Hey friends! In today’s episode of Insights from the Couch, we’re exploring one of our favorite (and most handed-out!) psychological models—the Drama Triangle. If you've ever felt stuck in dysfunctional relationship dynamics, unsure why you're constantly the “rescuer,” “victim,” or “persecutor,” this one's for you. We break down how these roles silently fuel relational chaos and emotional suppression—and most importantly, how to get out.
We also introduce the Empowerment Triangle, the powerful antidote that helps you reclaim your agency and transform your relationships. We’re not here for surface-level chatter—we’re all about taking personal responsibility, getting real about what’s not working, and building healthier, more honest connections. So grab your coffee and settle in—we’re getting real about emotional growth, boundary-setting, and stepping into your truth.
Episode Highlights:
[0:02] - Welcome to Insights from the Couch and intro to "The Chat" community
[1:47] - Why we love teaching the Drama Triangle model
[3:24] - Defining the three core roles: victim, rescuer, and persecutor
[5:34] - The puppet-master energy of the victim role
[7:50] - The shift from victimhood to Creator mindset
[10:57] - Personal stories on family dynamics and feeling disempowered
[13:19] - How rescuers unknowingly uphold dysfunctional systems
[16:33] - Gender, parenting, and the over-functioning rescuer
[18:26] - Emotional discomfort and the fear that fuels rescuing
[22:46] - The persecutor: the role no one wants but everyone needs
[25:07] - Why breaking the triangle means risking being “the bad guy”
[27:56] - How emotional suppression drives the Drama Triangle
[32:54] - Shifting to the Empowerment Triangle: Creator, Coach, and Challenger
[35:51] - Taking personal accountability and validating our feelings
[38:24] - The difference between rescuing and coaching with compassion
[41:05] - How to offer support without enabling
[42:06] - Embracing the Challenger role to live in truth
[44:33] - Join our new community space “The Chat” at insightsfromthecouch.org
Links & Resources:
· Join the conversation and community at: https://www.insightsfromthecouch.org/the-chat
· Learn more about the Drama Triangle and Empowerment Triangle: The Power of TED* by David Emerald
· Recommended reading: The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck
If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!
Come hang out with us in The Chat, our free community for midlife women, where we keep the
conversation going at insightsfromthecouch.org/the-chat.
And don’t forget to
download our free guide 7 Skills to Master Midlife so you can stop living small, start taking action, and
live the life you really want at insightsfromthecouch.org/midlife-roadmap.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:02):
Sarah, Hi guys.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. This is where real
conversations meet real life,especially about midlife. We are
Colette and Laura, as many ofyou already know more, two
therapists who are going throughthe very same things as you at
this midlife stage. And so wejust want to let you know that
whether you're feeling stuckrestless, you want something
more and you just haven'tfigured out what it is. This is
(00:23):
a space for honestconversations, getting real,
digging deeper, and hopefullyfiguring it out and getting into
action. And because that's whatwe want for this podcast, we
have created a new space calledthe chat. Check out our website,
insights from the couch.org,where you can join the chat to
keep the conversation goingafter these podcasts. And it's a
(00:44):
space where we as women can alltalk about these issues openly,
safely, with curiosity andsupport. So don't forget to join
our community. We really want tobe here to support you at
insights from the couch.org thechat that's going to be so much
fun that we'll be able to fieldyour questions in real time. And
so today, we're going to getinto a really fascinating topic,
(01:07):
the Drama Triangle. If you'renew to this, hang on to your
seat, because it's going to blowyour mind. It's sort of the
hallmark model of dysfunctionalfamilies and dysfunctional
relationship patterns doesn'thave to be a family, oftentimes,
pertaining to addiction or COdependency, but anyone can run a
(01:29):
Drama Triangle on you and youdon't want to participate. So
we're going to talk aboutrecognizing if you're in one of
these unhealthy dynamics, andthen how to get out of it? The
answer being the empowermenttriangle. So let's dive in.
Laura Bowman (01:48):
Yeah, I love this.
I think this is one of the greatlessons that I got from my own
therapist. That was an ahamoment. And, and I think, I
think I give out the DramaTriangle, more than I probably
give out any other piece ofpsycho ed in my practice. Me
too, because a lot of times whenpeople come in, they're
captivated in a Drama Triangle,usually because somebody in
(02:12):
their life isn't changing or isdoing something to them, making
them feel something that theyfeel they're hooked, right?
Yeah, they're
Colette Fehr (02:25):
hooked. Liz Phillips, who is the big ifs and
if I O therapist, always says,Don't be hooked to someone
else's speed boat, because thenwhen that boat takes off, right,
and it's whipping around thewaves, you're getting dragged
drowned, maybe you come up forair for a minute, and then the
next thing you know, you'resubmerged. I agree with you,
Laura. I just give this to aclient the other day. I give
(02:47):
this out like Halloween candyfor almost 15 years. And no
matter how many times I've readthe original article, this
construct goes back to the 60s,and we're going to define it in
just a second. But no matter howmany times I read it? Every time
I read it, I'm like, oh yeah, ohyeah, be alert to this, because
these are the dynamics. Thewhole bottom line about this is
(03:08):
not just theoretical. Is thatwhen you're in these dynamics,
you're miserable. Everyone inthe dynamics miserable, and this
dynamic runs on guilt, lies andmanipulation. So let's get into
explaining to people what theDrama Triangle is.
Laura Bowman (03:24):
Yeah, I mean, like, maybe the best way we
explain it is by talking aboutthe different positions on the
triangle.
Colette Fehr (03:31):
And just to set the stage, this is developed by
a psychologist named Cartmanback in the 60s to identify how
originally it was how unhealthyfamilies operate. And these are
families in which so it can beany system, it can be a
friendship, it can be withcoworkers, it can be in your
marriage, or it could be afamily. But that's how it first
(03:55):
arose. And the whole structureof it, as we get into the roles,
is that all of these people havedifferent positions, the victim,
the rescuer and the persecutor,and that they're all playing a
psychological game together. Theconstruct runs because nobody is
(04:16):
willing to tell the truth abouttheir feelings or express their
feelings or take responsibilityfor themselves. So there's not
one bad guy, even though oneguy's called the persecutor.
There's Yeah, they're allkeeping this dynamic in the
triangle alive, and theirdepiction is an upside down
triangle with the victim at thebottom, because the victim's so
(04:39):
important. So let's start there,and I'll let you have the floor
on victimhood, not becauseyou're a victim,
Laura Bowman (04:46):
but I mean, everybody can find themselves
playing victim once in a whilein their lives. There are people
who tend to live there and in inthis triangle, the victim has
two different qualities. Theycan be an. Angry victim, feeling
like people did something tothem and it's so unfair, or
there's the pathetic victim, andpeople bounce between angry and
(05:10):
pathetic victim, but usuallypeople like, prefer one brand or
the other, and the victim kindof like, holds up the triangle
like the victim is the one whofeels like they've been wronged,
that they are going to get likeattention and that their needs
met by click, by like goingdeeper into victim.
Colette Fehr (05:34):
So the victim, to me, is, in a way, a puppet
master, because the victim, andthis is a pup, that's a great
way to put it, yeah, because thevictim is keeping the persecutor
and the rescuer dancing. Andlet's give an example in a
second. But what I just want tosay about the victim, first of
all, I hate the victim thing. Ireally hate it. I hate the
(05:56):
energy of victim. I don't likethe story. I don't like the
energy. I think it's one of themost psychologically unhealthy
things that a person can do. AndI'm not saying I've never been
there, either to your point,we've all been there, and they
all these roles. We have afavorite role from time to time.
But I think the goal of this,and us doing an episode on this,
(06:17):
is that if you're findingyourself getting pulled into one
of these patterns with someone,then the awareness that you're
in it, you want to snap out ofit, because it doesn't do any
good for anybody. But the victimthing to me is that, in order to
see doesn't mean something baddoesn't happen to you, don't
deserve to feel upset thatsomething bad has happened. Of
(06:38):
course, not. Everything's inyour control. However, we want
to shift the ideology of thevictim from other people. Did
this to me, life did this to me.
I have no locus of control, andthat tends to be a hallmark of
the victim, is that thingshappen to me. It's somebody
else's fault, and there'snothing I can do. And so anyone
who doesn't do what the victimwants to rescue them is seen as
(07:03):
the persecutor, or anybody whohas those unfair life advantages
that the victim thinks theyshould have had, or who, in any
way, you know, didn't do whatthey should have, or got good
fortune without working as hardas the victim. You know, it
could go on and on. That's apersecutor,
Laura Bowman (07:23):
but the whole thing in the victim is that
they're like, abdicating theirpersonal responsibility to take
action for creating the lifethat they want. And that is
like, if you were to, like, flipthe roles, and we'll talk about
the opposite of the DramaTriangle, which is the
empowerment dynamic. If you'reto flip the role of victim and
get out of it, it's the Creator.
When you start creating the lifethat you want, right?
Colette Fehr (07:49):
No matter what's happened to you,
Laura Bowman (07:50):
yeah, no matter what's happened to you, the role
of victim dissolves. I thinkabout this in my own life. I
don't like to talk about mybrother often, but I think about
him as angry victim a lot interms of, like, our
relationship, one of the thingsthat he always thought was that
he was, like, going to build myhouse, and for a lot of reasons,
(08:14):
we went into business together.
It never went well. I didn't usehim to build my house, and he
moved to another state, he hadall kinds of choices, like he
could have gone and gotten acontractor's license. He could
have started his own business.
He started some version of anown business, but in my story
with him, he's always thevictim, like I screwed him
(08:36):
somehow, right? Yeah, and itnegates all the power that he's
had in the last like 20 years todo like, whatever he's wanted to
do. It's a
Colette Fehr (08:47):
disempowerment strategy, because even if
something happens that'sdisappointing or creates
hardship or isn't what you wantor hope for, let's say someone
did wrong you, the longer youstay in the fact that you were
wronged, the less you takeresponsibility for your life and
do whatever it is you can do todeal with that situation to the
(09:09):
best of your ability. I mean, Ihate to even bring this up too,
but like, I'm thinking about mybrother, and now this is through
my parents, so maybe he wouldsay he didn't mean it this way,
but where he used to say thingslike, you know, why I had an
easier time in school and, like,he couldn't do blah, blah. I
(09:31):
mean, my brother's a genius, orthat I was mean to him when he
was five, and he would come inmy room when I was on the phone
with like, my boyfriend when Iwas in the 10th grade, and yeah,
I'd be like, get the fuck out,you little shit. He'd run in
naked, and I'd scream at himlike a normal 15 year old, or at
least, I think, a normal 15 yearold. But this was then later
(09:54):
given as like reasons why mybrother's life didn't launch in
some way, which if. That's true.
