November 12, 2025 • 20 mins
Five years ago, Dr Catriona Wallace drank ayahuasca for the first time - expecting enlightenment but instead meeting her shadow. What followed was seven hours of confronting ego, identity, and the parts of herself she’d spent years avoiding.
In this bonus episode, I sit down with Dr Catriona Wallace to explore how her experiences with plant medicine completely reshaped the way she leads, tells the truth, and understands her purpose.
Catriona shares how facing her darkest parts helped her release control, redefine success, and lead with greater authenticity and courage.
Just a quick note - nothing you’ll hear in this episode is medical or legal advice, and we’re definitely not suggesting anyone try anything that’s illegal where they live. Think of this as an open conversation, not a recommendation.
Catriona and I discuss:
- The unexpected transformation that came from Catriona’s first ayahuasca experience
- How confronting ego and identity shifted her leadership style
- Why she believes truth-telling is the foundation of authentic leadership
- The powerful reframe from “What’s my purpose?” to “What is needed of me?”
- How plant medicine taught her the importance of surrender, service, and alignment
KEY QUOTES
“Seven hours of ayahuasca is like seven years of psychotherapy.”
“Instead of asking, ‘What’s my purpose?’, I now ask, ‘What is needed of me?’”
Connect with Dr Catriona Wallace on Instagram, LinkedIn, and via her website.
Check out her book Rapid Transformation for more on how to embrace change through technology and leadership.
If you haven’t listened to my full conversation with Catriona - where she opens up about leading with authenticity, standing firm in the face of sexism, and the now-famous moment she walked away from a million-dollar investment because she refused to compromise who she is. You can find that here.
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And then it was I'm ego driven, I'm reputation, folks,
my identity is all I care about. I'm disconnected from
my kids. And it was just like Bang Bang mag.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Five years ago, doctor Katrina Wallace had iahuasca for the
first time, but instead of enlightenment, she met her shadow.
Seven hours of confronting ego control and the parts of
herself she'd spent years avoiding. That experience cracked something open,
(00:30):
not just personally but as a leader. And in this conversation,
Cat shares how plant medicine reshaped the way she thinks
about power, truth telling, and purpose, and how learning how
to let go fully can sometimes be the most transformative
decision you'll ever make. Oh and if you haven't listened
(00:50):
to my main interview with kat, go back and listen
to that one first. There's a link to that in
the show notes. And just a quick note before we
dive in this episode, nothing bill here is medical or
legal advice, and we're definitely not suggesting anyone try anything
that's illegal where they live. Think of this as an
open conversation, not a recommendation.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Okay, on with the chat.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber. In your book Rapid Transformation, your journey with
Psychedelics features really heavily, and I just I found it
(01:39):
absolutely fascinating to hear your experiences, which I think from
memory started about five years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Is that about right?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That's right?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah, what prompted you to move into this area?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So I'd been sort of walking let's call it a
shamanic path for about thirty years. I did some initial
training when I was in my late twenties. I would say,
I'm an animist, and an animist is someone who believes
that sort of nature is God, and there's there's spirits
and in all things, spirits and trees, spirits and rocks,
spirits and animals, et cetera. But because I had this
(02:12):
massive career, this big corporate career, and so you have
a listed company. As much as I wanted to go
and sit with plant medicine and something like Ayahuascar, I
felt it's probably not appropriate because I don't know if
I'm going to radically change, or I'm going to find
something in myself, or I'm going to find a new
vision and come back and say, hey, I don't want
to run the company anymore. And it was on just coincidentally,
(02:34):
the day that I sold my company in twenty twenty,
that afternoon happened to be the afternoon of my first
Ayahuscar ceremony.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Wow, tell me what that experience was like, that very
first experience.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah. So i'd been called to Ayahuascar for ten years
and we use this in the psychedelic realm, this calling.
It's like, oh, I'm curious about that. Oh, here's a
video that's just popped up. Oh, I've got a friend
who's just you know when it keeps coming. And so
for ten years, so I was putting it off, putting
it off, putting it off. But now I knew it
was time to sit. And what I knew about Aoascar
is that it's made as a brew in the Amazon jungle.
(03:12):
It's made from the Ayahuascar vine and the vine is
sort of mashed up and boiled up, and it is
a purgative, so it will be an inhibitor of the
enzyme that eats up DMT in your system. So humans
naturally create DMT in our system, like when we're born,
when we give birth, orgasm, and death at times when
(03:34):
there's a big release of DMT in the human self,
but we have enzymes that eat it up. So the
ayahuascar inhibits that enzyme and creates a purge, which is
the releasing of energy, which is also may come as
like a vomit. And then the second part of the
Ayahuascar brew is a plant called chakruna, and chakruna has
very high levels of DMT and its leaves, so Chakuna ayahuascar.
