavins (16:54):
It is my reputation, whether I want to or
not. I don't know where it camefrom, but it's living. It's
living breathing, so it's stillthere today. How do I integrate
that, and how do I takeadvantage of that?

Amanda Jane Lee (17:04):
So, yeah, avant garde is, is all about context
as you as you have realized, andit's interesting that you know
what came to your mind when,when hearing or reading the word
avant garde was art and fashion,yeah, and and you say it to
someone else, and they're like,Oh no, like you, you as a person

(17:25):
are avant garde. You're like,Wait, really,

Indra Klavins (17:29):
oh, really, right, exactly. I had a big old
really on that one. And, youknow, I, I've come to learn,
like I said I earlier, I can't,I can't fight. It's clearly in
my bones. So how do I how do Ileverage it? How do I leverage
it, which is another, you know,tool tip that's that's worked
for I think both of us in ourcareers, is like when you're not

(17:51):
sure about, you know, what youwhat you want your brand to be,
the thing that you put outthere, the way that you show up
at work, consciously, right,versus, you know, unconsciously.
Ask a trusted friend, like, youknow, hey, what are three words
that come to mind when you thinkof me? Or hey, you know, like,
I'm I tell them. I'm trying tofigure out what my personal

(18:12):
brand is at work. What are yourthoughts on that like, when you
think of me, what do you thinkof which is, again, that bridge
between reputation and brand,but it's best when those two
things are support one another,right, right. Crowdsource some
opinions. Crowdsource someopinions. And I love, I know you
love a good mind map too, andfiguring

Amanda Jane Lee (18:32):
some of this stuff out. Oh yeah. I mean just,
just taking the the brain dumpand figuring out what the
patterns are, figuring out, ifyou know what, what concepts are
related, and, you know, bustingout the dictionary.

Indra Klavins (18:45):
Sometimes, for us, I love a thesaurus. It's so
much fun staring at words,staring at words, yeah,

Amanda Jane Lee (18:55):
and it's just, it's one of those, again,
inspiration, right? Like,sometimes you just need to go
out into the world and get someinspiration elsewhere. Because
if you're just by yourself inyour brain, like you're limited
to only the patterns andthoughts that you're thinking
of, as opposed to avant gardewhat?

Indra Klavins (19:16):
Yeah, and it's it can come from the most
unexpected places, like I one ofmy, I'm gonna call it hobbies, I
don't know, one of my, one of myhabits, maybe is a better way to
say it is, I take, I have, Ihave a photo album on my on my
phone that's called things thatmake me go, Hmm, right? And I

(19:37):
wouldn't, something just catchesmy eye and just like, and even
if I don't know what it's makingme think, but it's like I can
feel it feeding something in me.I take a picture of it, right?
It's a subway ad. It's a, youknow, like, it's just like a
pattern I see on a wall. It's agoing to a museum, and there,
you may or may not take photos,depending on the museum. But

(20:00):
seeing what like, because youcan get these ideas from just
about anywhere, right, right?It's your whether

Amanda Jane Lee (20:09):
or not it's an actual Pinterest board or not.
It's, it's your mental Pinterestboard.

Indra Klavins (20:14):
I hadn't thought about Pinterest. That's it.
That's it. I mean, I love, Ilove little collections of
things I like I lit, and thiscould help somebody like the
latest my, one of my latesthobbies is junk journaling. I
don't know if I do it the rightway or the wrong way. I may have
mentioned it before, but like, Ijust the things that I pick up
along the way, throughout theday that just make me go, Hmm,
wind up in in a journal, I pastethem down, start a new page, add

(20:38):
it to an existing page. I don'tknow, but like, it's a way for
me to, you know, just thinkabout, like, what resonates and
what resonates is, often, caninspire what my professional
brand is. Oh, is that

Amanda Jane Lee (20:51):
called Junk journaling? I thought that was
just called journaling, becausethat's how I journal now. Oh,
like,

Indra Klavins (20:56):
oh, I guess I don't know, there's always a new
name for an old thing, but,yeah, but yeah, junk journaling
is really I like, I've nevergone to I've seen that there.
I've seen workshops advertised.I've never been to one. So for,
and I'm, God knows if I'm doingit right, but yeah, I just like,
take it's collaging. It'scollaging, which was actually
one of my favorite activitieswhen I was in in high school,

(21:19):
Art High School. I love the goodcollage. It's, it's collaging
your personal brand. It is, itis, it is. So, you know, I think
that, you know, if I had advicefor folks, you know, like, start
writing down the words that youthat you think of when you think
of yourself, right? Play withphrasing that see how that

(21:41):
tagline works within variousintroductions, whether you're
meeting a new colleague or likeyou're in that mixer that I was
talking about, or whatever itmight be, you know. And then,
you know, just keep onreflecting, keep on evolving. So
yeah, any thoughts from you? Anyother things that come to mind?
I think we hit a lot of goodtopics for everyone.

Amanda Jane Lee (22:01):
I think so too, and I think it's important to
remember that your personalbrand is personal, like

Indra Klavins (22:07):
it's you, it's yours, it's yours, and you get
to do with it whatever you want,whenever you want to. Amanda,
thank you for a lovelyconversation. This was a really
good one, and I hope that ourlisteners got something really
good out of it, and you join menext time when we cover another
topic on the messy middle.Thanks for taking time with us

(22:31):
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(22:53):
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This work is better when we doit together. Until next time
you.