August 20, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode, we’re discussing the real, raw, and essential skills that every woman needs to navigate midlife with grace, grit, and a whole lot of self-compassion. We’ve been through the highs, the lows, the chutes and ladders of this season, and today we’re pulling back the curtain to share the seven foundational skills we believe every woman should know to not just survive, but thrive. These are the skills we teach in our Midlife Master Class, and the ones that have held us up through the toughest times. From boundary-setting and assertive communication to frustration tolerance, inner parts work, and energy protection—this conversation is packed with insights we’ve lived, taught, and continue to practice ourselves.
Episode Highlights:
[0:02] - Why midlife is so hard—and why these 7 skills matter
[2:46] - The highlight reel isn’t the whole story (and why we cry behind the scenes)
[6:12] - Boundaries: not just with others, but with yourself
[9:03] - When your kid is in a toxic relationship (and you want to break up with them yourself)
[13:44] - Self-care as a boundary: what it really looks like
[14:00] - Assertive communication: the misunderstood superpower
[21:10] - Frustration tolerance: why it belongs in your skillset
[22:10] - What self-connected communication actually looks like
[29:43] - Understanding and befriending your inner critic
[31:10] - Why self-compassion isn’t fluffy—it’s essential
[33:08] - Protecting your energy: from giving tree to grounded goddess
[39:39] - The dance between being needed and being free
[41:31] - Redefining resilience as a learned, practiced skill
[46:02] - How changing your self-talk becomes your superpower
[47:39] - Why doing this work in a group is so powerful (and how you can join us)
If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!
Come hang out with us in The Chat, our free community for midlife women, where we keep the
conversation going at insightsfromthecouch.org/the-chat.
And don’t forget to
download our free guide 7 Skills to Master Midlife so you can stop living small, start taking action, and
live the life you really want at insightsfromthecouch.org/midlife-roadmap.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura Bowman (00:02):
Marc, Hi guys, today we are talking about a big
thing. We're talking about theseven skills you need to master
midlife. These are the skillsthat we think are the things
that are going to make midlifemanageable, help you get your
goals. These are the things thatwe really work with in our
(00:24):
midlife master class, and wewant to just dig really deep in
that to them today, right? Yeah,this is kind of the foundation
that you need at this stage oflife to live your best life. And
Laura and I were chatting beforewe got on just about how, you
know, we redid our website, andwe love it, and we had so much
(00:46):
fun doing it. And the picturesshow us so happy and laughing.
And it's not that we're notlike, happy, but it's the
highlight reel, right? It looksso sunny and like life is so
great. And I know I'm like, welook so damn good. We're cute,
right? And first of all, we'renot always that cute. And second
of all, life is really hard forall of us, I think, in so many
(01:08):
different ways. We've all gotour different challenges that
we're dealing with, but there'sa universality to it, which I
always find so comforting. Somany of us are going through so
many of the same things. We'retaking care of aging parents.
We're experiencing loss. We'reparenting children. Our children
have issues of some kind thatbreak our heart. We're worried
(01:32):
for them. We're busy. We'remanaging careers. We're
navigating relationships. Imean, I hear from so many people
because of how active I am onsocial media, and how much I
open up about my own maritalstruggles, my own divorce. You
know, then people know I'm acouples therapist. So many
people message me privately andsay, oh my god, I'm going
(01:53):
through exactly this right now.
You know, there's just so muchat midlife. Then we haven't even
mentioned, of course,perimenopause and menopause and
those enormous changes. So Ithink it's it's tough for all of
us, but these are the skillsthat Laura and I have curated
that we teach in the midlifemaster class. And we actually
have a freebie on our websitetoo, insights from the couch.org
(02:16):
where you can download thisexact like the document to go
back over all of this, but wewant to dive deep and give you
some value today that you canuse right away on how these
skills can help you. It's notgoing to make the challenges go
away, but it can make them alittle easier, yeah. And just
like to the to your point. Imean, there are so many times
(02:38):
that you and I sit together andjust cry,
just to be real. I mean, justcry and and I mean, life is so
much a game of like chutes andladders in Candy Land, and
sometimes you just cannotbelieve where you are in
(02:59):
moments. And you and Idefinitely are always grappling
with those things. Our lives arenot perfect, and I just one of
the things that has helped me somuch is doing therapy people.
People often say to me, and Idon't know if they say this to
you, how do you do this all day?
How do you sit here and listento people all day? Is this
exhausting for you? And I'mthinking, No, it's not
(03:20):
exhausting, and it's a reminder.
And I wish everybody could comein with me and just sit and
witness the human experience andwhat people go through, because
it's so normalizing, and yourealize, oh, everybody is
struggling with some version ofthe same, some of this? Yes,
(03:41):
yes, so, and I think what we'resaying with this episode today
is that some of the skills we'velearned as being therapists are
the things it's like thescaffolding that's made us able
to cope
Colette Fehr (03:55):
with hard, yep, beautifully said. It's so true.
I'm thinking about it. You know,one of the biggest benefits,
other than the fact that being atherapist is such a rewarding
job, it can be such achallenging job, and I'm not
going to pretend it's allsunshine and roses, but it is
rewarding to know you're doingsomething where you're really
impacting people and helpingthem, and it can be so
(04:16):
gratifying in that sense, like Ifeel like we couldn't have a
more meaningful, purposeful job.
So I love that. But the otherthing is that by becoming a
therapist, the training we gothrough in graduate school and
just sitting with people, notonly the normalization, but the
skills you need as a therapist,some of what we're going to talk
about today to be able tocommunicate assertively, to be
(04:38):
able to hold boundaries. It wasbecoming a therapist that helped
me develop a lot of theseskills. And if not for that, I'm
not sure I would have them all.
So as you guys listen to theseseven, some of these you may
already have pretty locked down.
Maybe all of them are still astruggle, but just be listening
for. Where you are and what youcould improve on, because we're
(05:01):
all a work in progress, and eventhough I've gotten so much
better at boundaries and I'm arecovering people pleaser, which
some people literally don'tbelieve that I could be a people
pleaser, because I have such astrong part that gives zero
fucks and is like, I'm doingwhat I want, but it depends on
the context, and in places whereI feel vulnerable, or I could
(05:23):
lose a relationship, or I'mafraid to offend or disappoint,
I used to have a very hard timeholding boundaries. I'm pretty
good at it now, but it's still astruggle. It's always a
struggle. It's always astruggle, right? And we're still
up against good girlconditioning that I call good
girl, itis. I don't care howpowerful you are at work, no one
wants to be the bitch, right?
(05:49):
And that's the problem. Often aswomen, we're seen as a total
bitch, if we're just a normal,assertive human being who isn't
constantly, like, rolling overon our bellies for the world,
right? So let's get into it.
Yeah, let's get into it. Okay,all right, so I don't know, we
don't have to go in ordernecessarily. Let's talk about
boundaries first, since we're onit.
Laura Bowman (06:12):
Okay? I mean, we talk so much about boundaries.
But as I was thinking about thistoday, I was thinking about our
Drama Triangle episode, and Iwas thinking that the part of
boundaries that we don't talkenough about is a part where we
understand what's on our side ofthe fence or our side of the I
just I envision, I envision myrelationships with other people,
(06:36):
like a tennis court, okay,right? And what's on my side of
the net is really mine, andwhat's on their side of the net
is really theirs. And I see somany people when they come into
therapy like completely tangledin the net, because they're
like, over the net into theirinto other people's space. And
so so much when we talk aboutboundaries, we're always like,
(06:58):
what do we need? Where do weneed to set boundaries? But part
of boundaries that we don't talkenough about is recognizing the
autonomy of other people andknowing where to step back from
other people and let people maketheir own choices do. I talked
about this a lot in the DramaTriangle, but it's it's a place
where where people just getreally messed up, yeah. And it
(07:22):
was, what was the thing you saidin our Drama Triangle episode? I
wrote it down because it was oneof our reels, and I was like, I
love this. I love this.
Colette Fehr (07:29):
I have no idea. I can't remember what I said five
minutes.
Laura Bowman (07:32):
Oh, my God, people have a foundationally distorted
perception of what they'reresponsible for with the people
that they care
Colette Fehr (07:39):
about. Oh, it gave me chills. My own words, yeah,
the mic it's so true, right? Micdrop. And you know, I love your
metaphor. First of all, I justgave a talk to a tennis team
about the mental game of tennis.
So tennis has been on my mind.
Oh, good. And also, I think it'ssuch a great visual metaphor,
because, you know, you'rewhether you play tennis or not,
(08:01):
I pictured somebody like in thenet, and then I also pictured
somebody, from a boundaryperspective, serving the ball
and then running to the otherside to try to hit the ball
back, and like, elbowing theperson out of the way so they
can return the shot, thenrunning back over. This is
metaphorically what a lot ofpeople are trying to do in life.
They're trying to manageeveryone. So we're talking about
(08:24):
not only having boundaries withother people, but self imposed
boundaries, recognizing when youfeel an urge to get involved
that maybe you don't have to.
Like I went to I won't even saywhich child, so that way. I keep
it a little bit anonymous, but Iwas with one of my children
yesterday and hearing about herplans and what's going on in her
(08:47):
relationship. She is an adult,and when I heard the details of
the current relationship, and Ijust wanted to pull every hair
out of my head and scream,
Laura Bowman (09:01):
he wanted to climb over the net run
Colette Fehr (09:03):
like this dude sounds like Bad News Bears like
I just, oh my god, from theapartment the animal he has the
she's never gonna listen to thisepisode. So thank God. My kids
are like, I have no interest inyour podcast, mom. Yeah, they're
like, that podcast for oldpeople, but I just this guy also
(09:25):
has, like, already has a trackrecord of not being super
honest, like, it's just awful.
And then she said to me, youknow, I know it's kind of toxic,
but, like, I just can't get outof it. And I mean, Ah, right? So
I was like, yes, you can you.
She goes, see, I don't reallyknow how to do it. I said, you
(09:45):
say, this isn't working for me.
