October 15, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson to explore what it really feels like to be at a career crossroads. From packing up her life (and two cats!) to drive across the country, to rethinking what success looks like beyond job titles, Juleen shares her story of stepping outside her comfort zone and learning to trust herself. Together, Indra and Juleen unpack the tension between chasing external validation and building a life that feels authentic, sustainable, and joyful. They also reflect on the pressure of “picking your struggle,” filling your own cup, and how content creation can be both a tool for clarity and a leap of faith in itself. If you’ve ever wondered whether to keep climbing the ladder or carve your own path, this conversation is for you.
Useful Links:
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juleenbean/
- Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Unknown:
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone today,we're talking about being at
career crossroads, and it's thatmessy middle moment that so many
of us find ourselves in, whereyou know, you don't know, do,
(00:27):
left, right, straight, likeeveryone's had one. I think if
you've lived life in theworkplace, everyone's had one.
And joining me for thisconversation is Jolene, and I'm
so excited, but for everyone toget to know you a little bit
better, I'm going to ask you myfavorite interview question. I
learned it from a man named LouAdler. There's a setup to it, so
(00:51):
hopefully everybody gives me alittle bit grace with the setup
and some patience. But what I'dlove to hear about, and what I'd
love for you to share witheveryone is an accomplishment
that you found especiallysatisfying. What was your role
in that accomplishment? Who wereyou surrounded by in the
accomplishment? I would love tohear all about those little
details that stick out for youin that and beyond those
(01:13):
details, what I'd love to hearabout is why that accomplishment
was so especially satisfying foryou, like, why was that thing?
Oh, that felt so darn good. Andyou know, for people, when I ask
this question, sometimes aprofessional example comes to
mind, sometimes a personalexample comes to mind. I'll take
either one. You know, Doesanything come to mind for you,
(01:34):
that you, that you're, you'rehappy to share with us today?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (01:37):
Yeah, for sure. So for me, earlier
this year, I took a leap offaith, and I put my belongings
in storage, and I packed up mycar with my two cats, and I
drove across the country, wow,to Las Vegas. And, yeah, it was
interesting. It was veryinteresting being in the car
(01:58):
with two cats, not foreverybody, but, you know, I have
a friend who did that that'slike, there's a lot to it. Yeah,
the cats have a mind of theirown, but they did great. Cannot
complain. But what was importantfor me is I wanted, it was a
time in my life where I neededto try something new, and I am
(02:21):
very much a creature of habit,and I like safe, and I like you
know, the you know, the thingsyou know, right? You stay where
you're comfortable. And so doingthat was me stepping out of a
big comfort zone. But that drivenot only gave me the ability to
(02:41):
see new things and have a newperspective, internally and
externally, but it also gave methis new found trust in myself,
that I could trust myself to dothings and that I would make it
through that step. So now Ibelieve that I can do something
(03:01):
that's outside of my comfortzone, and that I have the skills
that I need to get there. Ifthat makes
Indra Klavins (03:10):
sense, it really does. Like two things come to
mind. One is, somebody oncetaught me that comfort and
safety are not the same thing,right? Which I feel, you know,
that's a really important thing,especially, I find it especially
useful in the context of work,because what feels like, oh,
like, let's just, let's not rockthe boat, you know, like, let's,
(03:32):
you know, make sure that we cango home at five o'clock so that
we can go to our kids, you know,softball game, or whatever, You
know. But that's that doesn't,especially in today's workplace,
like, I feel like, literallyevery week there's some massive
layoff announcement for thepast, like, year and a half, two
years, yeah, and so, like, say,comfort and safety, not the
(03:52):
same. So that comes to mind. AndI'd say, like, the the doing of
the hard things, like and takingthat leap, like, the best things
in my life have been when I'vejust left and didn't know if the
ground was going to show upright and so I would say,
honestly, I'm stuck, probablysomewhere in the middle of a mid
(04:12):
free fall right now, like I'mtrusting the ground is there,
because I've, you know, I too,have gone through like, lots of
changes in the past few years,and I'm like, big leap of faith
that your story reallyresonates.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (04:22):
Yeah, that's amazing. I don't know if
the ground is there. I'm hopingit is. I don't know if you've
ever seen the movie. I thinkit's called divergent with
Shailene Woodley, but in thefirst movie, it's like a
trilogy. But in the first movie,there's a scene where these kids
have to jump off of a building.They have no idea if there is
(04:45):
ground below,
Indra Klavins (04:46):
and they just have to jump, jump. You gotta
take that leap of faith, andit's Yeah. And I think to me,
like, when you're at acrossroads at the end of the
day, the choice there's
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (04:57):
never really like, oh, that's
absolutely. Way I should go.You're like which, it's a toss
up, no matter what, one is maybemore likely to be successful,
the other is less likely to besuccessful, but neither is
guaranteed, right, right? Soit's definitely a risk either
way, yeah, but you came backtoo, so you did backwards. I did
the trip backwards as well, bymyself, in a car with two cats,
(05:21):
you know, and that's alwaysinteresting as well, because
you're doing all of the drivingyourself. It's a lot of mileage
for sure. Sometimes you're like,I'm never gonna get there. I'm
never gonna get there. You'relike, I've driven 100 miles, but
I still got 2600 more miles togo, but you made it. You made
it, but you made it. So, yeah, Ijust looked at it in 100 mile
(05:41):
intervals. Like, yeah, it'slike, okay, and we made it the
next one and the next one andthe next one, but yeah. And so I
would kind of do it almost likean eight hour shift, like, is a
work day,
Indra Klavins (05:52):
yeah, I like that. I like that. I like that,
yeah. And, you know, that's sowhat drove you to take that
trip, there was probably aturning point that was there.
