September 17, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of Insights from the Couch, we're diving into one of the most talked-about but least understood challenges many women face at midlife: imposter syndrome. We're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, and we're getting real about the self-doubt that shows up right when we're trying to level up in life, work, and relationships.
We unpack why imposter syndrome hits so hard in midlife, how it keeps you stuck in comparison and perfectionism, and why it's time to ditch the stilettos and stop shrinking. We also share our personal stories of growth, setbacks, vulnerability, and what it actually looks like to push through imposter feelings and get back in the arena. This one is heartfelt, funny, and packed with real tools you can use to build confidence, reframe your inner dialogue, and reclaim your space—because your worth is not up for debate.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] - Kicking off with why imposter syndrome is so real for women in midlife
[1:10] - Defining imposter syndrome and the mental trap it creates
[2:34] - The impact of shifting identity and risk-taking at midlife
[7:06] - Laura's story: inherited privilege and narrative excuses
[15:08] - Perfectionism, performance pressure, and playing small
[16:45] - The shift to embracing grit and a growth mindset
[19:57] - Naming the struggle and the power of vulnerability
[23:24] - Building a stack of evidence: celebrating micro wins
[24:41] - Taking messy action and staying in the arena
[26:35] - Rewriting the inner dialogue with self-compassion
[27:12] - Recommended reads to help rewire imposter thinking
[28:35] - Feeling fear means you're growing: normalizing discomfort
[30:36] - Growing into big roles and owning your worth
[32:01] - Ego strength vs. anxiety and visibility fears
[33:43] - From cringe to confident: the social media journey
[34:30] - Reflecting on each other's strengths and sharing the love
Links and Resources:
- Own Your Greatness: Overcome Impostor Syndrome, Beat Self-Doubt, and Succeed in Life https://www.amazon.com/Own-Your-Greatness-Overcome-Self-Doubt-ebook/dp/B07ZZHY1Z8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=
- The Imposter Cure: Beat insecurities and gain self-belief: https://www.amazon.com/Imposter-Cure-Beat-insecurities-self-belief/dp/1783256273/ref=monarch_sidesheet_title
- Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well https://www.amazon.com/Thanks-Feedback-Science-Receiving-Well/dp/0670014664
- Mindset: The New Psychology of Success: https://a.co/d/5P8Mri5
If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!
🎙️ Love the podcast? Come talk about episodes with us inside The Midlife Chat. It’s a free, private community just for women at midlife who want to keep these conversations going. We’ve created this space for real talk, fresh resources, and honest connection—where you can share ideas and resources, ask questions, and get support from women navigating the same season. Come join us—we’d love to have you!
👉 [Join The Midlife Chat here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/795863256460970/?rdid=QDc8ryzocgFpBrbm#]
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:03):
Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where
real conversations meet real
Laura Bowman (00:07):
life. At midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two
therapists and best friends,walking through the journey
right alongside you, whetheryou're feeling stuck, restless
or just unsure of what's next.
This is a space for honestconversations, messy truths and
meaningful change.
Colette Fehr (00:26):
And our midlife master class is now open. If
you're looking to level up, getinto action and make midlife the
best season yet. Go to insightsfrom the couch.org and join our
wait list. Now let's dive in.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. We're so glad you're
here listening today as we'regoing to talk about imposter
syndrome and overcoming it atmidlife. This is something we
(00:49):
women are so saddled with, andmen never seem to struggle with,
so unfair. But we're going todefine it. We're going to talk
about why it pops up even morenow than ever, and how you can
get it out of your life for God,let's dive in. Laura, what do
you think this is such animportant topic?
Laura Bowman (01:10):
It is an important topic. And I, I have so many
clients that report this like,this is something that people,
like women, literally come totherapy about, or it comes up in
therapy all the time. And Iguess for me, I was thinking
about it because I knew we'regoing to talk about it. And I
sort of break it into two, likelarge, like, roughly, large
(01:31):
camps. And I feel like it's thewomen that are trapped outside
the arena. Like, if you go backto Brene Brown's quote, where
she said at the end of hersecond TED talk, I was gonna go
in the arena when I was perfect,when I was bulletproof. But that
day never comes. So it's likethese women that are like, I'll
(01:51):
go in when, you know, I'll butthere's they're in their head
constantly about, like theydon't have the credential, or
they never went to school forthat, or who are they to want
the thing? So they're outsidethe arena, and then they're the
women that get inside the arena,and then they're saddled with a
whole other like it never ends,because now it's like, I'm not
(02:14):
as good as am I? Am I goodenough? Should I be here? Is
somebody going to tap me on theshoulder and ask me to leave.
Yeah, I mean, so I see it aslike, it just doesn't. It
doesn't seem to get better,whether you're on the outside or
the inside. It's something thatcan it's a mindset and a way of
being that can hold, carry you
Colette Fehr (02:34):
through. Yes, and it can be overcome. So first of
all, I feel like I have tomention that some estimates show
as much as 75% of executivewomen who are super educated and
qualified suffer from impostersyndrome. And let me just define
it for a second. Impostersyndrome specifically is
doubting your abilities, feelinglike you're not good enough,
(02:58):
feeling like what many womenreport psychologically, you're
about to be discovered any daynow. People are going to realize
that you don't belong there.
You're not really good enough.
You're going to be outed, you'regoing to be humiliated, and
you're going to be cast out. Andthis is not commensurate with
the actual level of experience.
So it's this sense that peoplehave overestimated you, that
(03:20):
you've somehow ended up in thisposition by luck. Men, on the
other hand, tend to feel, evenif they have no qualifications,
you know, they sit with theirlegs spread, they take up space.
They're like, I'm here. I knowmy shit. I have the most
important voice in the room. Wehave five PhDs, like an MD, PhD,
and we're like, I don't know ifI should say something, because
(03:44):
someone else might thinkdifferently. It's I'm
exaggerating, but only slightly.
I mean, whatever
Laura Bowman (03:52):
your political leanings, this just comes to
mind of like Donald Trump andHillary Clinton. You know here
Hillary Clinton is, like, herwhole life is one calculated,
intentional step after another,and like, Donald Trump's like,
I'm here. I've got
Colette Fehr (04:09):
ideas. Show guy, I'm qualified to be president,
which is such
Laura Bowman (04:14):
the way it is, because men will have literally
one qualification or half aqualification, and they throw
another hat in the ring.
Colette Fehr (04:20):
We're not yeah or none, and we're not saying men
don't deserve to be inpositions. We're not man haters
here, or that men aren't oftenreally qualified. This is just
about women reclaiming our powerand believing in ourselves. And
you don't have to have five PhDsand an MD, PhD or whatever the
hell to be qualified to be inthe room. It's really about
(04:41):
believing in your worth and yourvoice. And I think this does
rear up a lot at midlife one,because many of us have been
people pleasers, doubtingourselves, or, as you say,
outside of the arena, for fearof not being perfect, not
starting until we're perfect forso many years. But. Also at
midlife, our identity isshifting. And if we're gonna
(05:04):
take risks, we're gonna beputting ourselves in that arena
and feeling like, all right, amI too old? You know, maybe some
people feel like my looks aren'twhere they once were. Or maybe
some women feel like, oh, allthese other women have been in
the career world forever. Who amI to do this? Who am I to take
on a new role? Yeah, who am I?
So what we want to do withtoday's episode is say all of us
(05:27):
can struggle with this from timeto time, and maybe we can share
a little bit about how this haspopped up in our own life, but
also all of us can overcomethis. There are some steps we're
going to give you guys in thisepisode that will help make this
a thing of the past, because weall deserve to do absolutely
anything we want, and we're goodenough by virtue of breathing,
Laura Bowman (05:51):
you know. And I that's one of the things that I
think all of this, likepodcasting and social media
stuff, has sort of blown the lidoff of, is this realization of
like, oh, you really can dowhatever you want. I mean, and
you get to see so many differenttypes of people doing different
types of things. So it begins topercolate this idea of like, oh,
(06:12):
wait, they're doing it, youknow? And it's giving
permission. I think it's giving,like a collective permission,
like, if you want to take ashot, take a shot.
