Serial Killers on the Loose: Part 2

It sounds like something straight out of a noir film -- an unidentified killer goes on a murder spree and disappears in a clean getaway, taunting the cops before disappearing. Unfortunately, this phenomenon isn't limited to the world of fiction. Listen in to learn more about killers who (so far) vanished into thin air.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,

(00:27):
welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is They call me Bed. You argue that that
makes this stuff they don't want you to know. But
no ordinary episode of stuff they don't want you to know.
I mean, arguably, ever have had an ordinary episode of
stuff they don't want you I haven't seen it. I
haven't heard it. Uh, so this will be another extraordinary episode.

(00:51):
It's different in that we are returning to a topic
we examined in the past at length, the dark, murky
world of crime, specifically homicide, specifically the rarest and perhaps
most well known form of homicide. I want, I really
want to insert that sound effect from Law and Order,

(01:13):
Thank damn, and just imagine the phrase dick wolf uh
blossoming in your head, but not just dick wolves blossoming everywhere. Yeah, yeah,
it could be a person in real life. But we
don't want to mess with your imagination or impose limits
on your creativity. So whatever you think when you're hear

(01:33):
the phrase dick was blossoming in your head, just run wild.
You can write to us about it. We might not
be able to read it on air. We've examined serial
killers in the past, boy have weay, and we are
picking up where we left off in our previous episode
on serial killers Uncaught and otherwise in this episode to
start off, we're gonna do a little bit of review.

(01:56):
I guess you can call it from the last episode.
What did we talk about in that one, Matt Well,
In truth, we've this is like episode four or five
in a way, just because we've covered specific serial killers
and then other serial killers that disappeared or were never apprehended.
So we had the original night stalker that we went

(02:16):
over in some serious depth, which was terrifying. I had
nightmares for a while that the guy was out there
listening to us and then was going to come and
find us. Also unapprehended. Agreed, Yes, the Highway of Tears
another situation where that was one with the truck drivers
in the Native Americans right, yes, in Canada and uh

(02:38):
more serial killer or killers that have not been apprehended there,
and we for a highly of tears. We partnered with
how Stuff Works Auto expert Scott Benjamin, who is quite
the true crime of the Nado, and as Noel mentioned
in our first episode on various uncaught serial killers, killers

(03:00):
who were on the loose and could be alive today,
may even be alive as we're recording this episode. Uh
we uh. We had Christian Sager from Stuff to Blow
Your Mind come onto the show, friend of the show,
and we looked at several different killers. The new Bedford
Highway killer Lisbon Ripper Pedro Lopez, who was I don't

(03:24):
know if you can assign a value, but in terms
of numbers of people killed, he's by far the highest
and the victims that he chose all children. Yeah, what
does it take to earn the nickname the Ripper? I
just you know, can you casually do that? Can I
even all the Ripper? I guess if you you know,
if we're back in lime Wire days, if I ripped

(03:44):
sick beats, does that count? That could count? That could count.
Usually in the case of murder, uh, it's assigned by journalists,
people kind of coin. It's sort of a rush to
like be the one to give the clever name to
by the at large murderer. And that's why there are
all out of the insert geographical location here, stranglers, a

(04:04):
lot of the insert so and so rippers. You ever
wonder about the ones that don't stick? Yeah, some sad
sack journalists that just kind of was really trying his best.
But then so you know that the other one took
off and he was just left in the dirt. Yeah. Yeah,
I think about that too, because I could see the
pitch meetings where they're trying to divide the line between
is this a workable name for a serial killer or

(04:26):
does this sound like a DC supervillain? Yeah, well you
see that in movies a lot too. Or there in
the news room and the grizzled old you know, editor
was like, now we needs something that bleeds and bleeds
it leads. Come on something that will capture them imaginations.
How about bend the ripper. That sounds good. And it
was like, oh, what what about the bone collector? And
they're like, that would work. That's a great I like

(04:47):
the way you're thinking, Darren, But we gotta have a
bone on the scene disembowler. Right, it's such a weird
thing to think about that those are a little exaggerated
about what would happen, very but Yeah, pretty pretty similar
to things that are actually happening while on the streets
there are people being murdered. Well, there's a certain callousness

(05:09):
to this kind of reporting. You can't deny. Well, there's
a callousness I would argue to reporting in general, especially
in the West, because remember how post Nixon. Well none
of us are old enough to remember ride after post Nixon,
but all of us listening now are the facto post Nixon.
As soon as the Watergate scandal happens, then people began

(05:30):
just saying, you know how we make something really sell
attached the word gate to it. Right, It's been happening
ever since. It's been happening ever since. We're apparently in
the midst of stupid water Gate right now. Stupid water
that's what John Oliver is calling. Have you guys heard
about the Oliver effect? That such a sidebar Apparently last

(05:51):
week Tonight, which I think is a great show, has
a noticeable and statistically significant effect on legislation, they call
the Oliver effect. And not just in the US, even
in New Zealand. Man, what was that the one with
the eminem Yeah, where they ripped off it. They did
a they did a copyright free impressed impersonation of Lose

(06:13):
Yourself the instrumental track, and then they had a bunch
of is it offensive to say kiwi or is that
just like say brit Well if if, if it is,
then that's a shame because that's also a really good
key for how they pronounced words. Yes, everything is kind
of like kiwis sorry? Speaking of ripping things off, how

(06:41):
about the Lisbon Ripper? Right? Yes, the Lisbon Ripper was
one of the unfortunately many people who got the ripper
added to their name, and then there was also the
Craigslist Ripper, all the Long Island serial killer. What's troubling
about this is, as we covered these, none of those

(07:02):
crimes or emos haven't tied to a person. Those people
remain apprehended, and that got us thinking what else is
out there? Because we said in the first episode we
only scratched the surface, right, so today we are returning
to the grim, morbid minds of serial murderers. And I
mean just a slight disclaimer. This stuff is disturbing, unsettling,

(07:23):
upsetting stuff and if we get a little light with
it occasionally, I swear to you it's literally just to
keep us from going insane. But if we do have
younger listeners out there, maybe parents who are listening with
the younger ones. I'm not saying don't listen to it.
I'm just saying, use caution, be aware. Uh So, first

(07:44):
things first, we want to define what makes a serial killer.
This is a troublingly controversial definition. The FBI's definition of
what exactly makes a murderer serial killer has fluctuated over
the past decades. We know the term serial killer was
coined in the mid nineteen seventies by a guy named
Robert Wrestler. Uh not spelled in like a fun wrestling