(03:58):
You boil it up together and for a couple of days.
There's a lot of prayer and ceremony that goes into
this very sacred brew, and they call it the Grandmother
Medicine or the Mother Medicine. It ends up being quite
a thick, dark brown, quite stringent thing to drink like.
It's quite a difficult taste, which I think is all
part of it. And so I went to this. I
(04:18):
went to this because we go, oh, I can get
addicted to hiauascar. I said, I don't think so, did
you not think you want to be drinking that very often?
That is really hard to get down? So I sold
the business is two o'clock in the afternoon five o'clock,
changed my clothes. Seven o'clock. I'm sitting in this ceremony
about to drink this medicine with ten other people that
(04:40):
I didn't know, with a guide that would call a
miestro if it's a male or a maestro, it's a female,
and really not knowing what I'm getting myself into. And
at the time I drink it, I start getting all
of these fears. It's like, oh, what am I doing here?
And I have to share a tent with some people
I don't know. That's weird. And maybe my director's trying
(05:03):
to call me because you know, we sold the company today.
Oh shit, you know again, I've selfishly taken time for
myself and not my kids and anyway, So I was
just in this like negative space and medicine hadn't even started.
And then my intention of going in was, hey, I
would finish this chapter of the tech business. Now I
wonder what a new vision is for me, and I'm
(05:24):
feeling a little bit blocked in knowing what's next for me.
So that was my intention. I'd like a vision and
I'd be blocked. So as we say, the medicine will
always deliver what you asked for. And so what I
learned was you can't get the vision without removing your
blockages first. So as the medicine started, it was like, oh,
(05:45):
I feel really sick, Like I feel really nauseous. And
then it was relentless seven hours. I'm ego driven, I'm
reputation focus, my identity is all they care about. I'm
money focused, I'm disconnected from my kids, I tell lies
at times, I'm a lousy friend. And it was just
like bang bang bang. And I describe it in the
(06:07):
book is Man. I was in the washing machine of hell.
And then when I think it couldn't get any worse,
it was like the floor dropped out and I was
in the dungeon of Hell. And then the floor dropped
out and I was a trapdoor of the dungeon of Hell.
It was awful. It was the most awful experience. So
essentially what I've done is I traveled in to the
shadow realm of myself. What are all the shadows I have?
(06:29):
What are all the darkness that I have now become
in this life that I'm living running a company, trying
to build this business. And it wasn't that I was
a terrible person in real life. He was a super
cool person in real life, but these were alive in
me and they were really uncomfortable. And the way Ayahuascar
works is once once you stop fighting, I'm like, oh no,
(06:49):
I'm not I'm not ego driven. You get sicker and
secrets and go, oh fuck I am ego driven, Like yeah, oh,
and then once you realize it, then it's like it
all out to a bucket, and we say, like Aiahuascar,
seven hours of Ayahuascar is like seven years of psychotherapy.
So it's literally you're removing that behavior, that energy from
(07:13):
your body as you purge it out. So it's not
like a vomit like you've drunk a bottle of vodka.
You've got gastick. It's like a oh, I want this
out of me, So out it comes and time and
time again. And so when I finished the ceremony, it
was like, man, that was the worst experience of my life.
That was horrendous. And I looked around and everyone was
(07:33):
smiling and they were bright, and you know, someone had
met their dead grandmother and other people had just been
filled with light and joy, and other people had had
this brilliant light show. And I was like oh, what's
wrong with me? I just had the worst experience, and
so I said, right, I'll never do this again. That
was bad, it almost killed me. Not going to do
it terrible.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
And then well what happened because you did do it again.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I didn't do it again the next night. So I
went to sleep and still miserable in the morning. I
went down and saw the female guy the next morning,
and I was crying and saying, oh, I can't do
this again, like this is so bad, like I hadn't
realized what a bad person I am. So yeah, I
can't do it. I won't live through another night, like
I don't want to do it, like I'm just so sad.
(08:16):
And she said, look, why don't you go and write down,
Just go and journal and see if what the medicine
showed you, if there's anything like that's you know, kind
of resonates with you. And I said, yeah, okay. So
I went away, very miserable and small and wrote, oh,
ego driven, Yeah, identity attached, Oh god shit, yeah, disconnected
(08:38):
from my children. Oh my heart breaks to think that.