And, you know, you and I met ata networking event. And one of
the things that stuck out in ourconversations was really the
(06:14):
struggle that so many of us arein the middles of our careers,
like being title driven andmoving up to that, you know, the
next level, the next level, thenext level, versus something
else. And I don't even want toqualify what that's just or
quantify, qualify any of it,what that something else is
like, that's, I feel like,that's a crossroad that so many,
(06:36):
even when I'm reading in thepress, so many people, are
really trying to navigate, like,do I? Do I chase that? Next
title is that the thing that'sthe right thing for me for
whatever list of reasons, or issomething different what I want
to do?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (06:52):
Yeah, totally. I think that, you know,
there's this notion that peoplehave of consistently climbing.
The I believe the refers to asthe golden ladder. And you know,
you climb, you climb, you climb.But at the end of the day, all
of that climbing, is it gettingyou where you actually want to
(07:13):
be? Is that the joy andsatisfaction that you're looking
for?
Indra Klavins (07:17):
And I don't know, it's so funny, like for me, it's
been I've always the reason thatI've climbed has been my desire
to create a greater impact,right, and for the people that
surround me, for whatever itmight be. And what I've found is
(07:38):
that with every step up thatladder, I just find a different
set of obstacles to making thatimpact. It's not, it's it's not
the
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (07:48):
not a newly paved road. No, you're
Indra Klavins (07:50):
like, Oh, if I get into that room, I'll be able
to change. Oh, no, no. Okay,now, okay. Then if I get into
that room, and in that room andlike that, to me, has been the
biggest, like, biggest ahamoment. And, you know, yeah,
Does that, does the titlematter, or does the is it more
important? Because I've alwaysbeen, I've been externally
(08:13):
driven, right? Like, like, Iwant to create impact for
others, but it's forced me tolook at myself and like, what do
I want to create for myself,right? And I think that that's
the other path that some of usare exploring.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (08:24):
No, totally. I think that you have
to come to that realization ofwhat brings you, what brings you
joy or but also what? What canyou do that when you go to sleep
at night or when you wake up inthe morning you are content with
yourself. Yes, you know what Imean, because sometimes people
(08:47):
wake up and they're on thehamster wheel every day, and
it's just what you do. It's whatyou learned from generations
before you get a job, you go towork, you do the things, and you
provide and you know, and that'sit. There's, you know, the
people who we know is, you know,the great artists of the past,
that's like they were theminority in that sense, yeah,
(09:10):
everybody else was just doing,just surviving, right, exactly,
Indra Klavins (09:14):
genuinely, or just doing the thing that's
expected, right? And one of thethings that you said to me in
that conversation, that, in ourfirst conversation, was the
pressure of picking thestruggle, yes, right? I think it
was the way you outlined. For mewas career, family, self. Are
some. Are three of the morefamiliar ones for
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (09:38):
photos, totally, totally. So for me,
it's, you know, do I continue toclimb in my career and go to
that next path? Becausecurrently, I don't have a
family, I don't have a husbandor children, so while, like in
lieu of that, I should becontinuing to climb that ladder.
But also then, when you thinkabout the self part of it as I'm
(09:59):
climbing. Like that corporateladder. Where do I fall into
that? How am I pouring intomyself? Where is that self love,
as people like to say, or just,you know, that joy? What makes
me content? You know, one of thesmall things that makes me
content. People think I'm crazy,but I like to walk around the
mall, even though, like, I'm notshopping, yeah? I just like,
(10:21):
I'll be one of those elderlyfolks that are in the morning at
7am walking around, gettingtheir steps like that will be, I
will be that person. I knowJersey girl and me, right? But
like, I will be that person.Because I just, I like to walk,
yeah, but I also don't like tobe outside in the elements all
the time. So the mall gives youthis enclosed space, yeah, you
(10:42):
can be in there, rain, sleet,snow, you know, whatever, and
you can just walk endlessly,yeah?
Indra Klavins (10:48):
And, like, what I love is you also get to see
what's happening, yes, and youget the people watch. You get
the people watching. Like, oneof the things that I one of my
role models in life, is JoanRivers, and people will laugh at
this bit of advice that I followof hers. But she, I just they
may or may not. But she peopleasked her, like, how do you stay
(11:09):
young? Like, how do you stayvibrant? She's like, I just pay
attention to what the youngpeople are doing, and going to
the mall is a perfect way to dothat, right and stay relevant.
And stay relevant. But you know,like when you share that story,
the thing I think I shared withyou was, I've got to look to
make sure I'm pronouncing hername properly. To shun the brown
(11:29):
Duckett. She's a CEO of Tia, acraft and she, I thought I'd
seen a video that sparked for mewhen you when you mentioned that
was like, she likes to live herlife like a diversified
portfolio. Yes, and so, forfolks who are not familiar with
(11:49):
portfolio management, becauseeveryone's in different journeys
when it comes to theirfinancials, like in a in your
portfolio, when you're managingyour money in a perfect state,
you'll have, you know, like alittle bit of tech stocks, a
little bit of, like, the triedand true, trusted stocks. You
might have some bonds, which arevery but, but the point is, your
money isn't all on Apple, right?Because what happens if Apple
(12:11):
goes sideways? And so in herexample, is like, because she's,
she's a mother, she's a mother,and she has all these things,
but it's like, where she's,like, I might be a not so great
mother on one day, but I mightbe a great CEO today, but she
looks at the long game. Andthat's the point of portfolio
management, is like, you don'tlook at like your how you don't
measure your portfolio on thatday. You measure it over the
(12:34):
long haul. Yeah.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (12:36):
No, totally, yeah. That makes, that
makes a lot more sense. And Ithink that for a lot of people
were stuck on the what I didn'taccomplish today, what I didn't
accomplish this week. And then,you know, social media doesn't
help with giving people theability to really forge their
own path and be on their owntimeline, because you'll see on
(12:56):
social media, everyone'shighlights, right? They show the
highlight. It's the highlightreel of their life. They don't
show the struggles, they don'tshow all of those things. But
then the individuals who do showthe struggles, then it's like,
damned if you do, damned if youdon't. Because a lot of people
are always like, well, you setup the camera to cry, and it's
like, Well, okay, so you knowwhat I mean? I don't think
(13:21):
they're I don't think theirintention was to set up the
camera and then like, pour theVisine and like, the guy from
Love is blind, and then startcrying. Like, I don't think
that's what it is, but I thinkthey were in an emotional state,
and they were like, maybe Ishould capture this moment, and
then they decided to share it.You know, I think more people
than not. There are some peoplewho are in it for selfish,
(13:44):
right, the clicks, but I dothink more often than not, when
people are sharing, you know,those vulnerable moments, it's
because they felt like it wassomething that they should
capture, and then they decidedto share it because they felt
like maybe it would resonatewith someone else.