(08:08):
way r E S S l e R, because you know,
I don't know if people would take it seriously if
he was Mr. Wrestler. Yeah, it's like Mr Jack Potts,
though it would be the wrestler, Robbie the Wrestler, the former.
He was the former director of FBI's Violent Criminal Apprehension Program,
and he chose the word serial because people in the

(08:31):
UK and law enforcement called these types of murders crimes
in a series, and because he grew up watching serialized films.
Before this, these criminals were sometimes known as mass murderers
or the act was called stranger on stranger crime, which
doesn't really cover it, because a mass mur could be

(08:53):
anything from an explosive device or war lord that's a
great point, or as free killer who's just like, I'm
mad about something, so I'm gonna take it out on
everyone in this McDonald's. And I guess contained within that
serial killer moniker is a lot of psychology as well,
in terms of how they choose their victims, with their

(09:16):
m o is, how they go about planning these crimes.
So there's much more premeditation involved in being a serial
killer than saying being a mass murder or a spree
killer or any other kind of random or accidental killing. Right,
like so many people who kill someone in the course
of trying to commit another crime successfully bank robbery, burglary,

(09:38):
at a postage stamp fraud. That's the one I keep
going back to. I still can't believe that's a crime.
But we do have these hard and fast definitions or
qualities of serial killers that that we want everybody to
be clear on. It comes from the Crime Classification Manual,
and it says that a serial killer is someone who
a commits at least three murders be in at least

(10:01):
three different locations see encounters some kind of cooling off
period in between murders, so stops murdering for a while
and then And we already know that definition is imperfect
because there are serial killers, Like, how do we define
that location? Right? We are there serial killers who routinely
killed people within their homes. Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy. Uh,

(10:23):
I can not remember his name, but that monster who
invented a torture truck. Also, by the way, if you
check out when you check out the FBI's classification of
serial killers on the interstate, you will rethink rest stops
in this country. We also know there's a difference in
the way that the media portrays serial killers versus the

(10:44):
way these people act. Sure, so you know we've seen,
like I hesitate to use the word favorite, but what
are some of the most memorable serial killers in fiction?
Animal elector right, that's one, Yes, I was in the
main one. I was gonna say, Henry Portrait of a
serial Killer is a good one, pretty like a very

(11:05):
solitary depiction of sort of like this lone wolf serial
killer situation. That's a good one. American Psycho American Psycho
is great. Yeah, and of course psycho, oh yes, and
also psycho. So we know that in real life, serial
killers typically work alone. It is very very rare for

(11:26):
them to cooperate, uh, And they typically kill strangers who
fit the m o of whatever it is they're into,
and they kill for the sake of killing, as opposed
to you know, crime a passion. According to a recent
FBI study, have been approximately four hundred serial killers in
the US in the past century, and they've killed anywhere

(11:50):
from winning five hundred to almost four thousand victims. And
back to the whole aspect of media involved in this,
we've got a depiction is created by the media versus reality.
So first off, you know, let's forget the tired old,
romanticized dexter or hannibal electric tropes. There's no way to
really tell from outward appearances whether someone is or is

(12:14):
not serial killer, but we can use psychology to profile
people a bit from what we know. More than eight
percent of serial killers are male, Caucasian and in their
twenties or thirties, and many criminologists believe serial killers also
experience three very specific behaviors in childhood, known as the
McDonald triad. Mat what's that about, Yes, Noel, the McDonald

(12:37):
triad are three things, bedwdding, arson, and cruelty to animals.
So it's strange to me that these are the three things,
because you you imagine cruelty to animals is kind of
a ramp up to cruelty to humans. Arson shows that
you don't really care about the consequences of an action
like that, possibly you don't care. And then bed wedding

(13:01):
that feels like an outlier to me. So it's more
the degree to which or the age of which someone
stops involuntarily wedding the bed. So it's not bed wedding
in general. That's a very common thing to people when
they're learning to use restrooms in the way that our
society says is correct, it's a bell curve of not
wedding the bed. I think starting out early, and but

(13:24):
you know, if you know, some people will involuntarily h
urinate if we're just gonna be dry medical about it,
well into their teens. And this under the McDonald tread
and bended by McDonald, of course, is to him one
of the primary clues to the problem. We should say that,

(13:46):
like many other things, is controversial because it's always tough
to measure people who don't want to be measured or found,
which even goes back to the earlier statistics. You know
what we said of serial killers or male what that
probably means is eight of apprehended serial killers. And we

(14:07):
do know that there are a few other observable commonalities.
Serial killers are likely to have come from broken damaged
home situations, to have been abused, whether that is through
physical or sexual activity or through neglect like chaining someone
up in an empty room. Uh. And we also know
that you can't really you probably have met somebody at

(14:30):
your school or at your job with people joke about
that person being a serial killer. We have a few
here which I won't name. But the truth of the
matter is there's not a single observable like outward personality
fingerprint for the UH for the proof positive of a
serial killer. As some might be shy and introverted, others

(14:52):
might be super gregarious like Ted Bundy and outgoing. But
the crazy thing is, you know, I think we've talked
about this on the show. For Ted Bunny represented himself
in court and he almost one. He was he was.
We had said this earlier before, uh, Matt I think
you phrased them as people who would charmed the pants
off of you or your your head. But we also

(15:15):
know that they're not created equally. That there may be
a tendency toward higher than average intelligence, but there will
also be people who have lower than average IQ scores
and the i Q of course I can hear people
typing the emails. Now know the i Q test is
not a great measure of intelligence. Have different processes, different motivations.

(15:39):
But we do know that there is another type of
classification system that groups people by their acts and uh
nold do you want to break this down one? You know?
I do? Ben Ronald dam and Stephen T. Holmes attempted
to break down these differences with a classification system called
the homes typology. So the homes type aology groups killers accordingly. Uh.