Yes occasionally tells lies? Oh my god, yes, you know,
as business people do, we occasionally tell lies. We do
what the fuck? And then disconnected from anyway, just went
through maybe like fifteen behaviors and I went, you know what,
that's actually true. That's these things are true in me,
(09:01):
and I'm not proud of it. I'm shamed of it,
and they're not good. I want them gone. And the
great thing about Bihuascar, because it's such a visceral experience,
it's like I was sick each time I accept it,
Yes I am, ego, drimn, Yes I am. I did, yes, I'm.
It becomes so you can't go back to that behavior
because your body's going, no, that was not a good
(09:21):
behavior for you. We pursh it out. And the moment
I even stuff, oh, ego comes in and it's like
oh no, no, no, no, no no, because I'll feel
a bit nauseous. So it's a great way, yeah, great way.
And so then the second night I came back and
I said, all right, I'll sit, but I'm really nervous.
And so I sat the second night, drank the medicine.
(09:42):
And this time and they talk about the mother, right,
the mother, So the mother's spirit, the mother, grandmother. I
don't know who's the mother. I don't know. I just
go in like a bloody washing machine and anyway, guys there
and I was like very nervous, drank the medicine and
then it was like this female spirit appeared to me
and she went, oh hey, and I said, oh hello,
and remember like eyes closed completely, like I'm seeing things
(10:05):
but with my oss gums. And I said, oh, are
you the mother? And she said yeah, the mother? And
I said okay. I said, I'm nice to meet you,
but like, we can't do what we did last night please,
Like it was too much, Like can we do something else?
And she said yeah, sure, we can do something else.
And I said, oh, can it just be a bit
lighter and she goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do it.
And she said how do you want me to be?
(10:27):
And I said, oh, well, I don't know. I'm pretty
cool and funny. Can you be cool and funny? And
she goes, yeah, I'll be cool and funny. So let's
go and do some things together. Then she said to me,
I know, like as a child and a young person,
the thing that you loved most was all the fae,
the fairies, the dragons, the elves, all of that realm,
you know, that fantasy realm. Do you want to go there,
(10:48):
and I said, what do you mean, do you want
to go there? She says, do you want to go
into that realm? And I said, of course I do, yes,
and she goes, come with me. So we're journeying like
in this psychicalo journey and we get to this this
big white cathedral and she says to me, Okay, you
stay down here and you look, but you can't interact.
You don't speak, you don't touch anything. You just be here.
(11:09):
And so remembering this is as real as this physical world,
because I'm deep in the medicine now. And so I
look up and I hear this rush noise and income
these two big silver dragons flying right above me, like
majestic dragons. And I look up them, Oh my god, dragons,
(11:29):
and then it's like, oh, they're real. They're actually real,
Like of course they're in every culture and across the world,
but now I see that they're real, Like what this
is incredible? But I also realized I couldn't interact to them.
Their energy and their vibration was so much more powerful
and refined. I was just like this tiny, little nobody,
little human spirit at the bottom of the canthedral and anyone thought, whoa,
(11:52):
that is so cool. And then the next thing I know,
this little elf walked in the side and just came
and sat next to me, and I went, oh my god,
it's an elf, Like what how is how is this true? Anyway?
And then it was just a beautiful journey, and I
felt the medicine moving through me, healing, letting go of
(12:12):
everything that you know, i'd gone the night before. So
in medicine we will say say, once you get a
lot of stuff out, beautiful things can come in. And
so it was like I got a whole system uk rat. Anyway,
the next day, everyone was like, oh my god, how
to cat go like which she get annihilated again? And
I said, no, I didn't. I had the most profoundly
beautiful experience of my life, beyond anything I could have
(12:34):
ever imagined I experienced. And all the others you'd had
this beautiful journey the first night all got dusted up
the second night. Because what we say is like the
mother knows she's got you, like for two nights or
for seven days or whatever. She's got you on the retreat,
and she'll take you on a journey. And by the
time you get to the end of the journey, almost
without exception, it will be a profound transformation. It's just
(12:55):
some of the journeys might be like you're in the
washing machine, you're in the pits of hell, and others
like I wasn't second, you're having the most extraordinary experience
of your life. And the way I like to explain it,
because for some of the listeners it's like what dragons else?
That sounds nonsense, The way I explained as a professor
of behavioral science is that this, indeed could be just
(13:15):
my psyche. And we know the way psyche works, or
higher self or soul works, it's in mythology and symbolism.
So indeed, the dragon and the elf could be just
my mind, my soul presenting beautiful things to me that
I loved as a child. And so where I had
(13:38):
a whole lot cleaned out, then I was getting this
beautiful light, magical energy in which was important to me completely.