Indra Klavins (14:00):
I think that that's, you know, like it's a
when people are doing it withthe right intentions, they're
trying to help others feel seen,like you're not alone in this.
And that's a lot of what thispodcast is about, is trying to
make sure like we're not, we'rein this together. Because people
don't talk about this stuff,they don't, and it's, and it's
in this world of where AI issurging, oh, this Imper the
(14:24):
imperfections are much morewelcome. Like, I think that
people are like, oh, like it,oh, that was real. Like, it made
me feel a little when she wastalking about it. But, like, No,
that was real. And like that,once I got past my uh, it felt a
little bit better, yeah. Like,one of the other things that we
were just talking about a minuteago, also was, and we haven't
(14:46):
talked about this, if you don'twant to go there, that's totally
fine, is filling your own cup.Like, I'm also, I'm I'm single,
child free. You know, my plantsare, I take care of my plants at
home. Um. Um, you know, and butyou know, it's when you're
living that kind of life. Peoplelook at it and they often think,
(15:06):
Oh, it's just so easy. You don'tneed to worry about anyone else.
Like, in some ways, in someways, I don't need to argue with
anyone as to whether or not I,you know, left that sock on the
floor or not, right? But it isthe the onus on, you know,
filling your cup. Or even, like,I was talking to my friend
Ashley about this, like, one ofthe hardest things, I was like,
(15:29):
Girl, I'm like, I totally agree,is picking out what you're
eating for every single mealevery day. These are such small
things that people, you know,don't think about, but that like
this. It's just like a decisionfatigue, of, like, what am I
eating now? What am I eating?There are so many things that,
yeah, there's just so manydifferent things and filling the
cup. Like, do you have any,like, how do you fill your cup
(15:52):
when you're in those types ofscenarios? Do you have any sort
of, like, store or even, youknow, commiserations?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (15:59):
I don't know. Totally I think that when
I wasn't filling my cup, I wasin a state of doom scrolling,
or, like, letting right Doomscrolling, I'll end up down a
rabbit hole of things that Ididn't know I wanted to know
about, and then, you know, orI'd like lay on the couch and
(16:21):
stare at the ceiling for hoursand times time would pass. Um,
but I think for me now, whatfilling my cup means is going to
the gym, maybe going to thesalon and getting a blowout
walking around the mall. Anotherthing that's big for me is I
like to go to the movies. I goto the movies by myself. I just
(16:43):
like to go to movies. I want tosee a movie. I'm going to buy a
ticket and I'm going to go
Indra Klavins (16:47):
watch it. People think that's so brave, but it's
lovely. I don't know what likeyou
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (16:51):
sit on the couch and watch TV by
yourself. Why can't you go tothe movie theater? It's any who
I'm going to movies tomorrow bymyself, by the way. So you know,
it's just, it's one of thosethings where I'll go see a
movie, I'm like, Oh, I liked it,you know? And now I feel like
I'm in the know what everybody'sposting about on social media.
They're like, Oh, you know, thecritics are saying whatever,
(17:12):
well, I saw it. I didn't have towait until a friend or a guy or
whomever wanted to go with me.Like, if you wait for people in
your life to have the time orthe schedule, the flexibility to
do things you might never get
Indra Klavins (17:26):
right. And that's, and that's, you know,
especially hard when you're I'mgoing to bring us back to our
topic is those I'm thinkinggoing back to crossroads, like,
if you're sitting there at atraffic light or whatever, like
proverbial traffic light, andyou're waiting for the sign,
you're not going anywhere.You're just gonna get you're
gonna get stuck, and that couldlead to another whole set of
(17:47):
frustrations or resentments, orwhatever it might be, and
choosing to go left or right.Like for me, yeah, so for me,
one of the things around tryingto propel myself forward. I know
we've talked about this a littlebit before, and that's this
podcast is part of that, but islike in the workplace to propel
(18:07):
yourself forward as you move upthe career ladder, or lattice or
career path, or whicheverframework we want to talk about,
the creation of content feels somuch more necessary and less of
a opt in and more of aexpectation
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (18:26):
totally, I feel like in certain ways,
depending on what industryyou're in, content can be your
resume at this point, right,maybe more important than your
CV. It can be, it can bedepending on the industry,
right? For someone like me, whowhat I do professionally in
(18:48):
finance, you know, I don'treally see it as a content path
for myself, but I do see thecrossroads that I'm at in life
as a topic for content, right? Ithink about who can I connect
with based on what I'mexperiencing? You know, we are
(19:09):
the most connected we've everbeen in this in society, but
we're also the loneliest we'veever been. And how does that
translate for other individuals?You're not alone in that, you
know? So how can I take what Ido in a corporate manner, but
also translate that to content,whether it's related to what I
do professionally or justrelated to me as an individual.
Indra Klavins (19:29):
Yeah, because the content helps, I think that part
of why people like the contentis it helps humanize the resume,
right? They're like, Okay, I seeher CV. I see what she's done, I
see her accomplishments, butlike, What is she to work like?
