October 29, 2025 • 43 mins
In this deeply moving episode, we sit down with the brilliant author and military spouse-turned-memoirist, Heather Sweeney. Her new book Camouflage: How I Emerged from the Shadows of a Military Marriage takes us inside the complex emotional terrain of identity loss, divorce, resilience, and ultimately, self-discovery. Heather's story is not just one of heartbreak, but of reclaiming voice, power, and purpose—especially for women navigating life after a long-term partnership.
We talk about everything from the layered reality of military marriage to the quiet courage it takes to start over. Heather shares what it's like to lose yourself inside someone else’s story—and how she found her way back. If you’re feeling stuck, alone, or like your identity has been swallowed by your roles, this episode is your permission slip to rediscover who you are.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] – Introducing Heather Sweeney: Writer, military spouse, and memoirist
[1:35] – From blogging to bylines: Heather’s journey to becoming a published author
[3:42] – Riding the roller coaster of military life and finding connection online
[5:38] – Heather’s national writing credits and how she landed in The New York Times
[8:38] – The invisible load of military marriage and emotional isolation
[10:41] – Losing identity in someone else’s career—and the silent toll it takes
[15:00] – Why divorce was always “in the air” and how it evolved over years
[19:43] – The emotional aftermath of a partner’s divorce request
[23:25] – Financial freedom as the catalyst for leaving
[26:03] – Navigating in-house separation and the complicated new normal
[28:20] – Military custody realities: long-distance parenting and letting go
[31:31] – The bridge from loss to liberation: reclaiming your voice
[33:56] – Building a new relationship from a place of strength and clarity
[36:52] – Advice for women at the edge of leaving: where to begin
[39:34] – Heather’s reflections on rediscovering herself through writing and therapy
[40:13] – Where to find Heather’s book and follow her journey
Links and Resources:
· Order Camouflage: http://posthill.to/B0F316HJTD
· Website: https://www.heatherlsweeney.com/
· Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writersweeney
· Substack: https://heathersweeney.substack.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:03):
Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where
real conversations meet real
Laura Bowman (00:07):
life. At midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two
therapists and best friends,walking through the journey
right alongside you, whetheryou're feeling stuck, restless
or just unsure of what's next.
This is a space for honestconversations, messy truths and
meaningful change.
Colette Fehr (00:26):
And our midlife master class is now open. If
you're looking to level up, getinto action and make midlife the
best season yet. Go to insightsfrom the couch.org and join our
wait list. Now let's dive in.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. I'm so excited to
introduce you guys to a friendof mine, super talented author,
Heather Sweeney, her book thatis just out now, camouflage how
(00:51):
I emerged from the shadows of amilitary marriage is something
you're all going to want to gograb ASAP. Her writing is
beautiful, and this is really astory about identity, recovery,
resilience, reclaiming yourselfthat I already have goose bumps.
(01:11):
I can't wait to dive in, and Iwant Heather to tell you
everything in her own words. SoHeather, welcome. We're so happy
to have you here.
Unknown (01:21):
Thank you so much.
Colette and Laura. I'm thrilledto be here. I love your podcast.
Colette Fehr (01:26):
Thank you. Thank you. So maybe we could just
start by tell us a little bitabout yourself and how this book
came to be,
Unknown (01:35):
sure, sure. Well, I'm Heather Sweeney. I have been a
writer for about 15 years or so,and I've done some freelance
work. I started, actually, Istarted as a blogger. I was a
stay at home mom, and I kind ofneeded something that wasn't
mommy, wife related. And I was amilitary spouse, and my then
(02:00):
husband was about to go ondeployment again, and I thought
I just, I need something for me.
And it was actually my mother inlaw who was like, why don't you
start a blog? And I'm like,Well, I don't know how to blog,
but I did, and just kind offigured it out as I went along,
and that it kind of spiraled andsnowballed, and I ended up
(02:22):
getting a job as a writer, and Istarted freelancing more, and
the way the book came to be,it's funny, I wasn't even
writing this book. I was writinga novel. I was writing fiction,
something completely different,and I had published this
article, and I had gottendivorced, and I published this
article, and it was called TheFive marriage tips from a
(02:45):
divorced military spouse. Oh andyes, and I had gotten so much
response from it just emailsfrom other military spouses
saying, Nobody talks aboutmilitary divorce. Please write
more. Please write a book. Ithought, Well, okay, I'm not
sure I have enough for a book.
(03:06):
I'll just, I'll go through myown journals. Well, I was just
an avid journaler. I journallike crazy, and I went back
through about 20 years ofjournals. Oh my gosh, thinking
that I might not have enoughmaterial for a book, and then
suddenly I had a very, very longbook that I had to cut 1000s and
(03:27):
1000s of words from. But yeah,so then, you know, it kind of
went from there looking for anagent and a publisher. And here
it
Laura Bowman (03:36):
is, yay. I mean, can you, first of all, I'm
curious, like, what was the blogabout?
Unknown (03:42):
It was called riding the roller coaster, and it was
about just military life, beinga spouse. And, you know, I had
lived in Japan before I movedhere to Virginia, and I so wish
I'd started a blog when we livedin Japan, because how cool was
that we were there for threeyears. My daughter was born in
Japan, and yeah, just I met somany wonderful people that I'm
(04:07):
still friends with throughblogging. It was a lot of just
online connections, and we kindof realized, Oh, wow. Well,
we're going through the samethings. We're all kind of
lonely. Our husbands are gone,and there's some male military
spouses, but mostly women. And Ijust connected and thought, this
is just wonderful that we're allsharing our stories. And I had
(04:29):
no I was like, kind of dealingwith all of this internally and
being resilient like we'resupposed to be. And I have a
hard time with that wordsometimes, because I heard it so
much as a military spouse, beresilient, support your spouse's
career, and, you know, play yourrole as the spouse. And it was
(04:51):
hard sometimes, so it was niceand rotary on the on the
blogging world.
Colette Fehr (04:56):
Heather, You're so modest. I just want to throw
out. To the audience. Heather isa major, known writer whose work
appears. No, it is. And I knowyou're not going to be bragging,
so I'm going to be bragging. Ijust want to set the scene here
that not only are you a talentedwriter, but you're all over the
place, like USA Today. GoodHousekeeping. Can you just name
(05:17):
a couple of places? I mean, I'veread your article that you wrote
on the golden bachelor that wasin the newspaper. I mean, you
write, and these are pieces thatyou write, like when I'm in the
news. It's a quote for me as arelationship expert, but you are
a contributing writer to thebiggest national publication. So
can you just name a place as afew places where people can find
(05:37):
your work?
Unknown (05:38):
Sure, then. And the New York Times, The Washington Post,
Huff Post, News Week, BusinessInsider, I have hundreds of
articles that military.comHealth Line, grown and flown. I
know I'm leaving now,
Colette Fehr (05:56):
but at least people get the idea like, Yeah,
I mean you're, you are a bigtime writer, so to turn all of
that into a memoir, right? Thisis your first memoir, correct?
Unknown (06:09):
It's my first book.
It's my first memoir, yes, yes,and I was gonna say my the way
it all started with myfreelancing was I kind of just
lucked out with a New York Timeseditor, but I ended up
announcing my divorce in the NewYork Times, wow. Wait, tell us
that how? Yes, most people youknow announce their their
(06:30):
weddings.
Colette Fehr (06:32):
Yeah, mine was it.
My wedding was in The New YorkTimes wedding, and I got
divorced a few years later. Thatshould have been in there.
Unknown (06:39):
Yeah. And you know what, I've actually read things
recently. Oh, should peopleannounce their divorces or just
kind of go quietly, you know,into social media with somebody
else? But yes, so I had workedwith this New York Times editor
twice before. He was the magiceditor of the at war section of
(07:01):
New York Times, and it was a lotof veterans and service members
and spouses writing just aboutmilitary life. And I messaged
him one day and I said, Look,I've got this piece. I'm getting
divorced. And actually, my piecethat I wrote before that was
about going to marriagecounseling and how marriage
counseling was going to save mymarriage. You know, spoiler
alert, it didn't but I said,I've got this piece. I'm getting
(07:26):
divorced, but I promised myfuture ex that I was not going
to write about the divorce untilthe year long separation was
over and the divorce wasfinalized. And he's like, great.
Send me a draft and we'll sit onit. Just let me know when you
want me to post it. I'm like,fantastic. So court date rolls
around, I'm fully divorced. Ihave reverted back to my maiden
(07:49):
name. I'm leaving the courtroomwith my best friend and doo doo
doo. I send out an email, andabout two hours later, my
divorce was announced in the NewYork Times.
Wow,
Colette Fehr (08:02):
yeah, very cool, that that needs to become a
thing, yeah, yeah.
Laura Bowman (08:06):
Like, proudly,
Unknown (08:08):
I was very lucky. You know, a lot of editors, they
want to post something when theywant to post it, and he's like,
No, I'll wait. I'm good. Like,great. So cool, yeah, so I
Laura Bowman (08:19):
just want to go back. I love your bio. That's
amazing. I'm glad our listenersget to know, like, what a true
writer you are. But I'm justcurious about because I don't
know, and I'm guessing, likesome of our listeners don't know
either, like, what, what are thecontours of, like, a military
marriage?