(16:02):
Serial killers can be act focused um those who kill quickly,
or they can be process focused those who kill slowly. UM.
For act focused killers, simply killing the act of killing
itself is what does the job. That's the whole point,
the whole point um. And within this group, you've got
two types, the visionary and the missionary. Missionary is not

(16:24):
as fun as it sounds well, let's get to it.
Let's get to it. The visionary murders because they hear
voices or have visions that direct them to do so.
Um so that this is you know a typical scenario
where you know the devil made me do it, or
you know you have a voice in your head that's
whispering to you to do horrible acts. Yeah. Yeah, often demonic, divine,

(16:49):
or departed influential relations right like in Psycho Fras that's
a spoiler. But I think Psycho is about seventy old,
so I think we're okay. I actually had an argument
with my girlfriend the other day. She said, it's never
cool to spoil anything, and I'm like, we've been over this,
I've got it's okay. The community says five years at

(17:10):
the Statute of Limitage is like, I don't care. I
just think you want to spoil things because it makes
you sound like you know at all. That sounds like
you guys were ultimately arguing about something else. Probably. But
then there's the missionary murderers, and as you said, Ben,
not as fun as it sounds at all. The missionary
murders because um, he or she believes that they are

(17:30):
meant to get rid of a particular group of people.
Either I will murder every Blockbuster manager. Yeah, that's pretty
much been been accomplished already. Or or there are people
who would say, for instance, um, due to wrongs or
due to my divine understanding this uh specific type of person.
This could be race or ethnicity motivated. Uh. They think

(17:54):
they must be cleansed of the earth, even as we're
gonna see later on things they have to do, monthly cycles,
hair color. Yeah, there's any kind of things that would
fit into this, and it could even fall into the
category of like a vigilante that's like killing you know, doctors,
an abortion clinic or something like that, or anybody that
the scene congregating abortion clinics, so to kind of pick

(18:15):
out and like say that I'm doing the Lord's work,
for example, or to have some sort of like crusade mentality,
Yeah exactly. And then process focused serial killers a little
bit different. These are the ones you typically see in
like the grizzly gruesome film depictions where someone's doing some ritualistic,
gnarly stuff. Yeah exactly. So this would be you know,

(18:37):
for them, the risk of sounding glib, it's about the journey.
They don't the they don't necessarily get off on the
death unless it occurs under a very specific process or workflow.
Would be a sadist, Yeah, a sadist um. And and
they have three different types, just like the visionary missionary.

(18:58):
There are three different types of headonists uh. And then
there is a separate special category called power seeking killers.
So the three types of headonness are aiming for lust, thrill,
and gain. And they're they're pretty self explain to lust
killers derive sexual pleasure from it. Thrill killers get a

(19:19):
kick kind of endorphin rush. Game killers believe they will
profit in some way. And these these are not exclusive categories,
but people tend to fall more into one than the other.
Like a. J. H. Holmes was making money from ripping
people off in his murder mansion, but he was also
clearly into killing people in a myriad of tortuous ways.

(19:42):
Power killers want to play god, to be in charge
of life or death. And many times, um, this would
be the case of you know, the the nurses who
are discovered to have been slowly poisoning patients over decades
and in the past were very hard to catch. Then
you get into classifications of serial killers by their organizational

(20:04):
skills and their social skills, which feels again it all
feels so strange trying to organize the people into the groups,
but it makes a lot of sense when you're hunting
serial killers right as law enforcement. Um, So they can
either be organized or distortion disorganized. And that's when you
look at the type of crime scene, how it's set up.

(20:24):
Then you've got non social or a social Uh, this
is going to depend on whether or not they exclude
themselves from society or whether a society excludes them. And
then uh, the majority of identified serial killers are organized
and non social, so they don't want to hang, but

(20:44):
they do have a plan. They do have a plan,
and they like things to be a very specific way.
And here's some silver lining which is gonna be we
actively went through when when the three of us work
out this episode and tried to find silver linings, ladies
and gentlemen. So one of our first silver linings is
that serial killers are far far less common than the

(21:06):
media and culture might have you believe. The FBI and
other experts estimate that at any given time they're anywhere
from fifty too well three hundred active serial killers in
the US. Stuff to prove those numbers for certain. And
there's one thing for sure, one of the only things
we know. They're out there somewhere beneath the pale moon line,

(21:28):
dancing or sometimes just picking up the mail from the post. Yeah,
don't trust people who go to their mailboxes at night.
That should be archery d very true. And guess what,
we're gonna tell you all about it. Right after a
quick word from our sponsor, here's where it gets crazy.

(21:56):
At the top of the show, we rambled off several
different serial killers remain uncought, hanging out somewhere, maybe they died,
maybe we'll just never find them. But guess what, there
are quite a few more, and they remain uncought today,
or at least their crimes remain unsolved. So so many

(22:16):
of these people out there, we can't cover them all
in a single episode. We're probably going to do a
third one of these at some point, or maybe a
separate show just about crime and serial killers. Oh, that
would be good, or just a specific show on each one.
This doesn't mean that these murderers are necessarily anonymous. In
several cases, investigators are convinced that they have discovered the

(22:38):
identity of a given killer, but did not have sufficient
evidence to make an official or clean conviction. And that's
that's what happens when you're on the side of the
technically speaking to good guys, you have to obey rules
that the others do not have to obey. And in
other cases, a string of murders by an unidentified killer

(22:58):
may actually be the work of another known murderer. And
here's where we get to our first example of serial
killers that remain on the loose Part two. So first
we're going to talk about a killer by the name
of Bible John, which, of getta say, is pretty powerful name.
It sounds like a villain and preacher. Bible John is

(23:22):
believed to have murdered three young women after meeting them
at the Barrowland Ballroom in Glasgow, Scotland between nineteen sixty
nineteen sixty nine. Uh. There was very little doubt that
these murders were all carried out by the same person.
All three victims were women, they'd all been strangled, specifically
with their pantyhose or their nylons. Uh, and they were

(23:46):
all beaten to death. And the name Bible John is
derived from the single suspect in the case. The last
victims shared a taxi with her sister and a man
who said his name was John was quoting from the
Bible at them. But because this technically remains unsolved doesn't
mean they're suspects, right. Several experts believe the Bible John

(24:08):
murders were in fact committed by a known and convicted
serial killer with the much less intriguing name Peter Tobin
So Tobin Um is a convicted Scottish serial killer and
sex offender who as we speak is serving three life
sentences um with what they call over there a whole

(24:28):
life order which is basically like life without the possibility
of parole at HM prison Edinburgh for three murders committed
between in two thousand and six with a very similar
m O and a whole life order. You know, it
sounds like a weird sign on for a series, but
it is. It is something that this government will do

(24:50):
to prevent someone from leaving the prison system in Europe,
in Eastern or in Western Europe at least, by and large,
is much more centered on re abilitation rather than you know,
retribution or using prisoners as cheap labor. Sure, the main
thing in the US, Right, So this is this guy

(25:13):
super messed up. He targeted women who are menstruating, young
women who we would found, who we found at this ballroom,
and he would this is the kind of thing we're
talking about where a serial killer can charm you where
he would meet you meet these women at the bar
and then essentially go home with them or you know,
go off with them to have a private moment or something,