Goodbye, right? So, and she'slike, well, that's real easy for
you to say, mom. But my point inthis is that every fiber of my
soul, we're walking around homegoods, and I'm hearing this. And
you know how expressive My faceis, and I know how expressive My
face is, so I'm trying to keepmy face neutral and impassive,
but I wanted to take her andjust say, No, you have to leave
(10:09):
this relationship. Now. Thisisn't good for you. It's only
gonna get worse. You're gonnaget hurt. I don't even know if
this guy is like, safe to bearound. What the fuck are you
doing? And we're ending thisnow, like, I literally want to
call the guy and break up withhim for her. So anyway, my point
as I go on and on here is that,you know, it may seem super
(10:30):
obvious that that's where Ishouldn't be involved, but I'm a
relationship therapist. My kidis suffering. I've had phone
calls from her sobbing over thisguy. He doesn't sound like a
great guy. And you know, I hadto have that moment where I
said, okay, all I can do isoffer like a tidbit or two if
I'm invited to to be here and tobe supportive, to give some
(10:54):
feedback. And she, at one point,she was like, Mom, I really
don't want to hear it like I'mnot. I really don't want to hear
it like I already know. I don'twant to hear it from you. And
I'm like, Okay, it's right. Oh,how many times have I been in a
toxic really? I've been in atoxic relationship, like at
twice her age, so I need to lether figure it out, even if she
gets hurt more, instead ofrunning onto the other side of
(11:18):
the tennis court,
Laura Bowman (11:20):
stealing the racket? Yes, yes, yeah. You
gotta let people have their owngrowth experiences and and to
that end, I think, and maybewe'll talk about it more in
other areas today, but it'sabout some people just don't
know what to do on their side ofthe court,
Colette Fehr (11:38):
right? You know?
They just because they're sobusy with the other side of the
corner, they're so busy
Laura Bowman (11:41):
and they just don't know what to do, and they
don't know how to redirect theirenergy back to themselves. But
so when I think of boundaries,yes, we do have to learn that no
is a complete sentence. We don'thave to over explain the amount
of people that love to overexplain to me. I mean, my God,
like you get good at sayingreally simple things, like, I
have a conflict. This isn'tgoing to work for me. Can we
(12:03):
come up with something else Idon't want to, I'm exhausted,
whatever that's available.
Colette Fehr (12:09):
Yeah, right, and I agree. I think there are some
context where an explanation iswarranted or helpful, but over
explaining, no, and we tend tothink we need to, and you're
right, just saying, you know,unfortunately, that won't work
for me. Can we do X, Y, Z, likeyou don't have to. You don't
really owe people anything?
Laura Bowman (12:31):
Yeah, and we've done a lot of episodes on
boundaries, right?
Colette Fehr (12:35):
But it just as a reminder having boundaries with
yourself too, not just with overextending with other people, but
I think part of boundaries alsois self care. Like, directed at
self care, you know, I'm notgoing to have I would eat like,
Krispy, Kreme donuts all day,every day, even on GLP one
(12:56):
shots. I would silly, yes, yes.
Like,
Laura Bowman (12:59):
that's so you have a boundary that says, like, I'm
not going to eat. Like, yeah, itcould
Colette Fehr (13:03):
probably better.
But like, I just, I don't I likejunky food that's like, what I
like. It's been that way sinceI'm a kid. You know, I'm going
to be 52 years old, and I'dstill rather eat that than
salads. But yes, a boundary, aself imposed boundary. And you
know for other people that onemost women eat far healthier
than I do, I think so maybethat's just an example that
(13:26):
pertains to me, but you know,making sure you're taking care
of yourself is holding aboundary, that you're drinking
enough water, that you'regetting enough sleep. Like those
are part of self care, takingcare of inner parts of self that
we have to implement on aregular basis,
Laura Bowman (13:44):
knowing how much exercise you need, how much
sleep you need, how much alcoholyou can tolerate, all those
things are self imposedboundaries, right? Not from a
punishing standpoint, but from aself loving, an awareness of
this is me. This is how I workbest,
Colette Fehr (13:59):
exactly. And I think from here, as we're
talking about these seven skillsto master midlife that we teach
in the midlife master class,let's go into assertive
communication for a minute,since we're on boundaries,
because that's another one ofthe skills, if you haven't
learned how to communicateassertively. And this is like my
whole career, my whole bookthat's coming out. It's so
(14:21):
misunderstood, I think it's veryimportant to be diplomatic. And
as women, my hope for everywoman is at this season of life,
we come into our own, we findour voice, and we can be direct
and clear, but still diplomatic,still kind. We don't have to be
(14:42):
nice and caving, but it'sexactly what you're saying.
Laura, you know, I can't dothat. I'm not comfortable with
that. No, here's when I'mavailable. Here's when I'm not
available. What I will tell youas somebody who or and not to
mention bringing up what bothersyou. You in your relationship
and being able to communicateclearly what you need, but I
(15:05):
will tell you as someone whoreally struggled to be
assertive, I was passiveaggressive. I would just say yes
to things that I didn't want todo because I felt like I should,
because I felt like I would bejudged, or I would be seen to
this or that, and then I feelresentful and frustrated and all
of that stuff. Once you startexercising this muscle and
(15:27):
seeing how well most peoplerespond to kind clear, direct
communication, it becomes soeasy.
Laura Bowman (15:39):
Yeah, and I, and I also think this is, this is an
area that's been hard for me.
I've developed asymmetrically onthis. I think most people do
develop asymmetrically, andmeaning that there's areas where
you can get really good. I'mreally good at this in certain
areas with close others, andwho's good at this with my inner
circle, my inner circle, like,it's very real here in our
(16:03):
house, right? Nothing, nothingis left unsaid, right? So it's,
you know, it's very easy for meto say, like that hurt my
feelings, that wasn't helpful.
That's not okay with me. Youknow, I can say the real thing
with close others. I've alsogotten pretty good at it with
(16:24):
work, because it had to, yep, metoo. I think where I struggle
the most with it is where Iknow, where I just I go. I don't
know if it's worth it. You know,if it's there's somebody that I
think I could say that that hurtmy feelings, or I could say that
that bothered me, but I don'tknow if it's worth it. Like, I
(16:46):
don't know if I really want todeal with that, and sometimes
I'll inhibit still on momentslike that and with strangers, I
do not like conflict withstrangers. Me neither. Like if
somebody gets aggressive with mein the car. I just like pretend
I don't see them. If somebody'slike, I do not fight back. I am
like, I'm like, a how quicklycan we get through this without
(17:07):
having to have conflict? But,but I'm much better in
situations where I have to sendfood back or ask for what
exactly that what I need. Idon't sit there and eat a meal I
didn't order.
Colette Fehr (17:19):
Oh, my God. I find that insane. And also what I
think is missing is you can doit nicely. I will always send
food back or explain what isn'tright in food, but I'm always
nice about it, you know? And Ithink that's the part to me,
that's the part that's missingfor a lot of people, because
(17:40):
some people will only assertthemselves when they're relying
on a burst of emotion or angerto propel them, and so then it
can sometimes come out sideways.
Now hopefully, part of our skillhere is the emotional regulation
of being able to sometimes youare angry and you still have to
regulate yourself enough. Butthe beauty of assertiveness is
it saying the thing withoutrelying on anger to make you
(18:04):
like to make it easy, becausewhen you're angry, you don't
care, you're just say the thing,right? You fire it off. But
usually it doesn't come outbest. And I think what you're
saying about sometimes it's notworth it. I actually think
that's part of the process thatwe should be having for
everything. I don't think wehave to say everything. Yeah,
(18:25):
sometimes it isn't worth it. ButI think the problem is so many
women that we see in our officeas therapists, friends we have,
and I know how we both used tobe more is that we're not saying
things that need to be said,like you're okay. Maybe we're
saying in our households,nothing goes unsaid. But let's
(18:48):
say it's a particularlystressful time in our husband's
job, or we've been fighting alot lately, and there's
something that needs to be said,but it feels like, oh my god,
this is going to lead to anotherfreaking fight. I'm exhausted.
I'm not even sure I'm going tobe heard. Why bother? Those are
the things that we're saying.
(19:09):
You know what? That's where youprobably need to push yourself
to say it anyway. It doesn'thave to be that second, but it
needs to be said, becauseotherwise, when it comes to
close relationships or work, ifwe start to swallow things that
matter, and we rationalize themaway. We end up so filled with
resentment, and this is thefoundation of my book, the cost
(19:31):
of quiet, why these things haveto be said? Because in the long
run, it isn't worth the cost ofkeeping it in but you have a
friend that you don't know thatwell. You know, you don't see
her that often. She saidsomething that hurt your
feelings. Maybe the relationshipisn't close enough. It's not
worth it to be like, hey, yeah,when we went to lunch on
(19:53):
Thursday, what you said reallyhurt my feeling. You know, maybe
it is if you're gonna like, ifshe's important to you and
you're gonna resent. And it'sgoing to affect the friendship.
Maybe it is, but if you don'tcare that much, you let it go,
Laura Bowman (20:05):
right, right, right. So discernment is a huge
piece of it, but I definitelyagree with close people like
your partner. I think when youlet those things fester, it
people end up pulling away fromeach other and just living in
their like Silent littleencampments. And you never get
your needs met anyway. Sofiguring out how to say the real
(20:26):
thing in a warm and appropriateway that's assertive, yes, like
is a chef's kiss skill thateverybody needs at
Colette Fehr (20:35):
this Yes. And let me add one more thing before we
move on, because I know we havea lot more to get to that part
of this is learning to toleratethe frustration that comes with
knowing sometimes you willdisappoint someone. There are
people who won't have a goodreaction, you know, and that's
okay. The more you do that, themore you realize, oh, it's
(20:56):
really, actually not that bad.
There's no way to feel for it,to feel more comfortable
Laura Bowman (21:01):
than to you know, when you say that, I feel like
that skill needs to be in hereis like the frustration
tolerance, the negativitytolerance. Let's make that on
here. That needs to be
Colette Fehr (21:10):
one, and because we do teach that in the midlife
master, yeah, yeah, it'stolerating
Laura Bowman (21:15):
disappointing people tolerated, tolerating
being disappointed. Frustrationtolerance, yeah, frustration
tolerance is a skill, man, sothat's just pinging for me that
we've got to go right to selfconnected communication. Because
to me, this is the skill of mylifetime. This has been one of
the biggest breakthroughs I'vemade. And I think me too huge
(21:39):
shift when people make this thisshift, and I I've learned it
mainly from internal familysystems. And if you don't know
what internal family systems,it's Dick Schwartz's work out of
Harvard. And he talks about howwithin all of us, we have an
internal family, just like awhole group of people living
inside of us that are differentparts, the the critic, the
(22:03):
small, younger children,perfectionists, the angry part.
There are all sorts of
Colette Fehr (22:10):
scared little kids, scared
Laura Bowman (22:12):
little kids, all of it is inside. And so many
people walk around the worldjust hijacked into a part all
the time. They live throughtheir angry part. They live
through their critic, they livethrough their perfectionist, and
they're not what we call selfLED. And being led by the self
is a totally different vibe.
It's where you're calm, you'reconfident, you're connected,
(22:33):
you're compassionate, you'recreative. It's this you're
curious, or source you'recurious. Yeah, it's, it's a
totally different energy source.
And when you have a part that'sleading you around, as opposed
to having the self lead thoseparts, oh, man, it's totally
different. And it's been a hugeshift I've made. I have a hell
(22:56):
of an angry part. I mean, my myangry part, I seem so chill,
right? Yeah, chill. People tendto have very intense, angry
parts. So true. I have to havelike somebody to defend the
castle, right,
Colette Fehr (23:09):
right? So, right.