Unknown (08:38):
Oh, wow. It's very layered. It's very nuanced. It's
not easy. It's not an easylifestyle, lifestyle. My hat
goes off to every militaryspouse right now. It's a lot of
uncertainty. There aredeployments. There's a lot of
moves, even little trips. Hewould go off for, you know, just
a week or whatever, but it wasalways very last minute and
(09:01):
throwing stuff into a bag, and,you know, forgetting things, and
it's not easy, and, you know,and I wouldn't say that my
divorce. I can't blame themilitary on my divorce. I think
that there are plenty. I've aton of military spouse friends
who, you know, they'll complainabout certain aspects of the
military life, but ultimatelythey're with the right person,
(09:24):
and those hardships are a littlebit easier when you're with
somebody that you can share itwith and talk it over with, and
you know you can commiserate andyou understand each other. I was
going through these hardshipswith the wrong person, and we
were just not on the same page,and I felt very alone, even when
(09:45):
he was home. And there weretimes also, and I started
realizing that things weren'tgoing well when I started
looking forward to him leaving,even when we were in Japan, and
I'm far away from my family. Wehad two little kids at the time
when we were in Japan. Newbornbaby and a four year old, and I
there was one time he left and Ihad the stomach flu. I had to do
(10:08):
Easter by myself. I had the twolittle kids, and the second he
walked out the door, I just kindof exhaled, and I'm like, Oh my
gosh, I'm I'd just rather dealwith this all by myself.
Laura Bowman (10:18):
That's when you know. That's when you know,
Colette Fehr (10:22):
what is it about a military like? Is there anything
that might surprise someoneabout a military marriage, or
the unique challenges you facethat you can think of because I
can't even imagine, you know, Idon't have a frame of reference
for what that's like. As far as
Unknown (10:41):
being a spouse. I don't know what it's like being a
service member. They have awhole separate you know, write a
whole book on the hardships of aservice member, but I think as a
spouse, one thing that I dealtwith, and I saw a lot of other
spouses deal with, and Icompletely lost my identity in
his career, and I was a stay athome mom, and kind of my full
(11:05):
time job was being a spouse,because I had to hold down the
home front while he was gone.
And he was gone a lot, I wouldsay he was gone for more than
half of our marriage. Wow. Andyou know, I'm raising the kids
by myself, and I only had two.
I'm like, I don't even know howpeople with more than to do it.
I just, I couldn't run that. Butyou're not really supposed to
complain about the hardships.
Nobody says that. It's not. It'skind of an unwritten rule. You
(11:28):
there's, there's one thing thata lot of military spouses hear
from their civiliancounterparts, and we all just,
you know, kind of cringe when,here it is. You knew what you
were getting into and I alwayshated that, because first of
all, when I married my husband,he was not in the military yet,
and he joined the military abouta week, two weeks after we got
(11:51):
married, but so I knew it wascoming. But you know, it's
almost like telling a newlypregnant mother who doesn't have
any other children? Oh, well,you knew you asked for this. You
knew what you were getting intobeing a mother as well. You
don't know until you're in it,till you're in the thick of it.
And you even if some people growup as a military brat, and then
(12:12):
they marry into the military,and still, it's a completely
different perspective as aspouse rather than as a child,
and it's just on the jobtraining. And I'm a really good
Packer. I can pack really well.
We moved a lot. In Japan, welived in three different houses.
(12:34):
Even we were in Pensacola,Florida first, and we lived in
two different houses. So yeah,we moved a lot.
Colette Fehr (12:41):
How long were you married? And how old were you
when you got divorced?
Unknown (12:45):
We were married for 13 years, together for 15 and I was
37 I believe 36 or 37 I wasprobably 36 when we separated,
and about 37
Colette Fehr (12:58):
when we divorced.
And how old were your kids atthe time of the divorce?
Unknown (13:02):
They were five and nine. Okay,
Colette Fehr (13:06):
yeah, yes. And so are you, to whatever degree
you're comfortable sharing, whatare some of the I mean, I
appreciate you made thedistinction between even though
there are challenges and specialfactors that are unique to a
military marriage, that it isnot the military that caused
this divorce. That's not thestory. Was not the right person.
(13:26):
We were not right for eachother. And as you both and all
our listeners know, I'm sure bynow, I also got divorced around
the same time. Length ofrelationship, not a military
marriage, when my kids were oneand a half and three and a half?
Yeah, so, and I think there area lot of people out there, we
know, just bringing in therelationship perspective, that
(13:49):
the two biggest times of divorcein people's lives are when the
kids are young, because there'ssuch intense demands that if
there are fractures in therelationship, they tend to be
expressed at that stage, andthen also the emptiness stage,
when people may have for yearsfocused on a kid centric
marriage and grown apart, andthey wake up one day and look at
(14:10):
each other and go, I don't evenknow you, and I don't want to
the newly named Gray Divorce. SoI think there, and I know there
are a lot of listeners outthere. Obviously some are
happily married, some arehappily single, but there are
also a lot of people out theredivorced, a lot of people who
are in marriages that are notfulfilling, that are not
emotionally connected, thatthey're grappling with. Should I
(14:32):
get a divorce? Should I not geta divorce? Maybe they haven't
even talked to anybody about it,because it's still even though
it's so common, it's sostigmatized. So could you share
just a little bit of again,whatever you're comfortable
with, like your thought process,what was pushing on you to
consider divorce? Because it'snot an easy step to take, and
(14:52):
there had to be some pretty bigreasons or compelling factors
that moved you. Oh.
Unknown (15:00):
Boy, we actually talked about divorce for years. I mean,
the word was out, and in ourmarriage, it was in our
atmosphere for many years. Andthe first time he told me he
wanted a divorce, we were inJapan, and my daughter was nine
months old, and I'm like, Well,I don't have a job. We agreed
(15:25):
that I was going to be a stay athome mom, just it's and I had a
master's degree. At the time, Ihad gotten a master's degree. I
finished it up when our son wassix months old, and he was in
Iraq, so I was on my own. He'sin Iraq about a six month old. I
just got my master's degree, andthen four months later,
Colette Fehr (15:42):
really shit, yeah, what's your master's
Laura Bowman (15:45):
in? Yeah, what's the Master's in? I
Unknown (15:47):
I'm all over the place.
My undergraduate degree is inpsychology, and my master's
degree is in elementaryeducation. I was going to be a
teacher. I was a kindergartenteacher for two years before I
became a full time writer. Ilove that. Wow. So part of our
problem at the be, at the getgo, was that, because we were
(16:08):
apart all the time, we kind ofswept our problems under the
rug. And so every time we hadlike, so when he was preparing
to go somewhere, whether it wasa deployment or even like,
sometimes he would go to Europefor six weeks, I mean, or
sometimes it was a week. Butwhen they're preparing to leave,
you have a lot to do. You've gotto just get we always had to
have an updated Power ofAttorney. For me, his will
(16:30):
always had to be updated, youknow, going on deployments to
the Middle East, you know, webasically had to prepare for him
not coming back. Wow. So you'retrying to do the logistics while
also, I have to spend qualitytime with him. I'm not going to
see him for six months. And thenwhile he's gone, you don't want
to fight while he's gone,because you're supposed to miss
him. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(16:56):
Strikes are high, right? And sothen when he comes back, there's
actually a term calledreintegration, which nobody told
me about. When they first comeback from deployment, everybody
has to learn how to livetogether again. So it's called
reintegration. I had to get usedto share, you know, I had a
schedule with my kids, and heinterrupted it when he came
(17:17):
home. But then when he camehome, he's used to, you know,
having his own schedule andeating what he wants, and not
having a toddler tugging on hispant leg. And so it was an
adjust, and that, you know, thekids wouldn't when he came home
from Iraq. Or, you know, weleft, my son was six months old.
When he came back, he my son wasa year old. Well, he didn't know
his dad, who his dad was. Sothere's just this reintegration,
(17:41):
and then, so you don't want touse that time fighting either.
And then the next thing youknow, we're moving to another
country.
Laura Bowman (17:48):
And then there's never time to process.
Unknown (17:50):
There's never time. And there's also, it's not so much
anymore, because we're talkingthis was about 10 years ago,
more than 10 years ago, andthere is such a stigma for
people in the military gettinghelp, because you think of the
military and you kind ofassociate it with strength, both
physical and mental strength.
That's our military. They'restrong. They're fighters. And so
(18:12):
when we really needed thecounseling, we couldn't get it
in Japan. It was a very, verysmall base. We hung out with and
sang karaoke with thecounselors, so maybe they sensed
something, but we couldn't, youknow, we hung out with them, and
then we moved back here, and itwas just he didn't want to go to
(18:34):
counseling, and I understood whyhe didn't want it in his
military record. Now there's amuch less stigma to it. But at
the time, you know, this was2010 2011 and he's just like, we
just can't do it. We saw, weended up seeing three different
counselors, one of which was anemployee of the military, and
she was not for me. She was notadvocating for me. She was
(18:59):
definitely hired to make surethat the service member was
ready to go and didn't care somuch about my mental health,
like
Laura Bowman (19:09):
keep you in your role. Essentially, absolutely,
Unknown (19:12):
absolutely. My role was to be a spouse and to hold down
the the home front and dowhatever I needed to do to make
sure he was good to go on hishis mission.
Colette Fehr (19:24):
Wow. So when you when he says to you the first
time, you know, I might want adivorce, that words first
floated at that point, are youso emotionally disconnected
already that it doesn'tdevastate you? Or are you
floored by this, and like justgut wrenched.