(25:35):
and then he would turn you know, sounds like this
guy is the very definition of a missionary serial killer.
If he was targeting menstruating women, it's like he was
singling them out for what he interpreted to be some
sort of uncleanliness or impurity I suppose, and then you know,
wanted to call them from the population. Yeah, it's a
possibility when you when you get into some of the

(25:57):
rules and laws that you can find in books of
the Bible, like Leviticus or something, if you take those
too seriously, you can get into some dangerous belief and
thought territory there. Oh, and another thing, he took the
handbags of these women. He would like dump all the
stuff out of the handbag and then well, who knows

(26:17):
if he actually took it or if he hit it
or got rid of it or something. Fetishes and relics
and trophies are very common in a lot of serial
killer cases. Luckily he only got the three. But you
can imagine, you know, I'm gone unchecked for long enough time,
you might have found his den and there'll just be
like a pile of handbags. And if and there may
well be and if this Bible John is the same

(26:39):
person as Peter Tobin, what's morbidly fascinating here is that
we may be able to trace the evolution the increasing
sophistication of a serial killer, sort of similar to the
Red Dragon cases uh mentioned in the Animal Lecter series.
This brings his so so technically, just to sum it up, technically,

(27:03):
Bible John remains unconvicted or unapprehended, but a growing number
of investigators convinced that this is actually Peter Tobin. You
just can't prove it, right, because in the nineteen sixties
there was nowhere near the level of technological sophistication when
it came to investigating DNA preserving bodies, et cetera. But

(27:28):
this is not the only example. Yeah, and next we've
got the Oakland County child killer, a k A, sorry
to chuckle. It's just this is kind of fight since
I got like a villain on the tick or something,
the babysitter that just makes me shiver, and I shiver rarely. Yeah,
I know, I see I guess again, I'm doing that
thing where I'm getting light with it because if you don't,
then it's like it's almost too much to handle. Defense mechanist.

(27:50):
Pretty pretty cruel. Um. So the babysitter um concerns serial
killer a serial killer or killers active in Oakland County,
Michigan for thirteen months between February nineteen seventy six and
March nineteen seventy seven. Yeah, and this person or group
is responsible for the murder of four children, two boys

(28:12):
and two girls between the ages of ten and twelve.
So particularly grizzly, and the victims were held captive between
four and nineteen days before all of numbers slain. Their
bodies were always found wearing the same clothes in which
they were last seen, all quote neatly laid out on
the ground in various locations around this place in Michigan,

(28:35):
Oakland County. UM and the babysitter moniker comes from this
process of cleaning the bodies after they were finished with
whatever they were doing with them. Um, in his thought
that it was postmortem, that they were cleaned, like fingernails
clipped and everything. Right, I bet there was no evidence
of sexual assault. There was, Man, I hate even talking

(28:59):
about this. Don't listen to this if you're a kid. Um,
there was tearing specifically on the boys. So yes, So
this was a process killer. It sounds like it. Just
the only reason I say I said that was because
it makes me think of like I think things I've
seen in crime shows where a lot of times the

(29:19):
killers when they when they lay the body out with
such care and precision, they're almost like, you know, trying
to honor the body and so buying it. So I'm wondering.
But but I guess there was sexual motive. Huh. There
appears to be. And when you start looking at the suspects, well, again,
these are suspects that as the Internet has grown and

(29:42):
there's more and more information out there and people can
become a sleuth online, a lot of this stuff has
come to light and also from the parents of some
of the victims. So what what are Can you tell
us a little bit about the suspects. Sure, so one
of them, uh is Christopher Bush? Said, this is this
guy's name. He was the son of a gentleman named

(30:04):
Harold Lee Bush at the time was the executive financial
director of General Motors. Very well to do suspect. Yeah,
a family of well to do people. Um. Let's see.
At the time there was this place called Brother Paul's
Children's Mission, which was located on North Fox Island in

(30:25):
Lake Michigan. So I don't want to get too much
in the geography, but if if you're looking at a
picture of Michigan and you're just looking at the north
nor northern tip of it, if you go a little
bit to the west, that's where North and South Fox
Islands are. And this was a front for an underground
child porn network where all the terrible things that happened

(30:46):
to children within one of those they were occurring on
this island. And there was an investigation into this, this
ring of people who were making child pornography, and this guy,
Christopher Bush, was caught up in it. They commiscated eight
rolls of film from this guy. How old he was
twenty five at the time, so young enough to be
very active, yes, But then you know, he ends up

(31:08):
getting arrested again for some more criminal sexual conduct involving
children with someone with some other dude named Gregory Green.
But where it gets a little crazy here is that
Gregory Green ended up being held on a seventy five
dollar bond. But this guy, Christopher, he got off every
He didn't get out completely, but he got away with

(31:30):
a one thousand dollar bond. And you know, you imagine
having on powerful, rich family maybe that helped out there.
So he was arrested in February of seventy seven, but
the murders continued till March, yes, and there was a sheriff,
like a nearby sheriff department. They got a phone call

(31:50):
that this guy was seen by just a neighbor or
something at a cottage I guess that the family owned
that was quite a bit north of where the family's
main house was. And this person knew that this guy
Bush was not supposed to be around miners, around kids,
and he was apparently hanging out at this cottage with them.

(32:11):
And this was on March nineteen. And here's the thing.
The final victim, Timothy King, went missing from March sixteenth
until March twenty two when his body was found and
what happened to Christopher bush Well Ben According to his
death certificate, this guy died by committing suicide on November twentieth,

(32:33):
nineteen seventy eight, when he was twenty seven years old,
So just about a year after these killings had stopped,
these four killings. And I don't know, it's not weird,
I guess, but his body was cremated and the house
where he lived with his parents was then sold off
very soon after. You can understand why survivors would want

(32:53):
to forget that memory, Yes, even just from the previous
you know times, the things he had gotten into trouble
for right, even if he wasn't the killer of these children.
And he's not the only suspect. No. Next we have
Francis D. Sheldon, who was a well known multi millionaire
actually from an immensely wealthy family who were the sole

(33:14):
owners of North Fox Island. Member of that island, pretty
pretty high up on the hog if you own an island,
No I do not. This is the island that had
brother Paul's children's mission on it that was a front
for a child porn ring. Oh my gosh, interesting gikes.
Sheldon fled the country to the Netherlands to avoid charges
of sexual misconduct to adolescent boys from Port her On

(33:38):
told family members that Francis Sheldon had molested and photographed
them on this island. Evidence taken from child porn magazines
showed children with a background identified as being in the
North Fox Island, right, verifying that the boys had been
to the island. And there were reports of Sheldon's death
that surfaced in um and a Michigan warrant for him