Right? And even though, youknow, there is no matter what
(19:51):
the format is, there is someversion of editing that happens
with these things, whether we'reediting our words before we say
them, or we're literally editingafterwards, it still gives
people. Love vibe for who youare. And the other thing I'm
curious to know your experiencewith this. Like creating content
for me helps me work throughwhether it's the podcast or if
(20:11):
I'm creating short videos or ifI'm creating blog posts, it
helps me think through who I amand what I value, which then
helps me figure out which pathmight be the next one when I'm
when I find myself at anothercrossroads. I don't know if
you've had any experience.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (20:27):
You know? Funny enough, yesterday, I
shared a story on Instagram, andI talked about a topic that was
pretty vulnerable to me, and Ijust happened to have a moment
that I wanted to record, and Ispoke on the topic very, very
briefly. It's like a minute longstory, and I had so many people
respond and say, I did not knowthat that happened to you. I did
(20:52):
not know that you'd experiencethat. Oh my gosh. Like, how are
you? How can I support you?Like, you know, if you ever need
to talk? And that was veryinteresting to me, because I
took a leap of faith, yeah, tohit that post
Indra Klavins (21:07):
button. Yes, that was a that was a leap of faith
and a crush. Or, do I post? Do Inot
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (21:12):
post? Do I post? Do I not post? And it
wasn't, it wasn't perfect, itwasn't perfectly articulated.
You could hear me stutter in itlike, but I posted it anyway,
because that was the genuine rawlike I was, like, I'm not. It
was honest.
Indra Klavins (21:28):
It was honest. And I think that that's where
you know, being at crossroads. Ithink that it requires you to be
really honest with yourself. Butwhat you're talking about is it
was an invitation for yourcommunity to support you and
help you through thattransition, whatever it might
be.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (21:46):
Yeah, no, totally. And you know, it's
interesting to see who connectswith what content, because it's
always different people, andhonestly, sometimes it's the
most unexpected people whoconnect on different content
topics. And that's why I thinkthey always say, like, post
everything, because you neverknow what moment it's gonna go
(22:08):
viral.
Indra Klavins (22:09):
And you're so right. And it's for me, one of
the funny things is which of myI have friends who have had for
like, 30 plus years, and when Ipost, I feel like when they it's
so interesting to see what theyreact to, because, like, to me,
I mean, they're my dearestfriends, but I don't think of
them as my audience. And I'mlike, Oh, I'm like, I they
learned something more about me,and I learned something more
(22:31):
about them through that, I'llblock family members from my
stories. Okay, I don't needanybody calling my mother,
calling this person, having atalk about it in the family
chat. But I think thatprotecting your piece, I think,
is also really important atthose crossroads. Like you don't
want to publicize all parts ofyour Crossroads to everyone,
because that invites the, youknow, like people from the cheap
(22:53):
seats, right, sharing theiropinions,
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (22:55):
right? And then, you know, sometimes
it's hard to differentiate asmuch as we want to filter out
the negative, yeah, it can stillimpact you, even on a minute
level. It's there.
Indra Klavins (23:08):
It does. It's an even like because when people
see your vulnerability, oftentheir insecurities surface, and
then they project stuff ontoyou. And there's even if, even
if you're able to deflect that,that deflection takes energy and
it doesn't,
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (23:30):
yeah, totally like, you know, like we
reference them, you know,pouring into myself, and I do a
lot of things solo, yeah, forlike, you know, not waiting for
other people to do it, and somepeople see that as, oh, she's
doing things by herself. Shemust be so lonely. She must be
alone. No, I can call a numberof people to do activities with
(23:50):
me, but do I wait for everyone'sschedule to align, or do I just
live my life because it's yourpath, it's your path, not
theirs, and it's the only wayyou're going to figure out left,
right or center, right. And Ithink sometimes a perception of
what you see of someone isn'talways the reality.
Indra Klavins (24:12):
It's never the reality, because everyone's it's
everyone's got their own innerworld. Everyone's got their own
inner world that no one is goingto get to see that no one is
going to get to
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (24:23):
see totally, totally.
Indra Klavins (24:25):
Covered a lot of good ground. We did. Covered a
lot of good ground. I'm tryingto think through, if there's
anything else, is there anythingelse that you might want to
explore or share?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (24:35):
I, you know, it's a leap of faith for
me to do this podcast. I'm sograteful that you have it's, you
know, I'm stepping outside of mycomfort zone, getting more
comfortable speaking aboutmyself being more public. You
know, from a professional lens,there were a lot of times in my
career where self promotion wasimportant and I was like, Oh, my
(24:57):
work speaks for me. I don't knowhow to talk about myself. Like.
Let my work speak for me, youknow, but then sometimes you
would see that roles or thatpromotion would go to someone
who knew how to elaborate moreabout what they did, even
though, you know, the endproduct that you did was better,
they could speak to the journeythey took, the logic they took,
(25:21):
all of that stuff, and it'slike, even though it wasn't
stitched properly, you know, forlack of a better phrase, and
yours was perfection, yeah, theycould speak to it more, and
that's more that was moreimportant.
Indra Klavins (25:36):
Thank you. Yeah, because, like, I'm, I'm as
you're telling that I'm justseeing myself, I'm seeing others
throughout parts of you know,our respective careers and
journeys. And it is so true weall I think that I'll say for as
women, minorities, etc, need tolearn to self promote a little
bit more, especially those of uswho are in background roles,
(25:58):
like you're finance, I'moperations and program
management like we're used tofading in the back like but
being in that room and being theone to tell the story of our
work is so important. Decidingto do that is a huge transfer.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (26:14):
It is, it is for sure, and you know,
being content within yourselfthat you are able to articulate
it in a way that makes sense toyour audience, but also is true
to you 100%
Indra Klavins (26:29):
thank you for including that so important, so
rich. Julian, I'm so gratefullike you know, we are new
friends. I'm so grateful thatyou've joined me here today and
trusted me for this. I'm gladyou asked well, and thank you
for joining us. And goodnessgracious me and my messy stuff,
I hope you all got somethinggood out of it as well. And I
hope you join us next time whenwe cover another topic for the
(26:52):
messy middle bye, everyone bye,thanks for taking time with us
in the messy middle word ofmouth remains most powerful way
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
you, we'd love it. If you'dsubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite app, download a fewepisodes and share it with
someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
(27:13):
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore?