I'm hearing this through myparents. It's just ridiculous.
Number one and number two, like,Wow, talk about disempowerment,
whatever is not according toradical accountability, right?
And really taking responsibilitywhatever is not working in your
(10:15):
life is on you.
Laura Bowman (10:19):
Yes, and I hope that that comes through loud and
clear in our podcast, because Iwas just listening to one of our
episodes today where I said,like, the one of the first steps
is, like taking responsibilityfor your life. That's where the
power is, yeah, like nobodywant, who wants to live a life
of like, calcified victimhood,right? I mean, I think some
(10:40):
people get a tremendous amountout of it because it props up
their story. But who wants toreally be there and as a
therapist, and I think you wouldagree with us, we're constantly
trying to, like, help people outof victim if that's where
they're stuck,
Colette Fehr (10:57):
and see that they have agency. And why this is so
bad on a relational front, isthat oftentimes, somebody who's
been in victimhood their wholelife, it may have been part of
their family of origin, if theygrew up in an alcoholic, any
kind of addictive or any kind ofCO dependent family, which is a
lot of people, you know, thenthere is a belief of How unfair
(11:19):
something is, and somebody else,some designated person, a
parent, often or a spouse,should get me out of this. I'll
see in couples, sometimes aspouse will feel like their self
esteem isn't great becausethey're not having sex with
their partner. They're notgetting attention from their
partner. Is it normal to want tohave sex and feel important to
(11:40):
your partner, of course, but youcan't run your entire self
esteem on another person andblame them that you don't feel
good about yourself. That's arecipe for disaster. So I think
it goes way too big and way toodeep, and it is about
reclaiming, okay, I don't likewhat's happening here. I don't
like how I feel. It's abouttelling the truth about how you
(12:03):
feel, feeling your feelings,this is the way out, and then
assessing your choices based onthe reactions you get and the
facts as they are. But the wholething with the Drama Triangle
and this rescuer, persecutor,victim is that there's nobody's
telling the truth aboutemotions. It runs on lies,
(12:24):
emotional lies, distortions,manipulation, a lack of genuine
expression of feeling.
Laura Bowman (12:33):
Yeah. And a lot of times these systems, when they
finally do break apart, and youwould hope that they would, they
would, like, kind of healthrough, like, honest
conversation. They usuallydegrade into cut off. Yeah,
right, yeah. And that's the set.
That's the sad piece. Is likethat very few people, like
navigate this well to get to getout of them in a healthy
Colette Fehr (12:57):
way, right? And cut off means that you end a
relationship, you sever itcompletely. We'll see a lot of
that in therapy. It tends to beintergenerationally transmitted,
meaning, if there were cut offsearlier, people end
relationships when it feels toofraught to work through or too
intense, they just bail.
Laura Bowman (13:19):
Yeah, so should we talk about the rescuer? Because,
like, yeah, the rescuer is aproblem. That doesn't seem like
a problem, but the rescuer roleis huge. I think a lot of people
love the role, or think thatthey're like, the good guy, yep,
for being in rescue role. And I,I'll raise my hand on this. If
(13:41):
I've screwed this up, I havedefinitely tried to over rescue,
and it just sucks you right intothe triangle and in an alcoholic
family system, this is like theCO dependent personality who is,
like, really trying to buffereverybody from having to see
anything or feel anything, andlike spinning a bunch of plates,
(14:03):
yeah, having consequences,narrating the whole thing, like
it's just not that way, or, youknow, you don't see what you
see, and you don't feel what youfeel. So the rescuer really
holds the triangle up just asmuch as the victim, in some
ways, especially people who arejust committed to being a
rescuer.
Colette Fehr (14:25):
Yeah, and this is where also it goes on the lie
like the victim is saying it'syour job to do this. You need to
get me out of this. And I see acouple of things that really
fuel the rescuer engine. One ofthem is this belief that many
people grow up with that you'rea good person when you're a
helper. And I'm not sayingyou're not, but it goes too far.
(14:48):
And so people think, Oh, I'msupposed to help. If someone
asks me something, I'm not agood person. If I say no, right?
There are values for somepeople. They're religiously
linked, but to be. Being ahelper, and we're praised and
rewarded. The second thing is, Ithink a lot of people run their
own self esteem on that theyneed to be needed. That's how
(15:09):
they feel good about themselves.
Fortunately, I'm not in thatcategory. I have gotten sucked
into rescuer a lot, especiallywith my daughters, not to their
benefit or mine, and I too, amtrying to break out of it, but I
don't fall into the category oflike, Oh, I get off on being
needed, but a lot of people do.
(15:30):
They really do
Laura Bowman (15:31):
well, I think I'm, like, definitely recovering from
that. I've, I've taken thatstrategy to the end in a lot of
my relationships, and have hadluckily, lucky or unlucky for
me, have gotten to see how thatgoes. So that has like precious
little pull for me at this pointin my life, still with my kids.
(15:53):
I think I'll always be a littlethere with my kids, but outgrown
adults, not so much. So I thisis always like a goal, like a
blaring street sign. For me,when I see people coming in with
and very often the rescuer cancertainly be a man, and very
(16:13):
often is but this is very like,really synonymous with women and
the caretaking role. And when Isee a like a woman coming in,
accepting way too muchresponsibility for family
relationships or relationshipsin their life, you just know
she's operating from this partof the triangle.
Colette Fehr (16:33):
Yeah, I see a lot of men who fall into this, a
lot, so I definitely, I thinkthere's a lot of people that
fall into this, and you might bea rescuer in some relationships
and not others. But just toclarify this, this doesn't mean
that you're never supporting orhelping anyone or doing a nice
thing. It's when you abandonyourself, you do something that
isn't good for you. You'retaking on responsibilities that
(16:56):
don't belong to you, likeregulating someone else's
emotions, preventing someoneelse from having consequences.
You know, one of the examples inthe article is this guy who
lends his car even though itruins his job situation, because
the victim is demanding that heneeds to borrow a car. And it's
that wanting to be a goodperson, believing it's right to
(17:18):
help, believing that you're notgoing to be a good person if you
don't help. And also, I see thisfueled tremendously, and I know
you see this too by fear. Peopleare afraid, and they can't
tolerate the discomfort ofletting the victim sit in their
consequences. Yes, so we knowthis with kids, right? People
(17:39):
don't want their kid to get abad grade, they won't get into a
good college. What if the kid atschool is mean to them? What if
their kid isn't okay? It feelsintolerable. And in adult
relationships, what I see a lotis just the emotional contagion
of people who are even slightlyco dependent. They're so
activated by their partner beingupset, their partner being upset
(18:02):
means they're failing, or theirpartner being upset means they
should be doing something. Soit's all coming down to this
mistaken belief, too, that weshould always be in positive
emotion and in thesedysfunctional drama triangles,
that somebody's got to rescueand prevent everybody from
feeling badly. And that'sactually exactly what causes it
Laura Bowman (18:26):
that is such a great point. Like you just,
like, hit the nail on the head.
It's like that inability to sitwith emotion and feel feelings,
and it gets people stuck. And Iand I think there are certain
people that are just very I haveone son that like, really can't
handle when anybody's in a badmood, and he just is checking
and scanning, and I'm alwaystrying to give him skills to
(18:49):
cope with that, but it's just hecan't handle it. Yeah, and I
think there are a lot of peoplewho find it very intolerable to
be around people who are feelingstrong feelings, and they want
everybody to be okay, and theydon't care what piece of
themselves they have to abandonto make sure everybody's feeling
okay,
Colette Fehr (19:09):
right? Because of it's and this, people probably
know this to a degree, but it'sreally not altruistic. It's not
about helping. It's aboutavoiding the discomfort you feel
in yourself. It's about feelinggood, feeling needed, feeling
valuable. Many people are afraidnot to rescue or enable, because
they'll lose the relationship. Ihear constantly, people who grow
(19:33):
up from neglectful childhoods,who feel like if they don't have
a role, if they don't add value,they won't be loved. I
Laura Bowman (19:41):
resonate with that. You do, yeah, oh yeah. I
had that belief for like, Istill, you know, I think I've
even hinted at it in here whereit's, like, you know, having
radical belief of self is like,hard for me. I need evidence. I
need value. I need proof. Proofof worth very often. What do you
(20:03):
think
Colette Fehr (20:03):
that's from? Like, early childhood dynamics?
Laura Bowman (20:08):
I think I was definitely in a relationship
with my mom and my brother, andI've, I've talked about it
before in the podcast, where itwas like I was really wanted
around if I could be useful insome way, you know, like, I did
a lot of helping my mom regulateher emotions. I did a lot of,
like, being my brother'ssidekick. And like, if I could
(20:31):
provide value space was made forme, and I don't know is, and I
think I probably, like, pickedup on that very early, and then
wondered, like, if I'm not inthis job, am I still? Do? They
still kind of want me around,right? I This is what I think my
(20:51):
child mind was probably like,learning Exactly,
Colette Fehr (20:55):
yeah. And I think that's the exactly the kind of
dynamic we hear from clients,too. So then you grow up feeling
like, obviously you're sheddingthis, and have shed it to a
large degree, but you know, it'sa hard thing to let go of when
love really feels in your earlyyears like it's connected to the
(21:16):
role you provide and what you dofor others. So this, we're not
suggesting this is easy to getout of, but I do think it starts
small, you know, saying nofeeling your feelings. And we're
going to talk about that more ina minute, because I want to make
sure we also talk about thepersecutor.
Laura Bowman (21:36):
Love the persecutor. Yeah, yeah. Go for
it. Let's talk about the who isthe persecutor to the system.