(34:01):
was canceled in May of nineteen nine seven, with state
police reporting quote exceptional clearance, suspect is dead and cannot
be prosecuted, but was obviously involved, right. I mean, that's
you're starting to see a picture here of perhaps a
group of people who were, you know, doing terrible things

(34:24):
to children on an island and then possibly which is
Pedophile rings are unfortunately often dismissed as crackpot conspiracy theories,
but there is hard evidence that they have existed. One
needn't look no further than Jimmy Saville and wonder which
of his current living friends will be posthumously exposed as

(34:48):
yet another monster. Just a side note, and most importantly
this ties into a future episode. No spoilers. Uh, there
are people who are concerned that Sheldon and some of
his associates did not actually die, but that they switched identities.
And we will have an upcoming episode that looks at

(35:14):
how possible plausible or impossible implausible it is to fake
one's death. It's gonna be fascinating. I can't wait for
you to hear it. Over the years, several lawsuits have
been filed against the Oakland County Prosecutor's Office by the
victims families. Most of these come from a guy named
Barry King, the father of Timothy King, and deal with

(35:34):
what are called Freedom of Information Act or f o I,
a request because he feels like he has been denied
the information regarding the Timothy King case, specifically by law enforcement. Yeah,
pertaining to the suspects that we outlined there. And just
a side note this, If you want to learn more

(35:56):
about this, I would caution you away from it just
because it is a dark, dark used to go. But
if you do want to um, there are places you
can find information. Katherine Broad, who is one of the
sisters of the victims. Uh, Timothy King was her brother.
She's got a website Katherine broad b r O a

(36:16):
d dot blog. There's a documentary called Decades of Deceit
that was produced by the King family. And there's a
Reddit user named o c c K Throwaway that made
these four really long in depth posts where you can
their links galore there and you can just follow the
rabbit hole to your own insanity. And speaking of insanity

(36:37):
and rabbit holes, let's continue a bit further. Uh, Well,
I believe you will like this moniker, the Freeway Phantom.
You know, it's a shame that it went to such
a monstrous person because I would love to, you know,
have a friend known as the Freeway Phantom because they
were good at a smuggling course, like in smoking the

(36:57):
Bandit or something. Yeahor they ghost rode the whip to perfection.
You know, there could be a whole phantom squad of
phantom cadre. Well, here's what happened in this case. An
unidentified assailant abducted, sexually, assaulted, and strangled six female youths
in Washington, d C. From April of seventy one through

(37:18):
September seventy two. The victims were all African American girls.
They were all between the ages of ten and eighteen.
The phantom left hand written notes too, and statements from
victims before their deaths heavily implied the killer was a
white male, and it was very, very hard to tract this.
In these cases, allegations of police UH not putting in

(37:43):
enough effort repeatedly surfaced. We saw some similar things like
this with the Atlanta UH strangulations of child murders. Seems
racially motivated, possibly right for which in Atlanta Wayne Williams
is currently incarcerated. So this is a case where investigators
feel like they had the person they traced. This is

(38:08):
very grizzly stuff. They they started looking at people who
would have similar m os. Right, That's the first thing
you do, has is there any legal Is there anybody
in the legal system that has been proven to already
have either the wherewithal or the motivation to commit these
sorts of horrendous acts. And they immediately gravitated towards members

(38:31):
of a group called the Green Vega Game. Law enforcement
officials involved with the case believed that four men who
were involved in hundreds hundreds of rapes from nineteen sixty
nine to nineteen seventy three were implicated in the child murders,
but they weren't convicted, and as he said, they were
collectively just four guys collectively responsible for these crimes in

(38:54):
d C and in Maryland, and they were also involved
in abductions. So the police individually interviewed these gang members
and then they visit a prison in Lorton, Virginia, where
the gang members were serving sentences um due to unrelated convictions.

(39:15):
Right during the interviews, this is weird, one gang member
initially implicated another member and said, well, this guy said
he did it, and here's how he told me he
did it. And the thing is, uh, both inmates were
serving time at this same prison, and the one who
was giving the info said, well, I'll tell you the

(39:36):
whole story, but only if I remain anonymous. So he
identified the inmate who told him the story, the time
and the location of the crime, and certain specific details
which were not provided to the public, but which were
known only as far as the cops could figure out
to the detectives and to the freeway phantom. So the

(39:58):
information checked out. So they found their guy, right, the
guy that this one person they interviewed pointed a finger
at right. Yeah, but that's that's like Um, it's not
quite a smoking gun, but that is very close to
smoking gun, where you know, if if just the investigators
and then right, because there's no you can't really count

(40:20):
on somebody wild guessing specific. Here's the problem though, here's
why he's still on the list. Because they had amassed
all this evidence and they were ready to move, but
then something happened. The case files were lost and then
like everything gone, poof, poof, goodbye. How does that even happen?

(40:43):
Isn't that somebody was inside right just in the seventies. Yeah,
I mean, you know, it's still all paper, all paper,
so I mean they you know, and I'm sure they
have duplicates on some level, but it wouldn't be that
much of a stretch too have them find their way
into a fire of some sort. But it sounds like

(41:06):
intentional to me, is I guess? Is what I'm getting at?
You know, because all of the files, you know, especially
when you consider how much paperwork they had to generate
in the course of this kind of investigation, people with
you know, stacks and stacks of rap sheets alone, unrelated
and they all know each other and they're like children.

(41:28):
So of course, the community to this day doesn't buy that.
This gets me starting to think about serial killer cults. Yeah, yeah,
he is. Well, I don't want to think about that,
you guys, more nightmare stuff for me. Well, if they exist,
they don't want you to think about it either. Good
for they put hair on your chest, No they don't.

(41:48):
You're smooth, smooth, baby like chest. I don't want them
to put peep in my bed because then I might
be a serial killer. Yeah, so that's that's what happened
with that one. But we have next. Can I say
this one because I just love saying yeah, yeah, give
it a shot. The Maniac of Nova Spiritsk, the Maniac
of Nova Speirsk. So this is, uh, this is an

(42:11):
interesting case. This is more recent. There were seventeen women
murdered between two thousand six very specific m o in
a town in Russia called The victims were found on
the outskirts of town. They were mutilated in decapitated dismembered

(42:33):
symbols were carved into their bodies, and in every case
their hearts were removed. Often this disfigurement was so extreme
that law enforcement could not identify the bodyans fingerprints, gone
dental in any any teeth, probably knocked out, tattoos, scraped
off the skin. Okay, they had a few things in common.