Colette Fehr (06:21):
I like that way of looking at it, because I think
it can also work conversely,where you see so many examples
that we get into that socialcomparison theory trap, which is
that we're kind of wired tocompare ourselves to others and
focus on our deficiencies. Soyou see somebody looking
flawless with their filters onin a leadership position, and
(06:44):
you read people's bios. I mean,even if I read my own bio, I'm
like, Who's that, right? Like, Isound way better. I'm like,
That's not me. You read otherpeople's bios, or you see what
you're doing, and you feel lessthan and I think it can also
shut you down.
Laura Bowman (06:59):
Oh, it, for sure can. But I think there's enough.
I think everybody has poppedonline and seen somebody and
they're like, what,
Colette Fehr (07:05):
yeah,
Laura Bowman (07:06):
you're doing it. I think I can do it. And, I mean,
in my own life, I think I'vejust my version of this has been
a lot of time outside the arenagoing, I'll go in when, you
know, I have a lot I had whenwhat like? When you tell
yourself, when I have enoughcredentials, when I've had
enough education, when I've doneenough training,
Colette Fehr (07:32):
letters behind my name,
Laura Bowman (07:33):
you will never get enough training. And you'll go
to these trainings, and you'lljust find people who have done
more training. I'm like, trainedto death, right? Like, and you
go there and you're like, Oh myGod. I don't even know if I
belong at the training, becauseeverybody's done so much
training. So it never ends.
There's no end point to this. SoI spent a lot of time, like,
(07:53):
I'll go in when I have enough. Ithink even before that, like, I
grew up, I guess, with, like, alot of advantages and a lot of I
guess I, you know, inheritedwealth for a lack of better way
to put it, and that shut medown, whereas that might boost
some people up. I was like, whoam I to? Like, go for this.
(08:15):
Like, am I try? Like, I'm noteven I don't know where that
narrative came from, but it mademe feel like I shouldn't be,
that I shouldn't even be goingfor this, like that's so like
Colette Fehr (08:31):
wealth, what about being given advantages made you
feel like you shouldn't go forit,
Laura Bowman (08:37):
like other people need it more than I do. I should
just really like, I should justreally be grateful for what I
have and occupy my role and likeand then, and also, I think it
just was also another thing oflike, what, yeah, like, maybe
like, this is, am I even meantfor that like, and isn't that so
(08:58):
I'm asking for too much if I gofor that. And also, I think it
became a convenient excusepattern for like, I don't need
to, so I'm just gonna sit hereand I'll just do and then I felt
like a dilettante. And then thatfelt terrible. So it was like I
was bouncing between, I needmore. I'm not enough. Do I even
(09:20):
deserve to so it was like mefighting me outside the arena.
Colette Fehr (09:24):
Yeah, and, you know, you bring up a great
point, because even though thestory, in your case, might have
particular narrative pointsaround inherited wealth, the
real heart of it, underneath it,is this self doubt that allows
you to generate narrativeexcuses. Narrative excuses, yes,
(09:46):
and I think what I want toemphasize to people is that when
it's your narrative, it feels sotrue, because I grew up really
motivated and excited to have acareer and do things. 90s, and
all through college, I wanted tobe in the magazine business, and
I wanted to be a writer, and Idid these internships, and I got
(10:08):
great internships, and I wassuper into it. I didn't really
care how much money I made. Iwanted to do something that I
where I felt fulfilled, and Ihad a lot of energy around going
for it and putting myself outthere. But then whenever I'd get
a job, I would very quickly feellike, oh my gosh, I'm like, so
lucky to be here, and how did Iget this job? And oh my gosh, I
(10:31):
can't believe it. And I have toprove myself and prove myself
and overly prove myself. Andthen, of course, my career ended
only a few years in, and Ibecame like a board rich
housewife, I mean, a stay athome mom. And I'm not trying to
devalue that job, but it wasn'treally right for me, personally,
not to have some kind of careerand intellectual stimulation.
(10:54):
And I learned that the hard way.
And so I was then at war withmyself, because I had no push
factor to go do anything.
There's things I could havedone. I could have pushed I
don't want to blame anyone else.
I made that choice, but I thenstarted to feel like, well, what
would I do? Or I couldn'tjustify the amount of money I
would make to Yes, so that'syeah,
Laura Bowman (11:20):
start
Colette Fehr (11:20):
right, and I couldn't figure out what it
would be. And of course, thelandscape has changed a lot. But
for me, once, I had all thoseyears out of the workplace when
I got divorced and I had nomoney and I had to start a
career from strat from scratch,because working a couple years
right out of college, at thatpoint, eight years out of the
workforce, I was sort ofunhireable. You know, my first
(11:44):
job was in I took as an Englishteacher for 11th and 12th grade
at a huge public school herewhere I operated more like a
prison warden than a teacher. Itwas actually like that. Yeah, it
was really intense. I got paid$25,000 a year to teach 11th and
12th grade English at a largepublic school
Laura Bowman (12:04):
here in Florida.
We haven't talked enough aboutthat phase.
Colette Fehr (12:07):
Oh God, it was, it's it was grim. And I was 31
so the students were reallyinappropriate with me. I had 160
students. I didn't have, youknow, the IB or AP classes. It
was wild. It was a greatexperience, but I didn't feel
qualified for anything inparticular, and yet, I did have
(12:29):
skills, I did have an education,I did have talent. Sure, I
needed to be back in theworkforce. But I think my when I
look back, my feeling aboutmyself, even though there were
some real obstacles that it tooka little while to overcome, was
not really the reality of what Ihad to offer in terms of talent,
(12:52):
intelligence, capability. I waswell educated even before I went
back to grad school, so I sortof succeeded a bit despite
myself, and I think that's thehard part, is that there are so
many women even at the top, andeven Oprah Winfrey has said, I
have it too. Like, you see methis multi gazillionaire, but
(13:15):
like, we're all it's what'sgoing on in the mind.
Laura Bowman (13:18):
And I want to say is, like, it's the people that
are at the top that feel thissometimes the worst most. Yeah,
yeah. It's most acute in thoselike, high powered roles,
especially where women areworking around mostly men,
there's a gender factor of like,I'm the only woman, or I'm one
of a few women in the room, andam I being underestimated. Are
(13:41):
people unhappy that I'm here?
Yeah. So there's that wholelayer too,
Colette Fehr (13:47):
yeah. And, you know, becoming therapist. I
remember when I first, and I'veshared this story with a lot of
people, when I first became atherapist, you know, I was in
grad school, we went through thesame program. It took me four
years because my kids were youngand I was a single mom. It
should have been a three yearprogram. It was gruelingly
intense, right? So much work.
It's so experiential. I got adual license. You know, you sit
(14:09):
for these exams. It'sridiculously difficult to become
a therapist. I think. I gotcertified in the EMDR, certified
in Emotionally Focused couplestherapy, which are like
additional graduate programs.
Yeah, I had all these lettersbehind my name, and I remember
when I started my practicecoming home and crying and being
(14:31):
like, I can't believe people arecoming to me. I don't feel like
I know what to do. I don't knowif I'm helping them, and I was
just so St. Part of it wasconscientiousness of wanting to
do a good job and being new, butI really struggled. And, you
know, other people just kind ofgo in and they don't really
(14:52):
care. They feel like, Alright,whatever, however I show up is
good enough. So I think some ofthis tends to connect to a
little bit. Of anxiousness,conscientiousness, neuroticism,
neuroticism. That was my nextone. Exactly, exactly.