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
or in the show notes, thank youfor joining us on this journey.
This work is better when we doit together, until next time.
Unknown:
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone today,we're talking about being at
career crossroads, and it's thatmessy middle moment that so many
of us find ourselves in, whereyou know, you don't know, do,
(00:27):
left, right, straight, likeeveryone's had one. I think if
you've lived life in theworkplace, everyone's had one.
And joining me for thisconversation is Jolene, and I'm
so excited, but for everyone toget to know you a little bit
better, I'm going to ask you myfavorite interview question. I
learned it from a man named LouAdler. There's a setup to it, so
(00:51):
hopefully everybody gives me alittle bit grace with the setup
and some patience. But what I'dlove to hear about, and what I'd
love for you to share witheveryone is an accomplishment
that you found especiallysatisfying. What was your role
in that accomplishment? Who wereyou surrounded by in the
accomplishment? I would love tohear all about those little
details that stick out for youin that and beyond those
(01:13):
details, what I'd love to hearabout is why that accomplishment
was so especially satisfying foryou, like, why was that thing?
Oh, that felt so darn good. Andyou know, for people, when I ask
this question, sometimes aprofessional example comes to
mind, sometimes a personalexample comes to mind. I'll take
either one. You know, Doesanything come to mind for you,
(01:34):
that you, that you're, you'rehappy to share with us today?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (01:37):
Yeah, for sure. So for me, earlier
this year, I took a leap offaith, and I put my belongings
in storage, and I packed up mycar with my two cats, and I
drove across the country, wow,to Las Vegas. And, yeah, it was
interesting. It was veryinteresting being in the car
(01:58):
with two cats, not foreverybody, but, you know, I have
a friend who did that that'slike, there's a lot to it. Yeah,
the cats have a mind of theirown, but they did great. Cannot
complain. But what was importantfor me is I wanted, it was a
time in my life where I neededto try something new, and I am
(02:21):
very much a creature of habit,and I like safe, and I like you
know, the you know, the thingsyou know, right? You stay where
you're comfortable. And so doingthat was me stepping out of a
big comfort zone. But that drivenot only gave me the ability to
(02:41):
see new things and have a newperspective, internally and
externally, but it also gave methis new found trust in myself,
that I could trust myself to dothings and that I would make it
through that step. So now Ibelieve that I can do something
(03:01):
that's outside of my comfortzone, and that I have the skills
that I need to get there. Ifthat makes
Indra Klavins (03:10):
sense, it really does. Like two things come to
mind. One is, somebody oncetaught me that comfort and
safety are not the same thing,right? Which I feel, you know,
that's a really important thing,especially, I find it especially
useful in the context of work,because what feels like, oh,
like, let's just, let's not rockthe boat, you know, like, let's,
(03:32):
you know, make sure that we cango home at five o'clock so that
we can go to our kids, you know,softball game, or whatever, You
know. But that's that doesn't,especially in today's workplace,
like, I feel like, literallyevery week there's some massive
layoff announcement for thepast, like, year and a half, two
years, yeah, and so, like, say,comfort and safety, not the
(03:52):
same. So that comes to mind. AndI'd say, like, the the doing of
the hard things, like and takingthat leap, like, the best things
in my life have been when I'vejust left and didn't know if the
ground was going to show upright and so I would say,
honestly, I'm stuck, probablysomewhere in the middle of a mid
(04:12):
free fall right now, like I'mtrusting the ground is there,
because I've, you know, I too,have gone through like, lots of
changes in the past few years,and I'm like, big leap of faith
that your story reallyresonates.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (04:22):
Yeah, that's amazing. I don't know if
the ground is there. I'm hopingit is. I don't know if you've
ever seen the movie. I thinkit's called divergent with
Shailene Woodley, but in thefirst movie, it's like a
trilogy. But in the first movie,there's a scene where these kids
have to jump off of a building.They have no idea if there is
(04:45):
ground below,
Indra Klavins (04:46):
and they just have to jump, jump. You gotta
take that leap of faith, andit's Yeah. And I think to me,
like, when you're at acrossroads at the end of the
day, the choice there's
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (04:57):
never really like, oh, that's
absolutely. Way I should go.You're like which, it's a toss
up, no matter what, one is maybemore likely to be successful,
the other is less likely to besuccessful, but neither is
guaranteed, right, right? Soit's definitely a risk either
way, yeah, but you came backtoo, so you did backwards. I did
the trip backwards as well, bymyself, in a car with two cats,
(05:21):
you know, and that's alwaysinteresting as well, because
you're doing all of the drivingyourself. It's a lot of mileage
for sure. Sometimes you're like,I'm never gonna get there. I'm
never gonna get there. You'relike, I've driven 100 miles, but
I still got 2600 more miles togo, but you made it. You made
it, but you made it. So, yeah, Ijust looked at it in 100 mile
(05:41):
intervals. Like, yeah, it'slike, okay, and we made it the
next one and the next one andthe next one, but yeah. And so I
would kind of do it almost likean eight hour shift, like, is a
work day,
Indra Klavins (05:52):
yeah, I like that. I like that. I like that,
yeah. And, you know, that's sowhat drove you to take that
trip, there was probably aturning point that was there.
And, you know, you and I met ata networking event. And one of
the things that stuck out in ourconversations was really the
(06:14):
struggle that so many of us arein the middles of our careers,
like being title driven andmoving up to that, you know, the
next level, the next level, thenext level, versus something
else. And I don't even want toqualify what that's just or
quantify, qualify any of it,what that something else is
like, that's, I feel like,that's a crossroad that so many,
(06:36):
even when I'm reading in thepress, so many people, are
really trying to navigate, like,do I? Do I chase that? Next
title is that the thing that'sthe right thing for me for
whatever list of reasons, or issomething different what I want
to do?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (06:52):
Yeah, totally. I think that, you know,
there's this notion that peoplehave of consistently climbing.