It's a protective part of veryprotective Yeah. And in ifs
therapy, they call these partsfirefighters or managers, where
a manager is a part that comesout and tries to, just like a
manager at a company, right,like, make sure everything goes
a certain way. A firefighter isa part that comes out, from a
scientific standpoint, when yournervous system is at max
(23:31):
capacity, and that part justcomes out right and to make
whatever's happening stop so thenervous system can cool down.
And the problem with beinghijacked by a firefighter part
of self is that that part hasone goal and one goal only, and
that's to put out the fire so itdoesn't care who's hurt and what
the consequences are in theprocess. And I'm with you that
(23:54):
this has been a life changingthing for me. It's the
foundation of what I do incouples therapy, because fight
or flight is when we get intothese parts. And emotional
regulation is so much of a partof relationship struggle. And I
learned to do parts work,because Dick Schwartz is
wonderful, and I love ifs, buthe didn't come up with this
(24:16):
either. You know, there's otherversions of it around, yeah,
well, and ego state therapy,yeah, and going all the way back
to object relations, but anyway,not to get too psycho babbling
that when I became an EMDRtherapist, which is the eye
movement trauma therapy, for youguys who aren't familiar with
it, we do a ton of ego state andparts work because it helps you
(24:41):
to have a relationship like weall have these parts of self,
and they're going to pop out indifferent moments. But I think a
big foundation of our work astherapists and our work in the
midlife masterclass is helpingall of us get in touch with our
own internal family, our. Owninternal team, to know all of
these parts, to accept them andto listen to them. But like you
(25:05):
said, Laura, to put the wisest,most grounded adult self driving
the bus leading the system. Icall that the sage self, and
that is the you, you know, Ialways picture my sage self as,
like I for some reason, I havebrown hair. I'm wearing no
makeup. I mean, I am a brunette,but, like, I hate how I look
(25:27):
with brown hair. But anyway, inthis image, I have brown hair,
no makeup, wearing these rattypants that have like a hole in
them, these old yoga pants Ilost and miss and I'm barefoot.
That is the image that comes tome for my sage self, and why
this is such a skill. Andanother one of the skills we
talk about is having a goodrelationship with your inner
(25:48):
critic. Is because anytime Ifeel lost or I feel overwhelmed
or I'm getting rattled, I cancheck in with I can close my
eyes, I put my hand on my heart,and I can check in with that
sage self, that girl with thebrown hair that looks terrible,
but she's so like calm andhappy. It's like your intuition.
(26:11):
You know it's your wisest self,but having the relationship
established as an ongoingpractice, and a skill is what
enables you to have access tothat part in a difficult moment.
Yeah,
Laura Bowman (26:28):
I mean, this is like half of what I do when I
walk. You know that mymeditative walks, I am talking
to parts, and I let them comeup. They come up anyway. I mean,
they, when I get into my body,my parts kind of soften and
rise, and so knowing them, whenthey come up, I'm ahead of them.
(26:49):
I can feel in my body when thatanger piece is getting going,
it's it's got a very cyclicalenergy in my system, and I can
get ahead of it and go, I'mhere, like, I'm going to handle
this. I don't fly off the handleany in the same way I used to
when I was younger, when I wasso unconscious. Me too. Now
(27:11):
it's, I go to that part. Ilisten to that part. I'm like,
Okay, what do you I got this?
I'm going to handle it. My wiseadults, going to handle it
right, and just that, thatslowing down, that being mindful
of those parts, it's a gamechanger in how you function.
Colette Fehr (27:30):
I agree, and it's really, it's not an intellectual
I mean, it's hard to again. Thisis something we do
experientially in our group, andwe do experientially as
therapists all the time. It's aprocess. It's really not enough
to know, oh, this is, this is, Ihave that part of me
intellectually felt sense,right? You have to actually
(27:51):
connect to it. So what I wouldsay, if you're listening to this
episode and you're not doing ourclass, we're seeing a therapist
who does this kind of work, isjust start by closing your eyes
for 30 seconds and notice whatparts pop up. Notice what voice
you hear. I'm very visual. I seeeverything like a movie,
something I can't visualize atall. So don't force anything.
(28:13):
But images may come to you, andif not, you'll hear a voice like
one of our other skills, like Imentioned, is the inner critic.
You will often hear an innercritic part. Mine is named Jane,
and that's my middle name. It'salso my mom's name, but it has
nothing to do with that. Andmom, I know you're probably
listening, so please don't takeit that way. It's just more
(28:35):
Alter Ego, and she's in a suit,and she's very polished, but
she's very exacting, and she'svery quick to be like, Oh God,
Colette, really like, we'restill doing this. This isn't
good enough. Like, how could youmake that same mistake? Now she
has her value. She's trying toprotect me and help me, but that
I have a whole relationship withthat part of me where I try to
(28:57):
thank her for her feedback. Butagain, come back to my yoga
pants girl and let her drive thebus. So it is so important
because the brain runs negativeand it's a survival imperative.
We all have an inner critic, andsome of ours are harsher than
others. If you grew up in anenvironment where parents were
very critical, your schoolenvironment was critical. It may
(29:21):
be even stronger. Just start tonotice that voice. Close your
eyes for a minute and see if youcan get curious. Part of what we
do is to speak to these partsdirectly, like you're talking
about Laura, asking them, hey,what do you want me to know?
What are
Laura Bowman (29:37):
you afraid of?
Yes, what are you afraid?
They're usually very afraid ofthings. Yeah, they don't step
in, and they're
Colette Fehr (29:43):
very afraid that the worst will happen if they
don't do what they're doing. Sosometimes, when we can hear
those messages and from thatsage self say, hey, that makes
sense. And like, I've got youI'm here, that adult self is
here now, and I can handle it.
It's very. Very grounding. It'svery calming, and this really
helps us know ourselves, thensometimes how we're polarized,
(30:06):
where one part of us wants onething and one part of us wants
another. So if we can developrelationships, we can get
answers from the self.
Laura Bowman (30:18):
Yes, it's so it's it's such a game changer. And
obviously you can imagine howit's a game changer in
relationships, because you'renot pulled as quickly into the
fight or flight, or if you are,you have a way of slowing it
down. I obviously, you know myinner critic, bons, she's an
interject of like my mother andmy grandmothers, and she is a
(30:39):
pill. She can be harsh. Shecomes like, that's what you're
wearing. Like, Oh, really. Likeyou're doing that. Like, what?
Why are you doing that?
Colette Fehr (30:48):
Yeah, we've talked about the fact that, like, we
both grew up in kind of, like,elitist environment, so we both
have, like, our inner criticshave a little hottie side.
They're
Laura Bowman (30:58):
hottie and, yeah, breathing, and you have to Yeah,
Colette Fehr (31:01):
and that is not who I am at all. But no, we
internalize our environment. Sothere's a part of self that can
come out like that,
Laura Bowman (31:10):
and this is the seat, as you can imagine, of
self compassion, yes, like whenpeople are like, I have no self
compassion. I can't be I can'tforgive myself. I can't be be
compassionate towards self. Whenyou have relationships with the
inner, the inner system, self,compassion becomes obvious. All
right, let's go to the next one,because we're we're running
Colette Fehr (31:31):
long, okay, I want to talk about two more that I
think we need to talk about,since we're adapting this as we
go protecting energy andresilience, let's touch on those
two.
Laura Bowman (31:43):
Yeah, I mean protecting energy, I find that
it's just understanding I'm oneof these people that my energy
goes out the door. I've beenparenting for 24 years almost. I
am a therapist, so I hold spacefor people. Professionally, I my
energy perks up when there'ssomebody to listen to or take
care of. And then when I am withmyself, I can sometimes deflate
(32:07):
like a balloon and be like, Oh,finally, I'm like, by myself and
so and then I perk up again whenthere's somebody to attend to.
And I see that a lot, thatpeople don't even know how to be
with themselves or how to evensit with their own energy. And
for a long time, I said to you,how many years did I say to you?
I feel like I'm stuck in, like,literally, the foreground of my
(32:28):
life. I go to the store, I doanother load of laundry, I pick
up another kid from school, likeit's rinse and repeat. I felt
like I was living in a circleand that nothing ever really
came back to me that I wasn'tever really building anything,
and it really running saved mein this in this regard, because
it was the one ritual I hadwhere I did come home to myself,
(32:51):
yeah, and it's only been in thelast five to seven years, I
think, where I've Reallymindfully taken a good deal more
for myself, Yes, and built myown, my own side of my court.
Yes, my own identity.
Colette Fehr (33:08):
Exactly, exactly.
Building the tennis court thatyou want and dream of mine would
be all pink. Yeah, I'm justpicturing. That's what came to
me, like a pink tennis court.
I'm such a feels very clueless.
That's okay. I'm down with that.
But you know, I as you'retalking and we're so different
(33:30):
in terms of our energy sources,so we're sort of like a yin and
yang energetically, and when Icome alive around people, but
when it's like light and socialand intellectually stimulating.
And, you know, my favorite thingto do would be to spend 24 hours
in a cafe and like a Europeansidewalk, just engaging with
(33:53):
people having conversations. Theold version of this would be
with cigarettes and copiousamounts of wine. I'll still take
Unknown (34:00):
it pop in for an hour.
Yes, yeah, be there for 24
Colette Fehr (34:04):
Yes. Like, I would be so alive and engaged and
excited, because people bring meenergy. But I also think whether
it's needing time alone, needingtime with people, the idea of
protecting your energy is thatit really is a way that we're
parenting ourselves. All theseskills are about parenting
yourself, that inner child isstill in there, and we have to
(34:26):
be a good steward of our wholesystem. We have to be good
leaders. We have to take care ofourselves, and we have to make
sure there's time and space forwhatever energizes us. So to me,
also, it's a matter ofprotecting my energy and my life
is a matter of making sure,because I'm in a very busy work
(34:47):
season, that it isn't all work,work, work, work, work, like I
have a strong ID part, you knowthat I call fuck it girl, and
she's the one who wants to godance and drink and smoke.
Cigarettes and talk and havefun, and she doesn't care about
work or anything serious, andthat's also a super fun part of
(35:07):
me. So I need to make sure thatthat part gets some space and
still gets to breathe and live,because otherwise my energy will
get depleted if I'm allresponsibility, all serious
Colette, all psychology, allwork, then I start to get out of
balance. And that can happen soeasily,
Laura Bowman (35:29):
yeah, and my version of this is very Martha
Stewart, like, I need to be likearound my house. I need to be
creative. I need to be able tosort of wander. I love to be
with myself, yeah. I just feelas though, as women and maybe as
I'm sort of more of a caregivertype, that I my energy sort of
(35:50):
perks to attention when I'mneeded, and I can get a lot
more. I don't know that on wewhen I'm not needed, yeah, so I
think learning how to masteryour energy and reclaim your
energy and say, like, This ismine. I'm actually putting time
into building my own energysource. Like, I see women that
(36:11):
can come alive for theirchildren in ways that is, like,
so incredible. Like, they'rethey've got like, a five point
plan for the college essayprocess. And you know, they're
booking trips all over thecountry for themselves, but they
cannot find a shred of energyfor themselves, right?