Laura Bowman (15:08):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think where you grow up,
too, I've talked a lot about onthe podcast, but I had a very My
mother was a performer when shewas little, and she had a
performance lens for us, like,she was like, kind of a child
prodigy. So she was looking ather children going, like, what
are you so good at? And it was avery it ended up being a very
(15:30):
critical lens for me, where Irealized that if I wasn't the
best at something, I was kind ofdisappointing her. And it made
me not want to play. It made mebe like, if I'm not going to be
like, super good at this, Idon't want to play. And I stayed
very tight to the things that Ithought I was good at. And it
(15:51):
just it showed up for me laterin life, where it was like, if I
wasn't certain I was good, Iwasn't sure I was really willing
to do the things that it took toget good, and that's been a
major shift. Is that me too,that shift from like I've come
fully baked, I am just so goodat this thing. I'm such a
(16:11):
natural to I'm willing to growin something. And honestly, I'll
tell you what it was. It was allthree of my kids have learning
issues. It was watching my kidslearn how to learn that, like,
flipped a complete switch in me,and I was like, Oh my God. I was
(16:33):
like, they have overcome stuffand become like. Some of them
have become, like, quiteexceptional at what they do. But
it was like they clawed theirway there, they grew their way
there.
Colette Fehr (16:45):
And that's the grit. We know. Grit is what it
takes to succeed. You know, it'sso fascinating because I didn't
have that message for my parentsand I had the same thing you
did. The message for my parentsis like, you're great at
everything, like I suck atsports, and my dad would be
like, You did a great job. Like,you almost hit the baseball and,
like, I have no hand eyecoordination. So I was so
(17:08):
encouraged. Like, even if I wasat a D level, my parents were
like, Yay, Colette, she scoopedin the toilet. Yes, like,
everything I did was great. Ifelt very supported and really
not criticized, but I think Iabsorbed it from the environment
around me, that there was somuch wherever I got it from.
(17:30):
There was so much seemingperfection around me. And I got
the idea too, that unless youare stellar, you don't don't
play baseball, right? Don'tembarrass yourself. Do the
things you're good at, and thisis what kept me from writing for
20 years. You know that, inpart, and my life falling apart
because I was in grad school forwriting at the time, I got
(17:52):
divorced, and I had to drop outwhen I got divorced, so I was
trying to take action, you know?
Because what you're talkingabout, the grit that you see in
your kids. Confidence isn't theabsence of insecurity or self
doubt. It's taking action in theface of insecurity and self
doubt. That's how you build yourconfidence. And I think what
we've both learned that we'resharing with you guys is that
(18:12):
most people, not all of us, areinner Olympians, or have you
know, I don't have some oh mygosh, blinding light talent in
something. And I always wished Iremember when I said to you, I
have no talents at all, becauseI thought unless I was like an
opera singer or or something,that I could just be like, This
(18:33):
is my thing, and I'm at thislevel that I shouldn't do any of
it. And I think what we've bothlearned that we want to share
with you all is just go do thething, be a hot mess, don't have
a credential, don't care, dothings that put you in the
arena. Some of them aren't goingto work out, and in part,
because you're going to discoveryou don't really want to do
(18:55):
them, you're probably going tohave a little bit of imposter
syndrome. If you're stretchingand growing, it's it's normal,
Laura Bowman (19:06):
totally. And, you know, the other thing that
occurs to me is that the peoplewho I think feel imposter
syndrome the most are the peoplethat are like most uncomfortable
with their own vulnerability.
They're what they there's that Iheard somebody say this morning,
and I wrote
Colette Fehr (19:21):
it. I don't know Laura, that I'm so different
from that, and I feel like I'vestruggled with this, and I'm so
comfortable,
Laura Bowman (19:27):
but you struggle, but you struggle openly, and you
tend to, like, get through it,yeah, like, I mean, I feel like
you struggle openly. That's oneof the things that's helped me,
is watch you just be so realabout it. I think it's the
people that go, I'm struggling.
But it says perfectionism isfear and stilettos. That's a Liz
Gilbert quote. I love that. AndI think the more you're trying
(19:49):
to, like, armor up and beinglike, I'm so good, I'm fine.
Yeah, your experience is even
Colette Fehr (19:57):
worse. Well, and this is one of our. Top Tips,
right? That we came up withthese tools is to name it to
your point. I do talk about andsometimes you can some, maybe
some people will judge you. Idon't know. I don't care. I feel
like I am open about it thewhole first year of my book
contract. I mean, I'll see somepeople and they're like,
(20:18):
remember how much you werefalling apart at the beginning.
It's like, a little bitannoying, like, try walking in
my shoes for a minute. You know,out of nowhere, I get this huge
six figure book deal with thebiggest publisher in the world.
After years of being like, I'mnot a good enough writer, it was
super overwhelming, and I had toshut down my business not make
(20:40):
any money. I didn't know what Iwas doing. Nobody was explaining
things to me. I mean, I think itwas pretty normal to have
imposter syndrome, but I didreally get through it because I
was open about it. I was like,You're right, I'm freaked out. I
don't know what I'm doing. I wascrying every day. I almost
couldn't even be excited atfirst, because I was so afraid
(21:02):
that I wasn't going to be ableto deliver here. These people
had said, your book is goodenough to be published. We're
going to pay you even though youhave no platform. And I was
like, Yes, I'm going for it. I'mgoing for it. And the minute I
got it, there was an oh shitmoment. Now what now? How am I
going to deliver? And what ifthey all discover that I'm
(21:25):
really not that good of awriter, or my books not good
enough? Or what if my peers inthe field judge me? They don't
agree? I mean, all thosethoughts popped up, but I got
you
Laura Bowman (21:36):
engaged. You stayed engaged in the fear. And
I guess I'm suggesting is worse.
You talked about it. The onlyworst version of that is the
person who's feeling all of thatand trying to still right wobble
around in their stilettos. Iagree. Yeah, that's then they
come to therapy and they'relike, I'm a mess, but I can't
even let anybody know I'm amess,
Colette Fehr (21:58):
right? And that's where perfectionism can couple
up with imposter syndrome andreally shut you down. Then
you're in your stilettos andyou're kind of trapped in your
stilettos, in the air.
Laura Bowman (22:13):
You've got a nasty blister in your stilettos, but
she can't take them off.
Colette Fehr (22:18):
So I think what we're saying here is one of the
keys to overcoming this is Getreal. Be in dialog, open up to
your friends or a friend or atherapist, at least one safe
person, because you're going todiscover most likely that other
women in your life, some of whomyou may look at and think, oh,
they don't feel this way. Ifyou're vulnerable first, that
(22:40):
tends to invite vulnerability.
And you'll find that people youknow, who seem like they don't
have imposter syndrome do, andit can be so bonding and
healing, just to get it outloud, yeah.
Laura Bowman (22:52):
And then there's another thing that I was when I
was researching impostersyndrome, it's the attribution
bias. Were you getting this?
Like, where people, even, whenthey when they do something,
well, they can't take credit forit, yeah. But when they do make
a mistake, they that'sdisproportionate over identify,
yeah. So it's that, it's like,can you take your your wins? Can
(23:13):
you celebrate yourself? Youknow, when even it's just these
micro wins. Can you just bepresent with those?
Colette Fehr (23:24):
And I think we have to force ourselves to look
at those wins. Write them down,keep track of all the things
you've done, right, even things.
It doesn't have to be career,you know? It can be you
redecorated a room like anythingyou've done. You were a good
listening ear for a friend. Youhelped your kid fill out an
apple. I mean, it could beanything and everything, but
(23:46):
we're we're so multi faceted andmulti talented, and we're so
wired for negativity, just as ahuman species, that I think we
have to be more intentional inlisting out and focusing on what
we've done.
Laura Bowman (24:04):
Well, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, and
there's Alex hermosi, who's likea business guy, always says that
the only way you're going tofeel good is if you build a
stack of irrefutable evidence,which sounds very harsh, right?
But he's right to some extent,and I am always like somebody
who loves a little bit ofevidence, but I think what we're
(24:26):
saying is get on the field andplay, even if you have to be in
that learning, growing phase fora long while. That's the only
way you get to build a stack ofirrefutable evidence, right?
Colette Fehr (24:41):
Yeah, yeah. And the only way you build your
confidence and you start toreally quash imposter syndrome,
I think, is getting in thearena, taking risks, yes,
getting more comfortable withfailure and learning that you
don't have to be the mosttalented. You don't have to be
the smartest. You don't have tohave the degrees. You really
(25:01):
don't. You have to be willing towilling. That's a mess. Yeah,
and that's what I remember.