That is, we can explain that in a union way,
or I genuinely went to another realm where there are
dragons and help and to me, to me, it doesn't
matter which one is. That that was the experience and
(13:58):
the experience in my body, my soul, my mind, my
heart was so profoundly healing and cleansing that it changed
my life forever.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
We will be back with Kats soon where we talk
about the very dramatic ways that her plant medicine experiences
have changed her as a leader. If you're looking for
more tips to improve the way you work can live.
I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've
discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up
(14:30):
for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com.
Tell me what some of the main ways that it's
changed you as a leader would be.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
So one of the things in one of the other
medicines that I work with, which is called Buffo alvirius,
which is a five MEDMT. So that's the medicine of
the Sonora desert toad. It comes from glands that are
on the toad's neck and within ten seconds complete ego
dissolution and you're completely gone. We call it the oneness
medicine because you essentially become one with consciousness. And in
(15:08):
one of my wondeness and experiences, I saw when anyone
tells a lie or any thought is registered in the
oneness in the collective consciousness. And so when we go like, oh,
I've just got this really negative thought about that person,
but nobody knows because nobody's in my head, Like or
you know, here's a little lie to tell in business
that we need to tell because it'll keep the client happy.
(15:31):
All of this gets registered somewhere in what we'd say
is the fourth dimension, where there's no time, no space,
no matter. So it is somewhere. All our thoughts are somewhere,
and so if that's the case, they'll have an effect,
because everything has an effect in the universe and in energy.
So it's like, holy shit, Yeah, people need to be
(15:52):
truth telling, need to be seeking truth. So on average
a human, every human tells about seventy lies a day
of some sort. Maybe it's a bit of an exaggeration,
it's a bit of an underestimation, or it's just a
lie so somebody doesn't have to be difficult, or you
don't want to hurt someone. But when you're out of truth,
it's all just means you're out of alignment, and you're
out of alignment with the greater good essentially. And so
(16:14):
what I've learned is to come back into in all
times every day trying to be in full truth telling,
and it's really hard to do, particularly as a business person,
because we're actually trained not to be truthful most of
the time, you know, are we're going to tell our
investors all the bad things that are happening in the business. Now.
I'm not saying you need to go and actually just
(16:34):
tell everything, but to be in the most authentic way
and walk a path of true leadership, then I think
truth telling needs to be fundamental. So that's that's that
for me. The other ways I work with the medicine
is when I want to know, we write this is
about this in the book, which is like instead of like, ooh,
(16:57):
who am I? And what's my purpose? And I this
profound medicine experience once in Mexico with mushrooms, like the
top of San Jose del Pacifico, which is where mushrooms
were kind of like Maria Savina was a woman who
introduced magic mushrooms to the West and then she she
was actually persecuted as a result, had a very tragic life.
But I was at her place in her community, sitting
(17:19):
on the top of the mountain and took these mushrooms
with a Shalman up. There was very ceremonials. It was
great anyway, I got to look into my own mind.
So it was almost like these little spirits came down.
They said, let's have a look in your mind. Okay,
let's see what goes on in there. And I had
a look in there. I went, oh, oh my god,
that's so busy. Oh it's awful, like I have to
stay here. And they said, oh, yeah, that's what we
(17:41):
you know, that's what we parts of your conscious have
to sit and listen to all day. And they said
this like, oh, what's my purpose? Who am I? What's
my pat me? And they said, oh we do to
do here this lad l men me what's my anyway?
Which is a very Western way of thinking. Now I
have a beautiful, beautiful original sister who said to me, oh,
(18:02):
we don't think like that. We're not asking what's my purpose?
What's my path? Who am I? She said, we ask
what is needed of me? What is needed of me?
And so that profoundly changing one seeing in my own
mind with this obsession with ooh who am I? Important?
Am I? Specialment that needs to quiet and just ask?
(18:23):
All right, planet spirit kids, business customers, what is needed
of me, And that's been profoundly life changing for me
as a leader. Instead of like, Oh, I've got these
ideas and I'm going to do this, this, this, it's like, oh,
what's needed of me? And how can I truly be
in service?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Kat? It sounds absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I want to know for listeners, and a lot of
listeners are in Australia, but then there's you know, we're
listened to in many countries around the world. If someone
wants to take the first step on this journey, what
should they do next?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
So I think they should read, listen to podcasts, listen
to the Bigatus, so Sam Harris, Tim ferriss, Or Remarcus,
even Joe Rogan Oprah is now obsessed with psychedelics. Read
the book How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollin.
So just get really well educated. And then I think,
just put an intention, Just put an intention out into
the universe that you're curious about these medicines and how
(19:18):
they may help you. And I think that's great. And
then in the book Rapid Transformation is a guide to,
step by step how to do this responsibly and safely.