Colette Fehr (36:30):
And if that is even remotely resonating with
you, you don't have to changeyour whole paradigm. But like
think about claiming back 20%like we've said before, 20% of
your energy for you. You know,in our first episode, when we
talked about meaning andpurpose, which is, I still love
that episode. If you haven'tlistened to it, check it out.
(36:51):
Literally, episode number one,we talk a lot about that, about
how much time and energy shouldgo toward you. And you know,
there's different theories, butsome should be going just to
you, if you're giving it allaway to other people, right?
That is going to that is goingto blow up in your face
eventually, if it hasn'talready, we're not designed as
(37:14):
human beings to run our lifelike I always say to people,
you're not a human vendingmachine. You're not just there
waiting for people to push yourbuttons and eat all your snacks.
I love that. I mean,
Laura Bowman (37:25):
these are the same people who are caught in the
net, right? You know, right?
They're caught in the net.
They're over the other side ofthe court. And if you don't
learn that, to, like, reallyinvest in your side of the
court. Yep, you people will takefrom you, and you'll be the
point person for all the ages,you'll be the fucking giving
tree, and you will and and youprobably have unrealistic
(37:46):
expectations of what otherpeople are supposed to be doing
for you, so you're resentful,yeah, and it's just a mess.
Colette Fehr (37:53):
It's a mess. You know, it's so interesting to
just random, quick side note.
And then let's touch onresilience. I don't really
derive anything from beingneeded. Like, I don't that's not
like a thing for me. It's sointeresting. And I do feel like
I'm needed. Maybe I just feelneeded, so I don't think about
it, but in a way, when I thinkabout no one needing me, I feel
(38:14):
a surge of like, joy, like, Idon't think that that is maybe
it's just I'm not. I know I'm inthe helping profession, and I'm
care deeply about people, but Idon't get anything out of that
role or wanting to be needed.
Like, to me, I feel great when Isee my kids don't need me.
(38:38):
They're thriving without me likeI like the autonomous and I
don't I'm not saying you feel itin a healthy way. I'm just
musing about a difference, thatI feel the most free when, like
you, I love being with myself,but when no one is expecting
anything of me or wantinganything for me, and I can just
(39:00):
like, be in the world like alittle free bird?
Laura Bowman (39:04):
Yeah, I feel like I'm more ambivalent about it. I
love that book, The UnbearableLightness of Being.
Colette Fehr (39:09):
That's my Milan Kundra. I've read it four times.
It's one of my all time favoritebooks.
Laura Bowman (39:15):
But I love, I like, I think there's always
this struggle between wantingweight in my life. This is for
me, like wanting weight, meaningthat I'm tied, like an anchor to
sort certain priorities, andthen, like, fighting for
lightness, like I kind of wantto be, but I don't want to be
too light, like and maybe that'sthe difference here. But I just,
(39:36):
I need some I need that tensionto be just right for me. I agree
Colette Fehr (39:40):
with that, and I think that's a separate thing,
even though, right? I mean,that's the point of the book.
It's a philosophy, philosophybook, but with lots of story in
it, yeah, that like, right? It'sif nothing means anything, you
blow away, right? So there doeshave to be enough grounding,
like, sometimes. I think, Oh, myGod, if I were like a
(40:01):
billionaire, and I could justtravel and chat with people and
try food and go to museums andread books, but no, I actually
wouldn't want that. I mean, I'mnot gonna, like, turn it away,
but I would need. I need, and Ithink most of us need, it's back
to purpose and meaning.
Everything can't be fun, or itjust becomes meaningless. It
(40:24):
becomes pointless. And then weget into on we so I think we
need the like gravitas, and wedo need people. Maybe I don't
want to be needed, but I want tobe tethered. I want to have
meaning.
Laura Bowman (40:37):
I would suggest a really distinct difference, but
it's important. I want to betethered. I don't want to be
clung to.
Colette Fehr (40:43):
No, okay, amen to that. Oh, I just got goosebumps
every time it's like, so true,your body just responds exactly.
You don't want to be you want tobe tethered, but we don't want
to be like tangled or suffocatedor smothered. Yeah, right. So
(41:05):
all of these skills we'retalking about, and as we round
out and again, you guys candownload this. It's a free
resource on our website,insights from the couch.org.
Seven skills to master midlife,and we give you some little
tidbits to get you thinking andpracticing, it's totally free.
So check that out. But the lastone, resilience, I do really see
(41:27):
this as a skill more than it isan innate capacity,
Laura Bowman (41:31):
yeah, and I think it just is what we're talking
about. You know, the idea oflike that life would be so easy,
and how great that would be.
I've, I've had really easy partsof my life, and they didn't they
didn't feel great.
Colette Fehr (41:46):
No, I actually the time in my life that it was the
easiest. I was miserable. I wasreally miserable, the time in
life that I had the most money,the most resources, the least
pushing on me, the fewest cares.
Now, part of that is like Iwasn't happy in my relationship.
Maybe I would have experiencedit differently if I was, but
regardless, I felt like I hadparts of myself that weren't
(42:08):
developed, things I wanted to dobut I didn't know what the hell
they were. There was nothingpushing me to have to do
anything. So I couldn't reallyget started. And I did have this
sense of on we and then also aworse sense of like I should be
happy. Why aren't I happy? Ihave everything. I was fucking
miserable. I'm way now that mylife is messy and filled with
(42:31):
struggle,
Laura Bowman (42:34):
I have to agree.
You know, I have to agree,because my life in the last
couple of years has not beenlike the easiest for multiple
reasons that I'm happy to getinto it another time, because I
don't want to be turn this intomy therapy, but I will say that
this has been such a powerfulseason of growth for me, and
even though it hasn't been easy,it's been satisfying. Yes, okay,
(42:55):
that's it. Yeah, so and theother parts were easy, but they
Colette Fehr (43:03):
weren't satisfying,
Laura Bowman (43:04):
exactly. So I wouldn't take anything from the
struggle. I mean, maybe take a
Colette Fehr (43:10):
little bit from I was I was gonna say I could
think of a couple things I'llgive back, but I still got
something out of them. And youknow what? I think even we
should do a whole episode onresilience, because I think it's
a big topic, although wementioned it as a skill, and
it's foundational, again, to ourwork as therapists, and the
midlife master class where we dothe group coaching, because it's
(43:31):
kind of a blanket thing, but Iwant to say two things about it.
One is that there are people whohave endured unbelievable
hardships and tragedies andtraumas. And I know a lot of
clients I've worked with reallyresent this whole resilience,
like they resent the fact thatthey're so resilient because
they've had to be. And that's awhole nother level and category.
(43:52):
So I don't want to, you know,short thrift that at all that
no, the amount of loss somepeople have had, the amount of
like, like assaults, and, youknow, without deep, diving into
it, what we see and hear, and Iwas an EMDR therapist for many
years, like, sometimes what wego through to become resilient,
(44:12):
like, it just isn't fair and itisn't right. But there's also,
and I think what we're talkingabout here, the resilience, the
skill of specifically being ableto bounce back after mistakes,
after failures, and let go ofwhat you can't control. That's
how I see resilience as amidlife skill, is that, and it
(44:33):
goes along with frustrationtolerance and all of these other
skills, is okay. This isn't howI pictured my life to turn out,
the resilience is just saying,Okay, this is what is, and I
accept it, and I find my joywithin it, and I focus on what I
can control, and I understandthat, like life, many parts of
life are not going to be what wewant. What we see as therapists
(44:57):
is that people are most stuckwhen they're. Trying to force
things to be the way they thinkthey should be, instead of being
able to tolerate what is andeven if you don't love it, to be
able to accept and focus on theplaces that you have agency. So
I see that as instrumental toresilience.
Laura Bowman (45:15):
This is like the backbone of Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy, which Ilove, act therapy, if you want
to look it up, is one of themost beautiful concepts. But I
agree. But I too, have gotten somuch better at this, and it to
me, it's how I talk to myselfthrough the hard yep, I can. I
am narrating things in such abetter way, in a way that is
(45:39):
like more helpful, and I knowwhen I'm getting off track, and
I'm able to sort of pull myselfback, find perspective, find
gratitude, you know, figure outwhat the next right move is.
It's not perfect. I sit with,sitting with a lot of stuff
that's messy, but I'm narratingit differently. That's and
(46:01):
that's huge. That's
Colette Fehr (46:02):
huge because, as you're saying that that's
probably the biggest shift I'veseen in me, too. And I think
this is one of the best thingsthat could come out of therapy,
or like a good coachingexperience, is learning to talk
to yourself differently becauseit's so hard wired. I used to be
very berating and hard on myselfand critical of mistake, even
(46:27):
things like I'll tell clients,you know, even stubbing your toe
and saying like, you idiot, yourpsyche, your subconscious hears
that. So when things don't gothe right way or you make a
mistake, it is important to takeaccountability and to look at
what can I learn from this? Butwe don't have to do it in this
hateful, self loathing way. Somany of us think we have to be
(46:50):
hard on ourselves or we won'tperform. But what the research
shows is that we actuallyperform and succeed far better
when we're loving andencouraging in this tennis talk
I did, I said, you know, whenyou're on the court, talk to
yourself, coach yourself inside,because that's your self talk
like you would a five year oldtennis prodigy. I love it. This
kid has everything she needs tobe like in Wimbledon, and you
(47:15):
want to help her get better. Youdon't want to blow smoke and
gloss over the mistakes, but youdon't want to crush your
confidence and crush yourspirit. You want to nurture her
talent. So I think that's howmaybe this is a good note to end
on, that the changing the wayyou talk to yourself, and maybe
that's something you need somehelp with, but that is your
(47:36):
superpower. That's the gamechanger.
Laura Bowman (47:39):
Yeah, because things are going to be hard.
Yes, life is just hard. And youknow, if any of this stuff is
resonating with you, all thisstuff comes alive in a group.