That's a big part of my TEDxtalk. Obviously, in that I'm
talking about the relationshipcontext, speaking up. But it's
the same thing, feel the fear asSusan Jeffrey is my favorite
psychology book from 30 yearsago, feel the fear and do it
anyway. That's how we get out ofthis. If 75% of us are
(25:24):
struggling with impostersyndrome, there's something to
this that's just foundational tothe human experience and how
society has treated women, butwe can help each other out of
it. And I think another greattip is the work of Kristen Neff,
and I think we're going to do anepisode on this, eventually too
self compassion, but reallychanging the way you talk to
(25:49):
yourself, first, normalizingthat self doubt, insecurity,
fear, feeling like a fraud. Tosome degree, this is just so
normal, so allow it to be there.
But then how do you talk back toit? Do you talk back to yourself
and say, I got to get in mystilettos and hide this because
(26:10):
this is shameful. Or suck it up,Laura, get your shit together
and get out there and prove topeople that they should have
hired you. Or do you say this isa moment of suffering. Other
women in the world arestruggling with imposter
syndrome right now too. Let mebe connected to those people and
know my feelings are normal andthat I can do this. Yeah, gentle
(26:34):
and tender.
Laura Bowman (26:35):
I love that gentleness is always the way to
go. And finally, I think if youneed to reboot your mindset,
because I've had to reboot mineseveral times throughout the
years. Read Carol Dweck growthmindset book. I just think, get
out of that fixed mindset thateither you're good or you're not
right, and get into like,falling in love with the
(26:57):
process. It's the only way, it'sthe only way. It's the only way
to have joy. Because this canthe grit component, but also the
like, every day there's like,you're kind of doing the thing,
Colette Fehr (27:12):
yes, and I'm looking up right now as you're
talking, I want to recommendwhen I got my book contract and
I realized I hadn't felt I'mtrying to find it while we're on
the pod here, I have two books Iwant to recommend. If I don't
find it quickly, I'll just putit we'll put it in the show
notes. But I realized I hadn'tfelt imposter syndrome in a
(27:33):
while, and suddenly I wasfeeling it again. And so of
course, I decided to like readwhatever I could to help me
overcome and it actually didreally help. I think in part,
these books helped because Ijust felt so connected to the
fact that so many other peopleare going through the same
thing, and that it's okay. Thatis so comforting, that
(27:56):
universality. And I also want tosay that a lot of times, if
you're feeling impostersyndrome, it means you're taking
a risk, you're putting yourselfinto a new experience, you are
stepping in the arena, and thatis such a win. If you're not
growing, you're probably goingto feel perfectly content,
(28:19):
right? But that voice that says,Oh no, you don't know what
you're doing, or you're notready, or I'll do that when
that's just trying to protectyou from this uncomfortable soup
of emotions that you can totallyget through with willingness,
Laura Bowman (28:35):
yes, and I completely agree. I would rather
feel any feeling Other thanthat, like stew of on we and
I'll do it when. And I don'tknow if I'm that of standing
outside of the arena, likefretting and or or doing
nothing, hunting and going, I'lldo it when. I'll do it later, or
(28:56):
I'll do it after. I get thisthing. I don't ever want to feel
that. I'd rather be a mess inthe arena.
Colette Fehr (29:04):
I agree, and I found the books, okay, good. All
right, the imposter cure andthen the other one. Thanks for
the feedback, the science andart of receiving feedback. Well,
by Douglas stone and Sheila hen,they helped me so much just to
read the normalcy and understandit and know that it meant I'm in
(29:28):
the arena. Yep. So whatever itis you want to do, get in the
arena and know that if someimposter syndrome pops up for
you, especially at midlife, it'sreally normal. As we're taking
new risks. Our identities areshifting, and some of us may
have been feeling certaininsecurities that we haven't
challenged because we've beenhiding and narrating ourselves
(29:51):
away from them, and now is thetime to step into those things
and know you don't have to beperfect. You just have to be
willing to do it. And you havethe grit to persevere, yeah?
Laura Bowman (30:02):
And I think I watched clients. I watched one
client, who's a little younger,get a job that was probably a
little outside of her zone oftolerance. It was a big job. It
was a great job for her, and shehas had to take the last two
years to grow into that job,yeah, but that's the coolest
thing in that that's whenimposter syndrome will show up
(30:23):
the most is when you're a littleyou're in a big arena, when you
get a six figure book deal, whenyou get a job that you like,
you're not sure, like, why'dthey hire me, right? But how
cool you get to grow into
Colette Fehr (30:36):
that? And you're right. I did grow into it. Now
it just feels normal to me?
Yeah, I feel like I do deserveto be here. I feel like I wrote
a great book. I feel like Ideserved my contract. But I
didn't start out that way. I hada lot of fretting, a lot of
anxiety, a lot of panic, and alot of fears hijacking my mind
with worst case scenarios amongthem, the fear that I was going
(31:00):
to humiliate myself in front ofthe world because I would be
discovered to be insufficient.
And, you know, I'm not the onlyone who's felt that way, but by
staying in the arena, I got tothe other side.
Laura Bowman (31:14):
Yeah, and I it's funny, I was thinking just
pinging as we're talking aboutit, and I know we're going to
land the plane early today, butI do a lot of this work with
young people. Like I have a lotof people that are training to
be lawyers and that I work with,and so it's like a lot of
building ego strength. You know,it's these gifted kids that are
(31:35):
now going to get their asskicked on like a cur a class
curve or and I do this withyoung people all the time, but I
think it applies just as much tous. Is like, I'm always talking
to my young people aboutbuilding ego strength, and I
want to talk to women our ageabout, you're always working on
building that ego strength andthat ego flexibility, yeah, and
(32:00):
that's the coolest thing
Colette Fehr (32:01):
it is. And I think sometimes it because I feel like
I have ego strength. So I thinksometimes it's a lack of ego
strength, and sometimes, atleast for me, it was really more
neuroticism and anxiety, becauseI do feel, I don't feel like,
really truly in my core, I don'tfeel like I feel not good
enough. I think it's it'sgetting into that place of
(32:24):
visibility that gave metremendous anxiety, or gave a
part of me tremendous anxiety,yeah, feeling like the spotlight
effect, feeling like all eyesare are on you, when really
nobody gives a shit. Go getmuddy and play in the sandbox.
Nobody's watching as much as youthink. Yeah, you know, that's
(32:44):
another thing with impostersyndrome. I'm on social media,
whoring myself out every day onthese videos. I don't even give
it two thoughts anymore. Ireally think in the beginning, I
felt so self conscious, I feltso awkward. I felt like everyone
was watching. You know, evenwhat you said to me yesterday,
Oh, are we annoying people? Idon't even think about that
(33:04):
anymore. I don't care if I'mannoying people. Don't watch me.
I just I got through it at thebeginning, it felt painfully
self conscious, and I felt likeeverybody was going, why is this
woman on here again? Who doesshe think she is? She must be a
narcissist. That's what Ithought. I feared everyone would
think of me. Now I'm like, Look,I'm doing this is the way it
(33:27):
goes these days. This is whatyou have to be and do if you
want to promote yourself, sellbooks, sell courses. You know,
it's just
Laura Bowman (33:36):
the way it works.
So you can't get anywhere ifyou're not willing to be cringe,
right? Like cringe is the costof admission,
Colette Fehr (33:43):
okay, but I don't feel cringe at all, okay, but
that's what a lot of people doinitially raise I did at the
beginning, yeah, but that's mypoint. Is that it doesn't
whatever. The thing is, it's notgonna feel cringe. It's not
gonna eventually you're gonnafeel like you deserve your seat,
so don't let it turn you awayjust because it feels bad or you
(34:06):
have imposter syndrome. And Ithink that's what so many women
are doing, right? They're outthere killing it, going after
their dreams, but inside, we allfeel a little is today, the day
I get
Laura Bowman (34:19):
found out, and so talk to somebody like, talk to
steal, like, don't, don't, staystuck in your stilettos. Like,
talk to somebody about it andexpress
Colette Fehr (34:30):
it, whether it's a good friend that you feel
comfortable with, a familymember, a therapist, find at
least one person that you cansay, I'm really struggling with
this. Because also, if you hearfrom somebody how they see you,
you know that can be reallyaffirming, too. Yeah, oh, for
sure, for sure, right? We seeeach other's strengths and can
(34:51):
validate them more easily thanwe can.