Given that in some country psychedelics illegal and it's also
not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Kat. I have loved this conversation. It's been so overdue.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Thank you so much for your generosity, for everything you
put out into the world. And just on a personal note,
thank you for being my friend and mentor over the years.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, an absolute pleasure, always and in all ways.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I kept thinking about the moment Kat said she stopped
asking what's my purpose and started asking what is needed
of me. It's such a powerful reframe, especially for anyone
driven to achieve or prove themselves. Next time you're wrestling
with a big decision, try that question. Instead of what
(20:12):
do I want? Ask what's needed of me?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Right now?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
If you enjoyed this conversation and you haven't listened to
the main episode I released with Kat, I highly recommend
jumping into that next. There is a link to that
in the show notes. If you like today's show, make
sure you get follow on your podcast app to be
alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
How I Work was recorded
Speaker 2 (20:36):
On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of
the Cool and Nation
And then it was I'm ego driven, I'm reputation, folks,
my identity is all I care about. I'm disconnected from
my kids. And it was just like Bang Bang mag.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Five years ago, doctor Katrina Wallace had iahuasca for the
first time, but instead of enlightenment, she met her shadow.
Seven hours of confronting ego control and the parts of
herself she'd spent years avoiding. That experience cracked something open,
(00:30):
not just personally but as a leader. And in this conversation,
Cat shares how plant medicine reshaped the way she thinks
about power, truth telling, and purpose, and how learning how
to let go fully can sometimes be the most transformative
decision you'll ever make. Oh and if you haven't listened
(00:50):
to my main interview with kat, go back and listen
to that one first. There's a link to that in
the show notes. And just a quick note before we
dive in this episode, nothing bill here is medical or
legal advice, and we're definitely not suggesting anyone try anything
that's illegal where they live. Think of this as an
open conversation, not a recommendation.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Okay, on with the chat.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber. In your book Rapid Transformation, your journey with
Psychedelics features really heavily, and I just I found it
(01:39):
absolutely fascinating to hear your experiences, which I think from
memory started about five years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Is that about right?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That's right?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah, what prompted you to move into this area?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So I'd been sort of walking let's call it a
shamanic path for about thirty years. I did some initial
training when I was in my late twenties. I would say,
I'm an animist, and an animist is someone who believes
that sort of nature is God, and there's there's spirits
and in all things, spirits and trees, spirits and rocks,
spirits and animals, et cetera. But because I had this
(02:12):
massive career, this big corporate career, and so you have
a listed company. As much as I wanted to go
and sit with plant medicine and something like Ayahuascar, I
felt it's probably not appropriate because I don't know if
I'm going to radically change, or I'm going to find
something in myself, or I'm going to find a new
vision and come back and say, hey, I don't want
to run the company anymore. And it was on just coincidentally,
(02:34):
the day that I sold my company in twenty twenty,
that afternoon happened to be the afternoon of my first
Ayahuscar ceremony.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Wow, tell me what that experience was like, that very
first experience.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah. So i'd been called to Ayahuascar for ten years
and we use this in the psychedelic realm, this calling.
It's like, oh, I'm curious about that. Oh, here's a
video that's just popped up. Oh, I've got a friend
who's just you know when it keeps coming. And so
for ten years, so I was putting it off, putting
it off, putting it off. But now I knew it
was time to sit. And what I knew about Aoascar
is that it's made as a brew in the Amazon jungle.
(03:12):
It's made from the Ayahuascar vine and the vine is
sort of mashed up and boiled up, and it is
a purgative, so it will be an inhibitor of the
enzyme that eats up DMT in your system. So humans
naturally create DMT in our system, like when we're born,
when we give birth, orgasm, and death at times when
(03:34):
there's a big release of DMT in the human self,
but we have enzymes that eat it up. So the
ayahuascar inhibits that enzyme and creates a purge, which is
the releasing of energy, which is also may come as
like a vomit. And then the second part of the
Ayahuascar brew is a plant called chakruna, and chakruna has
very high levels of DMT and its leaves, so Chakuna ayahuascar.
(03:58):
You boil it up together and for a couple of days.
There's a lot of prayer and ceremony that goes into
this very sacred brew, and they call it the Grandmother
Medicine or the Mother Medicine. It ends up being quite
a thick, dark brown, quite stringent thing to drink like.
It's quite a difficult taste, which I think is all
part of it. And so I went to this. I
(04:18):
went to this because we go, oh, I can get
addicted to hiauascar. I said, I don't think so, did
you not think you want to be drinking that very often?