Colette Fehr (21:43):
The persecutor is the bad guy. This is the person
who's blamed for what's notworking, and the person who
actually, ironically andinterestingly, in order to exit
the Drama Triangle, you have tobe willing. This is the escape
hatch place. You have to bewilling to be seen as the bad
(22:03):
guy. You have to be willing toplay that role. Doesn't mean you
are the bad guy, but the victimand maybe even the rescuer are
going to see you that waybecause the persecutor, maybe
it's the one who has donesomething wrong, let's say but
the bad guy in the DramaTriangle is really the person
who is refusing to rescue thevictim.
Laura Bowman (22:28):
Yeah, yeah. And let's just say that people like
think they can rescue themselvesout of a Drama Triangle. That's
the most. That's the, probablythe biggest thing I see in
therapy, people who think thatif they can rescue better,
they'll get themselves out of aDrama Triangle.
Colette Fehr (22:42):
You mean they rescue like the victim better,
then it'll be over.
Laura Bowman (22:46):
No, like, somehow they're going to be better,
yeah, like, rescue the victim,or like, they're going to do the
right the rescuer is going to dothe right thing. Be better. Do
it better. Communicate itbetter. And they're going to be
able to, like, save the victim,right? So neutralize the
persecutor, whatever it isthey're wanting to
Colette Fehr (23:04):
do right, like, right, prevent the adverse
consequences. So if it's achild, it's like, okay, I can do
it better. I will communicatewith the teacher. I'll be the my
kid can't do this, and this istoo much for my kid to handle. I
mean, listen, I don't thinkanyone would read about this and
say, Sign me up. I think it'slargely unconscious until we
(23:25):
make ourselves aware. But I knowas therapists, what we see so
much is people have just afoundationally distorted
perception of what they'reresponsible for with other
people they love. Yes, you know,it's not just the consequences
and rescuing someone who is anaddict and they can't pay their
(23:46):
bill, and you go pay and you'reenabling. It could look like
that, but it also can be thatyou don't speak your truth,
because it might upset yourpartner, even though all you're
doing is telling the truth abouthow you feel, and then you're
resentful and angry and youblame them or someone else. So
(24:06):
this also brings up a key point,which is that people are not one
fixed thing in this DramaTriangle. People move around
positions, and you might be arescuer with one friend, and you
might be an angry victim in yourmarriage,
Laura Bowman (24:21):
or you can shuffle around these roles in one
scenario just to get differentneeds met. Like, oh, if I, if I
fall into victims, certainlysomebody will come and rescue
me. You know, people try allstrategies like, make it work,
because, to your point, like,nobody wants to move to
persecutor and be that seen asthe bad guy, right? So like to
(24:43):
to leave a relationship, youhave to, you have to move to
persecutor and risk being seenas the bad
Colette Fehr (24:49):
guy. And that's part of why the underlying
psychological dynamics are bigreason why people stay, yeah,
big reason handle it. No, you'reseen. That way often by society,
you hurt someone, you broketheir heart. You're seen that
way by the person who doesn'twant you to leave.
Laura Bowman (25:07):
How many times have you heard in therapy
Colette where somebody says, Ijust wish they'd do something?
So I had, like, a reason, so itdidn't like I could leave. Yeah,
I wish they'd cheat. So I
Colette Fehr (25:17):
had a reason. Oh, I hear it all the time and and
we've talked about this before,I wish they'd just die and I
don't have to be the person feelit. Yeah, I hear that all the
time. And these are not callousor unemotional sociopaths. These
are people that so don't want tobe the one to hurt someone, to
rock the boat, to leave, to havepeople look at them and thank
God What an asshole. They'drather stay in something that
(25:41):
makes them miserable and hopethe person dies. So it takes
balls to be seen as thepersecutor. But the reason it's
so important is that in orderfor the Drama Triangle to
collapse, which doesn't mean therelationships are effortless,
but it does mean they'rehealthy, is when people tell the
truth about what's happening.
They may have differentperceptions of the truth, but
(26:03):
you whether anyone is willing tolisten or not, you speak your
truth. You feel your feelings.
You don't suppress them, becauseemotional suppression is a huge
part of the Drama Triangle.
People want to feel the positiveemotions, and often want to
suppress the negative emotions,but in order to feel the
(26:25):
positive, you have to also feelthe negatives emotions are
giving you messages. So let'sjust use like a common scenario
where someone doesn't like afriendship that their spouse has
with another person. They itbothers them, and, you know, one
partner dismisses it and islike, You're ridiculous. There's
nothing happening here. And theyeven get sort of ego defensive,
(26:47):
like, how could you? How dareyou suggest I'm not doing
anything wrong, you know? Sothat other partner either can,
like, see themselves, you can bean angry victim in your head.
Well, this is bullshit, and Idon't like it, and I'm mad, but
I'm not going to say anything,because it's not going to go
well. But I'm going to eithersubvert this person behind the
(27:08):
scenes, look in their phone, I'mgoing to go do it myself. I'm
going to go flirt with people,right? All kinds of passive
aggressive behaviors. All ofthat is Drama Triangle, because
then, in that case, your spouseis both the persecutor, you
know, and the rescuer, if theywon't rescue you with their
behavior. But if you're breakingout of the pattern, you're
(27:31):
saying, Look, when you do this,this is how this makes me feel.
It doesn't work for me. It's aboundary for me. I'm not saying
you're doing anything wrong orthat you're a bad person, but I
am trying to tell you how I feelabout your behavior, and if
you're not going to listen, thenhere's what I'm going to do. As
a result, the whole trianglecollapses when that feelings are
(27:51):
expressed and the truth is told,
Laura Bowman (27:56):
ding, ding, ding.
Like, yes, and this is like,your book, right? I mean, this
is, like, the reason why it's soimportant to, like, tune into
feelings, know what you feel,and then be able to express them
clearly. And sometimes, you knowyou are risking the
relationship. Yep, you know,sometimes your choices aren't
that great, but it nobody wantsto live in this triangle. You do
(28:18):
that. You live in this trianglefor long enough you're going to
be in one of our offices, yeah,because it becomes so untenable,
Colette Fehr (28:27):
yeah, and you're miserable. I mean, that's, I
think the biggest thing is thatpeople, maybe they're numbing
out through some kind of likeaddictive behavior or
distraction behavior or whateverit is, but it is not healthy,
mentally or physically, and it'sterrible for relationships not
to feel and express feelings.
It's really foundationallyimportant to the human
experience, and
Laura Bowman (28:50):
it's one of those things that, like, once you
learn this, this is like, one ofthose cornerstones of being an
adult and being a reallyfunctional adult and attracting
really good relationships. Ifyou can be like feel your
feelings and communicate themhonestly, you're going to
attract a whole higher level setof people, and
Colette Fehr (29:10):
you're going to feel so good inside, maybe at
the beginning it will feeluncomfortable, and sometimes you
won't get a good response, andyou'll get rejected and but you
you're going to start to seethat actually you can handle it,
and that gives you moreinformation about what people
will and won't do. I think themost freeing thing for me, just
(29:31):
to segue before we get intoempowerment, I think the most
freeing thing for me that I'velet go of from Drama Triangle,
is not feeling like I have tocare, take other people's
emotions, or feeling responsiblefor other people's emotions, and
this is part of why. So youknow, if somebody is upset, I
(29:51):
can care, I can be supportiveand loving, but I don't feel
like, oh no, oh no, or it's myjob to make them feel better. Or
if they feel bad. Lee, it'sbecause of me. I I'm separate.
They are the primary caretakerof their own individual system
and their own feelings. And if Ilove them, I can be there to
(30:11):
support and to reassure and tocomfort, but I'm not responsible
for it. That is free, a
Laura Bowman (30:18):
huge journey. And I'm like, I'm still on that one
I've like, I said, I'veextricated myself from doing
that with a lot of my adultrelationships, my youngest
children, like they are. Istruggle a little bit to like,
not feel the visceral sense oflike, needing or wanting to jump
(30:39):
in, but I refrain a lot more.
Like, one of the things I say tomyself, and I say to my clients
a lot, is like, give peopletheir lives back. That's a
rescuer strategy of like, do nottry to go in there and run
people's lives thinking thatsomehow you're going to do it
better. You're going to savethem from themselves. Let people
feel the gravity of their ownlife and solve their own
(31:02):
problems and create their ownsolutions
Colette Fehr (31:07):
Exactly. And just to be clear, I really, I think
it's a big shift, but I stillstruggle with this too. You
know, I feel, I feel like Ireally am an empath, and I feel
things very deeply, and it canbe hard when you're wired that
way, not to step into this role.
And I played this role to somedegree in my family system when
I was young, and I think I feltvery effective, because I could
(31:30):
understand people and understanddynamics and feel what they were
feeling and put words to it. Ithink I felt like I played this
role a lot for male friends whenI was younger, for female
friends, for my parents, for,you know, so it's not like, oh,
I need to be needed, but I justfelt a source of effectiveness.
Laura Bowman (31:52):
I love that you said that, because I want to
clarify that, like there wassome of that with me too, like,
you know, not only needing tofeel useful, like, I guess that
was part of it, or feeling likeI wasn't gonna be loved if I
wasn't useful, but that Iactually felt very potent and
very effective, and that therewas something heady in that. So
I probably like contributed tomy own role as much as anybody
(32:13):
put me there,
Colette Fehr (32:14):
right? Me too. You feel successful. You feel
powerful. It's like, Oh, I'm sogood at this, right? We have,
like, something you're good at,but what happens is, it can just
walk you into a lot of COdependent relationships,
because, you know, narcissistslove a personality like mine,
which is why I've had so manytangos. You know that the
(32:36):
empathic nature, all thosequalities, and it's just a
perfect dance. It's easy to getsucked into, but I think
awareness is the key. And thenand feeling your feelings,
speaking up and telling thetruth. And then let's talk a
little bit about how these rolesshift in the empowerment
triangles.
Laura Bowman (32:54):
Because I love this. I love the empowerment
triangle. So these are the ifyou were to flip the role from
like victim to the healthyversion. We'd already talked
about that. So the opposite ofvictim is the Creator. I mean,
that's just such a powerfulmessage to myself, that whenever
I get into the victim state ofmind, I'm always I say it a lot,
(33:16):
even with anxiety or worry orpoor me, I'm like, out of my
head and into my hands. Like,what can I build? What can I
create? What can I do? Not tolike, distract myself from my
emotions all the time, but togo, okay, here I am. I'm stuck,
right? I feel like shit rightnow. But when you move into
(33:38):
creator, like, you just it's itunlocks something. I
Colette Fehr (33:43):
agree and I think it's okay. I'm struggling, but I
have choices. I have choice.