The I believe the refers to asthe golden ladder. And you know,
you climb, you climb, you climb.But at the end of the day, all
of that climbing, is it gettingyou where you actually want to
(07:13):
be? Is that the joy andsatisfaction that you're looking
for?
Indra Klavins (07:17):
And I don't know, it's so funny, like for me, it's
been I've always the reason thatI've climbed has been my desire
to create a greater impact,right, and for the people that
surround me, for whatever itmight be. And what I've found is
(07:38):
that with every step up thatladder, I just find a different
set of obstacles to making thatimpact. It's not, it's it's not
the
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (07:48):
not a newly paved road. No, you're
Indra Klavins (07:50):
like, Oh, if I get into that room, I'll be able
to change. Oh, no, no. Okay,now, okay. Then if I get into
that room, and in that room andlike that, to me, has been the
biggest, like, biggest ahamoment. And, you know, yeah,
Does that, does the titlematter, or does the is it more
important? Because I've alwaysbeen, I've been externally
(08:13):
driven, right? Like, like, Iwant to create impact for
others, but it's forced me tolook at myself and like, what do
I want to create for myself,right? And I think that that's
the other path that some of usare exploring.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (08:24):
No, totally. I think that you have
to come to that realization ofwhat brings you, what brings you
joy or but also what? What canyou do that when you go to sleep
at night or when you wake up inthe morning you are content with
yourself. Yes, you know what Imean, because sometimes people
(08:47):
wake up and they're on thehamster wheel every day, and
it's just what you do. It's whatyou learned from generations
before you get a job, you go towork, you do the things, and you
provide and you know, and that'sit. There's, you know, the
people who we know is, you know,the great artists of the past,
that's like they were theminority in that sense, yeah,
(09:10):
everybody else was just doing,just surviving, right, exactly,
Indra Klavins (09:14):
genuinely, or just doing the thing that's
expected, right? And one of thethings that you said to me in
that conversation, that, in ourfirst conversation, was the
pressure of picking thestruggle, yes, right? I think it
was the way you outlined. For mewas career, family, self. Are
some. Are three of the morefamiliar ones for
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (09:38):
photos, totally, totally. So for me,
it's, you know, do I continue toclimb in my career and go to
that next path? Becausecurrently, I don't have a
family, I don't have a husbandor children, so while, like in
lieu of that, I should becontinuing to climb that ladder.
But also then, when you thinkabout the self part of it as I'm
(09:59):
climbing. Like that corporateladder. Where do I fall into
that? How am I pouring intomyself? Where is that self love,
as people like to say, or just,you know, that joy? What makes
me content? You know, one of thesmall things that makes me
content. People think I'm crazy,but I like to walk around the
mall, even though, like, I'm notshopping, yeah? I just like,
(10:21):
I'll be one of those elderlyfolks that are in the morning at
7am walking around, gettingtheir steps like that will be, I
will be that person. I knowJersey girl and me, right? But
like, I will be that person.Because I just, I like to walk,
yeah, but I also don't like tobe outside in the elements all
the time. So the mall gives youthis enclosed space, yeah, you
(10:42):
can be in there, rain, sleet,snow, you know, whatever, and
you can just walk endlessly,yeah?
Indra Klavins (10:48):
And, like, what I love is you also get to see
what's happening, yes, and youget the people watch. You get
the people watching. Like, oneof the things that I one of my
role models in life, is JoanRivers, and people will laugh at
this bit of advice that I followof hers. But she, I just they
may or may not. But she peopleasked her, like, how do you stay
(11:09):
young? Like, how do you stayvibrant? She's like, I just pay
attention to what the youngpeople are doing, and going to
the mall is a perfect way to dothat, right and stay relevant.
And stay relevant. But you know,like when you share that story,
the thing I think I shared withyou was, I've got to look to
make sure I'm pronouncing hername properly. To shun the brown
(11:29):
Duckett. She's a CEO of Tia, acraft and she, I thought I'd
seen a video that sparked for mewhen you when you mentioned that
was like, she likes to live herlife like a diversified
portfolio. Yes, and so, forfolks who are not familiar with
(11:49):
portfolio management, becauseeveryone's in different journeys
when it comes to theirfinancials, like in a in your
portfolio, when you're managingyour money in a perfect state,
you'll have, you know, like alittle bit of tech stocks, a
little bit of, like, the triedand true, trusted stocks. You
might have some bonds, which arevery but, but the point is, your
money isn't all on Apple, right?Because what happens if Apple
(12:11):
goes sideways? And so in herexample, is like, because she's,
she's a mother, she's a mother,and she has all these things,
but it's like, where she's,like, I might be a not so great
mother on one day, but I mightbe a great CEO today, but she
looks at the long game. Andthat's the point of portfolio
management, is like, you don'tlook at like your how you don't
measure your portfolio on thatday. You measure it over the
(12:34):
long haul. Yeah.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (12:36):
No, totally, yeah. That makes, that
makes a lot more sense. And Ithink that for a lot of people
were stuck on the what I didn'taccomplish today, what I didn't
accomplish this week. And then,you know, social media doesn't
help with giving people theability to really forge their
own path and be on their owntimeline, because you'll see on
(12:56):
social media, everyone'shighlights, right? They show the
highlight. It's the highlightreel of their life. They don't
show the struggles, they don'tshow all of those things. But
then the individuals who do showthe struggles, then it's like,
damned if you do, damned if youdon't. Because a lot of people
are always like, well, you setup the camera to cry, and it's
like, Well, okay, so you knowwhat I mean? I don't think
(13:21):
they're I don't think theirintention was to set up the
camera and then like, pour theVisine and like, the guy from
Love is blind, and then startcrying. Like, I don't think
that's what it is, but I thinkthey were in an emotional state,
and they were like, maybe Ishould capture this moment, and
then they decided to share it.You know, I think more people
than not. There are some peoplewho are in it for selfish,
(13:44):
right, the clicks, but I dothink more often than not, when
people are sharing, you know,those vulnerable moments, it's
because they felt like it wassomething that they should
capture, and then they decidedto share it because they felt
like maybe it would resonatewith someone else.