That is really hard to get down? So I sold
the business is two o'clock in the afternoon five o'clock,
changed my clothes. Seven o'clock. I'm sitting in this ceremony
about to drink this medicine with ten other people that
(04:40):
I didn't know, with a guide that would call a
miestro if it's a male or a maestro, it's a female,
and really not knowing what I'm getting myself into. And
at the time I drink it, I start getting all
of these fears. It's like, oh, what am I doing here?
And I have to share a tent with some people
I don't know. That's weird. And maybe my director's trying
(05:03):
to call me because you know, we sold the company today.
Oh shit, you know again, I've selfishly taken time for
myself and not my kids and anyway, So I was
just in this like negative space and medicine hadn't even started.
And then my intention of going in was, hey, I
would finish this chapter of the tech business. Now I
wonder what a new vision is for me, and I'm
(05:24):
feeling a little bit blocked in knowing what's next for me.
So that was my intention. I'd like a vision and
I'd be blocked. So as we say, the medicine will
always deliver what you asked for. And so what I
learned was you can't get the vision without removing your
blockages first. So as the medicine started, it was like, oh,
(05:45):
I feel really sick, Like I feel really nauseous. And
then it was relentless seven hours. I'm ego driven, I'm
reputation focus, my identity is all they care about. I'm
money focused, I'm disconnected from my kids, I tell lies
at times, I'm a lousy friend. And it was just
like bang bang bang. And I describe it in the
(06:07):
book is Man. I was in the washing machine of hell.
And then when I think it couldn't get any worse,
it was like the floor dropped out and I was
in the dungeon of Hell. And then the floor dropped
out and I was a trapdoor of the dungeon of Hell.
It was awful. It was the most awful experience. So
essentially what I've done is I traveled in to the
shadow realm of myself. What are all the shadows I have?
(06:29):
What are all the darkness that I have now become
in this life that I'm living running a company, trying
to build this business. And it wasn't that I was
a terrible person in real life. He was a super
cool person in real life, but these were alive in
me and they were really uncomfortable. And the way Ayahuascar
works is once once you stop fighting, I'm like, oh no,
(06:49):
I'm not I'm not ego driven. You get sicker and
secrets and go, oh fuck I am ego driven, Like yeah, oh,
and then once you realize it, then it's like it
all out to a bucket, and we say, like Aiahuascar,
seven hours of Ayahuascar is like seven years of psychotherapy.
So it's literally you're removing that behavior, that energy from
(07:13):
your body as you purge it out. So it's not
like a vomit like you've drunk a bottle of vodka.
You've got gastick. It's like a oh, I want this
out of me, So out it comes and time and
time again. And so when I finished the ceremony, it
was like, man, that was the worst experience of my life.
That was horrendous. And I looked around and everyone was
(07:33):
smiling and they were bright, and you know, someone had
met their dead grandmother and other people had just been
filled with light and joy, and other people had had
this brilliant light show. And I was like oh, what's
wrong with me? I just had the worst experience, and
so I said, right, I'll never do this again. That
was bad, it almost killed me. Not going to do
it terrible.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
And then well what happened because you did do it again.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I didn't do it again the next night. So I
went to sleep and still miserable in the morning. I
went down and saw the female guy the next morning,
and I was crying and saying, oh, I can't do
this again, like this is so bad, like I hadn't
realized what a bad person I am. So yeah, I
can't do it. I won't live through another night, like
I don't want to do it, like I'm just so sad.
(08:16):
And she said, look, why don't you go and write down,
Just go and journal and see if what the medicine
showed you, if there's anything like that's you know, kind
of resonates with you. And I said, yeah, okay. So
I went away, very miserable and small and wrote, oh,
ego driven, Yeah, identity attached, Oh god shit, yeah, disconnected
(08:38):
from my children. Oh my heart breaks to think that.
Yes occasionally tells lies? Oh my god, yes, you know,
as business people do, we occasionally tell lies. We do
what the fuck? And then disconnected from anyway, just went
through maybe like fifteen behaviors and I went, you know what,
that's actually true. That's these things are true in me,
(09:01):
and I'm not proud of it. I'm shamed of it,
and they're not good. I want them gone. And the
great thing about Bihuascar, because it's such a visceral experience,
it's like I was sick each time I accept it,
Yes I am, ego, drimn, Yes I am. I did, yes, I'm.
It becomes so you can't go back to that behavior
because your body's going, no, that was not a good
(09:21):
behavior for you. We pursh it out. And the moment
I even stuff, oh, ego comes in and it's like
oh no, no, no, no, no no, because I'll feel
a bit nauseous. So it's a great way, yeah, great way.
And so then the second night I came back and
I said, all right, I'll sit, but I'm really nervous.
And so I sat the second night, drank the medicine.