It's remembering that you havechoices. And you know, another
thing, going back to ScottPeck's book, right? What is it
called? Like the road lesstraveled. So good, so good. I
need to reread that I haven'tread it further along the road,
less traveled. And okay, well,that one I just loved. It's like
(34:03):
every sentence is brilliant. Soif any of you haven't read it,
it's like an oldie, but goodie.
But, you know, he talks abouthow some people, and we see this
as therapists, so blamethemselves. They overtake
responsibility, and some peopletake no responsibility. So I
used to be the type that I wouldoverly blame myself. I see
(34:24):
everything as I feel like I haveso much locus of control.
Everything was my fault, right?
And also this can be innercritic, wired, but now I don't
beat myself up. I've reallychanged the way I talk to
myself, but what I do when Icatch myself feeling victim,
like a victim. First of all, Idon't punish myself for that. I
acknowledge it that, like thissituation sucks, there's a part
(34:44):
of me that really does feel likeit's not fair, right? It doesn't
feel good. And I validate my ownemotions, because that tends to
allow them to like, exist andand expire. They get expressed
and then they drift and. Then Ialso am quick to say, Okay, what
part of this, if any, can I takeaccountability for, not from a
(35:04):
place of blame and self loathingand criticism piling on, but
from a place of like, Okay, howdid I play a part in what
unfolded? And usually, there issome way. Obviously, if a tragic
thing happens, you know, you'rein like a plane crash. I mean,
I'm not, you didn't participatein that, right? But there's
almost always in some of thesesituations, something that's
(35:28):
recognizing, even in that itwould be, look, life has a
certain degree of chance, and Iwas living and a bad
circumstance happened to me,like, I got on the plane knowing
the best, doing the do most duediligence I could and like a
terrible thing happened. Butthen back to the locus of
(35:48):
control. Okay, what do I do now?
Laura Bowman (35:51):
Yeah, well, you die, right in that example, but
if you
Colette Fehr (35:55):
survive, not if you're an 11 a like our friend
in India, that like, God, didyou see that? Oh, I've, I've
watched it because I have aserious flying issue, as you
know, flying phobia. I feel likeI'm in recovery, and I've come a
long way. But every time thereare these incidents, I get
knocked back a little. I was inthe air at the same time, and
(36:16):
actually on takeoff, I had thatvery thought, and I was kind of
chiding myself for being socatastrophic and how silly it
was. And then I landed. I'mlike, oh, it just wasn't my
turn. And now I've heard peopleare wanting, everyone wants to
sit in 11 a and people are like,saying they'll pay more for that
seat.
Laura Bowman (36:36):
Did he like propel himself out of the exit? No, no.
Colette Fehr (36:40):
I read his I've read everything. Oh, my God,
let's talk later about Yeah. Soanyway, any random example, but
the idea is to get back intoOkay, I am not a victim, even if
something happened to me, that'snot fair. I'm not a victim
because I have choices now. Andthose choices are, how do I
respond? Yeah, to what'shappened?
Laura Bowman (36:58):
I think that's the greatest question. Is, like, I
have choices. What are mychoices? Right? I mean, I say
that to clients at least 10times a day. So what are your
choices? You know, right?
Because you've got to always beoriented. It's
Colette Fehr (37:11):
poker. Maybe you got a shitty hand, but it's
going to be how you play thehand. There's always a way to
play your
Laura Bowman (37:16):
hand. There's always a way to play your hand,
but now when to hold them andknow when to fold them, know
when to walk away and know whento run.
Colette Fehr (37:26):
Okay, so many times that I haven't. So let's
talk about rescuer, because thisis a big one in the empowerment
triangle. The rescuer is acoach, and this is what we
alluded to before, which is notthat we say, Oh, screw off. It's
your problem. Those are youremotions. That's your choice.
Like, I don't care about you. Imean, you can do that, but when
(37:49):
you love someone, you can be acoach, you can encourage. You
can support, hey, I care aboutyou. You can have boundaries
that are healthy for you anddon't cause you to self abandon.
Maybe a friend's going through ahard time, and it doesn't cost
you too much to say, hey, youknow, call me anytime if you
need to talk. And that's a wayyou can support and you're not
taking responsibility for thatfriend's feelings or
(38:12):
circumstances, and maybe you'reable to coach her a little
through something that you alsowent through just a healthier
way to support without fixing ortaking responsibility.
Laura Bowman (38:24):
Yeah, and coaching, surreal art form. I
mean, coaching really happenswhen you're standing outside the
system. You're really likerespecting the autonomy of the
person, and you're reallyfacilitating them, getting the
answers from themselves, yes,you know, and you we see this go
wrong, and counseling and incoaching, where people, like,
(38:47):
I'm in a coaching program rightnow, which is, like the funniest
thing, because a lot of thesewomen, I think they thought they
were there to provide answersfor people, you know, because,
like, they were gonna, like,tell people what to do. Because
this is, like, a very satisfyingrole sometimes. And coaching is
not that, you know, it's a lotof motivational interviewing,
it's a lot of rolling withresistance. It's a lot of like,
(39:10):
asking well placed questions,and like, I think, much to their
chagrin, it's like, oh, shit,this isn't what I was signing up
for. Yeah.
Colette Fehr (39:19):
And I think a lot of therapists struggle with that
too. I agree,
Laura Bowman (39:23):
but I I always use the metaphor of like in this is
like, it's the differencebetween showing somebody how to
serve a ball, like, I'm going toshow you, I'm going to, like,
practice with you, I'm going tomodel it, or whatever, versus
taking the ball from thestudent, yeah, and like, doing
it for them. Well,
Colette Fehr (39:41):
it's, there's an expression, and of course, let's
blame menopause. I can'tremember how it goes, but it's
like, Teach a man to, like, takea man fishing and you give him
one meal, but teach a man tofish and he eats for life. I
don't think that's it, but it'ssomething like
Laura Bowman (39:56):
that. I know exactly. Yeah, you're right.
You're right. Same thing. It'sthe same. Same thing, yeah,
yeah. But most people can'tsettle with themselves, of,
like, the process, of like,being with somebody to coach. So
they end up, like, ripping theball out of their hand and,
like, let me do it, or I'm gonnajust catch the damn fish for
Colette Fehr (40:14):
you. Or they want to feel needed, or their ego
gets involved and they likebeing the person. I mean,
there's a lot of that. Yeah,there's so people are fascinated
to know that, you know, we'renot in the business of giving
any advice. You know, there aretimes that it's appropriate to
provide your opinion, but to bevery clear that that might be
(40:35):
your opinion, and thatultimately, people have to
choose what they do with theirown lives, and mostly it is
trying to help people get attheir own truths. Because what
is right for me isn't going tobe right for 10 other
Laura Bowman (40:48):
people. Yeah? And I do the same thing, like when I
offer an opinion in therapy, Iwill say, Listen, you're going
to have to play this the way youfeel it I said. But what I'm
going to say right now is justme. I'm a woman with an opinion.
Yep, take it for whatever it'sworth. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (41:05):
no. Impact. I love that expression exactly, but you
got
Laura Bowman (41:09):
to separate yourself, because I'm not here
to tell people how to runthings. No, no, no. I don't want
that responsibility,
Colette Fehr (41:15):
right? And also, we know how delicate and
damaging that can be, thatthere's really is such an
intersectionality of every humanbeing, their personality, their
family, their race, theirethnicity, their age, that like
to be offering solutions. Idon't care who you are. It's
just ridiculous. It'soverstepping, and it's not
(41:36):
helpful. It's not helpful.
Ultimately, people have toconnect with their own power and
agency. And so just to finish upwith the persecutor, you know,
it's really, I don't rememberwhat the guy, it's the
Challenger, okay? Because I wasgoing to say it's the truth
teller. It's just somebody whosays, But same thing, same as
somebody who says, I'm not goingto do this crap. I'm going to
just say, what is I'm going tochallenge unhealthy dynamics,
(41:59):
and I'm gonna live my life. I'mnot gonna blame but I'm not
gonna be quiet either,
Laura Bowman (42:06):
as a powerful, powerful person in the system.
And I like, I love those people,because I think they just model
how it it can be, yep. And I tryto be more like that in my life.
Me too.
Colette Fehr (42:19):
Yeah. And I was going to say, I think what we
want to leave everyone withtoday is, yeah, this is even
motivating me, because I thinkthis is where I have tried to
move to being the challenger ina healthy way, you know, healthy
version of the Challenger,someone who says, I'm not going
to blame you. I'm not going tomake you the bad guy, but I'm
(42:40):
not going to shrink and cowerand abandon myself, either or
play these dysfunctional gameswhere we all pretend or we lie
or we rescue I'm going to standin my own truth. I'm going to
say it, and then you're going todo what you're going to do, and
I can hold that. So I think whatwe want to leave you all with,
too, is that anyone can move inthis direction. This isn't about
(43:04):
you have to have had this kindof empowerment in childhood. I
think most people didn't.
There's not that many perfectlyhealthy systems, or we wouldn't
have jobs. But it is somethingyou can develop the capacity for
today, and it really does startagain with small actions.
Examine your relationships. Payattention to how you feel around
(43:25):
certain people in your life whoare close to you, who do you not
feel like you can tell the truthabout your feelings, and then
what do you say to yourselfabout why you can't? Are you
blaming someone else that youcan't? Because that's what I
hear. Oh, I would say, but theway he or she reacts, no, that's
Drama Triangle. Or he or shecouldn't handle it right, right?
(43:45):
Or, well, that will only createthis, this and this, okay,
Unknown (43:51):
which I can't handle,
Colette Fehr (43:54):
right, and maybe, but that's what we've got if
we're gonna be in the healthychallenger role, somebody who
tells the truth and feelsfeelings. We have to develop
that emotional muscle totolerate some of the discomfort,
to do it, and then knowing we'regonna feel more powerful, we're
gonna be more clear, we're gonnafeel healthier. You're gonna
(44:15):
attract better relationshipsbecause you don't collude with
this bullshit.
Laura Bowman (44:20):
Yeah, 100% like that. That is the outcome.