Unknown (19:43):
I was surprised that he verbalized it, but I was kind of
having my own divorce daydreamsmyself and for me. And I do
write about this in the book, myfirst thoughts were not, Oh, my
God. I can't live without thisman. Oh my gosh. What am I going
to do? My first thoughts were,how do I get a job? How do I get
(20:07):
some money? Where am I going tolive? You know, how am I going
to find childcare? How am Igoing to pay for childcare?
Those were my first thoughts.
Colette Fehr (20:15):
And telling, isn't it? It's telling, because that
was, those were my firstthoughts too.
Laura Bowman (20:20):
But thank you for saying that, because I think
that we under report how muchthat like, really factor. I
mean, I think that is such ahuge factor for women, is like,
How safe are they? Can theyreally take care of themselves?
Can they take care of theirkids? And if the answer comes
up, no, you're really stuckthere
Unknown (20:39):
for a while I was I was stuck for years.
Laura Bowman (20:43):
Okay to talk to me about being stuck for years,
Unknown (20:48):
I think after the first time we talked about divorce,
gosh, that was probably in about2008 and we didn't separate
until 2012 So, gosh, yeah, fourmore years
Laura Bowman (21:01):
were you planning the whole time? Like, tell what
was the process behind thescenes for you?
Unknown (21:06):
I wasn't again. It was kind of like when we first
talked about it, we were aboutto move from Japan back to the
states, like all of ourfurniture was already packed up,
like everything we alreadybought a house here in in
Virginia, I'm still in the sameplace where we moved after
Japan, and we just swept itunder the rug again, like we did
(21:27):
for everything else, becausethere were so many things we
were moved to Virginia. We hadto buy a car, we had to get the
kids enrolled in school and lookfor daycares, and then he had to
start and, you know, at the sametime, he's starting a new job
every three years. So he's inthe he was in the Navy, but
every time you go to a differentduty station, you're doing a
(21:47):
different job. So he's got a newboss, he's got a new position,
he's got new co workers. And sohe's getting used Can you
imagine, like, starting a newjob every three years? And so
while he's dealing with that,you know, I'm dealing with, I'll
never forget. Like the moverscame with our stuff in our
house, and he had to go do workstuff. And so I've got, I've got
(22:11):
a 10 month old baby in a packand play on the front lawn, and
a four year old watching way toomuch television inside. I didn't
know anybody. My family is nothere. I didn't know any of the
neighbors yet, and so I did theentire move into our house by
myself. And he came home at theend of the day and he was like,
how did it go? I'm like, I'mreally tired, yes, and so, and
(22:34):
shortly after that, he startedto his travel cycle started. And
so it was just very difficult.
And even when we startedcounseling, the first counselor,
we did rapid fire sessions. Wewere going a couple times a week
for, I think our longest sessionwas two, two and a half hours,
because she was employed by themilitary. She knew we had to, we
had to lock in some some issues.
(22:58):
And we saw her for a while. Wethought we were doing better,
and then he left for six weeks,and he came back, and we were at
square one.
Colette Fehr (23:06):
Yeah, so what?
Finally, what was the impetusfor this divorce that had been
percolating and getting sweptback under the rug for it to
finally come to fruition? Didyou just feel ready? Did you
feel like you could no longerlive without your identity,
like, what? What was it for you?
Unknown (23:25):
It was the combination of things. I'd say the first
couple of times we talked aboutdivert divorce, he initiated it,
and then the next couple timesit was me. But honestly, in
reality, it was because I got ajob that was paying real money.
And you could finally that wetalk about being stuck again,
but I had no means of supportingmyself, yeah, and so once I got
(23:49):
a job, there was no reason forme to stay anymore.
Colette Fehr (23:53):
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, too, just like
Laura said, you know, astherapists, sitting with people
so often it is the financialpiece, and I kind of did a
Kamikaze, the opposite, where Ihad no means of supporting
myself. And I said, Fuck it, I'mdoing it anyway. And honestly
turned out to be a disaster.
Now, in the long run, I landedon my feet, but it was a
(24:15):
disaster because I had had nocareer. I had no job, I very
foolishly said, I don't reallywant any money from you beyond a
very small amount ofrehabilitative I think I got two
years of measly rehabilitativealimony that was peanuts. In
addition to I did get childsupport, but it wasn't enough to
(24:38):
live on, and it's a big factor.
You know, I had worked for twoyears or so out of college, so I
had nothing to fall back on, andhad to drop out of a master's
degree in creative writing thatI was enrolled in because I
couldn't afford to diddle aroundwith this idea of being like a
creative writer and potentiallyteaching. Teaching, I had to
(25:01):
figure out, what am I going todo to make a living? So I think
even for people who have beenmarried for a long time, even
for people who have worked, thisfinancial piece is so huge, and
I think we would see a hugechange in the rates of divorce
if things were not sooutrageously expensive here, and
more people felt like they couldafford to leave. It is the
(25:24):
number one thing I hear in myoffice from couples who are
ambivalent about wanting to geta divorce. I think it's going to
be a financial disaster. I don'tknow how I'll support myself. So
it really I'm glad that you saidthat, because once you could
leave like your truth was there,but you didn't have the ability
(25:44):
to do it sooner.
Unknown (25:45):
Absolutely, and we even for financial purposes in the
state of Virginia, you can do anin house separation, as long as
you prove that you are livingseparate and apart. And we did a
seven month in house,separation.
Laura Bowman (26:03):
What does that look like? Oh, it was a
nightmare.
Unknown (26:06):
He was dating. I watched him go out on dates. Oh,
my to his credit, like I I willnever go back and say, Oh my
gosh. What is he doing? Like we,we talked about it. He said, How
do you feel about dating? I'mlike, go for it, man, I'm out.
We're not smiling. Go have fun.
A year is a really long time tobe alone. And if you want to
(26:27):
date, go for it. That's fine. Imean, it was hard, don't get me
wrong, and I wasn't reallydating. My friends made me get
on match and everything, but Istayed in therapy for quite a
while, and women always do that.
Men go and women go to therapy,yes,
(26:47):
but I said to myself, you know,the biggest thing that I'm
walking away with is I'vecompletely lost my identity. I
don't know who Heather isanymore. I was a military
spouse. I was his wife. I am mykid's mom. And finally, you
know, with my writing careerkicking up, I'm like, Well, I
finally have a voice. I need tojust roll with that and go from
(27:09):
there. And I did a lot of workon myself. And then finally, as
far as the in house separation,we got to this point where he
just wasn't going anywhere. Hewas not going to be the one
moving out. And I my therapistfinally said to me, it's like,
Heather, don't you think it'stime for you to to move out
there? Don't you think there aretoo many ghosts in your house?
And I said, you know why you areright? So I ended up finding an
(27:33):
apartment in a school zone thatI liked. I moved across town
with the kids, and we hadalready arranged, because he was
on, again, on a travel cycle.
The kids would stay with meduring the week. They would go
to him on the weekends. Andthat's, you know, talking about
custody. Another very uniquething about military divorce is
(27:54):
the custody schedules, becausewe had a great custody schedule
going. And then he got stationedin DC for a year, so he's
commuting, you know, four hourseach way to come home on the
weekends to be with the kids. Hedid that for a year, and then he
got military orders again toHawaii.
Colette Fehr (28:14):
Oh, my God, sir, how do you do? Right? You can't
do every other weekend, no.
Unknown (28:20):
So So what ended up happening is he proposed a
scenario where he wanted thekids to stay with me during the
school year and go stay with himin Hawaii for 10 weeks every
summer. I didn't love that idea.
I went back to an attorney tosee what kind of rights I had,
and she basically said, Iwouldn't waste your money hiring
(28:41):
me. I live in a very highlypopulated military city, and she
said the military judges aroundhere are very sympathetic to
military people who want tospend time with their children.
And he did, and that was thething, too. He wanted to spend
time with them. I couldn't faulthim for that either. And I
couldn't say, Well, don't moveHawaii. You know, there's the
(29:02):
military says, you go, you go.
And so for two summers, we onlydid it for two summers, because
the first summer he was there,it took him a while to find a
house, so he was living in ahotel. So yeah, for two summers,
I had to put my babies on aplane. He came and got them, so
I didn't have to put them on aplane alone. And yeah, of
(29:23):
course, they loved Hawaii. Whowouldn't love spending their
summers in Hawaii. But I wasdevastated. I was I'd never been
apart from them for that, butit's hard for you to get
Laura Bowman (29:31):
like a rhythm.
It's always changing, right?
Even being divorced from him,it's still like this, like you
say it's this roller coaster.
Unknown (29:39):
Yeah, that. That was the name of my blog. It was it,
yeah, riding the roller coaster.
Laura Bowman (29:44):
I've had clients where it's been like a military
custody situation. And you'reabsolutely right. They're very
sympathetic to the militarymember. And it was like, oh,
some heartbreaking situationsI've seen. Wow. So it's got good
advice. From your lawyer
Unknown (30:01):
well, and I was also considering, because, you know,
again, I don't, I didn't haveany family here, and I was
considering moving to Florida tobe near both sets of
grandparents. And I kind ofbrought up the subject with him,
and he said, Don't, please don'tleave. Please give it another
year, because after Hawaii, I'mtrying to come back, but where
(30:24):
my parents are, like, there wasreally very little chance of him
being able to get stationedwhere I was planning on going,
and so I said, Okay, well, we'llgive it, I'll give it a year,
and then I'm out of here becauseI'm alone here. I'm raising
these kids all by myself. Andsure I've I have friends. I have
a ton of friends. Takes AVillage, but I miss being close
(30:44):
to family and so, but I ended upI'm still here because I did
start dating. There you go.