(09:42):
And this time and they talk about the mother, right,
the mother, So the mother's spirit, the mother, grandmother. I
don't know who's the mother. I don't know. I just
go in like a bloody washing machine and anyway, guys there
and I was like very nervous, drank the medicine and
then it was like this female spirit appeared to me
and she went, oh hey, and I said, oh hello,
and remember like eyes closed completely, like I'm seeing things
(10:05):
but with my oss gums. And I said, oh, are
you the mother? And she said yeah, the mother? And
I said okay. I said, I'm nice to meet you,
but like, we can't do what we did last night please,
Like it was too much, Like can we do something else?
And she said yeah, sure, we can do something else.
And I said, oh, can it just be a bit
lighter and she goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do it.
And she said how do you want me to be?
(10:27):
And I said, oh, well, I don't know. I'm pretty
cool and funny. Can you be cool and funny? And
she goes, yeah, I'll be cool and funny. So let's
go and do some things together. Then she said to me,
I know, like as a child and a young person,
the thing that you loved most was all the fae,
the fairies, the dragons, the elves, all of that realm,
you know, that fantasy realm. Do you want to go there,
(10:48):
and I said, what do you mean, do you want
to go there? She says, do you want to go
into that realm? And I said, of course I do, yes,
and she goes, come with me. So we're journeying like
in this psychicalo journey and we get to this this
big white cathedral and she says to me, Okay, you
stay down here and you look, but you can't interact.
You don't speak, you don't touch anything. You just be here.
(11:09):
And so remembering this is as real as this physical world,
because I'm deep in the medicine now. And so I
look up and I hear this rush noise and income
these two big silver dragons flying right above me, like
majestic dragons. And I look up them, Oh my god, dragons,
(11:29):
and then it's like, oh, they're real. They're actually real,
Like of course they're in every culture and across the world,
but now I see that they're real, Like what this
is incredible? But I also realized I couldn't interact to them.
Their energy and their vibration was so much more powerful
and refined. I was just like this tiny, little nobody,
little human spirit at the bottom of the canthedral and anyone thought, whoa,
(11:52):
that is so cool. And then the next thing I know,
this little elf walked in the side and just came
and sat next to me, and I went, oh my god,
it's an elf, Like what how is how is this true? Anyway?
And then it was just a beautiful journey, and I
felt the medicine moving through me, healing, letting go of
(12:12):
everything that you know, i'd gone the night before. So
in medicine we will say say, once you get a
lot of stuff out, beautiful things can come in. And
so it was like I got a whole system uk rat. Anyway,
the next day, everyone was like, oh my god, how
to cat go like which she get annihilated again? And
I said, no, I didn't. I had the most profoundly
beautiful experience of my life, beyond anything I could have
(12:34):
ever imagined I experienced. And all the others you'd had
this beautiful journey the first night all got dusted up
the second night. Because what we say is like the
mother knows she's got you, like for two nights or
for seven days or whatever. She's got you on the retreat,
and she'll take you on a journey. And by the
time you get to the end of the journey, almost
without exception, it will be a profound transformation. It's just
(12:55):
some of the journeys might be like you're in the
washing machine, you're in the pits of hell, and others
like I wasn't second, you're having the most extraordinary experience
of your life. And the way I like to explain it,
because for some of the listeners it's like what dragons else?
That sounds nonsense, The way I explained as a professor
of behavioral science is that this, indeed could be just
(13:15):
my psyche. And we know the way psyche works, or
higher self or soul works, it's in mythology and symbolism.
So indeed, the dragon and the elf could be just
my mind, my soul presenting beautiful things to me that
I loved as a child. And so where I had
(13:38):
a whole lot cleaned out, then I was getting this
beautiful light, magical energy in which was important to me completely.
That is, we can explain that in a union way,
or I genuinely went to another realm where there are
dragons and help and to me, to me, it doesn't
matter which one is. That that was the experience and
(13:58):
the experience in my body, my soul, my mind, my
heart was so profoundly healing and cleansing that it changed
my life forever.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
We will be back with Kats soon where we talk
about the very dramatic ways that her plant medicine experiences
have changed her as a leader. If you're looking for
more tips to improve the way you work can live.
I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've
discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up
(14:30):
for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com.
Tell me what some of the main ways that it's
changed you as a leader would be.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
So one of the things in one of the other
medicines that I work with, which is called Buffo alvirius,
which is a five MEDMT. So that's the medicine of
the Sonora desert toad. It comes from glands that are
on the toad's neck and within ten seconds complete ego
dissolution and you're completely gone. We call it the oneness
medicine because you essentially become one with consciousness. And in
(15:08):
one of my wondeness and experiences, I saw when anyone
tells a lie or any thought is registered in the
oneness in the collective consciousness. And so when we go like, oh,
I've just got this really negative thought about that person,
but nobody knows because nobody's in my head, Like or
you know, here's a little lie to tell in business
that we need to tell because it'll keep the client happy.