Because when you get into thatchallenger role, like, and you
don't accept living in the DramaTriangle, like, you'll just kick
on healthy people out. It won'tlast. Yeah, it won't
Colette Fehr (44:33):
work exactly, exactly. So this is a beautiful
place to end on, I think. And,you know, I encourage all of you
guys to read more about this andalso to check out our website.
Like we said at the beginning ofthe episode, we really are
building community this yearthat is like the word of the
(44:54):
year. Laura and I already have agreat community with each other,
but we want to build that withyou, too. People, and we want to
have these conversations afterthe episode. You know, we want
to hear what you think. And somany of you have emailed us and
asked us questions when we seeyou or text us things, but this
chat that you can find on ourwebsite, insights from the
(45:15):
couch.org We're just calling itthe chat, you know, this is
going to be a way that we canall share our voices and our
stories and ask questions andget curious and learn and grow
together. So join us there.
Laura Bowman (45:27):
We're too old to not like, say the true thing. I
mean, I know I am like, I don'thave a need to like, patience
for it anymore, and all I wantto do is, like, talk about the
real stuff. So let's do thattogether.
Colette Fehr (45:39):
Yes, let's be anti Drama Triangle and all about
empowerment triangle in thechat. All right, thanks
everyone. We'll see you nexttime, and we hope you got some
great insights from our couch.
Bye.
Sarah, Hi guys.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. This is where real
conversations meet real life,especially about midlife. We are
Colette and Laura, as many ofyou already know more, two
therapists who are going throughthe very same things as you at
this midlife stage. And so wejust want to let you know that
whether you're feeling stuckrestless, you want something
more and you just haven'tfigured out what it is. This is
(00:23):
a space for honestconversations, getting real,
digging deeper, and hopefullyfiguring it out and getting into
action. And because that's whatwe want for this podcast, we
have created a new space calledthe chat. Check out our website,
insights from the couch.org,where you can join the chat to
keep the conversation goingafter these podcasts. And it's a
(00:44):
space where we as women can alltalk about these issues openly,
safely, with curiosity andsupport. So don't forget to join
our community. We really want tobe here to support you at
insights from the couch.org thechat that's going to be so much
fun that we'll be able to fieldyour questions in real time. And
so today, we're going to getinto a really fascinating topic,
(01:07):
the Drama Triangle. If you'renew to this, hang on to your
seat, because it's going to blowyour mind. It's sort of the
hallmark model of dysfunctionalfamilies and dysfunctional
relationship patterns doesn'thave to be a family, oftentimes,
pertaining to addiction or COdependency, but anyone can run a
(01:29):
Drama Triangle on you and youdon't want to participate. So
we're going to talk aboutrecognizing if you're in one of
these unhealthy dynamics, andthen how to get out of it? The
answer being the empowermenttriangle. So let's dive in.
Laura Bowman (01:48):
Yeah, I love this.
I think this is one of the greatlessons that I got from my own
therapist. That was an ahamoment. And, and I think, I
think I give out the DramaTriangle, more than I probably
give out any other piece ofpsycho ed in my practice. Me
too, because a lot of times whenpeople come in, they're
captivated in a Drama Triangle,usually because somebody in
(02:12):
their life isn't changing or isdoing something to them, making
them feel something that theyfeel they're hooked, right?
Yeah, they're
Colette Fehr (02:25):
hooked. Liz Phillips, who is the big ifs and
if I O therapist, always says,Don't be hooked to someone
else's speed boat, because thenwhen that boat takes off, right,
and it's whipping around thewaves, you're getting dragged
drowned, maybe you come up forair for a minute, and then the
next thing you know, you'resubmerged. I agree with you,
Laura. I just give this to aclient the other day. I give
(02:47):
this out like Halloween candyfor almost 15 years. And no
matter how many times I've readthe original article, this
construct goes back to the 60s,and we're going to define it in
just a second. But no matter howmany times I read it? Every time
I read it, I'm like, oh yeah, ohyeah, be alert to this, because
these are the dynamics. Thewhole bottom line about this is
(03:08):
not just theoretical. Is thatwhen you're in these dynamics,
you're miserable. Everyone inthe dynamics miserable, and this
dynamic runs on guilt, lies andmanipulation. So let's get into
explaining to people what theDrama Triangle is.
Laura Bowman (03:24):
Yeah, I mean, like, maybe the best way we
explain it is by talking aboutthe different positions on the
triangle.
Colette Fehr (03:31):
And just to set the stage, this is developed by
a psychologist named Cartmanback in the 60s to identify how
originally it was how unhealthyfamilies operate. And these are
families in which so it can beany system, it can be a
friendship, it can be withcoworkers, it can be in your
marriage, or it could be afamily. But that's how it first
(03:55):
arose. And the whole structureof it, as we get into the roles,
is that all of these people havedifferent positions, the victim,
the rescuer and the persecutor,and that they're all playing a
psychological game together. Theconstruct runs because nobody is
(04:16):
willing to tell the truth abouttheir feelings or express their
feelings or take responsibilityfor themselves. So there's not
one bad guy, even though oneguy's called the persecutor.
There's Yeah, they're allkeeping this dynamic in the
triangle alive, and theirdepiction is an upside down
triangle with the victim at thebottom, because the victim's so
(04:39):
important. So let's start there,and I'll let you have the floor
on victimhood, not becauseyou're a victim,
Laura Bowman (04:46):
but I mean, everybody can find themselves
playing victim once in a whilein their lives. There are people
who tend to live there and in inthis triangle, the victim has
two different qualities. Theycan be an. Angry victim, feeling
like people did something tothem and it's so unfair, or
there's the pathetic victim, andpeople bounce between angry and
(05:10):
pathetic victim, but usuallypeople like, prefer one brand or
the other, and the victim kindof like, holds up the triangle
like the victim is the one whofeels like they've been wronged,
that they are going to get likeattention and that their needs
met by click, by like goingdeeper into victim.
Colette Fehr (05:34):
So the victim, to me, is, in a way, a puppet
master, because the victim, andthis is a pup, that's a great
way to put it, yeah, because thevictim is keeping the persecutor
and the rescuer dancing. Andlet's give an example in a
second. But what I just want tosay about the victim, first of
all, I hate the victim thing. Ireally hate it. I hate the
(05:56):
energy of victim. I don't likethe story. I don't like the
energy. I think it's one of themost psychologically unhealthy
things that a person can do. AndI'm not saying I've never been
there, either to your point,we've all been there, and they
all these roles. We have afavorite role from time to time.
But I think the goal of this,and us doing an episode on this,
(06:17):
is that if you're findingyourself getting pulled into one
of these patterns with someone,then the awareness that you're
in it, you want to snap out ofit, because it doesn't do any
good for anybody. But the victimthing to me is that, in order to
see doesn't mean something baddoesn't happen to you, don't
deserve to feel upset thatsomething bad has happened. Of
(06:38):
course, not. Everything's inyour control. However, we want
to shift the ideology of thevictim from other people. Did
this to me, life did this to me.
I have no locus of control, andthat tends to be a hallmark of
the victim, is that thingshappen to me. It's somebody
else's fault, and there'snothing I can do. And so anyone
who doesn't do what the victimwants to rescue them is seen as
(07:03):
the persecutor, or anybody whohas those unfair life advantages
that the victim thinks theyshould have had, or who, in any
way, you know, didn't do whatthey should have, or got good
fortune without working as hardas the victim. You know, it
could go on and on. That's apersecutor,
Laura Bowman (07:23):
but the whole thing in the victim is that
they're like, abdicating theirpersonal responsibility to take
action for creating the lifethat they want. And that is
like, if you were to, like, flipthe roles, and we'll talk about
the opposite of the DramaTriangle, which is the
empowerment dynamic. If you'reto flip the role of victim and
get out of it, it's the Creator.
When you start creating the lifethat you want, right?
Colette Fehr (07:49):
No matter what's happened to you,
Laura Bowman (07:50):
yeah, no matter what's happened to you, the role
of victim dissolves. I thinkabout this in my own life. I
don't like to talk about mybrother often, but I think about
him as angry victim a lot interms of, like, our
relationship, one of the thingsthat he always thought was that
he was, like, going to build myhouse, and for a lot of reasons,
(08:14):
we went into business together.
It never went well. I didn't usehim to build my house, and he
moved to another state, he hadall kinds of choices, like he
could have gone and gotten acontractor's license. He could
have started his own business.
He started some version of anown business, but in my story
with him, he's always thevictim, like I screwed him
(08:36):
somehow, right? Yeah, and itnegates all the power that he's
had in the last like 20 years todo like, whatever he's wanted to
do. It's a
Colette Fehr (08:47):
disempowerment strategy, because even if
something happens that'sdisappointing or creates
hardship or isn't what you wantor hope for, let's say someone
did wrong you, the longer youstay in the fact that you were
wronged, the less you takeresponsibility for your life and
do whatever it is you can do todeal with that situation to the
(09:09):
best of your ability. I mean, Ihate to even bring this up too,
but like, I'm thinking about mybrother, and now this is through
my parents, so maybe he wouldsay he didn't mean it this way,
but where he used to say thingslike, you know, why I had an
easier time in school and, like,he couldn't do blah, blah. I
(09:31):
mean, my brother's a genius, orthat I was mean to him when he
was five, and he would come inmy room when I was on the phone
with like, my boyfriend when Iwas in the 10th grade, and yeah,
I'd be like, get the fuck out,you little shit. He'd run in
naked, and I'd scream at himlike a normal 15 year old, or at
least, I think, a normal 15 yearold. But this was then later
(09:54):
given as like reasons why mybrother's life didn't launch in
some way, which if. That's true.
I'm hearing this through myparents. It's just ridiculous.
Number one and number two, like,Wow, talk about disempowerment,
whatever is not according toradical accountability, right?
And really taking responsibilitywhatever is not working in your
(10:15):
life is on you.