(42:56):
They were all women, they were all locals, and they
were all prostitutes. In two thousand and six, for some reason,
the killings just stopped, and that is something that's extraordinarily rare.
In the case of the babysitter, you know, we saw
a very short thirteen month period, right with four known victims,
but that that leads us to believe that if circumstances

(43:22):
hadn't changed, those killings would have continued. So it's very
strange for this stuff to stop. The murderer disappeared, and
this led police to believe something that there are usually
three common things that happened, three common explanations when a
serial killer or a series of murders stops occurring, and

(43:42):
the police will always assume, well that killers maybe moved,
or they've died, or have been arrested on another crime, right,
And in this case, they still continued to hunt for
the killer, and they found really interesting series of suspects.
Um In two thousand and fifteen, the police arrested a

(44:06):
cab driver by the name of Alexei Ivanov on suspicion
of the murders um He instead confessed to a series
of unrelated murders, also all women. Yeah, I mean, I
guess where there's smoke, there's fire. So what we're saying
here is that apparently Nova's Bearrisk is a is a
pretty pretty tough neighborhood. You know. Can you imagine that

(44:29):
you're searching for one serial killer, which is already so rare,
and in the process you pick up another guy. It's like, well, yeah,
I killed of course I killed a series of not
not those not those though, those aren't those aren't mine.
It's probably like one of those small towns in like
British cops shows where there's a serial murderer like a week,
you know, right, Yeah, that's the weirdest thing about Suspension

(44:50):
of Disbelief. Yeah, you know, it's a small town. Everybody
still leaves their doors unlocked, despite the fact that about
once every year or so someone kills twenty people. Not
only that, like you can even go further where it's
like with Scooby Doo, like are they traveling around and
that show? I mean, I guess they are. They're kind
of on tour, right, are they a band? It's not

(45:11):
clear what they do a whole lot of time on
the mythology. No, it's been a while for me. Yeah,
at least with jabber Ja, Like they were definitely a band,
you know, jabber Jar was totally like a one to
one of Scooby Doo. They solved that they had like
they had the talking animal with a speech impediment, even
like I think Dude War and Ascott and Jabbraga too. Anyway,
we digress back to the grizzly stuff. You see what

(45:32):
I'm trying. I'm trying to d I'm trying to derail
this a little bit because this is just so darn upsetting.
But we will sally forth. There was a different suspect. Yeah,
so there was, in fact another suspect. In sixteen, police
arrested a former cop by the name of Avengly Choopliss
Mixlean forgive my utter garbage pronunciation there, I'm doing the
best I can. Um. This individual was suspected of the murders,

(45:58):
though he had yet to be evicted. Um. And here's
a little interesting, twisty side note. I'm not going to
say his name again, tell you that right now? What
couldn't call him? Mr T. Mr T. Not to be
confused with the mr T. This is the Russian msr T.
For the purposes of our show, Mr T was arrested
by Russia's Ministry of Internal Affairs, which I guess means

(46:19):
that he was under investigation as a dirty cop potentially
um not local law enforcement, right, So that's I think
that's the thing. So the trial laundry internally exactly exactly,
but on a federal level, on a federal level exactly.
So the trial UM is in fact moving forward. And
while the ministry is almost certain that this is their guy, um,

(46:42):
he has yet to be convicted, even though DNA was
found on some of the prostitutes, which he explains as
a result of him spending a lot of time with
prostitutes while on dutyous. Yeah, one of the one of
the way he explained it is, um, no, I have
to have my irritual eat. You know, I have to
know who is going where, who was driving drunk? I

(47:04):
go find drunk driver. Maybe he gives me a bribe,
skip some paperwork. So he painted it as sort of
his unofficial job duties, right, deep deep cover as it were,
apparently right, and then at one point he confessed he
and he said that he did the symbols on purpose.

(47:25):
And this was actually in a brutal calculation. This was
actually pretty smart on his behalf, because if he was
a police officer, he knew how to hide evidence or
he should have. Um, and he wanted the murders to
look a cult or satanic in nature. And he said
he wanted to, you know, have a red herring for
the police. But then later he recanted and he said, no,

(47:49):
I did that under pressure. If a Vegni, Chuplinsky or
Mr T is convicted, he would be another example of
a killer who appeared to get away only to be
captured months, years, or even decades later. And this lets
us end on a little bit less of a bleak note,
because these sorts of killers, well they may get away

(48:12):
for a long time, are often apprehended one way or another.
And we'll tell you about just a few after a
word from our sponsor, and we're back, you know, on

(48:33):
a site note, just to keep it light, which I
think is a good move. Um. One thing that always
got to me about Scooby Doo is how it's so
rarely turned out to be supernatural, always bothering me. Well, no,
I mean, in the original series it was never supernatural.
It was always something, always old man from the Honored
Amusement Park or whatever. It wasn't until like the twenty

(48:55):
one Ghosts of Scooby Doo with Vincent Price, where it
was there were definitely ghosts in that one. There were
other iterations of the show where there were supernatural elements,
but the original series. And you think they'd eventually catch
on and stop getting spooked, or at least start discriminating
against their profiling old guys, old white guys, you know

(49:16):
what I mean, sometimes women. Maybe it was a cautionary tale,
uh for you know, old white guys for kids. Speaking
of older white guys. Vans and vans. Although I would
still drive a custom van like that, I don't care
about the mileage. I want one of the Wizard on it.
I want one that's decked out like a studio apartment,

(49:38):
you know, but with windows so people don't think I'm
a serial killer. I want to torture rack in mind,
you want to torture wreck dude, We should make a convoy. Sorry.
That was then when I took taking it light a
step too far. That's what happens when keeping it light
goes awry. Uh So, here's someone who things would arrived

(49:58):
for this character. If you read about serial killers, then
you probably read a few years back about a killer
known as b t K, which stands for buying torture killed.
This is a self appointed nickname. Uh. This person was
actually named Dennis Radar and from nineteen seventy four to nine,

(50:20):
well from four to nineteen seventy nine, he had killed
ten people in total, collected items, totems, fetishes, relics, trophies,
I guess the best way to say it, from each
murder scene. And he wrote numerous letters taunting the police.
But then he underwent a dormant period. And here's the

(50:40):
weirdest part on Dennis Dennis's Radar's career as a serial killer.
If he had not been drawn back by apparently fame
and ego, then he would have been fine. And he
would have continued working at the church that he worked at,
and he something veterinarian's office, yeah uh, and just eventually

(51:04):
make a deathbed confession or be something. His family would
find all this stuff after his death. But he could
not resist writing another series of taunting letters about how
he fully planned to commit another murder. In two thousand
and four because he was inept, he sent correspondence that
was easy to trace. Uh. He actually at one point
asked law enforcement if it was possible for them to

(51:27):
trace him based on you know, sending uh like a
three point five disc. You know, everybody's younger in the crowd. Um.
If you look at the save button on your Microsoft
Word that's an image of those three point five discs,
which I think people will forget over time. But they said, yeah,

(51:49):
there's no way we can do that, and they totally did,
and they found the address and there was a matter
of time before he found him. He didn't fit a
lot of the supposed profiles and serially killers. That's why
he can't find them. He was a family man, and
it was a family man who had a lot of
internal issues. But he is locked up, is under the jail.