You can go to therapy and youcan talk to one of us, and you
can live inside your bell jarand swirl around inside your own
head. But when you're in agroup, these concepts come alive
(48:01):
in surround sound in a way thatit's like, oh, other women are
here too. Or I see we're alwaysable to see things in other
people, where we're like, shecould totally do this, or she
could totally do that, wherewe're not able to see it in
ourselves. And so it's thatbouncing of energy off of each
other that becomes takes theselearnings to another
Colette Fehr (48:24):
level. Yep. So if any of this resonates, in
addition to our freebie sevenskills to master midlife, which
you can get it in insights fromthe couch.org, we also have a
midlife master class we do,which is a 12 week group
coaching program online, so it'savailable to anyone, anywhere in
the world, if you want to joinus. We're doing these groups in
(48:46):
an ongoing basis. Our next one'scoming up soon, but we'll have
one after that. So head to ourwebsite, insights from the
couch.org, and get on the waitlist if you're interested. If
you have any questions for us,join us in the chat. You can
also find that on our website,that's where we keep the
conversation going. Answerquestions about the podcast, and
(49:07):
if you have questions for futureguests, because we have some
fantastic guests coming up onhere, let us know in the chat.
We'd love to hear from you. Andas always, we hope you got some
great insights from our couchtoday, and we'll see you next
week.
Laura Bowman (49:22):
Bye guys, you.
Marc, Hi guys, today we are talking about a big
thing. We're talking about theseven skills you need to master
midlife. These are the skillsthat we think are the things
that are going to make midlifemanageable, help you get your
goals. These are the things thatwe really work with in our
(00:24):
midlife master class, and wewant to just dig really deep in
that to them today, right? Yeah,this is kind of the foundation
that you need at this stage oflife to live your best life. And
Laura and I were chatting beforewe got on just about how, you
know, we redid our website, andwe love it, and we had so much
(00:46):
fun doing it. And the picturesshow us so happy and laughing.
And it's not that we're notlike, happy, but it's the
highlight reel, right? It looksso sunny and like life is so
great. And I know I'm like, welook so damn good. We're cute,
right? And first of all, we'renot always that cute. And second
of all, life is really hard forall of us, I think, in so many
(01:08):
different ways. We've all gotour different challenges that
we're dealing with, but there'sa universality to it, which I
always find so comforting. Somany of us are going through so
many of the same things. We'retaking care of aging parents.
We're experiencing loss. We'reparenting children. Our children
have issues of some kind thatbreak our heart. We're worried
(01:32):
for them. We're busy. We'remanaging careers. We're
navigating relationships. Imean, I hear from so many people
because of how active I am onsocial media, and how much I
open up about my own maritalstruggles, my own divorce. You
know, then people know I'm acouples therapist. So many
people message me privately andsay, oh my god, I'm going
(01:53):
through exactly this right now.
You know, there's just so muchat midlife. Then we haven't even
mentioned, of course,perimenopause and menopause and
those enormous changes. So Ithink it's it's tough for all of
us, but these are the skillsthat Laura and I have curated
that we teach in the midlifemaster class. And we actually
have a freebie on our websitetoo, insights from the couch.org
(02:16):
where you can download thisexact like the document to go
back over all of this, but wewant to dive deep and give you
some value today that you canuse right away on how these
skills can help you. It's notgoing to make the challenges go
away, but it can make them alittle easier, yeah. And just
like to the to your point. Imean, there are so many times
(02:38):
that you and I sit together andjust cry,
just to be real. I mean, justcry and and I mean, life is so
much a game of like chutes andladders in Candy Land, and
sometimes you just cannotbelieve where you are in
(02:59):
moments. And you and Idefinitely are always grappling
with those things. Our lives arenot perfect, and I just one of
the things that has helped me somuch is doing therapy people.
People often say to me, and Idon't know if they say this to
you, how do you do this all day?
How do you sit here and listento people all day? Is this
exhausting for you? And I'mthinking, No, it's not
(03:20):
exhausting, and it's a reminder.
And I wish everybody could comein with me and just sit and
witness the human experience andwhat people go through, because
it's so normalizing, and yourealize, oh, everybody is
struggling with some version ofthe same, some of this? Yes,
(03:41):
yes, so, and I think what we'resaying with this episode today
is that some of the skills we'velearned as being therapists are
the things it's like thescaffolding that's made us able
to cope
Colette Fehr (03:55):
with hard, yep, beautifully said. It's so true.
I'm thinking about it. You know,one of the biggest benefits,
other than the fact that being atherapist is such a rewarding
job, it can be such achallenging job, and I'm not
going to pretend it's allsunshine and roses, but it is
rewarding to know you're doingsomething where you're really
impacting people and helpingthem, and it can be so
(04:16):
gratifying in that sense, like Ifeel like we couldn't have a
more meaningful, purposeful job.
So I love that. But the otherthing is that by becoming a
therapist, the training we gothrough in graduate school and
just sitting with people, notonly the normalization, but the
skills you need as a therapist,some of what we're going to talk
about today to be able tocommunicate assertively, to be
(04:38):
able to hold boundaries. It wasbecoming a therapist that helped
me develop a lot of theseskills. And if not for that, I'm
not sure I would have them all.
So as you guys listen to theseseven, some of these you may
already have pretty locked down.
Maybe all of them are still astruggle, but just be listening
for. Where you are and what youcould improve on, because we're
(05:01):
all a work in progress, and eventhough I've gotten so much
better at boundaries and I'm arecovering people pleaser, which
some people literally don'tbelieve that I could be a people
pleaser, because I have such astrong part that gives zero
fucks and is like, I'm doingwhat I want, but it depends on
the context, and in places whereI feel vulnerable, or I could
(05:23):
lose a relationship, or I'mafraid to offend or disappoint,
I used to have a very hard timeholding boundaries. I'm pretty
good at it now, but it's still astruggle. It's always a
struggle. It's always astruggle, right? And we're still
up against good girlconditioning that I call good
girl, itis. I don't care howpowerful you are at work, no one
wants to be the bitch, right?
(05:49):
And that's the problem. Often aswomen, we're seen as a total
bitch, if we're just a normal,assertive human being who isn't
constantly, like, rolling overon our bellies for the world,
right? So let's get into it.
Yeah, let's get into it. Okay,all right, so I don't know, we
don't have to go in ordernecessarily. Let's talk about
boundaries first, since we're onit.
Laura Bowman (06:12):
Okay? I mean, we talk so much about boundaries.
But as I was thinking about thistoday, I was thinking about our
Drama Triangle episode, and Iwas thinking that the part of
boundaries that we don't talkenough about is a part where we
understand what's on our side ofthe fence or our side of the I
just I envision, I envision myrelationships with other people,
(06:36):
like a tennis court, okay,right? And what's on my side of
the net is really mine, andwhat's on their side of the net
is really theirs. And I see somany people when they come into
therapy like completely tangledin the net, because they're
like, over the net into theirinto other people's space. And
so so much when we talk aboutboundaries, we're always like,
(06:58):
what do we need? Where do weneed to set boundaries? But part
of boundaries that we don't talkenough about is recognizing the
autonomy of other people andknowing where to step back from
other people and let people maketheir own choices do. I talked
about this a lot in the DramaTriangle, but it's it's a place
where where people just getreally messed up, yeah. And it
(07:22):
was, what was the thing you saidin our Drama Triangle episode? I
wrote it down because it was oneof our reels, and I was like, I
love this. I love this.
Colette Fehr (07:29):
I have no idea. I can't remember what I said five
minutes.
Laura Bowman (07:32):
Oh, my God, people have a foundationally distorted
perception of what they'reresponsible for with the people
that they care
Colette Fehr (07:39):
about. Oh, it gave me chills. My own words, yeah,
the mic it's so true, right? Micdrop. And you know, I love your
metaphor. First of all, I justgave a talk to a tennis team
about the mental game of tennis.
So tennis has been on my mind.
Oh, good. And also, I think it'ssuch a great visual metaphor,
because, you know, you'rewhether you play tennis or not,
(08:01):
I pictured somebody like in thenet, and then I also pictured
somebody, from a boundaryperspective, serving the ball
and then running to the otherside to try to hit the ball
back, and like, elbowing theperson out of the way so they
can return the shot, thenrunning back over. This is
metaphorically what a lot ofpeople are trying to do in life.
They're trying to manageeveryone. So we're talking about
(08:24):
not only having boundaries withother people, but self imposed
boundaries, recognizing when youfeel an urge to get involved
that maybe you don't have to.
Like I went to I won't even saywhich child, so that way. I keep
it a little bit anonymous, but Iwas with one of my children
yesterday and hearing about herplans and what's going on in her
(08:47):
relationship. She is an adult,and when I heard the details of
the current relationship, and Ijust wanted to pull every hair
out of my head and scream,
Laura Bowman (09:01):
he wanted to climb over the net run
Colette Fehr (09:03):
like this dude sounds like Bad News Bears like
I just, oh my god, from theapartment the animal he has the
she's never gonna listen to thisepisode. So thank God. My kids
are like, I have no interest inyour podcast, mom. Yeah, they're
like, that podcast for oldpeople, but I just this guy also
(09:25):
has, like, already has a trackrecord of not being super
honest, like, it's just awful.
And then she said to me, youknow, I know it's kind of toxic,
but, like, I just can't get outof it. And I mean, Ah, right? So
I was like, yes, you can you.
She goes, see, I don't reallyknow how to do it. I said, you
(09:45):
say, this isn't working for me.
Goodbye, right? So, and she'slike, well, that's real easy for
you to say, mom. But my point inthis is that every fiber of my
soul, we're walking around homegoods, and I'm hearing this. And
you know how expressive My faceis, and I know how expressive My
face is, so I'm trying to keepmy face neutral and impassive,
but I wanted to take her andjust say, No, you have to leave
(10:09):
this relationship. Now. Thisisn't good for you. It's only
gonna get worse. You're gonnaget hurt. I don't even know if
this guy is like, safe to bearound. What the fuck are you
doing? And we're ending thisnow, like, I literally want to
call the guy and break up withhim for her. So anyway, my point
as I go on and on here is that,you know, it may seem super
(10:30):
obvious that that's where Ishouldn't be involved, but I'm a
relationship therapist. My kidis suffering. I've had phone
calls from her sobbing over thisguy. He doesn't sound like a
great guy. And you know, I hadto have that moment where I
said, okay, all I can do isoffer like a tidbit or two if
I'm invited to to be here and tobe supportive, to give some
(10:54):
feedback. And she, at one point,she was like, Mom, I really
don't want to hear it like I'mnot. I really don't want to hear
it like I already know. I don'twant to hear it from you. And
I'm like, Okay, it's right. Oh,how many times have I been in a
toxic really? I've been in atoxic relationship, like at
twice her age, so I need to lether figure it out, even if she
gets hurt more, instead ofrunning onto the other side of
(11:18):
the tennis court,
Laura Bowman (11:20):
stealing the racket? Yes, yes, yeah. You
gotta let people have their owngrowth experiences and and to
that end, I think, and maybewe'll talk about it more in
other areas today, but it'sabout some people just don't
know what to do on their side ofthe court,
Colette Fehr (11:38):
right? You know?