Indra Klavins (14:00):
I think that that's, you know, like it's a
when people are doing it withthe right intentions, they're
trying to help others feel seen,like you're not alone in this.
And that's a lot of what thispodcast is about, is trying to
make sure like we're not, we'rein this together. Because people
don't talk about this stuff,they don't, and it's, and it's
in this world of where AI issurging, oh, this Imper the
(14:24):
imperfections are much morewelcome. Like, I think that
people are like, oh, like it,oh, that was real. Like, it made
me feel a little when she wastalking about it. But, like, No,
that was real. And like that,once I got past my uh, it felt a
little bit better, yeah. Like,one of the other things that we
were just talking about a minuteago, also was, and we haven't
(14:46):
talked about this, if you don'twant to go there, that's totally
fine, is filling your own cup.Like, I'm also, I'm I'm single,
child free. You know, my plantsare, I take care of my plants at
home. Um. Um, you know, and butyou know, it's when you're
living that kind of life. Peoplelook at it and they often think,
(15:06):
Oh, it's just so easy. You don'tneed to worry about anyone else.
Like, in some ways, in someways, I don't need to argue with
anyone as to whether or not I,you know, left that sock on the
floor or not, right? But it isthe the onus on, you know,
filling your cup. Or even, like,I was talking to my friend
Ashley about this, like, one ofthe hardest things, I was like,
(15:29):
Girl, I'm like, I totally agree,is picking out what you're
eating for every single mealevery day. These are such small
things that people, you know,don't think about, but that like
this. It's just like a decisionfatigue, of, like, what am I
eating now? What am I eating?There are so many things that,
yeah, there's just so manydifferent things and filling the
cup. Like, do you have any,like, how do you fill your cup
(15:52):
when you're in those types ofscenarios? Do you have any sort
of, like, store or even, youknow, commiserations?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (15:59):
I don't know. Totally I think that when
I wasn't filling my cup, I wasin a state of doom scrolling,
or, like, letting right Doomscrolling, I'll end up down a
rabbit hole of things that Ididn't know I wanted to know
about, and then, you know, orI'd like lay on the couch and
(16:21):
stare at the ceiling for hoursand times time would pass. Um,
but I think for me now, whatfilling my cup means is going to
the gym, maybe going to thesalon and getting a blowout
walking around the mall. Anotherthing that's big for me is I
like to go to the movies. I goto the movies by myself. I just
(16:43):
like to go to movies. I want tosee a movie. I'm going to buy a
ticket and I'm going to go
Indra Klavins (16:47):
watch it. People think that's so brave, but it's
lovely. I don't know what likeyou
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (16:51):
sit on the couch and watch TV by
yourself. Why can't you go tothe movie theater? It's any who
I'm going to movies tomorrow bymyself, by the way. So you know,
it's just, it's one of thosethings where I'll go see a
movie, I'm like, Oh, I liked it,you know? And now I feel like
I'm in the know what everybody'sposting about on social media.
They're like, Oh, you know, thecritics are saying whatever,
(17:12):
well, I saw it. I didn't have towait until a friend or a guy or
whomever wanted to go with me.Like, if you wait for people in
your life to have the time orthe schedule, the flexibility to
do things you might never get
Indra Klavins (17:26):
right. And that's, and that's, you know,
especially hard when you're I'mgoing to bring us back to our
topic is those I'm thinkinggoing back to crossroads, like,
if you're sitting there at atraffic light or whatever, like
proverbial traffic light, andyou're waiting for the sign,
you're not going anywhere.You're just gonna get you're
gonna get stuck, and that couldlead to another whole set of
(17:47):
frustrations or resentments, orwhatever it might be, and
choosing to go left or right.Like for me, yeah, so for me,
one of the things around tryingto propel myself forward. I know
we've talked about this a littlebit before, and that's this
podcast is part of that, but islike in the workplace to propel
(18:07):
yourself forward as you move upthe career ladder, or lattice or
career path, or whicheverframework we want to talk about,
the creation of content feels somuch more necessary and less of
a opt in and more of aexpectation
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (18:26):
totally, I feel like in certain ways,
depending on what industryyou're in, content can be your
resume at this point, right,maybe more important than your
CV. It can be, it can bedepending on the industry,
right? For someone like me, whowhat I do professionally in
(18:48):
finance, you know, I don'treally see it as a content path
for myself, but I do see thecrossroads that I'm at in life
as a topic for content, right? Ithink about who can I connect
with based on what I'mexperiencing? You know, we are
(19:09):
the most connected we've everbeen in this in society, but
we're also the loneliest we'veever been. And how does that
translate for other individuals?You're not alone in that, you
know? So how can I take what Ido in a corporate manner, but
also translate that to content,whether it's related to what I
do professionally or justrelated to me as an individual.
Indra Klavins (19:29):
Yeah, because the content helps, I think that part
of why people like the contentis it helps humanize the resume,
right? They're like, Okay, I seeher CV. I see what she's done, I
see her accomplishments, butlike, What is she to work like?