Laura Bowman (10:19):
Yes, and I hope that that comes through loud and
clear in our podcast, because Iwas just listening to one of our
episodes today where I said,like, the one of the first steps
is, like taking responsibilityfor your life. That's where the
power is, yeah, like nobodywant, who wants to live a life
of like, calcified victimhood,right? I mean, I think some
(10:40):
people get a tremendous amountout of it because it props up
their story. But who wants toreally be there and as a
therapist, and I think you wouldagree with us, we're constantly
trying to, like, help people outof victim if that's where
they're stuck,
Colette Fehr (10:57):
and see that they have agency. And why this is so
bad on a relational front, isthat oftentimes, somebody who's
been in victimhood their wholelife, it may have been part of
their family of origin, if theygrew up in an alcoholic, any
kind of addictive or any kind ofCO dependent family, which is a
lot of people, you know, thenthere is a belief of How unfair
(11:19):
something is, and somebody else,some designated person, a
parent, often or a spouse,should get me out of this. I'll
see in couples, sometimes aspouse will feel like their self
esteem isn't great becausethey're not having sex with
their partner. They're notgetting attention from their
partner. Is it normal to want tohave sex and feel important to
(11:40):
your partner, of course, but youcan't run your entire self
esteem on another person andblame them that you don't feel
good about yourself. That's arecipe for disaster. So I think
it goes way too big and way toodeep, and it is about
reclaiming, okay, I don't likewhat's happening here. I don't
like how I feel. It's abouttelling the truth about how you
(12:03):
feel, feeling your feelings,this is the way out, and then
assessing your choices based onthe reactions you get and the
facts as they are. But the wholething with the Drama Triangle
and this rescuer, persecutor,victim is that there's nobody's
telling the truth aboutemotions. It runs on lies,
(12:24):
emotional lies, distortions,manipulation, a lack of genuine
expression of feeling.
Laura Bowman (12:33):
Yeah. And a lot of times these systems, when they
finally do break apart, and youwould hope that they would, they
would, like, kind of healthrough, like, honest
conversation. They usuallydegrade into cut off. Yeah,
right, yeah. And that's the set.
That's the sad piece. Is likethat very few people, like
navigate this well to get to getout of them in a healthy
Colette Fehr (12:57):
way, right? And cut off means that you end a
relationship, you sever itcompletely. We'll see a lot of
that in therapy. It tends to beintergenerationally transmitted,
meaning, if there were cut offsearlier, people end
relationships when it feels toofraught to work through or too
intense, they just bail.
Laura Bowman (13:19):
Yeah, so should we talk about the rescuer? Because,
like, yeah, the rescuer is aproblem. That doesn't seem like
a problem, but the rescuer roleis huge. I think a lot of people
love the role, or think thatthey're like, the good guy, yep,
for being in rescue role. And I,I'll raise my hand on this. If
(13:41):
I've screwed this up, I havedefinitely tried to over rescue,
and it just sucks you right intothe triangle and in an alcoholic
family system, this is like theCO dependent personality who is,
like, really trying to buffereverybody from having to see
anything or feel anything, andlike spinning a bunch of plates,
(14:03):
yeah, having consequences,narrating the whole thing, like
it's just not that way, or, youknow, you don't see what you
see, and you don't feel what youfeel. So the rescuer really
holds the triangle up just asmuch as the victim, in some
ways, especially people who arejust committed to being a
rescuer.
Colette Fehr (14:25):
Yeah, and this is where also it goes on the lie
like the victim is saying it'syour job to do this. You need to
get me out of this. And I see acouple of things that really
fuel the rescuer engine. One ofthem is this belief that many
people grow up with that you'rea good person when you're a
helper. And I'm not sayingyou're not, but it goes too far.
(14:48):
And so people think, Oh, I'msupposed to help. If someone
asks me something, I'm not agood person. If I say no, right?
There are values for somepeople. They're religiously
linked, but to be. Being ahelper, and we're praised and
rewarded. The second thing is, Ithink a lot of people run their
own self esteem on that theyneed to be needed. That's how
(15:09):
they feel good about themselves.
Fortunately, I'm not in thatcategory. I have gotten sucked
into rescuer a lot, especiallywith my daughters, not to their
benefit or mine, and I too, amtrying to break out of it, but I
don't fall into the category oflike, Oh, I get off on being
needed, but a lot of people do.
(15:30):
They really do
Laura Bowman (15:31):
well, I think I'm, like, definitely recovering from
that. I've, I've taken thatstrategy to the end in a lot of
my relationships, and have hadluckily, lucky or unlucky for
me, have gotten to see how thatgoes. So that has like precious
little pull for me at this pointin my life, still with my kids.
(15:53):
I think I'll always be a littlethere with my kids, but outgrown
adults, not so much. So I thisis always like a goal, like a
blaring street sign. For me,when I see people coming in with
and very often the rescuer cancertainly be a man, and very
(16:13):
often is but this is very like,really synonymous with women and
the caretaking role. And when Isee a like a woman coming in,
accepting way too muchresponsibility for family
relationships or relationshipsin their life, you just know
she's operating from this partof the triangle.
Colette Fehr (16:33):
Yeah, I see a lot of men who fall into this, a
lot, so I definitely, I thinkthere's a lot of people that
fall into this, and you might bea rescuer in some relationships
and not others. But just toclarify this, this doesn't mean
that you're never supporting orhelping anyone or doing a nice
thing. It's when you abandonyourself, you do something that
isn't good for you. You'retaking on responsibilities that
(16:56):
don't belong to you, likeregulating someone else's
emotions, preventing someoneelse from having consequences.
You know, one of the examples inthe article is this guy who
lends his car even though itruins his job situation, because
the victim is demanding that heneeds to borrow a car. And it's
that wanting to be a goodperson, believing it's right to
(17:18):
help, believing that you're notgoing to be a good person if you
don't help. And also, I see thisfueled tremendously, and I know
you see this too by fear. Peopleare afraid, and they can't
tolerate the discomfort ofletting the victim sit in their
consequences. Yes, so we knowthis with kids, right? People
(17:39):
don't want their kid to get abad grade, they won't get into a
good college. What if the kid atschool is mean to them? What if
their kid isn't okay? It feelsintolerable. And in adult
relationships, what I see a lotis just the emotional contagion
of people who are even slightlyco dependent. They're so
activated by their partner beingupset, their partner being upset
(18:02):
means they're failing, or theirpartner being upset means they
should be doing something. Soit's all coming down to this
mistaken belief, too, that weshould always be in positive
emotion and in thesedysfunctional drama triangles,
that somebody's got to rescueand prevent everybody from
feeling badly. And that'sactually exactly what causes it
Laura Bowman (18:26):
that is such a great point. Like you just,
like, hit the nail on the head.
It's like that inability to sitwith emotion and feel feelings,
and it gets people stuck. And Iand I think there are certain
people that are just very I haveone son that like, really can't
handle when anybody's in a badmood, and he just is checking
and scanning, and I'm alwaystrying to give him skills to
(18:49):
cope with that, but it's just hecan't handle it. Yeah, and I
think there are a lot of peoplewho find it very intolerable to
be around people who are feelingstrong feelings, and they want
everybody to be okay, and theydon't care what piece of
themselves they have to abandonto make sure everybody's feeling
okay,
Colette Fehr (19:09):
right? Because of it's and this, people probably
know this to a degree, but it'sreally not altruistic. It's not
about helping. It's aboutavoiding the discomfort you feel
in yourself. It's about feelinggood, feeling needed, feeling
valuable. Many people are afraidnot to rescue or enable, because
they'll lose the relationship. Ihear constantly, people who grow
(19:33):
up from neglectful childhoods,who feel like if they don't have
a role, if they don't add value,they won't be loved. I
Laura Bowman (19:41):
resonate with that. You do, yeah, oh yeah. I
had that belief for like, Istill, you know, I think I've
even hinted at it in here whereit's, like, you know, having
radical belief of self is like,hard for me. I need evidence. I
need value. I need proof. Proofof worth very often. What do you
(20:03):
think
Colette Fehr (20:03):
that's from? Like, early childhood dynamics?
Laura Bowman (20:08):
I think I was definitely in a relationship
with my mom and my brother, andI've, I've talked about it
before in the podcast, where itwas like I was really wanted
around if I could be useful insome way, you know, like, I did
a lot of helping my mom regulateher emotions. I did a lot of,
like, being my brother'ssidekick. And like, if I could
(20:31):
provide value space was made forme, and I don't know is, and I
think I probably, like, pickedup on that very early, and then
wondered, like, if I'm not inthis job, am I still? Do? They
still kind of want me around,right? I This is what I think my
(20:51):
child mind was probably like,learning Exactly,
Colette Fehr (20:55):
yeah. And I think that's the exactly the kind of
dynamic we hear from clients,too. So then you grow up feeling
like, obviously you're sheddingthis, and have shed it to a
large degree, but you know, it'sa hard thing to let go of when
love really feels in your earlyyears like it's connected to the
(21:16):
role you provide and what you dofor others. So this, we're not
suggesting this is easy to getout of, but I do think it starts
small, you know, saying nofeeling your feelings. And we're
going to talk about that more ina minute, because I want to make
sure we also talk about thepersecutor.
Laura Bowman (21:36):
Love the persecutor. Yeah, yeah. Go for
it. Let's talk about the who isthe persecutor to the system.
Colette Fehr (21:43):
The persecutor is the bad guy. This is the person
who's blamed for what's notworking, and the person who
actually, ironically andinterestingly, in order to exit
the Drama Triangle, you have tobe willing. This is the escape
hatch place. You have to bewilling to be seen as the bad
(22:03):
guy. You have to be willing toplay that role. Doesn't mean you
are the bad guy, but the victimand maybe even the rescuer are
going to see you that waybecause the persecutor, maybe
it's the one who has donesomething wrong, let's say but
the bad guy in the DramaTriangle is really the person
who is refusing to rescue thevictim.
Laura Bowman (22:28):
Yeah, yeah. And let's just say that people like
think they can rescue themselvesout of a Drama Triangle. That's
the most. That's the, probablythe biggest thing I see in
therapy, people who think thatif they can rescue better,
they'll get themselves out of aDrama Triangle.
Colette Fehr (22:42):
You mean they rescue like the victim better,
then it'll be over.