They just because they're sobusy with the other side of the
corner, they're so busy
Laura Bowman (11:41):
and they just don't know what to do, and they
don't know how to redirect theirenergy back to themselves. But
so when I think of boundaries,yes, we do have to learn that no
is a complete sentence. We don'thave to over explain the amount
of people that love to overexplain to me. I mean, my God,
like you get good at sayingreally simple things, like, I
have a conflict. This isn'tgoing to work for me. Can we
(12:03):
come up with something else Idon't want to, I'm exhausted,
whatever that's available.
Colette Fehr (12:09):
Yeah, right, and I agree. I think there are some
context where an explanation iswarranted or helpful, but over
explaining, no, and we tend tothink we need to, and you're
right, just saying, you know,unfortunately, that won't work
for me. Can we do X, Y, Z, likeyou don't have to. You don't
really owe people anything?
Laura Bowman (12:31):
Yeah, and we've done a lot of episodes on
boundaries, right?
Colette Fehr (12:35):
But it just as a reminder having boundaries with
yourself too, not just with overextending with other people, but
I think part of boundaries alsois self care. Like, directed at
self care, you know, I'm notgoing to have I would eat like,
Krispy, Kreme donuts all day,every day, even on GLP one
(12:56):
shots. I would silly, yes, yes.
Like,
Laura Bowman (12:59):
that's so you have a boundary that says, like, I'm
not going to eat. Like, yeah, itcould
Colette Fehr (13:03):
probably better.
But like, I just, I don't I likejunky food that's like, what I
like. It's been that way sinceI'm a kid. You know, I'm going
to be 52 years old, and I'dstill rather eat that than
salads. But yes, a boundary, aself imposed boundary. And you
know for other people that onemost women eat far healthier
than I do, I think so maybethat's just an example that
(13:26):
pertains to me, but you know,making sure you're taking care
of yourself is holding aboundary, that you're drinking
enough water, that you'regetting enough sleep. Like those
are part of self care, takingcare of inner parts of self that
we have to implement on aregular basis,
Laura Bowman (13:44):
knowing how much exercise you need, how much
sleep you need, how much alcoholyou can tolerate, all those
things are self imposedboundaries, right? Not from a
punishing standpoint, but from aself loving, an awareness of
this is me. This is how I workbest,
Colette Fehr (13:59):
exactly. And I think from here, as we're
talking about these seven skillsto master midlife that we teach
in the midlife master class,let's go into assertive
communication for a minute,since we're on boundaries,
because that's another one ofthe skills, if you haven't
learned how to communicateassertively. And this is like my
whole career, my whole bookthat's coming out. It's so
(14:21):
misunderstood, I think it's veryimportant to be diplomatic. And
as women, my hope for everywoman is at this season of life,
we come into our own, we findour voice, and we can be direct
and clear, but still diplomatic,still kind. We don't have to be
(14:42):
nice and caving, but it'sexactly what you're saying.
Laura, you know, I can't dothat. I'm not comfortable with
that. No, here's when I'mavailable. Here's when I'm not
available. What I will tell youas somebody who or and not to
mention bringing up what bothersyou. You in your relationship
and being able to communicateclearly what you need, but I
(15:05):
will tell you as someone whoreally struggled to be
assertive, I was passiveaggressive. I would just say yes
to things that I didn't want todo because I felt like I should,
because I felt like I would bejudged, or I would be seen to
this or that, and then I feelresentful and frustrated and all
of that stuff. Once you startexercising this muscle and
(15:27):
seeing how well most peoplerespond to kind clear, direct
communication, it becomes soeasy.
Laura Bowman (15:39):
Yeah, and I, and I also think this is, this is an
area that's been hard for me.
I've developed asymmetrically onthis. I think most people do
develop asymmetrically, andmeaning that there's areas where
you can get really good. I'mreally good at this in certain
areas with close others, andwho's good at this with my inner
circle, my inner circle, like,it's very real here in our
(16:03):
house, right? Nothing, nothingis left unsaid, right? So it's,
you know, it's very easy for meto say, like that hurt my
feelings, that wasn't helpful.
That's not okay with me. Youknow, I can say the real thing
with close others. I've alsogotten pretty good at it with
(16:24):
work, because it had to, yep, metoo. I think where I struggle
the most with it is where Iknow, where I just I go. I don't
know if it's worth it. You know,if it's there's somebody that I
think I could say that that hurtmy feelings, or I could say that
that bothered me, but I don'tknow if it's worth it. Like, I
(16:46):
don't know if I really want todeal with that, and sometimes
I'll inhibit still on momentslike that and with strangers, I
do not like conflict withstrangers. Me neither. Like if
somebody gets aggressive with mein the car. I just like pretend
I don't see them. If somebody'slike, I do not fight back. I am
like, I'm like, a how quicklycan we get through this without
(17:07):
having to have conflict? But,but I'm much better in
situations where I have to sendfood back or ask for what
exactly that what I need. Idon't sit there and eat a meal I
didn't order.
Colette Fehr (17:19):
Oh, my God. I find that insane. And also what I
think is missing is you can doit nicely. I will always send
food back or explain what isn'tright in food, but I'm always
nice about it, you know? And Ithink that's the part to me,
that's the part that's missingfor a lot of people, because
(17:40):
some people will only assertthemselves when they're relying
on a burst of emotion or angerto propel them, and so then it
can sometimes come out sideways.
Now hopefully, part of our skillhere is the emotional regulation
of being able to sometimes youare angry and you still have to
regulate yourself enough. Butthe beauty of assertiveness is
it saying the thing withoutrelying on anger to make you
(18:04):
like to make it easy, becausewhen you're angry, you don't
care, you're just say the thing,right? You fire it off. But
usually it doesn't come outbest. And I think what you're
saying about sometimes it's notworth it. I actually think
that's part of the process thatwe should be having for
everything. I don't think wehave to say everything. Yeah,
(18:25):
sometimes it isn't worth it. ButI think the problem is so many
women that we see in our officeas therapists, friends we have,
and I know how we both used tobe more is that we're not saying
things that need to be said,like you're okay. Maybe we're
saying in our households,nothing goes unsaid. But let's
(18:48):
say it's a particularlystressful time in our husband's
job, or we've been fighting alot lately, and there's
something that needs to be said,but it feels like, oh my god,
this is going to lead to anotherfreaking fight. I'm exhausted.
I'm not even sure I'm going tobe heard. Why bother? Those are
the things that we're saying.
(19:09):
You know what? That's where youprobably need to push yourself
to say it anyway. It doesn'thave to be that second, but it
needs to be said, becauseotherwise, when it comes to
close relationships or work, ifwe start to swallow things that
matter, and we rationalize themaway. We end up so filled with
resentment, and this is thefoundation of my book, the cost
(19:31):
of quiet, why these things haveto be said? Because in the long
run, it isn't worth the cost ofkeeping it in but you have a
friend that you don't know thatwell. You know, you don't see
her that often. She saidsomething that hurt your
feelings. Maybe the relationshipisn't close enough. It's not
worth it to be like, hey, yeah,when we went to lunch on
(19:53):
Thursday, what you said reallyhurt my feeling. You know, maybe
it is if you're gonna like, ifshe's important to you and
you're gonna resent. And it'sgoing to affect the friendship.
Maybe it is, but if you don'tcare that much, you let it go,
Laura Bowman (20:05):
right, right, right. So discernment is a huge
piece of it, but I definitelyagree with close people like
your partner. I think when youlet those things fester, it
people end up pulling away fromeach other and just living in
their like Silent littleencampments. And you never get
your needs met anyway. Sofiguring out how to say the real
(20:26):
thing in a warm and appropriateway that's assertive, yes, like
is a chef's kiss skill thateverybody needs at
Colette Fehr (20:35):
this Yes. And let me add one more thing before we
move on, because I know we havea lot more to get to that part
of this is learning to toleratethe frustration that comes with
knowing sometimes you willdisappoint someone. There are
people who won't have a goodreaction, you know, and that's
okay. The more you do that, themore you realize, oh, it's
(20:56):
really, actually not that bad.
There's no way to feel for it,to feel more comfortable
Laura Bowman (21:01):
than to you know, when you say that, I feel like
that skill needs to be in hereis like the frustration
tolerance, the negativitytolerance. Let's make that on
here. That needs to be
Colette Fehr (21:10):
one, and because we do teach that in the midlife
master, yeah, yeah, it'stolerating
Laura Bowman (21:15):
disappointing people tolerated, tolerating
being disappointed. Frustrationtolerance, yeah, frustration
tolerance is a skill, man, sothat's just pinging for me that
we've got to go right to selfconnected communication. Because
to me, this is the skill of mylifetime. This has been one of
the biggest breakthroughs I'vemade. And I think me too huge
(21:39):
shift when people make this thisshift, and I I've learned it
mainly from internal familysystems. And if you don't know
what internal family systems,it's Dick Schwartz's work out of
Harvard. And he talks about howwithin all of us, we have an
internal family, just like awhole group of people living
inside of us that are differentparts, the the critic, the
(22:03):
small, younger children,perfectionists, the angry part.
There are all sorts of
Colette Fehr (22:10):
scared little kids, scared
Laura Bowman (22:12):
little kids, all of it is inside. And so many
people walk around the worldjust hijacked into a part all
the time. They live throughtheir angry part. They live
through their critic, they livethrough their perfectionist, and
they're not what we call selfLED. And being led by the self
is a totally different vibe.
It's where you're calm, you'reconfident, you're connected,
(22:33):
you're compassionate, you'recreative. It's this you're
curious, or source you'recurious. Yeah, it's, it's a
totally different energy source.
And when you have a part that'sleading you around, as opposed
to having the self lead thoseparts, oh, man, it's totally
different. And it's been a hugeshift I've made. I have a hell
(22:56):
of an angry part. I mean, my myangry part, I seem so chill,
right? Yeah, chill. People tendto have very intense, angry
parts. So true. I have to havelike somebody to defend the
castle, right,
Colette Fehr (23:09):
right? So, right.
It's a protective part of veryprotective Yeah. And in ifs
therapy, they call these partsfirefighters or managers, where
a manager is a part that comesout and tries to, just like a
manager at a company, right,like, make sure everything goes
a certain way. A firefighter isa part that comes out, from a
scientific standpoint, when yournervous system is at max
(23:31):
capacity, and that part justcomes out right and to make
whatever's happening stop so thenervous system can cool down.