There is hope at the end of allof this. And I did meet
somebody, and so we are stillhere together, so I did not move
to Florida.
Colette Fehr (31:04):
Yeah, and you guys seem to have such a great
connection. You and I havetalked about it, and of course,
I'm we're connected on socialmedia. So let's talk about for
our listeners a little the placein between where we are now and
where you find new love and theright person. You know, what is
the divorce experience like foryou, in particular, with respect
(31:25):
to reclaiming your identity? Youknow, what's the good that can
come out of divorce? Because Ido think there's quite a
Unknown (31:31):
bit there. There's so much good. And you know, it's
funny because one person said tome after my divorce, because
most people like, oh my gosh,I'm so sorry I could never do
it. What happens? I always,never liked that question
either. What happens? You know,when you first get divorced,
you're like, I just want to moveon. Someone said to me once, my
condolences and congratulationsand like, I love that. That's
(31:56):
great, brilliant. And I thinkall of the work that I did in
therapy reintroduced me tomyself, and I ended up going to
my 20th high school reunion. Ihadn't I was kind of sort of
dating, I think, but I went tomy 20th high school reunion, and
everybody was like, You're thesame exact person. You're just
(32:18):
spunky. And I went alone. I atfirst, I'm like, Oh, I don't
have a plus one. I'm embarrassedto tell people I'm divorced,
but, you know, at that point,I'm like, You know what? Fuck
it. Here I go. I'm going. And Ihad a blast. And that kind of
made me realize, you know, okay,this is who I am. And it was one
of those situations when I didreally start dating, and I did
(32:42):
get on the apps, and, you know,my friends kind of pushed me,
and my married friends wereliving vicariously through me
and this cute guy. And ofcourse, I'm almost 40 years old,
and at the time like, Oh, I'mdating it, you know, 39 but
going into dating, knowingmyself again and reclaiming that
identity that was completelylost behind my my then husband.
(33:07):
It really made it a little biteasier the dating, yeah, you
know, the dating wasn't superfun. I had a lot of really bad
first dates, but I think thereason I never got into another
bad relationship after that wasbecause I'm like, Well, I'm not
putting up with this again, andI'm not putting up with this
again. And you know, if theydon't like who I am, well, he
(33:28):
can leave. I don't need to keepgoing on dates. Are plenty of
guys out there, and I didrealize after a lot of bad first
dates that I would much ratherbe alone than be in a bad
relationship again.
Laura Bowman (33:40):
That's such a powerful place.
Colette Fehr (33:43):
That's the tagline of life, right? It's better to
be alone than in a badrelationship,
Laura Bowman (33:49):
but that's the energy you have to occupy to
actually attract somethingthat's worth having.
Unknown (33:56):
I agree, and I do like for for me, I was used to being
alone. I spent a lot of mymarriage alone, and so, you
know, the, actually, themilitary taught me a lot about
the things I needed. You know,we go back to that word
resilience. You know, I wasresilient. I knew how to be
resilient. And I knew if I couldjust push through, okay, I if I
(34:16):
could just move into thisapartment and get settled and
make it a home, I'll be fine.
I'm gonna get settled at this,this job that I have, I'm making
money, you know, all of thesethings. I just knew I'm like,
Okay, I'm just going to pushthrough. I know I'm resilient. I
know I could deal with this.
This is a rough time. Andsomeone did once tell me, they
said, the first year after thedivorce is going to be the
hardest year of your life. Andit was. And I tell people, too,
(34:39):
I don't want to blow smoke upanyone's rear ends, but it is
very hard, don't yeah, like, itwasn't instantly easy, but there
is a time where you're like,Wow, I'm so glad I left that
marriage, because I cannot evenimagine living the rest of my
life with that person. It wouldhave hollowed you. Out
(35:00):
absolutely I already felt likelike a shell of a person, right?
Colette Fehr (35:04):
Because it's the self abandonment that cost you.
This is what my upcoming book isabout, that you sacrifice your
relationship with yourself, youressential self, to stay into
something that robs you of whoyou are. And I think this is
really the biggest reason to enda relationship, not that anybody
needs to justify their decisionto leave, but when it when it
(35:26):
comes to that, when you can't bewho you are, when you can't feel
safe and whole and connected,it's a really, really risky
proposition. And so I think whatyou're saying right now, that I
love is that for somebodylistening, maybe, who is
grappling with wanting adivorce, but really scared, you
(35:49):
know, scared of dating, scaredof finances, scared they'll be
alone forever, scared ofjudgment, any and all of the
above that there is a roughperiod. There's a period of
right? It's still a loss, it'sstill a death, it's still
change, which is hard on oursystem. We have to have a
reintegration, like youmentioned, for our new life and
(36:10):
to being truly alone, becausethere's being alone every day,
logistically, but there's thefeeling, the existential feeling
of knowing that you move throughthe world on your own that can
really hit you in a profoundway. So you have to come to
terms with that. But then thereis just so much there's Healthy
Love, there's boundaries,there's knowing who you are,
(36:32):
there's knowing you can be onyour own. So there's so much
hope for anybody who's feelinglike I want to do this, but I
can't, or I'm scared I can't.
Laura Bowman (36:43):
Where do you tell like, our listener, if some, if
a woman is in that place rightnow, like, where do you start?
Like, what's the first step? Oh,boy,
Unknown (36:52):
as far as, like, deciding you want to divorce, or
the first steps,
Laura Bowman (36:56):
the thing that will, like, pull you through,
like, maybe the thread thatcarries you through, or the
first thing to start investingin.
Unknown (37:03):
I think, just Well, as you know, get a good counselor,
learn more about yourself, get avillage. You know, I could not
have gotten through my divorcewith certain people, with my
parents, my brother, my bestfriends. You know, the people
you could call in the middle ofthe night and just spiral and
talk in circles and just get itout of your system. You know,
(37:25):
brain bomb, it. Do yourresearch. You know, know what
your financials are. And for thelongest time, you know, before I
started looking into that andreally looking at lawyers, and I
paid the bills, but I didn'treally know where all of our
money was, and so I just kind oflearned up on, okay, this is,
this is in this account, andthis is in this account, and
(37:46):
this is how much we owe in thehouse and things like that. And
then I started making a budget,okay, this is how much I can
afford. So when I startedlooking for apartments, I knew
how much I'm like, Okay, I can'tgo over this monthly amount, but
there are places that I canafford to start looking, maybe
get a realtor, but just, justhave people in your corner.
(38:07):
Don't do it alone. And I thinkfor me, I suffered so long in
silence, like I'm in thishorrible marriage, I didn't even
tell some my closest friends.
You know, there was one time wejust moved here from Japan. I
think we were even still jetlagged, and we moved into our
house. And the house we boughtthe house sight unseen. It was a
mess. It needed so much work. Soone of my friends came in from
(38:27):
out of town, and she was helpingme scrape wallpaper and going to
TJ Maxx with me and home goods,and she pulled me aside one
time, and she's like, You guysfight constantly. And I was
like, Yeah, you know, we do,right? And I'm trying to confide
in her, like I still hadn't toldher, Oh, yeah, like a few weeks
(38:48):
ago, he told me he wanted adivorce, and you know, you you
can't, you can't keep it in. Youalso can't internalize these
things for the longest time. I'mlike, Well, this must be my
fault, so I'm the one holdingdown the home home front, and
I'm the person who's stabilizingour entire lives so that he can
get his job done. And I justthought it was me, and he would
(39:12):
ask me, Well, are you depressed?
I'm like, No, I'm not depressed.
I just, I don't, I don't like,I've again with starting the
blog, I needed something more inmy life. And I think once I left
the marriage and kind of gotback on my feet, looking back, I
realized, Oh, I needed somethingelse, and that something else
was my identity, because it wasjust gone.
Colette Fehr (39:34):
Wow, yeah, that's it. Okay. This is so powerful.
And I think not only are peoplegoing to enjoy the book for your
story and your beautifulwriting, but really, just to get
a lot, even if you're not goingthrough a divorce, about the
process as women, particularlyin midlife, of really reclaiming
our identity, being trulyconnected to ourselves at the
(39:57):
core, who we really are, andliving a life that'll. Allows us
to be that, whether it's with apartner or not. So I want to
Heather as we wrap up, can youjust tell everyone how to find
you and how to find your book?
And we'll have this in the shownotes, of course, too.
Unknown (40:13):
Absolutely. So my book is called camouflage, how I
emerged from the shadows of amilitary marriage. You could buy
it on Amazon, Barnes and Noblebookshop, Target, Walmart. You
can check me out on my website.
It's Heather l sweeney.com andI'm probably not a bunch of
socials. I'm probably mostactive on Instagram. That is
writer Sweeney. I have a substack that I'm kind of sort of
(40:38):
writing on regularly, but I'm onblue sky. I'm on Twitter, X,
whatever you want while I'mstill on that. So, yeah, I'm
kind of all over the place. I'mpretty easy to find.