(52:09):
This is not the UK. They don't require a whole
life order. He is going to die in jail. And
then there were other people like the Grim Sleeper, Lonnie
David Franklin Jr. Believed to responsible for least ten murders
in an attempted murder in Los Angeles. Sounds like a
wrestling name, the Grim Sleeper. It really does really does,

(52:30):
like he teams up with the undertaker or something, and
he has a special hold. Yeah, that's his signature sleeper hold.
And now we can now we can see stuff like
that because he is also apprehended. He is also never
getting out of jail. The point we're making is that
these killers do get caught. This is not a bleak,

(52:51):
hopeless story in many cases, and with just the cases
we've looked at now, it provides us more questions than
it does answers. Right, So what happens to these folks,
the unapprehended ones both from part one and part two, Well,
we know that some of them are just taken out
because they're arrested for something else, and they're sitting in

(53:13):
a prison cell somewhere doing time for burglary or you know,
whatever other smaller crime they committed, or even maybe a
single murder or something. We also know that with technology
advancing the way it is for forensic science, it's more
difficult for these guys to hide somewhere and do what

(53:34):
the bt K killer did and just live with a
family somewhere else in the world. Eventually, if you messed
up one time committing a murder or one of these
hor blacks, you will probably get caught. And and you know,
a lot of these people because several of the things
we talked about, we're in the sixties and seventies. A

(53:57):
lot of them have died and will probably never be caught.
It's possible. Yeah, what about Zodiac, He's still out there.
If Zodiac is still out there, then is infirmed. Yeah, yeah,
then he might not even know who the killer is
at this point, because yeah, it's a scary thing. A
lot of what you're talking about reminds me of the

(54:17):
show The Keepers on Netflix. If you haven't seen it
and you like true crime, it's worth your time. Is
it a documentary or it is a documentary? If you
know this, this concept raises an interesting disturbing is a
better word of disturbing question? If someone's like that is discovered,
is it prosecuting the same person, Oh, someone with dementia

(54:40):
that doesn't even know anymore? Something like let's say someone
was convicted ironclad. We know they did it of several
murders in the nineteen sixties, but now they're in their
late eighties. And it's sad to say, but that that
it reminds me of what's going on with Bill Cosby.
You know, I'm not I'm not a the doctor. I

(55:00):
can't diagnose the man. But when you read before all
this came out and he was on some late night shows,
he did show signs of not being fully they're mentally
and you get the sense that he doesn't entirely comprehend
what's going on with all of the accusations. I don't know,
I mean, did he just having witnessed dementia firsthand? I

(55:22):
remember when I saw him on early on before all
this came out. Um, he was on one of the
late shows, and it was just kind of a little
bit sad because he just did not seem like he
quite understood what was going on, and he wasn't like himself.
So I'm wondering if that's a similar situation where anyone
who gets justice it's not going to be as satisfying,

(55:46):
perhaps because the person who did the crimes maybe is
not aware that what they've done anymore. Those philosophical areas
where is punishing the body of the thing the person
that did these things worth it even if it can't
comprehend well, I would also say, you know, one of

(56:08):
the one of the at the very least equally crucial
factors here is closure is absolutely happened, right And speaking
of closure, we do have conclusions. So yes, unapprehended serial
killers are out there, according to FBI estimates, fifty to
three d in the U s alone. Right now, that's

(56:28):
a hell of a margin. But that also goes into
you know, the definitions of a serial is the famous
hitman hitman the iceman that qualifies a serial killer because
it was his profession, Right, where do we draw the line? Luckily,
these sorts of killers, despite the wild estimates, the hyperbole sensationalism,
are extremely rare. But there are real life monsters and

(56:51):
in the vast majority of cases you will not know
if you walk by one on the street. You might
have you know, it's a very real thing that people report.
People believe in hunches, right, intuitions, uh spider's senses. But
even that, and that is not not proven to uh

(57:12):
to work, because then we would just have people who
are detecting these human monsters read it would be amazing
at it. Yeah, and and and we've got to be
fair to the jerks of the world. Just being a
jerk doesn't mean that someone is a murderer. Or a
danger to society. We cannot stress how important that is. However,
if you do know of or if you do know

(57:33):
of someone that you suspect might be actively doing something,
you can and should report those suspicions. And this, you know,
this is something that that sounds very televised, right. It
sounds like the script for some some true crime drama, right,

(57:54):
some law and order type thing. But what would you do?
What would you do if your neighbor who was not
an unpleasant person one day went on vacation quote unquote,
and then you saw his car and it was suspicious activity,
and then you read about people disappearing. You know, I

(58:18):
know I've been afraid to say anything. All right, I
told you I'm gonna move, Okay, just be cool. But
the jokes aside, ladies and gentlemen. The the truth of
the matter is that there's a very thin line between
paranoia and actual evidence in reporting it. Because we've all
we've all seen this before when there is an active,

(58:40):
high profile serial killer, like in that movie was Summer
of Sam about Sam Berkowitz. Um in that in that film,
one of the things that happened was that law enforcement
and just like in Zodiac cases was inundated with false reports.
Some people just wanted attention, So it's tough. But it
is true that with all the personal data being shared

(59:03):
between whomever you pay your phone bill too, wherever you
get your driver's license, wherever you pay your taxes, and everybody,
when whatever social media you know you'd use, it seems
more and more likely that previous on previously unidentified serial
killers could eventually become a thing of the past. These
aren't pioneer days where you could just go through the

(59:24):
territories killing as you please. However, we can't forget that
in some cases these killers function and positions of power,
and they're able to influence the mechanisms meant to apprehend them, like, uh,
like the police officer that Noel mentioned. Yeah, that is
a huge point here that terrifies me, especially when there

(59:47):
are multiple people in power that are working together. And
one thing that Yeah, one thing that startles me too
is how often a string of serial murders might not
get reported outside of local news. Is that cooperation or
is that just police with the best of intentions trying
to prevent panic. Yeah, and something just isn't newsworthy enough