Right? And even though, youknow, there is no matter what
(19:51):
the format is, there is someversion of editing that happens
with these things, whether we'reediting our words before we say
them, or we're literally editingafterwards, it still gives
people. Love vibe for who youare. And the other thing I'm
curious to know your experiencewith this. Like creating content
for me helps me work throughwhether it's the podcast or if
(20:11):
I'm creating short videos or ifI'm creating blog posts, it
helps me think through who I amand what I value, which then
helps me figure out which pathmight be the next one when I'm
when I find myself at anothercrossroads. I don't know if
you've had any experience.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (20:27):
You know? Funny enough, yesterday, I
shared a story on Instagram, andI talked about a topic that was
pretty vulnerable to me, and Ijust happened to have a moment
that I wanted to record, and Ispoke on the topic very, very
briefly. It's like a minute longstory, and I had so many people
respond and say, I did not knowthat that happened to you. I did
(20:52):
not know that you'd experiencethat. Oh my gosh. Like, how are
you? How can I support you?Like, you know, if you ever need
to talk? And that was veryinteresting to me, because I
took a leap of faith, yeah, tohit that post
Indra Klavins (21:07):
button. Yes, that was a that was a leap of faith
and a crush. Or, do I post? Do Inot
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (21:12):
post? Do I post? Do I not post? And it
wasn't, it wasn't perfect, itwasn't perfectly articulated.
You could hear me stutter in itlike, but I posted it anyway,
because that was the genuine rawlike I was, like, I'm not. It
was honest.
Indra Klavins (21:28):
It was honest. And I think that that's where
you know, being at crossroads. Ithink that it requires you to be
really honest with yourself. Butwhat you're talking about is it
was an invitation for yourcommunity to support you and
help you through thattransition, whatever it might
be.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (21:46):
Yeah, no, totally. And you know, it's
interesting to see who connectswith what content, because it's
always different people, andhonestly, sometimes it's the
most unexpected people whoconnect on different content
topics. And that's why I thinkthey always say, like, post
everything, because you neverknow what moment it's gonna go
(22:08):
viral.
Indra Klavins (22:09):
And you're so right. And it's for me, one of
the funny things is which of myI have friends who have had for
like, 30 plus years, and when Ipost, I feel like when they it's
so interesting to see what theyreact to, because, like, to me,
I mean, they're my dearestfriends, but I don't think of
them as my audience. And I'mlike, Oh, I'm like, I they
learned something more about me,and I learned something more
(22:31):
about them through that, I'llblock family members from my
stories. Okay, I don't needanybody calling my mother,
calling this person, having atalk about it in the family
chat. But I think thatprotecting your piece, I think,
is also really important atthose crossroads. Like you don't
want to publicize all parts ofyour Crossroads to everyone,
because that invites the, youknow, like people from the cheap
(22:53):
seats, right, sharing theiropinions,
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (22:55):
right? And then, you know, sometimes
it's hard to differentiate asmuch as we want to filter out
the negative, yeah, it can stillimpact you, even on a minute
level. It's there.
Indra Klavins (23:08):
It does. It's an even like because when people
see your vulnerability, oftentheir insecurities surface, and
then they project stuff ontoyou. And there's even if, even
if you're able to deflect that,that deflection takes energy and
it doesn't,
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (23:30):
yeah, totally like, you know, like we
reference them, you know,pouring into myself, and I do a
lot of things solo, yeah, forlike, you know, not waiting for
other people to do it, and somepeople see that as, oh, she's
doing things by herself. Shemust be so lonely. She must be
alone. No, I can call a numberof people to do activities with
(23:50):
me, but do I wait for everyone'sschedule to align, or do I just
live my life because it's yourpath, it's your path, not
theirs, and it's the only wayyou're going to figure out left,
right or center, right. And Ithink sometimes a perception of
what you see of someone isn'talways the reality.
Indra Klavins (24:12):
It's never the reality, because everyone's it's
everyone's got their own innerworld. Everyone's got their own
inner world that no one is goingto get to see that no one is
going to get to
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (24:23):
see totally, totally.
Indra Klavins (24:25):
Covered a lot of good ground. We did. Covered a
lot of good ground. I'm tryingto think through, if there's
anything else, is there anythingelse that you might want to
explore or share?
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (24:35):
I, you know, it's a leap of faith for
me to do this podcast. I'm sograteful that you have it's, you
know, I'm stepping outside of mycomfort zone, getting more
comfortable speaking aboutmyself being more public. You
know, from a professional lens,there were a lot of times in my
career where self promotion wasimportant and I was like, Oh, my
(24:57):
work speaks for me. I don't knowhow to talk about myself. Like.
Let my work speak for me, youknow, but then sometimes you
would see that roles or thatpromotion would go to someone
who knew how to elaborate moreabout what they did, even
though, you know, the endproduct that you did was better,
they could speak to the journeythey took, the logic they took,
(25:21):
all of that stuff, and it'slike, even though it wasn't
stitched properly, you know, forlack of a better phrase, and
yours was perfection, yeah, theycould speak to it more, and
that's more that was moreimportant.
Indra Klavins (25:36):
Thank you. Yeah, because, like, I'm, I'm as
you're telling that I'm justseeing myself, I'm seeing others
throughout parts of you know,our respective careers and
journeys. And it is so true weall I think that I'll say for as
women, minorities, etc, need tolearn to self promote a little
bit more, especially those of uswho are in background roles,
(25:58):
like you're finance, I'moperations and program
management like we're used tofading in the back like but
being in that room and being theone to tell the story of our
work is so important. Decidingto do that is a huge transfer.
Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson (26:14):
It is, it is for sure, and you know,
being content within yourselfthat you are able to articulate
it in a way that makes sense toyour audience, but also is true
to you 100%
Indra Klavins (26:29):
thank you for including that so important, so
rich. Julian, I'm so gratefullike you know, we are new
friends. I'm so grateful thatyou've joined me here today and
trusted me for this. I'm gladyou asked well, and thank you
for joining us. And goodnessgracious me and my messy stuff,
I hope you all got somethinggood out of it as well. And I
hope you join us next time whenwe cover another topic for the
(26:52):
messy middle bye, everyone bye,thanks for taking time with us
in the messy middle word ofmouth remains most powerful way
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
you, we'd love it. If you'dsubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite app, download a fewepisodes and share it with
someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
(27:13):
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore?
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
or in the show notes, thank youfor joining us on this journey.
This work is better when we doit together, until next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com