Colette Fehr (40:51):
It's great. It's great. So definitely connect
with Heather after the episodeand grab her book. I really, I
am not one to rave aboutanyone's writing, but I really
do think, I mean, it's true,it's true, Laura,
Unknown (41:06):
it's true.
Colette Fehr (41:08):
Yes, you're really just so talented, and I think
your story is going to impactour listeners and a lot of
people, and give people again,so much hope about what's
possible in our second chapters.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Unknown (41:23):
Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.
And Colette, I can't wait foryour book.
Colette Fehr (41:28):
Thank you. It's feels like it's, it's gonna be
like we're gonna be 90 years oldand doing a new podcast on like,
preparing to die by the time mybook comes out. But eventually
it'll be here. Only five monthsto go. Yes, it'll be here. So
thank you so much again,Heather, so excited for you.
Everyone go grab your copy ofcamouflage. Thank you all for
(41:49):
listening. We hope you got somegreat insights from our couch
today, and we'll see you nexttime. Bye guys. You.
Marc, welcome to insights from the couch, where
real conversations meet real
Laura Bowman (00:07):
life. At midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two
therapists and best friends,walking through the journey
right alongside you, whetheryou're feeling stuck, restless
or just unsure of what's next.
This is a space for honestconversations, messy truths and
meaningful change.
Colette Fehr (00:26):
And our midlife master class is now open. If
you're looking to level up, getinto action and make midlife the
best season yet. Go to insightsfrom the couch.org and join our
wait list. Now let's dive in.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. I'm so excited to
introduce you guys to a friendof mine, super talented author,
Heather Sweeney, her book thatis just out now, camouflage how
(00:51):
I emerged from the shadows of amilitary marriage is something
you're all going to want to gograb ASAP. Her writing is
beautiful, and this is really astory about identity, recovery,
resilience, reclaiming yourselfthat I already have goose bumps.
(01:11):
I can't wait to dive in, and Iwant Heather to tell you
everything in her own words. SoHeather, welcome. We're so happy
to have you here.
Unknown (01:21):
Thank you so much.
Colette and Laura. I'm thrilledto be here. I love your podcast.
Colette Fehr (01:26):
Thank you. Thank you. So maybe we could just
start by tell us a little bitabout yourself and how this book
came to be,
Unknown (01:35):
sure, sure. Well, I'm Heather Sweeney. I have been a
writer for about 15 years or so,and I've done some freelance
work. I started, actually, Istarted as a blogger. I was a
stay at home mom, and I kind ofneeded something that wasn't
mommy, wife related. And I was amilitary spouse, and my then
(02:00):
husband was about to go ondeployment again, and I thought
I just, I need something for me.
And it was actually my mother inlaw who was like, why don't you
start a blog? And I'm like,Well, I don't know how to blog,
but I did, and just kind offigured it out as I went along,
and that it kind of spiraled andsnowballed, and I ended up
(02:22):
getting a job as a writer, and Istarted freelancing more, and
the way the book came to be,it's funny, I wasn't even
writing this book. I was writinga novel. I was writing fiction,
something completely different,and I had published this
article, and I had gottendivorced, and I published this
article, and it was called TheFive marriage tips from a
(02:45):
divorced military spouse. Oh andyes, and I had gotten so much
response from it just emailsfrom other military spouses
saying, Nobody talks aboutmilitary divorce. Please write
more. Please write a book. Ithought, Well, okay, I'm not
sure I have enough for a book.
(03:06):
I'll just, I'll go through myown journals. Well, I was just
an avid journaler. I journallike crazy, and I went back
through about 20 years ofjournals. Oh my gosh, thinking
that I might not have enoughmaterial for a book, and then
suddenly I had a very, very longbook that I had to cut 1000s and
(03:27):
1000s of words from. But yeah,so then, you know, it kind of
went from there looking for anagent and a publisher. And here
it
Laura Bowman (03:36):
is, yay. I mean, can you, first of all, I'm
curious, like, what was the blogabout?
Unknown (03:42):
It was called riding the roller coaster, and it was
about just military life, beinga spouse. And, you know, I had
lived in Japan before I movedhere to Virginia, and I so wish
I'd started a blog when we livedin Japan, because how cool was
that we were there for threeyears. My daughter was born in
Japan, and yeah, just I met somany wonderful people that I'm
(04:07):
still friends with throughblogging. It was a lot of just
online connections, and we kindof realized, Oh, wow. Well,
we're going through the samethings. We're all kind of
lonely. Our husbands are gone,and there's some male military
spouses, but mostly women. And Ijust connected and thought, this
is just wonderful that we're allsharing our stories. And I had
(04:29):
no I was like, kind of dealingwith all of this internally and
being resilient like we'resupposed to be. And I have a
hard time with that wordsometimes, because I heard it so
much as a military spouse, beresilient, support your spouse's
career, and, you know, play yourrole as the spouse. And it was
(04:51):
hard sometimes, so it was niceand rotary on the on the
blogging world.
Colette Fehr (04:56):
Heather, You're so modest. I just want to throw
out. To the audience. Heather isa major, known writer whose work
appears. No, it is. And I knowyou're not going to be bragging,
so I'm going to be bragging. Ijust want to set the scene here
that not only are you a talentedwriter, but you're all over the
place, like USA Today. GoodHousekeeping. Can you just name
(05:17):
a couple of places? I mean, I'veread your article that you wrote
on the golden bachelor that wasin the newspaper. I mean, you
write, and these are pieces thatyou write, like when I'm in the
news. It's a quote for me as arelationship expert, but you are
a contributing writer to thebiggest national publication. So
can you just name a place as afew places where people can find
(05:37):
your work?
Unknown (05:38):
Sure, then. And the New York Times, The Washington Post,
Huff Post, News Week, BusinessInsider, I have hundreds of
articles that military.comHealth Line, grown and flown. I
know I'm leaving now,
Colette Fehr (05:56):
but at least people get the idea like, Yeah,
I mean you're, you are a bigtime writer, so to turn all of
that into a memoir, right? Thisis your first memoir, correct?
Unknown (06:09):
It's my first book.
It's my first memoir, yes, yes,and I was gonna say my the way
it all started with myfreelancing was I kind of just
lucked out with a New York Timeseditor, but I ended up
announcing my divorce in the NewYork Times, wow. Wait, tell us
that how? Yes, most people youknow announce their their
(06:30):
weddings.
Colette Fehr (06:32):
Yeah, mine was it.
My wedding was in The New YorkTimes wedding, and I got
divorced a few years later. Thatshould have been in there.
Unknown (06:39):
Yeah. And you know what, I've actually read things
recently. Oh, should peopleannounce their divorces or just
kind of go quietly, you know,into social media with somebody
else? But yes, so I had workedwith this New York Times editor
twice before. He was the magiceditor of the at war section of
(07:01):
New York Times, and it was a lotof veterans and service members
and spouses writing just aboutmilitary life. And I messaged
him one day and I said, Look,I've got this piece. I'm getting
divorced. And actually, my piecethat I wrote before that was
about going to marriagecounseling and how marriage
counseling was going to save mymarriage. You know, spoiler
alert, it didn't but I said,I've got this piece. I'm getting
(07:26):
divorced, but I promised myfuture ex that I was not going
to write about the divorce untilthe year long separation was
over and the divorce wasfinalized. And he's like, great.
Send me a draft and we'll sit onit. Just let me know when you
want me to post it. I'm like,fantastic. So court date rolls
around, I'm fully divorced. Ihave reverted back to my maiden
(07:49):
name. I'm leaving the courtroomwith my best friend and doo doo
doo. I send out an email, andabout two hours later, my
divorce was announced in the NewYork Times.
Wow,
Colette Fehr (08:02):
yeah, very cool, that that needs to become a
thing, yeah, yeah.
Laura Bowman (08:06):
Like, proudly,
Unknown (08:08):
I was very lucky. You know, a lot of editors, they
want to post something when theywant to post it, and he's like,
No, I'll wait. I'm good. Like,great. So cool, yeah, so I
Laura Bowman (08:19):
just want to go back. I love your bio. That's
amazing. I'm glad our listenersget to know, like, what a true
writer you are. But I'm justcurious about because I don't
know, and I'm guessing, likesome of our listeners don't know
either, like, what, what are thecontours of, like, a military
marriage?
Unknown (08:38):
Oh, wow. It's very layered. It's very nuanced. It's
not easy. It's not an easylifestyle, lifestyle. My hat
goes off to every militaryspouse right now. It's a lot of
uncertainty. There aredeployments. There's a lot of
moves, even little trips. Hewould go off for, you know, just
a week or whatever, but it wasalways very last minute and
(09:01):
throwing stuff into a bag, and,you know, forgetting things, and
it's not easy, and, you know,and I wouldn't say that my
divorce. I can't blame themilitary on my divorce. I think
that there are plenty. I've aton of military spouse friends
who, you know, they'll complainabout certain aspects of the
military life, but ultimatelythey're with the right person,
(09:24):
and those hardships are a littlebit easier when you're with
somebody that you can share itwith and talk it over with, and
you know you can commiserate andyou understand each other. I was
going through these hardshipswith the wrong person, and we
were just not on the same page,and I felt very alone, even when
(09:45):
he was home. And there weretimes also, and I started
realizing that things weren'tgoing well when I started
looking forward to him leaving,even when we were in Japan, and
I'm far away from my family. Wehad two little kids at the time
when we were in Japan. Newbornbaby and a four year old, and I
there was one time he left and Ihad the stomach flu. I had to do
(10:08):
Easter by myself. I had the twolittle kids, and the second he
walked out the door, I just kindof exhaled, and I'm like, Oh my
gosh, I'm I'd just rather dealwith this all by myself.