And the problem with beinghijacked by a firefighter part
of self is that that part hasone goal and one goal only, and
that's to put out the fire so itdoesn't care who's hurt and what
the consequences are in theprocess. And I'm with you that
(23:54):
this has been a life changingthing for me. It's the
foundation of what I do incouples therapy, because fight
or flight is when we get intothese parts. And emotional
regulation is so much of a partof relationship struggle. And I
learned to do parts work,because Dick Schwartz is
wonderful, and I love ifs, buthe didn't come up with this
(24:16):
either. You know, there's otherversions of it around, yeah,
well, and ego state therapy,yeah, and going all the way back
to object relations, but anyway,not to get too psycho babbling
that when I became an EMDRtherapist, which is the eye
movement trauma therapy, for youguys who aren't familiar with
it, we do a ton of ego state andparts work because it helps you
(24:41):
to have a relationship like weall have these parts of self,
and they're going to pop out indifferent moments. But I think a
big foundation of our work astherapists and our work in the
midlife masterclass is helpingall of us get in touch with our
own internal family, our. Owninternal team, to know all of
these parts, to accept them andto listen to them. But like you
(25:05):
said, Laura, to put the wisest,most grounded adult self driving
the bus leading the system. Icall that the sage self, and
that is the you, you know, Ialways picture my sage self as,
like I for some reason, I havebrown hair. I'm wearing no
makeup. I mean, I am a brunette,but, like, I hate how I look
(25:27):
with brown hair. But anyway, inthis image, I have brown hair,
no makeup, wearing these rattypants that have like a hole in
them, these old yoga pants Ilost and miss and I'm barefoot.
That is the image that comes tome for my sage self, and why
this is such a skill. Andanother one of the skills we
talk about is having a goodrelationship with your inner
(25:48):
critic. Is because anytime Ifeel lost or I feel overwhelmed
or I'm getting rattled, I cancheck in with I can close my
eyes, I put my hand on my heart,and I can check in with that
sage self, that girl with thebrown hair that looks terrible,
but she's so like calm andhappy. It's like your intuition.
(26:11):
You know it's your wisest self,but having the relationship
established as an ongoingpractice, and a skill is what
enables you to have access tothat part in a difficult moment.
Yeah,
Laura Bowman (26:28):
I mean, this is like half of what I do when I
walk. You know that mymeditative walks, I am talking
to parts, and I let them comeup. They come up anyway. I mean,
they, when I get into my body,my parts kind of soften and
rise, and so knowing them, whenthey come up, I'm ahead of them.
(26:49):
I can feel in my body when thatanger piece is getting going,
it's it's got a very cyclicalenergy in my system, and I can
get ahead of it and go, I'mhere, like, I'm going to handle
this. I don't fly off the handleany in the same way I used to
when I was younger, when I wasso unconscious. Me too. Now
(27:11):
it's, I go to that part. Ilisten to that part. I'm like,
Okay, what do you I got this?
I'm going to handle it. My wiseadults, going to handle it
right, and just that, thatslowing down, that being mindful
of those parts, it's a gamechanger in how you function.
Colette Fehr (27:30):
I agree, and it's really, it's not an intellectual
I mean, it's hard to again. Thisis something we do
experientially in our group, andwe do experientially as
therapists all the time. It's aprocess. It's really not enough
to know, oh, this is, this is, Ihave that part of me
intellectually felt sense,right? You have to actually
(27:51):
connect to it. So what I wouldsay, if you're listening to this
episode and you're not doing ourclass, we're seeing a therapist
who does this kind of work, isjust start by closing your eyes
for 30 seconds and notice whatparts pop up. Notice what voice
you hear. I'm very visual. I seeeverything like a movie,
something I can't visualize atall. So don't force anything.
(28:13):
But images may come to you, andif not, you'll hear a voice like
one of our other skills, like Imentioned, is the inner critic.
You will often hear an innercritic part. Mine is named Jane,
and that's my middle name. It'salso my mom's name, but it has
nothing to do with that. Andmom, I know you're probably
listening, so please don't takeit that way. It's just more
(28:35):
Alter Ego, and she's in a suit,and she's very polished, but
she's very exacting, and she'svery quick to be like, Oh God,
Colette, really like, we'restill doing this. This isn't
good enough. Like, how could youmake that same mistake? Now she
has her value. She's trying toprotect me and help me, but that
I have a whole relationship withthat part of me where I try to
(28:57):
thank her for her feedback. Butagain, come back to my yoga
pants girl and let her drive thebus. So it is so important
because the brain runs negativeand it's a survival imperative.
We all have an inner critic, andsome of ours are harsher than
others. If you grew up in anenvironment where parents were
very critical, your schoolenvironment was critical. It may
(29:21):
be even stronger. Just start tonotice that voice. Close your
eyes for a minute and see if youcan get curious. Part of what we
do is to speak to these partsdirectly, like you're talking
about Laura, asking them, hey,what do you want me to know?
What are
Laura Bowman (29:37):
you afraid of?
Yes, what are you afraid?
They're usually very afraid ofthings. Yeah, they don't step
in, and they're
Colette Fehr (29:43):
very afraid that the worst will happen if they
don't do what they're doing. Sosometimes, when we can hear
those messages and from thatsage self say, hey, that makes
sense. And like, I've got youI'm here, that adult self is
here now, and I can handle it.
It's very. Very grounding. It'svery calming, and this really
helps us know ourselves, thensometimes how we're polarized,
(30:06):
where one part of us wants onething and one part of us wants
another. So if we can developrelationships, we can get
answers from the self.
Laura Bowman (30:18):
Yes, it's so it's it's such a game changer. And
obviously you can imagine howit's a game changer in
relationships, because you'renot pulled as quickly into the
fight or flight, or if you are,you have a way of slowing it
down. I obviously, you know myinner critic, bons, she's an
interject of like my mother andmy grandmothers, and she is a
(30:39):
pill. She can be harsh. Shecomes like, that's what you're
wearing. Like, Oh, really. Likeyou're doing that. Like, what?
Why are you doing that?
Colette Fehr (30:48):
Yeah, we've talked about the fact that, like, we
both grew up in kind of, like,elitist environment, so we both
have, like, our inner criticshave a little hottie side.
They're
Laura Bowman (30:58):
hottie and, yeah, breathing, and you have to Yeah,
Colette Fehr (31:01):
and that is not who I am at all. But no, we
internalize our environment. Sothere's a part of self that can
come out like that,
Laura Bowman (31:10):
and this is the seat, as you can imagine, of
self compassion, yes, like whenpeople are like, I have no self
compassion. I can't be I can'tforgive myself. I can't be be
compassionate towards self. Whenyou have relationships with the
inner, the inner system, self,compassion becomes obvious. All
right, let's go to the next one,because we're we're running
Colette Fehr (31:31):
long, okay, I want to talk about two more that I
think we need to talk about,since we're adapting this as we
go protecting energy andresilience, let's touch on those
two.
Laura Bowman (31:43):
Yeah, I mean protecting energy, I find that
it's just understanding I'm oneof these people that my energy
goes out the door. I've beenparenting for 24 years almost. I
am a therapist, so I hold spacefor people. Professionally, I my
energy perks up when there'ssomebody to listen to or take
care of. And then when I am withmyself, I can sometimes deflate
(32:07):
like a balloon and be like, Oh,finally, I'm like, by myself and
so and then I perk up again whenthere's somebody to attend to.
And I see that a lot, thatpeople don't even know how to be
with themselves or how to evensit with their own energy. And
for a long time, I said to you,how many years did I say to you?
I feel like I'm stuck in, like,literally, the foreground of my
(32:28):
life. I go to the store, I doanother load of laundry, I pick
up another kid from school, likeit's rinse and repeat. I felt
like I was living in a circleand that nothing ever really
came back to me that I wasn'tever really building anything,
and it really running saved mein this in this regard, because
it was the one ritual I hadwhere I did come home to myself,
(32:51):
yeah, and it's only been in thelast five to seven years, I
think, where I've Reallymindfully taken a good deal more
for myself, Yes, and built myown, my own side of my court.
Yes, my own identity.
Colette Fehr (33:08):
Exactly, exactly.
Building the tennis court thatyou want and dream of mine would
be all pink. Yeah, I'm justpicturing. That's what came to
me, like a pink tennis court.
I'm such a feels very clueless.
That's okay. I'm down with that.
But you know, I as you'retalking and we're so different
(33:30):
in terms of our energy sources,so we're sort of like a yin and
yang energetically, and when Icome alive around people, but
when it's like light and socialand intellectually stimulating.
And, you know, my favorite thingto do would be to spend 24 hours
in a cafe and like a Europeansidewalk, just engaging with
(33:53):
people having conversations. Theold version of this would be
with cigarettes and copiousamounts of wine. I'll still take
Unknown (34:00):
it pop in for an hour.
Yes, yeah, be there for 24
Colette Fehr (34:04):
Yes. Like, I would be so alive and engaged and
excited, because people bring meenergy. But I also think whether
it's needing time alone, needingtime with people, the idea of
protecting your energy is thatit really is a way that we're
parenting ourselves. All theseskills are about parenting
yourself, that inner child isstill in there, and we have to
(34:26):
be a good steward of our wholesystem. We have to be good
leaders. We have to take care ofourselves, and we have to make
sure there's time and space forwhatever energizes us. So to me,
also, it's a matter ofprotecting my energy and my life
is a matter of making sure,because I'm in a very busy work
(34:47):
season, that it isn't all work,work, work, work, work, like I
have a strong ID part, you knowthat I call fuck it girl, and
she's the one who wants to godance and drink and smoke.
Cigarettes and talk and havefun, and she doesn't care about
work or anything serious, andthat's also a super fun part of
(35:07):
me. So I need to make sure thatthat part gets some space and
still gets to breathe and live,because otherwise my energy will
get depleted if I'm allresponsibility, all serious
Colette, all psychology, allwork, then I start to get out of
balance. And that can happen soeasily,
Laura Bowman (35:29):
yeah, and my version of this is very Martha
Stewart, like, I need to be likearound my house. I need to be
creative. I need to be able tosort of wander. I love to be
with myself, yeah. I just feelas though, as women and maybe as
I'm sort of more of a caregivertype, that I my energy sort of
(35:50):
perks to attention when I'mneeded, and I can get a lot
more. I don't know that on wewhen I'm not needed, yeah, so I
think learning how to masteryour energy and reclaim your
energy and say, like, This ismine. I'm actually putting time
into building my own energysource. Like, I see women that
(36:11):
can come alive for theirchildren in ways that is, like,
so incredible. Like, they'rethey've got like, a five point
plan for the college essayprocess. And you know, they're
booking trips all over thecountry for themselves, but they
cannot find a shred of energyfor themselves, right?
Colette Fehr (36:30):
And if that is even remotely resonating with
you, you don't have to changeyour whole paradigm. But like
think about claiming back 20%like we've said before, 20% of
your energy for you. You know,in our first episode, when we
talked about meaning andpurpose, which is, I still love
that episode. If you haven'tlistened to it, check it out.