(01:00:08):
to be run on a you know, from another major source,
and how do you decide that? Does it go down
to the name. Did you guys see that they're remaking
Maniac Cop? What is that? You never seen Maniac Cop?
It's like a like a franchise from the eighties where
the murderer is a cop. He's the maniac cop like Vigilante. No, no, no,

(01:00:31):
He's just a maniac. He's a unhinged lunatic um with
some Jason Vorhees esque uh supernatural abilities. Nicholas Winding Reffin
who did the much malign Neon Demon, which I quite enjoyed,
and uh Drive and um, you know Valhalla Rising and
Bronson and all that. He's he seems to be going

(01:00:53):
down the schlocky road a little further these days, and
this is definitely no exception. So I'm looking forward to that.
You guys want to shoutouts, I think it's time chat
at corners. Our first shout out goes out to Shannon,
who says, hey, guys, on the topic of UFOs, forgive

(01:01:13):
me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you've covered
the cash Landrum incident. I only just heard about it
myself today, and I think you'd find it fascinating. Well,
thank you so much, Shannon. I'd have never heard of this. Ben,
have you heard of this? Yeah? Yeah, this is one
of the only uf Well, this is one of very
few UFO cases that actually resulted in litigation in the

(01:01:35):
nineties in the US, people insisted that they not only
saw something multiple witnesses, but that it damaged their health.
What where was this? So this occurred in Dayton, Texas.
I think that's a I think that's a really interesting
topic for us to delve into because we do have

(01:01:55):
a pretty solid, solid, solid mass of court cases. So
thank you so much for writing Inshin And that's an
excellent suggestion. Who's next? Whale Next? We have a shout
out for Chiara says hey, Matt and Ben and Nol.
Actually Nol's not on here, but that's okay. I don't

(01:02:16):
hold it against you. Kiara, who hails from Texas. Um
She says, I am writing this. Who bring to your
attention the recent computer attack nicknamed ransomware. I think it
was actually called want to Cry And ransomware is the
type of the type of is where that holds your
data hostage and you have to pay out in bitcoin.
In order to get it back. UM. Anyway, as it

(01:02:38):
is sufficiently frightening and seems to have come out of
absolutely nowhere, there's no doubt that you've already caught wind
of it, but I think it couldn't hurt to provide
you a request. The new ransomware virus essentially what I
would call and evil blue screen computer malware virus that's
been crippling average computer users, but particularly companies and corporations
by overtaking computer systems and blocking users access to their
files and search engines, essentially acting in the way a

(01:03:00):
blue screen would, rendering the computer useless UM being impassable
unless the victim of the virus pays three bitcoins to
remove it the equivalent of around seven thirty six thousand
dollars American So explanation, the everyday blue screen, and formally
referred to as the blue screen of death, is a

(01:03:21):
protection fall initiated by Windows in the case that the
operating system collapses. UM. What the virus does essentially mimics
that function with one key difference. It sees his access
to every file and every computer function until the ransom
is paid. Yikes. Uh. The current theory is that at
least one of the perpetrators behind this is a former
Windows employee, and I know that Windows actually patched this.

(01:03:42):
They caught it pretty early and so a lot of
people were spared it, but it definitely did rereak some
havoc um. She says, she's anxious to hear what we
have to say about it, and would also like to
give condolences to all the hospitals, colleges, businesses, banks, railway
systems and absolutely everyone who is victim of this virus
in any way. It can't be easy. I agreed, that's
a pretty brutal. One really interesting thing here to me

(01:04:06):
is that if you're going to be paid in bitcoins
for ransomware like this, even though it's a cryptocurrency and
it's protected in a lot of ways, it is trackable.
So at any point, like they know, investigators know exactly
what accounts the bitcoins will be paid to, and they
can monitor them in real time, and as soon as

(01:04:28):
someone tries to take those bitcoins out and transfer them
into cash in some way or some usable form of currency,
you're going to know exactly where it went. So I
don't I don't know that, I don't understand the logic
behind it. But maybe there's a there's like a key
there that I'm missing. I mean, maybe there's some sort
of like VPN ESQ way of redirecting, you know, the
digital trail, or maybe there is a yeah, there's a

(01:04:52):
secrecy parameter. I I think, uh, I think your concept
of this being to some degree and inside job, and
that the perpetrator may have used something they learned internally
to wreak this havoc. I think that's fascinating. I'd like
to delve into it. I'm also tempted to agree that
there would be there would have to be a way

(01:05:14):
for the money to be laundered somehow, otherwise no one
would ask for that currency. And a cryptocurrency has several
advantages over more orthodox or established forms of currency, so
that'd be a good one to dive into. And uh,
you know, I think it speaks very highly to KR's
character that she took the time to give her condolences

(01:05:37):
to the organizations and individuals affected by this, So thank
you for writing in. Our final shout out of the
date comes from Trent, and Trent says, Hello, guys, a
top Oh this was I thought this is pretty interesting one.
He didn't say that. That's me. Hello guys. The topic
I thought of when recently listening to your podcast on
the placebo effect. It was stated in the podcast that

(01:05:59):
a severe burn victim would not benefit from a placebo.
I would have to disagree. I've heard all my life
of the power of someone talking the fire out of
a burn. Manly used this as a pain relief. It
is a secret that can only be passed from man
to woman or woman to man. The two cannot be
blood related. Check out info into the fox Fire books.

(01:06:21):
I was told that my great grandfather was able to
save a child at a hospital that had been burned
over a large part of his body. This may not
be a placebo in the original context, but it is
a case of how powerful the mind can be. Good luck.
So from you know as an armshare folklore's this is fascinating.
The idea of tulking the fire out of a burn.

(01:06:42):
I read a lot, maybe too much, and I have
not read about this. There is a fox Fire folklore
series and perhaps it is mentioned in there, in which
case I am going to return to it. Um. Thank
you so much, Trenth. These are all excellent suggestions and
we appreciate your time. So thanks to Kiara, Shannon and Trent.

(01:07:03):
And this concludes ours but not our show. As a
matter of fact, the most important part of the show
is occurring as soon as this recording ends. That's your
part right to us. Let us know what you think.
Do you believe that you have encountered something like an
active serial killer? Is there a story in your neck

(01:07:26):
of the Global Woods that has not been reported as
we see a lot of serial killer reporting tends to
focus here on the United States. Let us know. You
can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, where we
are some variation of conspiracy stuff. And if you don't
want to do any of that stuff and you want
to hide away from the social media, you can send
us a discreet email. We are conspiracy and how stuff works.

(01:07:50):
Doc three