Laura Bowman (34:53):
This is why we do groups, right? This is why women
in groups are so powerful,because we can. I wrote about
this on. Social media thisweekend is we can see the
strengths in other people morequickly than we can see them in
ourselves.
Colette Fehr (35:07):
This is why we have our midlife master class.
Yeah, part of it is over themagic of that imposter syndrome
and working in the groupmodality. Okay, this is so good
to revisit and so important forus to be talking about. So
thanks for listening, you guys.
We'll link these books in theshow notes for you, the one
Laura mentioned, the ones Imentioned, and check out our
(35:29):
website, insights from thecouch.org, where we have lots of
resources for you. We have ourseven skills to master midlife.
That'll get you started onwhatever journey you're on. And
come join our online community,the chat you can find that on
our website too, insights fromthe couch.org. We want to hear
(35:49):
from you know, your questions,your thoughts, so reach out to
us and we will see you nexttime.
Unknown (35:57):
Bye, guys. You.
Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where
real conversations meet real
Laura Bowman (00:07):
life. At midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two
therapists and best friends,walking through the journey
right alongside you, whetheryou're feeling stuck, restless
or just unsure of what's next.
This is a space for honestconversations, messy truths and
meaningful change.
Colette Fehr (00:26):
And our midlife master class is now open. If
you're looking to level up, getinto action and make midlife the
best season yet. Go to insightsfrom the couch.org and join our
wait list. Now let's dive in.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. We're so glad you're
here listening today as we'regoing to talk about imposter
syndrome and overcoming it atmidlife. This is something we
(00:49):
women are so saddled with, andmen never seem to struggle with,
so unfair. But we're going todefine it. We're going to talk
about why it pops up even morenow than ever, and how you can
get it out of your life for God,let's dive in. Laura, what do
you think this is such animportant topic?
Laura Bowman (01:10):
It is an important topic. And I, I have so many
clients that report this like,this is something that people,
like women, literally come totherapy about, or it comes up in
therapy all the time. And Iguess for me, I was thinking
about it because I knew we'regoing to talk about it. And I
sort of break it into two, likelarge, like, roughly, large
(01:31):
camps. And I feel like it's thewomen that are trapped outside
the arena. Like, if you go backto Brene Brown's quote, where
she said at the end of hersecond TED talk, I was gonna go
in the arena when I was perfect,when I was bulletproof. But that
day never comes. So it's likethese women that are like, I'll
(01:51):
go in when, you know, I'll butthere's they're in their head
constantly about, like theydon't have the credential, or
they never went to school forthat, or who are they to want
the thing? So they're outsidethe arena, and then they're the
women that get inside the arena,and then they're saddled with a
whole other like it never ends,because now it's like, I'm not
(02:14):
as good as am I? Am I goodenough? Should I be here? Is
somebody going to tap me on theshoulder and ask me to leave.
Yeah, I mean, so I see it aslike, it just doesn't. It
doesn't seem to get better,whether you're on the outside or
the inside. It's something thatcan it's a mindset and a way of
being that can hold, carry you
Colette Fehr (02:34):
through. Yes, and it can be overcome. So first of
all, I feel like I have tomention that some estimates show
as much as 75% of executivewomen who are super educated and
qualified suffer from impostersyndrome. And let me just define
it for a second. Impostersyndrome specifically is
doubting your abilities, feelinglike you're not good enough,
(02:58):
feeling like what many womenreport psychologically, you're
about to be discovered any daynow. People are going to realize
that you don't belong there.
You're not really good enough.
You're going to be outed, you'regoing to be humiliated, and
you're going to be cast out. Andthis is not commensurate with
the actual level of experience.
So it's this sense that peoplehave overestimated you, that
(03:20):
you've somehow ended up in thisposition by luck. Men, on the
other hand, tend to feel, evenif they have no qualifications,
you know, they sit with theirlegs spread, they take up space.
They're like, I'm here. I knowmy shit. I have the most
important voice in the room. Wehave five PhDs, like an MD, PhD,
and we're like, I don't know ifI should say something, because
(03:44):
someone else might thinkdifferently. It's I'm
exaggerating, but only slightly.
I mean, whatever
Laura Bowman (03:52):
your political leanings, this just comes to
mind of like Donald Trump andHillary Clinton. You know here
Hillary Clinton is, like, herwhole life is one calculated,
intentional step after another,and like, Donald Trump's like,
I'm here. I've got
Colette Fehr (04:09):
ideas. Show guy, I'm qualified to be president,
which is such
Laura Bowman (04:14):
the way it is, because men will have literally
one qualification or half aqualification, and they throw
another hat in the ring.
Colette Fehr (04:20):
We're not yeah or none, and we're not saying men
don't deserve to be inpositions. We're not man haters
here, or that men aren't oftenreally qualified. This is just
about women reclaiming our powerand believing in ourselves. And
you don't have to have five PhDsand an MD, PhD or whatever the
hell to be qualified to be inthe room. It's really about
(04:41):
believing in your worth and yourvoice. And I think this does
rear up a lot at midlife one,because many of us have been
people pleasers, doubtingourselves, or, as you say,
outside of the arena, for fearof not being perfect, not
starting until we're perfect forso many years. But. Also at
midlife, our identity isshifting. And if we're gonna
(05:04):
take risks, we're gonna beputting ourselves in that arena
and feeling like, all right, amI too old? You know, maybe some
people feel like my looks aren'twhere they once were. Or maybe
some women feel like, oh, allthese other women have been in
the career world forever. Who amI to do this? Who am I to take
on a new role? Yeah, who am I?
So what we want to do withtoday's episode is say all of us
(05:27):
can struggle with this from timeto time, and maybe we can share
a little bit about how this haspopped up in our own life, but
also all of us can overcomethis. There are some steps we're
going to give you guys in thisepisode that will help make this
a thing of the past, because weall deserve to do absolutely
anything we want, and we're goodenough by virtue of breathing,
Laura Bowman (05:51):
you know. And I that's one of the things that I
think all of this, likepodcasting and social media
stuff, has sort of blown the lidoff of, is this realization of
like, oh, you really can dowhatever you want. I mean, and
you get to see so many differenttypes of people doing different
types of things. So it begins topercolate this idea of like, oh,
(06:12):
wait, they're doing it, youknow? And it's giving
permission. I think it's giving,like a collective permission,
like, if you want to take ashot, take a shot.
Colette Fehr (06:21):
I like that way of looking at it, because I think
it can also work conversely,where you see so many examples
that we get into that socialcomparison theory trap, which is
that we're kind of wired tocompare ourselves to others and
focus on our deficiencies. Soyou see somebody looking
flawless with their filters onin a leadership position, and
(06:44):
you read people's bios. I mean,even if I read my own bio, I'm
like, Who's that, right? Like, Isound way better. I'm like,
That's not me. You read otherpeople's bios, or you see what
you're doing, and you feel lessthan and I think it can also
shut you down.
Laura Bowman (06:59):
Oh, it, for sure can. But I think there's enough.
I think everybody has poppedonline and seen somebody and
they're like, what,
Colette Fehr (07:05):
yeah,
Laura Bowman (07:06):
you're doing it. I think I can do it. And, I mean,
in my own life, I think I'vejust my version of this has been
a lot of time outside the arenagoing, I'll go in when, you
know, I have a lot I had whenwhat like? When you tell
yourself, when I have enoughcredentials, when I've had
enough education, when I've doneenough training,
Colette Fehr (07:32):
letters behind my name,
Laura Bowman (07:33):
you will never get enough training. And you'll go
to these trainings, and you'lljust find people who have done
more training. I'm like, trainedto death, right? Like, and you
go there and you're like, Oh myGod. I don't even know if I
belong at the training, becauseeverybody's done so much
training. So it never ends.