Laura Bowman (10:18):
That's when you know. That's when you know,
Colette Fehr (10:22):
what is it about a military like? Is there anything
that might surprise someoneabout a military marriage, or
the unique challenges you facethat you can think of because I
can't even imagine, you know, Idon't have a frame of reference
for what that's like. As far as
Unknown (10:41):
being a spouse. I don't know what it's like being a
service member. They have awhole separate you know, write a
whole book on the hardships of aservice member, but I think as a
spouse, one thing that I dealtwith, and I saw a lot of other
spouses deal with, and Icompletely lost my identity in
his career, and I was a stay athome mom, and kind of my full
(11:05):
time job was being a spouse,because I had to hold down the
home front while he was gone.
And he was gone a lot, I wouldsay he was gone for more than
half of our marriage. Wow. Andyou know, I'm raising the kids
by myself, and I only had two.
I'm like, I don't even know howpeople with more than to do it.
I just, I couldn't run that. Butyou're not really supposed to
complain about the hardships.
Nobody says that. It's not. It'skind of an unwritten rule. You
(11:28):
there's, there's one thing thata lot of military spouses hear
from their civiliancounterparts, and we all just,
you know, kind of cringe when,here it is. You knew what you
were getting into and I alwayshated that, because first of
all, when I married my husband,he was not in the military yet,
and he joined the military abouta week, two weeks after we got
(11:51):
married, but so I knew it wascoming. But you know, it's
almost like telling a newlypregnant mother who doesn't have
any other children? Oh, well,you knew you asked for this. You
knew what you were getting intobeing a mother as well. You
don't know until you're in it,till you're in the thick of it.
And you even if some people growup as a military brat, and then
(12:12):
they marry into the military,and still, it's a completely
different perspective as aspouse rather than as a child,
and it's just on the jobtraining. And I'm a really good
Packer. I can pack really well.
We moved a lot. In Japan, welived in three different houses.
(12:34):
Even we were in Pensacola,Florida first, and we lived in
two different houses. So yeah,we moved a lot.
Colette Fehr (12:41):
How long were you married? And how old were you
when you got divorced?
Unknown (12:45):
We were married for 13 years, together for 15 and I was
37 I believe 36 or 37 I wasprobably 36 when we separated,
and about 37
Colette Fehr (12:58):
when we divorced.
And how old were your kids atthe time of the divorce?
Unknown (13:02):
They were five and nine. Okay,
Colette Fehr (13:06):
yeah, yes. And so are you, to whatever degree
you're comfortable sharing, whatare some of the I mean, I
appreciate you made thedistinction between even though
there are challenges and specialfactors that are unique to a
military marriage, that it isnot the military that caused
this divorce. That's not thestory. Was not the right person.
(13:26):
We were not right for eachother. And as you both and all
our listeners know, I'm sure bynow, I also got divorced around
the same time. Length ofrelationship, not a military
marriage, when my kids were oneand a half and three and a half?
Yeah, so, and I think there area lot of people out there, we
know, just bringing in therelationship perspective, that
(13:49):
the two biggest times of divorcein people's lives are when the
kids are young, because there'ssuch intense demands that if
there are fractures in therelationship, they tend to be
expressed at that stage, andthen also the emptiness stage,
when people may have for yearsfocused on a kid centric
marriage and grown apart, andthey wake up one day and look at
(14:10):
each other and go, I don't evenknow you, and I don't want to
the newly named Gray Divorce. SoI think there, and I know there
are a lot of listeners outthere. Obviously some are
happily married, some arehappily single, but there are
also a lot of people out theredivorced, a lot of people who
are in marriages that are notfulfilling, that are not
emotionally connected, thatthey're grappling with. Should I
(14:32):
get a divorce? Should I not geta divorce? Maybe they haven't
even talked to anybody about it,because it's still even though
it's so common, it's sostigmatized. So could you share
just a little bit of again,whatever you're comfortable
with, like your thought process,what was pushing on you to
consider divorce? Because it'snot an easy step to take, and
(14:52):
there had to be some pretty bigreasons or compelling factors
that moved you. Oh.
Unknown (15:00):
Boy, we actually talked about divorce for years. I mean,
the word was out, and in ourmarriage, it was in our
atmosphere for many years. Andthe first time he told me he
wanted a divorce, we were inJapan, and my daughter was nine
months old, and I'm like, Well,I don't have a job. We agreed
(15:25):
that I was going to be a stay athome mom, just it's and I had a
master's degree. At the time, Ihad gotten a master's degree. I
finished it up when our son wassix months old, and he was in
Iraq, so I was on my own. He'sin Iraq about a six month old. I
just got my master's degree, andthen four months later,
Colette Fehr (15:42):
really shit, yeah, what's your master's
Laura Bowman (15:45):
in? Yeah, what's the Master's in? I
Unknown (15:47):
I'm all over the place.
My undergraduate degree is inpsychology, and my master's
degree is in elementaryeducation. I was going to be a
teacher. I was a kindergartenteacher for two years before I
became a full time writer. Ilove that. Wow. So part of our
problem at the be, at the getgo, was that, because we were
(16:08):
apart all the time, we kind ofswept our problems under the
rug. And so every time we hadlike, so when he was preparing
to go somewhere, whether it wasa deployment or even like,
sometimes he would go to Europefor six weeks, I mean, or
sometimes it was a week. Butwhen they're preparing to leave,
you have a lot to do. You've gotto just get we always had to
have an updated Power ofAttorney. For me, his will
(16:30):
always had to be updated, youknow, going on deployments to
the Middle East, you know, webasically had to prepare for him
not coming back. Wow. So you'retrying to do the logistics while
also, I have to spend qualitytime with him. I'm not going to
see him for six months. And thenwhile he's gone, you don't want
to fight while he's gone,because you're supposed to miss
him. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(16:56):
Strikes are high, right? And sothen when he comes back, there's
actually a term calledreintegration, which nobody told
me about. When they first comeback from deployment, everybody
has to learn how to livetogether again. So it's called
reintegration. I had to get usedto share, you know, I had a
schedule with my kids, and heinterrupted it when he came
(17:17):
home. But then when he camehome, he's used to, you know,
having his own schedule andeating what he wants, and not
having a toddler tugging on hispant leg. And so it was an
adjust, and that, you know, thekids wouldn't when he came home
from Iraq. Or, you know, weleft, my son was six months old.
When he came back, he my son wasa year old. Well, he didn't know
his dad, who his dad was. Sothere's just this reintegration,
(17:41):
and then, so you don't want touse that time fighting either.
And then the next thing youknow, we're moving to another
country.
Laura Bowman (17:48):
And then there's never time to process.
Unknown (17:50):
There's never time. And there's also, it's not so much
anymore, because we're talkingthis was about 10 years ago,
more than 10 years ago, andthere is such a stigma for
people in the military gettinghelp, because you think of the
military and you kind ofassociate it with strength, both
physical and mental strength.
That's our military. They'restrong. They're fighters. And so
(18:12):
when we really needed thecounseling, we couldn't get it
in Japan. It was a very, verysmall base. We hung out with and
sang karaoke with thecounselors, so maybe they sensed
something, but we couldn't, youknow, we hung out with them, and
then we moved back here, and itwas just he didn't want to go to
(18:34):
counseling, and I understood whyhe didn't want it in his
military record. Now there's amuch less stigma to it. But at
the time, you know, this was2010 2011 and he's just like, we
just can't do it. We saw, weended up seeing three different
counselors, one of which was anemployee of the military, and
she was not for me. She was notadvocating for me. She was
(18:59):
definitely hired to make surethat the service member was
ready to go and didn't care somuch about my mental health,
like
Laura Bowman (19:09):
keep you in your role. Essentially, absolutely,
Unknown (19:12):
absolutely. My role was to be a spouse and to hold down
the the home front and dowhatever I needed to do to make
sure he was good to go on hishis mission.
Colette Fehr (19:24):
Wow. So when you when he says to you the first
time, you know, I might want adivorce, that words first
floated at that point, are youso emotionally disconnected
already that it doesn'tdevastate you? Or are you
floored by this, and like justgut wrenched.
Unknown (19:43):
I was surprised that he verbalized it, but I was kind of
having my own divorce daydreamsmyself and for me. And I do
write about this in the book, myfirst thoughts were not, Oh, my
God. I can't live without thisman. Oh my gosh. What am I going
to do? My first thoughts were,how do I get a job? How do I get
(20:07):
some money? Where am I going tolive? You know, how am I going
to find childcare? How am Igoing to pay for childcare?
Those were my first thoughts.
Colette Fehr (20:15):
And telling, isn't it? It's telling, because that
was, those were my firstthoughts too.
Laura Bowman (20:20):
But thank you for saying that, because I think
that we under report how muchthat like, really factor. I
mean, I think that is such ahuge factor for women, is like,
How safe are they? Can theyreally take care of themselves?
Can they take care of theirkids? And if the answer comes
up, no, you're really stuckthere
Unknown (20:39):
for a while I was I was stuck for years.