(36:51):
Literally, episode number one,we talk a lot about that, about
how much time and energy shouldgo toward you. And you know,
there's different theories, butsome should be going just to
you, if you're giving it allaway to other people, right?
That is going to that is goingto blow up in your face
eventually, if it hasn'talready, we're not designed as
(37:14):
human beings to run our lifelike I always say to people,
you're not a human vendingmachine. You're not just there
waiting for people to push yourbuttons and eat all your snacks.
I love that. I mean,
Laura Bowman (37:25):
these are the same people who are caught in the
net, right? You know, right?
They're caught in the net.
They're over the other side ofthe court. And if you don't
learn that, to, like, reallyinvest in your side of the
court. Yep, you people will takefrom you, and you'll be the
point person for all the ages,you'll be the fucking giving
tree, and you will and and youprobably have unrealistic
(37:46):
expectations of what otherpeople are supposed to be doing
for you, so you're resentful,yeah, and it's just a mess.
Colette Fehr (37:53):
It's a mess. You know, it's so interesting to
just random, quick side note.
And then let's touch onresilience. I don't really
derive anything from beingneeded. Like, I don't that's not
like a thing for me. It's sointeresting. And I do feel like
I'm needed. Maybe I just feelneeded, so I don't think about
it, but in a way, when I thinkabout no one needing me, I feel
(38:14):
a surge of like, joy, like, Idon't think that that is maybe
it's just I'm not. I know I'm inthe helping profession, and I'm
care deeply about people, but Idon't get anything out of that
role or wanting to be needed.
Like, to me, I feel great when Isee my kids don't need me.
(38:38):
They're thriving without me likeI like the autonomous and I
don't I'm not saying you feel itin a healthy way. I'm just
musing about a difference, thatI feel the most free when, like
you, I love being with myself,but when no one is expecting
anything of me or wantinganything for me, and I can just
(39:00):
like, be in the world like alittle free bird?
Laura Bowman (39:04):
Yeah, I feel like I'm more ambivalent about it. I
love that book, The UnbearableLightness of Being.
Colette Fehr (39:09):
That's my Milan Kundra. I've read it four times.
It's one of my all time favoritebooks.
Laura Bowman (39:15):
But I love, I like, I think there's always
this struggle between wantingweight in my life. This is for
me, like wanting weight, meaningthat I'm tied, like an anchor to
sort certain priorities, andthen, like, fighting for
lightness, like I kind of wantto be, but I don't want to be
too light, like and maybe that'sthe difference here. But I just,
(39:36):
I need some I need that tensionto be just right for me. I agree
Colette Fehr (39:40):
with that, and I think that's a separate thing,
even though, right? I mean,that's the point of the book.
It's a philosophy, philosophybook, but with lots of story in
it, yeah, that like, right? It'sif nothing means anything, you
blow away, right? So there doeshave to be enough grounding,
like, sometimes. I think, Oh, myGod, if I were like a
(40:01):
billionaire, and I could justtravel and chat with people and
try food and go to museums andread books, but no, I actually
wouldn't want that. I mean, I'mnot gonna, like, turn it away,
but I would need. I need, and Ithink most of us need, it's back
to purpose and meaning.
Everything can't be fun, or itjust becomes meaningless. It
(40:24):
becomes pointless. And then weget into on we so I think we
need the like gravitas, and wedo need people. Maybe I don't
want to be needed, but I want tobe tethered. I want to have
meaning.
Laura Bowman (40:37):
I would suggest a really distinct difference, but
it's important. I want to betethered. I don't want to be
clung to.
Colette Fehr (40:43):
No, okay, amen to that. Oh, I just got goosebumps
every time it's like, so true,your body just responds exactly.
You don't want to be you want tobe tethered, but we don't want
to be like tangled or suffocatedor smothered. Yeah, right. So
(41:05):
all of these skills we'retalking about, and as we round
out and again, you guys candownload this. It's a free
resource on our website,insights from the couch.org.
Seven skills to master midlife,and we give you some little
tidbits to get you thinking andpracticing, it's totally free.
So check that out. But the lastone, resilience, I do really see
(41:27):
this as a skill more than it isan innate capacity,
Laura Bowman (41:31):
yeah, and I think it just is what we're talking
about. You know, the idea oflike that life would be so easy,
and how great that would be.
I've, I've had really easy partsof my life, and they didn't they
didn't feel great.
Colette Fehr (41:46):
No, I actually the time in my life that it was the
easiest. I was miserable. I wasreally miserable, the time in
life that I had the most money,the most resources, the least
pushing on me, the fewest cares.
Now, part of that is like Iwasn't happy in my relationship.
Maybe I would have experiencedit differently if I was, but
regardless, I felt like I hadparts of myself that weren't
(42:08):
developed, things I wanted to dobut I didn't know what the hell
they were. There was nothingpushing me to have to do
anything. So I couldn't reallyget started. And I did have this
sense of on we and then also aworse sense of like I should be
happy. Why aren't I happy? Ihave everything. I was fucking
miserable. I'm way now that mylife is messy and filled with
(42:31):
struggle,
Laura Bowman (42:34):
I have to agree.
You know, I have to agree,because my life in the last
couple of years has not beenlike the easiest for multiple
reasons that I'm happy to getinto it another time, because I
don't want to be turn this intomy therapy, but I will say that
this has been such a powerfulseason of growth for me, and
even though it hasn't been easy,it's been satisfying. Yes, okay,
(42:55):
that's it. Yeah, so and theother parts were easy, but they
Colette Fehr (43:03):
weren't satisfying,
Laura Bowman (43:04):
exactly. So I wouldn't take anything from the
struggle. I mean, maybe take a
Colette Fehr (43:10):
little bit from I was I was gonna say I could
think of a couple things I'llgive back, but I still got
something out of them. And youknow what? I think even we
should do a whole episode onresilience, because I think it's
a big topic, although wementioned it as a skill, and
it's foundational, again, to ourwork as therapists, and the
midlife master class where we dothe group coaching, because it's
(43:31):
kind of a blanket thing, but Iwant to say two things about it.
One is that there are people whohave endured unbelievable
hardships and tragedies andtraumas. And I know a lot of
clients I've worked with reallyresent this whole resilience,
like they resent the fact thatthey're so resilient because
they've had to be. And that's awhole nother level and category.
(43:52):
So I don't want to, you know,short thrift that at all that
no, the amount of loss somepeople have had, the amount of
like, like assaults, and, youknow, without deep, diving into
it, what we see and hear, and Iwas an EMDR therapist for many
years, like, sometimes what wego through to become resilient,
(44:12):
like, it just isn't fair and itisn't right. But there's also,
and I think what we're talkingabout here, the resilience, the
skill of specifically being ableto bounce back after mistakes,
after failures, and let go ofwhat you can't control. That's
how I see resilience as amidlife skill, is that, and it
(44:33):
goes along with frustrationtolerance and all of these other
skills, is okay. This isn't howI pictured my life to turn out,
the resilience is just saying,Okay, this is what is, and I
accept it, and I find my joywithin it, and I focus on what I
can control, and I understandthat, like life, many parts of
life are not going to be what wewant. What we see as therapists
(44:57):
is that people are most stuckwhen they're. Trying to force
things to be the way they thinkthey should be, instead of being
able to tolerate what is andeven if you don't love it, to be
able to accept and focus on theplaces that you have agency. So
I see that as instrumental toresilience.
Laura Bowman (45:15):
This is like the backbone of Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy, which Ilove, act therapy, if you want
to look it up, is one of themost beautiful concepts. But I
agree. But I too, have gotten somuch better at this, and it to
me, it's how I talk to myselfthrough the hard yep, I can. I
am narrating things in such abetter way, in a way that is
(45:39):
like more helpful, and I knowwhen I'm getting off track, and
I'm able to sort of pull myselfback, find perspective, find
gratitude, you know, figure outwhat the next right move is.
It's not perfect. I sit with,sitting with a lot of stuff
that's messy, but I'm narratingit differently. That's and
(46:01):
that's huge. That's
Colette Fehr (46:02):
huge because, as you're saying that that's
probably the biggest shift I'veseen in me, too. And I think
this is one of the best thingsthat could come out of therapy,
or like a good coachingexperience, is learning to talk
to yourself differently becauseit's so hard wired. I used to be
very berating and hard on myselfand critical of mistake, even
(46:27):
things like I'll tell clients,you know, even stubbing your toe
and saying like, you idiot, yourpsyche, your subconscious hears
that. So when things don't gothe right way or you make a
mistake, it is important to takeaccountability and to look at
what can I learn from this? Butwe don't have to do it in this
hateful, self loathing way. Somany of us think we have to be
(46:50):
hard on ourselves or we won'tperform. But what the research
shows is that we actuallyperform and succeed far better
when we're loving andencouraging in this tennis talk
I did, I said, you know, whenyou're on the court, talk to
yourself, coach yourself inside,because that's your self talk
like you would a five year oldtennis prodigy. I love it. This
kid has everything she needs tobe like in Wimbledon, and you
(47:15):
want to help her get better. Youdon't want to blow smoke and
gloss over the mistakes, but youdon't want to crush your
confidence and crush yourspirit. You want to nurture her
talent. So I think that's howmaybe this is a good note to end
on, that the changing the wayyou talk to yourself, and maybe
that's something you need somehelp with, but that is your
(47:36):
superpower. That's the gamechanger.
Laura Bowman (47:39):
Yeah, because things are going to be hard.
Yes, life is just hard. And youknow, if any of this stuff is
resonating with you, all thisstuff comes alive in a group.
You can go to therapy and youcan talk to one of us, and you
can live inside your bell jarand swirl around inside your own
head. But when you're in agroup, these concepts come alive
(48:01):
in surround sound in a way thatit's like, oh, other women are
here too. Or I see we're alwaysable to see things in other
people, where we're like, shecould totally do this, or she
could totally do that, wherewe're not able to see it in
ourselves. And so it's thatbouncing of energy off of each
other that becomes takes theselearnings to another
Colette Fehr (48:24):
level. Yep. So if any of this resonates, in
addition to our freebie sevenskills to master midlife, which
you can get it in insights fromthe couch.org, we also have a
midlife master class we do,which is a 12 week group
coaching program online, so it'savailable to anyone, anywhere in
the world, if you want to joinus. We're doing these groups in
(48:46):
an ongoing basis. Our next one'scoming up soon, but we'll have
one after that. So head to ourwebsite, insights from the
couch.org, and get on the waitlist if you're interested. If
you have any questions for us,join us in the chat. You can
also find that on our website,that's where we keep the
conversation going. Answerquestions about the podcast, and
(49:07):
if you have questions for futureguests, because we have some
fantastic guests coming up onhere, let us know in the chat.
We'd love to hear from you. Andas always, we hope you got some
great insights from our couchtoday, and we'll see you next
week.
Laura Bowman (49:22):
Bye guys, you.
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