There's no end point to this. SoI spent a lot of time, like,
(07:53):
I'll go in when I have enough. Ithink even before that, like, I
grew up, I guess, with, like, alot of advantages and a lot of I
guess I, you know, inheritedwealth for a lack of better way
to put it, and that shut medown, whereas that might boost
some people up. I was like, whoam I to? Like, go for this.
(08:15):
Like, am I try? Like, I'm noteven I don't know where that
narrative came from, but it mademe feel like I shouldn't be,
that I shouldn't even be goingfor this, like that's so like
Colette Fehr (08:31):
wealth, what about being given advantages made you
feel like you shouldn't go forit,
Laura Bowman (08:37):
like other people need it more than I do. I should
just really like, I should justreally be grateful for what I
have and occupy my role and likeand then, and also, I think it
just was also another thing oflike, what, yeah, like, maybe
like, this is, am I even meantfor that like, and isn't that so
(08:58):
I'm asking for too much if I gofor that. And also, I think it
became a convenient excusepattern for like, I don't need
to, so I'm just gonna sit hereand I'll just do and then I felt
like a dilettante. And then thatfelt terrible. So it was like I
was bouncing between, I needmore. I'm not enough. Do I even
(09:20):
deserve to so it was like mefighting me outside the arena.
Colette Fehr (09:24):
Yeah, and, you know, you bring up a great
point, because even though thestory, in your case, might have
particular narrative pointsaround inherited wealth, the
real heart of it, underneath it,is this self doubt that allows
you to generate narrativeexcuses. Narrative excuses, yes,
(09:46):
and I think what I want toemphasize to people is that when
it's your narrative, it feels sotrue, because I grew up really
motivated and excited to have acareer and do things. 90s, and
all through college, I wanted tobe in the magazine business, and
I wanted to be a writer, and Idid these internships, and I got
(10:08):
great internships, and I wassuper into it. I didn't really
care how much money I made. Iwanted to do something that I
where I felt fulfilled, and Ihad a lot of energy around going
for it and putting myself outthere. But then whenever I'd get
a job, I would very quickly feellike, oh my gosh, I'm like, so
lucky to be here, and how did Iget this job? And oh my gosh, I
(10:31):
can't believe it. And I have toprove myself and prove myself
and overly prove myself. Andthen, of course, my career ended
only a few years in, and Ibecame like a board rich
housewife, I mean, a stay athome mom. And I'm not trying to
devalue that job, but it wasn'treally right for me, personally,
not to have some kind of careerand intellectual stimulation.
(10:54):
And I learned that the hard way.
And so I was then at war withmyself, because I had no push
factor to go do anything.
There's things I could havedone. I could have pushed I
don't want to blame anyone else.
I made that choice, but I thenstarted to feel like, well, what
would I do? Or I couldn'tjustify the amount of money I
would make to Yes, so that'syeah,
Laura Bowman (11:20):
start
Colette Fehr (11:20):
right, and I couldn't figure out what it
would be. And of course, thelandscape has changed a lot. But
for me, once, I had all thoseyears out of the workplace when
I got divorced and I had nomoney and I had to start a
career from strat from scratch,because working a couple years
right out of college, at thatpoint, eight years out of the
workforce, I was sort ofunhireable. You know, my first
(11:44):
job was in I took as an Englishteacher for 11th and 12th grade
at a huge public school herewhere I operated more like a
prison warden than a teacher. Itwas actually like that. Yeah, it
was really intense. I got paid$25,000 a year to teach 11th and
12th grade English at a largepublic school
Laura Bowman (12:04):
here in Florida.
We haven't talked enough aboutthat phase.
Colette Fehr (12:07):
Oh God, it was, it's it was grim. And I was 31
so the students were reallyinappropriate with me. I had 160
students. I didn't have, youknow, the IB or AP classes. It
was wild. It was a greatexperience, but I didn't feel
qualified for anything inparticular, and yet, I did have
(12:29):
skills, I did have an education,I did have talent. Sure, I
needed to be back in theworkforce. But I think my when I
look back, my feeling aboutmyself, even though there were
some real obstacles that it tooka little while to overcome, was
not really the reality of what Ihad to offer in terms of talent,
(12:52):
intelligence, capability. I waswell educated even before I went
back to grad school, so I sortof succeeded a bit despite
myself, and I think that's thehard part, is that there are so
many women even at the top, andeven Oprah Winfrey has said, I
have it too. Like, you see methis multi gazillionaire, but
(13:15):
like, we're all it's what'sgoing on in the mind.
Laura Bowman (13:18):
And I want to say is, like, it's the people that
are at the top that feel thissometimes the worst most. Yeah,
yeah. It's most acute in thoselike, high powered roles,
especially where women areworking around mostly men,
there's a gender factor of like,I'm the only woman, or I'm one
of a few women in the room, andam I being underestimated. Are
(13:41):
people unhappy that I'm here?
Yeah. So there's that wholelayer too,
Colette Fehr (13:47):
yeah. And, you know, becoming therapist. I
remember when I first, and I'veshared this story with a lot of
people, when I first became atherapist, you know, I was in
grad school, we went through thesame program. It took me four
years because my kids were youngand I was a single mom. It
should have been a three yearprogram. It was gruelingly
intense, right? So much work.
It's so experiential. I got adual license. You know, you sit
(14:09):
for these exams. It'sridiculously difficult to become
a therapist. I think. I gotcertified in the EMDR, certified
in Emotionally Focused couplestherapy, which are like
additional graduate programs.
Yeah, I had all these lettersbehind my name, and I remember
when I started my practicecoming home and crying and being
(14:31):
like, I can't believe people arecoming to me. I don't feel like
I know what to do. I don't knowif I'm helping them, and I was
just so St. Part of it wasconscientiousness of wanting to
do a good job and being new, butI really struggled. And, you
know, other people just kind ofgo in and they don't really
(14:52):
care. They feel like, Alright,whatever, however I show up is
good enough. So I think some ofthis tends to connect to a
little bit. Of anxiousness,conscientiousness, neuroticism,
neuroticism. That was my nextone. Exactly, exactly.
Laura Bowman (15:08):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think where you grow up,
too, I've talked a lot about onthe podcast, but I had a very My
mother was a performer when shewas little, and she had a
performance lens for us, like,she was like, kind of a child
prodigy. So she was looking ather children going, like, what
are you so good at? And it was avery it ended up being a very
(15:30):
critical lens for me, where Irealized that if I wasn't the
best at something, I was kind ofdisappointing her. And it made
me not want to play. It made mebe like, if I'm not going to be
like, super good at this, Idon't want to play. And I stayed
very tight to the things that Ithought I was good at. And it
(15:51):
just it showed up for me laterin life, where it was like, if I
wasn't certain I was good, Iwasn't sure I was really willing
to do the things that it took toget good, and that's been a
major shift. Is that me too,that shift from like I've come
fully baked, I am just so goodat this thing. I'm such a
(16:11):
natural to I'm willing to growin something. And honestly, I'll
tell you what it was. It was allthree of my kids have learning
issues. It was watching my kidslearn how to learn that, like,
flipped a complete switch in me,and I was like, Oh my God. I was
(16:33):
like, they have overcome stuffand become like. Some of them
have become, like, quiteexceptional at what they do. But
it was like they clawed theirway there, they grew their way
there.
Colette Fehr (16:45):
And that's the grit. We know. Grit is what it
takes to succeed. You know, it'sso fascinating because I didn't
have that message for my parentsand I had the same thing you
did. The message for my parentsis like, you're great at
everything, like I suck atsports, and my dad would be
like, You did a great job. Like,you almost hit the baseball and,
like, I have no hand eyecoordination. So I was so
(17:08):
encouraged. Like, even if I wasat a D level, my parents were
like, Yay, Colette, she scoopedin the toilet. Yes, like,
everything I did was great. Ifelt very supported and really
not criticized, but I think Iabsorbed it from the environment
around me, that there was somuch wherever I got it from.