(15:31):
All of this gets registered somewhere in what we'd say
is the fourth dimension, where there's no time, no space,
no matter. So it is somewhere. All our thoughts are somewhere,
and so if that's the case, they'll have an effect,
because everything has an effect in the universe and in energy.
So it's like, holy shit, Yeah, people need to be
(15:52):
truth telling, need to be seeking truth. So on average
a human, every human tells about seventy lies a day
of some sort. Maybe it's a bit of an exaggeration,
it's a bit of an underestimation, or it's just a
lie so somebody doesn't have to be difficult, or you
don't want to hurt someone. But when you're out of truth,
it's all just means you're out of alignment, and you're
out of alignment with the greater good essentially. And so
(16:14):
what I've learned is to come back into in all
times every day trying to be in full truth telling,
and it's really hard to do, particularly as a business person,
because we're actually trained not to be truthful most of
the time, you know, are we're going to tell our
investors all the bad things that are happening in the business. Now.
I'm not saying you need to go and actually just
(16:34):
tell everything, but to be in the most authentic way
and walk a path of true leadership, then I think
truth telling needs to be fundamental. So that's that's that
for me. The other ways I work with the medicine
is when I want to know, we write this is
about this in the book, which is like instead of like, ooh,
(16:57):
who am I? And what's my purpose? And I this
profound medicine experience once in Mexico with mushrooms, like the
top of San Jose del Pacifico, which is where mushrooms
were kind of like Maria Savina was a woman who
introduced magic mushrooms to the West and then she she
was actually persecuted as a result, had a very tragic life.
But I was at her place in her community, sitting
(17:19):
on the top of the mountain and took these mushrooms
with a Shalman up. There was very ceremonials. It was
great anyway, I got to look into my own mind.
So it was almost like these little spirits came down.
They said, let's have a look in your mind. Okay,
let's see what goes on in there. And I had
a look in there. I went, oh, oh my god,
that's so busy. Oh it's awful, like I have to
stay here. And they said, oh, yeah, that's what we
(17:41):
you know, that's what we parts of your conscious have
to sit and listen to all day. And they said
this like, oh, what's my purpose? Who am I? What's
my pat me? And they said, oh we do to
do here this lad l men me what's my anyway?
Which is a very Western way of thinking. Now I
have a beautiful, beautiful original sister who said to me, oh,
(18:02):
we don't think like that. We're not asking what's my purpose?
What's my path? Who am I? She said, we ask
what is needed of me? What is needed of me?
And so that profoundly changing one seeing in my own
mind with this obsession with ooh who am I? Important?
Am I? Specialment that needs to quiet and just ask?
(18:23):
All right, planet spirit kids, business customers, what is needed
of me, And that's been profoundly life changing for me
as a leader. Instead of like, Oh, I've got these
ideas and I'm going to do this, this, this, it's like, oh,
what's needed of me? And how can I truly be
in service?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Kat? It sounds absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I want to know for listeners, and a lot of
listeners are in Australia, but then there's you know, we're
listened to in many countries around the world. If someone
wants to take the first step on this journey, what
should they do next?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
So I think they should read, listen to podcasts, listen
to the Bigatus, so Sam Harris, Tim ferriss, Or Remarcus,
even Joe Rogan Oprah is now obsessed with psychedelics. Read
the book How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollin.
So just get really well educated. And then I think,
just put an intention, Just put an intention out into
the universe that you're curious about these medicines and how
(19:18):
they may help you. And I think that's great. And
then in the book Rapid Transformation is a guide to,
step by step how to do this responsibly and safely.
Given that in some country psychedelics illegal and it's also
not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Kat. I have loved this conversation. It's been so overdue.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Thank you so much for your generosity, for everything you
put out into the world. And just on a personal note,
thank you for being my friend and mentor over the years.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, an absolute pleasure, always and in all ways.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I kept thinking about the moment Kat said she stopped
asking what's my purpose and started asking what is needed
of me. It's such a powerful reframe, especially for anyone
driven to achieve or prove themselves. Next time you're wrestling
with a big decision, try that question. Instead of what
(20:12):
do I want? Ask what's needed of me?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Right now?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
If you enjoyed this conversation and you haven't listened to
the main episode I released with Kat, I highly recommend
jumping into that next. There is a link to that
in the show notes. If you like today's show, make
sure you get follow on your podcast app to be
alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
How I Work was recorded
Speaker 2 (20:36):
On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of
the Cool and Nation
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