Laura Bowman (20:43):
Okay to talk to me about being stuck for years,
Unknown (20:48):
I think after the first time we talked about divorce,
gosh, that was probably in about2008 and we didn't separate
until 2012 So, gosh, yeah, fourmore years
Laura Bowman (21:01):
were you planning the whole time? Like, tell what
was the process behind thescenes for you?
Unknown (21:06):
I wasn't again. It was kind of like when we first
talked about it, we were aboutto move from Japan back to the
states, like all of ourfurniture was already packed up,
like everything we alreadybought a house here in in
Virginia, I'm still in the sameplace where we moved after
Japan, and we just swept itunder the rug again, like we did
(21:27):
for everything else, becausethere were so many things we
were moved to Virginia. We hadto buy a car, we had to get the
kids enrolled in school and lookfor daycares, and then he had to
start and, you know, at the sametime, he's starting a new job
every three years. So he's inthe he was in the Navy, but
every time you go to a differentduty station, you're doing a
(21:47):
different job. So he's got a newboss, he's got a new position,
he's got new co workers. And sohe's getting used Can you
imagine, like, starting a newjob every three years? And so
while he's dealing with that,you know, I'm dealing with, I'll
never forget. Like the moverscame with our stuff in our
house, and he had to go do workstuff. And so I've got, I've got
(22:11):
a 10 month old baby in a packand play on the front lawn, and
a four year old watching way toomuch television inside. I didn't
know anybody. My family is nothere. I didn't know any of the
neighbors yet, and so I did theentire move into our house by
myself. And he came home at theend of the day and he was like,
how did it go? I'm like, I'mreally tired, yes, and so, and
(22:34):
shortly after that, he startedto his travel cycle started. And
so it was just very difficult.
And even when we startedcounseling, the first counselor,
we did rapid fire sessions. Wewere going a couple times a week
for, I think our longest sessionwas two, two and a half hours,
because she was employed by themilitary. She knew we had to, we
had to lock in some some issues.
(22:58):
And we saw her for a while. Wethought we were doing better,
and then he left for six weeks,and he came back, and we were at
square one.
Colette Fehr (23:06):
Yeah, so what?
Finally, what was the impetusfor this divorce that had been
percolating and getting sweptback under the rug for it to
finally come to fruition? Didyou just feel ready? Did you
feel like you could no longerlive without your identity,
like, what? What was it for you?
Unknown (23:25):
It was the combination of things. I'd say the first
couple of times we talked aboutdivert divorce, he initiated it,
and then the next couple timesit was me. But honestly, in
reality, it was because I got ajob that was paying real money.
And you could finally that wetalk about being stuck again,
but I had no means of supportingmyself, yeah, and so once I got
(23:49):
a job, there was no reason forme to stay anymore.
Colette Fehr (23:53):
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, too, just like
Laura said, you know, astherapists, sitting with people
so often it is the financialpiece, and I kind of did a
Kamikaze, the opposite, where Ihad no means of supporting
myself. And I said, Fuck it, I'mdoing it anyway. And honestly
turned out to be a disaster.
Now, in the long run, I landedon my feet, but it was a
(24:15):
disaster because I had had nocareer. I had no job, I very
foolishly said, I don't reallywant any money from you beyond a
very small amount ofrehabilitative I think I got two
years of measly rehabilitativealimony that was peanuts. In
addition to I did get childsupport, but it wasn't enough to
(24:38):
live on, and it's a big factor.
You know, I had worked for twoyears or so out of college, so I
had nothing to fall back on, andhad to drop out of a master's
degree in creative writing thatI was enrolled in because I
couldn't afford to diddle aroundwith this idea of being like a
creative writer and potentiallyteaching. Teaching, I had to
(25:01):
figure out, what am I going todo to make a living? So I think
even for people who have beenmarried for a long time, even
for people who have worked, thisfinancial piece is so huge, and
I think we would see a hugechange in the rates of divorce
if things were not sooutrageously expensive here, and
more people felt like they couldafford to leave. It is the
(25:24):
number one thing I hear in myoffice from couples who are
ambivalent about wanting to geta divorce. I think it's going to
be a financial disaster. I don'tknow how I'll support myself. So
it really I'm glad that you saidthat, because once you could
leave like your truth was there,but you didn't have the ability
(25:44):
to do it sooner.
Unknown (25:45):
Absolutely, and we even for financial purposes in the
state of Virginia, you can do anin house separation, as long as
you prove that you are livingseparate and apart. And we did a
seven month in house,separation.
Laura Bowman (26:03):
What does that look like? Oh, it was a
nightmare.
Unknown (26:06):
He was dating. I watched him go out on dates. Oh,
my to his credit, like I I willnever go back and say, Oh my
gosh. What is he doing? Like we,we talked about it. He said, How
do you feel about dating? I'mlike, go for it, man, I'm out.
We're not smiling. Go have fun.
A year is a really long time tobe alone. And if you want to
(26:27):
date, go for it. That's fine. Imean, it was hard, don't get me
wrong, and I wasn't reallydating. My friends made me get
on match and everything, but Istayed in therapy for quite a
while, and women always do that.
Men go and women go to therapy,yes,
(26:47):
but I said to myself, you know,the biggest thing that I'm
walking away with is I'vecompletely lost my identity. I
don't know who Heather isanymore. I was a military
spouse. I was his wife. I am mykid's mom. And finally, you
know, with my writing careerkicking up, I'm like, Well, I
finally have a voice. I need tojust roll with that and go from
(27:09):
there. And I did a lot of workon myself. And then finally, as
far as the in house separation,we got to this point where he
just wasn't going anywhere. Hewas not going to be the one
moving out. And I my therapistfinally said to me, it's like,
Heather, don't you think it'stime for you to to move out
there? Don't you think there aretoo many ghosts in your house?
And I said, you know why you areright? So I ended up finding an
(27:33):
apartment in a school zone thatI liked. I moved across town
with the kids, and we hadalready arranged, because he was
on, again, on a travel cycle.
The kids would stay with meduring the week. They would go
to him on the weekends. Andthat's, you know, talking about
custody. Another very uniquething about military divorce is
(27:54):
the custody schedules, becausewe had a great custody schedule
going. And then he got stationedin DC for a year, so he's
commuting, you know, four hourseach way to come home on the
weekends to be with the kids. Hedid that for a year, and then he
got military orders again toHawaii.
Colette Fehr (28:14):
Oh, my God, sir, how do you do? Right? You can't
do every other weekend, no.
Unknown (28:20):
So So what ended up happening is he proposed a
scenario where he wanted thekids to stay with me during the
school year and go stay with himin Hawaii for 10 weeks every
summer. I didn't love that idea.
I went back to an attorney tosee what kind of rights I had,
and she basically said, Iwouldn't waste your money hiring
(28:41):
me. I live in a very highlypopulated military city, and she
said the military judges aroundhere are very sympathetic to
military people who want tospend time with their children.
And he did, and that was thething, too. He wanted to spend
time with them. I couldn't faulthim for that either. And I
couldn't say, Well, don't moveHawaii. You know, there's the
(29:02):
military says, you go, you go.
And so for two summers, we onlydid it for two summers, because
the first summer he was there,it took him a while to find a
house, so he was living in ahotel. So yeah, for two summers,
I had to put my babies on aplane. He came and got them, so
I didn't have to put them on aplane alone. And yeah, of
(29:23):
course, they loved Hawaii. Whowouldn't love spending their
summers in Hawaii. But I wasdevastated. I was I'd never been
apart from them for that, butit's hard for you to get
Laura Bowman (29:31):
like a rhythm.
It's always changing, right?
Even being divorced from him,it's still like this, like you
say it's this roller coaster.
Unknown (29:39):
Yeah, that. That was the name of my blog. It was it,
yeah, riding the roller coaster.
Laura Bowman (29:44):
I've had clients where it's been like a military
custody situation. And you'reabsolutely right. They're very
sympathetic to the militarymember. And it was like, oh,
some heartbreaking situationsI've seen. Wow. So it's got good
advice. From your lawyer
Unknown (30:01):
well, and I was also considering, because, you know,
again, I don't, I didn't haveany family here, and I was
considering moving to Florida tobe near both sets of
grandparents. And I kind ofbrought up the subject with him,
and he said, Don't, please don'tleave. Please give it another
year, because after Hawaii, I'mtrying to come back, but where
(30:24):
my parents are, like, there wasreally very little chance of him
being able to get stationedwhere I was planning on going,
and so I said, Okay, well, we'llgive it, I'll give it a year,
and then I'm out of here becauseI'm alone here. I'm raising
these kids all by myself. Andsure I've I have friends. I have
a ton of friends. Takes AVillage, but I miss being close
(30:44):
to family and so, but I ended upI'm still here because I did
start dating. There you go.
There is hope at the end of allof this. And I did meet
somebody, and so we are stillhere together, so I did not move
to Florida.