Laura Bowman (22:46):
No, like, somehow they're going to be better,
yeah, like, rescue the victim,or like, they're going to do the
right the rescuer is going to dothe right thing. Be better. Do
it better. Communicate itbetter. And they're going to be
able to, like, save the victim,right? So neutralize the
persecutor, whatever it isthey're wanting to
Colette Fehr (23:04):
do right, like, right, prevent the adverse
consequences. So if it's achild, it's like, okay, I can do
it better. I will communicatewith the teacher. I'll be the my
kid can't do this, and this istoo much for my kid to handle. I
mean, listen, I don't thinkanyone would read about this and
say, Sign me up. I think it'slargely unconscious until we
(23:25):
make ourselves aware. But I knowas therapists, what we see so
much is people have just afoundationally distorted
perception of what they'reresponsible for with other
people they love. Yes, you know,it's not just the consequences
and rescuing someone who is anaddict and they can't pay their
(23:46):
bill, and you go pay and you'reenabling. It could look like
that, but it also can be thatyou don't speak your truth,
because it might upset yourpartner, even though all you're
doing is telling the truth abouthow you feel, and then you're
resentful and angry and youblame them or someone else. So
(24:06):
this also brings up a key point,which is that people are not one
fixed thing in this DramaTriangle. People move around
positions, and you might be arescuer with one friend, and you
might be an angry victim in yourmarriage,
Laura Bowman (24:21):
or you can shuffle around these roles in one
scenario just to get differentneeds met. Like, oh, if I, if I
fall into victims, certainlysomebody will come and rescue
me. You know, people try allstrategies like, make it work,
because, to your point, like,nobody wants to move to
persecutor and be that seen asthe bad guy, right? So like to
(24:43):
to leave a relationship, youhave to, you have to move to
persecutor and risk being seenas the bad
Colette Fehr (24:49):
guy. And that's part of why the underlying
psychological dynamics are bigreason why people stay, yeah,
big reason handle it. No, you'reseen. That way often by society,
you hurt someone, you broketheir heart. You're seen that
way by the person who doesn'twant you to leave.
Laura Bowman (25:07):
How many times have you heard in therapy
Colette where somebody says, Ijust wish they'd do something?
So I had, like, a reason, so itdidn't like I could leave. Yeah,
I wish they'd cheat. So I
Colette Fehr (25:17):
had a reason. Oh, I hear it all the time and and
we've talked about this before,I wish they'd just die and I
don't have to be the person feelit. Yeah, I hear that all the
time. And these are not callousor unemotional sociopaths. These
are people that so don't want tobe the one to hurt someone, to
rock the boat, to leave, to havepeople look at them and thank
God What an asshole. They'drather stay in something that
(25:41):
makes them miserable and hopethe person dies. So it takes
balls to be seen as thepersecutor. But the reason it's
so important is that in orderfor the Drama Triangle to
collapse, which doesn't mean therelationships are effortless,
but it does mean they'rehealthy, is when people tell the
truth about what's happening.
They may have differentperceptions of the truth, but
(26:03):
you whether anyone is willing tolisten or not, you speak your
truth. You feel your feelings.
You don't suppress them, becauseemotional suppression is a huge
part of the Drama Triangle.
People want to feel the positiveemotions, and often want to
suppress the negative emotions,but in order to feel the
(26:25):
positive, you have to also feelthe negatives emotions are
giving you messages. So let'sjust use like a common scenario
where someone doesn't like afriendship that their spouse has
with another person. They itbothers them, and, you know, one
partner dismisses it and islike, You're ridiculous. There's
nothing happening here. And theyeven get sort of ego defensive,
(26:47):
like, how could you? How dareyou suggest I'm not doing
anything wrong, you know? Sothat other partner either can,
like, see themselves, you can bean angry victim in your head.
Well, this is bullshit, and Idon't like it, and I'm mad, but
I'm not going to say anything,because it's not going to go
well. But I'm going to eithersubvert this person behind the
(27:08):
scenes, look in their phone, I'mgoing to go do it myself. I'm
going to go flirt with people,right? All kinds of passive
aggressive behaviors. All ofthat is Drama Triangle, because
then, in that case, your spouseis both the persecutor, you
know, and the rescuer, if theywon't rescue you with their
behavior. But if you're breakingout of the pattern, you're
(27:31):
saying, Look, when you do this,this is how this makes me feel.
It doesn't work for me. It's aboundary for me. I'm not saying
you're doing anything wrong orthat you're a bad person, but I
am trying to tell you how I feelabout your behavior, and if
you're not going to listen, thenhere's what I'm going to do. As
a result, the whole trianglecollapses when that feelings are
(27:51):
expressed and the truth is told,
Laura Bowman (27:56):
ding, ding, ding.
Like, yes, and this is like,your book, right? I mean, this
is, like, the reason why it's soimportant to, like, tune into
feelings, know what you feel,and then be able to express them
clearly. And sometimes, you knowyou are risking the
relationship. Yep, you know,sometimes your choices aren't
that great, but it nobody wantsto live in this triangle. You do
(28:18):
that. You live in this trianglefor long enough you're going to
be in one of our offices, yeah,because it becomes so untenable,
Colette Fehr (28:27):
yeah, and you're miserable. I mean, that's, I
think the biggest thing is thatpeople, maybe they're numbing
out through some kind of likeaddictive behavior or
distraction behavior or whateverit is, but it is not healthy,
mentally or physically, and it'sterrible for relationships not
to feel and express feelings.
It's really foundationallyimportant to the human
experience, and
Laura Bowman (28:50):
it's one of those things that, like, once you
learn this, this is like, one ofthose cornerstones of being an
adult and being a reallyfunctional adult and attracting
really good relationships. Ifyou can be like feel your
feelings and communicate themhonestly, you're going to
attract a whole higher level setof people, and
Colette Fehr (29:10):
you're going to feel so good inside, maybe at
the beginning it will feeluncomfortable, and sometimes you
won't get a good response, andyou'll get rejected and but you
you're going to start to seethat actually you can handle it,
and that gives you moreinformation about what people
will and won't do. I think themost freeing thing for me, just
(29:31):
to segue before we get intoempowerment, I think the most
freeing thing for me that I'velet go of from Drama Triangle,
is not feeling like I have tocare, take other people's
emotions, or feeling responsiblefor other people's emotions, and
this is part of why. So youknow, if somebody is upset, I
(29:51):
can care, I can be supportiveand loving, but I don't feel
like, oh no, oh no, or it's myjob to make them feel better. Or
if they feel bad. Lee, it'sbecause of me. I I'm separate.
They are the primary caretakerof their own individual system
and their own feelings. And if Ilove them, I can be there to
(30:11):
support and to reassure and tocomfort, but I'm not responsible
for it. That is free, a
Laura Bowman (30:18):
huge journey. And I'm like, I'm still on that one
I've like, I said, I'veextricated myself from doing
that with a lot of my adultrelationships, my youngest
children, like they are. Istruggle a little bit to like,
not feel the visceral sense oflike, needing or wanting to jump
(30:39):
in, but I refrain a lot more.
Like, one of the things I say tomyself, and I say to my clients
a lot, is like, give peopletheir lives back. That's a
rescuer strategy of like, do nottry to go in there and run
people's lives thinking thatsomehow you're going to do it
better. You're going to savethem from themselves. Let people
feel the gravity of their ownlife and solve their own
(31:02):
problems and create their ownsolutions
Colette Fehr (31:07):
Exactly. And just to be clear, I really, I think
it's a big shift, but I stillstruggle with this too. You
know, I feel, I feel like Ireally am an empath, and I feel
things very deeply, and it canbe hard when you're wired that
way, not to step into this role.
And I played this role to somedegree in my family system when
I was young, and I think I feltvery effective, because I could
(31:30):
understand people and understanddynamics and feel what they were
feeling and put words to it. Ithink I felt like I played this
role a lot for male friends whenI was younger, for female
friends, for my parents, for,you know, so it's not like, oh,
I need to be needed, but I justfelt a source of effectiveness.
Laura Bowman (31:52):
I love that you said that, because I want to
clarify that, like there wassome of that with me too, like,
you know, not only needing tofeel useful, like, I guess that
was part of it, or feeling likeI wasn't gonna be loved if I
wasn't useful, but that Iactually felt very potent and
very effective, and that therewas something heady in that. So
I probably like contributed tomy own role as much as anybody
(32:13):
put me there,
Colette Fehr (32:14):
right? Me too. You feel successful. You feel
powerful. It's like, Oh, I'm sogood at this, right? We have,
like, something you're good at,but what happens is, it can just
walk you into a lot of COdependent relationships,
because, you know, narcissistslove a personality like mine,
which is why I've had so manytangos. You know that the
(32:36):
empathic nature, all thosequalities, and it's just a
perfect dance. It's easy to getsucked into, but I think
awareness is the key. And thenand feeling your feelings,
speaking up and telling thetruth. And then let's talk a
little bit about how these rolesshift in the empowerment
triangles.
Laura Bowman (32:54):
Because I love this. I love the empowerment
triangle. So these are the ifyou were to flip the role from
like victim to the healthyversion. We'd already talked
about that. So the opposite ofvictim is the Creator. I mean,
that's just such a powerfulmessage to myself, that whenever
I get into the victim state ofmind, I'm always I say it a lot,
(33:16):
even with anxiety or worry orpoor me, I'm like, out of my
head and into my hands. Like,what can I build? What can I
create? What can I do? Not tolike, distract myself from my
emotions all the time, but togo, okay, here I am. I'm stuck,
right? I feel like shit rightnow. But when you move into
(33:38):
creator, like, you just it's itunlocks something. I
Colette Fehr (33:43):
agree and I think it's okay. I'm struggling, but I
have choices. I have choice.
It's remembering that you havechoices. And you know, another
thing, going back to ScottPeck's book, right? What is it
called? Like the road lesstraveled. So good, so good. I
need to reread that I haven'tread it further along the road,
less traveled. And okay, well,that one I just loved. It's like
(34:03):
every sentence is brilliant. Soif any of you haven't read it,
it's like an oldie, but goodie.
But, you know, he talks abouthow some people, and we see this
as therapists, so blamethemselves. They overtake
responsibility, and some peopletake no responsibility. So I
used to be the type that I wouldoverly blame myself. I see
(34:24):
everything as I feel like I haveso much locus of control.
Everything was my fault, right?