(17:30):
There was so much seemingperfection around me. And I got
the idea too, that unless youare stellar, you don't don't
play baseball, right? Don'tembarrass yourself. Do the
things you're good at, and thisis what kept me from writing for
20 years. You know that, inpart, and my life falling apart
because I was in grad school forwriting at the time, I got
(17:52):
divorced, and I had to drop outwhen I got divorced, so I was
trying to take action, you know?
Because what you're talkingabout, the grit that you see in
your kids. Confidence isn't theabsence of insecurity or self
doubt. It's taking action in theface of insecurity and self
doubt. That's how you build yourconfidence. And I think what
we've both learned that we'resharing with you guys is that
(18:12):
most people, not all of us, areinner Olympians, or have you
know, I don't have some oh mygosh, blinding light talent in
something. And I always wished Iremember when I said to you, I
have no talents at all, becauseI thought unless I was like an
opera singer or or something,that I could just be like, This
(18:33):
is my thing, and I'm at thislevel that I shouldn't do any of
it. And I think what we've bothlearned that we want to share
with you all is just go do thething, be a hot mess, don't have
a credential, don't care, dothings that put you in the
arena. Some of them aren't goingto work out, and in part,
because you're going to discoveryou don't really want to do
(18:55):
them, you're probably going tohave a little bit of imposter
syndrome. If you're stretchingand growing, it's it's normal,
Laura Bowman (19:06):
totally. And, you know, the other thing that
occurs to me is that the peoplewho I think feel imposter
syndrome the most are the peoplethat are like most uncomfortable
with their own vulnerability.
They're what they there's that Iheard somebody say this morning,
and I wrote
Colette Fehr (19:21):
it. I don't know Laura, that I'm so different
from that, and I feel like I'vestruggled with this, and I'm so
comfortable,
Laura Bowman (19:27):
but you struggle, but you struggle openly, and you
tend to, like, get through it,yeah, like, I mean, I feel like
you struggle openly. That's oneof the things that's helped me,
is watch you just be so realabout it. I think it's the
people that go, I'm struggling.
But it says perfectionism isfear and stilettos. That's a Liz
Gilbert quote. I love that. AndI think the more you're trying
(19:49):
to, like, armor up and beinglike, I'm so good, I'm fine.
Yeah, your experience is even
Colette Fehr (19:57):
worse. Well, and this is one of our. Top Tips,
right? That we came up withthese tools is to name it to
your point. I do talk about andsometimes you can some, maybe
some people will judge you. Idon't know. I don't care. I feel
like I am open about it thewhole first year of my book
contract. I mean, I'll see somepeople and they're like,
(20:18):
remember how much you werefalling apart at the beginning.
It's like, a little bitannoying, like, try walking in
my shoes for a minute. You know,out of nowhere, I get this huge
six figure book deal with thebiggest publisher in the world.
After years of being like, I'mnot a good enough writer, it was
super overwhelming, and I had toshut down my business not make
(20:40):
any money. I didn't know what Iwas doing. Nobody was explaining
things to me. I mean, I think itwas pretty normal to have
imposter syndrome, but I didreally get through it because I
was open about it. I was like,You're right, I'm freaked out. I
don't know what I'm doing. I wascrying every day. I almost
couldn't even be excited atfirst, because I was so afraid
(21:02):
that I wasn't going to be ableto deliver here. These people
had said, your book is goodenough to be published. We're
going to pay you even though youhave no platform. And I was
like, Yes, I'm going for it. I'mgoing for it. And the minute I
got it, there was an oh shitmoment. Now what now? How am I
going to deliver? And what ifthey all discover that I'm
(21:25):
really not that good of awriter, or my books not good
enough? Or what if my peers inthe field judge me? They don't
agree? I mean, all thosethoughts popped up, but I got
you
Laura Bowman (21:36):
engaged. You stayed engaged in the fear. And
I guess I'm suggesting is worse.
You talked about it. The onlyworst version of that is the
person who's feeling all of thatand trying to still right wobble
around in their stilettos. Iagree. Yeah, that's then they
come to therapy and they'relike, I'm a mess, but I can't
even let anybody know I'm amess,
Colette Fehr (21:58):
right? And that's where perfectionism can couple
up with imposter syndrome andreally shut you down. Then
you're in your stilettos andyou're kind of trapped in your
stilettos, in the air.
Laura Bowman (22:13):
You've got a nasty blister in your stilettos, but
she can't take them off.
Colette Fehr (22:18):
So I think what we're saying here is one of the
keys to overcoming this is Getreal. Be in dialog, open up to
your friends or a friend or atherapist, at least one safe
person, because you're going todiscover most likely that other
women in your life, some of whomyou may look at and think, oh,
they don't feel this way. Ifyou're vulnerable first, that
(22:40):
tends to invite vulnerability.
And you'll find that people youknow, who seem like they don't
have imposter syndrome do, andit can be so bonding and
healing, just to get it outloud, yeah.
Laura Bowman (22:52):
And then there's another thing that I was when I
was researching impostersyndrome, it's the attribution
bias. Were you getting this?
Like, where people, even, whenthey when they do something,
well, they can't take credit forit, yeah. But when they do make
a mistake, they that'sdisproportionate over identify,
yeah. So it's that, it's like,can you take your your wins? Can
(23:13):
you celebrate yourself? Youknow, when even it's just these
micro wins. Can you just bepresent with those?
Colette Fehr (23:24):
And I think we have to force ourselves to look
at those wins. Write them down,keep track of all the things
you've done, right, even things.
It doesn't have to be career,you know? It can be you
redecorated a room like anythingyou've done. You were a good
listening ear for a friend. Youhelped your kid fill out an
apple. I mean, it could beanything and everything, but
(23:46):
we're we're so multi faceted andmulti talented, and we're so
wired for negativity, just as ahuman species, that I think we
have to be more intentional inlisting out and focusing on what
we've done.
Laura Bowman (24:04):
Well, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, and
there's Alex hermosi, who's likea business guy, always says that
the only way you're going tofeel good is if you build a
stack of irrefutable evidence,which sounds very harsh, right?
But he's right to some extent,and I am always like somebody
who loves a little bit ofevidence, but I think what we're
(24:26):
saying is get on the field andplay, even if you have to be in
that learning, growing phase fora long while. That's the only
way you get to build a stack ofirrefutable evidence, right?
Colette Fehr (24:41):
Yeah, yeah. And the only way you build your
confidence and you start toreally quash imposter syndrome,
I think, is getting in thearena, taking risks, yes,
getting more comfortable withfailure and learning that you
don't have to be the mosttalented. You don't have to be
the smartest. You don't have tohave the degrees. You really
(25:01):
don't. You have to be willing towilling. That's a mess. Yeah,
and that's what I remember.
That's a big part of my TEDxtalk. Obviously, in that I'm
talking about the relationshipcontext, speaking up. But it's
the same thing, feel the fear asSusan Jeffrey is my favorite
psychology book from 30 yearsago, feel the fear and do it
anyway. That's how we get out ofthis. If 75% of us are
(25:24):
struggling with impostersyndrome, there's something to
this that's just foundational tothe human experience and how
society has treated women, butwe can help each other out of
it. And I think another greattip is the work of Kristen Neff,
and I think we're going to do anepisode on this, eventually too
self compassion, but reallychanging the way you talk to
(25:49):
yourself, first, normalizingthat self doubt, insecurity,
fear, feeling like a fraud. Tosome degree, this is just so
normal, so allow it to be there.
But then how do you talk back toit? Do you talk back to yourself
and say, I got to get in mystilettos and hide this because
(26:10):
this is shameful. Or suck it up,Laura, get your shit together
and get out there and prove topeople that they should have
hired you. Or do you say this isa moment of suffering. Other
women in the world arestruggling with imposter
syndrome right now too. Let mebe connected to those people and
know my feelings are normal andthat I can do this. Yeah, gentle
(26:34):
and tender.