Colette Fehr (31:04):
Yeah, and you guys seem to have such a great
connection. You and I havetalked about it, and of course,
I'm we're connected on socialmedia. So let's talk about for
our listeners a little the placein between where we are now and
where you find new love and theright person. You know, what is
the divorce experience like foryou, in particular, with respect
(31:25):
to reclaiming your identity? Youknow, what's the good that can
come out of divorce? Because Ido think there's quite a
Unknown (31:31):
bit there. There's so much good. And you know, it's
funny because one person said tome after my divorce, because
most people like, oh my gosh,I'm so sorry I could never do
it. What happens? I always,never liked that question
either. What happens? You know,when you first get divorced,
you're like, I just want to moveon. Someone said to me once, my
condolences and congratulationsand like, I love that. That's
(31:56):
great, brilliant. And I thinkall of the work that I did in
therapy reintroduced me tomyself, and I ended up going to
my 20th high school reunion. Ihadn't I was kind of sort of
dating, I think, but I went tomy 20th high school reunion, and
everybody was like, You're thesame exact person. You're just
(32:18):
spunky. And I went alone. I atfirst, I'm like, Oh, I don't
have a plus one. I'm embarrassedto tell people I'm divorced,
but, you know, at that point,I'm like, You know what? Fuck
it. Here I go. I'm going. And Ihad a blast. And that kind of
made me realize, you know, okay,this is who I am. And it was one
of those situations when I didreally start dating, and I did
(32:42):
get on the apps, and, you know,my friends kind of pushed me,
and my married friends wereliving vicariously through me
and this cute guy. And ofcourse, I'm almost 40 years old,
and at the time like, Oh, I'mdating it, you know, 39 but
going into dating, knowingmyself again and reclaiming that
identity that was completelylost behind my my then husband.
(33:07):
It really made it a little biteasier the dating, yeah, you
know, the dating wasn't superfun. I had a lot of really bad
first dates, but I think thereason I never got into another
bad relationship after that wasbecause I'm like, Well, I'm not
putting up with this again, andI'm not putting up with this
again. And you know, if theydon't like who I am, well, he
(33:28):
can leave. I don't need to keepgoing on dates. Are plenty of
guys out there, and I didrealize after a lot of bad first
dates that I would much ratherbe alone than be in a bad
relationship again.
Laura Bowman (33:40):
That's such a powerful place.
Colette Fehr (33:43):
That's the tagline of life, right? It's better to
be alone than in a badrelationship,
Laura Bowman (33:49):
but that's the energy you have to occupy to
actually attract somethingthat's worth having.
Unknown (33:56):
I agree, and I do like for for me, I was used to being
alone. I spent a lot of mymarriage alone, and so, you
know, the, actually, themilitary taught me a lot about
the things I needed. You know,we go back to that word
resilience. You know, I wasresilient. I knew how to be
resilient. And I knew if I couldjust push through, okay, I if I
(34:16):
could just move into thisapartment and get settled and
make it a home, I'll be fine.
I'm gonna get settled at this,this job that I have, I'm making
money, you know, all of thesethings. I just knew I'm like,
Okay, I'm just going to pushthrough. I know I'm resilient. I
know I could deal with this.
This is a rough time. Andsomeone did once tell me, they
said, the first year after thedivorce is going to be the
hardest year of your life. Andit was. And I tell people, too,
(34:39):
I don't want to blow smoke upanyone's rear ends, but it is
very hard, don't yeah, like, itwasn't instantly easy, but there
is a time where you're like,Wow, I'm so glad I left that
marriage, because I cannot evenimagine living the rest of my
life with that person. It wouldhave hollowed you. Out
(35:00):
absolutely I already felt likelike a shell of a person, right?
Colette Fehr (35:04):
Because it's the self abandonment that cost you.
This is what my upcoming book isabout, that you sacrifice your
relationship with yourself, youressential self, to stay into
something that robs you of whoyou are. And I think this is
really the biggest reason to enda relationship, not that anybody
needs to justify their decisionto leave, but when it when it
(35:26):
comes to that, when you can't bewho you are, when you can't feel
safe and whole and connected,it's a really, really risky
proposition. And so I think whatyou're saying right now, that I
love is that for somebodylistening, maybe, who is
grappling with wanting adivorce, but really scared, you
(35:49):
know, scared of dating, scaredof finances, scared they'll be
alone forever, scared ofjudgment, any and all of the
above that there is a roughperiod. There's a period of
right? It's still a loss, it'sstill a death, it's still
change, which is hard on oursystem. We have to have a
reintegration, like youmentioned, for our new life and
(36:10):
to being truly alone, becausethere's being alone every day,
logistically, but there's thefeeling, the existential feeling
of knowing that you move throughthe world on your own that can
really hit you in a profoundway. So you have to come to
terms with that. But then thereis just so much there's Healthy
Love, there's boundaries,there's knowing who you are,
(36:32):
there's knowing you can be onyour own. So there's so much
hope for anybody who's feelinglike I want to do this, but I
can't, or I'm scared I can't.
Laura Bowman (36:43):
Where do you tell like, our listener, if some, if
a woman is in that place rightnow, like, where do you start?
Like, what's the first step? Oh,boy,
Unknown (36:52):
as far as, like, deciding you want to divorce, or
the first steps,
Laura Bowman (36:56):
the thing that will, like, pull you through,
like, maybe the thread thatcarries you through, or the
first thing to start investingin.
Unknown (37:03):
I think, just Well, as you know, get a good counselor,
learn more about yourself, get avillage. You know, I could not
have gotten through my divorcewith certain people, with my
parents, my brother, my bestfriends. You know, the people
you could call in the middle ofthe night and just spiral and
talk in circles and just get itout of your system. You know,
(37:25):
brain bomb, it. Do yourresearch. You know, know what
your financials are. And for thelongest time, you know, before I
started looking into that andreally looking at lawyers, and I
paid the bills, but I didn'treally know where all of our
money was, and so I just kind oflearned up on, okay, this is,
this is in this account, andthis is in this account, and
(37:46):
this is how much we owe in thehouse and things like that. And
then I started making a budget,okay, this is how much I can
afford. So when I startedlooking for apartments, I knew
how much I'm like, Okay, I can'tgo over this monthly amount, but
there are places that I canafford to start looking, maybe
get a realtor, but just, justhave people in your corner.
(38:07):
Don't do it alone. And I thinkfor me, I suffered so long in
silence, like I'm in thishorrible marriage, I didn't even
tell some my closest friends.
You know, there was one time wejust moved here from Japan. I
think we were even still jetlagged, and we moved into our
house. And the house we boughtthe house sight unseen. It was a
mess. It needed so much work. Soone of my friends came in from
(38:27):
out of town, and she was helpingme scrape wallpaper and going to
TJ Maxx with me and home goods,and she pulled me aside one
time, and she's like, You guysfight constantly. And I was
like, Yeah, you know, we do,right? And I'm trying to confide
in her, like I still hadn't toldher, Oh, yeah, like a few weeks
(38:48):
ago, he told me he wanted adivorce, and you know, you you
can't, you can't keep it in. Youalso can't internalize these
things for the longest time. I'mlike, Well, this must be my
fault, so I'm the one holdingdown the home home front, and
I'm the person who's stabilizingour entire lives so that he can
get his job done. And I justthought it was me, and he would
(39:12):
ask me, Well, are you depressed?
I'm like, No, I'm not depressed.
I just, I don't, I don't like,I've again with starting the
blog, I needed something more inmy life. And I think once I left
the marriage and kind of gotback on my feet, looking back, I
realized, Oh, I needed somethingelse, and that something else
was my identity, because it wasjust gone.
Colette Fehr (39:34):
Wow, yeah, that's it. Okay. This is so powerful.
And I think not only are peoplegoing to enjoy the book for your
story and your beautifulwriting, but really, just to get
a lot, even if you're not goingthrough a divorce, about the
process as women, particularlyin midlife, of really reclaiming
our identity, being trulyconnected to ourselves at the
(39:57):
core, who we really are, andliving a life that'll. Allows us
to be that, whether it's with apartner or not. So I want to
Heather as we wrap up, can youjust tell everyone how to find
you and how to find your book?
And we'll have this in the shownotes, of course, too.
Unknown (40:13):
Absolutely. So my book is called camouflage, how I
emerged from the shadows of amilitary marriage. You could buy
it on Amazon, Barnes and Noblebookshop, Target, Walmart. You
can check me out on my website.
It's Heather l sweeney.com andI'm probably not a bunch of
socials. I'm probably mostactive on Instagram. That is
writer Sweeney. I have a substack that I'm kind of sort of
(40:38):
writing on regularly, but I'm onblue sky. I'm on Twitter, X,
whatever you want while I'mstill on that. So, yeah, I'm
kind of all over the place. I'mpretty easy to find.
Colette Fehr (40:51):
It's great. It's great. So definitely connect
with Heather after the episodeand grab her book. I really, I
am not one to rave aboutanyone's writing, but I really
do think, I mean, it's true,it's true, Laura,
Unknown (41:06):
it's true.
Colette Fehr (41:08):
Yes, you're really just so talented, and I think
your story is going to impactour listeners and a lot of
people, and give people again,so much hope about what's
possible in our second chapters.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Unknown (41:23):
Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.
And Colette, I can't wait foryour book.
Colette Fehr (41:28):
Thank you. It's feels like it's, it's gonna be
like we're gonna be 90 years oldand doing a new podcast on like,
preparing to die by the time mybook comes out. But eventually
it'll be here. Only five monthsto go. Yes, it'll be here. So
thank you so much again,Heather, so excited for you.
Everyone go grab your copy ofcamouflage. Thank you all for
(41:49):
listening. We hope you got somegreat insights from our couch
today, and we'll see you nexttime. Bye guys. You.
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