And also this can be innercritic, wired, but now I don't
beat myself up. I've reallychanged the way I talk to
myself, but what I do when Icatch myself feeling victim,
like a victim. First of all, Idon't punish myself for that. I
acknowledge it that, like thissituation sucks, there's a part
(34:44):
of me that really does feel likeit's not fair, right? It doesn't
feel good. And I validate my ownemotions, because that tends to
allow them to like, exist andand expire. They get expressed
and then they drift and. Then Ialso am quick to say, Okay, what
part of this, if any, can I takeaccountability for, not from a
(35:04):
place of blame and self loathingand criticism piling on, but
from a place of like, Okay, howdid I play a part in what
unfolded? And usually, there issome way. Obviously, if a tragic
thing happens, you know, you'rein like a plane crash. I mean,
I'm not, you didn't participatein that, right? But there's
almost always in some of thesesituations, something that's
(35:28):
recognizing, even in that itwould be, look, life has a
certain degree of chance, and Iwas living and a bad
circumstance happened to me,like, I got on the plane knowing
the best, doing the do most duediligence I could and like a
terrible thing happened. Butthen back to the locus of
(35:48):
control. Okay, what do I do now?
Laura Bowman (35:51):
Yeah, well, you die, right in that example, but
if you
Colette Fehr (35:55):
survive, not if you're an 11 a like our friend
in India, that like, God, didyou see that? Oh, I've, I've
watched it because I have aserious flying issue, as you
know, flying phobia. I feel likeI'm in recovery, and I've come a
long way. But every time thereare these incidents, I get
knocked back a little. I was inthe air at the same time, and
(36:16):
actually on takeoff, I had thatvery thought, and I was kind of
chiding myself for being socatastrophic and how silly it
was. And then I landed. I'mlike, oh, it just wasn't my
turn. And now I've heard peopleare wanting, everyone wants to
sit in 11 a and people are like,saying they'll pay more for that
seat.
Laura Bowman (36:36):
Did he like propel himself out of the exit? No, no.
Colette Fehr (36:40):
I read his I've read everything. Oh, my God,
let's talk later about Yeah. Soanyway, any random example, but
the idea is to get back intoOkay, I am not a victim, even if
something happened to me, that'snot fair. I'm not a victim
because I have choices now. Andthose choices are, how do I
respond? Yeah, to what'shappened?
Laura Bowman (36:58):
I think that's the greatest question. Is, like, I
have choices. What are mychoices? Right? I mean, I say
that to clients at least 10times a day. So what are your
choices? You know, right?
Because you've got to always beoriented. It's
Colette Fehr (37:11):
poker. Maybe you got a shitty hand, but it's
going to be how you play thehand. There's always a way to
play your
Laura Bowman (37:16):
hand. There's always a way to play your hand,
but now when to hold them andknow when to fold them, know
when to walk away and know whento run.
Colette Fehr (37:26):
Okay, so many times that I haven't. So let's
talk about rescuer, because thisis a big one in the empowerment
triangle. The rescuer is acoach, and this is what we
alluded to before, which is notthat we say, Oh, screw off. It's
your problem. Those are youremotions. That's your choice.
Like, I don't care about you. Imean, you can do that, but when
(37:49):
you love someone, you can be acoach, you can encourage. You
can support, hey, I care aboutyou. You can have boundaries
that are healthy for you anddon't cause you to self abandon.
Maybe a friend's going through ahard time, and it doesn't cost
you too much to say, hey, youknow, call me anytime if you
need to talk. And that's a wayyou can support and you're not
taking responsibility for thatfriend's feelings or
(38:12):
circumstances, and maybe you'reable to coach her a little
through something that you alsowent through just a healthier
way to support without fixing ortaking responsibility.
Laura Bowman (38:24):
Yeah, and coaching, surreal art form. I
mean, coaching really happenswhen you're standing outside the
system. You're really likerespecting the autonomy of the
person, and you're reallyfacilitating them, getting the
answers from themselves, yes,you know, and you we see this go
wrong, and counseling and incoaching, where people, like,
(38:47):
I'm in a coaching program rightnow, which is, like the funniest
thing, because a lot of thesewomen, I think they thought they
were there to provide answersfor people, you know, because,
like, they were gonna, like,tell people what to do. Because
this is, like, a very satisfyingrole sometimes. And coaching is
not that, you know, it's a lotof motivational interviewing,
it's a lot of rolling withresistance. It's a lot of like,
(39:10):
asking well placed questions,and like, I think, much to their
chagrin, it's like, oh, shit,this isn't what I was signing up
for. Yeah.
Colette Fehr (39:19):
And I think a lot of therapists struggle with that
too. I agree,
Laura Bowman (39:23):
but I I always use the metaphor of like in this is
like, it's the differencebetween showing somebody how to
serve a ball, like, I'm going toshow you, I'm going to, like,
practice with you, I'm going tomodel it, or whatever, versus
taking the ball from thestudent, yeah, and like, doing
it for them. Well,
Colette Fehr (39:41):
it's, there's an expression, and of course, let's
blame menopause. I can'tremember how it goes, but it's
like, Teach a man to, like, takea man fishing and you give him
one meal, but teach a man tofish and he eats for life. I
don't think that's it, but it'ssomething like
Laura Bowman (39:56):
that. I know exactly. Yeah, you're right.
You're right. Same thing. It'sthe same. Same thing, yeah,
yeah. But most people can'tsettle with themselves, of,
like, the process, of like,being with somebody to coach. So
they end up, like, ripping theball out of their hand and,
like, let me do it, or I'm gonnajust catch the damn fish for
Colette Fehr (40:14):
you. Or they want to feel needed, or their ego
gets involved and they likebeing the person. I mean,
there's a lot of that. Yeah,there's so people are fascinated
to know that, you know, we'renot in the business of giving
any advice. You know, there aretimes that it's appropriate to
provide your opinion, but to bevery clear that that might be
(40:35):
your opinion, and thatultimately, people have to
choose what they do with theirown lives, and mostly it is
trying to help people get attheir own truths. Because what
is right for me isn't going tobe right for 10 other
Laura Bowman (40:48):
people. Yeah? And I do the same thing, like when I
offer an opinion in therapy, Iwill say, Listen, you're going
to have to play this the way youfeel it I said. But what I'm
going to say right now is justme. I'm a woman with an opinion.
Yep, take it for whatever it'sworth. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (41:05):
no. Impact. I love that expression exactly, but you
got
Laura Bowman (41:09):
to separate yourself, because I'm not here
to tell people how to runthings. No, no, no. I don't want
that responsibility,
Colette Fehr (41:15):
right? And also, we know how delicate and
damaging that can be, thatthere's really is such an
intersectionality of every humanbeing, their personality, their
family, their race, theirethnicity, their age, that like
to be offering solutions. Idon't care who you are. It's
just ridiculous. It'soverstepping, and it's not
(41:36):
helpful. It's not helpful.
Ultimately, people have toconnect with their own power and
agency. And so just to finish upwith the persecutor, you know,
it's really, I don't rememberwhat the guy, it's the
Challenger, okay? Because I wasgoing to say it's the truth
teller. It's just somebody whosays, But same thing, same as
somebody who says, I'm not goingto do this crap. I'm going to
just say, what is I'm going tochallenge unhealthy dynamics,
(41:59):
and I'm gonna live my life. I'mnot gonna blame but I'm not
gonna be quiet either,
Laura Bowman (42:06):
as a powerful, powerful person in the system.
And I like, I love those people,because I think they just model
how it it can be, yep. And I tryto be more like that in my life.
Me too.
Colette Fehr (42:19):
Yeah. And I was going to say, I think what we
want to leave everyone withtoday is, yeah, this is even
motivating me, because I thinkthis is where I have tried to
move to being the challenger ina healthy way, you know, healthy
version of the Challenger,someone who says, I'm not going
to blame you. I'm not going tomake you the bad guy, but I'm
(42:40):
not going to shrink and cowerand abandon myself, either or
play these dysfunctional gameswhere we all pretend or we lie
or we rescue I'm going to standin my own truth. I'm going to
say it, and then you're going todo what you're going to do, and
I can hold that. So I think whatwe want to leave you all with,
too, is that anyone can move inthis direction. This isn't about
(43:04):
you have to have had this kindof empowerment in childhood. I
think most people didn't.
There's not that many perfectlyhealthy systems, or we wouldn't
have jobs. But it is somethingyou can develop the capacity for
today, and it really does startagain with small actions.
Examine your relationships. Payattention to how you feel around
(43:25):
certain people in your life whoare close to you, who do you not
feel like you can tell the truthabout your feelings, and then
what do you say to yourselfabout why you can't? Are you
blaming someone else that youcan't? Because that's what I
hear. Oh, I would say, but theway he or she reacts, no, that's
Drama Triangle. Or he or shecouldn't handle it right, right?
(43:45):
Or, well, that will only createthis, this and this, okay,
Unknown (43:51):
which I can't handle,
Colette Fehr (43:54):
right, and maybe, but that's what we've got if
we're gonna be in the healthychallenger role, somebody who
tells the truth and feelsfeelings. We have to develop
that emotional muscle totolerate some of the discomfort,
to do it, and then knowing we'regonna feel more powerful, we're
gonna be more clear, we're gonnafeel healthier. You're gonna
(44:15):
attract better relationshipsbecause you don't collude with
this bullshit.
Laura Bowman (44:20):
Yeah, 100% like that. That is the outcome.
Because when you get into thatchallenger role, like, and you
don't accept living in the DramaTriangle, like, you'll just kick
on healthy people out. It won'tlast. Yeah, it won't
Colette Fehr (44:33):
work exactly, exactly. So this is a beautiful
place to end on, I think. And,you know, I encourage all of you
guys to read more about this andalso to check out our website.
Like we said at the beginning ofthe episode, we really are
building community this yearthat is like the word of the
(44:54):
year. Laura and I already have agreat community with each other,
but we want to build that withyou, too. People, and we want to
have these conversations afterthe episode. You know, we want
to hear what you think. And somany of you have emailed us and
asked us questions when we seeyou or text us things, but this
chat that you can find on ourwebsite, insights from the
(45:15):
couch.org We're just calling itthe chat, you know, this is
going to be a way that we canall share our voices and our
stories and ask questions andget curious and learn and grow
together. So join us there.
Laura Bowman (45:27):
We're too old to not like, say the true thing. I
mean, I know I am like, I don'thave a need to like, patience
for it anymore, and all I wantto do is, like, talk about the
real stuff. So let's do thattogether.
Colette Fehr (45:39):
Yes, let's be anti Drama Triangle and all about
empowerment triangle in thechat. All right, thanks
everyone. We'll see you nexttime, and we hope you got some
great insights from our couch.
Bye.
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