Laura Bowman (26:35):
I love that gentleness is always the way to
go. And finally, I think if youneed to reboot your mindset,
because I've had to reboot mineseveral times throughout the
years. Read Carol Dweck growthmindset book. I just think, get
out of that fixed mindset thateither you're good or you're not
right, and get into like,falling in love with the
(26:57):
process. It's the only way, it'sthe only way. It's the only way
to have joy. Because this canthe grit component, but also the
like, every day there's like,you're kind of doing the thing,
Colette Fehr (27:12):
yes, and I'm looking up right now as you're
talking, I want to recommendwhen I got my book contract and
I realized I hadn't felt I'mtrying to find it while we're on
the pod here, I have two books Iwant to recommend. If I don't
find it quickly, I'll just putit we'll put it in the show
notes. But I realized I hadn'tfelt imposter syndrome in a
(27:33):
while, and suddenly I wasfeeling it again. And so of
course, I decided to like readwhatever I could to help me
overcome and it actually didreally help. I think in part,
these books helped because Ijust felt so connected to the
fact that so many other peopleare going through the same
thing, and that it's okay. Thatis so comforting, that
(27:56):
universality. And I also want tosay that a lot of times, if
you're feeling impostersyndrome, it means you're taking
a risk, you're putting yourselfinto a new experience, you are
stepping in the arena, and thatis such a win. If you're not
growing, you're probably goingto feel perfectly content,
(28:19):
right? But that voice that says,Oh no, you don't know what
you're doing, or you're notready, or I'll do that when
that's just trying to protectyou from this uncomfortable soup
of emotions that you can totallyget through with willingness,
Laura Bowman (28:35):
yes, and I completely agree. I would rather
feel any feeling Other thanthat, like stew of on we and
I'll do it when. And I don'tknow if I'm that of standing
outside of the arena, likefretting and or or doing
nothing, hunting and going, I'lldo it when. I'll do it later, or
(28:56):
I'll do it after. I get thisthing. I don't ever want to feel
that. I'd rather be a mess inthe arena.
Colette Fehr (29:04):
I agree, and I found the books, okay, good. All
right, the imposter cure andthen the other one. Thanks for
the feedback, the science andart of receiving feedback. Well,
by Douglas stone and Sheila hen,they helped me so much just to
read the normalcy and understandit and know that it meant I'm in
(29:28):
the arena. Yep. So whatever itis you want to do, get in the
arena and know that if someimposter syndrome pops up for
you, especially at midlife, it'sreally normal. As we're taking
new risks. Our identities areshifting, and some of us may
have been feeling certaininsecurities that we haven't
challenged because we've beenhiding and narrating ourselves
(29:51):
away from them, and now is thetime to step into those things
and know you don't have to beperfect. You just have to be
willing to do it. And you havethe grit to persevere, yeah?
Laura Bowman (30:02):
And I think I watched clients. I watched one
client, who's a little younger,get a job that was probably a
little outside of her zone oftolerance. It was a big job. It
was a great job for her, and shehas had to take the last two
years to grow into that job,yeah, but that's the coolest
thing in that that's whenimposter syndrome will show up
(30:23):
the most is when you're a littleyou're in a big arena, when you
get a six figure book deal, whenyou get a job that you like,
you're not sure, like, why'dthey hire me, right? But how
cool you get to grow into
Colette Fehr (30:36):
that? And you're right. I did grow into it. Now
it just feels normal to me?
Yeah, I feel like I do deserveto be here. I feel like I wrote
a great book. I feel like Ideserved my contract. But I
didn't start out that way. I hada lot of fretting, a lot of
anxiety, a lot of panic, and alot of fears hijacking my mind
with worst case scenarios amongthem, the fear that I was going
(31:00):
to humiliate myself in front ofthe world because I would be
discovered to be insufficient.
And, you know, I'm not the onlyone who's felt that way, but by
staying in the arena, I got tothe other side.
Laura Bowman (31:14):
Yeah, and I it's funny, I was thinking just
pinging as we're talking aboutit, and I know we're going to
land the plane early today, butI do a lot of this work with
young people. Like I have a lotof people that are training to
be lawyers and that I work with,and so it's like a lot of
building ego strength. You know,it's these gifted kids that are
(31:35):
now going to get their asskicked on like a cur a class
curve or and I do this withyoung people all the time, but I
think it applies just as much tous. Is like, I'm always talking
to my young people aboutbuilding ego strength, and I
want to talk to women our ageabout, you're always working on
building that ego strength andthat ego flexibility, yeah, and
(32:00):
that's the coolest thing
Colette Fehr (32:01):
it is. And I think sometimes it because I feel like
I have ego strength. So I thinksometimes it's a lack of ego
strength, and sometimes, atleast for me, it was really more
neuroticism and anxiety, becauseI do feel, I don't feel like,
really truly in my core, I don'tfeel like I feel not good
enough. I think it's it'sgetting into that place of
(32:24):
visibility that gave metremendous anxiety, or gave a
part of me tremendous anxiety,yeah, feeling like the spotlight
effect, feeling like all eyesare are on you, when really
nobody gives a shit. Go getmuddy and play in the sandbox.
Nobody's watching as much as youthink. Yeah, you know, that's
(32:44):
another thing with impostersyndrome. I'm on social media,
whoring myself out every day onthese videos. I don't even give
it two thoughts anymore. Ireally think in the beginning, I
felt so self conscious, I feltso awkward. I felt like everyone
was watching. You know, evenwhat you said to me yesterday,
Oh, are we annoying people? Idon't even think about that
(33:04):
anymore. I don't care if I'mannoying people. Don't watch me.
I just I got through it at thebeginning, it felt painfully
self conscious, and I felt likeeverybody was going, why is this
woman on here again? Who doesshe think she is? She must be a
narcissist. That's what Ithought. I feared everyone would
think of me. Now I'm like, Look,I'm doing this is the way it
(33:27):
goes these days. This is whatyou have to be and do if you
want to promote yourself, sellbooks, sell courses. You know,
it's just
Laura Bowman (33:36):
the way it works.
So you can't get anywhere ifyou're not willing to be cringe,
right? Like cringe is the costof admission,
Colette Fehr (33:43):
okay, but I don't feel cringe at all, okay, but
that's what a lot of people doinitially raise I did at the
beginning, yeah, but that's mypoint. Is that it doesn't
whatever. The thing is, it's notgonna feel cringe. It's not
gonna eventually you're gonnafeel like you deserve your seat,
so don't let it turn you awayjust because it feels bad or you
(34:06):
have imposter syndrome. And Ithink that's what so many women
are doing, right? They're outthere killing it, going after
their dreams, but inside, we allfeel a little is today, the day
I get
Laura Bowman (34:19):
found out, and so talk to somebody like, talk to
steal, like, don't, don't, staystuck in your stilettos. Like,
talk to somebody about it andexpress
Colette Fehr (34:30):
it, whether it's a good friend that you feel
comfortable with, a familymember, a therapist, find at
least one person that you cansay, I'm really struggling with
this. Because also, if you hearfrom somebody how they see you,
you know that can be reallyaffirming, too. Yeah, oh, for
sure, for sure, right? We seeeach other's strengths and can
(34:51):
validate them more easily thanwe can.
Laura Bowman (34:53):
This is why we do groups, right? This is why women
in groups are so powerful,because we can. I wrote about
this on. Social media thisweekend is we can see the
strengths in other people morequickly than we can see them in
ourselves.
Colette Fehr (35:07):
This is why we have our midlife master class.
Yeah, part of it is over themagic of that imposter syndrome
and working in the groupmodality. Okay, this is so good
to revisit and so important forus to be talking about. So
thanks for listening, you guys.
We'll link these books in theshow notes for you, the one
Laura mentioned, the ones Imentioned, and check out our
(35:29):
website, insights from thecouch.org, where we have lots of
resources for you. We have ourseven skills to master midlife.
That'll get you started onwhatever journey you're on. And
come join our online community,the chat you can find that on
our website too, insights fromthe couch.org. We want to hear
(35:49):
from you know, your questions,your thoughts, so reach out to
us and we will see you nexttime.
Unknown (35:57):
Bye, guys. You.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.